Afghanistan: Obama vs. Martin Luther King

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 08:00


It's my belief that it's no longer in doubt: Barack Obama is not a progressive, even a moderate or cautious one.  On virtually every issue imaginable, we've seen nearly a year of bending over backwards to mollify conservative and reactionary forces-with a singular lack of success-while repeatedly rebuffing or attacking progressives, even when all they are doing is trying to support his agenda,

Behind all the various different examples one could point to, I believe that there's a common thread of underlying continuity and accommodation with the Reagan/Bush/Gingrich/Bush era ideology, rather than fundamental change.  Put simply, as revealed during the campaign, at a fundamental level Barack Obama believes that Reagan's criticism of the New Deal is true.  Which is why he is aligned with conservadems who want to gut Social Security and Medicare.  He also believes that Reagan's style of blind, unquestioning, authoritarian patriotism is not just legitimate, but superior to the progressive, democratic-republican alternative that is actually founded on living out the political philosophy on which our nation was founded.

All that is quite a mouthful, but what it comes down to is that Obama does not believe in the critical/prophetic patriotism professed by Martin Luther King, and carried on, however imperfectly, by his own long-time minister Reverend Jeremiah Wright.  The incidents used to drive a wedge between the two were actually superficial to their underlying differences. Obama is, above all, a symbol of black assimilation.  After centuries of always being on the bottom, trampled underfoot by any recent arrival, with Obama's ascension to the Oval Office, black America could finally say it had arrived , it had been integrated into America's polity at the highest level.



    On The Flip: Martin Luther King had never been an apostle of mere integration...
Paul Rosenberg :: Afghanistan: Obama vs. Martin Luther King
But Martin Luther King had never been an apostle of mere integration, of bringing blacks into the mainstream of sick society that had rejected them brutally, thoughtlessly and without compassion since the day of their first appearance. When he co-founded the the Southern Christian Leadeship Conference, it was not under the motto of integration of blacks into white America, but of transformation of all America-"To save the soul of America."  Indeed, in his prophetic speech, "Beyond Vietnam-A Time To Break Silence", King explained:

For those who ask the question, "Aren't you a civil rights leader?" and thereby mean to exclude me from the movement for peace, I have this further answer. In 1957 when a group of us formed the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, we chose as our motto: "To save the soul of America." We were convinced that we could not limit our vision to certain rights for black people, but instead affirmed the conviction that America would never be free or saved from itself until the descendants of its slaves were loosed completely from the shackles they still wear. In a way we were agreeing with Langston Hughes, that black bard of Harlem, who had written earlier:
    O, yes,
    I say it plain,
    America never was America to me,
    And yet I swear this oath --
    America will be!

Now, it should be incandescently clear that no one who has any concern for the integrity and life of America today can ignore the present war. If America's soul becomes totally poisoned, part of the autopsy must read: Vietnam. It can never be saved so long as it destroys the deepest hopes of men the world over. So it is that those of us who are yet determined that America will be are led down the path of protest and dissent, working for the health of our land.

One can certainly understand why a presidential candidate might not want to lead with such a radical perspective.  But Obama has done much, much more than not lead with this perspective, he has actively repudiated it--as he did in his speech on race during the campaign, when he misrepresented Reverend Wright as not seeing the progress America had made, simply because he continued to point out the progress not yet made. That fact that Obama sees this difference in emphasis in either/or terms puts him squarely on the side of conservatives since time immemorial who have always misrepresented progressives in like manner, portraying any objection to present circumstances as "negative," even "nihilistic," "anti-social," "unpatriotic," even "irreligious."

When Obama ran for President he clearly stated that he was not against all wars--just dumb ones.  But as examples of wars he was not against he chose WWII and the Civil War, examples that long-time pacifist Albert Einstein could agree with, along with most of those who joined with Martin Luther King. (Though not, one should note, Bayard Rustin.)  Both WWII and the Civil War were largely fought over issues of fundamental human rights, and so presented almost unique circumstances. Thus, when Obama cited them, he set off no alarm bells for progressives. Likewise, when he made noises about Afghanistan, they were readily explained away--he needed to "talk tough," or it was simply a rhetorical trope, a way of criticizing the Iraq War without seeming in full retreat.

But the truth is, there is really very of Martin Luther King in Barack Obama.  And his forthcoming announcement of escalating the war in Afghanistan is yet another way in which he makes that "perfectly clear," as one of America's greatest war criminals liked to say.  Now that he has chosen his very own Vietnam, will the true heir of Dr.Martin Luther King please stand up?


