Doing a Stimulus Right and Wrong

by: Ian Welsh

Mon Nov 02, 2009 at 21:00


Chris over at Construction Software Adice dug into the stimulus numbers to figure out how many construction jobs it has created or saved. The graph to the left shows jobs lost vs. jobs saved and gained, from Sept of last year to this September.

Less than overwhelming.

Meanwhile, the news about last week’s GDP numbers was that a big chunk of the 3.5% gain came from “motor vehicles”, which most economists are reading as meaning that the cash for clunkers program, in which the government gave credits for purchasing a new relatively fuel efficient car if you turned in an older car, was wildly succesful.

The Wall Street Journal bewails that the real cost is more than the 3 billion sticker price, which is odd.  I mean, the government has spent trillions during the financial crisis, and the stimulus bill itself was 787 billion dollars.  In that context, 3 billion is peanuts.

Think about that for a moment.  3 billion for the cash for clunkers produced a huge chunk of GDP growth.  It probably wasn’t the full 1.7%, but it was significant.  So far, about 160 billion dollars of the stimulus bill has been spent (bear in mind, about 37% of the bill was tax cuts and not spending).

What this should twig you to is that most of the stimulus was done in incredibly inefficient fashion.  If 3 billion could be responsible for that much GDP growth, it means the the remaining 157 billion wasn’t pulling its weight.

A proper stimulus should do a few things (more in the extended entry):.

Ian Welsh :: Doing a Stimulus Right and Wrong
  • It should increase spending in the economy or stop a spending decline.
  • It should fix fundamental economic problems at the same time.
  • It should be something which businesses can plan on going forward.

Cash for clunkers met two of the three criteria.  It increased spending in the economy and even pried loose money that wouldn’t have been spent otherwise.  Consumers received a credit, sure, but they also had to pony up some of their own money.

It also worked on a fundamental economic problem in the economy: it increased fuel efficiency and decreased pollution from cars.

What it didn’t do is create any sort of long term demand which business could count on going forward.  It happened, it’s done.  Auto companies can’t ramp up production expecting that demand to continue, auto dealers can’t order more cars expecting that demand to continue, and auto suppliers can’t rehire employees expecting this demand to continue.

But for 3 billion for so much effect, why not extend it, and gaurantee funding for, say, 3 years?  36 billion for a proven effective stimulus is a good deal.

Let’s step back to the construction workers we started this piece with.  What should the government have done to really help them?  To really help the construction industry?  The current real help, forget direct spending, is a tax credit for those buying new houses.   That may seem like it meets the criteria of being ongoing and creating new spending, but in fact it is only ongoing.

In fact, high housing prices are a problem in the US economy.  They need to be lower, because right now they reduce job mobility (if you can’t sell your house, you can’t move), they lock younger people out of the housing market (houses are still too expensive even with the credit), they make the US internationally uncompetitive because Americans have to be paid wages capable of supporting inflated housing prices, and they depress general demand because high mortgage payments are money not being spent on goods other than housing.  Trying to make housing prices artificially high is as stupid now as  it was Greenspan was doing it.

Instead, why go give credits for refitting buildings for energy efficiency, active and passive solar?  Say 10K for a single family 3 bedroom home with scaling credits for larger and smaller homes, and credits for office buildings, factories and so on?  Immediately you have a ton of work for construction workers, if the credits are expected to go on for years businesses can plan for them, and that means manufacturing all the necessary materials including solar panels, and they reduce the amount of energy the US needs, which means it’s solving a fundamental problem in the economy rather than making it worse.

The scandal of the stimulus bill isn’t how much it cost.  It’s how relatively inefficient it was, and how little it looked forward and attempted to fix fundamental problems in the US economy.  Contra the WSJ, cash for clunkers was a good and efficient program.  Not perfect, but as stimulus goes, effective.  Let’s learn from it, and do even better

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Housing prices need to be lower? (4.00 / 2)
'Cos people can't sell their houses?  That's insane!  People can't sell their houses 'cos the houses are worth less than they owe 'cos prices are the lowest they've been in a generation... so, they are stuck with them, and can't move.

Hell, my old house, which I can't sell 'cos I'd take a massive loss is valued less than when I originally bought it 15 years ago.

Exactly how much lower do you want housing prices to go?  Perhaps when everyone's houses are completely worthless?

Around here, you can get a house that was once $150,000 for less than $30K in good condition and in a decent neighborhood.  I read a story this weekend that they can't sell houses in the Chicago suburbs even for $1!

Don't tell me housing prices are too high!  That's absolutely ridiculous!  Housing prices have never been lower.  Go buy one today!


REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!


