A deeper look at global warming denialist attacks

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Nov 29, 2009 at 18:00


Last weekend, I wrote a multifaceted diary about global warming.  This weekend, with the Copenhagen Climate Summit rapidly approaching, I want to return to the topic of denialism with a little more detail, since the recent wave of denialist attacks reminds us once again that denialism is the big gun in thwarting responsible action.

First and foremost, there's the hack into climate scientists' private emails, peddled to the media and the conservative base as an "exposé".  Of course, as noted last weekend, there was nothing exposed.  But if we don't know by now that facts don't matter, we've learned nothing.  George Marshall--founder and director of projects at the Climate Outreach and Information Network- explained in the Guardian, responding with factual arguments in the media is act of foolishness:

It's like responding to someone calling you a bastard by showing them your birth certificate.

Because the so-called "skeptics" understand this is war, they are much more clear-headed about things. Truth means nothing-the BRAND of truth is quite another matter.  And striking at just the right moment is most important of all.

As noted (also in the Guardian) by Bob Ward-- Policy and Communications Director at the Grantham Research Institute on Climate Change and the Environment at the London School of Economics and Political Science- something of this sort was to be expected:

It is inevitable as we approach the crucial meeting in conference in Copenhagen in December that the sceptics would try some stunt to try to undermine a global agreement on climate change.

Marshall's piece is primarily focused on the ineptitude of the response.  But in order to explain just why it was so inept, he first explains deep background the lay of the land:

The lay public, when presented with confusing data and competing arguments about climate change, deploy the mental shortcut of believing the people they most trust. Trust in the communicator is therefore crucial.

Unfortunately the three main climate change communicators: politicians, journalists and environmental campaigners, are among the least trusted people in society - fighting it out for bottom place in the ranking with lawyers and car salesmen. No one would pay any attention to them at all if they were not drawing on the aquifer of public trust in scientists.

But climate scientists have always misunderstood the dynamic of public belief and trust. They assume that belief will be built on their data and that public trust is merited by their authority. With the exception of a few outstanding communicators, they often make no attempt to speak to deeper values or make an emotional connection with the public - indeed they see that as contrary to their professional independence.

Climate change deniers have always understood this. They use language that is designed to appeal to deeper values (such as freedom, independence, progress). The narrative they tell of being determined (and even persecuted) free-thinkers, standing against the tide of oppressive and self-interested conformity is designed to create an aura of integrity and trustworthiness.

Of course, the social function and position of science has always been a good deal more complicated than advertised.  When "objective" science fits with the dominant elite interests, the "objective" scientists somehow readily get presented to the public as quasi-religious authorities giving their blessings to society's latest crusade, whatever that may be.  The nuclear establishment clearly showed us as much during the Cold War, not least via counter-example in the way that non-conformists such as Einstein, Oppenheimer, and Slizard were excluded from such Olympian status.  Indeed, the Cold War nuclear physics establishment turns out to be directly implicated in global warming denialism, as is discussed by Brazillian anthropologist Myanna Lahsen in her research paper, "Experiences of modernity in the greenhouse: A cultural analysis of a physicist 'trio' supporting the backlash against global warming"(pdf), in which she writes:

Paul Rosenberg :: A deeper look at global warming denialist attacks
Aaron McCright and Dunlap (2003) identify the conservative movement as a central obstacle to US policy proposals concerning human-induced climate change, and examine how a small group of ''dissident'' or ''contrarian'' scientists lent crucial scientific credentials and authority to conservative think tanks. McCright and Dunlap (2000) analyze the discourses structuring the contrarian scientists' counter-claims related to climate change and how conservative think tanks have mobilized these claims to undermine concern about climate change. Carvalho (2007) found that the American skeptics also have featured prominently in the British ''quality press'' in support of a neoliberal, capitalist agenda.

The above-mentioned sociological work on the antienvironmental movement establishes the what and the how dimensions of scientists' engagement with it. What it does not illuminate is why such scientists have chosen to lend their support to this movement: Who are they? Where do they come from? What motivates them? This paper seeks to answer these questions with regards to three influential physicists who joined the backlash, Frederick Seitz, Robert Jastrow, and William Nierenberg (hereafter referred to as ''the trio'').

