Two Types of Crazy

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Sep 26, 2009 at 09:30


On Wednesday, Chris wrote a diary, "Conspiracy Theories", picking up on a PPP poll:

According to PPP, 35% of the country thinks either that President Obama was not born in America (23%), and / or that George W. Bush had something to do with the 9/11 attacks (14%).  My favorite line in their press release is "a very troubled 2% of the population buys into both of those conspiracy theories." Ha!

On the bipartisan front, 25% of Democrats think that Bush was involved in the 9/11 attacks, while 42% of Republicans think that Obama was not born in the United States.

This is the first of two diaries spinning off of that poll, and issues it's raising about the nature of political narratives and worldviews. In this diary, I want to stress some important differences between the two types of "fringe" thinking that are being conflated here.  First off, Chris makes a good point that a better comparison might well be the belief that the 2004 election was stolen.  Still, the pollsters are correct to note that both beliefs represent profound distrust of political leadership, and thus there's a legitimate basis for comparison, even though the comparison is not as exact as the alternative Chris proposes.  My intention in this diary is to underscore deeper ways in which the two beliefs differ from one another, and should not be facily equated with one another.

But before doing so, I want to make it quite clear that I am not offering an apologia for the 9/11 Truthers, or any other form of leftwing conspiracy theories.  I'm an implacable foe of conspiracism--the mindset behind conspiracy theories--for the simply reason that it gets things fundamentally wrong, and stands in the way clear understanding and effective action.  Conspiracism originates from the political right, and when  taken up by the political left it inevitably distorts thinking in ways that are both subtle and gross.

That doesn't mean that think conspiracies don't exist--there are conspiracies all over the place.  But conspiracism as a mindset is something quite different from the simple recognition that conspiracies exist.  Rather, it is an orientation that assumes a basically benign social order, facing destruction at the hands of a powerful outside force that deceptively seeks to insinuate itself into a position of total control.  This is its rightwing core.  This view fundamentally misunderstands the roles that conspiracies play in history and politics, obscuring the larger social and cultural contexts in which they occur.  As a result, even when conspiracists are talking about real conspiracies, the result is reminiscent of racist LA cop Mark Furman investigating OJ Simpson--they're framing a guilty man, and making the truth more difficult to make out, not less so.

Paul Rosenberg :: Two Types of Crazy
A recent study from Political Research Associates, "Toxic to Democracy: Conspiracy Theories, Demonization, & Scapegoating" goes into considerable detail about the historical role and function of conspiracism in American history, including the relatively recent migration of conspiracist thinking from right to left.  The light it shines on how leftwing conspiracism distorts our understanding and political outlook is invaluable, and nothing in this diary is meant to argue otherwise. Nonetheless, there are considerable differences between leftwing and rightwing conspiracism--especially in the way they appeal to wider audiences beyond the hard core of "true believers".  And it precisely these wider audiences who are registered by polls, such as the one that Chris pointed out.

First, I want to echo Chris in noting that the rightwing beliefs are far more widespread.  Not only is it the case that 42% of Republicans think that Obama wasn't born in the US, compared to 25% of Democrats think that Bush was involved in the 9/11 attacks, but if one adds in those who aren't sure, a majority of Republicans doubt that Obama is legally qualified to be President.   Second, the Birther belief is easily refuted, and has been openly refuted on the internet for well over a year now.

In contrast, the idea that Bush was somehow involved planning or allowing 9/11 to occur has never been seriously investigated, much less refuted, much less could it be simply refuted by a few documents posted on the internet.  This does nothing to prove that the claim is true--it merely indicates that similarly unambiguous evidence does not exist.

As a consequence, one cannot claim that the two belief systems are equivalent, especially for broader low-information audiences. A casual Republican can readily find Obama's birth certificate online, and almost as easily find his birth announcements from two Hawaiian newspapers.  But a casual Democrat inquiring about 9/11 can find nothing similarly clear-cut.  Indeed, they may well find something like this:

Here are some of the unbelievable, yet widely reported, examples of dishonesty from members of the Bush Administration with regard to the warnings that they say NEVER came.  Check these claims versus the warnings posted on this web site!
  • September 14, 2001 - FBI Director Robert Mueller claims: "If we had understood [that hijackers trained in the United States to be pilots] we would have - perhaps we could have averted this."  Yet, the FBI did, on many occasions, learn just this!

  • September 16, 2001 - President Bush claims: "Never in anybody's thought processes ... about how to protect America did we ever think that the evil doers would fly not one but four commercial aircraft into precious US targets ... never."  Yet, NORAD, the Pentagon, and the FAA did learn about this and even made preparations for it!

  • September 17, 2001 - FBI Director Robert Mueller claims: "There were no warning signs that I'm aware of that would indicate this type of operation in the country."  This is simply false!

  • September 17, 2001 - NORAD gave briefing to White House regarding fighter response times on 9/11.  Its time line is released the next day and contains numerous errors regarding what it did on 9/11 to protect the country.

