Two Questions

by: Mike Lux

Fri Nov 20, 2009 at 11:30


Being into the whole history thing enough to have written a book on it, I tend to take a long view on the big policy battles we fight today. As I wrote the other day, no piece of legislation ever gets to perfection, and on plenty of them you can have a perfectly legitimate debate even over the most well-intentioned bill over whether it does more harm than good. In addition to the actual policy particulars, lawmakers have to weigh (if they care about political survival) a wide range of other factors, including the political implications both nationally and in their home districts, the symbolism of what they are doing, how the interest groups and donors that matter the most to them are impacted, and how the media nationally and back home are treating the issue. Trying to factor in all these things is intense, and it is understandable that politicians sometimes have trouble making up their minds.

For reasonably progressive-minded advocates and lawmakers on a huge issue like health care, after you factor in all of the above, at the end of the day you also have to ask yourself two very big questions. The first is whether the passage of this legislation sets the stage on other issues for better or worse things to come. The second is whether the legislation, even with all of its flaws and compromises, creates a platform to build on in the future.

Mike Lux :: Two Questions
I know that all of you think I'm writing about health care, and I am. But I think these two questions are equally applicable to the other big fights looming immediately in front of us- climate change, financial reform, immigration, maybe (hopefully) a jobs bill, Employee Free Choice Act. In every single case, progressives are going to have to make difficult decisions re the compromises they will be forced to make. On none of these issues will we be able to get what we want, and some of the tradeoffs will really suck. But as we are debating the policy pros and cons, we also need to keep those two big questions in mind.

Bob Creamer's post yesterday eloquently makes the argument for health care based on the first question, and my own experience in the Clinton White House, and in researching and writing my book, makes me think Bob nails it dead on. When we lost on health care in 1994, and then lost Congress in the elections because our base was so discouraged that they didn't turn out, it made Clinton and Democrats in general hyper-cautious about trying to do anything big or bold the rest of his Presidency. If we had won on health care, we would have kept Congress, and we would have emboldened Democrats to try other big things. It is one of the most basic laws in politics: victory makes you stronger, and defeat makes you weaker. You can fault Obama for some of his specific policy proposals, and for being too ready to compromise on some things, but one thing he has been willing to do is try to do big things, and if health care goes down, the attempt to do big things will probably will stop- climate change probably is given up on as too hard, financial reform gets weaker, efforts to create more jobs probably is given up on, immigration reform very likely gets shelved. If a health care bill is passed, as Bob argues, it will create the possibility of doing other big things.

The second question is more complicated, and depends on how you read the policy being developed. Paul Begala and I got into a debate this summer, because he was suggesting that progressives were being too stubborn on the public option, that we were "making the perfect the enemy of the good." I strongly disagreed with that argument, saying that I believed some reasonably strong form of a public option was an absolutely essential component of health care reform, because without it there would no check at all on the power of the private insurance industry. I still think I'm right, that the public option is part of the thing that gives us a platform we can build on for the future, but Paul's strongest argument was about Social Security: that when it was first passed, it was far weaker than today, and had many flaws progressives of today would have been rightfully upset about, but that it was a platform future progressives could build on. I think that's how we have to view this health care bill, the climate change bill, and at least some other legislation coming down the pike.

Making big changes is incredibly hard in this country. As I write about in The Progressive Revolution, chances to make truly big changes only tend to come along every 30-40 years, and those chances can be snuffed out very quickly, like they were with Clinton on health care. Where there is some early success, momentum can build into something bigger and more progressive over time: Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, and LBJ all achieved most of their big historic changes after more than a year in office. We need to create that platform so we can build big change one step at a time. Every one of those steps will be slow and painful and infuriating. I still have hope, though, if we can get the first step of health care done, we can take another step, and then another one, and that we will be able to look back many years from now with pride because we made big change history when our opportunity for it came.


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Two Questions | 55 comments
so I should support being forced to buy insurance from Cigna... (4.00 / 2)
...because one day there might be single payer?

This bill sets the stage for more corporate welfare and very little else.  Better to let it rot on the vine than choke on the seeds.


So sick of apologists (4.00 / 2)
I'm getting so sick of apologists of our current system like you.  If we had the Reid bill in place today, not a single person at this site would support dropping millions for health care.  Not a single person would support dropping the public option, or millions in subsidies, or insurance industry federal regulations.  Instead, we would be fighting to improve all of these things.

But today, some apologists of the current system just think things are good enough right now that no step short of single payer is worth it.

Brilliant!


[ Parent ]
No one thinks the current system is good enough (4.00 / 2)
I'm not sure what your argument is when you say: "But today, some apologists of the current system just think things are good enough right now that no step short of single payer is worth it."

No one is saying that.


