Why Obama Lies About Race

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Sep 26, 2009 at 17:30


Jimmy Carter was a terrible President, but as a former President he's second only to John Quincy Adams, who was the foremost anti-slavery voice in the House of Representatives at a time when the South had virtually shut down all mention of slavery as a topic of discussion in Versailles. Carter has excelled at assuming the role of elder--a role found in human societies across time and around the world. It's the role of one who has made their mark in day-to-day world of material and status concerns, and has nothing more to prove. Their concern now is with the welfare of the whole and taking care for the future.  And that's what Carter has done to a degree that's not been equaled by other ex-Presidents since the time of John Qunicy Adams. That was the context in which he spoke out about the role of racism in fueling that attacks on Obama.

It was the kind of thing that no one still bound up in the day-to-day world of material and status concerns could say--even though it was as obvious as the nose on your face.  But President Obama responded by denying the obvious truth that Carter spoke.  And, to be honest, very few people could be surprised that Obama lied the way he did.  Lying about race has always been at the center of the racial bargain that Obama has struck:  You pretend that I'm not black, and I'll pretend that racism doesn't exist.  That's not it exactly, but it gets us in the right ballpark, sitting in our favorite seats, hot dogs and cold beer in hand.

Remember this exchange between Keith Olberman and Melissa Harris-Lacewell?

OLBERMANN:  Previously, on many topics, this president has taken a minor controversy and turned it into something worth contemplating, worth analyzing, particularly on the issue of race itself.  Is he missing an opportunity to take what seems like a central controversy and turn it into the same kind of thing by reacting the way he did to President Carter?  To say through a spokesman that the White House doesn't believe racism is a significant factor here?

HARRIS-LACEWELL:  Yes, I mean, I guess I understand that the president is trying to pass health care.  But there are these moments-you know, I've heard people say maybe what President Obama is doing is the rope-a-dope strategy of Muhammad Ali, laying back and taking the body blows to tire out the opposition so he can come out with a knockout.

But one of the things that was true about Muhammad Ali, is that when he saw racism, he always spoke to it.  He always said it.  It was part of what we loved about his brashness.  I wish it was a little bit more Muhammad Ali in Barack Obama today.

Sorry, Melissa, you must be thinking about the anti-Obama.  Because Barack Obama would never go there.  He accidentally stumbled vaguely in that direction when he called the arrst of Henry Louis Gates "stupid" (not "racist") and that's as close as he's ever going to get.

But why?

Paul Rosenberg :: Why Obama Lies About Race
My explanation for why Obama lies about race has three parts: First, understanding how he lies about race. The way he does so is by embracing the framework of colorblind racism, which includes the key tenets of minimizing and naturalizing racism.  To repeat, the four core frameworks of colorblind racism:

(1) Abstract liberalism.

The frame of abstract liberalism involves using ideas associated with political liberalism (e.g. "equal opportunity," the idea that force should not be used to achieve social policy) and economic liberalism (e.g., choice, individualism) in an abstract manner to explain racial matters.

(2) Naturalization.

Naturalization is a frame that allows whites to explain away racial phenomena by suggesting they are natural occurrences.

(3) Cultural Racism.

Cultural racism is a frame that relies on culturally based arguments such as "Mexicans do not put much emphasis on education" or "blacks have too many babies" to explain the standing of minorities in society.

(4) Minimization of Racism

Minimization of racism is a frame that suggests discrimination is no longer a central factor affecting minorities' life chances ("It's better now than in the past" or "There is discrimination, but there are plenty of jobs out there).

Indeed, Obama uses the very fact of his election to explicitly make the minimization argument himself, then furthers the minimization by treating the whole thing as a joke--telling Letterman, for example, "I was actually black before the election."  There would be nothing wrong with such a use of humor, if it were used to ease our way into a serious discussion.  But Obama uses it for the opposite purpose--to cut off any sort of serious discussion, and thus to perpetuate a lie.

Colorblind racism functions as cohesive framework of legitimating myths to help sustain America's racial hierarchy, as described by social dominance theory:

Thus, by reinforcing the ideology of colorblind racism, Obama is helping to perpetuate the existing racial dominance hierarchy, even as his skin color constitutes an implicit attack on it.  This is the more accurate version of the bargain I spoke of earlier--a black individual is allowed to rise, and thus symbolically, at least, the entire race is allowed to rise, but only at the price of explicitly pretending that there is no longer any systemic or institutional barrier to the entire race rising as well.

White supremacy remains America's implicit national ideology.  It won't do to express it openly in polite company, but white identity remains dependent on the persistence of a black underclass who can safely, regularly, and even subconsciously demonized as other, as an essential mechanism of maintaining our own good opinion of ourselves.  This is how the group psychology or racism always works, at it's core, even though it may vary endlessly in its details. And even black professionals like Obama can partake of the psychic benefit involved by means of the bargain he has struck, validating the larger racial bargain that everyone enters into by perpetuating the framework of colorblind racism.

As psychotherapist Robert Young argued in "Racism: Projective Identification And Cultural Processes":

I think that the price of admission into a culture is the acquiring of its projective identifications (Young, 1992). That is why racism is historically and culturally contingent. It is quite specific in its utilisation of scapegoating and stereotyping. To understand a particular form of racism is to bring together psychoanalytic understanding with social, cultural and economic history - quite precisely.

Anti-black racism is much attenuated from what it once was.  But all manner of indicators tell us that it is far from gone, and thus the essential core function remains operative--the black underclass other assures everyone else that we are not like them.  We do not commit random acts of violence.  "America does not torture." See how Obama lies?  See why he lies? He lies to be innocent.  He lies to be white--no, make that "post-racial."

That's the ticket!


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Post-racial (0.00 / 0)
Has that word ever come out of Obama's mouth? I notice a lot of pundits use it. Paul uses it very well.

I'm just not sure that Obama talks about it as much as we think he does. I'd like to know where this whole "post-racial" nonsense started. Was it something Obama used to characterize his election or rather something pundits used to describe how he won?

Anyway.. thoughtful post.


Don't Think of an Elephant (4.00 / 2)
Obama doesn't say post-racial because Obama doesn't say "racial".

[ Parent ]
That's Quite An Elephant, (0.00 / 0)
Sahib!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
but he does say death panels (0.00 / 0)
a lot.  

[ Parent ]
He doesn't? I'll quote him in part. (4.00 / 2)

"We do not need to recite here the history of racial injustice in this country. But we do need to remind ourselves that so many of the disparities that exist in the African-American community today can be directly traced to inequalities passed on from an earlier generation that suffered under the brutal legacy of slavery and Jim Crow.

Segregated schools were, and are, inferior schools; we still haven't fixed them, fifty years after Brown v. Board of Education, and the inferior education they provided, then and now, helps explain the pervasive achievement gap between today's black and white students.

Legalized discrimination - where blacks were prevented, often through violence, from owning property, or loans were not granted to African-American business owners, or black homeowners could not access FHA mortgages, or blacks were excluded from unions, or the police force, or fire departments - meant that black families could not amass any meaningful wealth to bequeath to future generations. That history helps explain the wealth and income gap between black and white, and the concentrated pockets of poverty that persists in so many of today's urban and rural communities.

A lack of economic opportunity among black men, and the shame and frustration that came from not being able to provide for one's family, contributed to the erosion of black families - a problem that welfare policies for many years may have worsened. And the lack of basic services in so many urban black neighborhoods - parks for kids to play in, police walking the beat, regular garbage pick-up and building code enforcement - all helped create a cycle of violence, blight and neglect that continue to haunt us."


[ Parent ]
the latter (4.00 / 2)
Obama himself acknowledged racism didn't die with his election. Racists voted for him...I know plenty.

Racism is a controversial topic the media loves to obsess over because it's ratings gold...they go do great specials like "Black in America" and people watch to see if fights are going to break out.

and for some reason Paul wants the President to wade in this alligator-infested river?

That wouldn't be brave, that would be utterly stupid.  


[ Parent ]
Need (4.00 / 1)
While I think all the details here are correct there seems to be an unspoken conclusion that I disagree with.

And even black professionals like Obama can partake of the psychic benefit involved by means of the bargain he has struck, validating the larger racial bargain that everyone enters into by perpetuating the framework of colorblind racism.

I think it is fair to say that Obama would never be president if he was unwilling to make that bargain.  So I postulate there were only two choices, a black president pretending to be "post-racial" or not having a black president at all.

This leads to the question of whether or not having a black president with this bargain is a net plus or minus to our national discussions on race.  Put another way, compared to four years ago, have our national conversations on race improved or gotten worse?

My first thought is: what national conversation on race four years ago?  Seems to me there was no national conversation on race a few years ago.  Sure, isolated pockets talked about it all the time, but short of the occasional O.J. or Rodney King the conversations stayed local.

For better or worse, today we are having a national conversation on race.  You seem to be taking the "for worse" side of that sentence, but I have a very hard time believing that is actually true.

Today, we do discuss race far more often.  Even if Obama himself needs to stay out of it, I think the conversation is an overall positive thing.  Obama's very presence stimulates that conversation.


Try A Little Consciousness (4.00 / 3)
My main argument here is that Obama's simply responding to the environment around him.  He's not challenging it in any way.  My suggestion is that he could challenge it, though obviously not in any sort of threatening way.  But, for example,  he could have followed up his Letterman joke with an opposite tack.  He could have said something like this:

Look, we all have histories of experiences that have shaped up in ways we know and ways we don't.  We all know people who are blind to aspects of their own behavior and attitudes.  And if we're honest with ourselves, we can all recall times when we were the ones who were blind.  So in that sort of a subconscious way, do I think that race plays some role?  Sure.  How could it not?  But is that the best thing for me to be talking about now?  In my judgment, the answer is no.

That would have done just about everything that he wants to do, in terms of closing the issue, and yet it wouldn't have required blatant dishonesty on his part.

