Ridgelines and River Bottoms

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 17:30


America's political geography is fundamentally dysfunctional:  we draw political divisions--most notably between states--along the bottoms of significant rivers, thus dividing regional ecosystems in half, rather than drawing those divisions along ridgelines.  There's an understandable historical reason for this, of course: rivers are natural traditional dividing lines. People inherently tend to gather together on one side or the other.  They've done so for eons. But even so, that doesn't make it any less dysfunctional today.

The same is true in a more abstract sense.  We tend to draw conceptual divisions in same sort of naively naturalistic way, even though the functional result is deeply frustrating.  Take, for example, the ongoing health care battle.  It's the natural inclination of people on all sides to assume that the important distinction is whether we have "X" feature or not--whatever "X" may be.  Obama says "X" is "cost controls" and he supports the public option as a means to that end.  Most folks in the blogosphere would say that "X" is the public option.  Some have argued that "X" is single-payer.  But my view is that all these Xs are like river bottoms--or sometimes even just puddles--when what we ought to be thinking about is the ridgelines. It's the ridgelines that determine the broad outlines of things.

In that spirit, I refer you to Digby writing:

I have, for months now, predicted that this was going to come down to what Barack Obama really wanted. We assumed the president would want "what works," particularly after fetishizing pragmatism throughout his campaign, which meant that he would require a real public option.  But he had also fetishized bipartisanship. And then there were those side deals ...

But the picture is becoming clear:

    President Barack Obama is actively discouraging Senate Democrats in their effort to include a public insurance option with a state opt-out clause as part of health care reform. In its place, say multiple Democratic sources, Obama has indicated a preference for an alternative policy, favored by the insurance industry, which would see a public plan "triggered" into effect in the future by a failure of the industry to meet certain benchmarks.

    The administration retreat runs counter to the letter and the spirit of Obama's presidential campaign. The man who ran on the "Audacity of Hope" has now taken a more conservative stand than Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.), leaving progressives with a mix of confusion and outrage. Democratic leaders on Capitol Hill have battled conservatives in their own party in an effort to get the 60 votes needed to overcome a filibuster. Now tantalizingly close, they are calling for Obama to step up.... "Everybody knows we're close enough that these guys could be rolled. They just don't want to do it because it makes the politics harder," said a senior Democratic source, saying that Obama is worried about the political fate of Blue Dogs and conservative Senate Democrats if the bill isn't seen as bipartisan. "These last couple folks, they could get them if Obama leaned on them."
....

It seems that the administration believes that it's better to deliver a bill that will not work than to take a chance on losing some seats. Since it's nonsensical to think that that Republicans would take those seats because of the public option but not health care reform over all, they must believe that they must deliver a devastating blow to the majority of their own party in order to prove their bipartisan bona fides and give Rahm's Blue Dogs a tea bag to take home with them. (Certainly, nothing would make the villagers happier...)

If the reports we are hearing are true (and that's a big if) it looks like we have bigger problems.

I quote this at length because I think it captures the larger situation exactly. It identifies the ridgelines. And in doing so, it clearly reveals why Obama is, at bottom, a conservative, notwithstanding some cultural inclinations to the contrary.  When all is said and done, he wants to change things as little as possible, his desire for change is driven by a perceived necessity to avoid disaster, and the priorities and parameters of change are dictated by doing as much as possible for those representing existing power, and doing as little as possible for everyone else.  This is what classic Burkean conservatives believe in, along with the ideal of unifying the polity, and marginalizing all divisive forces.

Divisive forces, for those not clued in, means you and me, pardners.  Every bit as much as Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck.  For a classic conservative like Obama, it really makes no difference whatsoever if the divisive forces are right or rational.  All that matters is that they resist going along.  And because of Obama's essential conservatism, it's you and I who are the problem in Obama's eyes.  Not Baucus, Nelson, Lieberman & the like.  You and I.  We are the problem.

And since we are the problem, we've got to get a whole lot better at it. Because if we can make ourselves insoluble, then that will force Obama to accept us, however much he may hate doing so.

And that is the only way that we will get what we want.

And what do we want?  That's where the ridgelines come in once again.

Paul Rosenberg :: Ridgelines and River Bottoms
My sense of how to answer the question of what do we want is simple: we want a system that will evolve toward single payer, because anything less will be wastefully expensive and a strong inducement towards a variety of bad policy options.  Naturally, the best thing ideally would be to go directly to a public option.  But there are strong reasons why this isn't so practical--most notably the millions of workers who've sacrificed wage increases over the years for health plans that would now be abandoned.  And so we need an equitable transition process as well as single payer, and we're simply not in a political position to make something like that happen.  But we are in a position to reason together as progressive to strategize how to make it happen over a longer period of time--and that's what I believe we should be doing.  Keep our primary focus on the long-term goal, on the ridgelines, and the shaping of political watersheds.

Of course, that's a vast over-simplification, since health care reform doesn't exist in a vacuum, and we face the same sorts of problems in other major areas as well--most notably global warming, and restructuring our economy away from its current dependency on financial sector gambling.  But the principle should be the same--the important dividing lines should be those of the large-scale political ridgelines.  And toward that end, we need to become very, very good at separating the wheat from the chaff.  And very, very good at saying, "No!" and sticking with it.

In order to do this, we must be willing to risk taking losses. Because, quite frankly, losses are always a possibility--and generally become even more likely whenever you go on defense, no matter how reasonable it may seem.  That's why I've argued that we should not, and cannot support a bill with individual mandates and no public option.  This will be political poison, and the only question is "How fast will it act?"

Typical of the sort of hysterical "We'll all be killed" narrative that will be deployed against us have been numerous comments from BobTegas, such as those in my diary, "Against The CW: Health Care Reform DOESN'T Have To Pass This Year", in this comment thread, which begins with comment:

If reform dies, Democrats will not be given another chance

Republicans will get a hammerlock on Congress and by the time Democrats actually win it back, they will be far too afraid to touch healthcare.  

by: BobTegas @ Sat Oct 17, 2009 at 18:05

As the thread unfolds it becomes increasingly obvious that Bob has not rational basis for his argument.  He is simply afraid, and he will twist any facts he has to in order to make his fear appear to be the only rational, sane response.  At one point he assets that 1994 was a realigning election, which it was not.  I went on to write a whole diary dealing with that, and Bob proved that he didn't even have a fixed idea what a realigning election was.