You should never buy a house as an investment (0.00 / 0)
Indeed by the time you add taxes, insurance and maintenance it's usually better to rent.

So yes we want housing as cheap as possible so that the banks aren't sopping up consumption spendable dollars in mortgage interest. Higher housing values only benefit mortgage lenders not the economy.

I'm with Ian on this.

Jeff Wegerson


[ Parent ]
I didn't buy it as an investment.... (4.00 / 1)
...but a place to live in... a place of my own.  It seems strange to me that someone would promote fealty to some millionare landlord as a better alternative to home ownership.  Few people want to willingly be part of the rental underclass.  

There are few things that this country promotes for the middle class.  The government certainly does very little in the way of education and health care, but the country does bend over backwards for you to own your own home.  People should take advantage of that.  That's your opportunity as an American.  We used to call it the American Dream.

Don't take that part of the American Dream away from us, too. this housing slump has really hurt the American middle class.  We were supposed to be at least safe in our homes.  Now, our homes are like prisons... trapped with no way out.

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!


[ Parent ]
What bigotry are you spewing? (0.00 / 0)
Renting makes me underclass?
Only homeowners are REAL Americans?

Your "American dream" is being "taken away" because you can't demand 10x some schmuck's yearly salary for a place to live?

Sorry but I am still cheering for home price to go down in the San Francisco area, maybe then my generation can afford them. If we even want that financial millstone around our necks. You seem pretty unhappy as a mortgage-owner so maybe it isn't the best idea.

By the way:
The only way my daughter may get in a good public school next year is if we move. Which I can do as I have the freedom of a renter. If I was a mortgage-slave I would be stuck where I bought for years on end.


[ Parent ]
If you didn't buy it as an investment (0.00 / 0)
then you should be able to see the point here. It's the banks that are being anti-American by gaming the housing market for their obscene profit taking.

Owning a house is a dream not an investment as you say.

And when you say "Don't take that part of the American Dream away from us..." are you talking about the banks?

Jeff Wegerson


[ Parent ]
They WERE too high (4.00 / 2)
although I suspect the actual problem wasn't the price of homes, but the salaries of those buying them.

Where I am, they probably need to be a lot lower, I would imagine that isn't true in the Rust Belt.


[ Parent ]
The downside of labor mobility (0.00 / 0)

Instead, why [not] go give credits for refitting buildings for energy efficiency, active and passive solar?

As the owner of an 80 yo house, who grew up in Europe, the nature of home ownership in this country has been a revelation.

The price of labor mobility is that people don't occupy a house for more than a few years (less than 10), and invest in that house accordingly.  Any renovation work is based on the cheapest price available (you want to recoup the money you spent) and the quality of workmanship reflects that customer attitude.  I can see the result all over my house.

In this environment, subsidizing the cost of insulation may be the only way to convince homeowners to do it right.  Otherwise they'll just have some hack in to spread some insulation around and not bother with air sealing etc.  In fact such a program is now instituted in NJ, with rebates based on thermal imaging and the amount of reduction in air leaks in the house based on blower door tests.

Perhaps if Corzine loses tomorrow, he can bring this program national.  Insulation right now provides the biggest bang for the buck in terms of slowing CO2 emissions.  A lot cheaper than placing a shade in space in front of the sun.


The Big Lesson? (4.00 / 2)
Giving people wads of cash* works!

* This is the money they would have EARNED had the right not gutted unions and shipped all the jobs overseas.


You Can Thank Your Libertarian Friend For That (0.00 / 0)
The ones you are forever gushing over.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
It depends on who you give the cash to (4.00 / 2)
Shoveling it to the top .1% of the population, which has been the way the US has done it since the 1970s or so, would not have worked.

It would be nice if we could spend more energy on ensuring the work paid well in the first place - that is, a focus on distribution.  Democrats willing to embrace that message would go far.  

Support a Pennsylvania Progressive for Governor - Joe Hoeffel


[ Parent ]
Christmas Stimulus (4.00 / 2)
You should discuss the real comparison that needs to be made.  We got a 1% to 1.7% hit on GDP for Cash for Clunkers - what did we get for TARP?  Or TALF? Or Maidenlane I and II - we got ourselves obligated for a potential $23.7 trillion with NOTHING to show for it.  The assumption is that we gained financial stability whereas the evidence starting to show that we have just prolonged Wall Street's problems or even made them worse.

You want to do some real stimulus?

Just have the government tell the credit card companies that everybody now owes NOTHING.  And when bankers start screaming how wrong it is, remind them of how much we just flat GAVE to broke banks.

It doesn't cost the government ANYTHING.  And you'll get retail sales at Christmas like nobodies business.