But we never seem to get that sort of awareness from him.  He always seems to miss those easy layups.  And his apologists always make like it wasn't an easy layup, it was a half-court jump shot at the buzzer.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
you clearly never worked for the media (0.00 / 0)
you want him to walk right into their trap.

[ Parent ]
Except That I DO Work For The Media (4.00 / 3)
I have since 1994, in fact.

Are you wrong about everything?

When they ask you your favorite color, for example?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
What media? (0.00 / 0)
what newspaper, radio or television news network do you work for Paul?  

[ Parent ]
Random Length News (4.00 / 2)
It's in some of his links.  It's in the material he writes.  I think he's an editor.

Why the challenge?


[ Parent ]
I believe Paul also wrote for the Christian Science Monitor. (4.00 / 3)
You do have to wonder about the attentiveness of some of the Rosenberg haters.

[ Parent ]
I understand racism exists... (0.00 / 0)
However I feel like the argument you make here is that if I say I'm not racist in any way, and that I don't care what the color of skin is, you're going to tell me that I don't know that I'm a racist because it's all subconscious anyway. No, when I say I'm not, I'm not. And when others say they're not, you don't know that they are even though they're saying that. So according to you, we could all be racists at heart, and not even know it...that's crazy!

[ Parent ]
Racism isn't a matter of how you "feel." (4.00 / 3)
It's an institutionalized system of imbalances. Your choice is to perpetuate, and strengthen, those imbalances, or to actively resist them.

Which have you chosen?

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
there's also not being aware of them (0.00 / 0)
Also, I think what were dealing with is not so much racism as bigotry. In other words, just a general irrational hatred directed at non-whites. I see racism more as an attempt to classify people's behaviours primarily according to race, but
I haven't seen many arguments being made that Obama is a particular type of person because of his race. Rather his race is being targeted because it's a convenient way of hurting him and those who he obviously represents (other minorities).  

[ Parent ]
If you're not aware of them, (4.00 / 1)
then you are strengthening them.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
I don't dispute that fact (0.00 / 0)
but I don't think that makes one racist. Most people are unaware of their participation within a system of discrimination and oppression. I don't think it's useful to describe these people as racist. Ignorant, prejudiced, lazy, and self-interested, yes. It makes sense to me to attribute racism to a conscious behaviour of perpetuating ignorance, discrimination and hatred, such as with Rush, etc. Maybe my definition of racism is too narrow, I don't know.  

[ Parent ]
Again, it doesn't matter how you feel. (4.00 / 1)
It matters how you act. And people cannot act in a conscious manner unless they are conscious.

The solution is to wake up.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
i don't think we're arguing with each other (0.00 / 0)
but I would be interested in learning how you think people wake up. Waking up isn't that easy, a lot of structural conditions involved for one.  

[ Parent ]
Agreed. (0.00 / 0)
I guess I am just impatient with what I perceive as your willingness to make excuses for racists. But maybe I am projecting.

I should explain I am a Southerner, raised by and among racists all my life. They are my friends, neighbors and family and I love them, but I love them too much to leave them like that. So when you say, "they aren't racist they are unconscious," how that feels to me is like I am trying to dry out a drunk, and here is someone offering them a whiskey!

They don't need whiskey they need coffee. And to have more conversations about race, lots more.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
I did call them ignorant, lazy and bigots (4.00 / 1)
not exactly coddling if you ask me.  

[ Parent ]
Like I said (0.00 / 0)
probably projection on my part.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Or given your comments downthread (0.00 / 0)
maybe not! Sweet Jesus.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Limbaugh and Beck's talk of "reparations" is quite clearly specific to (4.00 / 3)
African-Americans. You're being quite disingenuous here. And as Sadie points out later in this thread, fear/hatred of  African Americans has directly connected to a white aversion to public safety nets.

[ Parent ]
No, It's Not Crazy At All (0.00 / 0)
First of all, there are various ways that researchers have objectively detected bias that individuals are subjectively unaware of.  This is not a theory, it's well-established fact.

Second, I never said that having such biases made you a racist.  The book I referred to is called "Racism Without Racists".  Get it?

Third, when you make this sort of argument, based on assumptions and beliefs divorced from reality, it does raise the question of whether "the lady doth protest too much."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Take the test (4.00 / 1)
here. (It's the Race ['Black - White' IAT] - Implicit Association Test.) It's free, private, and all that. It's also kind of fun. (It's Harvard University-based, not a tacky "what's-your-Inner-Self-like?" personality test.)

That's one of the ways researchers have objectively detected bias that individuals are subjectively unaware of.

But that's all aside of Paul's point, really.


[ Parent ]
I think (4.00 / 1)
this sentence is kind if interesting:

My main argument here is that Obama's simply responding to the environment around him.  He's not challenging it in any way.  

He is the first African American President in this country's history.

His MERE EXISTENCE poses a fundemental challenge to the  environment around him in ways far beyond any of his words could convey. In Florida we have seen two GOP county chairs essentially exposed as racists in the last 8 months alone.  This reaction isn't by accident and it is surfacing because racists feel incredibly threatened by him. In fact I think you can argue Obama threatens them more than any person since MLK.  

And you think he needs to do more than this?  

Let me put it this way: we could have the most liberal white President in the world raising racial issues and he wouldn't challenge the racial environment one tenth as much as Obama does simply by being President.  


[ Parent ]
His mere existence (4.00 / 3)
poses a challenge only in the minds of some yahoos. But that's not where the power lies.

To pose a challenge to the economic class structure, he would have to do somewhat more than just "exist".

The point is that he has zero intention of posing any such challenge. He's not even a reformer, let alone a revolutionary.

On the contrary, he's here specifically to validate the increasingly feudal status quo.  

http://attempter.wordpress.com


[ Parent ]
this has nothing to do with the topic (0.00 / 0)
we're talking about race and Paul's suggestion that the President doesn't want to take on racists and he should.  

[ Parent ]
This is the topic. (4.00 / 3)
On race, as on so many other things, Obama thinks it's enough just to "be." It isn't. Some times you have to do.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Just Beiing Is FIne For KIngs (4.00 / 2)
For presidents, no so much.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
The class war is always the topic (4.00 / 2)
no matter what the proximate topic is.

It's very simple: if we could break the power of corporatism, all races would benefit, and especially the poor.

It we don't, all will become ever more impoverished.

(Of course, there are many Democrats who would be perfectly happy with all races "equally" enslaved. They tend to reject things like what I'm saying.)

We should aggressively call racists "racists", because it's a direct moral and emotional accusation and counterattack.

The very fact that the enemy gets so hysterical about it proves that they fear it. They know it's effective because it's the kind of attack in which they specialize (screaming that dissenters are "unpatriotic" or don't "support the troops" or whatever).

The difference is that in our case the accusation we make is true.

http://attempter.wordpress.com


[ Parent ]
You get it. (4.00 / 2)
Racism is a weapon of the class war. Pretending it does not exist is not a useful defense. In fact it's a terrible defense.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Derailing the debate and avoiding defensiveness and attack (4.00 / 1)
Those are all the mechanisms underlying President Obama's disingenuous denial that race is behind opposition to health care.

I think the simpler explanation, though, is that admitting the obvious would almost definitely derail the national "debate" about health care and give rise to defensiveness and attack from those whom the statement might be about and from the right, generally. The debate then becomes about Obama's "racism charge." He doesn't want to go there, irrespective of whether he thinks the charge is true or not.

One thing Obama has been consistent about in almost any area is sidestepping or avoiding almost any statement that might create defensiveness or attack. (One obvious exception was his "clinging to guns" statement during the campaign. Another might be his "stupid" comment at his July press conference.) One can argue whether that's a good thing or not.

If someone made the undeniably true charge to Obama that many of the loony right-wing fringe were a bunch of right-wing authoritarians, Obama (assuming he knew the term) would similarly deny it, again, to avoid provoking defensiveness and attack from the right.  That denial might be partly strategic in the sense of controlling a political agenda and partly the result of his own risk-averse, conflict-avoiding behavior. One wouldn't have to posit an underlying ideology of right-wing authoritarianism in the country that Obama is deriving some benefit from.

Now Obama might be, in fact, "reinforcing the ideology of colorblind racism" and "helping to perpetuate the existing racial dominance hierarchy" in making his denials-in fact, definitely, I'd say-and even "partak[ing] of the psychic benefit involved." But that, to me at least, is not necessarily why he's doing it any more than reinforcing some RWA ideology and partaking in the psychic benefit, if any, would be why he was doing it in the other hypothetical instance. Those might be additional factors that play a part in his denials in this case (if they're not viewed more as effects than causes) but not necessarily the only or even primary ones.


I Don't Care Why Someone's Pissing On My Leg (4.00 / 2)
I really don't.

But as for how he could avoid lying and still not get people rilled, see my response to Mark.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
That response you gave to Mark is excellent, Paul (0.00 / 0)
I agree. If Obama gave that response it would do exactly what he wants and be more honest. I wish he would have.

Obama's desire to avoid getting people riled up (a clear predilection we've talked about before) is, in my view, an explanation of sorts, not a justification, for why he did not flatly agree with the obvious truth uttered by former President Carter. He could have given a better response, such as the one you offered, or a completely disingenuous statement, as he did; either would have served to avoid some ensuing "outrage," if that was indeed his concern.


[ Parent ]
Every damn post, Rosenberg (0.00 / 0)
You tell us what a shithead Obama is.  Give it the hell up, or join the Greens, or the GOP, or whatever the fuck.  Because you are tiresome and offensive as hell.

If You Want To Join A Cult (2.00 / 2)
the GOP is looking for folks like you.

Don't forget to ask them how well it's working for them.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
You are just as cultish in the other direction (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
WTF??? (4.00 / 2)
No such thing, dude.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I'm not really sure what Paul is complaning about here (0.00 / 0)
I'm not sure Paul is sure about what he's complaining about here.

He's angry because President Obama isn't calling his opponents racism.

Seriously?

Does Paul live in America?

It just seems like grasping at straws, trying to bitch about something now. This is probably the most ridiculous thing I've seen yet on OpenLeft.