More concretely, however, he had this exchange:

If Democrats had passed something in 1994, they would have held the House

Passing nothing was the worst possible outcome.  

by: BobTegas @ Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 15:23


depends on what they had passed

if it was something good they'd have expanded their majorities

if it was something bad they'd lost even more seats then they lost

if they pass something bad 2010 it will be worse than 1994

republicrats will get a hammerlock on congress and democrats will be in the minority for generations

by: The Big Hurt @ Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 16:15



It cant possibly be worse than 1994

That year Democrats lost every possible race they could have lost and stayed in the minority for 12 years.  

by: BobTegas @ Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 18:01

This example of unreasoing fear is much easier to refute, since it's directly refuted by cold hard figures.  There we plenty of other seats the Democrats could have lost.  I know, because I was a campaign worker in the coordinated (State Assemby/Senate and Congressional) campaign that saved one of those seats by less than 1,000 votes.  Here is a list of close races we won that year--races we could well have lost if we had passed a terrible bill, just to "pass something":

AL-5  Wayne Parker (Rep)                 86,923
      Robert E. (Bud) Cramer, Jr. (Dem)  88,693

CA-24 Rich Sybert, (Rep)                 91,806
      Anthony C. Beilenson (Dem)         95,342

CA-36 Susan Brooks (Rep)                 93,127
      Jane Harman (Dem)                  93,939

CA-42 Rob Guzman (Rep)                   56,259
      George E. Brown, Jr. (Dem)         58,888

CT-2  Edward W. Munster (Rep)            79,167
      Sam Gejdenson (Dem)                79,188

FL-11 Mark Sharpe (Rep)                  72,129
      Sam Gibbons (Dem)                  76,821

KT-3  Susan B. Stokes (Rep)              67,238
      Mike Ward (Dem)                    67,663

MN-6  Tad Jude (Rep)                    113,190
      William P. Luther (DFL)           113,740

MN-7  Bernie Omann (Rep)                102,623
      Collin C. Peterson (DFL)          108,023

NC 7  Robert C. Anderson (Rep)           58,849
      Charlie Rose (Dem)                 62,670 

OR-1  Bill Witt (Rep)                   120,846
      Elizabeth Furse (Dem)             121,147

PA-15 Jim Yeager (Rep)                   71,602
      Paul McHale (Dem)                  72,073
 
TN-6  Steve Gill (Rep)                   88,759
      Bart Gordon (Dem)                  90,933

TX-5  Pete Sessions (Rep)                58,521
      John Bryant (Dem)                  61,877

I've gone on at some length with this one example not because it's important in itself, but because it's indicative of the sort of damage than mindless fear and pseudo-certainty can do.  As we face some very difficult times ahead, it's going to be inevitable that we will have disagreements in the short run. And to resolve those disagreements we will need the utmost trust in one another. We will need to join together in raising the level of debate, and keeping ourselves free from the influence of unresoning fear, and the many sorts of deception that fear can lead us to blindly accept.

Above all, we should remember the words of Franklin Delano Roosevelt: The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

Keep your eyes on the ridgelines, not the river bottoms.  The ridgelines are the keys to the river bottoms.


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He is a SELL OUT, which is why WE are a problem. (0.00 / 0)
And if the SELL OUTS win this one, we some of the bottom 80++% are counting on ... coming back stronger another day?

oh yeah, and with the sell outs winning which = insurance companies get to keep f'king us, AND, maybe unemployment will stay high / continue up cuz there has been any real non-casino-pyramid scheme economic growth for 30 years, AND, the sheeple getting sick of the fox abc nbc / cokie lies defined as conventional wisdom, AND then, voila ...!

the conservadem-dlc sell outs AND the right wingers will ALL be swept from office!

OR... if the sell outs win, again, as they have for the last 20++ years, we'll have some indeterminate amount of whatever elections where every f'king bonehead who can open excel tells us that THIS election is THE election and ... dukakis will win cuz it is labor day and he is up 17% AND a sitting vice president hasn't won the white house since Octavius IVXXIVVV.

I hope the sell outs lose, cuz I do NOT see the sheeple waking up before we're at 15% unemployment ... or ... 7% cuz we don't count 20 million of 'em anymore !!!!!

calling these lying sell outs 'conservative' makes 'em sound like there is just a disagreement among us nice people, NOT that they're fucking sell outs.

rmm.  


It is too full o' the milk of human kindness To catch the nearest way


You gotta love a compact profundity (4.00 / 10)
In order to do this, we must be willing to risk taking losses. Because, quite frankly, losses are always a possibility--and generally become even more likely whenever you go on defense, no matter how reasonable it may seem.

Delayed gratification as a good thing. Thinking beyond the arc of one's own lifespan as a good thing. How common in the political writing of ages past, how rare in our own. The consumer society has cost us in ways that even we non-believers sometimes find difficult to identify, let alone fathom.

Another h/t, Paul.


Yeah, and it makes me wonder (4.00 / 7)
about the netroots, where we hang on miniscule-in-the-scheme-of-things developments--is Ron Wyden going to vote the bill out of committee?--instead of formulating and promoting our ideas. I think the netroots might be too pragmatic for its own good. My guess is that the conservatives who in the sixties and seventies were honing their "crazy" ideas like preemptive war, bank deregulation, and "reforming" welfare didn't hang on every legislative up and down.


[ Parent ]
I think this is what he is saying. (4.00 / 4)
We should be starting with principles, and deriving policy from them. Get the big picture right and the details will follow.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
the long view (0.00 / 0)
That's all good and well, but I have a hard time taking the long view when my premiums have already doubled in the last three years. One more year of this and I could be "going naked."

miasmo.com

[ Parent ]
Not the long view (4.00 / 2)
the big picture.

Or, as Mark Twain put it, "taking the path of least resistance is what makes men and rivers crooked."

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
How did that happen? (4.00 / 1)
Sorry, I misread your comment. Doh!

miasmo.com

[ Parent ]
Proactive - Long View (4.00 / 4)
This is an excellent post since it offers Progressives some HOPE and guidance. I'm thInking that even our most progressive leaders need to be pushed to harden Progressive demands. This is what the GOP does all the time and it seems to work for them just fine. So the long game requires making the Progressive caucus much tougher and internally consistant and that may require applying pressure even on the good guy like Fiengold and Franken.  

Spot on! (4.00 / 3)


I may find myself forced to quote you at length.

With permission of course.


Sure (4.00 / 3)
Better still if you provide a link!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Another Point of View (0.00 / 0)

"I think President Obama with his current YES.I.WILL...NOT. leadership style is trying to influence the people of the United States to get rip roaring mad enough at the grass roots to form a COMPLETELY NEW NON-CORPORATIST POPULIST POLITICAL PARTY out of the communication and organizational and direct fund raising capability of the Internet that will be very successful over the next 10 years and will eventually run the United States for the next 500 years. And I think he will eventually succeed!"