The trio is a subgroup within the dozen or so high-profile US scientists who have been staunch and public in voicing their criticisms of environmental concern about human induced climate change and associated policy action. The contrarians represent numerous disciplines and vary also in terms of other factors (age, home institutions, status) etc. but about half of them are physicists.7 This study discusses the sociological significance of this strong representation of physicists among the contrarians, but without drawing conclusions about physicists as a whole.

As the paper continues, more and more is revealed about the trio's embeddedness in the nuclear establishment, and the various things that entails. But, of course, one thing it doesn't entail is any particular expertise in climate science...and, indeed, it remains the case that there is no contrarian climate  science in the peer-reviewed scienfitic literature.  Thus, these scientists are being cited in a logically illegtitimate manner, a fallacy known as "appeal to authority":

An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:

  1. Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S.
  2. Person A makes claim C about subject S.
  3. Therefore, C is true.

This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject. More formally, if person A is not qualified to make reliable claims in subject S, then the argument will be fallacious.

This sort of reasoning is fallacious when the person in question is not an expert. In such cases the reasoning is flawed because the fact that an unqualified person makes a claim does not provide any justification for the claim. The claim could be true, but the fact that an unqualified person made the claim does not provide any rational reason to accept the claim as true.

When a person falls prey to this fallacy, they are accepting a claim as true without there being adequate evidence to do so. More specifically, the person is accepting the claim because they erroneously believe that the person making the claim is a legitimate expert and hence that the claim is reasonable to accept. Since people have a tendency to believe authorities (and there are, in fact, good reasons to accept some claims made by authorities) this fallacy is a fairly common one.

The appeal to authority is especially appealing to authoritarians, who prefer to have authorities do their thinking for them--particularly when the authorities  say what they want to hear. When they don't, well... that's when the character assasination and email hacking begin. All this takes us preamturely away from Lahsen's excelelnt article (I promise to write more about it in the future), but not before quoting one more passage.  As she demonstrates, the physics culture they were part of breeds a kind of intellectual arrogance that simply assumes its members possess near omniscience.  Unfortunately, no humans do:

Numerous climate scientists interviewed as part of the author's larger research project associated the Marshall Institute trio with this general style of behavior. Thus, a chemist and climate scientist said:
    Jastrow, Seitz, Nierenberg-the Marshall Institute in general, I know all of these guys. They are all good scientists-they were: they are all retired, and they have a kind of hubris-an arrogance, you know [y] Physicists can answer any question quickly. These [global environmental] problems are sort of trivia that can be handled by a good physicist on a Friday afternoon [over] a beer. That is the attitude they have [...] They downplay the science of any other community. And they are really arrogant.

An IPCC leader-a physicist himself-echoed the above statement:

    [There is a group of physicists among the contrarians who] feel that they are experts [on the climate issue]. There is a long-standing tradition in the physics community that holds that physicists can solve any problem just by thinking about it. There is a group in the US called JASON. These physicists meet down in Southern California, and they were convinced that they could solve any problem. They were convinced they could solve the acid rain problem ntellectually. They didn't care about models and clouds and other detail. They thought they could do it from first principles of physics. And there is some of that left over.

Overhearing the above comments, another IPCC leader and scientist pitched in: ''You see, there are scientists who have been working at the highest levels in science and government, who feel as if they can make statements about any scientific area. But what they have to do first is their homework!''

Unlike the neocons, these scientists are not devoid of expertise--in their own fields.  But their success within their fields leads them to have a neo-con like disdain for the most basic facts of fields they pontificate on without any proven expertise.  However, also like the neocons, they know how to play the part of experts, since they have actually been experts for many decades... just not experts on climate science.

They are thus well-suited to playing the part described above by George Marshall in the Guardian:

Climate change deniers have always understood this. They use language that is designed to appeal to deeper values (such as freedom, independence, progress). The narrative they tell of being determined (and even persecuted) free-thinkers, standing against the tide of oppressive and self-interested conformity is designed to create an aura of integrity and trustworthiness.

