Climate change news on 3 fronts--denialism, nuclear and coal-shows complexity of struggle

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 10:30


This week brought disappointing news that Asian-Pacifie world leaders--including President Obama--do not foresee a climate change treaty being signed in Copenhagen next month.  This set-back comes on top of a legislative process in Congress that shares many of the shortcomings of the health care reform legislative process.  The two are obviously related, as both represent major needed changes in direction that a deeply opposed by entrenched special interests with enormous economic and political clout.

In my previous diary, "Finding the keys," I argued that what we need to be about is building progressive hegemonic power, and that expecting to win pristine major victories right away--such as single-payer health care--was, unfortunately, not only unrealistic (I'm all for demanding the impossible), but also very likely to misdirect us in terms of long-term strategic thinking.  The same thing applies to the struggle to combat global warming.

It's not that I don't want the best legislation possible--I wrote several diaries promoting the work of 350.org, which I think is utterly invaluable.  But we have to seriously grasp the extent of what we're up against and the extent of the deficits we have in order to be effective over the long haul.  350.org is particularly valuable because it's about shifting the whole framework of debate,  and that's arguably the most important thing we need to do.  But we also need to connect the shifting framework to everything within the macro-framework as well.

Toward that end, I want to step back from the disappointing big news for a moment to focus on three different story fronts that merit attention in order to reflect on the broader strategic struggle to bring rational decisionmaking to the fore, and put special interest propaganda campaigns in their place.  These three fronts are denialism (which involves two different stories), nuclear (concerning a study that undermines claims about the role it can play) and coal (concerning a study that shows its true cost makes it uneconomical even for coal-producing regions).  None of these stories is closely coupled with the intricacies of ongoing Congressional action, all are intimately related to the basic conditions in which those intricacies play out.

Paul Rosenberg :: Climate change news on 3 fronts--denialism, nuclear and coal-shows complexity of struggle
Before getting started, however, here's the headline account that Democracy Now! reported on Tuesday:

World Leaders: No Binding Deal on Climate Change Until 2010

President Obama and other world leaders have conceded that a binding deal to combat climate change won't be reached until at least next year. Asia-Pacific leaders, including President Obama, have backed a proposal to only reach an interim political agreement at next month's climate talks in Copenhagen while postponing contentious decisions on emissions targets, financing and technology transfer until sometime in 2010. The delay has frustrated those who feel time is running out to prevent calamitous levels of climate change. Rajendra Pachauri, the chair of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change described the compromise deal as a severe disappointment. He said the scientific consensus on global warming demands immediate action, not stalling tactics.

Let's now turn to the three fronts described in order, starting with the denialists.

The Denialist Front

There have been two developments on the denialist front that merit attention.  One is the expanded push to misrepresent recent global temperature trends as showing a halt in global warming.  I've written about this earlier this year ("George Will , Washington Post: Traitors To Humanity") but it's getting a much stronger push recently, and it's well worth revisiting, particularly given the other story--a would-be sensationalist "expose" of hacked emails supposedly showing a Michael Chriton-like global conspiracy of climate scientists to perpetrate a hoax.  Because it's novel, more sensationalist, and therefore more exploitable, I'll take up the "expose" story first.

As Andrew Leonard explains at Salon ("Climate-Gate!"), someone hacked into private emails from a climate research center, and know-nothing rightwingers have been reading sinister motives and actions into normal, innocent actions, which real scientists are now working hard to explain.  This includes confusing the Richard Nixon/Karl Rover meaning of the word "trick" with the math/science culture use of the term, as in "the trick is to split the problem into three cases, not two."  This is really nothing more than a rerun of confusing the lay use of the word "theory" as in "guess" or "hypothesis" with the scientific use of the term as "systematic explanation", such as "theory of gravity."   Here's Leonard:

The climate-change obsessed blogosphere -- including both those who accept the science behind anthropogenic climate change and those who deny it -- is in an absolute uproar today after the revelation that an unknown party hacked into the computer system of an important climate research center and posted hundreds of private e-mails to a Russian FTP server.

To climate skeptics, the e-mails prove that global warming is a conspiracy theory....
RealClimate, a blog maintained by real climate scientists, is busy doing damage control. This story will no doubt rage for weeks, so I'm just going to pick one example of the back and forth before trying to take some time to go deeper, if merited.

