What is Populism? (Part II)

by: John Emerson

Sat Oct 17, 2009 at 14:00


Last week’s post,  “What is Populism and Why are Democrats Afraid of It"  set off a heated but productive discussion. This week I’m basically just expanding, clarifying, correcting, and even repeating what I said there in the comments.

WHAT IS POPULISM?

“Populism” is the code word within the Democratic Party, and it's something that most wonks and pros oppose. When Democratic pros talk about populism, they normally take the worst examples (e.g. Glenn Beck) as typical. This attitude toward populism is entrenched in Pol Sci 101, and many or most  normally well-educated people blindly accept it. Democrats depend heavily on interns and low-paid staffers -- usually well-off kids from elite schools who can afford to work for nothing, Some of these interns go on to become party pros, perpetuating the anti-populist bias as well as the accompanying incomprehension of and disdain for people of the middling sort.

I define populism as participational politics by ordinary citizens, working either inside or outside the major parties but almost always against the party leadership, which opposes big business and finance  in the interests of the majority and which proposes specific policies to that effect. Between 1870 and 1940 groups of this type (including farmers’ groups and unions) provided most of the progressive energy in American politics, but since about 1950 the Democrats have shunned populism in favor of nonconfrontational "win-win" politics: “a rising tide lifts all boats”. At the same time, many rank and file Democrats have populist sympathies, and these voters are contiunually baffled and angry when the Democrats end up supporting business rather than the common interest.

John Emerson :: What is Populism? (Part II)

WHAT AM I LOOKING FOR?

Populism isn’t just rhetoric, attitude, or a way of campaigning. Both Democrats and Republicans often make populist appeals, but their serious policy proposals are always pro-business and pro-finance – unsurprisingly, since both parties are slaves to their big-money donors.

At the same time, while populism isn’t just a change of style, a change in style is part of what I’m hoping for. Alan Grayson isn’t necessarily the best Congressman we’ve got, but he’s got a rare willingness to go on the attack.Michael Moore is consciously a populist, as is Ed Schultz on MSNBC -- and then there's Bartcop. A key populistic feature which too few Democrats share is the willingness to go directly to the point and speak pungently, righteously and naively. Wonk Democrats have a fatal tendency lecture comndescendingly, carefully explaining things to people in their cool, professional above-the-battle  way,  and while this kind of politics may have worked at some point in the past, it really doesn’t any more.

There’s a special reason why populist politics is especially necessary now. Even at the top of the cycle, the economic roller coaster of the last twenty years or so has failed to help the economic bottom half of the population, and the most recent crash seems much more serious than the earlier ones. The ill effects of this crash -- job losses, lost homes, failed businesses, and ruined retirement plans -- have already reached a lot of people,  and  there is good reason to expect that we haven’t seen the worst yet.

In situations like this anger is normal and politicians have to be able to speak to that anger, but the present crop of Democrats, starting with Obama, is opposed in principle to even trying to do that. Partly this is because of habit, training, and institutional bias, and partly it’s simply because the Democrats have been bought. But the way things are going, the Republicans (who are equally bought off and equally implicated, but more skilled at attacking, and more shameless) stand a good chance of taking over again in two to four years. At the moment they’re struggling and their numbers are low, but eventually they’ll come up with an effective, plausible demagogue, and if Obama doesn’t turn things around quickly (which might not be possible), he’s going to be the one blamed.

What I hope to see in left-of-center American politics, inside or outside the Democratic Party, is a more aggressive attitude, a post-neoliberal “anti-business” stance, direct appeals to the voters without the Democrats characteristic air of cool technocratic superiority, and policy proposals which actually benefit most people at the expense of the malefactors of great wealth. But this can only come from an insurgent movement independent of the corrupt and useless Democratic leadership, or else from non-party and third-party groups.

The rest of this post will deal with a few specific questions rising from last week’s discussions.


WHO AM I TRYING TO CONVINCE?

Mostly dissident rank and file Democrats and independents. Not the party pros, who are mostly hopeless.  Not the 30% Republican hard core -- according to Gelman’s Rich State, Poor State, Red State, Blue State, most of the Republican hard core are, contrary to general opinion,  rather prosperous Not especially to the South -- there's too much hardened reaction there. Not really to rural folk -- 115 years ago most Americans were farmers, but those days are long gone, and even factory workers are much fewer than they used to be.

I’m especially talking to two groups. One is what I call the wonk demographic. A high proportion of Democratic voters are well-educated, middle-class folk who identify with the present leadership and dabble in free-lance, amateur wonk thinking of their own. Instead of making demands, which is the proper role of the rank and file, these Democrats kibitz the process, trying to guess in advance how the struggles will turn out and mimicking the pros who are really playing the game.

This kind of cagy seventeen-dimensional process politics is the politics of the weak, and it's often a loser even when played by experts (except when the experts are bought off, and the whole game is a dog and pony show anyway.) But when the rank and file try to play the insider game instead of making demands, they cripple themselves and make themselves susceptible to bluffing. The Republicans don't play that way. Since at least 1992 they have aggressively parleyed very small majorities into dominance, and just now they leveraged 40 Senate votes into control of the health plan. When wise sophisticates go up against ignorant brutes, the brutes win.

I might add that over  the last couple of decades a lot of educated wonk Democrats – MDs, lawyers, schoolteachers, PhDs, scientists – have found out that they are, in fact, just workers and peasants. This situation is not going to turn around. Management and finance run everything, and the rest of us, no matter how smart we are, don’t count. Many of us still think of ourselves as part of the finer class of people, but as the economy continues to struggle, more and more of us will find that we aren’t. 

The second and ultimately most important target is discouraged voters. Voters are discouraged because they think that no one speaks to them and no one has anything to offer them. This is OK with the parties. The Democratic party bosses, by and large, don’t want new voters because they might make inconvenient demands, and as for the Republicans, voter discouragement and voter intimidation are a big part of their game. Democrats have responded very weakly to this; partly because they have their donors to thinki of. (The Democrats' failure to defend ACORN, and their general coolness to Jesse Jackson a couple of decades back are a couple of cases of this -- though it isn’t just a black thing).

And yes, recruiting discouraged voters is damn difficult, but it’s pretty much the only hope there is. If we can’t do that we should just quit.

THE OLD POPULISTS WERE BACKWARD-LOOKING AGRARIANS, FUNNY-MONEY CRANKS, ANTI-INTELLECTUALS, ANTI EVOLUTIONISTS, PARANOIDS,  AND BIGOTS

I keep postponing my history of the actual Populist Party, but let me run through a few points.

•    During the Populist era something like half of all Americans were farmers, and that was the party's main constituency. However, they had good relations with labor, and in 1894 the Populist John  McBride was elected President of the AFL (Gompers’ only defeat).

•    The Populists’ belief that they were being exploited by monopolists and a deliberately deflated currency was accurate. Most Populists were greenbackers, and the greenbacker system they proposed anticipated the “fiat currency” system we now have. The “sound currency” goldbugs were the cranks.

•    The Populists were forward-looking and strongly supported education and the modernization of agriculture. Populist economic discussions were quite sophisticated, though that can't be said of the advocates of free silver.

•    William Jennings Bryan,  the anti-evolutionist prosecutor in the Scopes trial (remember “Inherit the Wind”?)  was a silver Democrat, albeit with Populist sympathies. It was the defender of evolution, Clarence Darrow, who had been a Populist activist. And the cynical pro-evolution journalist, H. L. Mencken, was an anti-Semitic  right-winger who hated FDR and had trouble making up his mind about Hitler.

•    Populist rhetoric was and heated and violent, but so was everyone’s during that era. Those were the days.

•    The charge of racism is valid, but an investigation of this topic just reminds you of how racist America has always been -- it’s hard to find cases when the Populists were  more racist than the Democrats. It was after the Populists had collapsed that the Republicans and the Democrats cooperated to deny the franchise to black voters in the South, creating a solid Democratic South that protected segregation until 1965. During the Populist era all three parties competed for black votes, and this had a beneficial effect even though the Populists did accept white supremacy.

•    And in a positive sense, let's not forget that many progressive policies were proposed by the Populists decades before they were put into effect: the forty hour week, the progressive income tax, regulation of monopolies, voting rights for women, unionization, and the secret ballot.

•    More here.

YOUR DEFINITION OF POPULISM IS TOO NARROW AND BIASED, AND FAILS TO RECOGNIZE THAT THE NEGATIVE SIDE OF POPULISM

The word “populism” covers a lot of ground, and I don’t advocate that we model ourselves on every populist that there ever was anywhere. My main target is the Democratic taboo on populism (which is hand in glove with its dependency on big money). An equally important target is the Pol Sci 101 definition of populism with which, it seems, virtually every Democratic wonk and half the Democratic electorate have been indoctrinated. The general impression that miseducated people have is that populists are people like Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh – hysterical, ignorant, dishonest, bigoted, militarist, and lacking in positive policy proposals. The negative aspects of the worst populism have been written into the definition of the word, to the extent that any demented anti-elitist is now called a populist. A big part of what I’m trying to do is to rescue the idea of populism from misrepresentations which have been institutionalized in the Democratic Party since about 1950.

“Populism” didn’t used to be a common noun. As late as 1983, Websters' frequently-updated New Twentieth Century Dictionary defined “populism” and “populist” in terms either of the American Populist Party or of the unrelated and very dissimilar Narodniks in Russia of a slightly earlier era.In the "Introduction" to Populism: Its National Characteristics,  a 1969 anthology he edited which tried to come up with a general definition of populism applicable across national boundaries, Ernest Gellner wrote “There can, at present, be no doubt about the importance of populism. But no one is quite clear what it  is….. Does it have any underlying unity, or does one name cover a multitude of unconnected tendencies?” Two hundred pages later, in the conclusion to this book, Peter Worsley writes “The penumbra of meanings surrounding this term need not frighten us into fearing that we have here some peculiarly spongy concept”-- which isn’t exactly reassuring, especially since the various populisms discussed  in the book don’t really seem resemble  American populism much.

I’m convinced that the generic and mostly negative definition of populism traces back to Richard Hofstadter, especially in The Age of Reform, but also in Anti-intellectualism in American Life and The Paranoid Style in American Politics. (Hofstadter also contributed to Gellner’s anthology). Hofstadter was more a man of letters than a historian, as he himself said, and his poorly researched, biased book was shaped by the political situation of his time. In his own mind he probably thought that he was responding to Joe McCarthy's demagogic, anti-intellectualism, but I don't read it that way. By the time Hofstadter published the first of these books, McCarthy had already been censured, and shortly afterwards he died. Furthermore, if McCarthy had lived Hofstadter’s accusation wouldn’t have harmed him, since the Populists were still admired by many.