But you know what I've come to expect from Geithner and Summers?  We're going to watch a couple trillion get dumped into a black hole on Wall St, we'll see more record Wall St bonuses, and they'll throw us some peanuts.


nice moral hazard you've got yourself there (4.00 / 2)
And for responsible people like me that pay off their credit card statements every month?

Exactly how much bad behavior are we willing to reward?


[ Parent ]
Yeah, That Sucks (4.00 / 1)
I own my house free an clear, have one small car loan, and a bit on the credit cards.

Us people that lived by the rules, and watched our 401Ks and pensions go up in smoke are the suckers in this morality play.  

Our tax dollars and our kid's tax dollars are paying for those with no morals.

I guess you can tell I'm more than a little peeved.


[ Parent ]
It was your choice to do what you did, nobody made you. (4.00 / 2)
Resenting help to people deemed not sympathetic is like kids fighting over who got the biggest piece of cake, or who mom likes best.

I own two homes, both paid for.  I have zero credit card debt, and I, too, watched them steal my 403b savings and take away my retirement.  If I had a choice to give it to my neighbor or the banks, it would be a no brainer.  I wouldn't mind it a bit if money had bailed out people on the way to the banks.  

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  


[ Parent ]
Yes but (0.00 / 0)
The point is, you had no choice when they took it from you and gave it to the banks. Your whole argument is pointless because you had no choice; your if conditional is known not to apply. I'm sure if we all had a choice, we all would bail out someone else other than the banks. The problem is you never have a choice. The real problem is that government is picking winners and losers and what that means towards personal incentives.

And this whole argument of "well we already spent X dollars, might as well spend a few more" is pretty bad.


[ Parent ]
I was responding to the resentment expressed (4.00 / 1)
at the idea of and irresponsible homeowners and credit card holder possibly getting bailed out.   I don't understand why people are so concerned about people getting something they didn't earn, but corporations are entitled to whatever money they can beg, borrow or steal.  This so reminds me of the anger and resentment Ronald Reagan was able to stoke at welfare queens.   Like any sane human being wants to be at the mercy of the people who work for the welfare agencies.  

The government isn't picking squat.  They are practicing self-interest and cronyism at its best.   Picking winners and losers is propaganda!  I can't believe how many people still believe the crap they fed us to shut us up.  

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  


[ Parent ]
Well yes (0.00 / 0)
I did note, actually, that trillions were spent for very little result, while 3 billion had significant results.

A debto forgiveness isn't the worst idea in the world, actually.


[ Parent ]
Yes, Sorry About That (0.00 / 0)
Can we point that out to the people in DC?

[ Parent ]
Home Stimulus Good Idea (0.00 / 0)
The home stimulus is a very sound idea.

How do you feel about a jobs program to repair dams and bridges similar to TVA and BPA?


[ Parent ]
Debt (0.00 / 0)
While nobody likes the banks, forgiving debt would have two negative consequences: inflation and no credit in the future. Interests rates charged would go up and some people would be completely unable to borrow. This would most likely kill the economy as a good chunk of spending goes off borrowing (just look at our government) and have all sorts of consequences. It might even kill the banking system itself, which some of you might like, but its improbable that it will make us off any better in the short term.

PS: The cash for clunker program doesn't work because you can't create wealth through destruction. Yes, your GDP is higher but you also ended up destroying cars that still had value. The US can legislate everyone to destroy their TVs and windows, and that would stimulate the economy as people probably have to buy new windows and TVs but does that produce a net increase in welfare given the money spent? No.


[ Parent ]
Thank the goddess of common sense (0.00 / 0)
for Ian Welsh.


Stability is a key element often missing w/tax credits. (0.00 / 0)
Just as an example, with winter coming on, I was looking at replacing our water heater with an on-demand system.  It would probably pay for itself within a year or two, but I have to come up with the money to front it, in order to get the savings.  By the time I save up sufficiently to purchase it, and have it installed, the tax credit for it will probably be expired, as it was only put in place for two years (and I didn't find out about it until it had been in place for a year).  Hence, since I don't have the money now, I will lose the credit, which means I probably won't be able to afford it as easily later, meaning I will waste more money on an old, inefficient system, rather than upgrading.  Nobody wins with a credit that is so short-term that it only benefits those that have the money on hand.  

Further, these credits should be "below the line" credits, as opposed to above the line credits; we took advantage when credit prices were low, and locked in a 6% rate for 30 years.  Our income is low enough, and the home mortgage interest deduction so small, that we don't itemize, because it's better just to take the standard deduction.  A lot of these incentives require you to itemize, or you lose the benefit.  


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