 Here's an e-mail that has gotten particular attention, with the supposedly damning language bolded:

 

    Dear Ray, Mike and Malcolm,
    Once Tim's got a diagram here we'll send that either later today or first thing tomorrow.
    I've just completed Mike's Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd from 1961 for Keith's to hide the decline. Mike's series got the annual land and marine values while the other two got April-Sept for NH land N of 20N. The latter two are real for 1999, while the estimate for 1999 for NH combined is +0.44C wrt 61-90. The Global estimate for 1999 with data through Oct is +0.35C cf. 0.57 for 1998.
    Thanks for the comments, Ray.
    Cheers, Phil

 Here's RealClimate's explanation:

 

    The paper in question is the Mann, Bradley and Hughes (1998) Nature paper on the original multiproxy temperature reconstruction, and the "trick" is just to plot the instrumental records along with reconstruction so that the context of the recent warming is clear. Scientists often use the term "trick" to refer to a "a good way to deal with a problem", rather than something that is "secret", and so there is nothing problematic in this at all. As for the "decline," it is well known that Keith Briffa's maximum latewood tree ring density proxy diverges from the temperature records after 1960 (this is more commonly known as the "divergence problem" -- see e.g. the recent discussion in this paper) and has been discussed in the literature since Briffa et al in Nature in 1998 (Nature, 391, 678-682). Those authors have always recommend not using the post 1960 part of their reconstruction, and so while "hiding" is probably a poor choice of words (since it is "hidden" in plain sight), not using the data in the plot is completely appropriate, as is further research to understand why this happens.

So, the hacked emails actually reveal nothing more than the normal workings of science-something the rightwing blogosphere knows absolutely nothing about.  But it sure looks like witch-craft to them!  Burn them all! Burn them all!

The irony here is that one particularly silly line of rightwing argument over the years is that global warming is just a makework boondoggle, as if climate scientists would be washing cars if there were no global warming to research.  What these letters show is the real source of work that keeps scientists busy, the un-sensational reality of solving hard problems, cracking the complexities of understanding the real world-complexities that would still exist, regardless of whether the planet was growing hotter or not.  Without global warming, these same scientists would be doing the same sorts of things, but within a different organization framework, and with a different set specific problems.  But they'd still be trying to make sense of how different sets of data related to one another, how to resolve seeming contradictions, etc.  And they'd still be using words like "trick" and "hiding" when talking to one another.

Also via Salon comes the latest on pretending that global warming has stopped (Did you know that the temperature drops at least once a day for hours on end, virtually everywhere on Earth!-Well, no, it's not that stupid.  But close.): "Scientists baffled by global warming's time-out"  This is a piece reprinted from Der Spiegel which really ought to know better, with the sub-head "Temperatures haven't risen this decade, as climatologists expected. Is it sunspots? Ocean currents? Secret volcano?"

The reality?  Here's a chart I used in my diary earlier this year:

A similar chart can be found at Climate Progress in the post "Very warm 2008 makes this the hottest decade in recorded history by far*".

What's more, the first 10 months of 2009 were hotter than 2008 by an average of 0.08891 degrees Celsius. (Raw data here).

So, with the denialist non-news out of the way, onto the actual news. First nuclear, then coal.

The Nuclear Illusion: Nuclear Power Not A Global Warming Solution

Report: Nuclear power won't solve global warming

MADISON, Wis. - A new report says nuclear power plants would take too long to build and are too expensive to make any impact on global warming.

The report, released by Wisconsin Environment, an environmental advocacy organization, notes scientists believe developed nations must reduce emissions dramatically by 2020 to limit global warming.

The report says the first new nuclear reactor in the United States probably won't be completed until at least 2016. Money that would go to new plants would be better spent on renewable sources.

State Rep. Mike Huebsch, a West Salem Republican, has pushed to repeal Wisconsin's moratorium on nuclear power. He says groups like Wisconsin Environment are still living off the hysteria of 1970s meltdowns and will do anything to delay nuclear plant construction.

Going straight to the source, we quickly find that it's Huebsch who's living in the 70s, with his antiquated understanding of where the real cutting edge is these days.  From the
executive summary of the report "Generting Failure" (pdf):

Far from being a solution to global warming, nuclear power will actually set America back in the race to reduce pollution. Nuclear power is too slow and too expensive to make enough of a difference in the next two decades. Moreover, nuclear power is not necessary to provide clean, carbon-free electricity for the long haul.

The up-front capital investment required to build 100 new nuclear reactors could prevent twice as much pollution over the next 20 years if invested in energy efficiency and clean, renewable energy instead. Taking into account the ongoing costs of running the nuclear plants, a clean energy path would deliver as much as five times more progress for the money.

Early action matters in the fight against global warming....

  • Reducing emissions from power plants holds large potential for early progress. The share of the U.S. emissions budget available to electric power plants could be as little as 34 billion metric tons of carbon dioxide (CO2) from 2010 cumulatively through 2050.

New nuclear reactors would be built too slowly to reduce global warming pollution in the near term, and would actually increase the scale of action required in the future.

  • No new reactors are now under construction in the United States. The nuclear industry will not complete the first new reactor until at least 2016, optimistically assuming construction will take four years after regulatory approval.
  • However, it is likely that no new nuclear reactors could be online until 2018 or later. During the last wave of nuclear construction in the United States, the average reactor took nine years to build. New reactors are likely to experience similar delays. For example, a new reactor now under construction in Finland is at least three years behind schedule after a series of quality control failures.
  • The American nuclear industry is not ready to move quickly. No American power company has ordered a new nuclear power plant since 1978, and all reactors ordered after the fall of 1973 ended up cancelled. As a result, domestic manufacturing capability for nuclear reactor parts has withered and trained personnel are scarce.
  • Even if the nuclear industry managed to complete 100 new reactors in the United States by 2030 - the level of construction advocated by supporters of nuclear power - new nuclear power plants could still only reduce cumulative power plant emissions by 12 percent over the next two decades, leading to a higher and later peak in pollution. As a result, America would burn through its 40-year electric sector carbon budget in just 15 years. (See Figure ES-1.)