But worst of all, this smear ended up validating  the populist claims of Lou Dobbs, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and dozens of other of demagogic corporate shills. Hofstadter’s real target was populism, not McCarthy, and what he (and others)  were trying to do was to reconstitute the Democratic Party as a gentlemanly party of elite experts on the British model. In this he and they were, unfortunately, by and large successful.

The generic, common-noun definition of “populism” only goes back fifty years or so, and  it was polemical in origin. I think that the time is ripe for rehabilitating the Populists and reclaiming the word “populist” as a positive term. There are a lot of fake populists: mercenary demagogues, perhaps secretly funded by business, who use anti-elitist populist rhetoric but do not make, much less intend to put into effect, any specific policy proposals that would harm business and finance.

And then there are the real, non-fake right-wing populists. But as I said, I don’t think that Democrats should model themselves on every populist that there ever was.

POPULISM HAS BEEN TRIED

I’ll just throw this one out. In the last chapter of The Populist Persuasion, Kazin points out that ever since 1980 or even earlier, everyone has wanted to be a populist, and that in most cases it didn’t work. Against this I would argue, first, that populism can't be just an electoral strategy or a style, but a movement with real political goals. Most of the populisms he mentioned were crippled or corrupted either by the lack of real goals (Perot), cults of personality (Nader, and Perot again), or conflicts of interest (most of the Democrats, all of the Republicans). 

And second, Kazin is absolutely right that the populism of the future should not mimic the methods and rhetoric or target the demographics of the populism of the past." If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

 


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You convinced me (4.00 / 2)
thank you.

excellent diary.


You May Have Done Too Good A Job, John (4.00 / 2)
Considering how much of last week's discussion revolved around misinformation and misunderstanding, maybe now there won't be anything left for people to talk about!

As a side note, I want to call particular attention to this:

The Populists' belief that they were being exploited by monopolists and a deliberately deflated currency was accurate. Most Populists were greenbackers, and the greenbacker system they proposed anticipated the "fiat currency" system we now have. The "sound currency" goldbugs were the cranks.

One of the countless things that have always bugged me about Ron Paul is how he poses as a populist, while being the most rabid gold bug on the national stage in decades.  It's so utterly ludicrous it just leaves one speechless.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


Ron Paul (0.00 / 0)
Paul is a mixed bag. He is wrong in some fundamental ways. But he was better than most Dems in speaking out against the war and the neocons, and he is, with the possible exception of Grayson, the only person in Congress speaking out about the anti-democratic nature of the Federal Reserve. Although I disagree with his prescription (going back to the gold standard,) I am glad he is bringing some attention to the otherwise unquestioned Fed.

miasmo.com

[ Parent ]
Huh? I exposed John's strange way to redefine the word! (0.00 / 0)
And that's why he comes up with the broader explanation now. So, it was certainly not me who engaged in misinformation last week. And I still hold the conviction that it's not good to come up with your own definitions like John does. Especially when it's only based on the obvious motive to get rid of those nasty other populists. Yeah, just ignore all those negative examples, and always look at the bright side of life! Ridiculous.

And I didn't engage in new criticism, because firstly, I didn't see tis story in time, and secondly, what's to be gained from reviving last weeks controversy? I won't be able to convince John that what he does is simply newspeek, and he won't convince me that his new defintion is valid. It would be totally useless.


[ Parent ]
I wouldn't have used the term "misinformation" to describe Gray's comments last week.. (4.00 / 2)
I thought of it as a stubborn series of reiterations of the received opinion.

The word "populism" is contested, just like "justice", "freedom", "democracy", etc. You can't win an argument about justice by looking the word up in the dictionary or in the Encyclopedia of Social Science. You can't even go by common usage. The same for populism. Rehabilitating words is normal.

In 1983, per Webster, the common noun "populist" was still not in common use; they only list "Popolist", referring to the American Populists and the Russian Narodniks. In 1969 Gellner and Wosrsley struggled to define it, and their definition can't be regarded as authoritative. I haven't been able to lay hands on the OED second edition, but it should have the generic definition , and at that point I'll know when it appeared.

I'm reasonably confident that the common noun "populist"  comes from Heilbroner, Bell, and others of that era. My concern is that when they generalized from the Populist party, they were working from a tendentious factual misrepresentation of the Populists.

Thus, the word "populist" in (fairly) common use today was coined in the fifties by a political faction, instilled in generations of pol sci students, and has filtered out into the general population via journalists and political spokesmen who are usually hacks, and it was based on the misrepresentation of a specific political group.

For another case the colloquial definition of "radical" now  means someone who loses their temper easily and tries to get their way by making noise and threatening violence. A lexicographer might list this as meaning #4, because lexicographers don't judge usage, but such a definition would not be permissible in normal political discourse (except as snark).

I might say, that if there's no such thing as a fake populist, there's no such thing as a real populist either. A populist just becomes anyone who claims to be a populist, or is called a populist by someone, or who seems like a populist in some respect. My definition of fake populist is I restrict the term "fake populism" to populism without an actual populist program, [or at least "which has no intentions of fulfilling its populist program", added just now], especially if it is funded by business, especially if it's secretly funded by business, and especially if it's dominated by a charismatic, authoritarian leader who makes all the decisions.

To me that's a reasonable limitation and, for what it's worse, may have been accepted by Gellner, Worsley, and Hofstadter in the 1969 book.

My intention is to redefine "populism" in a predomninantly favorable way, in opposition to the present definition which emphasizes the negatives  --  paranoia, racism, ignorance, and so on. And in redifining the word I am a political actor working against other, past political actors who have given the word an inaccurately pejorative definition.

And it's bullshit to call this Newspeak.


[ Parent ]
Hofstadter not Heilbroner N/T (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
For me, it's simply te same as rethugs redfining "progressive" (0.00 / 0)
Even stumbled upon a smart-ass right winger claiming to be a "progressive", because he had so great new ideas for the US? Same thing. Whenever you single-handedly, unilaterally redefine the well understood meaning of a word, you better be a world-renowned expert to pull off that stunt. Afaik, with all honest respect, you're not in that category, John.

And even though I'm surprised the others let you get away with that, I still won't. Because it's my sincere conviction that arguments that are based on such distortions are rationally dishonest. And that's all I have to say on this topic. I won't discuss this any further.


[ Parent ]
Gray, you're being silly (4.00 / 1)
I will be perfectly happy if you don't discuss this or any other topic here again. Your threat is idle.

I explained more than once what I did and why, and you apparently didn't even fucking notice.

Your ideas about language are ignorant. Political terms are contested by nature. If you don't understand that, there's a lot of other stuff you are going to misunderstand too. "Populist", like "progressive" is a loaded word. It's not a scientific term with a fixed meaning. I didn't redefine "argon" or "meson".

I do not blame Hofstadter for redefining the word "populist" to make it a common noun. That's OK. I blame him for misrepresenting Populists, and thereby giving a wrong meaning to the word "populist".  

Your belief in "world-renowned authorities" is also silly, and exactly the kind of Pol Sci conventionalism I'm arguing against.


[ Parent ]
What threat? (0.00 / 0)
What are you making up now? Fuhgdeaboutit, as I said, I won't discuss this any further with you. As I see it, everything has already been said.

[ Parent ]
"I won't discuss this any further" (4.00 / 1)

No one's asking you to.


[ Parent ]
John Is NOT Using the Word In A Stange Way (0.00 / 0)
And you still persist in ignoring the actual history involved, which begins with the specifically self-identified Populist movement, is profoundly misrepresented by Hofstadter in the 1950s, and is then rehabilitated in more recent years by Kazin and others.

There's an added level of difficulty, I'm sure, because of cultural differences between Europe and America.  But I assure you that John is not operating in an intellectual vacuum here.  Quite the contrary, he is carefully identifying the different positions taken by critics and proponents, as well as the variations within the populist tradition.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Then pls show me the Wikipedia article about "fake populism". (0.00 / 0)
Ridiculous.

[ Parent ]
Just go away. (0.00 / 0)
You're all wet.

Wiki? For Christ's sake.


[ Parent ]
You're in denial, John. Hofstadter had no support whatever. (0.00 / 0)
He didn't establish a school of thought in academic circles, and nobody at the universities is following in his footprints. That's the reason why Wikipedia, which is based on consensus, has no article that even remotely mentions "fake populism". And you want to make his outsider views the standard here? Then pls add a vocabulary to the site, so that readers can look up what definitions are used here. Because else there will be constant misunderstandings.  

[ Parent ]
You're completely full of shit, Gray (2.00 / 2)
I thought you promised / threatened to leave.

All three of Hofstadter's anti-populist books (Paranoid, Anti-Intellectualism, and Reform) sell better than any other book on populism except one (Goodwyn's.)

As I've mentioned five or ten times, the problem is at the Pol Sci 110 level, which is where the Democratic wonk demographic gets its misrepresentation. And Hofstadter is there. It doesn't make any difference what the best specialist PhDs now say or think, because they're not a demographic and nobody knows what they think. We're dealing with the dead hand of the past -- fifty years of anti-populist scholarship.

I use Wikipedia for dates and often it can be good for basic concepts, but it's not necessarily any good for controversial topics ore not much good for topics of any complexity. If that's your idea of an authoritay, you're much stupider than I thought.

Where did your snit come from anyway? My original post opened: Populism is politics which opposes wealth and power in the name of  the common folk. It takes both left wing and right wing forms and sometimes degenerates into bigotry and attacks on minorities. Populism can be faked, and that is being done right now - e.g., Limbaugh and Beck. What was wrong with that? The very idea that there can be a fake populist? The idea that Beck and Limbaugh are fake populists? Sometimes your huffing and puffing drowns out whatever idea you

You are correct that mine is the minority opinion on populism, but in scholarly affairs disagreement is permitted, especially on controversial political topics. Would you trust a Wiki article on Marxism or Chicago School Economics or  the World Trade Organization and its enemies or any other embattled topic?

