Obama in China highlights total failure of conservative vision-if you know how to see

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 19:00


Bush's tax cuts & "free market/free trade" policies were supposed to turbo-charge America's economy, while the neo-conservative foreign policy laid out by the Project for a New American Century in "Rebuilding America's Defenses" (pdf) was supposed to be a blueprint for extending American hegemony across the globe, indefinitely, with the containment and subordination of China as a key strategic goal.  Conveniently, those lofty promises of yesteryear have been entirely forgotten.  Otherwise it would have been impossible to cover Obama's recent visit to China without starkly confronting the utter failure of conservative ideology, given its first unfettered shot at power since the 1920s, when it brought us the Great Depression.


It's been a very good decade for China.  For the US?  Not so much,
since the lion's share of that growth went to the top 1%.

What's still missing from American political life is anything vaguely resembling a coherent progressive narrative-or even a coherent criticism of the dominant-hegemonic-conservative narrative.  It's not that progressives are individually or organizationally incoherent, it's that they don't share a coherent narrative among all or most of them, so the net result in terms of the liberal/conservative balance of narrative dominance has not changed appreciably despite the de facto total collapse of the conservative ideological project and the election of Barack Obama.

This is why Obama's trip to China failed to register-as it should have-the utter and total failure of the Bush presidency in particular, and conservative ideology/fantasy in general.  The Bush Administration has vastly accelerated the decline of American power and influence in the world, guided by three different strands of conservatism that have contributed to that failure: (1) neo-conservative foreign policy built on the fantasy of go-it-alone military world dominance. (2) The "free market" economic fantasy of tax cuts and deregulation as a cure-all for everything and a propaganda front for massive give-aways to powerful elites. (3) Christian identity politics fantasy that as a people white Christian Americans can do no wrong, and that anyone opposed to us is purely and simply an "evildoer", who must either be killed, converted or bent to our will.

It's important to fully expose the depth of these failures, because far from being discredited by their failures, these three fantasy policy frameworks are not just still intact, and still considered legitimate, they are still dominant, still the default condition, still constitute the framework of background assumptions against which specific actions or proposals are judged, and still inform the decision-making of the President, even though he is a Democrat who was elected primarily as a repudiation of all things Bush.

Paul Rosenberg :: Obama in China highlights total failure of conservative vision-if you know how to see
The China trip directly confronts two of these three fantasy frameworks-the neo-conservative world dominance fantasy and the "free market" economic fantasy, so this diary will focus its attention specifically on them.  When Bush was elected by the Supreme Court, he proclaimed his popular vote loss to Al Gore as a "mandate" for massive tax-cuts for the rich.  He took office as the first President to inherit a budget surplus since Richard Nixon? Before his tax cuts were enacted, the Congress Budget Office was predicting a 10-year budget surplus of $5.6 trillion-enough to substantially wipe out the debt accumulated by Reagan and Bush I, and virtually eliminate any dependency on foreign creditors such as China. It was known at the time that those figures were inflated-mandated by law to reflect "current law" which everyone knew had to be changed, if nothing else to deal with bracket creep of the Alternative Minimum Tax. But even a surplus half as large could have protected the Social Security trust fund while funding modest reductions in the size of national debt, which would have translated into substantial reductions of the debt as a percentage of a growing economy-the crucially important debt-to-GDP ratio.

Bush's tax cuts immediately changed that, and skyrocketing military spending after 9-11-a fighting-fire-with-gasoline response to his own massive intelligence failure (which should have mandated a tax increase to pay for it)-only made matters substantially worse.  There was also an orgy of special interest domestic spending to compound the budget mess, perhaps best symbolized by the Ted Stevens/Sarah Palin "Bridge To Nowhere", though its actual costs was but a tiny fraction of the total involved.

The momentum from all those destructive policies choices is still driving our politics today.  Even more fundamentally, the assumptions behind those destructive policy choices are actively  still driving our politics today--as when Obama expresses the McCain/Palin economic Neandertahlism that stimulus spending could cause a double-dip recession.

So let's clear our heads a bit, shall we?  And consider just what the conservatives have missed.

China As Rising World Power

Democracy Now! covered Obama's trip to China with an interview of Martin Jacques, British journalist, academic and author of When China Rules the World: The End of the Western World and the Birth of a New Global Order, and a visiting senior fellow at the London School of Economics and a columnist for The Guardian and New Statesman in the UK.  Here's an extended excerpt, which gets right at the heart of the matter--precisely the future that Bush's conservative policies were meant to prevent from happening:

AMY GOODMAN: Your book is called When China Rules the World. Explain.

MARTIN JACQUES: Well, quite simply, we're living in extraordinary new times, characterized by the rise of the developing world as opposed-and the relative decline of the developed world, the rich world. And the most important example of this trend is the rise of China, which is projected to overtake the size of the American economy around 2027. And by 2050, the Chinese economy will be twice the size of that of the American economy. This represents-of course, it's quite a long and protracted process, but will fundamentally shift the economic center of gravity in the world and will have also profound political and cultural implications.

AMY GOODMAN: Talk about those implications.

MARTIN JACQUES: Well, there's been a funny old assumption in the West somehow that China's rise is just an economic story. If you go to the bookstores and look at what's been written about the rise of China, it's almost solely economic, in a contemporary sense. But this is obviously ridiculous, because the rise of a new global power always ushers in the expression of a much more comprehensive political, cultural, intellectual, military, moral influence, and this will in time happen in China.

And that's why I argue the end of the Western world, not that the West is going to meet its maker and, you know, there's going to be the demise of the West. On the contrary, I mean, America will get richer, as other Western countries will get richer. But it will no longer shape the world, as it has in the last sixty years, or the West, in general. For 200 years, we've lived in a Western-shaped world. That era is progressively going to come to an end, as China becomes more and more influential. And you can see this already happening in certain parts of the world, much more than in the West. I mean, East Asia is already being increasingly shaped by Chinese influence of many different kinds.

AMY GOODMAN: Like?

MARTIN JACQUES: Well, for example, the rise of Mandarin in the region. I mean, it's already a compulsory language in several countries-Thailand, for example, and South Korea. And I would expect Mandarin to become, over the next fifty years, a second language in the region, alongside English, maybe usurping English in the longer run. What we've got to remember about East Asia is it's home to one-third of the world's population, and it's already the largest economic region in the world. It's bigger than North America, and it's bigger than Europe.

AMY GOODMAN: So, you've got the issue of language. What are the other issues where you'll see this dominance? And also, what about China in Africa?

MARTIN JACQUES: Well, I think that we'll-in all sorts of ways, we'll see Chinese ways of thinking, which are drawn from, you know, a very powerful sense of its own history, influencing the world. I mean, let me throw something out, you know, that China is not really even a nation state in any conventional sense. Now, we're so used to thinking of countries as nation states. They arrived at something which isn't really a conventional nation state. It's really a civilization state, which thinks and acts in a completely different way to the way in which Western states have operated. So this kind of-the Chinese way of thinking will become-will begin to permeate those areas of the world in which it-with which it comes into contact.

And, of course, over the last ten years, there's been an extraordinary change, which is that China has become extremely active, proactive with many regions. Latin America is one example, but the most dramatic, in a way, is Africa, which is a very short period of time. But China is really becoming very rapidly the most important economic partner of the African continent.