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Tell you the truth, I've been thinking late Hoover administration (4.00 / 1)
Herbert Hoover was a good man, and a devoted public servant, but my impression (I'm no scholar of his administration) was that toward the end of his Presidency, he had attempted to move quite a bit beyond his previous attempts at urging public-private partnerships and corporate good will and voluntary aid efforts in the Great Depression, and launched (rather, agreed to launch given the constantly available advice of policy planning experts and think tanks funded by liberal reformist capitalist interests such as the Rockefellers) programs which would basically form the root of the New Deal.  He was finally willing to act, and act more than he preferred before, yet his actions were simply inadequate to the task at hand.  It got to the point that FDR's expansion and deepening of the New Deal programs largely launched by Hoover -- well, at some stage, a quantitative increase really is a qualitative increase.  I get the feeling that he sort of would rather do the 'right' thing domestically (i.e., the better, saner policies many of us would prefer), but actually doing so would make him look like the kind of liberal or extremist he fears being portrayed as, so, pffft, whatever.

I've got one tiny, tiny hope on the Afghanistan policy, but I admit it's the more improbable result -- that maybe, maybe, whether via planning now or not, this Afghan "SURGE" might lead to the ability to point to several bullshit accomplishments which would then justify a following decision to begin removing troops.  On the other hand, this is also what I expected of the Iraq "SURGE", and it hasn't really happened yet.  Maybe a bit.


That's essentially correct (4.00 / 3)
Hoover was a moderate Republican, a compromise between the hardline right-wingers of the Harding-Coolidge sort and the remaining Progressives that hadn't bolted the party in 1912 or the following years.

Obama is similar, in a way - moderate Democrat, compromise between the hardline DLC right-wingers and the progressives. As it turned out, Obama has out-DLC'd the DLC, and proven to be Wall Street's man in the White House.

Unfortunately for us, the comparison stops in 1932. Hoover couldn't hold back the social democratic tide that brought FDR to power. Obama, being from a different party, may hang on in 2012. If he doesn't, we're looking at a wacko right-wing administration taking office in 2013, just as the economy starts to recover.

And that means real change won't come until 2021.


[ Parent ]
When I Think "Late Hoover Administration" I Think "Bonus March Massacre" (0.00 / 0)
Well, "massacre" may be a bit much, since only a few were actually killed.  But still.  Not exactly a turn away from the hard line.

There was continuity, however.  FDR didn't want to pay them early, either.  Offered them federal jobs, instead.  A lot of them went to work building the Overseas Highway in the Florida Keys, then got killed by a hurricane. Only after that did survivors get their pensions... over FDR's veto.

So, there's your continuity for you.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Yes, I could have predicted the comparison (0.00 / 0)
Fine.  I didn't say exactly parallel.  Yes, I suppose any failure to have mention the Bonus March would have gone corrected.  So, yes.  The times are not equivalent.  Obama is not Hoover.  This is not the 1930s.  But it was Hoover's late policies on which much of the New Deal was founded, and repression of labor never stopped, not with Hoover, not under FDR.  The violent repression of the 1934 general strike in the South -- not a good time to launch one anyway, given the weakness of the strategy of blocking production when existing stock was unsold -- took place under FDR's nose as well.

[ Parent ]
Not True (4.00 / 1)
The New Deal was founded on FDR's own policies as Governor of New York. (Common soul: Frances Perkins.)

This Hooverite revisionism is really odious.

Yes, he was significantly different from Coolidge.  But he was not FDR in embryionic form.

They don't call it "the Hoover Institute" for nothing.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I doubt it (4.00 / 2)
I've got one tiny, tiny hope on the Afghanistan policy, but I admit it's the more improbable result -- that maybe, maybe, whether via planning now or not, this Afghan "SURGE" might lead to the ability to point to several bullshit accomplishments which would then justify a following decision to begin removing troops.

That sounds like more 11-dimensional chess.

If Obama were really looking for a pretext to say the situation has changed and that escalation, indeed continuing the war at all, is no longer viable, he had it ready at hand with the manifest fraudulence of the election, and the obvious fact that the Karzai regime will never have a shred of legitimacy.

America's own COIN manual, written by Petraeus himself, McChrystal's own bible, says you can't accomplish anything without a legitimate government partner. That's it. Game over. Anyone advocating in good faith has to say that by America's own doctrines the war is no longer possible, and there's nothing left to do but get out.

That would provide all the rationale a president needed right there.

So clearly Obama, and of course these "generals", are not making decisions in good faith. They want war, permanent war, for its own sake.

They care only about the credibility of Al Qaida, not of Karzai.

http://attempter.wordpress.com


[ Parent ]
Spot On! (4.00 / 1)
In fact, one could take this as a textbook demonstration that Obama isn't actually looking for a way out at all.

Much less that he doesn't believe in "dumb wars."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
follow the money (4.00 / 4)
Above all else, Barack Obama is a member in good standing of America's ruling class. The "liberal" rendition, as it were.

But not in the simplistic Marxist sense of "the class struggle". That was more a manifestation of the industrial revolution. Capitalism has evolved light years beyond that.

Indeed, nominating something as "the ruling class" does not mean that once a month...literally...the folks from The Mainstrem Media [and their Wall Street advertisers] sit down with relevant committee chairmen in Congress, Obama's economic team in the White House, the K Street lobbyists and Henry Kissinger's "colleagues" from Bilderberg to meticulously plan the next month's political and economic agenda. It doesn't work that way. Why? Because it doesn't have to. Besides, even within these corporate concoctions of wealth and power, there are considerable conflicts. For example, corporations based here in America may be strongly opposed to government policies that favor companies that shift all or part of their business overseas. And companies that oppose policies seen as favorable to the interests of oil industry do so because the higher the cost of oil the more costly it is in run their own businesses profitably.