[ Parent ]
Learn To Read, Please (2.00 / 4)
There are basic comprehension classes at every community college in America.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Immaturity suits you, it really does (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Well... (4.00 / 1)
One could argue you need to learn to communicate better as well.   The comments you make are proof of that.  Seriously, your kind of acting like a d-bag right now, as are some of the people who are arguing with you.

[ Parent ]
You Can Argue Anything You Want (4.00 / 2)
Doesn't make it true.

Or even remotely plausible.

Free country and all that.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Not Racist (4.00 / 1)
That isn't what Paul is suggesting.  However, you are still correct, because that would be heard if Obama followed Paul's suggestion.  Paul, as per usual, is basically correct.  But he is a perfectionist with absurdly high standards.

Paul gave a specific suggestion to my question above on what Obama could say.  And he is correct, that would be an awesome answer.  What he fails to take into account, though, this isn't about good answers and bad answers, it is about probability.  No one is perfect.  If Obama tried to talk the way Paul wanted it would occasionally come out badly, and we would get hammered for it.  He already gets hammered for "misspeaking" along this lines despite being very careful.

Just like the first blacks to play baseball, boxing, etc. had to be better than anyone else, Obama has to be virtually perfect in his ability to not act racial.  But that is ok, because his presence alone accomplishes 90% of what is needed along these lines.

The next time an African American reaches this level, it won't be as important.


[ Parent ]
Absurdly High Standards??? (4.00 / 2)
I'm not asking Obama to be Malcolm X.

I'm only asking him not to be Stepin Fetchit.

Stepin Fetchit was the first black movie star, you know.  So he represented real progress.  By doing everything that white America expected of him.  And validating their fantasies.

That was the racial bargain then.  And if you claim that Obama just being does 90% of what anyone might want, then you're saying (a) that's the racial bargain now, too, and (b) you're fine with it.

The real shame here is that everyone knows Obama is no Stepin Fetchit.  He's Sidney fricken Portier.  So why the heck doesn't he act like it?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
He isn't Step'n Fetchit and he's not acting like it. (0.00 / 0)
You're very confused if you think he is.

How he's acting towards the issue of racism in America is appropriate.

Methinks your privilege is showing.  


[ Parent ]
Methinks yours is. (0.00 / 0)
Obviously the bargain of "let's pretend there is no racism" suits your purposes. You might want to think about why that is.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
I think his is Barack Obama (0.00 / 0)
Not one of the icons that live in your head.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Of course you have high standards (4.00 / 1)
You know you have very high standards.  Obviously, you will disagree with "absurdly", but you know darn well you have very high standards.

It is also obvious that Obama's presence in the White House does more to spur honest discussions of race then any 'bargain' he has made can undo.  


[ Parent ]
It's actually one of the (0.00 / 0)
more offensive things I've seen at Open Left and it shows that at least one white liberal has a real problem with understanding racial issues.  

[ Parent ]
More than one (4.00 / 2)
to judge from the comments.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Didn't Obama acknowledge that some of it was race-based? (4.00 / 1)
before claiming that the majority were protesting in good faith, meaning being just plain dumb, sans the racism?

Secondly, I think he declined to address the problem of racism for two legitimate reasons.

Number one, he would have to bracket out a special moment to address it, such as he did with the Wright speech. It can't be addressed in passing, or in the context of an interview. It's the type of subject that needs to be laid out and given a proper address, in which alternate point of views are considered. In other words, the tension surrounding race needs to be diffused and place into context before expressing his views on the matter. This would ensure he doesn't get sound bited, since in theory he would attract significant viewership and media attention. It would also control the message in a way that he obviously can't in interviews or press conferences. I don't think there's any time to deal with this issue appropriately for now, but I'm confident Obama can, and probably will in the long run.

Secondly, there's just not enough evidence that racism is fueling the protests right now. There's always going to be a fringe that makes the center look bad. It's poor journalism (and sociology) frankly to examine the most extreme elements to make assertions about a general population, even if it's probably true that racism is a significant factor. But if Obama wants to make that claim, it can't just be based on citing a few extreme examples. That would leave him open to significant criticism and ridicule.

In other words, I think he has smartly avoided the subject for now. Once he's gathered substantial and irrefutable evidence, then make a case, hopefully after health reform.

 


Small Point: Perhaps Carter Did Obama's Work... (0.00 / 0)
Carter's comments were dead on accurate for some portion of the opposition to Obama. And Carter got wide media play for his comments. Perhaps Obama decided to let Carter take any arrows and spears.

To one of Matson's points above, Obama's presence as President is causing us to discuss race more than if he were not President. It's a fitful discussion, mostly ad hoc like Carter's comments.

Isn't it also revealing that Obama is half white yet you never hear that mentioned in the media. All the hard work and sacrifice of his mother and her family made, their contributions to Obama's life, has been disappeared.  


Discussing race, maybe (4.00 / 1)
but so far the gist of that conversation seems to be "not a problem, nope, we all agree it's not a problem!" Which is exactly the mindset Obama is feeding and it's not a wholesome one.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Well it really isn't a problem (0.00 / 0)
he got elected despite it, has continually maintain positive approval ratings despite it, and is closer to signing a comprehensive healthcare reform bill than any President before him despite it.

I think his point is it's not worth even discussing because it's not as if calling them racists are going to change their minds or weaken them. In fact, it's more likely to embolden them once the media smells blood and decides to run non-stop talking head debates about whether or not Obama needs to play the race card because healthcare isn't getting passed.


[ Parent ]
It is a problem (4.00 / 2)
for all the black people in America who are not president.  

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
How is it a problem for us? nt (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
You don't understand (0.00 / 0)
how racism in America is a problem for black people?

Sorry but I don't even know where to begin on that one.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Actually I was saying that him (0.00 / 0)
not talking (even though he does) about it isn't a problem for us. crossed wires.  

[ Parent ]
But that's not what we're talking about (0.00 / 0)
it isn't a problem for HIM, so why the hell does he need to talk about it? How the hell is it going to help other black people in America if he calls out everyone who doesn't like him as racist?  

[ Parent ]
And actually (4.00 / 3)
given that racism is the reason America has the stingiest safety net of any industrialized country in the world, it's a problem for all of us who aren't in the fortunate 1%.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Obama clearly isn't taking the position (0.00 / 0)
that it's not a problem.  

[ Parent ]
Well, I guess from his point of view (0.00 / 0)
it's the kind of "problem" that can be solved by two guys having a beer in the White House.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Disagree (4.00 / 1)
The sense I get is that the older notion that race is "not a problem" is became less tenable after the primary and election in 2008. Maybe not from Obama himself, that much is true.  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Half White and the Definition of Black (4.00 / 3)
Isn't it also revealing that Obama is half white yet you never hear that mentioned in the media.

You also never hear Tiger Woods being described as the greatest Asian golf player, even though he is just as Asian as African.  Heck, he is probably more Asian than African, given the history of slave owners raping their slaves.

But race has never been about ancestry, as much as people pretend it is.  The average African American has more slave owner in his blood than the average white.  (I'm pretty sure that is correct; think about it.)  The fact that means nothing to anyone shows how we are discussing culture and culture only.


[ Parent ]
you hear about it in Asian spaces (0.00 / 0)
there is a whole website devoted solely to highlighting people who are HAPA (half asian pacific american).  You can find similar spaces for all kinds of identity.

This is a case for increased media justice - both on political grounds, but also on identity grounds (ideally both).

Not that I have a horse in this race as a nonWhite multiculti elite former freelance writer who left because the space was too narrow to make a living and still write what I wanted.  I went to work for a neoliberal financial paper in India and didn't feel bad, because I felt that I was trading race bias for ideological bias.


[ Parent ]
Carter Accomplished a Lot (0.00 / 0)
Carter's energy policies were way ahead of his time and would have stoppmd much of what has led to the climate crisis -- but he never gets credit for anything besides wearing a sweater.  The Panama Canal Treaties were probably the most progressive thing the USA has EVER done in Latin America and Camp David made more progress in the middle east than in a millenium or two or three.

Iran and the Oil Price shock killed Carter politically.  He was poor in dealing with the old bulls in congress but a terrible President?  Only if you think Ronnie Reagan sits at the right hand of God.


There Was A Reason Ted Kennedy Ran A Primary Against Him (3.00 / 4)
Carter's politics were all over the map, but strongly tilted to the center-right, ill-coordinated and poorly communicated.

Other than that, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Well there was that whole speech before he was (4.00 / 1)
elected...

There is no bargain. He is a black man in America. He knows that this is a racist country and that race will consume his presidency if he addresses it in more than a fleeting manner. Us black folks understand this country and its race problems (and how to navigate them) far more than others.


A Speech He Only Gave Because He Absolutely HAD To (4.00 / 3)
and after that, he shut up tighter than a clam.

This:

There is no bargain.

Is directly contradicted by this:

He is a black man in America. He knows that this is a racist country and that race will consume his presidency if he addresses it in more than a fleeting manner.

Which is half the bargain: "Talk about race, you're dead."  The other half is "Shut your mouth, you can go far. (The rest of your race, not so much.)"

The fact that you can deny the bargain exists, and then sate the bargain in the very next breath is deeply telling.  That sort of schizophrenia is exactly what needs healing.  But it can't be heard without discussion.  And nothing can be discussed by terms of the bargain.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
He didn't have to give a speech (4.00 / 1)
and he certainly didn't have to address all the issues he did in the speech.

And no, there is no contradiction.

A bargain requires at least two parties.

He talks about race. So if anyone is lying, you are.

You are really showing your privilege. I love white people telling me about race issues and how they should be addressed.  


[ Parent ]
Let Me Explain Why I Can't Be Bullied (0.00 / 0)
The first black person who tried to make me feel guilty about being white came very late in the game.  I was in my early 20s.  I had already grown up listening to black music since before I could talk. I had already had a black best friend as a child when I was too young to even realize he was black.  I had already had my first sports hero be a black man (Willie Mays), and my second one (Cassius Clay, back in the day) emerge as a political hero as well. I had already launched myself as a writer, with my first self-publishing venture inspired by outrage over the murder of Malcolm X.  I could go on and on.