In the US and worldwide, populism doesn't get much respect from intellectuals, with a certain number of exceptions. There's a big agenda conflict which makes that unsurprising. Along with a fair number of others I'm a revisionist, like Hofstadter, but Hofstadter is who I'm revisiong. And in scholarship, revision is what you do.


[ Parent ]
Even you can try to keep a reasonable tone, John. (0.00 / 0)
I gave you a lot of leeway. But enough already. As for the rest, sry, but I really made it clear you won't convince me with your "John Emerson vs. the established scholars of political science" story. This kind of arguing only reminds me of creationists.

[ Parent ]
Gray (0.00 / 0)
You're usually a very reasonable fellow, at least, and often very astute.  But it's like you're a totally different person in this thread.  Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

John is not making up any of this, and is, in fact, being admirably clear and concise in drawing distinctions (distinguishing genuine rightwing populism from fake corporate-fronting populism, for example.)

As I intimated before, I think part of this may well be a matter of cultural differences, as the much more developed nature of the European left may skew your perception, equating populism more with the right than is the case in America, as populism on both sides of the Atlantic tens to be more readily associated with relatively fluid political expression, even though the original Populists lasted for more than a decade, and created an infrastructure of newspapers, coops and other community-based organizations that lasted much longer.

Whether that's the cause or not, there is some underlying reason why you are rather uncharacteristically misunderstanding John's entire enterprise here.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Paul, for me, it's like you people totally don't get my point! (0.00 / 0)
John explained his reasons for using that definition of "real" and "fake" populism (small p, I'm not talking about the historical Populism movement) again and again and again, but this doesn't change the main point that this is a fringe view! And this isn't based on any "cultural differences" or so, I seriously doubt that the European comprehension of "populism" is any other than the US one (but if you have any evidence showing this, I'm interested, of course). John even admits that he's in opposition to established and widely accepted PolSci theory, so it's not like I made that up.

Now, there may be good reasons to go against the mainstream (where would we be now without rebels in science pushing for a new, better understanding), but is OpenLeft the right place to fight that battle? With all honest respect towards you folks with your vast knowledge about liberal and progressive history and politics, but I DO think you're doing the readers and commenters here a disfavor by making this the tiny enclave of new thought! This won't change PolSci in any way, we simply don't have that influence (no matter what Technorati says :D), but it will expose our folks to criticism, even ridicule, if they try to apply what they've learned here at other sites and other discussions.

Because you may talk about "fake populism" in colloquial discussions without much controversy, but if you try to make it sound as if this is a clearly defined concept this will be met with resistance in more academic discussions. You may ridicule Wikipedia as much as you like, but fact is, it IS based on consensus, and that there is not a single article referring to "fake populism" shows that this really is an outsider view. And making us people here use phrases in a different meaning than the rest of the world simply is not a good idea. So, if there is something to your discrimination between different kinds of populism, you should fight for that in the academic world first.

If this is worth fighting for at all. As I see it, and no replay of the same old same old arguments will change that, it is simply a manipulative way of framing the discussion about populism. I suspect that by differentiating between "fake" and "real" populism, you just try to avoid questions about negative consequences of populism. Of course, your "real" populism can't have any, all the disturbing sides only apply to "fake" populism! Sry, but I don't buy that. There simply is no clear cut divide, it's an artificial and arbitrary concept, and the whole thing serves no other purporse than to make it easier to reject criticsm of progressive populism. And imho that's intellectually dishonest.

Your mileage may vary, but pls accept that I won't follow you on this issue. I made my point clear, your stated all your arguments, nothing to be gained from letting this discussion drag on forever. No big deal, and it sure looks like nobody else here cares. But after all this time discussing here, showing that I'm an honest guy and a good, if sometimes controversial, progressive, I think I deserve better than to be smeared as being full of shit when there is one incident where I am in an honest dispute, ok?


[ Parent ]
Uh, no misunderstanding about "the tiny enclave of new thought", pls! (0.00 / 0)
I didn't mean to say that it's a bad idea to go beyond sheer mainstream theory here. What I mean is, PLS don't use established terms in a new, unsupported way! Would be much better if you would find new terms, to make the difference clear. Or else we'll really get into an Orwellian newspeak situation, where our discussions will be totally misleading for any outsider who uses the common definition of the words.  

[ Parent ]
One other point: If, at least, John would use "real populism"... (0.00 / 0)
..all of the time, this would alert unsuspecting readers that he is using the phrase in a special meaning. But after passingly (and I really think much too casually) introducing the idea in psrt I, he shortens "real populism" to "populism", and that's where it becomes really confusing! And he doesn't give any hint that the definition he gives in part II is actually much more narrower than the commonly used one. I mean, really, if you're in dispute with the mainstream view of PolSci, you should really take more care to make your point clear, and not let the sharpness of your ideas be clouded by sloppy language! Not that I fulfill these requirements myself, I know, but I'm not the rebel here, and I never presented myself as an academic or a scholar...

[ Parent ]
Look to the bottom (0.00 / 0)
This narrow format is annoying.

[ Parent ]
Gray, "populism" is not "an established term" (4.00 / 1)
It's a widely used term. Forty years ago, per the Gellner book, the term was problematic. According to Wiki, it's problematic today. And it's a loaded term, and is mostly used in a pejorative or condescending way by people whose whole being is anti-populist.

[ Parent ]
OpenLeft is the right place to fight this battle (4.00 / 1)
But is OpenLeft the right place to fight that battle?

Yes. This is a political question. It's not the kind of thing that can be decided by academic consensus. Academics sometimes are politically disengaged and sometimes have political agendas, but in either case they are among the least likely people to give a fair reading to populism. Academic populist studies is a bit like nativist immigrant studies or imperial orientalism.

As I said, I am unimpressed by the academic discourse about populism. Why shouldn't I be? Gellner's book tried to define the term, without much success in my opinion. The Wiki to which you yourself referred admitted that the term populism is almost undefined and is used in many different senses even within academia.

With a little reading of social science history you find that many areas of it are perishable -- read the social science of 50 or 75 years ago (not what has survived and is still read, but the average stuff of the time) and some of it seems totally ridiculous.

As far as I know, populism was not used as a generic term before the fifties, and the coinage of the social science term "populism" was grounded on a tendentious misrepresention of American Populism (plus a silly identification of Populists with Narodniiks based on sililarity of names) by a political group of American ex-Marxist anti-Marxist cold war liberals.

I never denied the possibility of bad (racist) populism, but fake (corporate) populism is a different thing. I don't see why my terminology here should make you fly into rage.

Left academics tend to identify themselves with administrative left politics of one type or another (American liberal, social democratic, Marxist-Leninist), and for politics of this  type populism is a nuisance at best. And in general, the tendency is to key on the worst populists (Tom Watson at the end of his life, Huey Long, Gerald L K Smith, George Wallace) while condescendingly only half-admitting the good side.

The motivation behind my recuperation of the term populist is my recognition that most of the progressive energy in American politics between 1865 and 1940 came from  groups describable as populist, and that the populists themselves were not the angry, ignorant peasants that they are assumed to have been.

But going back to but is OpenLeft the right place to fight that battle? -- well, any populist would say yes, and any antipopulist (academic or otherwise) would say no.

And I don't know much about European politics, but from what's been said here and miscellaneous scraps of things I've heard over the years, it seems that the once-majoritarian European left has suffered administrative-academic capture just as the American Democratic Party has, and that this may have something to do with the fact that theEuropean Left has been moving right too.


[ Parent ]
This "Fringe" Charge Is Just Totally Silly (0.00 / 0)
Which may be why can't take it seriously.

The distinction John is drawing is quite clear, and not the least bit arbitrary, subjective or even ideological. (Not that there's anything wrong with ideology.)

"Fake populism" is astroturfing writ large. To try to dismiss this observation by calling it "fringe" sounds like something Rush Limbaugh would do.  (Or of course, the astroturfers themselves.)

The only reason you think of it as a "fringe" position is because you're hanging out with the wrong crowd.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Sry for being so mainstram. (0.00 / 0)
But would you pls show some evidence supporting your opinion that this isn't a fringe view? Who else supports John's definition, except you and the late Richard Hofstadter???

And if you reread the discussion of part I again, you'll find that I came up with astroturfing as the only example of "fake populism" I could think of, and John dismissed that. And John also dismissed the TeaParty movement as being populist, despite it consisting of a significant part of "the people" and is clearly protesting an elite, the Dem administration and political leadership. According to the more common view, certainly a populist movement, according to John, not.

Hmm, Paul, do you remember the stuff we discussed in the comments to part I? You sure you understand John's definition, and that is much narrower in scope than the commonly used one?


[ Parent ]
One other point: Aren't you shifting the goalposts here? (0.00 / 0)
John already admitted that his view is not in line with the definitions used in PolSci. And now you blame me for saying, this is a fringe view, and you oppose this! Well, as I see it, either you are right, or John. But logic says it can't be both of you.

[ Parent ]
You have responded to nothing I've said (0.00 / 1)
You just reiterate.

And don't play the civility card, asshole. This is the blogosphere, fortunately, not a seminar room.

You really do believe that the mushy academic / journalistic definition of "populism" is a scientific one, like the definition of argon, don't you?

And that somewhere in the university there are experts who have the answers to all political questions, and that no unaccredited layman can question these answers.

No one believing that kind of thing would be at all likely to have any sympathy for or understanding of populism, of course. This discussion was doomed. (But sort of fun anyway).

You have succeeded in  making yourself into a specimen case of the very thing that I'm arguing against. Please take your place on the museum shelf.


[ Parent ]
But since you mentione Wiki (0.00 / 0)
Academic and scholarly definitions of populism vary widely and, among both journalists and scholars, the term is often employed in loose, inconsistent and undefined ways to denote appeals to 'the people', 'demagogy' and 'catch-all' politics or as a receptacle for new types of parties whose classification observers are unsure of. Another factor held to diminish the value of 'populism' in some societies is that, as Margaret Canovan notes in her 1981 study Populism, unlike labels such as 'conservative' or 'socialist', the meanings of which have been 'chiefly dictated by their adherents', contemporary populists rarely call themselves 'populists' and usually reject the term when it is applied to them by others. Some exceptions to this pattern of pejorative usage exist, notably in the United States, but it appears likely that this is due to the memories and traditions of earlier democratic movements (e.g. farmers' movements, New Deal reform movements, and the civil rights movement) that were often called (and called themselves) populist.