[ Parent ]
I'm staunchly against the entire concept of for-profit healthcare (0.00 / 0)
How does this make me an apologist for the status quo?  I hate this bill not because it upsets the apple cart, but because it doesn't nationalize the sale of said apples. Things are fucking terrible right now but in its current form this bill makes things even worse (see: dorf's comment below).  It's kind of nutty, btw, for a comitted centrist to attempt to paint me as a conservative in order to dismiss my point (which is, at the end of the day, that I don't want to be forced to contribute to Blue Cross' profit margins).

[ Parent ]
How does it make things worse? (0.00 / 0)
How can you say that eliminating preexisting condition requirements and excision makes things worse? When unemployed people are able to afford health insurance, how does that make things worse? This legislation will save some peoples lives, and keep many from losing their house due to medical bankruptcy.

You are going to ignore these benefits just because reform will not satisfy your ideological requirement to eliminate profits. I respect your ideology. But I disagree that this requirement is a reason to do as much as possible to alleviate suffering. Especially since there is no chance for the kind of reform you envision to be enacted in America today.    


[ Parent ]
it makes things worse by forcing mandated coverage on working people (0.00 / 0)
coverage they can't afford

the subsidies are based on the dreamland Federal Poverty Line ($10k/year), so they won't help most lower-middle class workers at all (the penalties will be cheaper, at least for the first 2 years)

and of course, there's the abortion language

I'm "ignoring the benefits" because they come at the expense of a large number of people who will be worse off than before the bill

I'm fully aware that removing the failed for-profit aspect of healthcare is off the table- but the solution to that problem isn't to support bad legislation that will penalize working people for making more than minimum wage.


[ Parent ]
My concern (4.00 / 2)
is that if this legislation results in higher premiums for most people, it will be worse than nothing politically, because it will make it harder to get other things done, including fixing the sucky aspects of this bill. What pisses me off is that the Rahm Emmanual administration appears to be unwilling to apply the same kind of pressure to conservadems that they have no problem applying to progressives. The best political outcome for the Democratic Party would have been to pass the best most effective bill that delivers good results. It seems like the clear no-brainer path to this best possible political outcome would have been to play hardball with Nelson, Bayh, Lincoln, Conrad, Lieberman, etc. and their blue dog counterparts in the House, and tell Republicans to go fuck themselves and BTW, stop being such whiney ass bitches. But apparently that's not allowed. There must be some stone tablets in a secret vault somewhere that decree that Democrats must be giant pussies. Maybe they have tiny computer chips implanted in their brains that issue a small unpleasant electrical shock whenever their spine straightens up a tiny bit. The one in Grayson must not be working.

miasmo.com

[ Parent ]
What hardball exactly? (0.00 / 0)
I keep hearing this, but it only goes so far.  Our members of Congress are free agents, elected as individuals. Yes, there are pressures party leaders can bring to bear, but at the end of the day, members can do what they want, and the bigger the group rebelling the more this is true.  You also forget that after Nelson, Bayh, etc. stand Feinstein, Johnson, Kohl, and the like, who are slightly better but hardly progressive, and the same goes in the House.  Too much hardball on the dogs, and the "New Democrats" feel threatened and defend them.

I don't actually feel that the progressives have been successfully pressured either, so much as making a decision that the current bills are sufficiently better/something to work from, that they are better than the status quo.

If there's a problem with Obama and Rahm it's that they're insufficiently committed to progressive policies, I don't know, they won't be pinned down :-(.  But it's not at all clear to me that their tactics have been wrong.

The system is messed up.  If we had a parliamentary system, we would have had universal health care 60 years ago, if not earlier.  Not that constitutional change is achievable either.  A successful leader in our system has to threaten, cajole, hold 'em, fold 'em, do somersaults, etc.  An angelic political genius would still lose plenty of battles.  Pretending it's easy is self-delusion.  It sucks, but that's the way it is.


[ Parent ]
Democrats are not pussies when fighting for the elites (4.00 / 3)
Both teams are in the players' union, and the players' union hates management (us).  The wimp thing?  It should be obvious it's just an act -- Rahm'll fight hard for his people, as we've seen.

[ Parent ]
The benefits cannot be ignored (0.00 / 0)
First of all, I am no apologist for the crappy state of our "representation", especially in the Senate. But as long as the MSM is so firmly in control, and money is so important in getting elected, we cannot expect much more than the kind of legislation which is being considered.

For me, the benefits are significant, and can be improved upon in the future. Edward Kennedy said that his greatest regret was not supporting health care legislation in the 80's because he did not think it went far enough.

Even what you consider to be the drawbacks are debatable. Working people will be required to purchase insurance, but it will be something that will valuable to them, and it will be subsidized at some level. I would prefer that the increased cost of additional coverage be paid by additional income tax, but, hey, not in America.  


[ Parent ]
nothing working people love more than more bills to pay (0.00 / 0)
adding a new option to "pay x or pay rent" is awesome!