  • February 6, 2002 - CIA Director George Tenet says "We are proud of [our record on 9/11]" and claims that the 9/11 plot was only "in the heads of three or four people."  Yet, the evidence shows many, many people knew of the plot!

  • February 6, 2002 - FBI Director Robert Mueller claims: "There was nothing the agency could have done to anticipate and prevent the [9/11] attacks."  Yet, the evidence suggests the FBI could have prevented the attacks simply by sharing the news of the arrest of Zacarias Moussaoui with other agencies and the American people!

    ....

  • May 16, 2002 - National Security Advisor Condoleeza Rice claims: "I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would take an airplane and slam it into the World Trade Center, take another one and slam it into the Pentagon, that they would try to use an airplane as a missile."  She also said that "even in retrospect there was nothing to suggest that."  Yet, a look at the evidence paints such a clear picture of what was coming that it is embarrassing we missed it!

    ....

  • April 13, 2004 - President Bush says: "We knew he [UBL] had designs on us.  We knew he hated us.  But there was nobody in our government, and I don't think the previous government, that could envision flying airplanes into buildings on such a massive scale."  If President Bush doesn't know that this had been envisioned and even planned for, isn't this proof he was out of touch with the members of his intelligence agencies who had the information?

There is a little bit more to this story, isn't there?  We knew they wanted to attack us, how they wanted to attack us, and even that they were going to attack us at any minute.  But, no one is admitting to that.  I wonder why???

My claim is not that the author of this website is correct, but that the information he presents has never been satisfactorily accounted for.  I believe it could have been accounted for, had the Democrats pushed for a credible, full-fledged investigation. (More on this at the end of this diary) But they did not.  Their underlying rationale was that they did not want to be seen as partisan, as divisive, and as working to delegitimize the Republican Administration.  In adopting this rationale, they were, essentially, accepting the conservative/GOP framework that forbids holding conservative elites responsible for their actions.  But rather than putting questions to rest, it only serves to add further questions--not least the question of how much Democratic elties are also to blame.

Low information voters, and political observers more generally, are most likely to follow political activities only sporadically and fragmentarily.  They will, necessarily, tend to view politics through the lens of much more familiar sorts of activities and narratives.  So when they see secrets being hidden, there is a natural tendency to suspect hidden motives as well--which in turn means there may be other, more sinister things they are lying about. Lying about whereabouts could mean lying about committing a murder, unless there's a more plausible explanation for the more obvious lie.

Dozens of crime shows on tv constantly reinforce this heuristic assumption--if you don't know why someone is lying to you about their alibi, you are best off assuming that it's because they're guilty of the murder.  It may not be true--and scores of episodes of Law and Order and its spin-offs hinge on it not being true--but it's a good working hypothesis, nonetheless.  It is not crazy, even if its not always right.

This is hardly the only example, but it's typical of how more familiar experiences (firsthand or not) will tend to color lass familiar ones.  And if one does not follow politics closely, then it's hardly surprising that these sorts of heuristics would color how people interpret the fragmented information they do get.  Given that the fragments listed above are so damning, it's hard to argue that casual observers are crazy.  They are just acting the way that casual observers always act.  We might very will wish that they weren't casual observers (I certainly do), but since they are, we're being just as intellectually lazy as they are when we write them off as "crazy."

Indeed, we're being lazier, since understanding politics is supposedly a big part of our agenda, but not theirs.  If they're spending more time and energy worrying about how their kids are doing in school, or how they're going to pay the mortgage, then calling them intellectually lazy is probably a bum rap.  But our laziness in mis-representing them?  Not so much.

In short, my argument is that hard-core "9-11 Truthers" may well be considered crazy in a manner similar to that of the hard-core Birthers.  But the same cannot be said about the broader passive population picked up in general population polls.  The appearance of mass craziness on the Democratic side is a function of normal cognitive processes on the one hand, interacting with the abandonment of responsible opposition by Democratic elites, and rush of hard-core "9/11 Truthers" to fill the resulting vacuum.  Let me repeat--this is an explanation, not an excuse.  But as an explanation, it says something about where the bulk of the blame should lie--and it's not with those who casually conclude that Bush was guilty of something that hasn't yet been revealed.  In fact, they are 100% correct.  They are only wrong in their intuition about what that something is.

And here we now return to the parenthetical promise made above to discuss how the questions raised by all the BuschCo lies could have been answered.  My explanation for the BushCo lies is three-fold:

(1) Sheer incompetence.  After 8 years of "heckuva job, Brownie" governance, it's impossible to overstate how utterly incompetent this crew is, for a wide variety of reasons.

(2) Clinton hatred.  The degree to which Clinton Administration warnings were purposely ignored was staggering, and clearly played an enormous role in systematically ignoring warnings--meaning not just ignoring them on a retail level, but shutting out virtually all warnings from people such as Richard Clarke.