You want proof?  First, here are some charts showing first how China's economy is growing by leaps and bounds, and second how it has come to hold a major chunk of America's federal debt--a debt that has ballooned under Bush, and which was
actually shrinking when he came into office:

In summary, while America's attention has been distracted by any number of questionable issues (Terri Schiavo, anyone?), the momentum of future economic and cultural leadership has shifted dramatically toward China, and we have not even begun to seriously think about what that means, much less respond to it, much less craft a proactive posture and strategy.  The depth of conservative failure here is so deep as to defy imagination.

China As Military Threat

Second, here's a summary overview, and then some choice quotes from Rebuilding America's Defenses showing how utterly unconcerned the neo-cons were with terrorism, and how obsessed they were with China:

Mentions of "China" or "Chinese": 25 times.
Mentions of "Terror" or "terrorist": 7 times.
Most of these are "false positives," however:

  • "balance of terror" between US & USSR during  Cold War-2 times.
  • [Israerli] "terror" of Scud attacks -1 Time
  • "terrorist camps in Afghanistan" - 1 Time in describing declining staffing levels from one tour of duty to the next.  Nothing said about the camps themselves.
  • "the general stability of the international system of nation-states relative to terrorists, organized crime, and other "non-state actors." - 1 Time, something that only neocons might think to mention in arguing for the need for a massive military buildup.
  • "And advanced forms of biological warfare that can 'target' specific genotypes may
    transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool." - 1 Time, "terror" as something relatively innocuous.
  • "In fact, national military forces, paramilitary units, terrorists, and any other potential adversaries will share the high ground of space with the United States and its allies." - 1 Time, terrorists in space.
  • Serious discussion of actually existing terrorist threats as they had manifested in the previous 8 years? 0 Times.

And how did the neocons see China in this same report?  In sharp contrast to their profoundly unserious view of terrorism, they were obsessed with China, seeing it both as a technological and a strategic threat.

First, China as a technological threat:

p. 4

Potential rivals such as China are anxious to exploit these transformational technologies broadly, while adversaries like Iran, Iraq and North Korea are rushing to develop ballistic missiles and nuclear weapons as a deterrent to American intervention in regions they seek to dominate.

p.8:

U.S. nuclear force planning and related arms control policies must take account of a larger set of variables than in the past, including the growing number of small nuclear arsenals - from North Korea to Pakistan to, perhaps soon, Iran and Iraq - and a modernized and expanded Chinese nuclear force.

P 9:  

The Kosovo air campaign eventually involved the level of forces anticipated for a major war, but in a theater other than the two - the Korean peninsula and Southwest Asia - that have generated past Pentagon planning scenarios. Moreover, new theater wars that can be foreseen, such as an American defense of Taiwan against a Chinese invasion or punitive attack, have yet to be formally considered by Pentagon planners.

p. 12:

without the driving challenge of the Soviet military threat, efforts at innovation have lacked urgency. Nonetheless, a variety of new potential challenges can be clearly foreseen. The Chinese military, in particular, seeks to exploit the revolution in military affairs to offset American advantages in naval and air power, for example.

p.65:

Already potential adversaries from China to Iran are investing in quiet diesel submarines, tactical ballistic missiles, cruise and other shore- and sea-launched anti-ship missiles, and other weapons that will complicate the operations of U.S. fleets in restricted, littoral waters. The Chinese navy has just recently taken delivery of the first of several planned Sovremenny class destroyers, purchased along with supersonic, anti-ship cruise missiles from Russia, greatly improving China's ability to attack U.S. Navy ships.

China as a strategic  threat:

p. 14:

In East Asia, the pattern of U.S. military operations is shifting to the south: in recent years, significant naval forces have been sent to the region around Taiwan in response to Chinese provocation, and now a contingent of U.S. troops is supporting the Australianled mission to East Timor

p. 18-19

The prospect is that East Asia will become an increasingly important region, marked by the rise of Chinese power, while U.S. forces may decline in number...

Finally, Southeast Asia region has long been an area of great interest to China, which clearly seeks to regain influence in the region. In recent years, China has gradually increased its presence and operations in the region.

Raising U.S. military strength in East Asia is the key to coping with the rise of China to great-power status.

By guaranteeing the security of our current allies and newly democratic nations in East Asia, the United States can help ensure that the rise of China is a peaceful one. Indeed, in time, American and allied power in the region may provide a spur to the process of democratization inside China itself....

No U.S. strategy can constrain a Chinese challenge to American regional leadership if our security guarantees to Southeast Asia are intermittent and U.S. military presence a periodic affair.

p.45:

The one recent operation where naval forces, and carrier forces in particular, did play the leading role is also suggestive of the Navy's future: the dispatChing of two carrier battle groups to the waters off Taiwan during the 1996 Chinese "missile blockade."

Several factors are worth noting... Second, the potential enemy was China....

Had the Chinese actually targeted missiles at Taiwan, it is doubtful that the Aegis air-defense systems aboard the cruisers and destroyers in the battle groups could have provided an effective defense. Punitive strikes against Chinese forces by carrier aircraft, or cruise missile strikes, might have been a second option, but a problematic option.

p.73:

The reckoning for such a strategy will come when U.S. forces are unable to meet the demands placed upon them. This may happen when....  Or it may happen when a new great power - a rising China - seeks to challenge American interests and allies in an important region.

In summary, the neo-cons never even saw the terrorist coming.  They were taken completely by surprise, and now insist the Obama must continue on the doomed path of failure that they have constructed...not even thinking about the number one challenge that they themselves were obsessed with before getting blind-sided by al Qaeda.

Is there any way to even begin to grasp how utterly foolish this state of affairs is?

There are people in lunatic asylums who deserve to be taken more seriously than this sorry crowd of losers.

Conservatism as an ideology has failed as utterly and completely as Soviet Communism.  It's time to toss it onto the dustheap of history, before America itself winds up there.

It's just that simple.


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Regarding the first strand (0.00 / 0)
Neo-conservative foreign policy built on the fantasy of go-it-alone military world dominance

You say:

It's important to fully expose the depth of these failures, because far from being discredited by their failures, these three fantasy policy frameworks are not just still intact, and still considered legitimate, they are still dominant, still the default condition

Do you believe that neocon strand is a dominant background condition in the Obama administration? You didn't really address that point and I'd be interested in hearing your views.  


It's The Default Condition (4.00 / 4)
Why are we even talking about war in Afghanistan?

That alone tells you we're still being defined by the neoconservative script.  And it's not even the script of what they wanted to do, it's the script defined by their failure.

How lame is that?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Isn't there a difference between starting a war and ending one in terms of ideology? (0.00 / 0)
What's the progressive script for ending a war? Not talking about Afghanistan? Leaving entirely? What if a civil war breaks out? What if withdrawing causes more bloodshed than staying? Then watch from a distance? I'd like to gain a better understanding of the progressive script, other than that we shouldn't have been there in the first place. Even a reference to someone else's script would suffice, just something detailed, unless it really does consist of leaving entirely tomorrow. Sounds kind of incredible, but if that's what it is, I'd like to know.  

Same for Iraq? Do we end subsidies for Israel as well? What does a progressive foreign policy look like exactly?  