[ Parent ]
Nothing they hate more (0.00 / 0)
than unanticipated medical bills they can't pay.

[ Parent ]
speaking as a member of the group (0.00 / 0)
I generally just avoid the doctor

at this point I've seen what medical bills do to people

I'll take my chances


[ Parent ]
You won't get thrown in jail for not paying medical bills n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
not yet, at least (0.00 / 0)
there's still time for Reid to throw that in because Olympia Snowe is feeling grouchy!

[ Parent ]
You will, if you try to pay them with a bad cheque! (0.00 / 0)
Can happen faster than you think. Also, people who are bankrupt because of their medical expenses don't have the money to pay fines. Doesn't take much to land in prison when you're broke.

[ Parent ]
Two sides (0.00 / 0)
When you attack this bill as making things worse, you are comparing the results of the bill to the status quo and defend the status quo side.  I realize you think of yourself as doing something else, but that is the reality.

I'm not trying to paint you as conservative.  Nor am I a committed centrist.  (I'd take your ideal healthcare bill in a heartbeat over any of this other stuff.)

Let me put it another way, you are promoting the status quo over incrementalism.

And yes, that makes you an apologist for the status quo.  If it makes you feel better, that makes me an apologist for incrementalism.


[ Parent ]
this bill isn't even incrementalism (0.00 / 0)
unless the ultimate goal is lining the pockets of the insurance companies

[ Parent ]
But we don't/won't "have the Reid bill in place", will we? (0.00 / 0)
Prior to this point in time the bill was allowed to be gutted of its' strongest points by people who refuse to support it now under the weak leadership of Harry Reid.  
So for Harry Reid to prance around and thank Baucus for this scraggly thing now called the "Reid bill" is not something I'm particularly proud of.
Unfortunately for all of us, 40 Republicans, Harry and the other Senate dogs have lots of time to drag it through the mud some more.

'Reid's bill' has a little life left in it. I'm not hopeful it can retain that life in the Senate under Reid's control with his sagging Nevada polls.  

Nationalism is not the same thing as terrorism, and an adversary is not the same thing as an enemy.


[ Parent ]
Again with Lincoln and Co! (4.00 / 3)
Here's the thing: of the presidents you mention, three did their stuff during times of great national turmoil (TR came after the 20 year Long Depression).

The standpat-friendly Federal government system needs that kind of pressure to yield a quantity of legislation progressive enough to impress readers of this blog.

And, despite, Bush's best endeavors, things are just not that bad with America. (So far.)

Plus - passage of the Social Security Act was followed by three decades or so in which, thanks to the New Deal, WW2 and the Cold War, not to mention that Ike was the GOP's man in the White House, the hostility to 'Big Government' was not so acute.

Supposing the likely best case happens. ie, a weak health care bill passes: how, realistically, is the bill going to get beefed up, given the balance of forces between the two sides?


100% (0.00 / 0)
how, realistically, is the bill going to get beefed up, given the balance of forces between the two sides?

100%.  Seriously.  The real question is how much time it will take for each improvement.  It may be not be for another 20 years or so, or it may be much sooner.

But if this does not pass, we will probably still wait the same amount of time, but have today's system as our starting point.


[ Parent ]
If nothing is done.... (4.00 / 2)
...it will be less than 20 years before the government is on the brink of bankruptcy because of uncontrolled health care costs.

It won't take another 20 years before this is considered again. Health care will become a huge national emergency during the next decade, perhaps within the next five years; and whoever is president, whoever controls Congress will be forced to deal with it. It's only been fifteen years since the Clintons (with no support from Congress) tried to deal with health care reform. If this bill fails, it will remain the top agenda item for every new administration until it is effectively solved.


[ Parent ]
Please justify this conclusion (4.00 / 3)
But if this does not pass, we will probably still wait the same amount of time

If the status quo is as bad as we all seem to agree, then why would the pressure to enact reform evaporate?  

On the other hand, if a bill passes that improves the status quo yet does not fundamentally challenge the for-profit insurance business model, the pressure to improve, alter, or revisit the issue will have been reduced.

I often hear the argument you have made, i.e. if no bill passes we have to wait another 20 yrs or so, but I rarely see any justification for why such should be the case.

Actually, it seems like a concession of failure on the part of activists. In essence they are admitting that, despite all the public interest and desire to have health care reform in the US, they will not be able to harness that public will to force the politician to try again should it become necessary to vote against this bill. Strangely, these same folks turn around and try to convince me that passing a watered-down bill is OK because they can muster enough political will to improve the bill later.  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
20 (0.00 / 0)
First, please note I said 20 years or less, not more.  My claim is healthcare will be revisited whether this bill passes or not.  Saying the time frame will be the same in these alternate universes is purely guesswork, of course, but sounds about right.  The improvements made in the bill will take pressure off to make a change, but at the same time make additional change much easier; my guess is the effects cancel each other out.