(3) Ideological blindness to the terrorist threat.  This took the form of a deep-seated quasi-conspiracist mindset fully articulated by PNAC's neo-conservatives, but much more broadly shared, which simply refused to believe that a rag-tag group like Al Qaeda could pose any sort of significant threat.  Indeed, going back to the early Reagan Administration, conservatives had loudly insisted that international terrorism was a Soviet creation, and thus that all terrorism was state-sponsored terrorism.  This hearkens back to the roots of modern conspiracist thinking, which blamed the French Revolution on a small handful of elite deceivers, and links up with the BushCo insistence that Iraq had to be to blame for 9/11, even if there were absolutely no evidence to prove that it was.

Ironically and/or instructively, the source cited above listing Bush Administristration lies about 9/11 forewarding also advances the notion that a government sponsor must have been involved.  In fact, there is good reason to investigate both Pakistan and Saudi Arabia for their roles in furthering the development of alQaeda--as, indeed, America's own role has remained largely under-examined.  But that's a far cry from insisting that either of them must have been operationally involved in 9/11.

In the executive summary of Toxic to Democracy it states:

The conspiracist narrative is built upon four key elements, which Berlet calls "tools of fear": 1) Dualism; 2) Scapegoating; 3) Demonization; and 4) Apocalyptic Aggression.

Dualism is an overarching theme or "metaframe" in which people see the world as divided into forces of good and evil. Scapegoating is a process by which a person or group of people are wrongfully stereotyped as sharing negative traits and are singled out for blame for causing societal problems, while the primary source of the problems is overlooked or absolved of blame. Demonization, a process through which people target individuals or groups as the embodiment of evil, facilitates scapegoating. Even the most sincere and well-intentioned conspiracy theorists contribute to dangerous social dynamics of demonization and scapegoating. Apocalypticism, also a metaframe, involves the expectation that dramatic events are about to unfold during which a confrontation between good and evil will change the world forever and reveal hidden truths. Apocalyptic Aggression occurs when scapegoats are targeted as enemies of the "common good," and this can lead to discrimination and violent acts.

What's called for in understanding 9/11--including any possible roles of various government entitites--is precisely the oppose of all the above--a refined understanding of complex and contradictory motives, aims and actions and the social-political contexts that shape them, which simultaneously undermines dualism, scapegoating and demonization, without which apocalypticism is also impossible.


Tags: , , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
Two Types of Crazy | 26 comments
Only one kind of crazy, but it comes in a wide range of sizes and colors (4.00 / 5)
If people in the government (who should know better) lie to us consistently, about everything, even when the truth would be no impediment to their aims; if they do their utmost to convince us that a lie is functionally equivalent to the truth if it gets us (the us is alway implied) where we want to go, why should we complain?

Well.... In any particular instance, we may not know what the truth is, but we always know that they're lying, and we know it in the same way that we know that a used-car salesman is lying. Eventually -- and it doesn't take very long -- nobody trusts anybody, and with the available media restricted to some version of Pravda, or Izvestia, we find ourselves speculating about what the truth might look like if only we knew what it was.

Some people do this better than others. Practically speaking, the smaller the group in which our reality-testing takes place, the crazier it's likely to be, and as a corollary, the more fragmented the larger society is likely to be. This isn't rocket science.

In the short term, such a devolution suits the powerful quite well. Since they know things which they've prevented us from knowing, they can act to their own advantage, while the rest of us mill around like sheep. In the long term, of course, this is a self-congratulatory illusion. Governments, and even the minority centers of power within them, are large and complex enterprises, and the capacity of human beings to delude themselves while they're deluding others has been so-well documented as to be irrefutable.

This is essentially what Yeats meant when he observed that the centre cannot hold. If you aren't worried that his rough beast is also on its way, you haven't been paying attention.


You're right, (0.00 / 0)
as usual. I knew conspiracy theorists were frustrating, but I couldn't put my finger on why, exactly.

Thanks.

Montani semper liberi


These four elements of conspiracist narratives (0.00 / 0)
really brings home what is truly anti-progressive about conspiracy theories (so defined.) Very helpful.

What's more, I think it shows that this sort of thinking is not that different than more mainstream thinking - these elements are also a part of neoliberalism, for example, the elite response to Iran or terrorism more generally, or crime or the economy.  

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.


Agreed (4.00 / 1)
One can think of of the essence of the conspiracist mindset as a transference of fairly typical thinking about other enemy countries & their people to groups within our own society.

There may be a bit more to it than that, but it captures quite a bit of what's going on.  Which in turn shows how crude the thinking of national elites really is.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Well, conspiracy theories are ultimately a perverse form of authority (4.00 / 3)
worship, no? As if the means to personal action were always kept of reach by omnipotent powers. We're all helpless to resist, so why should we bother? Conspiracy theories breed passivity and inaction even though the theorists are usually able to convince themselves that they are aggressively engaged.    