That, of course, is where "democracy" comes into play. But some of these conflagrations are titantic because so much money is at stake.

No, America's ruling class does not encompass a bunch of secret meetings where secret conspirators secretly plot and plan to carve up the world in Dr Evil's secret location at Goldman Sachs.

Instead, it is more like this:

From the Bullfrog Films review of the film The American Ruling Class:

The American Ruling Class is one of the most unusual films to be made in America in recent years--both in terms of form and content. The form is a "dramatic-documentary-musical" and the content is our country's most taboo topic: class, power and privilege in our nominally democratic republic.

At bottom the film is a morality tale, the story of two Yale students (played by Harvard men) who seek their opportunities upon graduation. As the renowned essayist, author and longtime Harper's magazine editor Lewis Lapham conducts them through the corridors of power: Pentagon press briefings, the World Economic Forum, philanthropic foundations, Washington law firms, corporations, banks, the Council on Foreign Relations, and New York society dinners--our two representative graduates "one rich and the other not so rich" must struggle with their responsibilities in "a world collaterally damaged by the magic of money and the miracles of science." The real-life luminaries they meet on their journey become characters in a story about power, its responsibilities and abuses.

All the while "the Mighty Wurlitzer" plays on, a reference to the massive propaganda apparatus invented by the CIA's Frank Wisner, here used to signify the nocturnal philosophy of acquisition and imperial hubris which continually calls to the young men, the siren song of careerist myopia that was bred into their bones at school.

As we watch these two young men wend their way through what is only a slight fictionalization of their actual lives and choices, as we meet former Secretaries of State and Defense, directors of the Trilateral Commission and the Council on Foreign Relations, the publisher of The New York Times, Kurt Vonnegut, Howard Zinn, Barbara Ehrenreich, Robert Altman and a host of others, we have to ask along with Mr. Lapham: "To what end the genius of the Wall Street banks and the force of the Pentagon's colossal weapons? Where does America discover the wisdom to play with its wonderful toys?" The possible answers move beyond the empty distinction of party affiliation and into the heart of American Oligarchy itself. By film's end, the young men must decide: Should they seek to rule the world, or to save it?

George:

Obama of course fits quite comfortably into this carefully calibrated circle of "cultured" friends. His administration is bursting at the seams with them. For example, the Bilderberg, CFR, TC folks alone include Hillary Clinton [and Bill of course], Tim Geithner, Larry Summers, Zbigniew Brzezinski, Rahm Emanuel, George Mitchell, Robert Rubin, Paul Volcker, Robert Gates, James Jones, Tom Daschle, Eric Shinseki, Michael Froman, Susan Rice, Jack Reed, EricHolder, Janet Napolitano, Mona Sutphen.

Though some are admitedly just "advisers".

And you can bet there are no "bitter" folks here at all. Not many unemployed folks in the ruling class.

Hey, it is just commonsense to point out that those who own and operate the political and economic instruments that sustain the global economy, are going to want to connect the dots with others like them around the world. They have "shared interests" that evolve from and center around transactions that swell well up into the hundreds of billions of dollars.

So, no, they don't need to schedule a secret rendevous where they can exchange secret handshakes and secret code words with the other secret participants.

If you grasp the manner in which these folks get together to sustain their own interests you begin to get a clearer sense of why a "progressive" agenda hardly ever comes up at all. Well, other than as rhetorical camouflage to dupe the unabashed liberal intellectuals who still believe that ObamaLand and BushWorld are the antithesis of each other.

Though it is true that the neoconservative ruling class disdains these "internationalists". But they are both attavhed at the hip to Wall Street and the military industrial complex.  


I went out to dinner with some of my liberal friends (4.00 / 5)
And they refuse to believe the problem lies with Obama and the Dem Establishment. It's still the obstructionism of the Republicans that keeping the progressive agenda from happening. It's sad and frightening.

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

Isn't this a bit like Bill Cosby vs. Medgar Evers? (0.00 / 0)
I mean, are there really people who make such comparisons, or isn't this some kind of a strawman argument? I mean, ok, during the campaign, maybe some people got carried away, but that's so last year already. Is the topic of this story based on anyone of some importance really saying Obama is like MLK, recently?

It's Connotation, Not Denotation (0.00 / 0)
Did "change we can believe in" ever really denote anything?

"Not so much," Obama Inc will tell you now, if you press too much.

But it connoted out the yin yang.

Same delio here.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I think it's relevant. (4.00 / 2)
On Tuesday we'll be treated to Obama making the case for more war to his anti-war base. According to Politico, we're going to hear about how the killing is "just one part of a much bigger strategy involving diplomatic, multi-national and civilian aid efforts." There will be triggers and benchmarks and deadlines. I'm sure we'll hear about how he agonized and communed with the dead. And so it will be useful to have the words and actions of a true progressive like MLK in mind when considering what I'm sure will be a typically skillful performance.