But look at the two alternate universes where the bill passes and does not.  If the bill does not pass, do you really, honestly think Obama will believe he was too conservative in his approach?  Do you think a Republican would think that?  How long do you think it will take before Obama is replaced by a more liberal president?  So we are talking 2016 at the earliest.

If the bill passes, there will be less pressure and need to make changes, but numbers can be easily tweaked if desired.  Or when that next, more liberal president comes in, he can do nothing but beef up the public option, since the exchanges and other components are already in place.  Thinking about most realistic changes, they will be easier to implement after this bill passes.


[ Parent ]
I see your reasoning (0.00 / 0)
You ask:

If the bill does not pass, do you really, honestly think Obama will believe he was too conservative in his approach?

I would say, "yes". Of course, it matters how the bill dies. Look, Obama has tried the "bipartisan" approach, which basically meant moving in a more conservative direction in order to gain GOP support. The result: Not a single vote on a bill watered down to gain those votes. Conclusion: going conservative did not help.

So, the general response is to move further to the right. Maybe now, they go so far to appease the GOppers and Corpo-Dems that they lose the progressive block and the bill dies. Still no or few votes from the right. Conclusion: going conservative did not help and actually lost votes.

If these are the scenarios I don't see how anyone could come to any other conclusion than the approach and the final bill were too conservative.

Of course, Republicans aren't going to see it that way, but they have been shown to be "negotiating" in bad faith because they won concessions and still did not cast a "yea" vote.

So, what is no bill passes and the issue of healthcare reform is THE issue in 2010 (long way to 2012 0r 2016)? How will the GOP and Conservo-Dems campaign on their victory? Can they actually make a case that they did a good thing by refusing to reform a system that many of their consituents know is broken?  What is the more left-leaning candidates in 2010 make the case that it was the pre-capitulation and bowing to the right that sunk the reform effort and voters should choose new representatives to make certain that the healthcare bill put forward in the next congress is able to pass? You know, run from the left for a change?

All that aside for a moment. Even if one plans to vote for the final bill for the reasons you cite, there is little to be gained by making that position clear because it takes away any leverage your vote might have. You should be undecided and seeking concessions from our opponents right up until the moment you vote "yes". That's why this whole "we'll vote for practically any bill" approach has been so weak and ineffective.



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Against the CW (4.00 / 3)
The conventional wisdom keeps repeating that if we do not get this reform done this year we will have to wait 20 years for another opportunity for health care reform. I think this is false. This is just another example how conventional wisdom is really just a defense of the status quo. Not the status quo in health care, the status quo that everything must be market driven and acceptable to our elite. The elite who gain and maintain their power via the very market system they insist we use to address societies problems.

How will the GOP and Conservo-Dems campaign on their victory? Can they actually make a case that they did a good thing by refusing to reform a system that many of their constituents know is broken?

If this bill is so bad, that progressives cannot in good conscience vote for it, then they should defeat it. Because passing a bad bill removes the blame of our failure to reform the health care system from the Republicans and conservative Democrats who have worked to destroy the Bill at every opportunity, and places the responsibility for passing a bad bill on the Democrats.

I am not arguing in defense of the current health care delivery system. I am arguing that we should not be afraid to defeat the bill if it sucks, and make those responsible for the general weakness of the Bill, defend their record in 2010.


[ Parent ]
We agree on that point (0.00 / 0)
The progressive campaign is a different story.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Bowers (4.00 / 1)
Well, if you agree with Chris' analysis re the long term demographic trends being strongly in progressive Democrats favor, I think there is a very good chance that we could make progress over time.
The other thing I believe is that we have to keep organizing, building the progressive movement, so that we can keep fighting for better things, and that we can win some of them.

[ Parent ]
Lincoln, TR, FDR and LBJ (4.00 / 3)
all knew what they were doing, and recognized that to make an omelette you need to break some eggs.

Sadly, Mike, as much as I respect your insights and experience, I still think you're fighting the last war, circa 1993-1994, and the political landscape has changed considerably in the past 16 years (just think of how much the political landscape changed during the 16-year period 1952 to 1968).

Obama ran as a "post-partisan", not as a "bi-partisan" candidate -- he didn't name Olympia Snowe or Dick Lugar as his running mate. So his whole backroom approach to these big issues, fronted with a lot of lofty rhetoric concealing a cagey lack of commitment to hard policy choices, has left us with an obviously inadequate stimulus package and a truly troubling health insurance "reform" that doesn't even kick in until 2013 or 2014. The perfect may be the enemy of the good, but in any negotiation you have to fix a point beyond which you must be willing to walk away from the deal.