Marshall continues:

The recent hacking of the servers of the University of East Anglia can only be understood within this landscape of competing appeals to public trust. The denial industry (and hordes of climate nerds) has trawled through these emails and found sentences which, when removed from context, support their storyline that climate science is being deliberately distorted and exaggerated for a mixed bag of self-interested and politicised ends.

But you could find anything in here. I looked and found lots of references to lunch and fun, 94 to hate, 31 to love. Generally, though, the emails are extremely focused, technical, and, dare I say it, really dull. As noted on realclimate.org, the emails contain "no evidence of any worldwide conspiracy, no mention of George Soros nefariously funding climate research, no grand plan to 'get rid of the MWP', no admission that global warming is a hoax, no evidence of the falsifying of data, and no 'marching orders' from our socialist/communist/vegetarian overlords."

But this is hardly the point. This is an orchestrated smear campaign and does not require balance or context. The speed with which the emails have been cut apart and fed into existing storylines is remarkable. At the very least the UEA email campaign is an application of dirty political tactics to climate change campaigning.

I suspect it goes further than that. The storyline is too clever, the timing on the brink of Copenhagen and the US climate bill too convenient. I wait with interest to find out how these emails were obtained.

We need to understand this smear campaign as reflective of a general worldview--one that is at least partially implicated in the authoritarian worldview described in a previous diary today, "Authoritarianism & Polarization ".  The political theatre of delegitimizing enemy authroities and legitimizing one's own is central to the authoritarian worldview's way of doing politics, because of the crucial role that authorities play for authoritarians.

This is the exact same rationale involved in obfuscating and denying George W. Bush's record of going AWOL from his duties with the Texas Air Nationa Guard, while creating an utter factitious and slanderous attack on John Kerry's actual combat medals.

Indeed, the process is far more widespread than that, as Glenn Greenwald showed in his book, Great American Hypocrites.  It's the way that virtually all conservative culture heroes are created, by acts of massive biographical fabrication.

Same as it ever was.
Same as it ever was.  


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This reminds me of (4.00 / 2)
the Anatole France line regarding the Dreyfus Affair:

If I'm accused of stealing the towers of Notre Dame, all I can do is flee the country.

IOW, they don't care that you're "innocent"; they're just out to get you, period.

You have to fight fire with fire, or lose. That's it.

Back when I used to follow this issue more closely I remember Romm sometimes castigating climate scientists for their generally crappy performance in debates, for this same reason. They thought rationally mustering all the evidence would be sufficient, when climate change is a class war and culture war issue just as much as anything else is.

But it seems that no matter how many times the Enlightenment myth is disproven (it would be my nominee for falsest secular idea ever), we'll never lack for otherwise intelligent people who have great faith in it.

In the early part of this post I wasn't following the nuclear connection at first, since my recollection was that the nuke lobby was playing up the global warming specter for their own benefit, even hiring some erstwhile "enviros" as flacks.

But then I saw that it's really about the hubris of scientism, another pernicious faith, and that the nuclear connection was incidental.

http://attempter.wordpress.com


Nuclear Fallback (0.00 / 0)
They can always say, "Woops, we were wrong.  Well, no problem, nukes can fix it real quick."

In fact, there are some who more or less explicitly take that position--"There's no real problem here that a couple hundred nukes couldn't fix.  So what's the problem?"

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Sadly, nukes don't fix things quickly at all. (0.00 / 0)
The worst thing about nukes is that they're expensive and slow to certify and build. As far as I know, nobody is proposing a plan that would have the sort of nuclear buildout that we need, which would involve opening more than one new reactor every month.

I imagine that the conception to production schedule for a new nuclear plant will be at least ten years. This is an incredible lag, and is the reason why, when we need more megawatts in the 21st century, we're still most likely to reach for a fucking coal plant.

In fact, we live in a country where the largest source of megawatts from NEW plants come from coal, the worst possible source of power.


[ Parent ]
It's maddening. (4.00 / 1)
I wish at this point the real climate experts, if they can't or don't want to do it themselves, would work together to get a team of communications experts on their side who really understand "the dynamic of public belief and trust", and can "use language that is designed to appeal to deeper values such as freedom, independence, progress".*

Hopefully that's already happening. If it's not, what can we do to make it start happening? I mean, according to the real experts, this is truly a matter of life and death, is it not?

Thanks for posting this, Paul.