[ Parent ]
Funny You Should Ask (4.00 / 2)
What does a progressive foreign policy look like exactly?  

Two diaries I wrote:



"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Thanks (0.00 / 0)
That's exactly what I was looking for. Going to read them now.  

[ Parent ]
I couldn't help but noticen that (0.00 / 0)
neither of those diaries addressed what to do in a scenario of already being in a war, or, of being in this war in particular. They lay out convincing arguments, which I agree with entirely, about how foreign policy should have been conducted, and how it should be conducted in the future, but not about what to do right now.

Otherwise stated, what does a progressive exit strategy look like for Iraq and Afghanistan since that's what you are explicitly criticizing.

I've asked this question before and never received a reply. Thanks for the links to the other diaries though.  


[ Parent ]
There Are A Number Of Folks Who've Written and Talked About This (0.00 / 0)
There is no good answer here, but there are less worse ones.  I don't want to be put in the position of defining what I'm for in terms of cleaning up someone else's mess.  But my over-riding point would be that we don't belong there and our military force can't produce the sorts of good outcomes we might legitimately desire.

The much more difficult problem, IMHO, is what to do about Pakistan.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Candid but contradictory of your criticism of Obama (0.00 / 0)
I don't want to be put in the position of defining what I'm for in terms of cleaning up someone else's mess.

Yet, that's precisely the situation Obama finds himself in. How can we classify his approach to Afghanistan, which he is only now defining after a lengthy review of the facts, as neoconservative if we don't have a progressive point of comparison and if there are no good answers?

Not only that, most commentators agree that the "Pakistan problem" is tied to the Afghan war, the main problem you cited.

If progressives are not willing to lay out a viable alternative, other than to say we shouldn't have started the war, or that the military can never bring about anything positive, I don't see how Obama's approach can be defined as a particular ideology, including neoconservative.

Yes, he inherited a situation that was produced by neoconservative ideology, but the solution to the problem lies in no ideology in particular, or rather I think it's not constructive to view the solution as ideological, other than in terms of what is best for the Afghan population. If staying and applying a different strategy leads to a better end result for Afghans, then that's the progressive script; if withdrawing leads to a better result, that's the progressive script. But I think withdrawing as a de facto progressive script is the wrong way of thinking about it.

Your criticism of Obama on this particular point is clearly unfair.

And what's with "I don't want to be put in the position of defining what I'm for in terms of cleaning up someone else's mess..."

Isn't that what you do nearly every diary?


[ Parent ]
I Didn't Realize This Was A Trick Question (4.00 / 1)
I thought you genuinely wanted to know what I thought, which really can't be boiled down into the space of a comment--even if it weren't rather off topic.

But, of course, since your agenda is to bash me in defense of Obama (like he needs it), if was totally on topic for you.

My bad for thinking you wanted an honest discussion.

But since you want to get into it, I will.

What a progressive foreign policy would look like is that it would define itself pro-actively.  You can't do that cleaning up someone else's mess, so you have to take action somewhere else to begin defining what you're about, framing your big picture intentions.  That in turn will help put a different frame around what you're doing in the process of cleaning up the mess.

The best way to do this, IMHO, is to get really serious about settling the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.  The Arab League made a proposal back in 2002, offering recognition for Israel as part of the final deal--the one key thing that Israel has always said was essential--and Bush just turned up his nose at it, because he wanted war with Iraq instead.  Well, that offer is still on the table, and it's far and away the more promising path to peace.  If Obama had followed up his Cairo speech by saying, "Let's get together and start talking about the Arab League plan," then he would have taken a dramatic step away from the neocon-defined path.  So that's one very important thing he could have done that he didn't do.

Of course, another major thing he could have done is comply with international law, and hold folks in the Bush Administration accountable for torture and other violations.

A third thing he could have done would have been to reverse neocon policy in Latin America & the Caribbean.  Allowing the return of Jean Bertrand Aristide to Haiti would have been a real no-brainer on that front in the early months.  And acting in complete solidarity with the OAS against the Honduran coup should have been a no-brainer after that went down.

In short, there are all sorts of things one can do to begin defining a new direction, that will in turn make the options within Afghanistan more favorable.  And those are the best way in which to define a new direction.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Umm, thanks? (4.00 / 1)
I thought you genuinely wanted to know what I thought, which really can't be boiled down into the space of a comment--even if it weren't rather off topic.

But, of course, since your agenda is to bash me in defense of Obama (like he needs it), if was totally on topic for you.

My bad for thinking you wanted an honest discussion.

But since you want to get into it, I will.

What the hell? I'm not trying to trick you into anything. How is understanding the basis of your comparison between Obama and neoconservatism on the issue of Aghanistan a trick question? You're the one that submitted it for discussion and then copped out on a reply!

You always use this tactic of portraying criticism of your arguments as being mean spirited or deceitful -- or worse -- as being solely justified as a defense of Obama. I don't get it, your diaries are always so well conceived and written, and then down here you throw mud whenever something rubs you the wrong way.  

I'm just a regular guy trying to understand what to think about Afghanistan, as are a millions of other people, and I'm trying to look at the best arguments possible. What can I say, I think highly of your opinion, and I'll repeat what I always say when you throw mud, I am a big fan of your diaries.

Which is why I find it so disheartening that you criticize someone's Afghan exit strategy, which still hasn't been made public, with such zeal without providing any alternatives of your own to consider, because ultimately that's the only standard I understand. What are the alternatives to this shit sandwich? When I ask you about it, you say you don't want to answer the question, when I say well that makes your criticism of the other guy's position a little unfair, you throw mud in my face.

So, no Paul, I'm not trying to trick you, I'm not even trying to argue with you because your brain is just too fucking awesome to contend with, I mean, what you must read and analyze a million pages of policy material and statistics per week, I'm just trying to understand a basic question about what it is people like you, which is to say the true progressives, are proposing on Afghanistan.

You don't want to answer, fine. You said earlier that some progressives you might respect had answered this question, ok, who?

Now, to your above honest opinion about what to do, again, I agree entirely with everything you said, and had you made those points earlier, I guess I would have regarded your answer differently, but even with those measures taken, I just don't see how they illuminate an answer on what to do about Afghanistan specifically, such that it would be possible to differentiate a neocon strategy from a progressive one, especially when so many view the issue of strategy through the paradigm of troop increases.

Maybe you're right to suggest I'm looking for answers in the wrong places, or asking the wrong questions, I don't know. Maybe the entire issue has been framed in a way that makes any answer impossible. But please understand that my concern is borne out of empathy for the innocent victims in Afghanistan and not out of some desire to see war or national building as as a righteous solution. I don't find the idea of leaving people alone who have grown to depend on International support, including security, however mismanaged, and self-defeating, it may have been during the Bush administration, convincing as a solution to the suffering. Whenever someone says - LEAVE! - I think it's fair to ask, well about the people who, wrongly or rightly, now depend on US military presence to live their lives?  



[ Parent ]
Gordon and Kitchener live on (4.00 / 4)
Whenever someone says - LEAVE! - I think it's fair to ask, well about the people who, wrongly or rightly, now depend on US military presence to live their lives?

Whole books could be written about the presumption embedded in this sentence, particularly in the part I've bolded. In fact, such books have been written, not that they ever seem to do any good.

When Paul argues against hegemonic discourse with respect to foreign and military policy, what do you think he's talking about, if not this very presumption?