A very optimistic assessment. (0.00 / 0)

Are you quoting someone I should recognize?


[ Parent ]
Tom Tomorrow, maybe? (4.00 / 1)
Because he basically advanced the same theory about Karl Rove.

[ Parent ]
Not sure how this fits with your metaphor (4.00 / 2)
but I remember a professor telling me once that mountains make better boundaries than rivers, because rivers move.

Montani semper liberi

Well, Mountains Move, Too! (4.00 / 1)
If you know your Robinson Jeffers.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Or your Donovan (4.00 / 2)
First there is a mountain
Then there is no mountain
Then there is

[ Parent ]
Or even basic geology and plate tectonics (4.00 / 3)
Nothing against poets and folk singers, though.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
it was the GOP that used to be the American Tory Party (4.00 / 1)
But now, the GOP has devolved into what might be described as an American Nationalist Party for Jesus, leaving a vacuum.

Obama sees this as a golden opportunity to turn the Democrats into the new American Tory Party.

In that sense he really is the Democratic analogue of Reagan, who completed the transformation of the GOP into the Tory Party in the 1980s. But to effect that transformation, Reagan had to use the kinds of demagogic culture-war tactics that, when pursued to their logical conclusion, led to the GOP becoming the mob party it is today.

It is not clear what tactics Obama is prepared to employ to transform the Democrats, since he supposedly eschews the sort of divisive, Atwater-style politics that Reagan practiced, with its veiled appeals to racism, piety, and jingoism. And those tactics don't work nearly as well on the Democratic base anyhow.

So it's no surprise that Obama and his handlers are finding that the glorious transformation they envisioned isn't so easily brought about.

As demagoguery goes, "hope" and "change you can believe in" are pretty weak tea. They worked during the election, because everyone hated Bush and wanted to believe that Obama would be better.

But now Obama's actually in a position of responsibility, and he's expected to deliver. If you want to get people to go along with you in spite of their own economic interests, you have to divert their anger onto a scapegoat, like minorities or foreigners.

Obama and his people aren't as good at that kind of politics as Rove was. But they will be forced to resort to it, and it's going to be very divisive.


Economy Is The Wild Card (4.00 / 5)
I tend to agree with your analysis IF the Democrats have the time.  In this respect I almost come down in Bob Tegas's camp.

The real driving force behind the tea baggers IS NOT socialistic health care or any other such dribble.  It's watching our government bail out the banksters with trillions in loans and hundreds of billion in direct assistance.  This anger is much more visceral and palpable than the left vs right split - this anger reaches across party lines.  It is  the same anger which is fueling the left's feelings that they are being sold down the river by Obama.  We're afraid that we're going to be forced to buy healthcare insurance, and thus prop up another bunch of crooks robbing the middle class.

If the economy tanks further, and the odds of that occurring are very high - or even if the "recovery profits" are financed by shedding workers because consumer demand is down for the foreseeable future, then the assumption that Democrats have at least four years to "fine tune" health care reform may be wrong.

Right now, Obama is benefiting from the understanding that he did not make this mess, but he's doing his best to fix it, and also from the Republicans party diving into the deep end of the wing nut cool aid bowl.  But this may not be the case over the course of the next year.  Things are getting very dicey out here in middle class land (formally know as Main St), and Obama and the Democrats are going to lose many, many voters unless Obama suddenly finds his FDR groove and provides real relief for those that are losing their jobs, their retirement, and their homes.  Medicare for eveybody is REAL relief.

Honestly, I think Obama's game plan would have been fine if the economy was healthy, but our current economic situation is a game changer, and the WH is still playing the game by last year's rules.


Actually (4.00 / 2)
I think you agree with The Big Hurt & Me.

We're afraid that we're going to be forced to buy healthcare insurance, and thus prop up another bunch of crooks robbing the middle class.

Bob Tegas thinks that's the solution!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
A better way to say no. (4.00 / 3)
Of course we have to say no. When we say it, we're talking to people like Rahm and the President, and as you say, they're always thinking about the next election. Keep it simple: we need to prove we can defeat House Blue Dogs when we want to. They don't think we can, so they're justified in ignoring us.

We keep talking on and on and on and on and on and on about how we're taking the stands that most people agree with, and we point to polling. Okay, but that has to work in November 2010, or Rahm and company will be saying, "See, they can't make it stick."

We've made a commitment to the people of this country that we're going to get them what they need, and there's no reason to forgo the most powerful tool we have. You say that the voters in Blue Dog districts want policies that the Blue Dogs work to defeat? Prove it on election day and a lot of other House members will stop being Blue Dogs, count on it.

It doesn't matter who takes the seat. The point is to prove that real Democrats can say no to their Representatives. It's only 12 months from now. Get used to the idea, and start thinking about ways to get it done.


Doug Kahn


Independent Progressives In The General Election (4.00 / 2)
We need to have at least five, maybe 10 of them, and knock at least three of them off.

Of course, beating them in primaries would be even better from a purely tactical point of view.  But strategically, I think that going the general election route would be better.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Here's a list (4.00 / 2)
Here are Blue Dogs representing districts where Obama got 50% or more.  Tossing these folks to the scrap heap is a low cost proposition.

Joe Baca (68%)
Adam Schiff (68%)
Mike Thompson (66%)
Jane Harman (64%)
Loretta Sanchez (60%)
Jim Costa (60%)
Dennis Cardoza (59%)
Jim Cooper (56%)
Melissa Bean (56%)
Mike Michaud (55%)
Leonard Boswell (54%)
Joe Donnelly (54%)
Patrick Murphy (54%)
Sanford Bishop (54%)

You may notice that the first seven names on this list are all from California.


[ Parent ]
Not all are problematic (0.00 / 0)
Schiff and Sanchez (both in my area) have been supportive of a public plan and supposedly Jane Harman is too now that her son had his insurance deny payment for his treatment. The Blue Dogs are a very mixed bag.  

[ Parent ]
Sort Of... (4.00 / 1)
There are a few Blue Dogs who are for the public option.  You've just named pretty near all of them.  That hardly constitutes "a very mixed bag", in my book, at least.

Also worth noting: Harman was helped along by a new primary challenge from Marcy Winograd.  The magic of democracy at work.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Deciding which Bad Dog to work on (4.00 / 2)
Having your response has helped me to think about the coming year; thanks.

When I saw the letter supporting the robust public option that had Schiff and Harman and 3 other Blue Dogs signing it, I had that exact thought about Marcy Winograd. It may be that Harman has a personal story involved, but we all have similar stories, it can't be anything new for her.