[ Parent ]
amen, Paul. AMEN to that!! (4.00 / 1)
Well-reasoned, incisive criticism, and thank you for it.

He's gathering his flock, not leading them at all. America will be what it will be for him. Amid the amorality and immorality of governance of special corporate influence, President Obama is absolutely without comapass. (Perhaps he just doesn't understand a SCOTUS that could give us Boumedienne.)  

When he had his chief of staff call Progressive Democrats - who were then attacking Congressional Blue Dog and Senate Conserv-a-Dem Democrats for their stance against health reform - "f**king stupid," he lost me. Driving this debate, he has been alternately ceding compromise against mere vicious nihilism, and understating the moral - and mortal - magnitude of harms done and harm yet-to-be-seen.

President Obama owes his most vehement and virile supporters an apology or an explanation. Voters will not be suckered again. Or, he could simply do the right thing.

Pardoning ex-Gov. Don Siegelman would be a start. That's on him and him alone. He could also send Rahm to run for the Blagojevich Senate seat now occupied by Burris. We could really use "Mr.F**king Stupid" on our side.

They only call it class war when we fight back.


OBAMA IS NO MARTIN LUTER KING, JR. (0.00 / 0)
What took you so long in figuring out that Obama was no Progressive?  I became suspicious when I saw that he had announced Brzezinski was his foreign policy advisor. Then I read Larry Pinkney, from the BlackCommentator.com:


This is a man who has enjoyed the fruits of America at the blood and expense of Black Americans and others, but who has paid virtually no dues.

This is a man whose father had also enjoyed the fruits of university schooling in America but subsequently returned to his native Kenya.

This is a man, who also like his father before him, neither served in a branch of the US military nor in any organization in America opposed to US military adventurism.

This is a man who as a deeply corporate military industrial complex US Presidential candidate, has called for "unilateral" US military actions in other nations. [And why not? After-all, his father, himself, or his wife and children were not and will not be the ones killing and being killed.]


This is a man who has de facto contempt for the past supreme sacrifices made by thousands of activists from so-called "militant" organizations such the Organization of Afro-American Unity (OAAU), the Student National Coordinating Committee (SNCC), the Black Panther Party (BPP), Students For A Democratic Society (SDS), the American Indian Movement (AIM), the Revolutionary Action Movement (RAM), etc.

This is a man who is silent about the need for reparations for Black American descendants of slaves and the genocide of the indigenous so-called "Indian" peoples on this continent. He is the consummate opportunist who, in reality, cares nothing about the horrors inflicted upon Black, Brown, and Red peoples in this nation, and has repeatedly signaled that he plans to inflict even more "unilateral" military horrors upon various nations and peoples of the world.

This man, Barack Obama, is but a more articulate, younger, and shinier version of the current and infamous US Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, adorning himself dangerously and abundantly in superficiality and double-speak.


I'm Not Talking About MY Views Here (4.00 / 1)
After all, I first wrote a piece contrasting Obama & MLK before the primaries, in late 2007, "Martin Luther King and The Moral Imperative For Polarization".

I also joined David in criticizing Nate Silver's lame-ass claim that Obama was a progressive, "Nate Silver's Curious Categorization of Obama's Policy Agenda"

What I'm writing about here is plausible arguments.  And I no longer think there are any left for Obama as a progressive.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
To be brief... (4.00 / 1)
no shit, Sherlock. Grannie was a banker, Obama was a prep school brat. Forget all the talk about Kenya, he's more at home in the country club. He punched his card and that's it. Everyone gave him a pass after that, they were so ready to reach the Promised Land. Foolish people.

Oh, no, of course $313 billion out of Medicare/-aid can happen magically (0.00 / 0)
by virtue of "efficiencies!" Sure, rural medical care, especially for the aging, may be decimated along the way, but that's just a "commonsense change," no? It's reasonably shocking how little progressive blog coverage I've seen of the cuts integral to his hcr. Thanks for emphasizing this point.

Obama ain't my friend (0.00 / 0)
This I know,
I can't pretend,
Barack Obama ain't my friend.

Let's leave the party,
stop the talking,
set the course, get walking.

Social Democrats,
I'm on my way,
honesty and fair play.



Obama should immediately implement all of President Martin Luther King's policies (0.00 / 0)
after all, he wrote the book on beating the filibuster, whipping conservative senators bought off by lobbyists, extricating America from the previous administration's adventures in militarism, and enacting universal health care reform. I always remember the MLK administration fondly. Such progressive policy wonks! And they did it all in like what? 3 weeks? Obama could never live up to that lofty standard, but who could? President MLK was one of a kind. It's almost like he wasn't really a president at all, but just this voice of reason, free from the constraints of actually having to govern.  



Every Time I Think I Should Read You More Sympathetically (4.00 / 1)
You poke a stick into my eye.