In contrast, energy efficiency and renewable energy sources can make an immediate contribution toward reducing global warming pollution.
  • Clean energy can begin cutting emissions immediately. Energy efficiency programs are already reducing electricity consumption by 1-2 percent below forecast levels annually in leading states, and the U.S. wind industry is already building the equivalent of three nuclear reactors per year in wind farms, and growing rapidly.
  • With the up-front capital investment required to build 100 new nuclear reactors, America could prevent twice as much pollution in the next 20 years by investing in clean energy instead. (Midpoint estimate, see Figure ES-1 and page 21 of the full report for more details.) ....

Nuclear power is expensive and will divert resources from more cost-effective energy strategies.
  • Building 100 new nuclear reactors would require an up-front capital investment on the order of $600 billion (with a possible range of $250 billion to $1 trillion), diverting money away from cleaner and cheaper solutions. Any up-front investment in nuclear power would lock in additional expenditures over time.  
  • Over the life of a new reactor, the electricity it produces could cost in the range of 12 to 20 cents per kilowatt-hour, or more. In contrast, a capital investment in energy efficiency actually pays us back several times over with ongoing savings on electricity bills, and an investment in renewable power can deliver electricity for much less cost.
  • Per dollar spent over the lifetime of the technology, energy efficiency and biomass co-firing are five times more effective at preventing carbon dioxide pollution, and combined heat and power (in which a power plant generates both electricity and heat for a building or industrial application) is greater than three times more effective. In 2018, biomass and land-based wind energy will be more than twice as effective, and offshore wind power will be on the order of 30 percent more effective per dollar of investment, even without the benefit of the renewable energy production tax credit. (See Figure ES-2.)
  • By 2018, and possibly sooner, solar photovoltaic power should be comparable to a new nuclear reactor in terms of its per-dollar ability to prevent global warming pollution. Some analyses imply that thin film solar photovoltaic power is already more cost-effective than a new reactor. And solar power is rapidly growing cheaper, while nuclear costs are not likely to decline.

There's a lot more.  But the bottom line is clear: nuclear is a failed technology of the past  Forget the operating risks. The problem of long-term waste storage has not been solved in over 60 years.  That means that the life-cycle operation of nuclear power has never been achieved.  This is not a solution to global warming-it's the way of creating a whole new environmental problem that would last tens of thousands of years.

Coal's True Cost

While coal advocates push forward with the fantasy of "clean coal", a new report from Physicians for Social Responsibility (PSR), "Coal's Assault on Human Health", shows that coal is not just a bad idea for all of us, it is worst for those who are closest to it, due to the enormous externalized costs to public health-costs that have been excluded from the public debate about global warming, just as they have been excluded from the debate about health care.  This detailed analysis of the health impacts of coal re-emphasizes a point made by a study earlier this year, showing that Appalachian coal-mining communities lose far more in public health costs thanthey gain in cash income.

From the PSR press release:

Coal Pollution Damages Human Health at Every Stage of Coal Life Cycle, Reports Physicians for Social Responsibility

WASHINGTON, Nov. 18 PRNewswire-USNewswire -- Physicians for Social Responsibility today released a groundbreaking medical report, "Coal's Assault on Human Health," which takes a new look at the devastating impacts of coal on the human body. By examining the impact of coal pollution on the major organ systems of the human body, the report concludes that coal contributes to four of the top five causes of mortality in the U.S. and is responsible for increasing the incidence of major diseases already affecting large portions of the U.S. population. A copy of the full report can be found at http://www.psr.org/coalreport.

"The findings of this report are clear: while the U.S. relies heavily on coal for its energy needs, the consequences of that reliance for our health are grave," said Alan H. Lockwood, MD FAAN, a principal author of the report and a professor of neurology at the University at Buffalo.

"These stark conclusions leave no room for doubt or delay," said Kristen Welker-Hood, SCD MSN RN, PSR's director of environment and health programs. "The time has come for our nation to establish a health-driven energy policy that replaces our dependence on coal with clean, safe alternatives. Business as usual is extracting a deadly price on our health. Coal is no longer an option."

Also participating in the report's release were the American Lung Association and the American Nurses Association.

Coal combustion releases mercury, particulate matter, nitrogen oxides, sulfur dioxide, and dozens of other substances known to be hazardous to human health. This report looks at the cumulative harm inflicted by those pollutants on three major body organ systems: the respiratory system, the cardiovascular system, and the nervous system. The report also considers coal's contribution to global warming, and the health implications of global warming.