[ Parent ]
What happens to a person who lies and gets away with it? (0.00 / 0)
They are apt to do it again and again until it becomes part of their "character" -- think John Edwards.

For whatever reason, adult life is one interminable litany of lies, some times referred to as "spin" or "public relations". What good does it do to lie?

It paralyzes opponents because they have not the surety of footing for their actions. It forces groups to spend a lot of energy eliminating noise from the communication systems that unite them, tiring them out (like we are doing now). It creates group cohesion amongst the liars, like with the right wing in general.

Consider the conspiracy over the death of Pat Tillman. Pat Tillman was killed by his own men, either accidentally, intentionally, or semi-consciously out of jealousy and the feeling that he wasn't a "team player".

Whatever the motive force behind his shooting, the parties involved knew that it was better for them if the world thought he was killed by "the enemy" (Otherwise the world might realize that they themselves were the enemies of justice and civilization on par with the Taliban, which they are.)

They had to work together to maintain the lie, because physical investigation would contradict their story. It involved tampering with evidence (burning his equipment), and threats to adherents to truth who weren't "team players", and it stretched far up the chain of command past Gen McCrystal to the White House and beyond to the formal/informal brotherhood of neocons attempting to enslave us.

Even when it became clear that UCMJ was violated (tampering with evidence and intimidation) no one was punished. No lying-criminal officer had to cease drawing a retirement check. In fact, they were promoted because they could be trusted by the bigger liars above them.

Endless backfilling was done to down play the cover up.

I have seen this many times in my own days in Iraq. People getting wrongfully killed by US soldiers, then the "team" concocting a plausible story to cover it up. It became so bad that we even joked about it (we could kill who ever we wanted and say "he had a weapon" and if someone investigated and found no weapon we could always say his "fellow insurgent" took it from the scene.")

And yet we still debate about the banality of evil!

Why, Paul?

Why are people loath to admit deception, if not down right evil, into their world view?

Edmund Burke nailed it: hierarchy is violence, but we can beautify it with illusions, rituals, and etiquette.

It's not polite to say that the men armed with sticks need to be considered outlaws.

That's like two gorillas making eye-contact: it has to involve backing down or coming to blows.

Usually the weaker party backs down, or at least the weakest willed.

So the demurring about conspiracy (even when it happens all around us at every level) is just part of our monkey nature: it is our way of casting down our eyes so as not to provoke a fight which we doubt we can win.

Thank God they didn't think that way in 1775 and 1789! Not every conspiracy theory is true, but a lot of them are, and with power, one needs to consider them guilty before proven innocent.


There's a conspiracy (4.00 / 2)
theory that Tillman was fragged? That's the first time I've heard that one.

As for lying and Bush and 9/11, Paul's explanation parallels my own. I would just add regarding all the lies:

1. That's just what they always did, instinctively.

2. They were stupid enough that they really thought they'd get away with it, that nobody would find out about all the warnings and missed communications (and lack of communication) they had, OR

they were so stupid and disorganized that at first they really forgot about all the warnings and red flags.

3. They had such a sense of entitlement that they sincerely felt they hadn't screwed up, that they were not to blame, so they had every right to lie, in self-defense as it were.

Clearly these types could never consider themselves wrong or feel remorse over any action, or in the light of any principle. "Sociopathy" seems too mild a word, while "psychopath" is probably not technically correct.

I still use it sometimes, though.

9/11 happened the same way Katrina happened.

http://attempter.wordpress.com


[ Parent ]
Reagan (4.00 / 1)
Reagan just made stuff up as he went along.  In a way he was acting the part of a President just like he acted the part of the Gipper.  Ad libbed when he forgot his lines.

With some people it goes beyond lies and truth.  They have no truth, just what is convenient.  The best-selling psychologist Scott Peck wrote a book called "People of the Lie."  By his estimation IIRC maybe 10% of the population is completely scarily beyond a truth basis and just says and does whatever is convenient.  Some are completely disfunctional but many have "responsible" high ranking positions.  It reaches both the job and personal life.

The Wall Streeters and the Milton Friedmanites and the Broderites all fit into this category, at least the leadership.  People of the Lie.  Well, that's my guess.  No doctor examines them.


[ Parent ]
Sure There's Evil (4.00 / 4)
But there's a lot more shades of gray than there is pure black.  Look at the case that you yourself cite, and look at how you describe it:

Consider the conspiracy over the death of Pat Tillman. Pat Tillman was killed by his own men, either accidentally, intentionally, or semi-consciously out of jealousy and the feeling that he wasn't a "team player".

There was no one big evil there.  There was a lot of lessers ones all adding up.

The conspiracist ain't happy unless it's all one big evil.  And that's the difference between that mindset and the mindset of the true investigator out to find out the truth.