Obama and his team seem to think that you can effect reform while getting all the "stakeholders" on board. Lincoln, TR, FDR and LBJ all recognized that there are some people you just can't propitiate -- hard-core secessionists, organizers of monopolizing trusts, Wall Street bankers who thought Andrew Mellon was the greatest Treasury Secretary since Alexander Hamilton, and "Segregation Forever" Dixiecrats. So who, pray tell, in Obama's administration is wielding the jawbone of an ass to smite the Philistines?

Of course you have to pick your fights, and you rightly note that emancipation, social security and medicare didn't get enacted in year one of those administrations. But I suspect Obama and his team thought they could pull this off in a great Nineties-style triangulation.

George W. Bush was a much more effective president in enacting his far more radical agenda. It's long past time for Democrats to recognize that we are no longer dealing with the Republican Party of Ev Dirksen and Bob Michel and even John Tower and Dick Nixon.


Bush-Kennedy (0.00 / 0)
George W. Bush was a much more effective president in enacting his far more radical agenda.

This is only true for post 9/11 related stuff, which is a whole other ballgame.  Take away 9/11 and Bush has nothing except compromises with Kennedy.


[ Parent ]
The financial meltdown of 2008... (4.00 / 2)
...was a bigger disaster than 9/11. You can't "take away" 9/11 from Bush; however it was done, Bush rammed through a number of policies, the Iraq war and tax cuts for the rich primarily, that were radical; and Bush rammed them through "effectively."

The financial meltdown gave Mr. Obama the same opportunity to force liberal policy through Congress and he chose not to use the opportunity history provided.


[ Parent ]
That's fair (0.00 / 0)
I'm not sure this is completely accurate, but close enough.  Obama should be gaining more power from this collapse than he is, instead of running from it.  I'll accept that.

[ Parent ]
alternate universes are awesome and all (0.00 / 0)
but that's kind of like saying "Kennedy would have been a more liberal president if he hadn't been shot in the head"

[ Parent ]
Source of power (4.00 / 1)
The point was to recognize he source of Bush's power.  It wasn't due to his awesome approach to legislation, it was due to 9/11.  Without 9/11 he would have been a one term, failed president.

[ Parent ]
you are vastly overestimating the American public (0.00 / 0)
and the field of candidates in 2004

[ Parent ]
Somewhat exaggerated (0.00 / 0)
This seems a plausible description of some of what's going on with Obama, but it's clearly exaggerated.  I'm sure nobody thinks anymore (if they ever did) that you can make deals with "mainstream" Republicans (right-wing lunatics) on most things.

They're still trying to make deals with Olympia Snowe, for reasons not clear, although it just occurred to me that she may be easier to deal with than Lieberman, Lincoln, Landrieu, Nelson.

Obama's style is very frustrating, and I don't trust him to do what I think is necessary, but it's still too early to write him off.


[ Parent ]
The nail's head (4.00 / 2)
The perfect may be the enemy of the good, but in any negotiation you have to fix a point beyond which you must be willing to walk away from the deal.

If one's strategy is to pass any old bill just because they want to pass something before the next election, where does that "fixed point" lie?


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Obama (0.00 / 0)
You make a lot of good points, but I believe that it is possible Obama will learn over time, especially if the progressive movement keeps organizing and building.
I have not spent a lifetime in politics trying to change things for the better because I am a pessimist.

[ Parent ]
It's hard to care anymore, one way or the other... (4.00 / 2)
...the early draft health care legislation in the committees of Congress compromised so much, that there was little left in it to negotiate in the final battles that remain. I have no doubt that the public option will be sacrificed ( probably tomorrow ) so that the stage may be set for further compromises away from any kind of meaningful reform. After amendments in the Senate, IF anything actually passes, all that will do is set the stage for further weakening of the bill in conference. And then, will it survive a final filibuster attempt in the Senate? Who knows?

But at this point, there's little left in this bill to care about. As the Senate bill is written, very little goes into effect until two or three years after the 2012 presidential election. What remains will simply ensure that insurance and drug company profits will soar. Will insurance rates for average Americans be contained? No. Who will end up paying for most of it? Middle- and lower-income Americans that can least afford it. Will it help Democrats or Obama get reelected in 2010 and 2012? No. The way Obama/Emanuel/Summers/Geithner are running the economy into the ground for the sake of big banks and Wall Street, it's easy to imagine that Democrats will lose many, many seats in Congress next year. It's not unlikely that a somewhat moderate Republican presidential nominee will beat Obama in 2012.

It raises the question: how much of what passes (if it passes) Congress will survive? Nothing but the mandates and profits for insurers and drug companies. In short, average Americans are screwed on this whether it passes or not. So it's hard to care either way.


Moderate Republican? (0.00 / 0)
In 2012, the odds are against a Moderate recieving the nomination for President from todays Republican Party.

[ Parent ]
Disagree (4.00 / 1)
It'll be Pawlenty, or Romney, or Jeb Bush, or, perhaps, Huckabee, or someone relatively unknown and not generally considered a total nutjob. Say none of them are moderate, and I'd agree. But they'll be marketed as moderate, all of them hawking vaguely populist-sounding messages that will have cross-over appeal against an Obama campaign badly damaged by his inept handling of the economy.