What part of this:

One can certainly understand why a presidential candidate might not want to lead with such a radical perspective.  But Obama has done much, much more than not lead with this perspective, he has actively repudiated it

don't you understand?

I'll stop treating you like a troll, when you stop acting like one.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Well, you poke a stick into my eye too, Paul (0.00 / 0)
except you do it from a position of authority and with a bully pulpit, so it actually hurts far worse. What you don't seem to understand is that there are a lot of people like me out there you could bring into the progressive tent, but you push them away by ridiculing their concerns or doubts, and catering only to those people who already share your point of view, sometimes religiously so.

But since I consider my self part of the open left I'll continue to post here.  


[ Parent ]
You Repeatedly Lie About Me & What I Write (0.00 / 0)
That's a whole different kettle of fish from having "concerns or doubts."  I'm fine with folks having "concerns or doubts." It works for science, it should work for everything else as well.

But that takes us right back to what I was saying above: Whenever I start to think that I should try to treat you like someone with legitimate concerns or doubts, you up and remind me that you only argue in good faith when the refs are all eagle eye on you.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Why do you keep calling me a liar? (0.00 / 0)
Do you realize the contempt you show for intelligence by constantly painting every criticism, every divergent opinion, on these terms? It's like you don't trust people to form their own judgments about whether my criticism is honest or sincere. You have to immediately label it in the most extreme form possible, almost like you're worried someone might see it otherwise.

I admit I might have misrepresented your arguments at times, after all writing and thinking is hard, but lying? I don't get that approach to debating and never will. What I notice is that when I agree with your points, I receive praise, when I disagree, I get called a liar. That's basically your spectrum of responses.


[ Parent ]
I can't speak to the feud you two seem to have going... (4.00 / 2)
But in this particular instance you did ridiculously mischaracterize his position.

And that is a kind of lying.


[ Parent ]
Ha (0.00 / 0)
It's almost like he wasn't really a president at all, but just this voice of reason, free from the constraints of actually having to govern.  

It's not often someone suggests that it was a good thing that politicians held back from enacting the policies supported by MLK.  It is a lonely position - and rightly so.

Also, no one is frustrated that a president operates under constraints - if you think anyone is, you should read much, much more carefully.

I look forward to Obama's book on beating the filibuster, entitled "How to give in without getting anything in return" - it will be a sure page turner.

Support a Pennsylvania Progressive for Governor - Joe Hoeffel


[ Parent ]
I agree with your assessment of Obama (0.00 / 0)
but I think Obama was pretty clear about his support for escalation in Afghanistan during the campaign.  

Here's what Obama's campaign website said about Afghanistan:

Find, Disrupt, and Destroy Al Qaeda: Obama will responsibly end the war in Iraq and focus on the right battlefield in Afghanistan. An Obama Administration will work with other nations to strengthen their capacity to eliminate shared enemies.

And I don't think it was wrong to take that "right battlefield" phrase literally.  The official, Democratic Party line since the Iraq War became an undeniable disaster has been that Iraq was a distraction from the real fight in Afghanistan, where Bush should have sent more troops (and not subcontracted the hunt for Osama to local fighters).

Here's Obama in the WaPo last July, explicitly calling for sending more troops to Afghanistan:

Obama said his job would be to listen to the military but make decisions based on "a range of factors that I have to take into account as a commander in chief."

Those factors, he said, would include "the perceptions of the Iraqi people" and the statements of their leaders, as well as "the deteriorating security situation in Afghanistan," which he called the "central front in the war against terrorism."

McCain's judgments are based on "what he thinks makes the most sense," Obama said. But his own judgments, "in speaking with Afghans and Iraqis, the U.S. military and civilians," he said, led him to conclude that there is a need to "seize this moment to make America more secure" by focusing on "broader challenges."

Chief among them, he said, are the "need to refocus attention on Afghanistan and to go after the Taliban, including putting more troops on the ground, and to put more pressure on Pakistan to deal with the safe havens of terrorists."

Of course, he never said, "I'm going to send 32,000 more Americans over to Afghanistan" during the campaign.  And the only thing keeping a hypothetical President McCain from sending 100,000 Americans there would have been that they were too tied up gathering in Tblisi before the invasion of Russia to bother messing around in Kandahar.

Still, I can't imagine even Nate Silver could have inferred that Obama planned to pull our country out of Afghanistan.  It's just that an endless, expanding occupation of Afghanistan seems to fit within Nate's definition of "progressive".

Among our many, many urgent challenges -- we need to figure out how to break the official, Foreign Policy Consensus in DC, before the consensus breaks all of us.


Obama Said A Lot Of Things (4.00 / 1)
And left a lot of leeway for people to interpret what he really meant.

Many of his core supporters were primarily attracted to him because he didn't vote for invading Iraq, but actively spoke out against it.  Ergo, they interpreted everything else he said through this lens, and concluded that either (a) he was just talking tough to win the election, (b) he was talking tough to win the election, and would follow through if the logic held... but it wouldn't, given that al Qaeda didn't have a strong geographic presence in Afghanistan that could warrant an invasion, or (c) Obama was accurately signally that he really was tough, but the really tough task would not involve troops in Afghanistan, since that would only increase al Qaeda's recruiting pool.  Once he was in office, he would have the time, resources, and bully pulpit to lay out what really needed to be done.