Viewed in this way, the totality of coal's impact on health becomes clear. Coal pollutants affect all major body organ systems and contribute to four of the five leading causes of mortality in the U.S.: heart disease, cancer, stroke, and chronic lower respiratory diseases.

  • Respiratory Effects: Air pollutants produced by coal combustion act on the respiratory system, contributing to serious health effects including asthma, lung disease and lung cancer, and adversely affect normal lung development in children.
  • Cardiovascular Effects: Pollutants produced by coal combustion lead to cardiovascular disease, such as arterial occlusion (artery blockages, leading to heart attacks) and infarct formation (tissue death due to oxygen deprivation, leading to permanent heart damage), as well as cardiac arrhythmias and congestive heart failure. Exposure to chronic air pollution over many years increases cardiovascular mortality.
  • Nervous System Effects: Studies show a correlation between coal-related air pollutants and stroke. Coal pollutants also act on the nervous system to cause loss of intellectual capacity, primarily through mercury. Researchers estimate that between 317,000 and 631,000 children are born in the U.S. each year with blood mercury levels high enough to reduce IQ scores and cause lifelong loss of intelligence.
  • Global Warming: Even people who do not develop illnesses from coal pollutants will find their health and wellbeing impacted due to coal's contribution to global warming. The discharge of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere associated with burning coal is a major contributor to global warming and its adverse effects on health and wellbeing worldwide, such as heat stroke, malaria, declining food production, scarce water supplies, social conflict and starvation.

In addition to the impacts from pollutants emitted during coal combustion, the report pinpoints negative health consequences at each step of the coal life cycle. Coal mining leads U.S. industries in fatal injuries and is associated with chronic health problems among miners. In addition to the miners themselves, communities near coal mines may be adversely affected by mining operations due to the effects of blasting, washing, leakage from "slurry ponds," the collapse of abandoned mines, damage done to streams and waterways, and the dispersal of dust from coal trucks during transportation. Slurry injected underground can release arsenic, barium, lead and manganese into nearby wells, contaminating local drinking water supplies. The storage of post-combustion wastes from coal plants also threatens human health. There are 584 coal ash dump sites in the U.S., and toxic residues have migrated into water supplies at dozens of sites. While every stage of the coal life cycle impacts human health, the combustion phase exacts the greatest toll....

As for the earlier report mentioned about, Scholars and Rogues reported:

A new study out of the Institute for Health Policy Research at West Virginia University and published in Public Health Reports looked at this discrepency and found that, even using conservative assumptions, the economic costs of coal mining in Appalachian communities far outweighed the benefits from having a coal mine in the community.

The study reached this conclusion by gathering publicly available data from various government databases and then calculating how much economic benefit coal mines produced in Appalachian communities vs. how much the coal mines cost in early deaths. As a result, the study had to prove that there were unusual deaths in coal communities, and they did so using statistical analyses designed to account for the effects of "smokin, race, poveryt, physician supply, education, and other variables." And even after adjusting for all these variables and removing their effects on early mortality, the study found that there was nearly 3000 excess deaths in coal-heavy Appalachian counties as compared to the rest of the US.

Multiply the number of excess deaths caused by "chronic forms of heart, respiratory, and kidney disease, as well as lung cancer" by the official value of statistical life (VSL, the amount of money that each life is worth for cost-benefit analyses performed by the federal government) and you have a conservative estimate of the costs of coal mining. Similarly, use an old 1997 estimate of the economic benefits to Appalachian communites, adjust for yearly inflation, unemployment since the start of the study period, add tax income and subtract government subsidies, and you get a reasonable estimate for the value of coal in Appalachia.

The result: just over $8 billion in estimated benefits to Appalachian communities, but at cost of $51 billion in lost economic power due just to the early deaths of people living in coal communities. Put another way, since 1997, Appalachian coal communities have lost $43 billion dollars that they would have kept in their communities had they thrown the coal companies out.

Conclusion

Collectively, what these stories shows is that the debate over global warming policy is still taking place in a fantasy world, deeply at odds with reality.  The true costs of a major contributor to global warming-the coal industry-have been completely excluded from consideration, even as a fantasy of "clean coal" is being touted to justify yet more business as usual.  The opportunity costs of a failed replacement technology-nuclear-are likewise being ignored.  And ludicrous denialist fantasies are being treated as if they constituted a serious challenge to our most basic understanding of the global threat now facing humanity.

While it's vitally important to fight legislative battles within Congress, the larger battle has to be to change the fundamental terms of debate, and that can only be done by engaging in across-the-board hegemonic struggle.


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The main thing with something like copenhagen (0.00 / 0)
I don't really see a path to 67 votes in the Senate for anything at all reasonable.  Then again, I also don't see the Chinese agreeing to anything reasonable, either.  If it's nigh impossible to get either the US or China on board, I don't see the point of a binding treaty.  