So here I am in my early 20s, and this light-skinned black dude (how he comported himself) was laying down this "white devil" rap.  And I just had to explain to him that I knew all about all the evils he was chronicling, but I wasn't buying his simple-minded rap.

Later that day, I learned that he had spent several years during the height of the turbulent 60s passing as white, and that he had "issues" he was working through.

So, yes, I know I'm white and always will be.  There will always be things I can learn from black folks, particularly about race. But I also know that I've got an open mind, good influences and good instincts.  And I'm not easily fooled by black folks with issues who can't tell who their friends and allies are.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Hahaha. (0.00 / 0)
You have black friends.

That's perfect.  


[ Parent ]
Nope (4.00 / 1)
Not my point at all.

You will use every trick in the book to avoid discussing my core argument.

And that's precisely my point--Obama is empowering this avoidance, he is promoting it.  He is embodying it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Your core argument is based on the flawed (0.00 / 0)
premise that it's black folks responsibility to end white racism.  

[ Parent ]
Not At All (4.00 / 2)
It's America's responsibility to end racism.

And Obama is President of all America.  Not just black America.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
he is embodying it because he has to (0.00 / 0)
he doesn't have to on class
he doesn't have to on the environment
he doesn't have to on health care

but he does have to to a much greater degree on race.  BECAUSE he embodies it.  All the White politicians in the world can talk about race as much as tehy want, and all the male politicians in the world can talk about gender as much as they want, but there is something very different in the experience of it.  If you don't like the way he's approaching it, you should, as Mark suggested, abandon the idea that having a Black President has been a useful tool for discussing race as it exists today.

I don't think Obama has some super secret plan, but I do think he has instincts for self-preservation and those areas in which he 'accidentally' slips out of that generally have to do wtih race (e.g. with Crowley) because he genuinely cares.  And then he is bashed when something slips out, and learns his lesson as a survivor, and doesn't bother.

So he pokes, and then is smacked, and is reluctant to poke again.

All of which is to say that, sure, he could do a hell of a lot more to combat racism, but the strategy would have to be very indirect and nontransparent.  For example, ending the war in Afghanistan, creating an employment programme in the U.S., etc.  If racism without racists ist he problem, then ideas and dialogue are not going to address it without addressing structure.

However, WE could do much more than that on the cultural front (ideas, ways of communicating, etc.), rather than thinking that the President of the United States has so much power that he can transform a society in which - for among the first times in American history - he is actually socially disempowered in at least one way.  Not altogether, not in many ways - in one way - but one important way when you're talking about the very hierarchy that disempowers him.


[ Parent ]
I should boil this down (2.00 / 2)
A white person telling a black person what he should to do fix/change/end white racism is a very confused person with a lot of privilege issues.

A white person who feels the need to tell anyone to do anything about racism should tell white people to stop being racist.

It's actually that simple.  


[ Parent ]
You're right (4.00 / 2)
we should all just STFU and racism will magically go away on its own. Like cancer.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Nah. White people need to talk to white people. (0.00 / 0)
Not our job to end white racism.  

[ Parent ]
We do. (4.00 / 1)
Believe me, we do.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Form Over Content (4.00 / 2)
(1)

A white person telling a black person what he should to do fix/change/end white racism is a very confused person with a lot of privilege issues.

Always a potential problem that needs to be considered after the substantive issues raised have been addressed. Otherwise it's simply an example of the genetic fallacy.

(2)

A white person who feels the need to tell anyone to do anything about racism should tell white people to stop being racist.

Which I have done repeatedly, and will continue doing repeatedly in the future.  And I catch a lot of shit for it, too.

All I'm asking for here is that my President stop working for the other team.  By denying the existence and the role of such racism, he is playing for the other team.

It's actually that simple.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
You're lying. Why? (0.00 / 0)
Obama never denied the existence and role of racism.

As far as "catching" shit for telling whites to stop being racist that's nice but doesn't change the fact that it's not the responsibility of any black person to fix your groups problems.


[ Parent ]
Obama Undercut Carter (4.00 / 2)
What he did was very straightforward.  You're the one who's lying.

No one forced Obama to run for President.  But since he did, he should do his job.  It's job of black REPUBLICANS to undercut folks like Jimmy Carter.  It's not the job of any elected Democrat to do that, much less the President.  I'd be even more critical of a white President doing the same thing.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I missed the rest of your post under the (0.00 / 0)
cut and I'll just say as a black person I find it offensive and really shows your white privilege.

Obama isn't lying about anything. He acknowledges the existence of racism, racists, and the effects of racism on our country and us black folks.


Simple logic (4.00 / 2)
You can't win an argument -- in fact you can't even make an argument visible -- if you're unwilling to argue. Politesse simply moves the ground of the argument away from its natural center, and in doing so, concedes it to an inferior thesis.

Those of you who argue that Obama can't do what Paul asks of him, because it will pollute any attempt to do more important things have a point, but it's not one which should govern the approach taken by genuine reason. If you aren't sick and tired of being sick and tired, like Fannie Lou Hamer, if you're unwilling to put your life, fortune and sacred honor in the front of the bus like Rosa Parks, if you're unwilling to say if not here, where; if not now, when? you will never, ever, get there from here.

Paul is right; the rest is just risk assessment, and the timid have never been particluarly good at that.


Paul isn't right. (0.00 / 0)
Paul is wrong. Obama does talk about race and racism.

Paul is showing a severe case of white privilege telling a black man (I am one) how he needs to act in the face of racism.  


[ Parent ]
Obama Only Talks About Race and Racism When Forced To (4.00 / 2)
You may be black, but you're still deeply confused, denying there's a racial bargain in one breath, then invoking it in the next.

By this logic:

Paul is showing a severe case of white privilege telling a black man (I am one) how he needs to act in the face of racism.

no white can ever say anything critical about any black person with respect to race.  With all due respect, that's bull.  What if a black man or woman said exactly the same thing I said?  What would you say then?

It's perfectly valid to raise the issue of white privilege.  But it's not valid to raise it in place of offering a counter-argument.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Sorry you think I'm deeply (0.00 / 0)
confused but it's your privilege to think so even though you're completely wrong.

He is never forced to do anything. He doesn't have to talk about anything he doesn't want to talk about.

Obama wasn't elected to make America a non-racist country and he couldn't even if he tried.

And more importantly it's not his job.  

Even you white liberals are racist in some way so he'd be fighting against all whites not just the blatant racists.

There is a reason minority activists tend not to be fans of white liberal organizations. They're always being told what's best for them.

Now, if a black person said the same thing I'd say the same thing I said above and they'd understand my position.

However, you aren't black.

You have zero idea what it's like to be black.

You, however, feel privileged to tell a black man what he needs to do about an issue that he didn't cause and can't fix and that you only understand superficially at best.


[ Parent ]
Obama has talked about race on a number of occasions. (0.00 / 0)
I can think of a speech he made to an African American organization (I can't remember which), for one, and the comments he made about the Gates arrest. He's aware of the problem and is interested in dealing with it in a way that is politically feasible.

I wonder if people will be satisfied once Obama goes after every social, economic and foreign policy issue simultaneously and destroys his presidency. At least he will have won a victory for reason, and progressives will feel vindicated. But we won't call it "racism" when Republicans resume power -- and perpetuate exponentially worse conditions for minorities -- because of it.

 


[ Parent ]
I'll be satisfied (4.00 / 1)
if he goes after any social, economic or foreign policy in a progressive manner and saves his presidency. In fact I'd be ecstatic.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Me too. (4.00 / 1)
If he gets a good health reform bill, that will pave the way to many other positive changes.  

[ Parent ]
You mean the NAACP speech that the NYT notoriously summed up (4.00 / 1)
with the headline, "Obama Tells Fellow Blacks: 'No Excuses' for Failure?" Sure, I hold the NYT responsible for that, but it's also very hard for me to believe that Obama doesn't have the savvy to have seen that one coming, or for me to believe that the "no excuses, no excuses" line wasn't by itself a deliberate placation to a wider, whiter audience.

[ Parent ]
Not the white privilege you should be worrying about (4.00 / 2)
Mmm.... If white people don't talk about such things, how do you imagine we can have an effective discussion about the effects of racism in this country at all? If white people's attitudes are the problem, how do you propose to find a solution without discussing black people's responses to those attitudes? Shouldn't white people be part of that discussion? If not, then aren't you in effect asserting a black privilege, based more on wounded pride than on an objective assessment of where black people actually stand on these issues?

[ Parent ]
Such things? Such things (0.00 / 0)
shouldn't include telling us what to do to fix our situation. White people can talk all they want to each other about why they're racist and how they should stop being racist. That does not require them telling us how to act.

There is no such thing as black privilege.  


[ Parent ]
Based on that logic (4.00 / 1)
you'd make a fine white person -- the kind of white person who doesn't want any outsiders messing in his business, especially not those yankee agitators from up north.

(Apologies for the double post. My browser doesn't seem to want to tell me what it's doing this morning.)


[ Parent ]
That doesn't make sense. (4.00 / 1)
Racism is a problem of white people. They are responsible for fixing it.  

[ Parent ]
On that point (4.00 / 2)
I agree with you completely. On the other hand, President Obama is my president too, and as such, he has certain responsibilities, one of which is to act when action is required. As Paul has said, no white person in his right mind would expect President Obama to be Martin Luther King, or Malcolm X, but we do expect him not only to honor them in the third person, but to act as though he understood what they risked for all of us.

It may be that Mark Matson and others are right that just by being President, Obama will have a tonic effect on our racial distempers, but I don't think so. Would Mark -- or you -- say the same thing about Clarence Thomas?


[ Parent ]
His responsibilities (4.00 / 1)
do not include ending white racism.

That's not the responsibility of anyone but white people.

King and X were not trying to end white racism either. They were trying to better the plight of African-Americans. Neither of them held the illusion that they could make white Americans non-racist.