Writing and/or signing a letter like that is a political message in a bottle. It's a signal that Schiff and others want to be seen as separate from the Blue Dogs. They wouldn't do it unless the criticism were working; we're having an effect. I think of the White House leak of the pajama/sofa quote in a similar way: if we weren't having an effect on them, there wouldn't be any reason to criticize us. If we could get one of them to resign from the caucus it would be a real blow to the group, but for that reason it'll be tough to get anyone to do it.

When you say 'independent progressives', you mean a third candidate in the general, one who would get Democratic votes that the Blue Dog doesn't deserve? The districts I'm thinking about are the ones that don't have heavy Democratic majorities, the ones that are harder for a Democrat to hold.

It's fairly easy to get someone on the ballot in California, but other states have tougher requirements. (I really should get that info together.) As I remember, the last redistricting in CA made almost all of the Democrats safe in a general, didn't it?

Doug Kahn


[ Parent ]
Good post (4.00 / 3)
it clearly reveals why Obama is, at bottom, a conservative, notwithstanding some cultural inclinations to the contrary.  When all is said and done, he wants to change things as little as possible, his desire for change is driven by a perceived necessity to avoid disaster, and the priorities and parameters of change are dictated by doing as much as possible for those representing existing power, and doing as little as possible for everyone else.

I mostly agree with this, although I don't think it's quite right to say that Obama wants to change things as little as possible. I suspect that he would like to change things fairly dramatically but not at the expense of unsettling Power. Obama is the Great Reassurer. He needs to puts the Power Structure at ease, and anything that makes it uneasy--populism, partisanship, Paul Rosenberg--ain't kosher. Hence: President Olympia Snowe. Hence the chasm between his rhetoric and the reality of his actions. Hence the lie that we can effect serious change without struggle. I don't love viewing politicians through a psychological lens, but it's hard not to see race as a big cause of his chronic caution and need to please Power. If as a black man you want to become president of the Harvard Law Review, a Senator, and president, you have no choice but to flatter and soothe various white establishments. If you want to enact the change the country wants and needs, you have no choice not to.



Maybe (4.00 / 3)
I used to believe that.  And maybe I still do--in explaining how he got where he is. But now I think he's been on that road so long that he's become a total prisoner of that act.

More specifically, I agree with glenjo:

Honestly, I think Obama's game plan would have been fine if the economy was healthy, but our current economic situation is a game changer, and the WH is still playing the game by last year's rules.

And the fact that he's locked into an obsolete mindset is what I regard as the giveaway here.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Who knows if this anecdote is true... (4.00 / 2)
...but, regarding the game changing nature of the economy, you do have to wonder the degree to which it is simply an abstraction to Obama and his team.

Matt Taibbi promoting Elizabeth Warren for President:

I'm personally of the opinion that our main problem lay with the fact that the Democratic Party as currently constituted is more afraid of losing the financial support of Wall Street and the health insurance industry and the pharmaceutical industry than it is of losing progressive voters. In fact, I think I've put that wrong, because it implies that the Democratic Party pushes the agenda of industry insiders out of fear. That is a misread of the situation, I think.

I think they prefer those people to their voters. I think they feel more comfortable with them. I heard a story recently from a Democratic Party operative who tells me that certain members of one of the president's cabinet departments only got wind of how hard it is out there for ordinary people to pay their bills when they invited in a major corporation to give them a presentation about their financial outlook for the holiday season - and through that report found out that this company's prospective customers were spending less because large numbers of them had been laid off, or had huge medical bills, or had maxed out their credit, and so on.

Letters from customers, survey answers and such, were read to the cabinet group. And they were shocked. This is how they find out about the economic reality of this country - accidentally, from a major campaign contributor! That's how out of touch these people are.

If there is even an element of truth to this story, we're in a good deal more hurt than we even know.  It suggests to me that Obama will be all of his second term figuring it out, and gone by the time he might be in a position to do anything about it.  

The fact remains, imo, affordable, portable, and effective health care is one of the key ingredients to an economic turn around.  And, what's currently being considered is a long way from what I'd call affordable, portable, and effective.  Money is an abstraction, but the economy is not.  Increasingly, it seems to me that we are destined to ride this disaster all the way to the bottom.  We'll see what's left of American ingenuity when we get ready to dig our way out.


[ Parent ]
So Horrible. So True. (0.00 / 0)
Actually, it's hard to imagine them acting as they do if they weren't that utterly clueless.

Me, I know how bad it is because of how easy my freeway drives are.  I live right off the 710, the main freeway out of the Ports of LA & Long Beach.  There's no perceptible indication of holiday bump in traffic--a bump that normally starts in spring.  It's entirely forseeable that retailers are going to have a terrible Christmas season, but I don't think the economists are looking that far ahead.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
you hit the nail on the head... RACE (0.00 / 0)
its unfortunate that having the first black president is working against us in this fashion, but its entirely true.

I don't know exactly what to make of this problem, but race certainly is a very strong factor when it comes to his underlying political philosophy/strategy.

End this war. Stop John McCain. Cindy McCain is filthy rich.


[ Parent ]
And rivers meander, which is another reason to abandon them (4.00 / 2)
I like your analogy of using ridgelines to visualize long term goals, and I find your whole post a refreshing deep breath. Thank you.

You use the current healthcare debate as an example, but isn't this fight/debate one of the "political watersheds"?

While healthcare reform's potential effect on the U.S. economy is another subject, on a cultural level it is Washington/the powers that be/Versailles paying attention to the little guy, average Americans.

This could be a ridgeline to follow. You talk about your diary as a "vast oversimplification," but the concept of using "ridgelines" as a guiding principle is simple. It's the acting out of it, implementing it, that gets complicated.

As you say, there could be some losses along the way. If this bill is shit, urge the Progressive Caucus in the House to stand strong and defeat this bill. Then we can deal with the fall out - always with the eye on the prize: getting something for average Americans, what Obama promised. (Although I still think we should keep him in there, unless we can find somebody better, and work on Congress. Congress has much more power than the President in our system.)

You write:

...we face the same sorts of problems in other major areas as well--most notably global warming, and restructuring our economy away from its current dependency on financial sector gambling.  But the principle should be the same--the important dividing lines should be those of the large-scale political ridgelines.  And toward that end, we need to become very, very good at separating the wheat from the chaff.  And very, very good at saying, "No!" and sticking with it.

Let the healthcare debate be the start of championing the needs of average Americans, rather than Wall Street, coal companies and Bank of America, etc.

