Legislative Voting Should be Done Blindly

by: Daniel De Groot

Tue Nov 10, 2009 at 00:20


During the run up to the Stupak amendment, it appeared that the measure could be defeated by turning a few Democrats against it.  In the end, 64 Democrats voted for it, 23 more than the 41 minimum needed to pass it (assuming all Republicans voted for it).  During the vote, some observers described Democrats "piling on" once they saw the measure would pass anyway.  This sort of thing happens all the time, but I have never seen a critical word written about the practice.

Why should it be that when asked to vote on a bill, members of Congress can watch how others are voting, and even change their vote before the result is finalized?  Whose interest is that in?  Who benefits?  What societal value exists in allowing politicians to so obviously shift in the breeze?  

Outcomes in legislative bodies must be a matter of public record, but there's no inherent reason that during the vote members should see how others are voting, know the count, and even be able to change their already cast vote, is there?  Ordinary citizens do not get this luxury when voting; generally no results are published until the polls close (at least for their state).  Should they vote for the wrong person, how many jurisdictions would allow a second ballot, to try again?  

Daniel De Groot :: Legislative Voting Should be Done Blindly
Lying to Voters

One clear winner of a blind voting system would be simple honesty.  Delaying their vote until the outcome is assured, and even changing their votes are well worn tactics used by moderates to pad their resumes without angering their party leadership.  It's really a form of lying to voters.  Kabuki opposition to bills, while nodding and winking to the savy as they pass.  It sure does keep a lot of "moderate" politicians in office, but I don't see how much benefit that is to Americans generally.  Voters deserve to know whether their members actually wanted a given measure to pass or not, which would be more often reflected in their votes if they had to vote blindly.  While there will always be some amount of these predicable result votes where moderates can safely vote against their party without jeopardizing a bill, what reason is there to make this sort of thing easier and more common by allowing them the luxury of watching the decided votes come in first, and then choosing based on  cynical political calculation?  It just subsidizes cowardice.  When you consider how cynical the average person is about politicians (and government itself, partly as a consequence), open tally voting is a needless addition to the problem.

Empowering Moderates

It's likely that this system contributes to the undue influence of moderates on key bills.  The leadership will often have a number of wavering caucus members to persuade and cajole, and probably often over-promises on incentives to ensure they have enough votes "in pocket" in case something goes wrong.  It is exceedingly rare that a bill ever gets defeated these days.  When the House voted down the TARP last year, it was a big shock, which the Village accounted a big failure in Pelosi's leadership to have sent something for a vote without it would pass.  When the Health bill hit 219 Democrats, did Pelosi give the nod to a bunch more moderates that it was okay now to vote no?  If so, what did she have to promise them, and does anyone think they won't collect even though they ultimately weren't needed to vote for the bill?  That might go some way to explaining results like this (as another term for "vulnerable members" is "moderates").

Centralizing Power

Further, there is the spectacle of the leadership leaning on reluctant members in real time while holding the vote open, as Tom Delay famously did during the votes for Medicare Part D, and for CAFTA.  By knowing who had already voted yes and no, the leadership can focus on particular members.  The effect here is to centralize more power in the hands of each party's leadership.  That may or may not be a good thing, but it is a consequence of the current process for holding votes, and worth consideration.  

In Parliamentary systems, there is usually some degree of awareness of the tally during the vote, but generally this sort of thing isn't an issue due to the strict party discipline that usually goes hand in hand with having a parliament.  Further, in Canada for example the manner of the voting in roll call votes leaves almost no opportunity for altering one's vote based on the already counted results.  This seems to be a feature unique to American style systems.

I'd be interested to read the community's thoughts on this.  Are there any state legislatures that keep the votes secret until they close?  It's a wonkish procedural issue, but one which has real consequences for the conduct of American governance.  It's also one could be fixed relatively easily, as either chamber could simply amend their procedures.  The House already has electronic voting from the members' desks.  The Senate votes by voice, but there's really no specific reason other than quaint tradition that this must be so.  Even if this system is kept around, perhaps this sort of thing should be tracked?  Shouldn't voters get to know not just how a member voted, but when?, or if they initially voted a different way?  I suspect one would find a high correlation between how long a member waits to vote, how often they change their initial vote, and how generally conniving and oily they are.  What say you, Progressive Punch?  DW-Nominate?  


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Voting in the House (4.00 / 1)
A lot of good questions raised here.  I suppose that if we forced our reps in Congress to vote blind we'd have to take away their cell phones too, otherwise they would be co-ordinating with each on Twitter or Facebook something...

You might (4.00 / 1)
But it isn't essential to the idea here.  Sure they could tell each other how they're voting, but that's an honour system thing, and there's always the possibility of lying.  The game would still have been altered for the better.

[ Parent ]
At first (4.00 / 2)
when I was reading through this, I thought to myself, "great idea!"

But then I saw some (fatal?) problems with it.

1) Only the party out of power has an incentive to enact such a rule. The Party in power benefits from catch and release and the ability to alter votes, while the party out of power loses (because it makes it more difficult to target false voting members of the ruling party, and because it makes it more difficult for the out of power party to win upset votes, like TARP). This is not really a fatal problem, but something that makes it more difficult to enact.