Pure evil exists.  There are sociopaths out there.  But there's far more evil done by aggregating millions of shades of gray.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
conspiracy theories in general (0.00 / 0)
Not counting the concocted ravings of the loony radical right, that does invent things to rant about. The ones I find logical and believable are the ones where the normal procedure in crime investigation is deliberatly avoided. 9/11 is a prime example. At first the administration wanted to just skip ANY investigation, such as routinely happens in all aircraft accidents and auto accidents. Then a high level one where Bush refused to testify under oath and unless the big Dick held his hand, and transcript not for public release. Followed by numerous pertinant questions that were not asked but were publically circulated. The final outcome askes us to believe the OFFICIAL conspiracy theory without answering the many relevent questions...... The unanswered suspicion that real investigation would answer natuarly morfs into theories that (logically?) deduce a possible answer. None of this would happen if the powers that be did not keep this process secret. Smoke-fire etc.

Government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob..... FDR

What They're Hiding (4.00 / 2)
IMHO, is the 9/11 was blowback--the real cost of empire, being taken out of the hide of American civilians. This is far too destabilizing a conversation to be having.  So they shut everything down to a bare-bones investigation, more likely to bore than anything else.

Compared to that discussion, they'll take conspiracy theories any day of the week & twice on Sundays.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
late reply-sorry (0.00 / 0)
From this comment I take it that it is your theory that a conspiracy regarding the events of 9/11 exists and is entirely made up to just hide the reason for the attacks. And your theory does not counterdict the official theory regarding the perps. I'll accept that your conspiracy theory may be true because it is just as plausable as some others, and not many believed "they hate us for our freedoms" line. However it does not answer all the remaining credible questions.

Government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob..... FDR

[ Parent ]
WTF? (0.00 / 0)
Where the heck do you get a conspiracy theory out of what I wrote?

There is collusion to prevent any sort of serious investigation.  But when does a bureaucracy ever not do that, unless there's serious outside pressure?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
from my anchient Websters (0.00 / 0)
Collude: To play into the hands of each other; to have a secret share in a scheme; to conspire in a fraud; to act in concert....Conspiracy: A combination of men for evil purposes; an agreement between two or more persons to commit some crime in concert; a plot....Syn.-combination; plot; cabal; collusion; connivance....."collusion to prevent any sort of serious investigation" IS a conspirancy theory. It just does not cover the credible remaining questions, and in itself adds doubt to the official (unbelievable) conspirancy theory.

Government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob..... FDR

[ Parent ]
I'll take Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed over Chip Berlet, anyday (0.00 / 0)
Here ya go, Paul:

9/11 "Conspiracies" and the Defactualisation of Analysis
How Ideologues on the Left and Right Theorise Vacuously to Support Baseless Supposition

A Reply to ZNet's 'Conspiracy Theory?' Section

The sections are:

I. Automatic Dismissal of a Legitimate Line of Inquiry

II. The "Incompetence Theory" of the 9/11 Intelligence Failure

III. David Corn and the Magic All-Explanatory "Incompetence Theory"

IV. Michael Albert Knows What Bush Knew

V. Misconstruing the Anthrax Case

VI. The Institutional Pattern of Provocation for War

VII. The Irrationality of Attempts to Delegitimise 9/11 Inquiry

VIII. Whitewashing the Israeli Mossad

IX. Whitewashing Pearl Harbour

X. Whitewashing the 9/11 Intelligence Failure

XI. Missing the Point

BTW, while I haven't looked into it much, and surely wish that somebody less "out there" had reported it, the Larouche organization reported this summer that they have identified Saudi handlers of 2 of the hijackers in San Diego.

If the Larouches are correct about this factoid, then your claim

But that's a far cry from insisting that either of them must have been operationally involved in 9/11.
is clearly off base. Specifically:

Early this year, the National Archives released documents from the files of the 9/11 Commission, which were previously classified. Three of those documents, recently obtained by EIR, provide the "smoking gun," proving the central role of Saudi intelligence, and the critical support role of British intelligence in the preparation, execution, and coverup of 9/11. The most significant of the documents, still partly classified, is a "Memorandum for the Record," summarizing an April 23, 2004 interview with a Southern California-based FBI informant, who rented out a room in his home to two of the 9/11 hijackers, during 2000. Although the memorandum redacted the informant's name, other public sources have identified the man as Abdussattar Shaikh. His FBI handler has also been publicly named as Steven Butler.
.
.
Shaikh's candid description of al-Bayoumi as a Saudi intelligence agent, in regular contact with one of the 9/11 hijackers, is stunning in its own right. The fact that Shaikh was an FBI informant, who, according to several U.S. intelligence sources, regularly received payments from the Bureau to keep tabs on the Muslim community in the San Diego area, and hosted two of the hijackers, is equally stunning. But the full extent of the al-Bayoumi dossier, as known to the FBI and other U.S. government agencies, goes well beyond the surface scandal.