[ Parent ]
We're not asking him to end it (4.00 / 1)
We are asking him not to act as though it could be papered over in the interest of a false harmony.

[ Parent ]
He doesn't need to do anything (0.00 / 0)
at all. White people are the ones who are responsible for the problems.  

[ Parent ]
Maybe not (4.00 / 1)
but they certainly don't include coddling and enabling white racism, either.

Too many white Americans think "our sins are now forgiven, we've elected a black president, time to move on." And Obama seems more than happy to accept those terms.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
He's not coddling or enabling anything (0.00 / 0)
Whites are racist all on their own and won't change no matter what he does or doesn't do.

That's for white people to tackle.  


[ Parent ]
I think I'm beginning to see the problem. (4.00 / 1)
"White people won't change no matter what."

If you honestly believe that,  then I guess it does make sense to keep your head down, your mouth shut and look out for no one but yourself.

But I don't believe it. I've seen too much to believe it.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
RIF. (0.00 / 0)
Whites won't change no matter what HE does or does not do does not mean white WON'T change. They are responsible for changing. He is not responsible for changing them nor could he.  

[ Parent ]
Again (4.00 / 1)
you are arguing from the position that there is no hope, so it doesn't matter what anyone (including Obama, the most powerful man in the world) does.

I just can't go along with that. Power isn't meant to be won and held for its own sake, you're supposed to use it to help people.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
RIF= Reading is Fundamental (0.00 / 0)
No hope? I said it is up to white people to change their ways. That's all I said.  

[ Parent ]
Yes, reading is fundamental. (4.00 / 1)
And you aren't even reading your own words.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
And How's That Supported To Work, Exactly? (4.00 / 2)
Particularly when you're telling us we don't know anything about race?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
How are you supposed to tell white people (0.00 / 0)
not to be racist? If you feel comfortable telling black people how to end white racism (a far more complicate proposition) then you should be just fine telling whites not to be racist.

I'd start with telling whites to stop telling black people what they need to do about white racism.  


[ Parent ]
I'd start (4.00 / 2)
with learning to tell your friends from your enemies.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
I guess 200 years ago my friends would be the (0.00 / 0)
ones telling me I'm not doing enough as a black person to end slavery?

[ Parent ]
No, two hundred years ago (4.00 / 2)
your friends were the ones in the deep South risking their lives running the underground railroad. Or the ones in the North agitating for Abolition.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Certainly they weren't taking the position (0.00 / 0)
that my family (slaves) weren't doing enough to end slavery. No friend would blame the victim.  

[ Parent ]
No one is blaming any victim. (4.00 / 1)
Are you saying Obama is the victim? He's the president of the United States.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
So since he's the president (0.00 / 0)
he doesn't face white racism. Is that your position?  

[ Parent ]
Not in any meaningful way, no. (4.00 / 1)
He has climbed into the treehouse of the elite, he is successfully insulated from it now.

No one will ever deny him a loan, or a job, or an apartment because of his race. The police will not drag their heels coming to his house if it is broken into, or haul him into custody when they get there. The school system will not watch his children under a microscope looking for an excuse to take them away. His kids will never have to attend third, or even second, rate schools. He will never be pulled over for driving while black, or tased. He will not have a sewer plant built in his neighborhood, or an interstate run through it.


Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Not in any meaningful way? (0.00 / 0)
The premise of this post is that Obama's agenda and presidency is under attack because of racism.

You disagree?

As far as the rest I assume you mean now that he was elected president not in the past. Right?

You ever been to the southside of Chicago btw? Where Obama lived?


[ Parent ]
I'm not sure that is the premise of the post. (0.00 / 0)
But I'll defer to Paul on that.

The way I see it is, his agenda is not under attack because of racism. His agenda is corporate hand-outs, primarily to wealthy white people. How would it be racist to oppose that?

But at the same time, there is a war going on in our country between the elites and the rest of us. Racism is the way the elites have always kept the rest of us at each other's throats, to keep us from uniting against them. This is what makes racism the problem of all of us, and why it would be nice to have an ally in the White House.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Carter said Obama was being attacked (4.00 / 1)
because of racism. Paul says Obama lied when he said Carter was wrong and that it was the opposition to his policies and misinformation that is behind the attacks.

I don't think that's what Obama said but the fact that Obama is being attacked because of racism is certainly a central premise of the post otherwise there is no point to this post.  

Now as far as attacks on his person go  the bone through the nose witch-doctor who is not an American but is only for black people and health care changes are actually reparations are racist attacks. As are the attacks on his wife and children.

Racism is a problem for all of us but it's caused and can only be cured by the racists and others in their group.



[ Parent ]
Agreed. (4.00 / 1)
The personal attacks are definitely racist. There's no question about it.

And I also agree that racism is the responsibility of racists and others in their group, but I thought that was what Carter was trying to do, and why it was disappointing that Obama cut his legs out from underneath him by giving the racists an out.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
But of course Obama did no such thing. (0.00 / 0)
To do that he would have had to have said that there is no racism present in the opposition to him. But he didn't, he said that some of the opposition was most certainly racist (true) but that some was based on opposition to his policies (true) and confusion about what his policies were (true).

The truth is the truth it's not an out. If the racists want to hide behind opposition to policy they'd have to drop the racist words and imagery and they don't seem like they want to do that at all.  


[ Parent ]
He did undermine Carter. (4.00 / 1)
People are not making pictures of Obama with a bone through his nose because of policy. No way. To say that they are is to elevate the racists and pretend they are respectable.

It's a deadly game.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Not everybody (0.00 / 0)
is making pictures of Obama with a bone through his nose.

You might also be surprised to hear that some of those signs came from protestors on the LEFT too.  


[ Parent ]
And you have a link to this? (0.00 / 0)


Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Of Course There's No Such Thing As Black Privilege (4.00 / 1)
but that's not stopping you from trying to assert it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
That doesn't make any sense. nt (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
It does. (4.00 / 1)
You are claiming the right to speak for all black people in America, based on what, exactly?

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
I am? Of course I'm not. nt (4.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
You are. (4.00 / 1)
Reading is fundamental. The context of every comment you write is "I speak for all black people."

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Of course it's not. (0.00 / 0)
Though I must admit that I've never, in my 40 years, met a black person who said "I need white people to tell me what to do so I can end white racism".

Perhaps that person exists...


[ Parent ]
That's Just My Point (0.00 / 0)
What you're doing makes no sense.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
But of course that's not what I'm (0.00 / 0)
doing. It's just what you want to say I'm doing to deflect from the fact that you feel privileged to tell the victim of white racism what they need to do to end white racism.

And to deflect from your lying perhaps.  


[ Parent ]
"telling us how to act" (0.00 / 0)
I read Paul's post a little differently, illlaw. I didn't read it as Paul telling President Obama (or anyone) "how to act" or how he "needs to act in the face of racism." I read it as saying "Here are what I see are some likely effects of Obama's recent comments re racism," i.e., reinforcing the ideology of colorblind racism, helping to perpetuate the existing racial dominance hierarchy. Anyone could, rightly or wrongly, make that assessment, I think. (I appreciate that your take might be very different from mine.)

There's, of course, an implicit critique made by a white man (Paul, presumably, although we've never met) in reference to a black man (President Obama)-i.e., it would be better if he did something other than what he's doing-but I'd be reluctant to rule out that critique on the basis of the race of who is making it. (One can critique it on all sorts of other grounds, of course.)

You're right-Obama doesn't "need to" do anything-the responsibility for ending white racism rests elsewhere, not with him. But his actions can shape the environment in more favorable ways or less. (Someone can play a role in solving or ameliorating a problem without having any responsibility for causing the problem in the first place.) Obama's role as President magnifies the effects of his actions. That fact doesn't make him "more responsible" or even "responsible" at all-it just lets him shape the environment, in favorable or unfavorable ways, to a greater degree.


[ Parent ]
Not the white privilege which you should be worried about (0.00 / 0)
Mmm.... If white people don't talk about such things, how do you imagine we can have an effective discussion about the effects of racism in this country at all? If white people's attitudes are the problem, how do you propose to find a solution without discussing black people's responses to those attitudes? Shouldn't white people be part of that discussion? If not, then aren't you in effect asserting a black privilege based more on wounded pride than on an objective assessment of where black people actually stand on these issues?

[ Parent ]
The discussion in this thread is an example (4.00 / 1)
of why Obama doesn't want to engage with this issue right now. It's a deeply sensitive issue that has to be given special attention.

Secondly, Obama can't do anything to stem the racist tide, in fact he is likely to make it worse, as we have seen. It has to collapse from the inside. Nothing will do more to end racism than a landslide victory over a Republican "value" president riding a racist wave. It's already on its way to dying. The majority of people don't support racism, and the uglier it gets, the more isolated these people will be become. They will have to come to the table with a different attitude next time around. Obama is smart to let this evolve on its own so people can witness firsthand the ugliness underneath. There's no more effective measure than this to ending it.

 


It's also an example (4.00 / 2)
of why he should engage this issue right now. With all deliberate speed is the kind of abstraction which comforts everyone, and changes nothing. This is the core of our disagreement.  

[ Parent ]
Sorry, what is our disagreement? (0.00 / 0)
We both agree racism is bad and that the effects of it need to be abolished. Your prescription is what exactly? That the president do or say what? I'm not sure I understand what you think the president is in a position to do right now to improve the situation.

My prescription is to let the racism become visible so everyone can take a good long look and make up their minds if that's how they want to live. I'm betting no. I'm betting these people will be marginalized from within once Republicans realize it's not a path to victory, but rather the contrary. Nothing will do more to end such examples of racism than letting it fail on its own.  



[ Parent ]
Asked and answered (0.00 / 0)
Paul's response to Mark below will do as well for me, I think. President Obama is, in effect,  appealing to us to let this cup pass from him. Not ours to decide, but the truth of the matter is that all the sins we elected him to address, if not redress, are in that cup, and this being America, almost all of them are tinctured with racism. I'm not saying that he doesn't know this; I'm saying that know it or not, his actions are inappropriate.