As usual with Wiki, which is usually co-written by a mixed group, the Wiki article is a garbled mess with some good stuff in it. While recognizing in several places that the term is ill-defined, it wanders allo over histoary slapping it on things. It barely mentions the actual Populists and Narodniks who originated the name, and gives no attention to history of the social science use of the term. There are a lot of mushy definitions in social science, and "populist" is one of them.


[ Parent ]
No disagreement. But if you see all those definitions of populism... (0.00 / 0)
...in a graphical way, say, as a circle where the center is the most commonly used defintion, isn't it true that your view is way apart from it, somewhere in the outer regions?

And then, there certainly are lots of other people who have differing views, and who aren't mainstream, either. Why should anyone support your position, and not another one? Especially when your definition includes an arbitrary discrimination between "fake" and "real" populism, an artificial discrimination that is very difficult to make in practice?

As I see it, you should better write an article for a peer reviewed scientist publication. If your logic holds water, and you have the evidence to bolster its significance, it should be no problem to convice others of the validity of your view. Especially if there isn't a good definition of populism yet, but only a lot of mushy attempts at it.


[ Parent ]
Go your own way, Gray (0.00 / 0)
As a populist, I totally reject the idea that nothing that doesn't come from peer-reviewed publications can be taken seriously. This really becomes circular, because the literature on populism is written by the people in the world who are least likely to be sympathetic to populism -- accredited experts. Both in Europe and the US academia, administration, and the left political parties have congealed into one big immovable blob, and that's one of the kinds of things that motivates populist resistance.  

You are my least likely audience, and the ideas about politics that I am opposing seem to be very central to you. Anti-populism is ingrained in the Democratic Party, much of the left, and much of academia, and researching populism and arguing against the received view has been my main project over the last six months or so, and it's been the purpose of every single one of my posts here at Open Left.

And you disagree, and probably always will disagree. So be it.


[ Parent ]
What is the alternative to peer review? (0.00 / 0)
Not showing your ideas to any experts in the field, and vehemently attacking any criticism that may still come up? Sounds a bit like navel gazing, imho...

And yes, as long as you don't come up with arguments that are logically consistent and give a good reason for the strange black and white thinking that shows in the discrimination between "fake" and "real" populism, I will disagree. So be it. No big deal.


[ Parent ]
You haven't listened to a fucking word I've said. (0.00 / 0)
My forum is here, not in academia. You're here, but you seem to be waiting for approval from academia before you even dare to think about what I'm saying. Your subjection to experts means that you are and always will be an anti-populist and, in many respects, anti-political and anti-democratic. Which is, in fact, a  description of administrative liberalism, which is my main adversay.

I did define "fake populism" several times. I've also said that populism isn't a style or a tactic, but a movement. I'm trying to define a usable definition of "populism", based on American political history, for people doing politics. People who are in the game can't afford to submit themselves to people who have deliberately taken themselves out of the game.

I have also assembled and posted a 37-item bibliography, which is selected from a much longer list. Instead of reiterating your ignorance, you might look at it.

You will not accept what I say about populism, ever, because like many liberals, radicals, Democrats, and academics, you are politically  a committed anti-populist. So be it. You're the person I'm arguing against, my anti-audience.

But your quasi-academic methodological objections to what I'm saying are crap, amount to misrepresentation, and to all intents and purposes amount to the demand that people who call themselves populists, even if they are well-read on the topic,  get permission from the accredited experts before they do so. I cannot imagine anything more ridiculous.


[ Parent ]
Oh, I "listened" alright, it's just that I think... (0.00 / 0)
...this doesn't lead anywhere....

And as for your baseless allegations and interpretations of who I are and what I believe - I really think you can put your fantasy to a more rewarding use.
:D


[ Parent ]
You lie (0.00 / 0)
I probably wrote a thousand words on your behalf, and few or none of your responses addressed anything specific I said. I began in good will, but the goodwill is gone.

I propose that we end this discussion here and part as enemies. If you choose to harass me in the future that's your prerogative, but in my opinion that will be fruitless.

I also suggest that arguing as hard as you have been doing with little or no knowledge of the topic does not speak well for your character. And I remain insulted and angered by your insistence that any reevaluation of populism be done only by properly accredited scholars, but in any case not by me.


[ Parent ]
Yeah, the right looks desperately backward (4.00 / 2)
Some are Jeffersonans, some are Hamiltonians, some are gold bugs, some are anti-federalists and a lot of them mix and match, switching switch instantly in the middle of a sentence.

The populists were anti-traditionalist big-government interventionists, though they did believe in low taxes and no government debt. They totally despised the political process they knew, for good reason, and weren't big into proceduralism.

Next week, a new topic. Progressives, populists, radicals, liberals, and Bourbons during WWI. Mencken, Bryan, and the Jazz Age. I'm glad I tied up this topic, though, for the record.


right-wing vs left-wing populism (0.00 / 0)
Right-wing populism is non-class based and was an essential ingredient of fascism. It is based on irrational fears and confused analysis of problems. Left-wing populism is class based. It is based in a realistic view of real problems. People have the capacity for intelligence and pragmatism and also stupidity and hatred.

Regarding your historical observations of populism, how depressing is it that 150 years ago common folks were debating monetary policy, and now we've been dumbed down to the point where talk of monetary policy would draw blank stares from 99% of the population. Seems to me we could use more populism. In this regard, I consider Paultards interest in monetary policy to be progress. They may not yet have come to sensible conclusions, but at least they are thinking and questioning conventional "wisdom." It's a start.

miasmo.com


[ Parent ]
excellent diary (4.00 / 7)
i think one thing that's missing is the basic failure of technocratic Democrats to understand that populism as a social force, is going to exist whether they want it to or not- you can't have massive inequality and the formal mechanism of a capitalist liberal democracy without some form of populism.  The question is whether future populists are going to lean more towards rightwing Glenn beck and Lou Dobbs followers or deluded Ron Paul advocates (apparently property rights is populuist now !?!??!!) rather than Michael Moore.  Apparently, the leadership of the Democratic party as it stands today apparently would prefer to have a technocratic ideology and run against Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck than to promote substantive democracy.

Tied to this is classism and a disdain for the language and the ways of communication of people who are not super well formally educated but understand FAR BETTER than the upper upper classes what the health care debate is really about, and generally speaking people whose knowledge is born of experience and not of ideology or faddishness.

And it is to remedy the latter in the democratic party that a populist politics is necessary to save both the democratic party and probably the american people.  hopefully once this is well established, we can talk about transnational populism :)


Could you please expand on this? (4.00 / 1)
[R]ecruiting discouraged voters is damn difficult, but it's pretty much the only hope there is.

Whom would you have recruit these voters?

The Democrats have had an easy time getting elected since 2006, with little benefit to the little guy and gal.

What's your preference?

a) A populist third-party
b) Democratic primary challenges?
c) Keep electing Democrats and hope for change (Lame as that sounds, it was a big hit with the kids in 2008. You could look it up.)


B, primary challenges (4.00 / 1)
At the state level, maybe third parties. There are multiple problems with a national third party.

The weak spot of everything I've written so far is that I'm not sure how many people are willing to put in the time. Anything that would work would be very time-consuming and require a lot of people. There are a lot of disgruntled, somewhat aware people, but the right wing mobilizes theirs better than we mobilize ours.

Rightists do political stuff from a feeling of duty, whereas liberals tend to think of politics as just another leisure-time option. That's my jaundiced view, anyway.

One assumption I've made is that some people might get involved once things touch them personally. That's not a gimme, though.


[ Parent ]
Privilege and Subjugation Mentality (4.00 / 1)
I think in some ways the rightists are better than we are at arguing from the position that their way of life is completely under attack.  Because their worldview is in many ways of the world as a constant battle and war, the idea that you could ever put down your arms and stop fighting for the cause is ludicrous.  Why would you even want to?  They also of course manage to completely shift focus from true oppression (the government-business alliance that prevents government from fulfilling its responsibilities to the most vulnerable citizens) to bogus oppression ('socialism' and 'big government').

I think there is a disconnect between those with progressive values who are essentially privileged (even if not in the top 1%, you can still be pretty privileged) and secure and those who are actually subjugated (people of color, low-income people).  As a recent graduate of a pretty 'activist', but high-income, progressive college, it definitely strikes me that politics and activism are undertaken as you say as leisure, or hobby, and rarely out of raw need and urgency.  But that's a really narrow group, so it may not even be all that representative.

Figuring out how to be a progressive college graduate transplant to Ohio:  http://citizenobie.wordpress.com/


[ Parent ]
LIberals Want To Get Married And Raise Kids (4.00 / 2)
because they're much more your normal well-adjusted human being than not.

Unfortunately, the world they now inhabit is anything but normal and well-adjusted.

It's the very pathology of conservatives--seeing the world as an always-hostile place--that makes them better suited for the rather hostile reality that their own policy preferences have done so much to help create.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Fortunately I'm pathological (0.00 / 0)
No more houses or kids for me.  

[ Parent ]
Yeah, once around the block was enough :-) (N/T) (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
If the Democratic Party is to be saved (or, rather, to be made useful to average Americans) (4.00 / 1)
There needs to be a far greater recognition of how badly it represents the interests and values of liberals.

The occasional hip primary challenge is a pleasing start, but as long as we allow ourselves to be incessantly distracted by tribal nonsense (Look over there, Sarah Palin! Bobby Jindal! Joe Wilson!) and let slide the Dem leadership's own penchant for marginalizing real lefties, it's hard to see anything much changing for the better.

Unfortunately, all-too-many Creative Class Democrats think tittering at Rachel Maddow's tea-bagger jokes is standing up for progress.

I don't see a lot of hope for a popular, progressive, national third-party, either. At this point, though, I see even less hope for the Democratic Party to be anything like the party I once bashed Naderites for challenging.


[ Parent ]
They'd have to be successful challenges (4.00 / 5)
A rather small dissident contingent (5 or so) in the Senate could change things if they were aggressive and stayed on message. Just getting the word out there and making noise can change the situation for everyone. It will become harder for other Senators to keep faking it.

Some of the dissident Senators during the 20s and 30s started off by denouncing the rest of the Senate, rather than by playing politics for small improvements. There are a few good guys in there now, but the place tends to swallow people up, especially if they start thinking about effectiveness and realism (which are the loser wonk shibboleths).  