While I was never a core supporter, and didn't necessarily buy into any of that thinking, it did seem reasonable that (a) Obama knew the difference between al Qaeda and the Taliban, and hence (b) his tough talke would continue after his election, but the focus would shift to a more realistic strategy with a greater chance of success.

And, of course, that would have been reasonable.

But, then, it turned out that Obama is not a reasonable man.  He's an ideologue who's far more rigid than even a skeptic like me imagined.

Among our many, many urgent challenges -- we need to figure out how to break the official, Foreign Policy Consensus in DC, before the consensus breaks all of us.

I couldn't agree more.  Which is why I wrote the diary last weekend about how utterly discredited the neocon strategic vision is.  The diary that our friend frank misread as being centrally focused on attacking Obama over Afghanistan.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The Taliban are the recruiting center of Al Quaeda (0.00 / 0)
So, with frighting only Al Quaeda, you're fighting only the symptoms. The real problem is the large supply of violent fundamentalists gathering in Taliban groups. And allowing those to invade Afghanistan again, and to get into power one more time, can only result in desaster sooner or later.

This doesn't say that the current strategy in that theatre is the right one. But it's still preferrable to the alternative. And instead of calling for a misguided withdrawal, people should better press the administration to finally come up with a determined plan, including total withdrawal from Iraq, whree the US really have no business, a strategy for a concerted effort with Pakistan to push the fanatics out of their safe havens, serious talks with Karzai and the tribal leaders about reforms that would make the Afghan nation more acceptable to its citizen, increased efforts to boost the economy there, so that people really have something to lose, and new military tactics that effectively prevent armed gangs to cross the border. And, of course, there also should be a withdrawal plan for the worst case. But only as a safeguard after everything else failed.


[ Parent ]
Wow (0.00 / 0)
The Taliban are the recruiting center of Al Quaeda  
So, with frighting only Al Quaeda, you're fighting only the symptoms. The real problem is the large supply of violent fundamentalists gathering in Taliban groups. And allowing those to invade Afghanistan again, and to get into power one more time, can only result in desaster sooner or later.

So you think the Taliban is a cause and not a symptom?  It is US policy - especially US occupations with their associated massive aerial bombings, etc., that are the cause. Why would the mere existence of the Taliban increase the supply of supporters, as opposed to the continuing US policies that give rise to grievances?

You note a bunch of things the US should be doing, none of which is inconsistent with a withdrawal, all of which would be easier if we weren't killing so many people, and which we are not doing because of people in charge who think that more violence will fix Afghanistan.  

Progressives have no leverage for demanding these things as part of a policy of continued occupation - on the other hand, if we could block escalation and force a move towards withdrawal, the Admin would be forced to look for non-military options - and no doubt would land on many of the ones that you have suggested. (Also, when the government has the support of a foreign occupying power, it leads their opponents to refuse to deal with them and the government to refuse to attempt to get the support of the people, when, as the recent election s showed, it is US support not popular support that keeps the regime in power.)

Occupying a nation and conducting war are not supposed to be the default position, and ending them are not last ditch options.  

Support a Pennsylvania Progressive for Governor - Joe Hoeffel


[ Parent ]
On a higher meta level, the Taliban certainly are just a symptom... (0.00 / 0)
..of increasing Islamist fundamentalism. But it's really to cheap to see the US, and the "occupation", as the main reason for that. Come on, compare this with other fundamentalist movements: Nobody is occupying the US, there is no foreign power hunting insurgents there, no collateral damage, and still there is widesprad christian extremism. Those fanatics always seek and find an enemy, and logic doesn't play a role. If it's not a foreign power, than it's the seculars and maybe a phony "war on christmas". It's simply an illusion to believe fundamentalism will shrink once the US leave that region.

"You note a bunch of things the US should be doing, none of which is inconsistent with a withdrawal"
Huh? How do you want to prevent the Taliban form taking over the country again once the NATO forces are gone? It won't happoen from one day to another, but they managed to do this before, and the weak Karzai government will be no hurdle int he long run. The warlords will be bribed off, or adjust to the changing political landscape, as always. They don't have enough skin in the current administration to makew them fight for the status quo. That's why I said that reforms of the Afhani system are indispensable for a long term securing of the nation.

"Occupying a nation and conducting war are not supposed to be the default position, and ending them are not last ditch options."
I agree, to some degree, but this isn't a general rule that can be apllied without regard to the specifics of each situation. Occupying Afghanistan was unavoidable after 9/11, in order to get rid of the Taliban backed Al Quaeda presence there, or do you want to deny that? Even we Germans backed this move, even though we steadfastly refused to support the Iraq nonsense. Conducting war against the Taliban, who are violently against any new government for the nation, also was unavoidable. And ending that engagement without the government being able to defend the democracy against the attack of the fundamentalists certainly isn't an ethical thing to do. It takes longterm work to establish a new system in that country that has only known war and terror for decades. And the western nations have a responsibility not to throw the towel simply because the going gets tough.