Al-Bayoumi was far more than a "frequent visitor" to Shaikh's home, while al-Hazmi was living there. The essential facts are as follows.
.
.
But, al-Bayoumi was also, undisputedly, an agent of Saudi intelligence!

Fortunately, we have a cracker jack FBI and CIA that we can trust to make sure that such things, if they haven't already been fully investigated, will soon be, to everybody's satisfaction. Right, Paul? Oh, there may be a slight delay as Holder puts his so-far secret plan into action to prosecute American war criminals, up to and including former President Bush, but we just know that the FBI and CIA are going to do what they're supposed to do, just as soon as they can. Right, Paul?

May I suggest that we observe the awesome, self-correcting capacity of the US government (not to mention that most fearsome of watchdogs- the American media) at work (from which we can impute their capacity and willingness to deal with anything 911 related) by observing them swinging into action to deal with the claims of one Sibel Edmonds? You know, Sibel Edmonds, who recently managed to circumvent gag orders by repeating some of her claims of HIGH LEVEL TREASON - AS HIGH AS SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE HASTERT - under oath. She is now open to charges of perjury, should she be guilty of having repeated lies, under oath. (Sibel Edmonds is founder of  founder of the National Security Whistleblower's Coalition )

One way to fight "conspiracism" is for our cracker jack CIA and FBI to appeal to Holder (or whoever, I'm not a lawyer and actually don't know who, exactly, you appeal to) to prosecute Sibel Edmonds for perjury, if they really don't believe her. Indeed, as she's now named Jan Schakowsky(though after her deposition; i.e., not under oath) as the lawmaker who was "hooked" by a Turkish asset, in a lesbian tryst, shouldn't the Democrats, also, be urging that Sibel Edmonds 'perjury' be dealth with?

We can see from the following, that Schakowsky is not too happy with the Sibel Edmonds "conspiracy" mongering:

Edmonds quickly rebutted the response in kind, presenting additional details, noting that she has been "reporting intercepted communication of targeted operatives; more or less verbatim," asking a number of pointed direct questions to the Congresswoman, and challenging her to a joint polygraph exam.

Rather than responding to those questions, Schakowsky's office issued another short formal statement, describing Edmonds' allegations as "fairytales," "the stuff of science-fiction and absurd conspiracy theory; absent of any factual basis. Period."

Tell me, Paul, can we expect Schakowsky either to take up Sibel Edmonds offer for a joint polygraph exam, or even just to send a not-so-friendly note to Holder asking him to please prosecute a lying perjurer who, besides her other sins, has unjustly smeared Schakowsky and is encouraging (gasp!) conspiracism amongst the population, both left and right?

(BTW, Sibel's blockbuster testimony made the front page of the American Conservative magazine - even though Sibel's claims involve about as many Republicans as they do Democrats. Co-author Philip Giraldi, an ex-CIA'er, strikes me as wholly patriotic and credible. Maybe when you, or anybody else, convinces us that Sibel is just a lying perjurer, Giraldi will admit his mistake, then join in with the huge groundswell of support from FBI, CIA, the Democratic Party, and the Republican Party who want to help fight "conspiracism" which makes irrational folks, such as myself, not only disbelieve in the statements of government, but also disbelieve in their willingness to do much to dispell the uncertainties which surround some of the biggest conspiracies. Investigations are iterative processes, but multiple-lead-aborted investigations - if they're even begun - which don't follow leads that a 10-year-old could figure out was worth pursuing, aren't taken seriously by this conspiracist.)

Further links to various Sibel Edmonds stories can be found here, including this 911-related one.

Former FBI translator Sibel Edmonds dropped a bombshell on the Mike Malloy radio show, guest-hosted by Brad Friedman (audio, partial transcript).

In the interview, Sibel says that the US maintained 'intimate relations' with Bin Laden, and the Taliban, "all the way until that day of September 11."

These 'intimate relations' included using Bin Laden for 'operations' in Central Asia, including Xinjiang, China. These 'operations' involved using al Qaeda and the Taliban in the same manner "as we did during the Afghan and Soviet conflict," that is, fighting 'enemies' via proxies.

As Sibel has previously described, and as she reiterates in this latest interview, this process involved using Turkey (with assistance from 'actors from Pakistan, and Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia') as a proxy, which in turn used Bin Laden and the Taliban and others as a proxy terrorist army.

(emphasis mine)

435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


Ah Yes! Trust The LaRouchies! (4.00 / 1)
Why didn't I think of that?

Of course, you "haven't looked into it much", but you just know that Berlet is wrong for reasons that you can't quite manage to articulate.

If you actually read what I wrote, you'd realize that you're not actually mounting an argument against what I said at all.  Here it is again, read carefully this time:

there is good reason to investigate both Pakistan and Saudi Arabia for their roles in furthering the development of al Qaeda--as, indeed, America's own role has remained largely under-examined.  But that's a far cry from insisting that either of them must have been operationally involved in 9/11.