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

George Santayana, The Life of Reason, Volume 1, 1905


FWIW (4.00 / 2)
Somewhere I read (possibly in one of Bernard DeVoto's books or something about Lewis and Clark) that one of the differences between the way white men travelled through the West and native Americans travelled is that white men prefered to travel in or next to rivers while native Americans preferred to travel along ridgelines.

Travelling along rivers provided water and in some cases easier travel.  But travellers also found themselves boxed in suddenly as cliffs closed down to the water's edges.  That meant laborious climbs up from the river.  Up cliffs and over rocks.  It also meant climbs back down to the river.

Travelling along the ridges might be initially harder.  It was more fit for ponies and travois then for wagons.  But the roads of the ages provided an easier trip overall with food along the way and usually no insurmountable obstacles.

If this isn't a good metaphor for health care, climate change, stimulus, etc. I don't know what is.  Should we take a slightly harder path initially requiring individual effort or should we take "the easy route" knowing that somewhere it will become vastly harder.

Leadership makes a difference.  Lewis and Clark adapted eventually using Native American guides and following the Lo Lo Trail to IIRC the Columbia or one of its tributaries.  Fremont did fine under the guidance of Kit Carson but on his own "the Pathfinder" courted complete disaster (first Republican candidate for President and one of the very worst Civil War generals,btw).  The Donner expedition made blunder after blunder including hiring an incompetent guide, starting late, trying a short cut and having to double back, bickering, having poor leadership and weak will and selfishness.  Major disaster.

So: start off on the right trail. It may not be the easiest at first.

Have a clear idea of what you aim to do.  

Be properly equipped and supplied.

Hire the right guides/experts. Listen to them.

Have proper leadership.  Do not be afraid to make firm choices but do it after gathering information and studying the risks.


[ Parent ]
oops, I put an extra 'it' (0.00 / 0)
if they pass something bad 2010 it will be worse than 1994

should be

if they pass something bad, 2010 will be worse than 1994  


re: political poison (4.00 / 1)
In order to do this, we must be willing to risk taking losses. Because, quite frankly, losses are always a possibility--and generally become even more likely whenever you go on defense, no matter how reasonable it may seem.  That's why I've argued that we should not, and cannot support a bill with individual mandates and no public option.  This will be political poison, and the only question is "How fast will it act?"

exactly,

frankly, I find it hard to believe the dems will pass a plan without a po but individual mandates. they can't be so blind.

ps. thanks for the mention Paul!


What we can learn from the balloon boy ordeal (4.00 / 1)
One detail I found interesting with the balloon boy investigation was that the Sheriff was intentionally disingenuous in order to gain Heenee's confidence and get him to possibly confess.

But in the meanwhile, everyone thought the Sheriff was being naive and stupid. In the end, because of the nature of the investigation and how quickly it became resolved, the Sheriff was able to let everyone in on the strategy.

I suspect this is what politics is like on a constant basis magnified by ten. I think trying to determine a politicians actual position on an issue is not only pointless but impossible, simply because we don't have access to the strategy that's being employed, and likely never will.

Therefore, the only metric that matters is the result. I find it interesting that the public option is still very much alive in both chambers, and if it ends up in the final bill, it should be partially attributed to Obama's strategy, especially since nearly everyone admits Obama could roll everyone if he wanted to. That cuts both ways, no? The final bill will reveal more about Obama's strategy and objectives than anything coming from various anonymous sources right now.

For those saying, well it will be too late then, whatever Obama is doing should have no influence on progressive strategy anyway. In fact, his reluctance seems to double-up progressive pressure, not diminish it, so at least his apparent waffling does not harm.  

Still waiting to see what happens before taking the red pill.

 


Ah! I'm So Glad To See That 113-Dimensional Chess Is Alive And Well (4.00 / 1)
It restores my faith in humanity.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Not to mention, (0.00 / 0)
we should never question our betters.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
I guess that includes (0.00 / 0)
Paul Rosenberg in your case.  

[ Parent ]
Rosenberg cares what happens to people. (0.00 / 0)
And he's not afraid to stand up for his beliefs. I'll take him over your hero any day.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
I care about people, too (0.00 / 0)
and I admire Paul Rosenberg's work.

Pretty complicated set of variables, huh? If only it were so easy to reduce people to types.  


[ Parent ]
I don't think complicated is the word you want. (0.00 / 0)
"Conflicted" might be more like it. To be complicated requires a certain degree of self-awareness.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
How much self-awareness? (4.00 / 1)
It would be interesting to arrive at an understanding of what an ideal progressive is at this point.

So far, this what I've gathered from your comments:

1) Trust Paul Rosenberg unconditionally

+

2) Mistrust Obama unconditionally.

=

3) A true progressive!

I find it sad that anyone could walk onto this board and be mistaken for a true progressive by following these two simple rules. We should demand more from people.

I make a basic observation that we can't know Obama's strategy and therefore shouldn't take it into account in a progressive strategy (basic game theory I think), and this is the type of stuff I get. I made like one comment all weekend! You guys must not really want any new members.  

I don't think my thoughts are that unbelievably stupid that they require this type of reaction, frankly.  


[ Parent ]
Your concern has been noted. (0.00 / 0)


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[ Parent ]
You missed the point (4.00 / 2)
I'm not saying Obama is playing multidimensional chess, I'm saying that it's impossible for us to determine his strategy based on anonymous reports, or even official ones in some cases. The only reliable fact will be the final bill. What's odd is that despite mocking Obama (and those who are still willing to withhold judgment until more conclusive evidence appears, such as myself) is that you claim to accurately understand him. That's one of your opertating premises in a lot of your analysis -- you, Paul Rosenberg, know what's going on in Obama's head. Based on what? But when someone takes a more empirical position, like the one I presented, now I'm the one living in fantasy land?

I've presented some real facts, the public option is alive in both houses and is likely to be passed. If it's still in the bill Obama signs, we must logically accept that Obama played a significant role in making this a reality. If not, the contrary is true. For people like me it will be a deciding factor in how I see this president.

It was just a few weeks ago that you said Obama would be unsuccessful in getting a public option because of huge tactical mistakes he made early on in the process (<-- not a hundred percent sure you said this, but pretty sure).