Funny How "Free Trade" Treaties Don't Need 2/3rds of The Senate (4.00 / 1)
Ever noticed that?

So, we could just relable Copenhagen as such, and voila! 50% plus Joe Biden is enough!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Has that been tested in court, by the way? (4.00 / 1)
I actually never really got how NAFTA isn't substantively a treaty.  

I guess the other thing that could be done is, rather than signing Copenhagen, the US could pass its provisions as a law.  


[ Parent ]
Exactly (4.00 / 3)
We don't need no stinkin' treaties--which we tend to ignore anyway, when they get too inconvenient.  All we need to do is pass a law, as you say.  Plus, to make things nicer internationally, the President could sign some sort of "agreement" that doesn't have the force of law with the rest of the world.  As long as the law stayed in place, the practical difference would be nil.

As with so many other thigns, the solution is simple: stop electing Republicans.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Of course, (0.00 / 0)
the only difference would be that the news headlines would say that 'Copenhagen is a failure that failed to produce a treaty'

[ Parent ]
Thank you for writing this story (4.00 / 2)
Some of these issues I was aware of (nuclear), some of them I was not (cost of coal.)  Very good, detailed breakdown of the state of energy debate in the USA.  Now if we could just get something like this on the cover of USA Today or an hour with Wolf Blitzer, imagine the shift in our national consciousness.  I'm not holding my breath for that breakthrough, but I wish we could get there a little sooner than later.


won't be solved with Federal legislation (0.00 / 0)
Bluedogs fear the politics, and won't vote for a Federal climate bill.  They might be correct about the politics; potential for demogoguery is immense.

Most that can be hoped for is to fight off efforts to strip out the Clean Air Act authorities.  Obama will need to lead the charge to protect those authorities.  Let's hope.

The game is at the state and local level.  To change the way that electrical rates are set.  To get a Feed-In Tariff to encourage small solar and to encourage efficiency at the household level.

block by block, state by state activism.

Dozens and dozens of no-name effort.

Not the heroic big splash of 350.org.  Not the save the world law.

Hard thankless work.


False Dichotomy (0.00 / 0)
It's not an either/or thing.  It almost never is.  For one thing, 350.org is intensely local.  It's just local all over the world.

But I do agree that local activism and local government change is going to be lot more important than people realize.  I've written before about local climate change analysis in Rogue River Valley of Southern Oregon, and I plan to write more about that sort of thing in the future.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Thank you for writing this post (0.00 / 0)
I think one of the realities is this:

The Chineese hold a lot of our debt.  Manufacturing hold the greatest promise of profit from the raw materials to the finished product.  They will not give up manufacturing to use "clean power."

They can make our lives significantly worse if they change their attitudes about holding our debt.  Obama has no bargining power with the Chineese.  Thus we will see nothing but "agreements to examine."  I bet that they pulled Obama's string while he was there.

We need to make a lot of progress on clean energy.  We also need to provide for ourselves enough energy to transition ourselves to the new environment.  That is the hard part.  

Conservative......CNN news:Nopenhagen: US PRES 2 WKS LATE ATTEND 1 DAY, GORE JOURNEY BY TRAIN.


Sure, but their lives would be made significantly worse if our lives were (0.00 / 0)
made so, given that we're the largest market for their goods. No doubt Obama's quite aware of what you're concerned with here, but it's just not accurate to suggest that he has no real bargaining power.

[ Parent ]
I guess the answer is: (0.00 / 0)
An answer to the conundrum would be for Obama to say to the Chineese: "Try to collect"  

Conservative......CNN news:Nopenhagen: US PRES 2 WKS LATE ATTEND 1 DAY, GORE JOURNEY BY TRAIN.

[ Parent ]
This Is Mistaken On At Least Two Levels (4.00 / 1)
First of all, the Chinese are a good deal more into developing clean alternative energy than we are.  They see it as the wave of the future, and they intend to dominate it.

While they use a lot of dirty power, and have enormous levels of premature deaths from pollution--750,000 a year according to one recent report--they have come to recognize that this is simply unsustainable, and they are starting to change accordingly.

Second, the fact that China depends so heavily on exports to the US to keep it's economy going makes them just as dependent on us as we are on them.  It's only once they've managed to substantially increase the relative size of their domestic market that they will be able to decouple--or even credibly threaten to do so.

There's also the added twist that a carbon consumption tax--as opposed to a carbon production tax--would end up falling heavily on them for continued production using fossil fuels, since it would constitute a tarriff on importing their goods to the US and EU, but would only further encourage them in a clean energy transition, as that would substantially reduce the tarrif.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Would we be going down the same path? (0.00 / 0)
Would we be better off by purchasing their green power technology and products now to quickly transistion us?  We would not need the immense amounts of energy to manufacture now that we have outsourced most of that.

Conservative......CNN news:Nopenhagen: US PRES 2 WKS LATE ATTEND 1 DAY, GORE JOURNEY BY TRAIN.