To me, the evidence to date suggests that he believes he can do what he promised to do without disturbing the most savage of our sleeping dogs. This is almost certainly not true, regardless of his reasons for believing it. As I've said, this is the core of our disagreement. We'll find out who's right soon enough.


[ Parent ]
This? (0.00 / 0)
My main argument here is that Obama's simply responding to the environment around him.  He's not challenging it in any way.  My suggestion is that he could challenge it, though obviously not in any sort of threatening way.  But, for example,  he could have followed up his Letterman joke with an opposite tack.  He could have said something like this:

   Look, we all have histories of experiences that have shaped up in ways we know and ways we don't.  We all know people who are blind to aspects of their own behavior and attitudes.  And if we're honest with ourselves, we can all recall times when we were the ones who were blind.  So in that sort of a subconscious way, do I think that race plays some role?  Sure.  How could it not?  But is that the best thing for me to be talking about now?  In my judgment, the answer is no.

That would have done just about everything that he wants to do, in terms of closing the issue, and yet it wouldn't have required blatant dishonesty on his part.

But we never seem to get that sort of awareness from him.  He always seems to miss those easy layups.  And his apologists always make like it wasn't an easy layup, it was a half-court jump shot at the buzzer.

You think these types of asides on Letterman are what the president should be doing to rectify the problem of racism? And he's already acknowledged that some of the criticism is racist. Substantively there is virtually no difference between what Obama is already doing and what Rosenberg prescribes. Not only that, even if he were to say something substantively different, that would not be an appropriate forum to get such a message across. It cannot be dealt with effectively in asides. It would make the situation worse, as it will both diminish its importance, and will be taken out of context. The best way to handle this is to either address it directly, formally and with significant context, like an adult, or to let other processes already effectively dealing with the problem proceed unhindered. I don't see any half way point.

Someone needs to state clearly what they expect the president to do that would deal with the situation better than he's already doing, while at the same time not impede other processes that would provide similar structural benefits in the long run -- like universal health care (if we get that), or absolutely killing racist opposition at the ballot box. Both of these will do more to combat the effects of institutional racism than anything the president says, and his actions should be measured with these goals in mind.



[ Parent ]
This Was Just What MLK Was Told When He Was In Birmingham Jail (4.00 / 2)
He was only stirring up trouble, making matters worse.  He should just let time take its course.

He had a few words to say about.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
So the situation in the 60's is comparable to the present? (0.00 / 0)
This is what happens when thinking becomes axiomatic. It ignores context entirely.  

[ Parent ]
It has always been (4.00 / 3)
"a deeply sensitive issue that has to be given special attention." For something like 500 years now.

I understand if Obama is too delicate for the rough and tumble of political life, but really, he goes too far when he coddles racists by, for example, saying that healthcare reform must not include any coverage for undocumented workers. That's straight-up racism, and he's feeding the beast just to save his own power. It's not going to work, and it's certainly not going to make racism "wither and die" on its own as you seem to hope.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
that's a really good point (4.00 / 1)
he doesn't do much to undermine any aspects of discourse that are obviously and blatantly racist.  i still think he should get surrogates to do it for him, rather than doing it himself, though.

[ Parent ]
He's not delicate, wtf? (4.00 / 1)
It takes great inner strength not to lash out at every slight. Look at Mr. Rosenberg. He cannot deal with dissent of any kind. He lashes out. Mr. Rosenberg would never make it in politics. Are you guys watching the same storyline here? An African American just became president of the United States, inconceivable just 2 years ago, and is now managing several contentious bills through congress, while dealing with a right wing noise machine distorting everything and promoting the worst kind of suspicions and hatred. The situation could not be any more rough and tumble. You're playing into Repubican memes that portray him as weak because he doesn't express rage or doesn't immediately seek confrontation.

The only reason he's president is because it's in his nature to be diplomatic and conciliatory. It's a Catch-22, he cannot be both the president and the progressive you envision, yet many arguments presented here implicitly (and erroneously) assume both of these conditions are possible, RIGHT NOW. He could be doing more, yes, but he's doing quite well given the limitations and obstacles he's contending with, and I predict as the structural situation improves, such as passing a few good bills, we'll see him do more.  


[ Parent ]
Different perspectives. (4.00 / 3)
It does not take great inner strength to keep people imprisoned indefinitely without a trial, or to give amnesty to torturers. Nor does it take strength to give billions to Wall Street crooks while law-abiding Americans lose their homes and jobs.

Obama shows plenty of "toughness" when it comes to catering to the elites, but standing up to them? Not so much.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
I think those criticisms are valid (0.00 / 0)
but that doesn't make him weak in this case since as I've already argued there are plenty of ways that this type of racism can be contended with without the president having to spend any political capital on it right now, and moreover, virtually nothing Obama says on the subject -- in passing -- that will improve the situation.    

As for the substance of your criticisms, I think the jury is still out. A narrow torture investigation may become wider as evidence is made public. The logic of the investigation may make further inquiries inevitable, even in the public eye. If the goal is to prosecute the guilty, there's more than one way to get there, some more politically intelligent. Realistically, who would you like investigated? Cheney, Bush? I don't think that's politically possible based on the polling I've seen, and on the media's reticence to acknowledge torture.

I guess I do trust Obama's judgment in some way. I think ultimately he will push toward the kind of changes that are more genuinely progressive, but it's going to take time, and possibly letting the Republicans fail. The debate surrounding the public option gives me faith that progressives are poised to have a greater influence as well. And I would love for the race problem to be dealt with, but I still haven't seen any alternatives in this diary that would improve the situation.    


[ Parent ]
Well you tell me when that jury comes in. (4.00 / 3)
I've had enough secret pony plans and 11 dimensional chess to last me awhile.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
well the alternative is Bush (0.00 / 0)
so we could always go back to that. In the meanwhile, I'm going to be patient for a few years and see if some positive changes are realized. I'm far happier under Obama than Bush, and most likely under any of the other democratic candidates we had.  

[ Parent ]
you can never go back (4.00 / 2)
and some of obama's more diehard supporters are going to find that that cup has run dry at some point :)  not saying y0ou're one of them - but the argument is frequently used.  My response is usually - i could pick a rock off up the street or get a pigeon, and it would be a better president than bush was, simply by doing nothing.

[ Parent ]
And you are dead wrong (0.00 / 0)
about Rosenberg. He is one who hungers and thirsts for righteousness -- exactly the kind we need in politics because these milktoast cautious centrists like Obama are killing us. They will not rock the boat, they will sing Kumbaya as it goes over the waterfall.


Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
I'm dead right about Rosenberg (0.00 / 0)
I think his diaries are very interesting and thoughtful and I like them but he does not handle dissent well. That's fairly obvious. The form of the debate -- as much as the content -- should emulate progressive values, and in his case it often does not. If someone disagrees with his position he shouldn't be telling them to go to community college like an elitist, but rather he should try explaining his views using a different argument, maybe even conceding some valid points from his critics along the way. Persuading people to adopt new views is imminently more complicated than just presenting a valid argument and asking people to read and read it as if the truth of the matter was self-evident. Obama actually understands this and that's why he's president.  

[ Parent ]
"Progressive values" (4.00 / 4)
are bigger than you think. Sometimes they include fighting.

In fact I challenge you to tell me one great progressive accomplishment that was secured by "explaining views using different arguments, maybe even conceding some valid points from his critics along the way."

That's how you conduct yourself at cocktail parties, not how you create social change.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Sometimes it does include fighting (0.00 / 0)
by which I mean physical fighting, like going to war, or rioting. But anytime argument takes the form of fighting, we have in a sense adopted a means of expression that is fundamentally at odds with progressive values, and which in fact is the rhetorical form most commonly found in conservative circles. It achieves nothing. It divides more than it unites, and moreover, it reduces complex issues to simple, divergent positions. If the end goal of argument is to persuade people to adopt new positions, or to see a complex issue in a new way, denigrating criticism does not achieve this at all. In fact it alienates people. Case and point the comments in this diary. The reality is that we all share tremendous common ground in these comments and fairly limited disagreement, yet because Rosenberg is combative these relatively minor disagreements are exacerbated.  

[ Parent ]
Wrong. (4.00 / 4)
It was fighting that freed the slaves, gave women the vote and  workers the right to unionize. You still haven't given me one example of positive social change created, in the real world, by your approach.

But I think maybe you are confusing "progressive" with "middle class." Believe it or not, there is more to being progressive than listening to NPR in your volvo.

This is what Paul gets, and why people listen to him.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Who listens to him? (0.00 / 0)
I'm just wondering. I never heard of him until I found this site, and from what I see his comments are addressed to people who already share his views. I've been here two weeks and it really feels like a clique. I see no attempt to expand readership to people who might have even slightly different views.

I think you misunderstand as well what I mean by rhetorical forms modeled on fighting. I simply mean the approach of being dismissive of criticism and ridiculing it. That's what conservatives do. If you think ridiculing people who are potential candidates for joining a progressive cause and forming part of the community, which I assume Open Left is trying to create, is an effective approach, that's fine. I don't think it is.



[ Parent ]
Oh well, (0.00 / 0)
then I defer to the expert who only started reading here two weeks ago. You obviously know everything there is to know about Paul Rosenberg and his place in the blogosphere.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
So my criticism of his comments in this diary are invalid (0.00 / 0)
because I'm not familiar with his body of work? I think even Mr. Rosenberg would disagree with you here. If I implied to know Mr. Rosenberg outside of this diary, well, my bad. I don't. But comments should stand on their own merits.  

[ Parent ]
You said (4.00 / 1)
"who listens to him?"

The answer is a lot of people. He is a blogger's blogger, and highly respected among his peers.

Don't ask questions unless you want to know the answer.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
I think I will concede now (0.00 / 0)
to whatever points you're making. I'll repeat what I've said elsewhere, I enjoy his diaries, I think he's unnecessarily abrasive when he could be doing a better job of promoting a progressive community, at least in the comments section. Thank you for taking the time to respond.  