[ Parent ]
There is nothing empirical about your position. (4.00 / 1)
Your faith in Obama is based on nothing more than your faith in Obama. It's circular, and not reality-based in the least.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
I don't see the "faith in Obama" aspect in these comments (0.00 / 0)
I think frankenheimer is trying to say that no one really knows what Obama is thinking, or strategizing. Nothing more.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Not Quite (4.00 / 1)
After all, he concludes:

In fact, his reluctance seems to double-up progressive pressure, not diminish it, so at least his apparent waffling does not harm.

i.e.  Even when Obama staunchly refuses to take a strong stand that does no harm.  By this logic, Obama can only do good.  That's faith.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Perhaps (4.00 / 1)
But its a far cry from 113 dimensional chess. Its not like he's claiming that Obama is so super-smart that his "waffling" has been a calculated effort to prod the left to "double-up progressive pressure".  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
But that's exactly what he's saying: (4.00 / 2)
"But in the meanwhile, everyone thought the Sheriff was being naive and stupid. In the end, because of the nature of the investigation and how quickly it became resolved, the Sheriff was able to let everyone in on the strategy"

Obama is the brilliant sheriff, 5 steps ahead of mere mortals like ourselves.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Sadie's Right (4.00 / 1)
It's not just that she has an excellent bullshit detector.  She actually, you know, reads.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I read too (0.00 / 0)
Where we differ is that I don't interpret everything I read in terms of how I can use it too flippantly dismiss other commentors that might not agree with me.

Your response here is a prime example.  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
"Where we differ (4.00 / 1)
is that I don't interpret."

Fixed it for you.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Thank you (0.00 / 0)
I have always needed someone else to to tell me what I think.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Sadie Presented A Direct Quote Rebutting Your Claim (0.00 / 0)
How, exactly is that interpreting everything she reads to flippantly dismiss other commentors?

I'm really serious about this--it's part of the main thrust of this diary.  We need to keep focused on long-term goals, and not get distracted by short-term disagreements.  To do that in good faith, we need to establish sound foundations of trust.  And that means weeding out bad faith arguments.  Arguments based on ignoring what's plainly been written are not necessarily bad faith.  These threads can unfold pretty quickly.  But if you respond to someone pointing this out--as Sadie has done--by trying to shift blame onto them, thatn that most definitely is a bad faith argument.  And you really need to look at that.

The more scrupulous we are about correcting our own mistakes, the more we deserve to be taken seriously.  It's a sign of strength, not weakness, to admit when you've wrong.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
We disagree (0.00 / 0)
that the quote Sadie highlighted implies that frankenheimer was suggesting that faith in Obama is all we need. That's where the interpretation comes into it, see?

I took the analogy to the balloon boy episode as a cautionary tale, rather than a direct representation of how one should view Obama. The cautionary part being that if one only knows a few facts of the situation, one may draw erroneous conclusions. I may be wrong, but that is not for you or Sadie to judge. Only frankenheimer can say which of our interpretations of that post is accurate, or if we are all wrong.

But, you are right. We are focusing on minutae. However, it seems that most of the back and forth that you get into with commentors on your diaries is about the minor points, rather than the big picture. For that, I think you bear some responsibility because your first response is often to demean the intellectual integrity of those that disagree with you, i.e accusing them of not reading, or lacking the ability to comprehend what has been written. And you really need to look at that.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Disclaimer on balloon boy episode (0.00 / 0)
All I know about it is what I could discern from the reports on Turkish TV news and my grasp of the Turkish language is minimal at best.  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
I'd LOVE To Discuss The Big Points (0.00 / 0)
But "it all started when he hit me back" is not a convincing way to argue that I'm the one to blame when this doesn't happen.  It's very, very rare indeed when someone critical of my diaries presents an argument against the main thrust of the diary, based on anything more than the near-rote repetition of recycled talking points.  

In this particular dispute, I find it surprising that only now, after being pressed repeatedly, do you finally articulate an argument that seems to merit serious consideration.  If you'd made this argument initially, this entire thread would have developed quite differently.  I still disagree with your argument, but now, at least, you have articulated something substantive enough to disagree over.

On the substance, I think you're wrong simply because of the whole history of how criticism of Obama has been discouraged by invoking "you don't really know what he's up to" type of arguments.  You can't credibly make yet another argument of this sort, and then come back afterwards and claim that's not what you meant & people who took it that way are to blame.  You can say, that's not what I meant to argue, and I should have been clearer.  But of course, that's not what we've seen play out here.

For what it's worth, I've said many times that I had no clear read on Obama.  That's less true now than it was before, simply because I refused to rush to judgment prematurely, and now I think I've finally got enough data to be significantly more certain.  I think there's still considerable ambiguity there, and I would never dispute that as a general proposition.

But to say some politician is ambiguous is not to say that they could mean (or be up to) just about anything.  And the example of the sheriff as frankenheimer portrayed (not so accurately, I now gather), really was that seeming one sort of behavior (gullibility) could be a cover for the exact opposite.  This argument very clearly carries strong overtones of the whole 13-dimensional chess argument--"He's so much smarter than you that you have completely misunderstood what he's up to and can't possibly mount a serious criticism of him."

Add that together with the utter tediousness of encountering this same argument in various forms eleventy million times since Obama first hinted at running for President, and I think that the way Sadie and I responded was entirely justified, and that it still holds water after the belated argument you have just offered in frankenheimer's defense.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
My first comment said essentially the same thing (0.00 / 0)
I don't see the "faith in Obama" aspect in these comments (0.00 / 0)
I think frankenheimer is trying to say that no one really knows what Obama is thinking, or strategizing. Nothing more.

Though I admit it was not as verbose as my latter comments.  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Verbosity Was Not The Issue (0.00 / 0)
It was not how many words you used.  It's what you used them to say.

Your original statement offered no justification, and lacked credibility on its face, since the example did far more (not "Nothing more") than illustrate that argument--it invoked the "13-dimensional chess" meme, whether intentionally or not.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Where's the justification in this comment? (0.00 / 0)
Ah! I'm So Glad To See That 113-Dimensional Chess Is Alive And Well (4.00 / 1)
It restores my faith in humanity.

You offered none until later in the thread. I did the same. Get over yourself and practice what you preach.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
It'as not just these comments. (4.00 / 1)
He's been an "Obama right or wrong" guy ever since he first showed up.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Sadie's Right (4.00 / 1)
You didn't provide any empirical evidence, and the fact that you think you did is quite telling: it tells us that you're mighty unclear on just what constitutes empirical evidence.  Just like BobTegas is.

And just in case anyone didn't pick that up, you made the point again when you wrote:

It was just a few weeks ago that you said Obama would be unsuccessful in getting a public option because of huge tactical mistakes he made early on in the process (<-- not a hundred percent sure you said this, but pretty sure).

Well, I could put words in your mouth, too, if my argument was so weak that I needed to do so.  But that wouldn't prove anything about you.  It only prove something about me.

This is what I mean by "bullshit epistemology."  It's not that you're intentionally lying--that's not the claim.  It's that you're intentionally disregarding the truth.  Indeed, you are specifically arguing that the truth cannot be known.  Which is the very heart of anti-realism.