[ Parent ]
Quite True (4.00 / 2)
It only takes a small group to make a big difference, if they don't adopt a self-defeating strategy.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Sounds good (4.00 / 2)
To support such a thing, the progressive elites (A-list bloggers, MoveOns, etc.) would have to change their tune quite a bit.

They rolled over for Obama's retrograde post-partisanship, and they rolled over for "realistic" (as it were) health-care reform.

Frankly, nothing I've seen in the last two years suggests there is the backbone or vision in the opinion-leader class to help make such a change happen, or even to entertain any criticism of how proggy Conventional Wisdom is made and defended.


[ Parent ]
I'm thinking forward (4.00 / 8)
After the Obama disapointment, what next?

We're better off now than in 2005, that's for sure. BUt only so-so.

FDL, Blue American, and Kos are all talking about primarying people. To me that's worth it even if a Republican replaces the bad Democrat. We wouldn't want to replace 40 bad Democrats with Republicans, but 1 or 2 wouldn't kill us, if we also replace some bad Democrats with good ones.

Obama isn't wonderful, but I'm old and I remember all the way back to 2003, and the improvement has been enormous.


[ Parent ]
How are we better off? (0.00 / 0)
And isn't "looking forward not backward" what Santayana warned us about?

[ Parent ]
Who cares what Santayana thought? (4.00 / 3)
I'm going to let you figure out how we're better off for yourself. I realize that 2003, when Bush had 75% approval ratings and was getting his way on everything, and when there was almost no resistance, was a long time ago.

[ Parent ]
Now there's even less resistance (0.00 / 0)
As Obama continues Bush's policies.

Re: who wants to learn from the recent past? Not a goddamned soul, as far as I can tell.


[ Parent ]
I don't get it (4.00 / 2)
People aren't rolling over for Obama. This is the first time in years that I've thought that the populace might come to life.

If you mean less street protest, sure, but Bush loved those.

I'm thinking forward in terms of what we do after we've given up on Obama. Is that wrong? Because if we don't think forward, people will just give up and mope.


[ Parent ]
Greenwald and Sirota have (4.00 / 1)
... frequently noted how Obama supporters regularly defend him for practicing the very policies they used to despise under Bush.

Exploring and criticizing the culture that makes such behavior commonplace is a taboo among taboos. Can't question the tribe. Move along folks, nothing to see here.


[ Parent ]
For Christ's sake (4.00 / 4)
What's better now is people like Greenwald, Sirota, and Jane Hamsher who are resisting Obama. What I'm talking about is primarying the bought Democrats.

You seem to be in a terrible hurry to be angry and feel sorry for yourself. I've spent decades in futile leftist groups. All that time I've had to deal with the evident fact that we weren't able to get our message out, and that most Americans seemed to disagree with us.

Things seem better now than they have for a long time. But we can't just snap out fingers and expect everything to happen right away, because we're starting from a very low point.


[ Parent ]
Accepting weak goals like "public option" (0.00 / 0)
Isn't resisting Obama. It's accepting his sanitized "centrism" as the outer edge of the possible.

Thanks for the ad hominem conversation-stoppers, though.


[ Parent ]
Oh, and most Americans support (0.00 / 0)
More-progressive agendas than the Dems we elect are inclined to stand up for, such as single-payer health care and ending the wars.

[ Parent ]
The revolution's there to be made. (0.00 / 0)
Make it, if you think that you can.

More at the bottom of the thread.


[ Parent ]
Dude, shouldn't you be arguing with (4.00 / 1)
Lanny Davis or someone like that, rather than complaining to a guy who's advocating increased populism and primarying lame Dems?

miasmo.com

[ Parent ]
I told John I agree with his objective, did I not? n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Are Greenwald and Sirota not A-list bloggers? (4.00 / 2)
But according to you, all the A-list bloggers have "rolled over for Obama's retrograde post-partisanship." If all the A-list bloggers had actually "rolled over for Obama's retrograde post-partisanship," I would have stopped reading them. But I just don't see it. In the left blogosphere that I see, Rahm Emmanual and his ilk are about as popular as dog shit, while Obama himself comes in for plenty of criticism.

miasmo.com

[ Parent ]
Your Problem Is (4.00 / 1)
you live in the real world, instead of your narcissistic revolutionary imagination.

So sad!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Paul, that's meaningful how? (0.00 / 0)
Any chance you might be specific?

[ Parent ]
Name any A-list blogger who... (0.00 / 0)
... urged us to use the post Super-Tuesday phase of the primaries to force the remaining candidates to earn their progressive bona fides (as opposed to coronating the resolutely "post-partisan" Obama)?

There weren't any.

Sirota, while occasionally noting how over-the-top many Obama supporters were and are, was sometimes quite giddy with his own support.

Greenwald, by his own accounting, almost completely took a pass on writing about the "horserace," and almost all of his criticisms of Obama were reserved for after he became the presumptive nominee.


[ Parent ]
Wow! (4.00 / 2)
Since there are plenty of examples of A-List bloggers who criticize Obama (Greenwald, Sirota, Paul Rosenberg, Jane Hamsher, Digby - just to name a few right off the top of my head,) you have arbitrarily narrowed the scope of the issue to "the post Super-Tuesday phase of the primaries." If I name some specific examples, will you then narrow the criteria to the second week of the post Super-Tuesday phase of the primaries? I do remember prominent bloggers "urging us to use the post Super-Tuesday phase of the primaries to force the remaining candidates to earn their progressive bona fides (as opposed to coronating the resolutely "post-partisan" Obama)." You are wrong on this. Maybe it wasn't enough for you, but it wasn't non-existent.

Let me offer you the perspective of someone who probably agrees with you 90% (me):

Bob sneezes in the direction of Joe without covering his mouth. Joe says "Dude, use a kleenex next time." Bob says "Sorry. You're right."

Or this:

Bob sneezes in the direction of Larry without covering his mouth. Larry starts yelling at everyone in the room "You're all trying to kill me! You're all terrible people! You're the cause of all the health care problems!" Not one bit of mental energy will be expended by anyone in the room on the issue of sneezing on someone, because it all will be consumed by thoughts of what an irrational hyperbolic asshole Larry is.

Bob should have covered his mouth. But be Joe. Don't be Larry.

If you endlessly complain about how A-list bloggers never criticize Obama to A-list bloggers who routinely criticize Obama, no one is going to take you seriously. Stop exaggerating and over-generalizing, and people may listen to what you have to say.

miasmo.com


[ Parent ]
I'm thinking forward (4.00 / 1)
After the Obama disapointment, what next?

We're better off now than in 2005, that's for sure. BUt only so-so.

FDL, Blue American, and Kos are all talking about primarying people. To me that's worth it even if a Republican replaces the bad Democrat. We wouldn't want to replace 40 bad Democrats with Republicans, but 1 or 2 wouldn't kill us, if we also replace some bad Democrats with good ones.

Obama isn't wonderful, but I'm old and I remember all the way back to 2003, and the improvement has been enormous.


[ Parent ]
"I'm old... (0.00 / 0)
... and I remember back to 1970."

From that perspective, Obama's just a blip, and he looks a lot more like "Bush done right" every day.

I suppose "better late than never" for the people with the big megaphones to have figured that out, and hopefully it's not too late.  

Actually, I wouldn't blame them on bit for rebranding as "populists," since the "progressive" brand is looking more than a little shopworn, based on performance.

Double shot, sir? Cinnamon?

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
I gave up on Obama pretty early (0.00 / 0)
But Kucinich was out, Edwards was out, and I couldn't support Hillary because of her political past. It turned out that Obama was no better.

So I had to figure out where to go next. I supported Obama against McCain. Is that OK with you? Then what? I say, primarying weak demmocrats. You agree with that.

As I've said, long ago (25 years ago)  I gave up on conscience politics and correct position politics, and about that time I realized that we had a long row to hoe because we hadn't made our case to the electorate. It's not true that everyone would support us if we only were left enough.

So, while I think that the Democrats are overcautious, partly because of corruption and partly because of wonk problems, I still think strategically and realistically. "We want the world and we want it now" didn't work then and it won't work now.


[ Parent ]
I think you're guilty... (0.00 / 0)
... of being prematurely correct, VL. That can be a real problem.  

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  

[ Parent ]
Lovely to see you, Lambert (0.00 / 0)
I've liked other things you've written in other places, but as I just said on this thread, I found your posts here a week ago baffling and offensive.  

[ Parent ]
Well, I haven't changed... (0.00 / 0)
I post the same way pretty much all the time, have for years. So I think there's some other factor at play.

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  

[ Parent ]
Maybe I was wrong the other times (0.00 / 0)
Might you deign to respond to the other things I've said?

[ Parent ]
Well, since... (0.00 / 0)
... I'm an "asshole" -- is there some sort of rule that the first person to use that word gets to initiate the discussion of civility? I must have missed the memo -- is there a reason  for me to assume you'll listen and invest the time?

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  

[ Parent ]
Whine, whine (4.00 / 1)
Not a single word that you or VL posted on this thread or least week's thread had anything to do with the topic of the thread. You started off last week by assuming that I was an enemy and demanded that I prove otherwise by agreeing with you on a topic I didn't know much about, and which involved denouncing my friends on your say-so. And you kept at it.

That was uncivil, asshole. Civility isn't just about avoiding bad words, regardless of what your Sunday School teacher told you. I started off quite mildly.

As far as I know this is the first time I have come to dislike an internet acquaintance entirely on the basis of the way they behaved. Usually there's an element of disagreement, but in this case there's no real reason to believe that there is one. It's just you and the way you work.


[ Parent ]
A tip on thread management (0.00 / 0)
As for "demands," and this and that:

Jeepers! I'm not the front-pager here, and as Mr. Bowers has been kind enough to point out, I have no power over him. So, may I offer you a tip on thread management? It's really not necessary -- though I have, on occasion, fallen into this trap -- to respond to assholes at all. And it's often a better use of time. Of course, if an asshole manages to refute the point you're attempting to make in the post, that might make you look bad, but surely that's unlikely to happen, and it's small price to pay to avoid the annoyance.

* * *

How anybody can pose as a political theorist while upholding the "progressive" tribal equivalent of E.M. Forster's "If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country" is beyond my limited understanding.

Next you'll be saying, along with David Broder, that I came in and trashed the place, and it's not my place!

I look forward with pleasure to your continued clarification of the values that are truly important to you. I believe, with Captain Carrot, that "personal isn't the same as important." YMMV and, apparently, does.