[ Parent ]
We'd Be Better Off Developing Our Own Green Technology (4.00 / 1)
Particularly since we invented much more of it than the Chinese have to date.

They're just less controlled by their dinosaur industries than we are.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I thought (0.00 / 0)
I seem to remember that Isreal, had some sort of building code that mandated solar use in new construction.  

This sort of approach I believe would both accomplish the goals of living better and more responsibly.

Conservative......CNN news:Nopenhagen: US PRES 2 WKS LATE ATTEND 1 DAY, GORE JOURNEY BY TRAIN.


[ Parent ]
Wouldn't surprise me (4.00 / 1)
At least until recently, domestic policy there was almost universally progressive, that being a holdover from Labour Zionism's utter dominance up until the 1970s.

That said, solar tends to work better in Israel than in Wisconsin, for obvious reasons.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
Yes, we do have bargaining power. (4.00 / 1)
We can close our markets to their goods. There are things that can be done to get their attention in a very real way. Tariffs, capital controls and so on.

But it's pretty clear no one in DC is willing to even think that way. That's the real problem.  

When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

-- Frederic Bastiat, "The Law", 1850


[ Parent ]
Nuclear power (0.00 / 0)
May not be cost-effective versus renewable sources of energy (though I'm unconvinced and would like to read more from a less-biased source), but that's largely a product of the irrational fear that was instilled by those on the left over the last 30 years.

If we'd been building and using more nuclear power over the last few decades, we'd be in a much better position than we are right now.  This is a failure of the left, and I wish we'd own up to it.


A bit harsh (4.00 / 1)
Yes, some of our current mess can be laid at the feet of Greenpeace in particular.  We (and the planet) would be in a much better position if nuclear supplied 90% of our power today.  

That said, Paul is quite correct that nuclear is currently expensive for the carbon-free power it offers, much more so than investments in energy efficiency and possibly more than wind.  Still, I've been to a number of recent lectures and colloquia on the subject, and the bottom line is that nuclear does have to be part of the solution.  Energy efficiency is the most cost-effective approach, by far, but it simply won't get us far enough.  Nor will efficiency combined with wind, or solar thermal, or photovoltaic.  We need it all.  Every watt we can get that doesn't release greenhouse gases, we're going to need.  It's that simple.  

The question is how the politics are going to play out.  We need to wipe out the dinosaur industries, but it's not going to be easy.  Politically speaking, I'd gladly throw a bone to the nuclear industry to get where we need to on efficiency and renewables.  Coal is our greatest enemy at this point, even more than oil.  Pointing fingers at past mistakes won't help; let's focus on what we need to do: defeat coal.  That means investing in R&D (even off-the-wall stuff with huge potential like ocean thermal gradient) and taxing carbon.  Republicans don't like the income tax?  Fine, let's replace it with a carbon tax.  The whole thing.  All of it.  It'd be worth the trade.  Let's see the coal industry successfully fight off that one.


[ Parent ]
What Irrationality? (4.00 / 2)
Not only has the nuclear industry always been based on government subsidies, even without them it has never proven itself.

The nuclear industry has never been able to responsibly dispose of its waste.  Thus the true cost of nuclear power has never been known.

But even power plants built pre-TMI proved much more expensive as power sources than originally advertised.  In fact, getting rid of these white elephants was one of the motivating forces that drove California utilities to support energy deregulation in the 1990s, which in turn lead to the looting of the state by Enron & it's buddies in the early 2000s.

So there's so many ways that nuclear has already screwed us over, it's nothing but pure fantasy to think they can be relied on to do better in the future.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
but (0.00 / 0)
renewables being cost-effective rely on huge subsidies at this point as well.  I don't see how you can count that as a point against nuclear and not against renewables.

As far as waste goes, NIMBYism and regulations against reprocessing fuel have crippled disposal.  Reid won't let Yucca mountain open despite it being entirely safe.  Post-TMI hysteria (one of the few times the left have openly engaged in a campaign of misinformation and FUD) crippled the industry politically as well.

I agree with kme -- it's certainly not THE solution, but it should be PART of the solution.  Renewables and conservation alone cannot compensate for the power we get from coal.  Nuclear can help with that.


[ Parent ]
to further my point (0.00 / 0)
the media is still doing it -- there's a story on cnn.com right now with the headline "Radiation leaks at Three Mile Island".  OMG!

Except that it was a small, brief leak in a single building that was immediately discovered and fixed,  and the maximum amount of radiation anyone got was the equivalent of a couple x-rays, or less than 1% of what workers are allowed to receive in a year.

But hey, can't pass up a chance at making nuclear power sound scary and dangerous.


[ Parent ]
The Official Story At TMI Has Been Refuted, Too (0.00 / 0)
See, for example: "Energy/Eco-Disaster Anniversaries: Three Mile Island and The Exxon Valdez"

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
refuted? (0.00 / 0)
...that's a bit strong.  As I said at the time, he seems a bit crackpot-y, and is seriously lacking corroboration.

"There are 104 reactors now operating in the United States, but every one of them could be melting as we do this interview."