Now, when you're arguing about what's inside a politician's head, this is one area in which anti-realism is superficially plausible, since we do not have direct empirical evidence of what's going on inside others' heads.  But on the other hand, the only reason we're capable of living as social animals is that each of us is reasonably capable of making pretty good inferences based on indirect evidence.  And we can get even better by debating these inferences with one another.  This process, while not foolproof, is non-the-less empirical in nature.  And you're trying to argue that because it's not perfect, we should just sit back and, essentially, trust Obama.

This a flat-out anti-empirical, pro-bullshit stance on your part.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
we should just sit back and, essentially, trust Obama? (0.00 / 0)
No, I'm not arguing that. I'm saying we don't have enough evidence yet to determine trust one way or another, and therefore Obama's strategy, at least on this matter, should be excluded from consideration in any progressive strategy. It should not be taken into account because its inconclusive. It might inconclusive because Obama is weak, or it might be inconclusive by design. Once we have something verifiable, like a bill, then I think we'll have real, concrete evidence to go on.  

And yes, I did provide empirical evidence. The public option is alive and well in both chambers, and we know this from top sources willing to put their name on the line. If you're willing to suggest Obama has the power to roll people, you have to accept the premise that the public option exists in part because Obama has allowed that to happen. You can't have it both ways -- Obama all weak, Obama all powerful.  

I don't have time to go through all your points right now, but I will.


[ Parent ]
You May Not Be Arguing That Explicitly (4.00 / 1)
but that's clearly where the logic you expressed leads us.

As for your claim that we will know what Obama wanted once we have a bill, you offer absolutely no explanation for why a bill should count as evidence, but nothing else along the way.

And yes, I did provide empirical evidence. The public option is alive and well in both chambers, and we know this from top sources willing to put their name on the line.

That's evidence, allright.  But it's evidence of much more than Obama's intent.

You can't have it both ways -- Obama all weak, Obama all powerful.

I've never argued either, actually.  It's the Obamaphiles who do that number--He can do anything!  But only if we don't criticize him!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
wrong about baloon boy... (4.00 / 1)
But in the meanwhile, everyone thought the Sheriff was being naive and stupid. In the end, because of the nature of the investigation and how quickly it became resolved, the Sheriff was able to let everyone in on the strategy.

This is BS. This was the Sheriff's excuse. I am embarrassed to admit I followed this story, but I knew from the beginning it was a hoax. I saw the Sheriff's press conferences. HE BELIEVED THE FAMILY'S STORY. Only later after someone with a brain pointed out to him that he had been taken for a ride did he come up with this excuse that "he was just pretending to believe them to gain their trust." Many lawyers pointed out that even if this were true, which is isn't, it makes for a terrible legal strategy when you have to tell a jury the Sheriff was being deliberately dishonest.

That being said, I do think there is something to your 3 dimensional chess theory. Most of the time when people make this excuse it's simply horseshit, but I do like one part of what you said:

Therefore, the only metric that matters is the result.

Its impossible for us to ever really know what strategy is going on behind the scenes. Be it chess or luck or stupidity or shitty politicking. But it is reckless to dismiss the possibility that there might be some underlying strategy to what Obama does. However I must note its also reckless to always give him the benefit of the doubt by assuming hes smarter than everybody and simply making chess moves our tiny brains cannot possibly comprehend.

End this war. Stop John McCain. Cindy McCain is filthy rich.


[ Parent ]
Thanks! (0.00 / 0)
I didn't know this. (In fact, all I know about balloon boy is what I see on Countdown and Rachel Maddow.  The music videos Kent came up with were pretty cool.)

Sure does shoot the hell out of frankenheimer's whole thesis, now doesn't it?

He'll just have to find some other bullshit example as "evidence."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
You remind of that guy, Kyl was it? (4.00 / 1)
Who would rather have 30 ideological pure Senators, than a majority. Your argument is false and the only reason I can think of for making the above comment is to reduce the amount of people labeling themselves progressive to the handful of people who share exactly your views. Ridicule will achieve nothing more than alienating the very people needed to build enough of a majority to make your ideology relevant. People who govern understand that principle.  

Now to your disingenuous reading of wiretapp's comment. You said:

Sure does shoot the hell out of frankenheimer's whole thesis, now doesn't it?

Now look at wiretapp's conclusion:

Its impossible for us to ever really know what strategy is going on behind the scenes.

You see, Paul, it's possible to disagree with an illustration of a thesis, while accepting the thesis, at least in part.

Besides, wiretapp did not present any evidence proving the Sheriff actually believed the story, whereas I presented direct evidence that the Sheriff claimed he did not believe the story for the purposes of eliciting a confession, which apparently he did.

You were wrong to accept wiretapp's evidence as final, and you were wrong to assume that a questionable illustration invalidates not only my "thesis", but any thesis, a point wiretapp clearly made, but which you ignored.

Now here's something you said in a comment just above, which I agree with entirely:

The more scrupulous we are about correcting our own mistakes, the more we deserve to be taken seriously.  It's a sign of strength, not weakness, to admit when you've wrong.

I guess we'll see where you stand on this issue in practice.

 


[ Parent ]
I NEVER Said Antyhing Of The Sort (0.00 / 0)
You remind of that guy, Kyl was it?

Who would rather have 30 ideological pure Senators, than a majority.

So why put those words in my mouth?

Because it's much easier than dealing with my actual arguments.  (Which, btw, have no connection whatsoever with the subject of ideological purity in the Senate.)

The mere fact that we can't know exactly what's going on behind the scenes (which everyone here will readily admit) doesn't mean that we can't draw some inferences--particular in comparison with alternative paths of action, such as rallying the army of grassroots supports that he used to get himself elected.

Your "illustration" did much more than illustrate a point that no one would disagree about in the first place.  It clearly invoked the "13-dimensional chess" argument, by virtue of the parallelism between Obama and the sheriff supposedly knowing more than he let on.  If you didn't want to invoke that argument, then you shouldn't have used that example, presented the way that you did.

I'm willing to accept your disclaimer that that's not what you meant.  But where's your admission that you were the one who invited such an interpretation?  And where's your admission that your current claim (we can't 100% know what Obama is thinking) is not something that I or anyone else would dispute?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I never claimed Kyl's words were your own? WTF? (0.00 / 0)
I said your behaviour reminds me of Kyl's words, ie, someone who prefers a small group of like-minded progressives over of a governing majority. That's right Paul, you need people like me.

Also, you didn't respond to the argument I made above in which I demonstrated how your comment was both dismissive and wrong. You clearly took wiretapp's point to undermine my thesis, but even if we accept the criticism as valid, it did not undermine my point, something which wiretapp clearly stated.