[ Parent ]
I should probably add (4.00 / 3)
that chief among those people who now depend on US military presence to live their lives are we ourselves. Perhaps, in addressing our own dependence, we might go some way toward addressing the dependence of others. It would rather cloud our preferred narrative, though, wouldn't it?

[ Parent ]
Complete this sentence (0.00 / 1)
"If I were President, my Afghanistan exit strategy would be..."

Let's see how far you can get before saying: well, "we shouldn't have been in there in the first place", or "hegemony", or "all use of the military is destructive".

Give us a sense of what you would do. I'll understand your position a lot better then, as will most readers. It's already very clear to most Open Left readers what progressives wouldn't do, but it's not very clear what they are proposing as an alternative with respect to an actual, ongoing shit sandwich.

Progressives avoid this question like the plague because it's becoming increasingly clear they have no alternative, just platitudes.  


[ Parent ]
Maybe You're Tricking Yourself, Then (0.00 / 0)
Particularly since this diary wasn't the least bit focused on criticizing Obama's Afghanistan policy, except by implication.  But even that was too much for you, I guess.  And to be frank, I'm truly amazed at how quickly you've devolved.

Honestly, I'm not really sure what the hell you're talking about anymore.

Which is why I find it so disheartening that you criticize someone's Afghan exit strategy, which still hasn't been made public, with such zeal without providing any alternatives of your own to consider, because ultimately that's the only standard I understand.

So Obama's trying to figure out how many troops to send to Afghanistan, and that's an exit strategy?

Boy, I'd hate to think what an escalation -- oh, pardon me, a "surge" -- would look like.

I'm sorry I mistook you for a rational person.

Enjoy your kool aide.

And for anyone rational who may still be reading this: Obama's main obstacle in devising an exit strategy, should he want one, is Versailles' continuing belief in the neocon fantasy that got us into that mess in the first place.  So long as he avoids attacking that fantasy head on, he is tying his own hands behind his back to their failed policies, and more importantly to their delusional misreading of the world.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
No, I responded to your diary's cenral claim. (2.00 / 2)
Particularly since this diary wasn't the least bit focused on criticizing Obama's Afghanistan policy, except by implication.

One of the two main points of your diary was to demonstrate that Obama's foreign policy was still based on neoconservative ideology. You did not provide any evidence.

I asked you on what basis you were drawing the comparison.

You presented Obama's Afghanistan strategy as the evidence for justifying the comparison. These are your words, Paul, your arguments, not mine.

And now because it's become patently clear to everyone that you have no alternative, you want to claim this whole discussion is a digression from your main diary claims?

Um, no. Sorry. I'm not going to let that pass.

And yes it's conceivable that an exit strategy could include an increase in troops. Why not? It all depends on how success or failure is defined. In your previous diary, you actually argued in favor of the Powell Doctrine, in which you said:

Once decided, it should be executed with overwhelming force.

Once Obama offers his strategy for ending the war, it might include using more, not less, force, exactly what you prescribed, so I don't see these as contradictory necessarily.



[ Parent ]
Liar! (0.00 / 0)
One of the two main points of your diary was to demonstrate that Obama's foreign policy was still based on neoconservative ideology. You did not provide any evidence.

I didn't say his foreign policy was based on neoconservative ideology. I said it was informed by neoconservative ideology:

It's important to fully expose the depth of these failures, because far from being discredited by their failures, these three fantasy policy frameworks are not just still intact, and still considered legitimate, they are still dominant, still the default condition, still constitute the framework of background assumptions against which specific actions or proposals are judged, and still inform the decision-making of the President, even though he is a Democrat who was elected primarily as a repudiation of all things Bush.

You were quite right to sense that his Afghanistan policy is a clearcut example that I could point to, which is why you are lying about it and calling it an "exit strategy", when Obama is expressly not talking about leaving, but trying to decide on how much he wants to escalate.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Has your counterargument really come down to parsing "informed" and "based"? (0.00 / 1)
Especially when I correctly used your terms in an earlier post in this thread of comments? That's what you call me a liar on?

I'll ask again Paul.

What is your progressive exit strategy for Afghanistan?

Secondly, as I just demonstrated using your own words (truthfully I found it very bizarre that you were pushing the Powell Doctrine as a progressive foreign policy, but that's another argument), an exit strategy cannot be thought of independently of a larger strategy which may include an escalation of military presence as a requirement.

It's not a difficult concept to grasp. In order to leave, you need to meet certain objectives, and those objectives might require a greater military presence to be achieved. We cannot take a greater military presence, in itself, as a sign of whether the goal is to leave in the short or midterm.

Now if your exit strategy is a full withdrawal starting tomorrow (not really much of a "strategy" at all), then yes I can understand how an increase in troops can be viewed as a direct contradiction.

But you haven't advocated for a full withdrawal starting tomorrow, have you? You haven't given any indication of what your criteria is for leaving, have you? Or what consequences you're willing to accept. Nothing.

You're not willing to state it for everyone to read because it will likely bring you back around to having to accept as legitimate some of the concerns that are "informed" by so called neoconservative ideology. That's the bottom line, you don't want to take the risk of taking a hit on your progressive credentials, and from what I can see in these posts, nobody does. That would truly be bold. So-called progressives just want to lecture anyone who questions the logic of leaving right now, or who raises any type of concern that contradicts progressive dogma, as colonialist, or advocating hegemony, or what the fuck ever, anything but taking a position and offering a viable alternative that takes into account the reality of the current conflict.


So, Paul, full withdrawal tomorrow or not? And if not, what are your conditions for a full withdrawal? What would you want in place before leaving? What are you prepared to accept as consequences?

It seems to me if you want to persuade people to adopt a progressive foreign policy with respect to Afghanistan that these questions are important to at least try answering. It will give everyone an indication of how hard it is to make a good decision, and that to me would be an important achievement.  


[ Parent ]
You're So Dishonest That There's Really No Point (4.00 / 1)
I'm sorry I made the mistake of thinking you had changed.

My bad.

p.s. Methinks Sadie may well be responding to the fundamental bad faith you've shown in your arguments.

Although folks may disagree over this, and it's a bad thing if it happens too often, a case can be made for this use of the troll rating.

Go throw your hissy fit somewhere else.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Last time (4.00 / 2)
he tried this crap, I pointed him to McGovern's plan and Darcy Burner's plan. The sound of chirping crickets ensued.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
No Paul, you're dishonest. (0.00 / 1)
I don't care how many troll ratings I receive, the bottom line is that you claimed Obama was informed by a neoconservative ideology based in part on his Afghan strategy, and when I asked what your alternative was you did everything but answer that question, including calling me dishonest, among other things.

And this situation has already come up two or three times, the same evasive tactics, the same calling me dishonest.

You think I'm trying to score cheap debating points, but I'm not. I care about this issue and I foolishly thought given your criticisms of Obama on this score that you might have a viable alternative. Wouldn't it be easier to let everyone know what you propose as an alternative at this point in specific terms?

No, you would rather censor people who have legitimate questions about the views you have submitted for discussion. It's disappointing and makes me wonder what your vision of democracy and free speech is all about if it can't accommodate people like me.  