My position, you see, is that there's good reason for such investigations, because there are long histories of involvement between the US, Saudi and Pakistani intelligence and al Qaeda, going back to its roots in the 1980s war against the Soviets.  That alone provides a good reason to investigate, since it's well-known that intelligence agencies tend to maintain contacts with everyone they can, regardless of whether they are friend or foe.  Thus one does not need to insist "that either of them must have been operationally involved in 9/11," as I wrote in my diary.  That was my argument.

I never said that they weren't or could not have been operationally involved.  Without any sort of investigation, none of us have any basis to make such a claim.  Indeed, it's entirely possible that some lower-level operatives did know, and that some folks running them also knew, and the warnings had been sent and ignored.  Something like this appears to have happened with the Oklahoma City bombing, for example.  And that's plenty of reason for ass-covering all around, enough to shut down any half-decent investigation. But just because part of an organization may have known something, that doesn't mean the whole organization did, much less that it was in charge of the whole thing.  It's just this sort of full-throttle over-interpretation of facts that makes the conspiracist true believers so unreliable in their reasoning and interpretation.

I've written before that I do believe in some things that most folks regard as pretty wild--such as the October Surprise conspiracy between the Reagan/Bush campaign and the Iranian government to hold the hostages until after the 1980 election.  But I believe that because of the quality of the evidence compiled, and the credibility of the sources.  So I'm not at all ideologically blinded to the possibility of very nefarious actions.  In fact, I've no doubt that the Bush Administration was morally capable of initiating 9/11 for their own ideological ends.

But such a notion, rather than being "radical", actually lets the rest of America's long imperialist history off the hook.  It's the product of a profoundly conservative belief system at bottom.  And "progressives" who can't see this are not to smart in following clues, IMHO.  Another reason to be skeptical about their 9/11 claims.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
According to Mosaddeq Ahmed's article: (0.00 / 0)
The basic point is that the U.S. 'secret government' (Bill Moyers' phrase) has a very long record of contriving attacks on its symbols of power as a pretext for the declaration of wars, with an attendant corporate media frenzy focussing all public attention on the Enemy to justify the next transnational mass murder. This pattern is as old as the U.S. corporate state - from the sinking of the battleship Maine to start the Spanish-American War in 1898, through the fabricated attack on the U.S. battleship Maddox in the Gulf of Tonkin in August 1964 along with the fabricated attack by Egypt on the client-state Israel in 1967, to a reiteration of the same general pattern in setting up the War Against Iraq from 1991 on - a war that has murdered by bombing and embargo intent an average of 5000 Iraqui children every month since. This executive branch war is still in motion. It started and it continues by the same overall pattern as 9-11. In the case of Iraq, the war was precipitated by the green light given by the U.S. Ambassador, April Glaspie, who said that the U.S. was 'neutral' regarding the climaxing dispute over oilfields between Iraq and Kuwait just before Saddam ordered troops into Kuwait. 'Saddam fell into the trap' were the insider words of Jordan's foreign minister after the event.

"Throughout there is one constant to this long record of hoodwinking the American public into bankrolling ever rising military expenditures and periodic wars for corporate treasure. This decision structure ruled before and through 9-11, and has escalated after it - to fabricate or construct shocking attacks on U.S. symbols of power to provide the pretext and the public rage to launch wars of aggression against convenient and weaker enemies by which very major and many-levelled gains are achieved for the U.S. corporate-military complex.

So, it seems that rather than letting the American Imperialists off the hook, the narrative of some 9/11 "conspiracy theories" is actually very much in line with the past actions of our empire. Bush/Cheney would not be breaking new ground if they, indeed, acted in ways that resulted in the 9/11 attacks as an excuse to place US military forces on either side of Iran.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
No One Knows What Happened To The Maine (4.00 / 2)
It's still disputed, and unresolved.

And the Gulf of Tonkin was a case of entrapment (they were deliberately trying to provoke the North Vietnamese to attack) that failed, but amidst so much confusion that they initially believed the North Vietnamese had taken the bait.

Both were morally reprehensible, to be sure.  But neither involved a direct, fatal attack on thousands of American citizens.

To pretend these are equivalent by using the term "contriving attacks on its symbols of power" is as disingenuous as the propaganda used to start such wars.

Given that I was already opposed to the Vietnam War for over a year before the Gulf of Tonkin incident, I find it somewhat tiresome to be lectured to as if I'm some sort of rube.

Fight lies with truth, not more lies.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Tricky part is figuring out which is truth and which is not (0.00 / 0)
I find lecturing tiresome as well.  


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Nobody is suggesting that memos were sent to all members of spy agencies, FBI (4.00 / 1)
I find the "911 was an inside job" chant to be annoying, partly because it lets people believe, as you say,

But just because part of an organization may have known something, that doesn't mean the whole organization did, much less that it was in charge of the whole thing.

However, as bad messaging as this may be, I've never encountered anybody who actually held such a naive view. And any way, I think you know perfectly well that most 911 Truth activists call for a serious investigation to determine the facts, unequivocably.