I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
I have not enjoyed my conversation with you (0.00 / 0)
The actual issue got buried in personalities, that's for sure, but you seem convinced that it was me and not you.

Why you think that annoying the fuck out of people is the way to convince them, I don't know, but you seem committed to that strategy, and contemptuous of weak souls such as myself  who are offended by it. That seems like grievance-collector behavior to me.

You would have to be a very great prophet for your strategy to work, and as far as I'm concerned, you're not a very great prophet.


[ Parent ]
Anybody... (0.00 / 0)
... who puts the good opinion of his clique, and his own sense of annoyance and amour propre on a higher plane than substantive argumentation, probably is not persuadable in any case.

* * *

As I keep saying, personal is not the same as important. I do see how important "enjoyment" and lack of "annoyance" is to you -- and how little you enjoy, and are annoyed by, people who call bullshit on that. Useful data point!

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
OK, fuck off and die, grievance collector. (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
To continue (not finished) (0.00 / 0)
You can go around for the rest of your life deliberately pissing people off and claiming high political motives for what you're doing, but who cares? You're a fake.  

[ Parent ]
Very Good Diaries (0.00 / 0)
You make a very strong case, in my opinion, and I'm not speaking as a believer.  Let me introduce myself:

One is what I call the wonk demographic. A high proportion of Democratic voters are well-educated, middle-class folk who identify with the present leadership and dabble in free-lance, amateur wonk thinking of their own. Instead of making demands, which is the proper role of the rank and file, these Democrats kibitz the process, trying to guess in advance how the struggles will turn out and mimicking the pros who are really playing the game.


Thanks, Donna! (0.00 / 0)
Actually, I agree.

* * *

Especially about "mimicking the pros." It's like being in a sports bar where the guys holding the steins beieve they can actually affect the action they're seeing on the teebee.

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
Farms and political goals (4.00 / 3)
Although America's small farmer situation is currently dire, and therefore the political prospects there might look bleak, I'd like to draw attention to the perilous energy situation and what it means for the future, and suggest how the issue might be engaged through populist politics.

America's industrial agriculture and food distribution systems are completely dependent on cheap, plentiful oil (machinery and transportation) and natural gas (for fertilizers and pesticides). As these fossil fuels deplete and therefore supply becomes tenuous and price becomes ever more volatile and trends upward, these agricultural and transportation systems will break down.

The gist is that America is going to need millions of small farmers in the future if it's going to be able to feed itself. So if I had the resources to start building a movement, perhaps I'd draw up this program:

1. To educate and insist upon this need;

2. To argue that farming is a noble, moral way of life (not just a "profession"), and that for millions of Americans to return to farming, and from there a more relocalized, self-sufficient economy, would be a return to our spiritual roots and away from the horribly wrong path we took with corporatism and financialization;

3. To argue that this is the core from which would radiate the way out of our social, economic, environmental, and energy difficulties;

4. As for the political program, it would have to attack existing corporatist subsidy and land use policy. Just revolutionizing the Farm Bill would be an herculean task. But the basic plan would be a New Deal-type new small farmer program, providing assistance and training.

(That's just a basic idea; I haven't fleshed it out in detail yet.)

So that's one example of what could be the basis for an organization or a part of a broader movement.

http://attempter.wordpress.com


Are you familiar with this? (4.00 / 4)
http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/2...

I think my favorite part is here

People will relax and trust you when you're not trying to dazzle them with brainpower. It's okay to be the smartest guy in the room, but that shouldn't be the point of it. This is a liberal weakness, because they often seem to operate on the dual fuels of statistics and sputtering. They foolishly believe that the smartest, most morally equitable, most well-reasoned argument is the right one.

Well, of course it's the right one. It's just not necessarily the one that's going to WIN. And when they point, justifiably, at their idea which is backed up by all the data, all the statistics, and say "But, but this is the only logical solution", the implication is "... by not arriving at this yourself, you are stupid." And once somebody thinks you called them stupid, you've lost them forever. "What's the matter with Kansas?" Nothing, you supercilious fuck, what's the matter with you? Guess who I'm voting for every time you lecture me that you're on my side, and I just have to see that? Yeah, the other guy. Bye now. (this is tied into another rule of stand-up -- "You can never convince anyone of anything", which we'll deal with later)



Montani semper liberi

Re-reading (4.00 / 2)
Gotta love a physics major, turned stand-up comic, turned Cosby show writer, turned movie writer, turned blogger, turned comic book writer, turned producer and head writer of Leverage.

More than anything, this one line you quote says it all:

"What's the matter with Kansas?" Nothing, you supercilious fuck, what's the matter with you?

I haven't read that in many years.  The comment at the end about Hillary Clinton reminded me of something I thought she screwed up on her campaign.  She should have run almost exclusively on her Senate record.  Everyone knew the other stuff, anyway.


[ Parent ]
Agreed On All Counts (4.00 / 2)
except, of course, that my dad taught at Nebraska for a year.  So "What's the matter with Kansas?" is a perfectly normal question for me. The Cornhusker's answer (even though I was just 3 at the time): "What isn't?"

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Thanks for the link. (4.00 / 1)
I notice from the date that the author very much had John Kerry in mind. It was very clear at the time that Republicans were shitting their pants at the thought of running against Howard Dean and did everything they could to knock him out and clear the path for a stiff like Kerry. As someone astutely noted at the time, Howard Dean was the most progressive candidate who was "sufficiently butch" to actually get elected (clearly implying that Kucinich was insufficiently "butch.")

miasmo.com

[ Parent ]
Thx, Sadie, that's an important point for me! :D (4.00 / 1)
I'll try to remember that in the next discussion.

[ Parent ]
Against the day (4.00 / 7)
Populism arises out of need. One of the best parts of your whole series, John, is in the comments, where you deal directly with how much time, energy, etc. it takes to turn that need into a political force. I might add that it also takes a willingness to socialize on a regular basis with people who aren't exactly our cup of tea. I suspect that this is the principal reason why the middle class -- or what used to be the middle class -- is so hard to interest in real politics. They retain the social values, if not the incomes of your better class of people, and being that there isn't much else left of their pretensions, they cling to them.

Farmers and the industrial working class of years gone by, and their families, were in real danger of starving, being brutalized, and being deprived of a normal life-span by the ways they were forced to make their living. If someone offered them a political solution -- from the Grange, to the Wobblies, to the AFL-CIO, they grabbed at it. For them, there was no doubt whatever what was at stake.

Ask a college kid today, or a Wal*Mart employee, why seventy-five years ago the term scab was the worst thing you could call anyone -- the lowest of the low -- I think you'd find that a) they'd never heard the word, and once it was explained to them that b) they would protest that people have a right to make their own deal with their employers. My point, which is a corollary to yours, is that you can't have populism without populists, and that you can't have populists, or revive a populist morality, until the bread and circuses are in much shorter supply than they are today.

I believe that the sheer rapacity and callousness of our current government/business alliance will lead us inevitably to that day. They simply can't help themselves. Even if they understood that every victory they win over us is a Pyrrhic one, and leads everyone closer to disaster, the pressures of their own class relations are as hard to oppose for them as theri depredations are for us.

If a new, substantial populism does arise, you're right, it won't look like anything we've seen before (the farmers, and for the most part, the industrial working class, are long gone) but I'm convinced that it will have similar roots. Maybe it'll look like Mike Davis' Planet of Slums, or maybe it'll look like Blade Runner, I have no way of telling. One thing I'm certain of is that it won't look like the Democratic Party.


The new populism (4.00 / 3)
will be built out of Wal Mart and fast food workers. Whoever can organize them, and convince them to vote, will carry the day. But like Emerson says, this is going to be a huge amount of work, and not sexy wonky work.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Also Mexicans (4.00 / 3)
It can't be an ethnic or life-style based group, and this will be a real problem. The original pPopulists were anti-immigration, though many of them were of immigrant stock.

[ Parent ]
Socialism in one country is as bad an idea now as it ever was. (4.00 / 2)
If we want people to have a chance, we can't restrict ourselves to thinking about what's happening in this country as something which we can fix in isolation. An internationalist perspective has to be part of the effort from day 1, or failure is guaranteed.

If you want to talk about a hard sell, this has got to be it, and it would be even if everybody and his dog had just stepped off the boat. Even in the late nineteenth century, when almost everybody had just stepped off the boat, it was a hard sell -- not as hard as now, but by no means easy either.


[ Parent ]
wonderful comment (0.00 / 0)
Two+ decades ago, when our local union was in a court fight with several construction contractors, (one the second largest in the field) whial watching corporate jets disgorge lawyers in three piece suits, I was struck by the same trueism you just spoke of.

Still waiting for things to get bad enough for the dramatic change we all long for. And hopeing they haven't grown sophisticated enough to know how far to push and then stop just short of the backlash.

Government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob..... FDR


[ Parent ]
Right-wing "populists" and libertarianism (4.00 / 4)
This has been a very good discussion.

One curious thing about the current crop of right-wing faux populists is the way they have deftly transferred the populists' suspicion of corporate and private concentrations of wealth and power and directed that suspicion toward government power instead.

With the economic melt-down starting last year, a few of them (like Dobbs) made noises against the banks, but that theme was quietly replaced with fear of big government.

Its is astonishing they get away with such obvious misdirection.  But I suppose as long as no one is pointing the finger of blame where it belongs, toward corporate wealth and power, they can continue to pull it off.  


Partly this is legitimate (4.00 / 2)
One of the problems with Democrats is that they deal with the populace mostly via the leaders of vote-contracting groups and the heads of various  bureaucracies (the Director of the Dept of Education, the President of Harvard U., the Superintendant of the public schools. Government offices can develop interests of their own even though they function as standins for the public interest.

But free-marketers and libertarians drive it into the ground, and beyond worshipping the market n(which is wrong even if the market is fair and competitive) they are blind to the effects of mosize and monopoly.

I read something recently by the conservative economist James Buchanan, and what he had to say about the inner functioning of governmental offices and public-service interest groups was interesting. But he dismissed the idea that corporate power has negative effects with about five words. A real blind spot.


[ Parent ]
False Populism (4.00 / 1)
On one level, I think it is wrong to call right-wing populism "false".  One can go after a wide variety of elitists and still be a true populist.  For example, if the military took over, there could be a populist uprising against the generals, even if they were not rich.