I mean, come on.


[ Parent ]
Did you not read the critique of nuclear at all??? (4.00 / 1)
An adequate regime of nuclear reactors is not capable of coming online in time nor would it be as cost effective as an arsenal of renewables.  Wind and solar take a minuscule amount of time to begin generating electricity compared to nuclear and this is not something that you should need to be convinced of...its a fact.

The urgency of climate change demands immediate reduction of Co2 and other greenhouse gases as rapidly as possible.  We've already cause irreversible symptoms that wont subsided even if we cut  greenhouse emissions to zero tomorrow. Positive-feedback cycles, tipping points and  delayed effects are surpassing IPCC predictions and there are still people claiming it doesn't exist...

Climate change is what got me interested in politics. I was so confused as to why nothing was being done back in 2005 or so. It didn't take long to realize that some of the roadblocks are so deeply systemic that nothing short of a  social upheaval will shock people into action and that is one of the reasons I will continue to agitate for systemic change at every step of the political process.


Agitate.Liberate.Create.


[ Parent ]
Like Racism, Nuclear Power Tends To Make People Stupid (4.00 / 1)
Or at least narrow-minded and highly selective on the fact front.

You seem to really know your stuff.  OTOH nuclear advocates all too often tend to know only enough to feel superior to folks with average amounts of information.  This pattern of ignoring arguments to the contrary is depressingly familiar.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
. (0.00 / 0)
An adequate regime of nuclear reactors is not capable of coming online in time nor would it be as cost effective as an arsenal of renewables.

What does "in time" mean?  I didn't realize that there was a deadline for climate change.  Yes, they probably can't come online quick enough to impact short-term climate change, but do you really believe that a nuclear plant coming online in 2016 rather than a coal plant would be BAD for climate change?

Sure, investing all that money into renewables might be better, but that feels like a pipe dream to me.  Renewables are great, but I've never seen a report that indicates that they will be able to absorb the country's power demands, even assuming advances in efficiency and storage.

That report is an interesting read, but it feels overly concerned about emissions reductions.  Yes, a focus on renewables may be necessary to keep within the carbon budget it allocates, but is that realistic for delivering the amount of power the country needs?  That's the elephant in the room.  They keep comparing the emission output of 100 new nuclear plants with renewable alternatives, but if they can't keep up with our power demands, and nuclear's off the table, guess what?  We're getting more coal plants to go with our renewables.  

I find it odd that it says that it dismisses concerns about the fluctuating availability of power from rewnewables while at the same time complaining about nuclear creating power when people don't need it.  If we can store power from renewables until it's needed, we can do the same for nuclear, right?

We know that nuclear can deliver a lot of power very cleanly.  It's somewhat expensive, and slow to come online, but I think we'd be remiss to dismiss its advantages.

Don't get me wrong, I support renewables.  But until someone convinces me that renewables can provide sufficient power to take over from coal, I'm also going to support nuclear power.

As an aside, I see Paul's calling people names (along with random mention of racism?) again.  Is that really necessary?


[ Parent ]
Jeeze Louise! (0.00 / 0)
(1) Renewables need subsidies because (a) they're fledgling industries, (b) competing with mature industries that are themselves massively subsidized.

Nuclear's been around for over half a century now, and still can't pay it's own way.

(2) Yucca Mountain is not entirely safe. Folks have been fighting it for two decades now, precisely because it's not safe.  Safer than any alternatives they've come up so far, maybe. But that's not the same as safe.

(3) Do you ever actually read anything that's critical of nuclear power?  Or do you just recite mantras?  Because what you're saying here is directly contradicted by the report.  By the rules of even high school debate, you have to rebut new evidence that's presented.  You can't just talk over it.  That's Fox News rules.  We don't play that here.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
. (0.00 / 0)
1) Nuclear's been hamstrung by political FUD for the last 3 decades, too.  Let's not pretend it's gotten a fair shake.  My point is just that if everything's subsidized, it's not fair to count only one industry's subsidies against it.

2) Again, this is all about NIMBY and FUD.  Yucca Mountain is absurdly safe, and has been demonstrated as such many times, but when people hear "nuclear" they freak out.  It's far safer than coal plants that bellow way more radiation into the air we breathe, but people are totally unconcerned about that.

3) Sure, I read stuff critical of nuclear power.  I think it's unlikely to be cost-competitive with other forms of energy production, for example.  Though I don't think it's really gotten a fair shake at it either.  My original point was that there was a lot of irrational vitriol directed at nuclear by the left when it's vastly cleaner and safer than the coal alternatives that we're using today.  If the left had supported nuclear power over the last 30 years, we wouldn't be in the position today where building a new plant is hugely expensive, we don't know how to dispose of our waste, and we don't have any new plants coming online for years.

Also, please don't accuse me of "reciting mantras".  Not every disagreement consists of the other side just reciting talking points.  I think you're wrong to dismiss nuclear as part of the solution.  You may disagree.  But it's just petty to try to dismiss my disagreement as "Fox News rules".