You are essentially repeating the most vacuous of "debunker" talking points. The uber strawman of the debunkers is "everybody was in on it".

If the US decides to stage (another?) coup in Venezuela, are they going to get everybody in the Venezuelan military and intel on board, before they proceed? When the US played it's part in murdering innocent Italian civilians during false flag operatons (operation Gladio), was everybody in Italian military and intel in the know? How about everybody at the highest levels of military and intel? Isn't it standard to run military and intel operations on a 'need to know' basis?

Also, I wouldn't presume that there are not 'unofficial' chains of command that don't have the US president at the pinnacle. I remember reading about US-Japanese trade agreements in the 1980's, where the author explained that the Japanese beauracracy was quite capable of thwarting what the elected leaders had agreed to. Just because we're not that badly off (AFAIK), isn't it a standard feature of modern democracies that career beauracrats can defy leaders who come and go every few years, to some extent? Shouldn't this be particulaly easy in military and intel beauracracies, where secrecy is at a premium?

As it turn out, Ray McGovern, a career CIA officer who used to hand HW Bush his daily intelligence briefing, has just recently expressed fears about "two CIA's":

Editor's Note: Some years ago, before his death in 1991, legendary CIA officer Miles Copeland talked cryptically about what he called "the CIA within the CIA," a self-appointed group of intelligence insiders who knew America's "interests" better than the elected politicians did. [See Robert Parry's Secrecy & Privilege.]

In this guest essay, Brad Friedman of Bradblog.com recounts similar concerns voiced by ex-CIA analyst Ray McGovern as he puzzles over the timidity that President Barack Obama and CIA Director Leon Panetta have shown before entrenched CIA insiders.
.
.
"Let me just leave you with this thought," he said, "and that is that I think Panetta, and to a degree President Obama, are afraid --- I never thought I'd hear myself saying this --- I think they're afraid of the CIA."

Perhaps it's no coincidence that Ray McGovern favors a serious re-investigation of 911, eh? As McGovern is proud of his service in the CIA, he's the last person that would accuse the entire CIA, as a whole, of "being in on it".

435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


[ Parent ]
Problem Is (0.00 / 0)
There's a fair smattering of "9/11 Truther" programming on my local Pacifica station, and I can only take a couple of minutes of it before switching it off--and I'm usually pretty good at just tuning stuff out that I'm not interested in.

So, basically your argument here strikes me as a case of "who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes ears."

I chose "lying ears" for $500, Bob.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I don't get your meaning (0.00 / 0)
Are you saying that in the few minutes that you can bear to hear about 911 conspiracies, before switching it off, whoever is presenting or being interviewed suggests that "everybody was in on it"? They they don't want a full re-investigation?

435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


[ Parent ]
Nope (0.00 / 0)
I'm saying that people can put up a very sane-sounding front but not sound all that sane if you listen to what they're saying behind the front.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
of course we didn't (0.00 / 0)
maintain intimate relations with the Taliban or Bin Laden...we didn't even recognize the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan.

Saying we had an intimate relation with the Taliban is like saying we have intimate relations with Castro.


[ Parent ]
Uh, no. Wrong comparison. Try this: (0.00 / 0)
Saying we had an intimate relation with the Taliban is like saying we had an intimate relation with the Saudis.
The fanatic wahhabists that the Saudi family supports aren't any better than the fanatic pashtun Islamists (who are close to Wahhabism, btw). And even though the Al Quaeda base was in Afghanistan, without Saudi money they wozuldn't have "accomplished" anything. But the Saudis are seen as big friends of the US! Go figure.

Or, the other way round:
Saying we had an intimate relation with Castro is like saying we have intimate relations with China.
Hmm, why prefer one communist regime over another? Especially since Castro never killed protestors?

Sry, DT. but the example you chose only serves to expose the hypocrisy of the US when it comes to distinguishing between friends and foes. The differences are so small, it's really ridiculous.


[ Parent ]
'intimate relations' is spelled out for us (0.00 / 0)
Perhaps you think Sibel is lying, but why not say so, directly, instead of quibbling about her use of the phrase 'intimate relations'?

IIRC, Sibel can remember document numbers to support most all of her claims. I think this interview is where I learned that. Not sure about whether the 'intimate relations' claim has such documentation.

AFAIK, Edmonds did not commit any felonies by stealing such classified documents. Some people (such as knee-jerk 'debunkers') chose to dismiss her, saying that she has no evidence. Duh. Since she knows where to get the evidence, should there ever be a serious investigation of her claims, and the documents don't 'disappear', I view the 'no evidence' charge as whining by denialists.

435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


[ Parent ]
Two Types of Crazy | 26 comments
USER MENU

Open Left Campaigns

SEARCH

   

Advanced Search

QUICK HITS
STATE BLOGS
Powered by: SoapBlox