That's fine, you've moved on to asking other questions here, and I'm happy to answer them, and hopefully show through my actions how a progressive might deal with being wrong.

The mere fact that we can't know exactly what's going on behind the scenes (which everyone here will readily admit) doesn't mean that we can't draw some inferences--particular in comparison with alternative paths of action, such as rallying the army of grassroots supports that he used to get himself elected.

Your "illustration" did much more than illustrate a point that no one would disagree about in the first place.  It clearly invoked the "13-dimensional chess" argument, by virtue of the parallelism between Obama and the sheriff supposedly knowing more than he let on.  If you didn't want to invoke that argument, then you shouldn't have used that example, presented the way that you did.

I think that's a fair comment, my comment did invoke that parallelism even though it was not my main point, which are that inferences should be based on facts rather than anonymous sources, that we will understand Obama as an ideologue better once this bill is passed, and that a progressive strategy should not take into account unknowable conditions, such as Obama's strategy, since such a strategy might demand some ambivalence, even secrecy, in order to be deployed effectively in this political environment. Either way, the strategy should have no bearing on what we do. There will be plenty of concrete evidence on which to judge Obama in the coming months, even weeks.  


[ Parent ]
Obama is a conservative in the sense of being a timid consensus-seeker (4.00 / 2)
who invariably hews towards the power (as opposed to policy) center, wherever that center may lie at any given time. Right now, power is centered among people and institutions who clearly prefer center-right policies, which is why Obama prefers their policies.

When he said that he was non-ideological, people like Matt Stoller convinced me that I should take him at his word, and that he really meant it. Which is why I think that his clear preference for a weak to non-existant public option, for example, is indicative not of any policy-based preference for it on his part, but of a power-based one--it's what all the CEO's and pundits and kool kidz prefer, therefore he prefers it.

It's not that ideas and policies don't matter to him--they do--just that power--i.e. who has it and can most effectively use it--matter to him much, much more, and that he's never let himself be bound by ideas and policies like he has by power. And, cynical and perhaps even cowardly and unprincipled as that sounds and may well be, it's an ages-old political MO, that only seems out of place in Obama because it clashes with his seemingly fiery progressive RHETORIC. I.e. he talks left, but behaves right.

Obama is not an ideological conservative so much as he's a political conservative. To the extent that he has any ideological leanings, I believe that they range from the soft right to the soft left (e.g. diplomacy over war, pro-abortion and gay rights, equality over liberty, pro-business, etc.). It's just that, because he's not bouod by ideology, these leanings matter far less in his political calculations than his assessment of the current political situation vis a vis a given issue--i.e. where the power lies.

Which, in and of itself, is not a bad thing, because no matter where you lie along the ideological and policy spectrum, you ignore power--where it lies and how to get and use it--at your own peril. It's just that Obama's approach to power, after determining where it lies, is not to take from those who currently have it and use it to do bad, in order to do good with it, but rather to accomodate himself to it, and those who have it, to AT MOST nudge them in a fairer direction. It is in this way that Obama's a conservative, in that he's extremely conservative in how he approaches, accumulates and uses political power.

Put simply, Obama cares less about ideas or policies than about power, and he views power (and those who have it) as something to be respected, treated with kid gloves, and not messed with too much. And to the extent that he persues this or that policy, it will always be done from the perspective of willfully respecting and conforming to the existing power structure, not fighting or seeking to change it, even if that results in weak and even bad policies. To Obama, it's more important to respect and preserve existing power structures and not rock the boat than to enact good policies. It is in this sense that he's a political, but not necessarily ideological conservative.

Or, he won't fight, to summarize.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


To summarize even more (4.00 / 2)
Obama is STILL better than McCain, because McCain would've vetoed any progressive legislation we managed to push onto his desk.

Obama won't support progressive legislation, but he doesn't want to be seen opposing it (hence the behind the scenes deals with Insurance and Big Pharma), so when the Left acts in a coordinated way (as happend with the P.O.) we can get some good things done.

A small obstacle is better than a big one.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
With Obama, we definitely moved leftward overall (4.00 / 2)
ideologically and in terms of policy and politics--i.e. in terms of what has been done, is being done, will be done, and most of all CAN be done. It's just that we haven't moved as leftward as we'd like/hoped, and have kind of gotten stuck in this unsatisfying, insufficient, and potentially dangerous, centrist place.

Obama took us back to the center. We have to do the work of moving us to the left. Obama might not help us do that, and will likely even make it hard to do that in certain ways, but neither is he likely to make it as hard as Bush did, or McCain would have. He might not be what we wanted, but neither is he what we had, and could have had.

One makes the most of what one has, rather than whine about what one wants but does not have. And with Obama, we at least have the opportunity for positive change, even if it's clear that it won't be anywhere near as quick and easy (or pleasant) as some of us had (foolishly) hoped a year or so ago. Something impossible under Bush and unlikely under McCain.

Still, whining can be occasionally satisfying! ;-)

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Don't get me wrong -- (0.00 / 0)
I'm talking to myself more than you!

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Ridgelines in the sand, barricade bottoms, symptons as causation... (4.00 / 2)
...I'm all for anything that focuses more time, energy and resources of smart, committed progressive and lefty activists on systemic issues -- campaign finance, neoliberal finance capitalism (with its attendant necessities of war, modern empire, and the police state), etc -- than on short-term band-aid "reforms," or electoral "choices" between neoliberal warmongers.

I just deleted a too-long screed about systemic change vs accommodation to the vast injustices of the existing system, deciding my time -- and any reader of this -- would probably  be better spent if I went out for a burrito.

So, a couple of MLK, Jr quotes instead of my rants:

"I knew that I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today -- my own government."

and

"...we must rapidly begin the shift from a thing-oriented society to a person-oriented society. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights, are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, extreme materialism, and militarism are incapable of being conquered."

One more:

"On the one hand, we are called to play the Good Samaritan on life's roadside, but that will be only an initial act. One day we must come to see that the whole Jericho Road must be transformed so that men and women will not be constantly beaten and robbed as they make their journey on life's highway. True compassion is more than flinging a coin to a beggar. It comes to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring."

Quotes selected by a guy who preferred Malcolm to Martin at the time.


I see Obama as similar in psychological attributes to Bill Clinton...... (0.00 / 0)
Neither had fathers, and had/have a strong need to please.  (Much too strong a need to please and to be loved.)  They were/are both afraid to make controversial decisions which could be seen in a negative light and will do almost anything to please.  I see Obama operating out of insecurity, even though he appears far from insecure, the same as Bill Clinton.  

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