*Frankly, this strategy needs to be applied to all progressive issues since we face the uphill battle against the corporate media "puke funnel".


We don't have a Carl Sagan to speak out (4.00 / 1)
Well-trained scientists who can speak and be understood by all levels of non-scientists are not easily found these days! Having been married to a biophysicist for 23 years, I know that physicists feel they have the answers to everything...that was certainly my experience.

I've been browsing the Yale School of Forestry and Environmental Studies online source, e360, having been led there in search of a Freeman Dyson interview. Dyson is a contrarian, and not much help here.

However, this piece by Carl Zimmer explains an article in Nature that describes nine planetary boundaries, three of which have already been crossed. It comes with a diagram worthy of OpenLeft. We might raise understanding and comprehension of the situation if we would all circulate this diagram on our communications.


[ Parent ]
This exact thing is happening in Australia RIGHT NOW... (4.00 / 3)
The conservative government in Australia has been very publicly challenging the science behind climate change, and is in the middle of doing a Gingrich/Palin style smear campaign to get rid of their leader because he took an offer to modify the Carbon trading legislation the government was about to enact AHEAD of Copenhagen.

Their leader and his negotiating team made a substantial offer that the progressive labor party accepted, and were ready to move on legislation.

Over the weekend, there has been a weekend of long knives, and they look likely to dump their leader, and move to caveman style politics of lies and deceiving the public just like the Republican Party in the US.

We seem to be in a battle for people having some say in government around the world, and the conservatives are all working the same play book in many western countries.

It sure seems to be easy as the press is helping them dumb down our political discussion using the tactics mentioned. Here in Australia, the immediate past Prime Minister, John Howard, (of being "W" Bush's lapdog fame), seems to have been a behind a major plot to discredit the current leader, and deny the Labor government a bi-partisan approach ahead of Copenhagen. They do not really want to argue the policy, but to smear and stop the legislation through a fear campaign on taxes and costs.

Sad, isn't it how all over the world, the rich and powerful all act to keep the status quo where ever they are in the world


Jeeze Louise! (4.00 / 2)
Australia's just getting massacred by global warming.  I've been following the climate news there all decade closely enough to know that it's far, far worse than anything happening here in the US.  The idea of denialism being politically viable there at the national level seems beyond crazy... it's downright suicidal.

Please do keep us up to date, either here, in quick hits or both.  (Not that we can't read for ourselves, but the personal touch is appreciated.)

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Sorry, Mistake in last Post... (0.00 / 0)
I said Conservative Government, But what I meant was the conservative opposition, til tomorrow ran by current opposition leader Malcolm Turnbull to the government of labor Prime minister Kevin Rudd.

It looks as if they will change leaders tomorrow to try to stop this legislation.

http://www.theage.com.au/natio...


re: legislation (0.00 / 0)
Labor has 32 senators, seven short of a majority in its own right. The five Greens oppose the legislation because they want larger cuts in emissions of greenhouse gases, and the two independent and minor party senators oppose the bills for different reasons.

wow, those guys (the 5 greens) don't play games

the progressive block could use some of that spine...


[ Parent ]
Nice guys finish last (0.00 / 0)
Start out by calling them idiots and liars. Treat those who disagree with them with disdain. Allow reporters to know they are ignorant and uninformed when questioned.

It works for them. How much better it should work when the actual underlying truth is on our side.


Physics Community Changes (0.00 / 0)
This description of the physics community is so at odds with what I've experienced in the past 5 years that I can't help but think that this is a relic from the nuclear era and that only physicists who trained then are infected by it.  Physics is all about models, it's mind-boggling to me that anyone trained in physics today would be disdainful of them.

Well, Not Mere Meteorologists' Models! (0.00 / 0)
Puh-leeze!

Seriously, tho, she quotes other younger physicists as highly critical of them, so, yes, it's definitely very much a Cold War/nuclear era thing.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
also (0.00 / 0)
I think it's hard to fathom how arrogant the really top-level physicists are.

Great post, Paul.