As for "changing", I honestly don't know what you mean. My questions regarding this issue have been consistent. I believe pretty much in everything you believe. That's why most of the time I fit in. We disagree on this one issue, or at least we disagree on the questions that are important to consider in making a decision, so that makes me a troll.

Nice world you have planned for us.



[ Parent ]
Obama Is ESCALATING In Afghanistan (He Just Hasn't Decided How Much) (4.00 / 2)
So the obvious alternative is to withdraw.

I know you want to make it so much complicated than that.

But in the end, it's not.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Now we're getting somewhere (0.00 / 0)
When and what are your conditions for withdrawing if any? Is it a "withdraw tomorrow" strategy, or over a period of time with certain objectives that have to be met. If so, what are those objectives.  


[ Parent ]
Just Withdraw (4.00 / 2)
The details are just that, details for the purpose of this discussion.

If you want to be free of the neocon framework then the minimum condition is that you withdraw.

Oh, and also cut the military budget, instead of continuing to expand it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Based on the way Obama campaigned (0.00 / 0)
i.e. as the antiwar candidate, despite his immediate concerns about troop levels in Afghanistan I fully expect that the basis of his strategy is to exit the country sooner rather than later.

If Obama's is NOT an exit strategy, what is it?  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
It's called (4.00 / 1)
"piss on your shoes and tell you it's raining." It got him this far, why change now?

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Does that clever non-answer (0.00 / 0)
suggest that Obama's is an exit strategy or not?

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
It is not an exit strategy. (4.00 / 1)
Unless by "exit" you mean "exit the White House in one term."

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Finally (0.00 / 0)
a straight answer.

Let's see how you handle this one:

If Obama is not planning an exit strategy from Afghanistan, then why isn't his war policy being as ruthlessly attacked by those on the left that favor an exit strategy, complete with a timeline, as was the case when GWB was running the country?


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Sadie Baker, wtf? (2.00 / 2)
You're giving me a troll rating? Do you have any integrity at all? Will the open left community stand up to this shameful attempt at shutting down opposing views?

You can disagree with my views, but to call it "trolling"? My god, it's unbelievable to me how even progressives will use the slightest bit of power to censor views they don't like.


[ Parent ]
there's a very good answer (4.00 / 5)
war is destructive.  in this case it's counterproductive for even the narrow strategic ends that were used to justify it, and it threatens both regional and global stability, while it also undermines the government's capacity to engage in more socially productive public investments (generating economies like wind energy that don't produce an increase in domestic violence and racism, rather than military industry, woudl be more useful.)

In terms of the 'what if we get attacked again?' question - well that is always a possibility, whether you waste trillions of dollars in Afghanistan and Pakistan and kill countless people and maim countless others or not.  A narrow attempt to use sopihisticted and intelligent security steps (e.g. capturing and bringing people to trial for illegal acts they commit, preferably in partnership with foreign governments) might work better in terms of resource use than expanding a war that has destabilised one country, and threatens to completely destabilise another already.


[ Parent ]
"what does a progressive exit strategy look like" (4.00 / 2)
A progressive exit strategy looks like exiting. Leaving. Getting the fuck out.
LBJ: "How do we get out of Vietnam?"
Senator: "In boats."

As Dennis Kucinich repeated endlessly in debates during his two presidential campaigns: "U.N. in. U.S. out."

The progressive answer is that we don't militarily occupy other nations.

Here's the exit strategy: We announce that we are turning over the whole deal to the U.N. in six months. Whatever plan the U.N. comes up with, we will contribute manpower in proportion to our share of world population. We will contribute money/weapons/resources in proportion to our share of global GDP. We will do our share, but it will no longer be a U.S. occupation. We will have a small fraction of the soldiers we have there now. We will be spending a fraction of the money we are now spending.

Obama's position now is constrained by his rhetoric during the campaign. Let's not confuse this with progressivism. He spewed macho tough talk on Afghanistan to deflect the typical conservative smearing of Democrats as pussies. Was this necessary to win? Maybe. Is it (macho posturing to compensate for insecurity on security issues) progressive? Um... No.

Progressivism on security issues basically boils down to rejecting all the conservative bullshit that is used to justify a wasteful and destructive military industrial complex that enriches and empowers the rich and powerful without the unpleasant side effect of enriching and empowering the rest of us.

BTW, do you consider yourself a progressive? It's hard to tell. You're on this site, yet you talk about progressives in the third person.

miasmo.com


[ Parent ]
Great reply, thanks. (4.00 / 1)
Here's the exit strategy: We announce that we are turning over the whole deal to the U.N. in six months. Whatever plan the U.N. comes up with, we will contribute manpower in proportion to our share of world population. We will contribute money/weapons/resources in proportion to our share of global GDP. We will do our share, but it will no longer be a U.S. occupation. We will have a small fraction of the soldiers we have there now. We will be spending a fraction of the money we are now spending.

I especially like this part, which I will think about. I'd like to hear other people's views on this plan as well.

Do I consider myself a progressive? Yes, I do. Some have implied my position, which is simply one of asking questions from those who claim to have answers about Afghanistan, that I'm not progressive at all, but some other label -- liar, dishonest, liberal hawk, etc.  So when discussing this issue with people who claim to stand for progressive positions, it's easier to just remove myself from the category and talk about progressive views in the third person.

Thank you for your detailed response, that's what I was looking for from Paul, a sense of what a withdrawal would look like and how it would account for the continued situation of violence and warfare.


[ Parent ]
"how it would account for the continued situation of violence and warfare" (0.00 / 0)
I suspect that there will be ongoing violence and warfare no matter what. The question is, why should we be involved? How is it our place to be in there trying to figure out which Afghanis to kill? I just don't see how any of the rationalizations add up. None of them stand up to scrutiny. Because none of the stated reasons make much sense, I assume it's still really just a continuation of the PNAC policy of occupying that part of the world to control the oil and gas. Obama may or may not agree with that agenda, but he doesn't appear to have the political courage to reject it.

As to the stated rationales for continuing the occupation:

Fighting terrorists? Bullshit. They can plan their attacks from anywhere. Are we going to occupy the entire world? It's laughable.

The violence will be worse if we leave? How do we know that? How much of the conflict is being fueled by our presence? And since when has American foreign policy been based on saving the lives of poor people? Doesn't pass the smell test.

Concern for the situation in Pakistan? It seems to me that the war has only made the Pakistan situation worse.

Here's what we do know: This war is costing a lot of fucking money that we don't have. And killing Afghani civilians is creating more terrorists.

And the plus side of continuing the war? Let me know if there's something I'm not getting.

miasmo.com


[ Parent ]
Gotta protect the empire (4.00 / 1)
The question is, why should we be involved?

The US is involved because we forced ourselves on Afghanistan. We are there because we chose to be there. Oh, not you and I, of course - its not like we put it on the ballot, or even had much public debate about it.

As for why the alleged leaders of our nation decided to take Afghanistan, that's a whole different question. I think it has been pretty well demonstrated that the rationales given by said leaders make little sense. Even when spoken by an erudite president that oozes confidence rather than a blue blooded faux hick from Crawford, the words are thin gruel, they are not sufficient.