[ Parent ]
It's Not Dissent (0.00 / 0)
I don't have a problem with dissent.  I have a problem with people who ignore the substantive arguments in my diaries, and attack me on apriori grounds.

I can be very reasonable, but I am not a wimp.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Your arguments are not always easy to understand (4.00 / 1)
They are very academic, in some cases, and the conclusions do not always obviously follow from the premises. I didn't really understand the conclusion in this diary for example.  It's not surprising that such arguments might promote confusion for some. It's normal in such cases that criticism will not always deal with the substance of the argument, or the argument as a whole, and that the argument might require further clarification. It might even require some understanding that not everyone is an intellectual. I think you can be a bit elitist in your replies and I'm sure you don't find that the least bit problematic. My point is that  a progressive debate should try to be as inclusive as possible.

[ Parent ]
Clearer arguments and perception of your responses (0.00 / 0)
Well, really, Paul, I think what you state as your main argument in one of your comments is different than your argument in the diary. You're making a causal/contextual argument in the diary re Obama's statements and more of a "here's what Obama should/could have done" argument in the comment. They're different; one can agree with or disagree with one (or parts of one) and not the other. That's sort of consistent with frankenheimer's point that your arguments may be more difficult to discern than you might think.

And, while I"m a bit in awe (really) of your ability to skillfully deflect a counter-argument (even mine) with an insightful (or caustic or maybe cryptic) one- or two-line response (it's a skill some other diarists here might adopt), some of those responses might be perceived as being a bit high-handed. Obviously, one can't churn out five or six high-quality diaries in a weekend and respond in detail to each person's critique but people might see some of those replies as too dismissive (even if the comments deserve to be dismissed).


[ Parent ]
The Cool Thng About Blogs Is The Feedback (4.00 / 3)
When I wrote that comment, naturally, I thought to myself, "Gee, I should have included this in the diary."  That thought occurs to bloggers about 10^9 times every day.

And I appreciate that some of my arguments are not your standard popular blog fare.  But I try to boil them down to essentials, and I try to answer questions to help clear up confusion.  The problem comes when folks pay no attention whatsoever to the content of my argument and simply react to the result--or their perception thereof (White guy sayin' bad things about Obama! Must be a racist!)  In those cases, I have various choices, such as silence, sarcasm, challenge, patient explanation, etc.  I'll chose different responses at different times for different reasons.

But racism is really one of deepest concerns, and when I write about it, my tolerance for suffering fools gladly goes down to about zero.  Sorry, that's just how I am.  Must a been all that Leadbelly and Lady Day I listened to in my crib.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
agreed (0.00 / 0)
churn out five or six high-quality diaries in a weekend

That is indeed a remarkable talent considering length and variety.  


[ Parent ]
Yes, delicate! (4.00 / 6)
Obama's central dilemma is that he ran, if not as an outright progressive, at least by making enough progressive noises now and then to win the support of progressives. He would not be in office without them.

But his intent is to govern as an anti-progressive. For reasons I cannot fathom, his team has decided to try to use the frame of "fragility" to thread this needle.

To wit: he can't end the wars because the Republicans will call him names if he does. He had to cut a backroom deal with Big Pharma on healthcare reform because otherwise they would run mean commercials. He had to give Wall Street a blank check, with no strings attached, because otherwise they might hurt him.

You see the problem? When your stated agenda conflicts with your real agenda, you need to come up with a plausible reason for why you keep things that are the opposite of what you said you wanted. That's understandable, you want to keep the rubes on the reservation.

But why weakness? Why do they think it's a good idea to tell everyone the reason he doesn't do what needs to be done is because he's weak? That's a huge mistake that is going to catch up with them.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Damn Sadie! (4.00 / 1)
That's no comment.  It's a frontpage diary!

I've had the same thought rattling around my head for some time now, but you've crystalized it perfectly.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I learned (4.00 / 1)
from the master.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Cringe (0.00 / 0)
Sheesh, Sadie, I like Paul's posts as much as anyone (even if I take issue with him sometimes), and you and I trade recs back and forth a lot, but let's not go overboard, shall we? :p

[ Parent ]
Beg pardon? (4.00 / 1)
I'll rec whoever I damn well please, thank you, and talk however I please.  

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Cringe II (4.00 / 1)
Except I know Sadie's not the worshipful type.

We all have some degree of mastery in some areas of life, and we shouldn't be falsely modest.  Taking pride in what we've mastered, to whatever degree, gives us strength to tackle the stuff we're still struggling with.

Still, the only way I could take that was with a little lauch to myself.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Thanks -- (0.00 / 0)
that was the spirit in which it was intended. Also I was pissed at frankenwanker and wanted to pull his tail.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Ah, yes. The OPEN left! (0.00 / 0)
Also I was pissed at frankenwanker and wanted to pull his tail.

It's good to know we can handle civil debate on this board. Obama's reticence in discussing racism is looking more brilliant by the second.  


[ Parent ]
Tail pulled. (0.00 / 0)
Thanks for the feedback.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Still waiting (4.00 / 2)
to hear about that social change that was created by civility, though.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
You also have to envy the Republicans (0.00 / 0)
their rough sort of integrity. They are like "Of course we do bad things, we're assholes! Fuck you!"

But Corporate Dems are always "We really don't want to do bad things. Those bad people are making us!"

And after a point you begin to wonder why we don't just put the bad people in back in charge and be done with it?

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
He can't end the wars because of what? (0.00 / 0)
I don't think I follow your argument any more. Sorry. Both of those wars are American responsibilities and ending them must be done responsibly, by which I mean limiting the harm and damage for the true victims, the people living there. There are no easy answers for either of those wars. His hesitance isn't based on Republican opinion I don't think, plus he is doing exactly what he said he would do during the campaign with respect to Afghanistan, and even Iraq.  


[ Parent ]
Really? (4.00 / 2)
All of my friends who were against the wars voted for Obama because they thought he would end them. They thought this was what made him better than Clinton.

I saw through the weasel words, of course, but tried to keep my reservations to myself (or at least only aired them among my OL friends) because, hey , hope change and all that, right?

So now you are telling me you are cool with the continued warfare, so long as Obama says it's okay, he's doing his best and really means well?

Good to know.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
You intentionally misrepresented my argument to score a point (0.00 / 0)
I said ending the wars is complicated and his reticence is not based on conservative criticism, but rather on what an enormous responsibility these wars are. Many innocent lives are at stake.

Perhaps you can tell us how you would go about ending the wars? Pull out entirely tomorrow? That's your solution? And if tens of thousands of innocent people who against their will have grown to depend on an American presence are killed, you're fine with that?

Good to know.

It may be true that ultimately, once all factors are considered, pulling out is the best option, but I'm opposed to this being the de facto progressive position without considering all the consequences. It has to protect the interests of Afghans and Iraqis as much as possible, not our interests. We created the problem.  


[ Parent ]
I think McGovern's plan was a very good one (4.00 / 1)
as was Darcy Burner's Responsible Plan. And who knows, if we'd won the election maybe we would've gotten a chance to see those plans implemented.

Oh wait, we did win the election.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
I can't believe you haven't heard this one. (4.00 / 2)
It goes something like this:

Obama really wants to bring our troops home, truly! But if he does the Republicans will call him "weak on defense."

For the full effect you have to say it with furrowed brow, while wringing your hands.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
I actually do think it would be a mistake for him to call out the less (0.00 / 0)
tangible bits of racism, because that would mire him down in endless back and forth. Strategically, I think it would be important to call out the very tangible bits of racism- the monkey posters, the talk of reparations, etc- because your average American can more easily process those examples. Unfortunately, the quote I saw most widely reproduced from Carter's talk was probably the least specific line in it. But, you know, once isn't enough. I mean, marketing and politics 101: you hammer in a straightforward message until people see it. Obama should call this shit out simply and straightforwardly, Dem associates should call this out simply and straightforwardly. That's very much an "effective measure."

[ Parent ]
i think this is misguided (4.00 / 3)
What you've done is look at Obama as if he is a 'universal' person.  but he is not - he is a mixed-race person perceived as a Black person in a very racist country.  As a result, just by existing, by speaking at all, as president he is interacting with racism and all his actions and thouhgts and language have to take that into account.  That's why the words themselves have to be analysed with respect to who is speaking them and what place they have on the discourse on race.

it is one of the few things he does somewhat well.  his post-racialism is aspirational to the extent that it can be said to exist at all- it presupposes that racism exists - in other words, he's not a complete and total moron.

If the argument against a more forceful position on race issues was that talking about race detracts from his health care agenda or other things, I would think that would be bullshit.  However, I think that if Obama were to speak about race in a more aggressive way, it would actually undermine the limited extent to which he can influence race issues given the position of enormous power he occupies.  He's chosen a different strategy, because he is Black and he is the President and he is a politician (among the other things he is, like male...and straight...and...).  

where obama does far more damage to anti-racist work is by being a liberal multiculturalist rather than a social democratic one - if he spent one iota of time on addressing the issues of working class people and bridging the links between class issues and identity issues into a complex interwoven and effectively communciated strategy, he would be much closer to the president i want.  but he doesn't - he lets the underlying forces that divide everyone continue to exist, and it's on that that i have a problem with him - that he implicitly supports the conditions that allow racism to be widespread - and it is in this respect that i think he fundamentally misunderstands or opposes social change.

but then, you can never get a person to understand something that their job depends on them not understanding, as the saying goes ;)


I Think We Agree More Than You Realize (4.00 / 1)
The fact that Obama's neoliberal, rather than social democratic is the key to everything, and arguably I should have made this explicit in the diary.  But I already wrote enough that was completely ignored by commentators, so...