2) The real fatal problem is that it just creates an incentive to have perfectly accurate whip counts. Over time, a political culture would build up in which it was unthinkable for a member to vote differently from how they pledge to the whip that they will vote. Breaking that pledge would be dealt with very severely, and leadership would come to the floor not just knowing that they have enough votes, but knowing EXACTLY how many votes they have, from EXACTLY which members. The secret ballot does not work as a solution to prevent the leadership from punishing pledge breakers, because while that would prevent party leadership from seeing which members voted against their whip pledge, it would also prevent constituents from seeing the same. So you would have to ban whipping somehow, which seems like it would be impossible.

I still think it is a good idea in theory, and the point about lying to voters in particular is spot on, but I can't think of any practical way of implementing it.

Outcomes in legislative bodies must be a matter of public record, but there's no inherent reason that during the vote members should see how others are voting, know the count, and even be able to change their already cast vote, is there?  Ordinary citizens do not get this luxury when voting; generally no results are published until the polls close (at least for their state).

Actually, I think there is a rough equivalent - polling. Though it is not strictly done during the vote, and is not entirely accurate (particularly with bad likely voter models), it gives voters a general idea how an election is going to turn out. Some people then change their votes based on that. That's one reason why minor or third party candidates are normally hard pressed to get more than a small fraction of the vote, while in the 19th century it was more common for someone with support to come from nowhere, even if they did not have supporting infrastructure behind them.


some great points (4.00 / 1)

1) Only the party out of power has an incentive to enact such a rule. [...]

This is true, and a real practical barrier to convincing Congress to change this.  It would take a lot of public pressure.  The one I keep in mind for issues like this is the elected Senate.  Somehow, activitsts were able to persuade 2/3 of the unelected Senators to pass the constitutional amendment that would see them have to face the voters to keep their comfy chairs.  It can be done, or at least, it could be done once.


2) The real fatal problem is that it just creates an incentive to have perfectly accurate whip counts.

I don't agree this is such a problem.  There are already plenty of incentives for the leadership to try and do this - they can't, not because they lack will, but that they have limits to their power.  Even punishing Joe Lieberman is not without its complications for Harry Reid - he still should, but it isn't without a price.  What about when 5 or 6 conservadems buck Reid's will on a vote - he can't punish them all?  There's safety in numbers, and many members have independent sources of power that the leadership has a hard time harming.  This is the whole "herding cats" thing that distinguishes US legislators from parliamentarians, who tend to be firmly under the thumb of their leaders.  


Actually, I think there is a rough equivalent - polling.

Sure, and in my dream scenario here, I fully expect members would go into every vote aware of some kind of whip count, and might still cast sham votes based on that - but it isn't quite the same as seeing the real actual vote take place.  Polls and whip counts will be wrong from time to time, so there would always be some doubt.


[ Parent ]
The fake candidate (4.00 / 3)
The same thing takes place in some tightly controlled state legislature to an even greater degree.  Local newspapers, for example, often commented that George Pataki was being set up to run for higher office when he was in the NY State Senate.  Pataki was one of one or two votes allowed to stray consistently to build up a "moderate" record for a future state-wide run.

I suspect that the same was probably true for Barack Obama in Illinois.  All those "Present" votes sound like a set up.

The present system is an insult to voters.  Organize against those who voted for Stupak?  How do you identify the 20 who piled on?  Use "voting records" to pick a candidate for a higher office?  Those very voting records are often manufactured specifically for the election campaign.

This is a "sophisticated" form of voter fraud that partially disenfranchises voters.  Worse, it disenfranchises those who put in the time to study legislation and voting records.

This is a very timely diary, Daniel.  It also has meaning for the long term.


can't support the idea (0.00 / 0)
I could support the idea if the legislator vote records were also private, but we need to know that for accountability.  And since all the legsilators' votes become known, then this is really just a distinction on whether their vote is known before the vote or after the vote.  I think keeping it blind beforehand would just create a lot of unnecessary drama, and it would make house/senate leadership look a lot less powerful, when the bodies really do need leadership in order to get anything done that fits an actual strategy or vision.

Why isn't it enough (0.00 / 0)
for the "leadership" to guide the crafting of the bill in the first place?

Why do they also need to orchestrate the vote, when that helps the establishment and not the people?

I might agree with you if we had a real government. But under these utterly corrupt, corporatist conditions, this leadership should be rendered less powerful.

Who the heck benefits from their power? Not us.

(Of course, those conditions are why nothing like this could ever be enacted.)

http://attempter.wordpress.com


[ Parent ]
Since the leadership (4.00 / 1)
can be counted on to act in a predatory, anti-public interest way, and will try to orchestrate votes to serve that corporatist line, then it follows that blind voting could only help, by rendering it slightly more likely a vote would go against the leadership's intentions.

This could in turn force the leadership to be less antidemocratic in crafting the bill in the first place.  

http://attempter.wordpress.com


I think it's a Westminster holdover (4.00 / 1)
I'm no great expert on eighteenth century parliamentary practice, but certainly at present voting in the House of Commons is done by division - those in favour of the bill go through one door, those opposed through the other. The whips, of course, are watching and will try to force wavering members to vote the 'correct' way.

Whilst Washington has refined the process somewhat, it reads to me as an evolution of that, whereas Canada's legislative structures are the product of nineteenth century good government reformers.

I certainly agree it needs to change, but I suspect it's very deeply embedded in the system.

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