If one starts to think strategically and from the perspective of an empire trying to exert military control in a restive region, one might make some headway in understanding the motives. Afghanistan is the eastern edge of our empire and building bases there extends our border almost to China. Plus, by maintaining US military presence in Afghanistan provides an eastern flank to match that to the west of Iran. We almost have Iran, along with their oil and nuclear facilities, surrounded. As long as a President Obama doesn't do anything rash - like withdrawing US forces and dismantling the bases - the situation can simmer along until the next right winger gets hold of the military and pushes the empire forward (or diddles around while their staff does it). That's pretty much how Clinton dealt with Iraq after Bush I left it to him. He lobbed a few cruise missiles; basically stirred the pot on the back-burner until Bush II and the Neo-con junta took over. It worked once, why not again?

Don't think I support what I wrote in the last paragraph. I don't. Just saying what I see. But, as much as I appreciate folks like Paul poking holes in the neo-con/conservative "arguments" for continued military action for no apparent reason, I think we also have to take a few moments to see if we can find evidence of the ACTUAL strategies behind the actions, once we have debunked those given in public.



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
The communists impose austerity on their people (4.00 / 1)
If the conclusion of history is that austerity leads to national power in the long run, it works against generosity by the state towards the populace everywhere.

Along the same lines, China has shown an approach to dealing with overpopulation. It may also foreshadow a global approach.

If China were to best the US militarily, or park 10 million soldiers in the fossil fuel exporting regions to their west, it would have the same effect on the global zeitgeist as the victory of the Greeks at Gaugamela, or  the US victory in WW2.

I.e. every city of any stature has an Academy and a McDonald's.

It's doubtful liberalism would survive such an encounter.


Why Is What Bad? (0.00 / 0)


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
the rise of china and the stagnancy / decline of the u.s. (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
He was not making a value judgement in this diary (0.00 / 0)
But I will. The fact is that China remains at this point a corrupt dictatorship. You may so the U.S. is, but I do not see the value of replacing the devil you know with a new one. May be you do.  For some reason this reminds me of Animal Farm where the other farm animals thought they were trading for a better system, but what they were really getting was another ruler. The best that I think we can hope for is what I describe is a system of regional powers with spheres of influence in a somewhat globalized economy. However, the rise of China as THE super power would be trading one set of problems for another. It would not be an improvement.  

[ Parent ]
i know paul wasn't making an explicit judgement (4.00 / 2)
but it's a constant in american political conversation, so explicitly pointing out what, specifically, we like about the american elite vs. what, specifically, we like about the idea of a chiense elite (or competing elites or the indian elite or the brazilian elite) is useful.  otherwise, by silence, it risks playing into similar problems.

i don't disagree with a lot of what you say but would just like it flagged that if foreign elites are going to be opposed, it means that progressives HAVE to support social justice in solidarity with people in other countries.  There is a reason that people in poor countries end up supporting economic nationalism and industrialisation even though it hurts people in their countries more than anyone else.  massive poverty, global inequalities, migration, etc., have to be on the progressive agenda at a par (at least!) with concern for what will happen to the standard of living in the united states.


[ Parent ]
As bruhrabbit2 Explains (4.00 / 1)
I wasn't saying it was bad.  That's a whole separate argument, and on that score, I'd certainly endorse what he had to say about it.

My point was simply that China's rise--virtually unnoticed by Versailles while they were all titilated by the "War on Terror"--was precisely what the neocons were supposed to be concerned about, and hence provided the most fundamental refutation of their vision one could possibly imagine.

From my POV, the rise of both China and India was inevitable.  But at the same time, the US had enormous residual power to shape the kind of world in which their power would rise.  Making it a more peaceful, cooperative and law-abiding world would have been a great gift to everyone involved, not least the US, which would have a much better time of things as a regional power in much more secure and harmonious world order.

9/11 was a symptom of how far off we were from working towards that sort of world.  And rather than seeing that (which is not to excuse the terrorists, but not to inflate their importance, either) the neocons forgot the whole point of their argument, and not only fooled everyone else into giving them what they wanted via their "new Pearl Harbor", they fooled themselves into forgetting their own big picture, and instead simply devolved into their underlying sadism, sans any "strategic vision" whatsoever.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
well, yeah, they're hubristic idiots (0.00 / 0)
but we already knew that.  but if the critique stops at 'they're bad at bipartisan imperialism that the u.s. has practiced for generations' that doesn't take us very far.

[ Parent ]
Au Contrare (0.00 / 0)
Their only claim left is that, yeah, we may be total fuckups, but what else are you going to do?

And curiously enough, Obama really doesn't seem to have answer for this.

So pointing out that they've utterly failed even by their own definition does open up discursive space that is presently absent here in the greatest democracy never seen.

And that's really all the far that a one-diary argument needs to take us.

I know this may seem trivially obvious from where you sit, but it's not an argument you will ever sniff, much less hear in the M$M here in the US.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
yeah i guess (0.00 / 0)
the answer is: 'i'm not interested in your questions - your whole framework is f"£ked up."  and then you work on cross border solidarity.

anyway, i think it's pretty clear where obama's loyalties lie.  it's the 'wrong war' not 'peace dividend' analysis. foreign policy is generally bipartisan.  that's my issue with targeting the neocons ONLY.  it's like making arguments against the Republicans but not anti-abortion democrats.

at some point (say 2002) the support for the afghanistan war probably shared by a much larger portion of the population in the u.s. than now, but figuring out to what extent is the real issue, right?  what percentage of the people in the u.s. that actually oppose u.s. domination of the world?  do they even know it happens?  and what percentage would potentially oppose it, given different social isntitutions, movement work, etc.?  

thsoe are the questions that are interesting to me.  alhtough i would personally be screwed by a continued decline by the u.s. and i know not enough about the chinese government and its history to know what might emerge or about geopolitics to know what will be created (multipolar or unipolar or what), i think the main difference between the neocons and the 'responsible' u.s. establishment has been 'nonproductive' or 'productive' domination.  that is a REAL difference, but it's not worth my consent for either.  like i said above - the whole fra"ework is f"£ked up.


[ Parent ]
The American People Aren't Really Into World Domination (0.00 / 0)
That's just the point.

Majority support can be drummed up for short periods, based on trumped up evidence, or well-crafted lies ("Remember the Maine!", The "Gulf of Tonkin" Incident, 9/11, etc.) but it wears off pretty quick, which is why they need to keep spinning out new lies, or vividly recycling old ones, or better yet, just distracting people's attention so they don't get in the way.

In the end, the American people want to be liked more than feared.  It's only about 50% of the self-identified conservatives who feel the other way, plus a handful of others. American elites are another story, but they really have a hard time getting mass support.  They call it "the Vietnam Syndrome," and they are forever celebrating its death.

It's sorta like feminism that way.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
they've never really been asked (0.00 / 0)
because both parties support it and have since at least the cold war, if not all the way back to the beginning of american history.  it's not enough to want to be liked - the question is whether people will accept global equality as a goal even - the recognition that citizenship is a form of discrimination, that it interacts with other kinds too, and that the united states ias and always has been implicated in this.  

i see no indication of that- but i don't discount the possibility.


[ Parent ]
also (0.00 / 0)
the problem of declining american power would pretty much take care of the problem of what the MSM says, because their influence, globally, would decline accordingly.

[ Parent ]
Obama has an answer (4.00 / 1)
he appears to be planning more of the same, but hopes to implement it without all the fucking up.