Anyway, I was not meaning to ignore the fact that Obama is [half] black as if it didn't matter.  Rather, I was trying to highlight the fact that he's functioning in a system that affects us all, and it's the system that needs to be understood in universalist terms.  Indeed, social dominance orientation impacts minorities in profoundly important ways, which manifest in extremis in the "self-hating" trope, but are far more common in much more subtle ways.  Thus, I was trying to explain the situation in which he acts, and that situation breaks down much more complexely than simply black/white, even with mixed race people like Obama tossed into the mix.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
"I Think We Agree More Than You Realize" (0.00 / 0)
No, I've realised - I went back and read the post more carefully :D

I think that, as with most things like this, you need to be careful in reconciling the universal and the particular, and everything in between.  I agree with you that there is a broad system or set of interconnected systems that structure the way that human beings interact socially - at minimum in the wealthy part of the world and the wealthier parts of the poor part of the world.  However, as with judging famous LGBT people for whether they come out or not, the issue has to be approached pretty sensitively in order to be fair, it has to see it from inside as well as outside, and it has to look at the wider context.

Which for me is this:

"The fact that Obama's neoliberal, rather than social democratic is the key to everything, and arguably I should have made this explicit in the diary."

I think it makes the most sense to focus on this and if you want to venture into the shark infested waters of race theory in this context, I think that's fine, but please do it carefully and with a regard for where you're doing it.  

"Indeed, social dominance orientation impacts minorities in profoundly important ways, which manifest in extremis in the "self-hating" trope, but are far more common in much more subtle ways."

This is a good example - this line is clearly written from the view of an 'outsider' writing about other people, from a 'mind' perspective writing about the 'body' (see Judith Butler for the gender implications of this).  All this is I can live with but when an element of moral judgement is added to it (lying, etc.), it becomes difficult to reconcile with the comfort that I need, at minimum, as a member of a few disempowered groups, in knowing that we are free to decide what we want and when we want it.  Even if you're addressing the system of race hierarchy (or the system of which racism is one part), it is still all around you and you are speaking within it - as i am - as obama is - etc.  Without taking 'a side', I think this is what illlaw was pointing to.  Which I know you know - but it needs to be more than known - it needs to be put into practice.  A diary on institutional or direct racism or other forms of hierarchies at OpenLeft and in the blogosphere more generally might potentially be far more useful than one on Obama's alleged failures to address race issues.

On an aside, #1 - I don't think the fact that he is mixed race is that relevant for my understanding of him because I don't have any way of really knowing how that impacts on him other than (at best) speculation or at worst my projected fantasies of what that might mean.  but i'm sure that there is a lot to talk about there - just beyond my comprehension.

On an aside #2 - language is very surface level, but i'd be remiss in not pointing out that 'minorities' is inaccurate and a reflection of one of the problems (governing myths if you want) of the way most american politics says it thinks about democracy (liberalism) when in fact it is usually implicitly and sometimes explicitly reflecting power dynamics not 'majority'.  The vast majority of the world's population, the U.S. population, etc. - depending on how people approach their lives/actions in relation to the oppressing structures/ideas.  


[ Parent ]
Sigh! (0.00 / 0)
I'm afraid you're lapsing into sophistry here, my friend, spinning out your fine-spun webs of theory about how I can be a better revolutionary by engaging in relentless self-criticism ("NeW! ImPROVED! Updated for the post-modern age!") while the first African-American President of the United States gives cover to racists who are attacking him!

Back in 2000, I thought that Gore was lame to the core for his failure to stand up for African-American's voting rights even when it was costing him the presidency.  I never dreamed that I'd see that topped.  But I was wrong, wrong, wrong.

Forest. Trees. Forest. Trees. Forest. Trees. Forest. Trees.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
okay lets talk nuts and bolts (0.00 / 0)
you're the first Black president.  You have amassed a lot of political capital.  Your opponents are dehumanising you simply for being the first Black president, and some of them are bringing guns to health care rallies.  You are being compared to Hitler and Stalin in the same breath, and a movement has grown and spun out of control with no responsible leadership and a lot of irresponsible leadership that i'm sure will be pubicly regretful once more horrible things happen.

Do you:

a) spend your energy taking stances that provide fodder for those people and escalate a largely useless (in a political sense) conflict;
b) work to undermine the underpinnings of what created them by - say- focusing on bridging race divides among working class White and Black people or providing single payer universal health care or changing policies that don't attract attention on the basis of race but do make it easier for organisations like unions to build;
c) seek cover, and focus on accomplishing your agenda, which happens to be very conservative, and getting reelected, while playing up your race identity when it suits you only.

I choose b.  He chose c.  I think you would choose b, but i think the way that you've written the post and the tone that you use, it sounds to me like you choose a, which, as i stated before in what you called sophistry ;) and as i stated herei n different form - is foolish, for many reasons and would backfire.

there is a DIFFERENCE in kind not just degree between Al gore taking a stand on race issues and Barack Obama taking a stand on race issues and there is a difference in the ways in which they'll go about doing it as well.  This is because one is White and the other is Black.  This is, I think, obvious, no?


[ Parent ]
This Is A BLOG POST, Not A Dissertation! (0.00 / 0)
As McCoy might say.

As such, I was taking a fairly narrow, but hopefully deep focus on the phenomena at hand.  I've written many other posts about the folly of Obama's neoliberalism and the need for a social democratic agenda instead.  Most of my other writing this weekend was all about aspects of what's gone wrong by getting farther away from the New Deal model, which was as close to a social democratic agenda as America has yet gotten.

Now, maybe you think I should have put that into this diary as well.  But since the yahoos I was sparing with didn't bother to respond to any of my actual arguments in the first place, I fail to see where that would have made any difference to anyone... except for you, of course.  And all I'm asking at this point is that you realize this.

there is a DIFFERENCE in kind not just degree between Al gore taking a stand on race issues and Barack Obama taking a stand on race issues and there is a difference in the ways in which they'll go about doing it as well.  This is because one is White and the other is Black.  This is, I think, obvious, no?

As in Masonic jiggery pokery, a difference in degree is a difference in kind.  33rd degree jackassery doesn't just grow on trees, you know!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
yes (0.00 / 0)
and it is a blog post in which a White blogger on a progressive blog with an all White line up criticised a Black person in power for not doing enough to combat racism (to the point of calling him a race traitor, which is a serious accusation, particularly coming from someone who's not from the same background and has no real world experience in being from it - unless you do, in which case I'm wrong), without taking into account that a Black person in power might have to use different strategies than a White person in power.  

It is EASY for a White person to take a stand against racism compared to what a nonWhite person has to deal with because the White person doesn't have to deal wtih the actual racist repercussions on as personal a level (which in this case are uberserious) and will have different background and baggage.  When Al Gore speaks about the climate, he's just 'a person' speaking about the climate.  When Barack Obama speaks about the climate, to some people, he's just 'a person' speaking abotu the climate - to others, he's a 'a Black person' speaking about the climate.  Now consider what would happen if he directly and constantly approached things on race in the way that (I think) you're asking - he wouldn't have time to do anything else.

That is why a post like this is misguided - primarily because of its tone, not the message underlying the message, which is with the best of intentions.  And this is evidence of a failure to aprpeciate that tone, style, substance, etc. are all relevant and in fact do make up a difference in kind (Obama vs. Gore) rather than degree (Obama vs. Clinton).

In essence, you've written an anti-racist post with enormous amounts of race analysis that fails to have race consciousness about the actual impacts of race on the people you're takling about.  And this is symptomatic of what happens SOMETIMES when people who are not dealing with personal experiences of an issue decide to comment on them.

It's somewhat ironic that in a post laden with race analysis and focused on critiquing anti-racist strategies of others, you've managed to obliterate the race of the President in analysing his actions and the effects they might have.

Maybe I'm wrong - I hope so.  However, posts like this make me a feel a bit more cynical.


[ Parent ]
oops (0.00 / 0)
that should have said "rather than degree (Gore vs. Clinton)"

[ Parent ]
Why The Constant Strawman? (0.00 / 0)
Now consider what would happen if he directly and constantly approached things on race in the way that (I think) you're asking - he wouldn't have time to do anything else.

But I didn't ask this.  All I asked is that he not sabotage Jimmy Carter bravely initiating a realistic response to the sharp rise in racist discourse.

That is why a post like this is misguided - primarily because of its tone, not the message underlying the message, which is with the best of intentions.

So, you can hear my tone, but not my actual words.

Interesting, that.

Isn't that how white folks are supposed to listen to everyone else?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
"So, you can hear my tone, but not my actual words." (0.00 / 0)
well, i asked you directly, and you didn't answer.  I'm still struggling to understand what they were trying to say.  It's fairly obvious that Obama shouldn't sabotauge comments made by Jimmy Carter pointing out clear evidence of racism.  But that's not all you said - what you said was that it was indicative of an underlying bargain he had struck - in essence that he was the 'good Black' and was by implication f"£king over all the people who aren't White who don't fit that image.

So which is it?  Do you want him to simply refrain from making comments?  Or are you saying that he, as a human being, has essentially betrayed anti-racist efforts by being who he is in the position that he is in?  Because if it's the latter you're basically making an argument against a Black president, as Mark pointed out above - which is evidence of either total lack of realism or a very skewed perspective.  And the implications could extend much further than that - but you haven't elaborated on that - or looked very much in depth at the reasons why some people end up making such bargains and why most people of color have to face the choice when they're given the opportuntiy to have some power.

Like I said, there are plenty of grounds for critiquing the role that Obama plays with regard to racial hierarchy in the U.S. - but what strategy are you recommending he adopt?  I'm not giving you a 'white people can't comment on race' line - I'm asking you what you think so that I can decide whether your thoughts on race are helpful.


[ Parent ]
Look At How Much Your Argument Here Relies On Implication (0.00 / 0)
You're a lot smarter, well-informed & thoughtful than some of others here, but you've got one big thing in common with them this time out:  you're reading all sorts of assumptions into what I've written that just aren't there, and then you're arguing with the product of your assumptions.

If this were the beginning of the discussion in this diary, I would go ahead and try to set you straight.  Instead, I'm going to try to see what I can do in my next go-round.  Stay tuned.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
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