And one of them could win in 2012.


[ Parent ]
A lot can change in three years (0.00 / 0)
I agree that who ever gets nominated by the Republicans will be marketed as a moderate in the general election, just as Junior sold him self as a moderate to the general public while simultaneously using code words that led the Christian right to believe he was one of them.

Right now however, the right wing base has all of the possible moderates running staunchly to the right, or for cover. Given the twenty/thirty year battle the Christian right has fought for supremacy in the Republican Party, I find it hard to believe that they will be beat down within their Party enough, if at all, in the next two years to keep them from nominating a staunchly conservative candidate. That is "conservative" in the Christian right fascist mode, not the historical meaning of conservative.

I also agree that if they can be sold is reasonably moderate, and if Obama continues on his current, defend wall street at all cost, mode then a Republican victory is certainly possible. Hopefully, the fiery rhetoric required to satisfy the right wing base and gain nomination will demonstrate to the rest of the population that the moderation is a sham.  

   


[ Parent ]
I am not a big wig like you , but let me respond from pragmatism (4.00 / 3)
a) "The first is whether the passage of this legislation sets the stage on other issues for better or worse things to come. "

The problem ultimately is that we do not know that it will lead to progress. I hope that it will, and, therefore, I support it. The problem, however, with progressives is that many of you assume progress. However, the lesson of the rise of Reaganism is that history does not always progress. Sometimes, especially given a two party system, history regresses. Indeed, even within this battle, there are regressive elements in the bill. We do not know if those regressive elements will win the day over the progressive elements because things like the public option, at least in the Senate version, are set up to fail. There are no such limitations on the regressive elements like the mandates without cost control. Begala got it wrong regarding compromise. Compromise is only of value if it allows a real way forward. That question is right now left unanswered for the reason I discussed. There are other reasons, but the regressive angles in the bill are a big one.

b) "The second is whether the legislation, even with all of its flaws and compromises, creates a platform to build on in the future."

Why should it create a platform? This assumes the dynamics of DC have changed, but have they? I don't see why they have. I don't live there. I am not in politics anymore. However, looking at it from a distance, what I see is that the liberals while well-meaning are constitutionally incapable of playing hard ball politics and meaning it. In short, you will rationalize whatever happens, and that leaves me unconvinced of any platforms for changed future behavior. I suppose we can built on the public option, but that, as is the case now, will depend on who are the players. You leave a lot to be desires as a group on that front.  On a strictly ruthless level of "on the street" level of negotiation, I think progressive are a group that can be played. How has that changed for the future? Remember, the goal is not just any public option, it is one that matters.


progress (0.00 / 0)
As I make clear in my book, I don't believe history always progresses. The slaves were freed, but then the North walked away after reconstruction and we backslid. TR took on the big trusts, but in the 1920s they ran rampant. FDR and LBJ achieved great things, but Reagan and the two Bushes drove progress back. However, see what I said above: I think demographics are tending in our favor, and I think our movement is getting stronger.

[ Parent ]
A third question (4.00 / 7)
one might ask is, does the proposed "reform" actually solve the problem that it is intended to solve? Do you solve the problem of people without insurance by mandating that they buy insurance?

I know that there is much more to this bill then just the mandate on the public, but to many people this will be the day to day reality of this bill. If you do not buy health insurance you will be charged a surcharge on your taxes. The surcharge on your taxes will be much less than the cost of private insurance. If you truly cannot afford insurance, a category that includes most of the uninsured and underinsured, you will choose not to buy it and instead opt to pay the penalty. So, you still do not have insurance but you have to pay part of your already scant resources on an additional tax. This is supposed to make people happy? I am sure that as they write that check they will be thanking the Democrats for solving the health care/insurance crisis.

For all of my adult life the word "reform" has been attached to legislation that has consistently shifted power upward and the tax burden downward. If the Democrats want to build momentum toward progressive change they should concentrate on passing a "reform" of any of the issues cited in the Creamer article that you linked to that actually decreases the power of the elite and shifts the tax burden upward. Now that would be a sea change. I am worried that this bill will be more like the other "reform" bills of the last 30 years than like the sea change legislation that is needed.


Spot on except for one point. (4.00 / 3)
The problem is not people without insurance.  The problem is the vast majority of people do not receive adequate health care, assuming they receive any health care at all.  And even for those who do receive adequate care, when it comes to major health issues, they're likely to go bankrupt in the process.  People simply can't afford health care even with insurance.

As an aside, people have also been brainwashed into thinking health insurance = health care, in large part thanks to Republicans, though Obama and most of the rest of the Dems haven't helped disillusion anyone on the matter.