And even though nobody of us here did support the foolish Iraq adventure, with is devastating blood toll, we have to acknoledge that the situation is improving there now. The same could be achieved in Afghanistan. The successes of the Pakistani army against the power centers of the Taliban in the northern provinces are encouraging. If the western nations don't give up now, but adjust their strategy, both military and politicallly, it will be possible to come to a stable situation where a withdrawal can be done without destabilizing the region again. But we ain't there yet.


[ Parent ]
We probably won't convince each other, (0.00 / 0)
although I do hope we will get a better understanding of each other's position...regardless, it's important, so here we go.

I wasn't suggesting that occupation was the sole cause of fundamentalism - I was suggesting that occupation increases the grievances that motivate people to support both the Taliban and Al Qaeda.  It also produces suicide terrorism, as Robert Pape has shown. (By the way, massive aerial bombing doesn't work either.)

I was talking about this:

a strategy for a concerted effort with Pakistan to push the fanatics out of their safe havens, serious talks with Karzai and the tribal leaders about reforms that would make the Afghan nation more acceptable to its citizen, increased efforts to boost the economy there, so that people really have something to lose,

All these things that you advocated can be done regardless of whether the occupation continues. Your response on this does not address my point. As for yours, the Taliban already controls a large part of the country.  But military action will not prevent this - because they are home grown and we are a foreign occupying power.  A nation cannot be built solely on violence, it must be built through politics - and our presence prevents this from happening. And, as I said, the US government will be unlikely to adopt the reforms you suggest as long as it continues to be wedded to a military solution.

Yes, I want to deny that occupying is ever inevitable (that just means we will not attempt to justify it - which is very dangerous) or that is served any purpose what so ever.  Bin Ladin escaped, Al Qaeda survived, and terrorism can be planned from anywhere in the world, as 9-11 itself showed (the notion of denying "safe havens" is based on the idea that terrorism cannot be planned anywhere in the world, which is false.) It was, instead, ham-fisted revenge - I prefer bringing people to justice and preventing terrorism.

There is no democracy for anyone to defend in Afghanistan. Karzai was installed by the US, and the demonstration elections we attempted to put on fell apart.

War and occupation should only be decisions of last resort period - not depending on the situation. The situation might call for those things, but that is another matter.

No one- I repeat, because we have had this conversation before - no one is arguing that we should "throw the towel simply because the going gets tough," only that we should cease doing things which are counterproductive (and, to my mind, immoral.) You seem to be operating under the assumption that only the use of violence is a serious response - whereas I believe that violence usually cannot solve problems.  

This is true:

It takes longterm work to establish a new system in that country that has only known war and terror for decades.

More war and terror - which is what the occupation is - will not solve decades of war and terror.  It's like fighting a flood with water.

As for acknowledging whether the situation is improving in Iraq or Afghanistan, 1) the US has not right to make these decisions for other people, 2) your belief that things are improving is probably based on the claims made by the US government, which is somewhat self-interested, 3) I think history shows that despite occasional ups and downs, the situation in both countries will not fundamentally change when we continued to brutalize the people of these two countries.  

Support a Pennsylvania Progressive for Governor - Joe Hoeffel


[ Parent ]
Just some telegram points in return (0.00 / 0)
"All these things that you advocated can be done regardless of whether the occupation continues."
No. Economical progress slowed down because of insecurity. Political progress is hampered by the Taliban interfering.

"But military action will not prevent this - because they are home grown and we are a foreign occupying power."
Pls explain Iraq. I don't like to admit it, but the surge worked. Maybe only because the insurgency lost power in the long run, but still.

"the notion of denying "safe havens" is based on the idea that terrorism cannot be planned anywhere in the world, which is false"
A leadership that's on the run can't effectively organize. A safe heaven improves their communication, training, recruiting, and increases the danger.

"There is no democracy for anyone to defend in Afghanistan."
I wouldn't say "no democracy". It isn't worse than in, say, Egypt. Or Florida. And can a western style democracy reasonably be expected to work in Afghanistan now, with so many factors still working against it? It takes more time. And some reforms, of course.

"no one is arguing that we should "throw the towel simply because the going gets tough,""
I'm certain I read lots of comments where people argued exactly this. Get out of Afghanistan simply because it's too costly, both in money and US casualties. Don't wanna say this is the majority opinion, but it exists.

"More war and terror - which is what the occupation is - will not solve decades of war and terror."
Hmm, more "war and terror", of course not, correct. But relative peace would help. It depends on if you're able to create oasises of security, and keep the fighting in limited regions, away from the people. And letting a terror regime grab the power certainly wouldn't promote peace, either.


[ Parent ]
There is a lot here, and I don't have the time to devote to all of it (0.00 / 0)
and I don't want to just register dissent, so let me take two points in turn.