I thought this was an excellent article on nuclear power, for what it's worth:
http://www.gq.com/news-politic...


[ Parent ]
I agree (0.00 / 0)
that nuclear power has been unfairly lumped together with nuclear weapons. The cold war has had a lot of absurd repercussions and maybe at the time it was politically expedient for the fledgling environmental movement to fuse with the arguments of thepeace/disarmament movement. But then again back then we didn't know about the greenhouse effect in the atmosphere.  

If we had known about the urgency of climate change back then, nuclear might have seemed like the best option. Especially some of the new reactors that are orders of magnitude safer than old ones.  But for me, if I was on a debate team, I would side with renewables. They are unlimited, negating the possibility of resource conflicts, quick to get up and running, clean, safe, cost-effective, and without the baggage of the nuclear industry. I used to be avowedly pro-nuclear but the counterpoints just started to accumulate ...

Agitate.Liberate.Create.


[ Parent ]
But You ARE Just Repeating Talking Points (0.00 / 0)
And you just did it again.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
The Fragile Green Jobs Coalition (4.00 / 3)
Thank you for posting this.  As a climate change and green jobs junkie you've pretty well summarized the enormity of our task, and the depths of my frustration.

It kills me to hear Democrats I love (here's looking at you Sherrod) repeat throwaway lines like "coal will always be a part of the picture".  At that point my environmental justice self wants to request that he head over to Meigs County and tell them that he's okay with the hit that's been put on them by the coal companies.  They have the lowest life-expectancy in Ohio, already are home to I believe four plants and are on course for another.  And being right across the river from West Virginia they're in proximity to plants that they have no say over.

This is the problem with the Green Jobs narrative, and it's one we are going to have to deal with ASAP.  Because we're using 'change' rhetoric (sounds good but what does it mean) about fighting global warming, preventing pollution, and creating jobs all at once and we had better be sure we deliver to each of those constituencies in meaningful ways.  And that does NOT just mean labor people, who largely in my experience have also not come around to the degree to which coal cannot remain a part of the picture.

This is a generalization, but labor people in our coalition see this through a jobs lens and I don't blame them.  They've been brutalized over the last thirty years.  But I think the first step is getting people, companies, and politicians to the realization that coal is fundamentally unsustainable and unjust.  We, and the people who die by coal, are simply not participating in the same, reality-based conversation if we don't recognize that fundamental fact.  We absolutely need to provide alternatives for the folks who depend on coal.  But to throw EJ communities (overwhelmingly poor, Appalachian, women, Blacks, Latinos, Asians, and American Indians) under the bus is a disgrace.  I always go back to Zinn on this:

If there are necessary sacrifices to be made for human progress, is it not essential to hold to the principle that those to be sacrificed must make the decision themselves?  We can all decide to give up something of ours, but do we have the right to throw into the pyre the children of others, or even our own children, for a progress which is not nearly as clear or present as sickness or health, life or death?

Jobs shouldn't kill people.

Figuring out how to be a progressive college graduate transplant to Ohio:  http://citizenobie.wordpress.com/


I think you have it backwards (4.00 / 1)
But I think the first step is getting people, companies, and politicians to the realization that coal is fundamentally unsustainable and unjust.

That is not going to be the first step. Telling people they need to accept the end of their jobs before we can talk about how to replace them is not a winning strategy. People who live in places that rely heavily on coal jobs are unlikely to mobilize to kill those jobs unless there are better alternatives. That is, this realization will not happen without plausible alternatives.  

That said, I agree with your larger point about coal, and your critique of people who act as if we can never move away from coal. The ultimate goal is good jobs and needed energy that does not harm the environment or the planet. Putting allegiance to coal above that in indefensible.  

Support a Pennsylvania Progressive for Governor - Joe Hoeffel


[ Parent ]
Good Point (4.00 / 2)
We DO need a good counter-narrative that provides robust jobs that is visible and more defensible than green jobs currently are, before we can expect anyone to get off this system.  'First step' was definitely the wrong way of putting it.

My comment came more out of the frustration that there are some communities whose concerns and livelihoods always end up getting ignored and marginalized.  Putting green jobs and the greater good ahead of their immediate needs (even as we hope that they will eventually serve their needs) strikes me as little consolation given the urgency of their situation.

Ultimately however you're right, what needs to happen is that we come up with a tangible, replicable model of an economy where people aren't conditioned to believing that pollution and poor health is an eternal sacrifice that needs to be made for prosperity.  But for that we need green jobs to start delivering more identifiably than they have in the past.  And also to frame better.

Figuring out how to be a progressive college graduate transplant to Ohio:  http://citizenobie.wordpress.com/


[ Parent ]
Green New Deal (0.00 / 0)
Done and done. I'm telling you if this doesn't happen, and soon, the generation coming of age is going to force it to happen. Climate-justice-action.org

Agitate.Liberate.Create.

[ Parent ]
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