On a deeper level, though, it is false populism because their elite targets aren't the real threat.  Sometimes they aren't even elites.  Beck, Limbaugh, and the rest target "elite" bureaucrats who don't let you say bad things about blacks, for example.  

But obviously, most of their targets are elites; the president, the media, and so on.  Liberal populists have problems with many of the same people, but from a different angle -- a false and incorrect one.

Obviously, we can define populism in such a way that right-wing populism is "false", but I'm not convinced that is the most honest or helpful approach.  Instead, I think it is necessary to focus on the union of liberal and populist beliefs.


[ Parent ]
I restrict the term "fake populism".... (4.00 / 4)
....to populism without an actual populist program, especially if it is funded by business, especially if it's secretly funded by business, and especially if it's dominated by a charismatic, authoritarian leader who makes all the decisions.

George Wallace did have populist bona fides, and I'd call him a real rightwing racist populist.

The main targets of the original Populist were finance, the big monopolies, and their front men and lackeys. They were less driven by resentment and hatred, except agiants those specific targets, than people imagine.


[ Parent ]
One of the criticisms of the populists.... (4.00 / 1)
.... was that they didn't have a clear class analysis, so that labor, small businessmen, poor framers, and and even fairly businessmen and farmers could all be populists if they were non-predatory.

During the 30s in Minnesota small bankers in the Independent Bankers' Association supported the left populist farmer labor party. Some stuck with the FLP even while it was being destroyed by red-baiting which was not entirely fraudulent.

I recently talked to a woman whose grandfather lost a lot of his net worth because he refused to foreclose on bankrupt farmers during the thirties. Another local man did foreclose, and went on to form a regional retailing chain (Herbergers). Herberger was still remembered hated when I was young, 25 years after the fact.The son of the good guy still lived in town -- still in business, but poorer than he would have been -- but finally went bankrupt during an ag downturn in the 70s or 80s.(But the new populism shouldn't get nostalgic).

But what I was going to say is that the mushy class thinking of the Populists had its communitarian good points. And it's sort of funny to see ex-Communist anti-Communist liberals like Hofstadter continuing to relay the Marxist criticism.


How True Is This Charge, Though? (4.00 / 1)
I understand the charge, and it makes perfect sense from a Marxist perspective.  But from a pragmatist POV (a Jamesian pragmatist, not a Karl Rove/Rahm Emmanuel one), that perspective doesn't have a whole lot of credibility.

William Domhoff argues that we should count everyone as part of "us" who sincerely wants to be part of us, regardless of income or wealth.  And simply being non-predatory seems like a pretty good test of who "us" ought to be.

That's not to say that we should ignore everything else.  I'm just saying it makes damn good sense as a basic moral/political distinction.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Not very true at all (0.00 / 0)
Remembering the old arguments amongst us New Leftists, it seems to me even now that the populist argument against Marxism was not only exactly as you've described it, but as valid today as it was then. Marx was a helluva guy and all that, but the idea that his analysis could be turned into a scientific catechism, and applied to the detriment of good sense by people who absolutely, positively lacked the common touch was -- to put it mildly -- more than a little offputting, even without knowing about the gulags. Still is, for that matter.

[ Parent ]
You reminded me of something. (4.00 / 3)
The second and ultimately most important target is discouraged voters. Voters are discouraged because they think that no one speaks to them and no one has anything to offer them. This is OK with the parties. The Democratic party bosses, by and large, don't want new voters because they might make inconvenient demands, and as for the Republicans, voter discouragement and voter intimidation are a big part of their game. Democrats have responded very weakly to this; partly because they have their donors to thinki of. (The Democrats' failure to defend ACORN, and their general coolness to Jesse Jackson a couple of decades back are a couple of cases of this -- though it isn't just a black thing).

And yes, recruiting discouraged voters is damn difficult, but it's pretty much the only hope there is. If we can't do that we should just quit.


This reminds me of a conversation I had with a DFA trainer when I went to a DFA seminar at the beginning of the year.*  Somehow we got to talking about how Obama won, and the DFA guy basically said (sorry, it's been a few months, so I can't recall his exact words) the way Obama won and his campaign were an anomaly, and we couldn't count on that happening again.  The underlying assumption seemed to be one of disempowerment.  He didn't seem to care to try to understand why Obama managed to do so well.  He just chalked it up to a bunch of various factors that no one had any control over.  He assumed there was nothing we could do to make it happen again.  Now granted, he didn't say any of that directly, but it was the sub-context of the point he was making, and it's something that's stuck with me (obviously).  I've always felt he was wrong to have that attitude, and you explain very well why it is I feel that way.

* I don't want to name names.  I learned a great deal from him during the seminar, and this brief moment was not indicative to me of his general demeanor toward activists and activism in general, which was incredibly positive and helpful.

Health insurance is not health care.
If you don't fight, you can't win.
Never give up. Never Surrender.
Watch out for flying kabuki.


Populism has been a major political force throughout US history (4.00 / 3)
from the very start, and those who most realized and were best able to exploit it, both sincerely and not, have generally been those who held the reins of power. The US Revolution, while initiated and led by elites throughout, could not possibly have succeeded without widespread populist support, among the general population and in order to raise militias and the continental army. Shays and the Whiskey rebellions were populist movements that had a major impact on the direction that the early republic took. The Bill of Rights ended up in the constitution due in large part to populist insistance. And the Federalists ultimately failed, and Jeffersonian Republicans (and later Jacksonian Democrats, their successors) succeeded, in large part because they understood, knew how and were better able to leverage populism, which the former did not. What Hamilton, Adams et al did not get, and/or were unable/unwilling to do, Jefferson, Madison, Clinton, Jackson & Co. did and were. And so on.

Kind of makes sense in an elective democracy, you'd think, no?

Structurally, in terms of the law, economy, financial system, military, size, power and nature of government, etc., the US is more Hamiltonian than Jeffersonian. Especially these days. But politically, it's the other way around. The faction that best knowns how to listen to and exploit the people, tends to remain in power the longest. FDR knew it. LBJ knew it. I'm not sure why Obama doesn't seem to get it. Yet, one hopes.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


I Agree, But (4.00 / 1)
I think it's most sensible to distinguish this as symbolic populism, since it was highly variable how much it actually delivered in terms of genuine empowerment.

Sometimes it really did deliver, but not consistently and reliably.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The Populists were at a turning point (4.00 / 1)
Before some point Americans didn't believe in class. Anyone could be rich, anyone could be poor, it was a matter of hard work, talent, and God's will.

By 1890 or so the realities of hereditary class started to be hard to ignore. The populists dealt with the transformation in their own lives, since many of them started out as over-optimistic entrepreneurs, and their thinking wasn't always clear on the topic. But it was only about that time that people started thinking much about the class of "little guys" (small farmer, tradesman or laborer)as a permanent feature of society, rather than as  unsuccessful entrepreneurs or  guys who haven't made it yet.

The ideology of individual freedom, individual contracts with the boss, and individual competition lives on, of course, among people like the Koch brothers (heirs).


[ Parent ]
I wouldn't quite go so far as to reduce it to mere symbolic populism (4.00 / 1)
Seeing as certain populist actions, even if they weren't the result of long-term and lasting political planning and organization--which are necessary elements in genuine and effective political populism--did have meaningful impact on the course of US history before genuine self-empowered and well-organized political populism emerged in the second half of the 19th century. E.g. Shay's Rebellion led to the convening of the constitutional conventional--or at least provided a good excuse for those who wanted one to call for it--even if that was hardly its organizers' specific intent.

I agree that such populism, being essentially spontaneous and not the result of or leading to serious, lasting and effective political movements, was unlike the sort of organized populism that would emerge nearly 100 years later. But neither was it merely symbolic, let alone synthetic populism. It was genuinely inspired, and did have some meaningful effect. Eventually, the kinds of people who were behind these earlier, cruder forms of grassroots populism did figure out how to organize. And, of course, others figured out how to exploit them, or co-opt them. Over time, power accretes, but not only at the top.

And the top HATES that.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
I'll take a stab. (4.00 / 4)
"What is Populism and Why are Democrats Afraid of It"

Not having actually read either post, I'll take a stab at answering this question on it's face:

Democrats avoid populism because the ruling class incentivizes them to avoid it. Right-wing populism serves ruling class interests, so Republicans are encouraged to and rewarded for populist rhetoric. Left-wing populism threatens the ruling class, so it is discouraged and punished by the relatively small group of folks with all the power and the money. The extent to which Democrats avoid populism is a measure of the corruption of our so-called democracy.

miasmo.com


To continue: (0.00 / 0)
If you have a better way to do things, do things that way, instead of sniping at people who are doing things wrong.

America has never been friendly to the left or to progressivism, and thousands of people have beaten their brains out trying to find something that will work. Most failed. We're closer to some kind of public medical insurance than we have ever been right now. To me that's a good thing. I'd certainly have preferred single payer, but there have been lots and lots of things I've preferred over the years and I didn't get any of them.

As I understand, you're criticizing me because I'm not grumpy enough, and because I'm not blaming various people enough for failing to support single payer, and perhaps not because I'm not winning the single payer fight singlehandedly.  

In the past I believed that if only the leadership of the left were militant enough and correct enough, they would win when the people saw that they were right. That never has happened.  


For Christ's sake another goddamn time. (0.00 / 0)
I've been talking all along about replacing the Congressmen we have with better ones. That can't be done overnight. You seem to think that if we do the right thing, Congress will magically improve tomorrow.

[ Parent ]
You seem to be arguing with yourself (4.00 / 1)
No worries, I do that all the time.  But normally I try to not let others notice, so much.

[ Parent ]
I was confused too. (4.00 / 1)
Then I figured out that he's responding to comments up-thread by vastleft.

miasmo.com

[ Parent ]
John (0.00 / 0)
Actually, I've done the following:

1. Asked you to clarify whom you wanted to have recruit disgruntled, populist voters
2. Agreed with your agenda of getting electing a few good populists
3. Argued that the progressive elites have tended to exhibit the kind of losery "realism" and "pragmatism" you criticized, and further argued that some self-examination of that might yield constructive change.

The latter point was the sticking point, because it suggests that the tribe of A-list bloggers might need to rethink their strategies, if they want to be a catalyst for populist change.

At that point, your comments and others became increasingly defensive, ad hominem, and content free.

Now, you're throwing in the straw man that I demanded that you personally made single-payer a reality.