He'll play the "good emperor" to Bush/Cheney's "bad emperor".

I really dislike the whole "they're just a bunch of foolish fuck-ups" excuse for the Bush League because it opens the space for a "plan" that plots a course to victory by trying to do the same thing, only more competently.

The Bush Doctrine did not fail because it was poorly implemented, although one can make a good case that the Rumsfeldian "lean and mean" delusions were a major problem. The Doctrine failed because it was based on faulty premises, like the US being greeted as liberators for example. I see no evidence that President Obama questions these premises. In fact, his speeches in Cairo and Istanbul clearly demonstrate that he is quite comfortable acting as a de facto emperor. That is, lecturing sovereign nations as to how they should conduct their foreign and domestic policies.



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
There Is No Perfect Argument (4.00 / 1)
You're operating under the false premises that there is some prefect argument out there, which can't be somehow twisted or misrepresented to serve an evil end.  But there isn't any such argument.

My argument here was presented for a very specific purpose--to completely discredit the neocon argument in their own terms--and to take a huge swipe out of the free-marketeers as a side-dish.

The larger purpose of that is to open up space for a much more unconstrained discussion of foreign policy, one that's not dominated by the neocon assumptions.  But this is an argument, not a Swiss Army knife.  It's not supposed to be a tool for all occasions.

However, once it's acknowledged that neoconservatism failed by its own standards, then the charge of doing "neocon-lite" becomes readily available, ever bit as much as the "we can do it better" dodge that you suggest.

And isn't that a much better argument to have than the brain-dead non-argument we seem to be having now?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Absolutely agree (0.00 / 0)
See, I don't think we're arguing. I think we are discussing the topic and thereby delving a bit deeper into the issues and thereby showing how the rationales given by Bush and Obama are not all that different.

So, now that we've come to see that neo-cons fail by their own standards and might agree that said failure is not only because a few of them made mistakes and generally fuck-up, we can put those explanations aside.

If the agenda espoused in public, whether in speeches or on web-pages by the PNAC are too flimsy to explain the reason why the US invaded and occupied Afghanistan and Iraq, then what explanation can we offer? For my part, I look to motives first. I learned my investigative skills from TV detective shows, so I tend to proceed as if I'm studying a crime. Motive, opportunity and means. The trinity of crime. If motives are strong enough and one has enough power, opportunity and means can be created. Concerning the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, I think, we've let the opportunity stand-in for motive. Many will cite the 9/11 attacks as the motive for taking Afghanistan and some even try to extend that motive to Iraq. But, what if 9/11 was the opportunity, instead? That leaves motive wide open. If I can clarify the motives, everything else will fall into place.

Whether you realize it or not, we've been investigating motive.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
they don't just lecture (0.00 / 0)
they strong arm too.  but then when it comes time to write the articles, it's palestinians' fault that they don't have a functioning government or hondurans' fault that they don't have a wealthy economy.

[ Parent ]
speaking truth to power (4.00 / 1)
I think we are tying one hand behind our back by only going half way in speaking truth to power. We're getting bogged down in their trees. Let's take a step back and look at the forest. The larger truth is that they never really gave a shit about China. Bill Kristol and his buddies understood that Republicans do better when there's a big boogie man with which to encourage all of us to shit our pants hard enough to forget how badly we're being screwed by the plutonomy. After the break up of the USSR, they needed a replacement super-villain. They went with China. 9/11 dropped a big golden egg right in their laps and they forgot all about China.

You are really giving these monsters more credit than they deserve when you take them at their word that they actually give a shit about "security."

We'll do much better if we can get people to fully appreciate the even bigger picture.

miasmo.com


[ Parent ]
Well, Why Not "Take Them At Their Word"? (0.00 / 0)
Since I'm only doing that for the sake of argument, in order to remind folks what pathetic failures they are in their own estimation.

I'm not saying they care about security, if nothing else then because their ideas about security are (1) nuts, and (2) bound to make us less secure.  But I am saying that this was their original strategic vision.  This is what they wanted to do, first and foremost, and it's the reason they gave for criticizing all others--particularly Clinton/Gore.

Now, I agree completely with what you said about why they forgot all about China.  But that's an argument that goes to psychological realism about what they're really up to.  And it's all well and good to make that sort ofarguent. What I'm doing is making a different sort of argument, which is complementary, since it speaks to their ultimate justifications.

The reason it's important to make this argument, and not just the one you are making is because it serves to help deligitimze not just the neocons themselves, but the framework of thinking they produced, which the rest of Versailles just can't seem to let go of, as if they were all cats and it was the best catnip ever invented.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I agree. (0.00 / 0)
I think it is useful to make both arguments. And I think one can make both simultaneously in a reinforcing way. "Either they're liars or their nuts. I'll let you decide." "That level of failure and incompetence calls their true goals into question."

By the way, I think the Versailles analogy pretty much explains why they buy that shit. They understand that they are inside the palace because they fall for all that shit. Those who are smart enough to see the nonsense for what it is are left outside looking in. Do you think Scott Ritter gets invited to any Georgetown cocktail parties? That poor guy is a pariah because he committed the sin of being right. Being a fly in the ointment of the military-industrial complex is never a good career move.

miasmo.com


[ Parent ]
Again, regarding Versailles: (0.00 / 0)
I think this observational gem from Matt Taibbi explains a lot:
Your average political reporter is a spineless dweeb who went to all the best schools and made it to that privileged seat inside the campaign-trail ropeline by being keenly sensitive to the editorial wishes of his social and professional superiors.


miasmo.com

[ Parent ]
Paul Kennedy (4.00 / 4)
Paul Kennedy's wonderful book, The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers (1987), made a similar case for Japan.  Japan was growing much faster than the United States and from 1950 through the mid 1980s seemed like an unstoppable growth collosssus.  

Japan's growth stopped pretty much as Paul shows on the charts.  What this says is that it may be easier to grow from a non-contender to a world power than it is to become the dominant world power.

But if a similar scenario takes place, the best long term prospect would be to be one of a number of great powers rather than being the great power.

Kennedy certainly makes the point convincingly that spending too much on the military effects the long term growth and health of a great power.  Continuing to spend resources on Iraq and Afghanistan while the economy flounders and going deeper into Afghanistan as an economic and social policy is suicidal.

What does a progressive policy in the region look like?  Quick exits and certainly no buildups or continuing presence.  Working with coalitions and using them to help pay the costs and share the troop needs.  Sort of like Gulf War I under Bush I or Bosnia under Bill Clinton.  


I agree with the decline of the Western power (4.00 / 2)
but I disagree with the rise of China as THE sphere of influence. I think what we are seeing is what my teacher said he thought the world in this century would look like. Not fully global, but instead regional. The rise of spheres of influence- China in Asia, America in this part of the world, Europe together as one power. Each will be very powerful, but none great enough to over come the other due to the internal problems of each. I just talked to a friend a few days ago about a business idea that I had for China, and , he made it very clear the nightmare that I would have over there, the lack of proper accounting, the corruption, etc. This is not to take away from China's GDP, but it covers up a lot of screwed up processes. Europe to faces its problem. What we will have is a declined super power in the US due to conservative blunders, but no one will able to fully take advantage of it. Even the language issue is uniquely a problem for the Chinese.  

This Well Could Be (0.00 / 0)
And it probably would be the best likely outcome.