So the questions are:

  1. Does this bill ensure everyone receives adequate health care?
  2. Is that health care affordable such that at least no one goes bankrupt?  (Ideally, health care should be cheap enough that you don't even need to change your lifestyle unless it's medically necessary, but that's asking too much in this political climate, just like asking for a nationalized health system.)

While I don't expect a 100% yes to both questions, they should at least be far superior to what we have now.  For all the effort that has been put into this bill, incrementalism doesn't cut it.  If it had only taken a week or two, I'd feel much different about it.

Health insurance is not health care.
If you don't fight, you can't win.
Never give up. Never Surrender.
Watch out for flying kabuki.


[ Parent ]
neither/nor (0.00 / 0)
 
As I wrote the other day, no piece of legislation ever gets to perfection, and on plenty of them you can have a perfectly legitimate debate even over the most well-intentioned bill over whether it does more harm than good.

Perfection is an illusion with respect to moral and political issues.

As is Right and Wrong or Good and Evil.

Moral and political values are always relative to 1] the manner in which we were raised to embrace them and 2] the presumptions we make about right and wrong human behavior.

Both are embedded in ever evolving and shifting perceptions of the world around us.

Often these questions are related to our perceptions of the Enlightenment. And the manner in which Enlightenment thinkers related this to supposed "natural rights"----rights said to be "universally" applicable to all of us.

But this is largely an illusion.

What natural rights? Name them. And demonstrate epistemologically how these rights are embedded in...what? Our DNA? Our God? Our enlightened Constitution? Our mores, folkways, customs, conventional wisdom? We don't have any "universal" natural rights. There are no deontological agendas we can impose on particular human behaviors other than through laws, through moral persuasion, through shunning, through punishments and rewards.

After all, there have been hundreds of vast and varied cultures throughout recorded human history that practiced enormously conflicting and contradictory sets of prescriptive and proscriptive social, political and economic behaviors. Are we expected to believe that John Locke came along and reduced that all down to the most enlightened "natural" rights of all?

It's simple: No God [i.e., no omniscient and omnipotent point of view] and all things are permitted. We just come up with different rationalizations to justify them...or to justify the punishment of those who don't share our own.

Try this:

Pick a particular human behavior that revolves around a particular ethical conflict [abortion, conscription, homosexuality etc] and delineate our "natural rights" with respect to them. Then I will respond to it. Nothing will ever be resolved. Why? Because nothing ever can be resolved.



Both health care bills massively subsidize insurance. (4.00 / 6)
As far as taking on these behemoths down the road, either bill would make that more difficult as opponents of reform would be even stronger than they are today after years of huge mandated injections of premiums into their swindle machine.

A bad bill is far worse than no bill.


Begala is a regressive tool (4.00 / 6)
While there are times when I enjoy his witty partisan repartee, he always comes down on the corporate side of things when it counts. He always says progressives are too impatient,  which is basically calling us a bunch of petulant children. It should also be noted he's a rather rich man, and he'll never be sent off to die by a healthcare denial system that likes to kill off those who aren't sufficiently contributing to profits. We should always remember that his paychecks are more important than the lives of countless Americans who aren't as lucky as he.

As for this particular bill, it's looking to be fairly crappy. It looks like it won't even start until 2014 now, which will mean an ever worsening crisis for five years in the interim. Five years of 45K fatalities (assuming that number doesn't skyrocket thanks to our lack of economic intelligence) comes to... another 225,000  dead, just so people like Begala won't call us silly names?

When this piece of crap gets signed into law, it's off the table for the rest of the Obama administration. After that, he'll probably be replaced by a Republican or another Republican-Lite Dem, like the current dude.

So it would seem we've already blown this opportunity. I guess making people wait another 20 years will have to suffice, eh? It's better to be polite to regressives than to serve the public interest!

On what planet do people think this situation will lead to anything other than socio-political strife?

"More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly." -Woody Allen, My Speech to the Graduates


great sign off quote (0.00 / 0)
all too true for the great US of A.

[ Parent ]
They don't need to worry about socio-political strife (4.00 / 1)
since they run the crowd-control weapons.

[ Parent ]
They have way too much faith in those things. (4.00 / 1)


"More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly." -Woody Allen, My Speech to the Graduates

[ Parent ]
It is the most deplorable, anti-public, harmful legislation in history (4.00 / 1)
It's not merely that the health care bills working their way through the House and Senate are "fairly crappy".

They are perversely designed to egregiously harm the health and finances of most Americans in order the inflate the profits of the private health care industry.

If they are passed in any form akin to their present form, the final bill is likely to be the most publicly harmful legislation ever passed by an elected legislative body.

The pending bills show that the large majority of our Congressional representatives are incapable of formulating legislation that negatively impacts the interests of their corporate handlers who have financed their electoral campaigns.