I'm a heretic that doesn't think the elite lefty status quo is up to the task of supporting a populist politics, because it's too much of a self-serving clique. I don't think it has to be one. But, as it stands, it is.


[ Parent ]
OK, here's how I see it (4.00 / 2)
Since I've been here at Open Left I've been writing about Populism from a historical point of view and the Democratic Party from a historical point of view with special attention to the sources of the Democrats' anti-populism. My long term goal has been to provide a framework for the disillusioned post-Obama period, when people realize that the Democrats of today are not going to do the right thing. Nothing has been keyed to current events, much less the post-Super Tuesday period.

Twice now I've been confronted here with demands that I denounce various people, initially Open Left and Firedoglake, for not being radical enough and for not supporting single-payer. I was asked to denounce crimes that took place as much as a year and a half ago. The first time came totally out of the blue, and I didn't really know how to respond. This second time was less unexpected.

I wasn't part of the decision making process anywhere  during that period and I wasn't even following the strategic planning that others were doing. By and large I think that it would have been a good idea to have started with single payer, and I'd already said so  before the confrontation, but even then I would have expected to drop down to single payer. Why? Because a.) there aren't enough Congressmen on our side, and b.) there aren't enough voters on our side.

Polls say differently, sure. Polls are buttwipe. According to the  issues polls, Mondale was elected president. There just aren't enough Americans informed on the issue, committed to the issue, and mobilized to work for the issue for us to win. If 70% of Americans want single payer, where the fuck were they during the last forty years? Did they even bother to vote in Congressional elections?

OVer the last couple of decades I've come to realize that the American people in their present state disagree with me on a lot of things. And second, I've givenup on correct-position politics and personal-conscience politics. And that has meant that, yes, I do sometimes think strategically, and I do sometimes make compromises. Just differen compromises and different strategies.

 


[ Parent ]
As for the defensiveness and ad hominems (4.00 / 2)
You and Lambert pissed me off. This is personal. You showed up, changed the subject, and demanded that I respond. The first time Lambert made his demand, I gave a rather noncommittal answer, explaining that I wasn't on top of the question. (I didn't explain that I was also in the middle of a discussion of something else, but he should have known that). But he kept hammering away until I was thoroughly tired of him as a person. I feel the same way about you.

The questions you raised are all valid questions which deserve serious discussion somewhere, sometime. In the future you might consider raising them in a friendlier and more persuasive way, preferably under different names so you can start from scratch with people who don't dislike you personally.  


[ Parent ]
Sadly (4.00 / 1)
this is quite reminiscent of perennial leftwing sectarian attempts to hijack mass movements.  Denouncing those who don't follow the correct line is always one of their primary concerns.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Ah! (0.00 / 0)
Lack of deference.

Check.

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
Where's the victimization come from? (0.00 / 0)
Am I now a famous powerful person? I've been a second or third rank blogger for about six years. You probably outrank me.

[ Parent ]
Huh? (0.00 / 0)
You write:

In the future you might consider raising them in a friendlier and more persuasive way, preferably under different names so you can start from scratch with people who don't dislike you personally.

That translates to "deference" to me. If I misread, then I misread.

* * *

As for your analysis (projection) of my inner soul and being ("sense of victimization") and your suggestion that I turn into a sock puppet and post under another name... Well, all I can say is thanks for the inventory and the advice.

Suggestion: Take what you like and leave the rest.

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
Civility. Friendliness. (4.00 / 2)
The idea that I expect people to defer to me is a joke.

My advice to you is to stop being an asshole.  


[ Parent ]
"Hammering away..." (0.00 / 0)
One lesson of the blogosphere 2003-2006 (before portions of it went pro) is that repeat, repeat, repeat (and refine, refine, refine) is the only way to get points across.

So that's what to do, eh? Hammer away.

As Captain Carrot says somewhere in Terry Pratchett, "Personal isn't the same as important."

Words you might consider taking to heart -- since a populist movement where "thoroughly tired of him as person" is a controlling factor is no movement at all but a clique. Eh?

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
Lambert, if someone else said what you're saying.... (4.00 / 3)
I might agree with him. I don't know where you got the idea that to persuade people, the first thing to do is to annoy the hell out of them. As far as I'm concerned, you're being an asshole. You barged in, changed the subject of the thread, raised a question that I wasn't familiar with, and demanded an immediate response -- preferably one which involved denouncing Firedoglake and Open Left on the basis of things I didn't know about except from you.

You also seemed to assume that I was your enemy already, just because I was a guest poster on an enemy site. Well, I wasn't then, but I am now.

All of my identifications and affiliations are with sites which doubt Obama, and as I understand, I'm still no good because these friends of mine and I don't denounce Obama enough. Screw that.


[ Parent ]
I repeat what Captain Carrot said... (0.00 / 0)
Personal isn't the same as important.  

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  

[ Parent ]
You're not as important as you think (4.00 / 2)
I would have had to have had enormous respect for you to have responded favorably to your accusatory hijacking of my thread and your repeated demands that I denounce people. I did not have that much respect then, and I have less now.

You seem to believe that the rest of the blogosphere is obliged to accept your insults and demands at face value, but few agree with you.

If mistakes were made in the past we should learn from them, make the necessary corrections, and move on. I don't see the need for recriminations.

As for whether we should have first asked for single payer, I think that we probably should have. As for whether we should have refused to compromise and demanded single payer, I defititely don't think so. We just aren't strong enough. We may have 70% support in the polls, but we've had that forever on many issues and we haven't succeeded in mobilizing it.

As for pillorying the people who made mistkes, definitely not.

The future? There's a lot to talk about, but you have succeeded in makign yourself one of the people I don't really want to be part of the discussion.


[ Parent ]
Let's side step the issue of populism (0.00 / 0)
since the groups that dislike it aren't going to change by knowing more about it, and since, by your own admition, they have an interest in maintaining their hatred of it.  I just would like the country to be governed in everyone's best interests and not just the interest of business.  Do the tea baggers offer this.  Nope. They are dogmatic capitalists in most cases.  So I ain't interested in them.

I know third parties cannot do anything more than spoil, but the spoiler affect can be used strategically against bad democrats.  If the 10 percent nader affect were utilized against the worst corporatists,in 5 years, the corporatists will be exercised from the democratic party.  Let's start something like a "strategic liberalism party" and use the spoiler affect to purge the democrats of corporatist candidates.  The problem with the greens is that they ran even against good dems like Paul Wellstone!  A "strategic liberalism party" or a "real democratic party" wouldn't make that mistake.

My blog  


Sidestep my main topic ever since I've been on Open Left? (4.00 / 3)
I see no reason to do that just because a few people don't like what I've said. Without disagreeing with people you can't change their minds.  

[ Parent ]
Basic concepts needed, not just resentment (0.00 / 0)
Populism of the right or left acts aggressively against perceived injustices toward the "left outs" despised by the elites.

Not enough. The real problem with the Democratic Party is that it is not a Social Democratic party and therefore has a hard time developing policy and educating about policy.

Social Democracy (conservative version) articulates three basic premises:

1. A free market system is necessary to the production of wealth. The government must ensure that markets are free and fair and not rigged in favor of special interests. Such honest markets will produce the most prosperity. Although quality basics should be provided for everyone, some can become more prosperous and even rich due to individual talents and initiatives.

2. Society, the citizenry, acting through the government, has the right to decide how the wealth of a nation is to be put to the best use. At the basic level it must provide Freedom from Want: adequate and healthy food, affordable housing, free or low cost health care, free child care, free education, low cost or free transportation, affordable energy. These aspects of Freedoms from want need to be translated into policy and affordable public budgets. Above all, all citizens must be helped to develop their talents and skills so that they can contribute to society as well as share in its benefits.

3. Universal civil rights and the just rule of law.

The left version of Social Democracy reverses the first two principles and is harder on the rich, at least in rhetoric.

Without a pragmatic/philosophical framework of what makes for a just and good society grievances can stoke agitation but no real change for the better.

America, we can all live better!


Somewhat beside the point (4.00 / 1)
A lot of Populists were socialists. Debs was a Populist for a time.

The problem with the term "Social Democrat" is that at any given time half the governments of Europe are Social Democratic, and they don't provide an example to follow at all. Blair was a Social Democrat of sorts.

When you say "not just resentment", it makes me suspect that you accept the misrepresentation of the Populists.


[ Parent ]
I open only the answers, by using the "your comments" feature... (0.00 / 0)
...so I don't notice that. But thx for the note.

Gray, I suppose I'm sorry that this got nasty (0.00 / 0)
But I feel that you've repeatedly and stubbornly  mischaracterized what I've been doing. Initially your objections motivated me to clarify my point and explain my reasoning better, and even to modify what I'm saying to a degree, but you really haven't responded to anything said. You've just reiterated your original poiint, and this pisses me off.

In general I will say that anyone trying to develop a populist politics will have to distance themselves from much of the scholarly literature on populism. Not all, though: Goodwyn, Johnston, Lasch, Kazin, Postel are excellent. (My bibliography is here: http://trollblog.wordpress.com... I think that such distancing is a valid move, since a lot of that literature is tendentious, the technical term "populism" is mushy, and my use of the word "populism" is based on actual research.

It also offends me that you seem to treat as irrelevant the fact that I've spent the last six months studying this topic, whereas you know little or nothing about it, and that you acknowledge that perhaps there is room for a new look at the whole question, but not her at OL and not by me.

But would you pls show some evidence supporting your opinion that this isn't a fringe view? Who else supports John's definition, except you and the late Richard Hofstadter???

Look to my bibliography. Your ignorance hurts you.

My definition is the opposite of Hofstadter's. Hofstadter contributed to Gellner's book, which was part of and, I think, influential in the European discussion of populism you refer to. In other words, Hofstadter's definition is yours, not mine.

And I remain angry at your idea that someone else can disagree with the academic definition of populism, but not me. Especially when that idea comes from an ignorant person.


simular words (0.00 / 0)
Just pondering, are population, popular, and populist variants of the same base intent? Do they all describe the general public or the preference of the general public? If so, it should be easier to construct (deduce?) an acceptable definition of populism.

1- Must be self funded, not accept special interest funding.
2- Must represent the popular (majority?) opinion of the public.
3- Must not support any issue that favors capital over people.

This is only a start, to test the water, so to speak. What do you think?


Government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob..... FDR


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