If you can point to some comments where people say not only "Get out of Afghanistan simply because it's too costly, both in money and US casualties" but additionally "and we should completely turn our back" or "and spend no money of any kind" or something along those lines, then I will concede that those persons want to "throw in the towel." But merely pointing out that something costs too much is not the same as that, and I submit it is (if it exists) a very minority position.  It's not my position, nor as far as I can tell is it Paul's or any prominent critic of the Afghan War. So if a few people hold this view than my phrasing was wrong but the point still stands - you are offering a false choice on this, and you can't win an argument by arguing against that position, since one can easily support ending the war without holding it, as I do.

I wouldn't say "no democracy". It isn't worse than in, say, Egypt. Or Florida. And can a western style democracy reasonably be expected to work in Afghanistan now, with so many factors still working against it? It takes more time. And some reforms, of course.

Egypt is also, like Afghanistan, not a democracy, but a rather repressive regime that the US government props up without any explanation that can survive the laugh test. This is like if I said that an apple is not a car, and you responded by saying an apple is no less a car than an orange is a car. True, but beside the point.

I don't know if you have a very distorted view of Florida, Afghanistan, or both, but in the recent election in Afghanistan, the guy the US government installed just won because he had no opponent. In Florida, no external force installs people in positions of power and there is, generally speaking, at least some token opposition on the ballot.  

I am not holding our regime to some ideal standard - simply having two choices, no matter how little they differ, is the absolute minimum before an election can be considered even mildly democratic. And aside from that, the Afghans know that the US would depose any president who would not go along with our policies - in fact, members of Congress have openly (although obliquely) discussed this on the floor - which means any election would likely be a sham.


Support a Pennsylvania Progressive for Governor - Joe Hoeffel


[ Parent ]
Come on, more reasonable argumetns, pls. (0.00 / 0)
"If you can point to some comments where people say not only "Get out of Afghanistan simply because it's too costly, both in money and US casualties" but additionally "and we should completely turn our back" or "and spend no money of any kind" or something along those lines, then I will concede that those persons want to "throw in the towel.""

So, you've got no time but expect me to search the internets for those comments? No, David, really not. Not for this minbor point. If you can't even concede that such peopke exist, and that your "phrasing was wrong but the point still stands", we have no rational base for discussion. I certainly won't invest much time and efforts to bring you to such miniscule concessions. That's ridiculous.

"Egypt is also, like Afghanistan, not a democracy"
Go tell that to the Egyptians! They may say it's a horrible democracy, or one that's not working well, but they have a parliament, parties, adn presidential elections. Not necessarily free and fair lections, but everybody has to start somewhere, and at least in 2005, the opposition made huge gains. And let's not forget that the US system isn't perfect, especially in practice, either. To simply call Egypt, and Afghanistan "no democracy" is arrogant and will be received by many in those countries as typical American "holier than thou" attitude. You wanna win hearts and minds that way?


[ Parent ]
I didn't expect you to search (0.00 / 0)
I only suggested that these two things were not the same, and you were treating them as such. But I will concede that such people exist (and that I ought to have done so before) - will you concede that neither I, nor Paul, nor most (not necessarily all) prominent war critics hold that view? Because that was my main point, which still stands. (My point about the phrasing was that I should not have said those people don't exist, because their existence was not my main point and I am in no position to say that they do not - I am unclear why you find that offensive.)

I meant I had no time to do all your comments justice, which was not intended as a slight - quite the opposite. I didn't want to just go down the list and insist that you were wrong.  But feel free to assume the worse of me while you call me names.

Attack me as arrogant all you want as the US government fixes elections and bombs innocent people (along with the guilty). I am confident that my suggesting that Afghans (and Egyptians) deserve better from their government and mine does little damage in comparison to those things. To say those things is no attack on the people of those countries, anymore than to criticize the US government is an attack on the American people.  

"Start" suggests things are getting better - I see little evidence of that in either case (that things went better in 2005 than today would seem to suggest backsliding, not improvement).  I didn't compare either to the US or to "Western" standards (a phrasing many outside the so called West would object to.) I know full well that the US is not perfect, which is why I have repeatedly called for electoral reforms here. Do you think an election with only one candidate can be called democratic? I don't, and I will not concede that point.


Support a Pennsylvania Progressive for Governor - Joe Hoeffel


[ Parent ]
Sure. (0.00 / 0)
"will you concede that neither I, nor Paul, nor most (not necessarily all) prominent war critics hold that view?"

However:
"Do you think an election with only one candidate can be called democratic?"
There was more than one candidate in both Afghanistan 2009 and Egypt 2005. That wasn't the problem...


[ Parent ]
Found some arguing only about the US side of this! (0.00 / 0)
Pls check my latest comments, read those that start with "Helloo, David Kaib". Looks like the egoistical attitude that this is only about US interests, and fuck Afghanistan and Pakistan, is more widespread than you think.

[ Parent ]
Btw, Deja vu? Didn't we have this discussion before? (0.00 / 0)
Do you think we will now be able to reach an agreement, or will it be just another restaging of the same old arguments? Considering this, I don't think this makes much sense...  

[ Parent ]
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