But of course, it would have been much more likely had the US had leadership wise enough to see that as a good outcome and work toward it intentionally.  Instead, we got reckless leadership that wanted to dominate China, and instead greatly weakened the US--even to the point that China's sphere of influence is threatening to include parts of Latin America as well as Africa.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The sphere of influence thesis (0.00 / 0)
a) In Latin America, you will see the rise of regional economic powers like Brazil because they are much more adept at changing their economy (diversifying their energy supply and other aspects of their countries so they are much less impacted by economic shocks) than we are. But, I am uncertain about how far they can grow, and how far China will influence them.

b) African countries are a cipher to me. African countries will probably return to their approach during the period where they played the major powers against each other like in the Soviet era, but I do not forsee any regional power growing there.

Maybe I am wrong, but they don't seem like they have their shit together. The same goes for the Middle East. Right now they are important because of oil, but what happens in a world where oil is increasingly less important as the energy source shifts over the coming decades to green technology and alternative energy supplies? The income inequality of the region is staggering. Unlike Brazil, for example, are they even growing a viable middle class or just concentrations of wealth in the hands of a very few?  I don't know enough to say for sure what will happen, but the overall picture does not look bright for that region in the next 50 years. I include Israel in that thesis.  


[ Parent ]
South Africa is a possible (4.00 / 3)
South Africa is the only fully-industrialised sub-Saharan African state and it has fewer infrastructure problems than most of the rest of the continent. If Zuma and his faction of the ANC manage to democratise power, spreading it beyond the post-apartheid elite and maybe engaging in some degree of land reform, that could set the groundwork for a functioning middle class to spur economic growth.

On the other hand, if he just redistributes power to his own allies in the post-apartheid elite or if he does a Mugabe on land reform, South Africa is going nowhere. And right now, the signs are mixed.

Other possibilities are Nigeria (pros: huge amounts of oil, vast population; cons: ethnic and religious divides, endemic corruption, poor education and infrastructure), Kenya and Uganda (pros: customs union with fellow East African nations, relatively good infrastructure for Africa, favourable strategic location, oil reserves around Lake Victoria, forward looking; cons: ethnic tensions, unstable neighbours, lack of a strong industrial base) and Angola (pros: oil and diamonds, successful democracy by African standards; cons: very little infrastructure, too reliant on oil, pretty much no industrial sector).

That said, if we are going to see an African superpower, it's likely to be made by union between several of the currently existing states. Certainly the AU is keener than the EU on becoming a superstate.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
Intriguing. (4.00 / 2)
Especially given what I've read elsewhere about the possibility of global warming shutting down the gulf stream, causing the rain that currently falls on Europe to land on North Africa instead.

The future could be very, very different from how we currently imagine it.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
I hadn't heard that (0.00 / 0)
My understanding was that most of the models predicted a slight temperature dip for Europe and more unstable weather, but little in the way of big change.

Africa, on the other hand, is likely to see huge rises in temperature and concomitant decreases in crop yields and water supply. That's one of the main challenges facing South Africa, as the Kalahari might easily expand, especially if land reform gets unruly and not enough land is left fallow.

On the flip side, climate change would be bad for Nigeria's living standards, but it might actually induce some favourable political realignment for its long-term stability and development. This is because desertification would affect northern Nigeria but not the south, and hence Hausa/Muslim exclusion of southern/Christian ethnic groups from power might have to be jettisioned.

Of course, 'might' is the operative word there. It could just be Biafra round two, but with added famines.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
Sick conventional "wisdom" indeed (4.00 / 3)
It's important to fully expose the depth of these failures, because far from being discredited by their failures, these three fantasy policy frameworks are not just still intact, and still considered legitimate, they are still dominant, still the default condition, still constitute the framework of background assumptions against which specific actions or proposals are judged...

It's always been a dodgy situation, but now, post-9/11, more than ever it's high treason for any "serious" pundit or politician to begin a line of analysis from a standpoint other than whatever the United States does is absolutely for the Greater Good of its citizens and by extension for all humanity. Anyone not towing that posture is immediately marginalized as a wackadoodle at best.

Edit note: Paul, as of my writing of this, it appears you have the Amy Goodman part of the post accidentally duplicated inside that block quote.


media (4.00 / 2)
Just as example, don't we all (majority anyway) believe that the military is NOT the best way to deal with terrorists? And that Bill Clinton got the job done better useing law inforcement?

Liberal thought and action does produce better outcomes, from the peoples point of view, it's just shut out of the corporate media by the self interested greedy rich conservatives who control it.

I don't believe our biggest problem is invisioning better policy, as much as communicating it to the general population. It seems, our lack of venue allowes the continued spewing of the failed conservative ideaolagy to mislead low information voters, still.

The old Nazi propaganda methods (more refined) are used on the American public daily and most don't find true information on many subjects.

Until this changes, how can any liberal narative replace any conservative one, however foul they are?

Government by organized money is no better than government by organized mob..... FDR


What was the goal? (0.00 / 0)
When you write this:
Conservatism as an ideology has failed as utterly and completely as Soviet Communism.

My gut reaction is to agree. But then doubtful shadows gather and soon I can't ignore them.

So, I ask, with complete candor, are the goals of a conservative idealog the same same the goals of a progressive, or even the same as those national interests that are indoctrinated early on? What if the goal is not a democratically-run nation where fairness and justice are important concerns? What is the goal is the kind of society we have today, one run by the wealthy for the wealthy and at the expense of every one else?

Failure is defined in terms of the extent to which one accomplishes goals, so understanding goals is critical to defining failure. For example, Dick Cheney has been a strong advocate of expanding executive powers for his entire political career (as far as I can tell) and for moving US military forces into the middle east and central asia on a permanent basis. From those narrow perspectives, the 8 years of Bush/Cheney have been somewhat successful, no? It is certainly a "success" that I see as a long-term "failure" in terms of the goals I have for my nation, but what if the folks that run my nation don't share my goals?



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


I Never Said The Conservative Goal Was Sweetness & LIght (0.00 / 0)
I agree with the general thrust of what you're saying here, but I never said that conservatism is about the same goals that we have.

Furthermore, the whole point of culling all those quotes from "Rebuilding America's Defenses" was to underscore that PNAC's primary concern was not the Middle East--it was maintaining America's global dominance (Project for a New American Century, remember?)--and that China was seen as the primary threat to be contained.

So, yes, of course, Cheney succeeded at some of what he was trying to do. So did Hitler, for that matter. But on the big picture level, Cheney & the rest of the neocons failed as soundly as Hitler did.  No thousand year reich, no "New American Century."  Instead, a new multipolar world--exactly what they were trying to prevent, if not destroy.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I like to hear how the Right failed (4.00 / 2)
from the perspective of the Right.

So thanks for answering:

no "New American Century."  Instead, a new multipolar world--exactly what they were trying to prevent, if not destroy.

This is a way to confront conservatives. By showing them how Bush/Cheney failed on their own terms. Demonstrating to neo-cons how Bush/Cheney failed on the bases of democracy and justice is kinda like proving that the New York Yankees have never won a Super Bowl. On the surface it is true and if the person you are talking doesn't want to reveal that the Yankees are playing a different game, they will engage your "argument" with zeal because it helps to keep the real game hidden.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
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