A high school social studies class could never in a million years dream up such a destructive piece of legislation - unless of course its members were bribed in advance by the health insurance industry.

It is amazing to me that anyone can spend any time at all trying to justify anything at all in these bills as representing "reform" or improvement.

As pointed out above, Americans on the whole are under-treated while being bled white with insurance premiums, co-pays and deductibles. Thanks to the health care bills that are on the drawing boards, these costs will continue to rise and even to double, triple and quadruple in coming years -- to that point that even people who are insured despite pre-existing illness, or maintained instead of dropped because of costly claims, will be unable to afford the coverage.

At that point they will be dropped into the dumping ground of the ruined "public option" whose even HIGHER unaffordable premiums will be subsidized U.S. taxpayers because of the eagerness of our corrupted Congress to put taxpayer dollars into the pockets of private insurers whose only goal is to increase their profit margins.

Retaining a private health insurance-dominated health care system will be financially ruinous for the economy, policy-holders, and the government.

And yet that is the only policy option being considered by our corrupted lawmakers who are prevented by their corporate handlers from even considering a single payer system or real public option -- which are the only feasible reforms that would actually reduce the costs and size of the health care sector of the economy.

Onlookers from abroad cannot believe what they are seeing. If I were not seeing it myself, I would not believe it either.

The more people come to realize what a true disaster the legislation is, the less likely it is to be implemented as originally intended -- assuming it is passed for the sake of political expediency by political charlatans who want to claim they have done something about the health care crisis that is costing 44,000 Americans their lives every year because they cannot afford health insurance.

The political elites in Washington, D.C. may like to imagine that with their pockets lined with corporate cash they can do anything they wish. But I believe, as Emocrat above appears to believe, that there will come a time when their actions will unleash a well-deserved tsunami of popular opposition that will sweep them and their corporate benefactors out of power once and for all.


Nancy Bordier is the author of Re-Inventing Democracy: How U.S. Voters Can Get Control of Government and Restore Popular Sovereignty in America and the inventor of the Interactive Voter Choice System. A synopsis of the book and the invention can be read free online by clicking here.


[ Parent ]
Does It Get Votes In 2010/2012? (4.00 / 2)
Having a debate here with progressives about whether this bill is good enough to pass muster is one thing, but how does it play for the Dems in 2010 and 2012?

Even the average Joe can plainly see that we're all being screwed to maintain the status quo (i.e. the masters of the universe).  And apparently, all we're going to get to placate us is table scraps from the trillions being given to Wall St and now, insurance companies.  So did the Dems throw down enough table scraps for 2010 and 2012?

No, they didn't, and the failure of the Democrats to provide enough economic regulatory reform, enough economic stimulus, and enough HCR reform have doomed them in 2010 and 2012.

Normally we complain because politicians do nothing but try and cover their own asses in the next election.  But the WH team doesn't even have the brains to figure out how to do that! Obama played it safe, but playing it safe was the wrong strategy after the economic implosion. Obama is now a one term President.

Amazingly, the US voter is WAY AHEAD of the leaders in DC. Our country is being run into the ground to protect the interests of .1% of the people. The very actions taken to protect these few have doomed us all to another Great Depression. Maybe we'll have real reform when our country hits rock bottom, maybe we wont, but we're sure as hell blowing away any chance to have a soft landing.

So what if we vote in this watered down HCR?  It fails the first and to almost all politicians, the most important smell test.  Does it keep you in office?  And as for future incremental reforms?  Hey, that's so 90's! And we're not heading into the 90's, we're heading into VERY uncharted territory.


Not quite that bad, Glenjo!! (0.00 / 0)
We may have ducked another great depression already, but completely off of the backs of the lower classes, and what little is left of the middle class, and with no real regulatory reform yet. And NO ACCOUNTABILITY for the rich bankster class, just great, sure makes me feel good about having a great recession without real jobs for the people.

I am quite supportive of Mike Lux, and semi agree with what he says here, and somewhat reluctantly support moving forward with health insurance reform.

But as many commentators here, I am so ticked off with us having elected a Republican president with a (D) behind his name. Hell, he just put up that lying bitch for bush, Dana Perino for some broadcasting board position. Enough with working for the republicans, Obama. What is next, are going to nominate hardcore pro republican pro business judges? It was not like he did not say during the campaign that he thought Republican ideas were better over the last 15 years. All of you jokers who said many of us were daft to be for HRC can piss off.

Do something right for the people, Obama/Rahm, or we will not turn out in 2010 and 2012, except for 3rd party candidates. As someone else said, "where are you going to go" is no longer operative in Democratic politics, because we get the same governance even when we vote in a 60 Dem Senate, a 40 plus majority in the house, and a supposedly Dem president???

What a way for us to go down as a country. Such a shame!!! And just what do we tell all of those young voters who turned out to back Hope and Change ??? Way to go Rahmbo!!


Two Questions | 55 comments
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