New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


[ Parent ]
85-year old Freeman Dyson on models (0.00 / 0)
I thought I'd find Dyson helpful in explaining the urgency, as I heard him speak on the origin of life on earth and found him clear and straightforward, but he doesn't like clouds, it seems. From the interview of June 4, 2009:

So they say, 'We represent cloudiness by a parameter,' but I call it a fudge factor. So then you have a formula, which tells you if you have so much cloudiness and so much humidity, and so much temperature, and so much pressure, what will be the result... But if you are using it for a different climate, when you have twice as much carbon dioxide, there is no guarantee that that's right. There is no way to test it.


[ Parent ]
what I think he means is (4.00 / 1)
that the climate models are composed of cells the size of states, whereas clouds form on much smaller scales. Also, high thin clouds tend to reflect heat and low fat clouds tend to trap it.

The only way to represent this kind of ambiguity is to just assign it in the model as a "parameter", or fudge factor.

Young Scotty Jenkins, so big and able
Saw his fair colleen stretched by the wall
Tore the left leg from under the table
And smashed all the dishes at Flannigan's Ball


rjt12@.....


[ Parent ]
Not Exactly (4.00 / 2)
The models have to parametize certain factors.  They can't possibly work any other way.  But they keep getting better and better.  The fact that there is uncertainty in how well they will model things as conditions change is certainly true, but it's hardly a source of comfort, since (a) once things have changed that much, we'll already be in deep doo-doo, and (b) they could just as well undershoot how bad things will get as overshoot.

So, in short, you use the best models you've got, work to improve them, and work to improve your understanding of how climate has changed in the past.

This ain't rocket science.

Rocket science is easy compared to this.

But common sense is still a reliable overall guide.  Acting irresponsibly until you're sure you're in trouble is just plain dumb, and you don't need a PhD to know that.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Even rocket science uses models (0.00 / 0)
Especially in this age of CAD. The "easy" part of rocket science is that one can test the models with engineering, i.e. building prototypes. Climate science does not offer this means of model testing, so the results will always be less certain.

True, models (hopefully) get "better and better" but there is no guarantee of such. Regardless, even the "best" model is limited by the quality of the data used to populate it.

Besides, if one could simply rely on "common sense" as a "reliable guide", one would hardly need to take the time to build models. The main strength of the scientific and engineering approach is to stop relying on "common sense" because it is so often incorrect. At one time, common sense told us that the Earth was the center of the solar system (if not the Universe), that the world was flat, and that lightning bolts were thrown my mythical beings.

As I understand it, the whole point of trying to model the effects of climate change is to determine whether of not we are "in trouble" and if so, how much.  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Scientists sometime speak their own language (4.00 / 2)
The word "model" in regard to using mathematics to describe living systems (a climate or a cell) is one word that probablly has different connotations to a guy like Dyson than to non-scientists, especially those that don't read science (or popularized science) journals and articles on a regular basis.

Ditto for "fudge factor". We use that phrase quite often in discussing metabolic models because it is a short hand way of discussing parameters in the equation for which the proper labels are long and obtuse. When that simplified, jargonish language is read or heard by those that are not intimately familiar with the model, confusion results.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
English needs a new word to describe the reaction this sort of thing provokes. (4.00 / 1)
"Frustration" is not nearly strong enough. "Despair" doesn't really capture the torturous aspect of watching in slow motion as our species fucks up what for all we know may be the only home for life in the universe.

Anyway...

To the endless list of things that make global warming a diabolically complex and difficult challenge for humans, you can add this maddening double bind: the authority of climate science depends on its objectivity and rationality; but an appeal to objectivity and rationality probably won't suffice to overcome the denialists and their hefty platforms in the media. Yet, if the global warming Cassandras (Cassandra was right, remember) engage in the same sorts of media strategies as the denialists, they'll be fighting on the denialists' home turf. And why should we think that fighting on that ground will be successful in creating the consensus that is needed to actually do enough to stave off the worst effects of global warming?

The only thing that can save us at this point, I think, is if elites decide that they don't actually want to bequeath a ruined planet to their descendants; that they care more about the future of the world than they do about accumulating short term goods and winning small-bore political battles. Only then will the noise machine of obfuscation and deception about climate change be shut down.

In other words: God help us.


I'm not sure (4.00 / 2)
Yet, if the global warming Cassandras (Cassandra was right, remember) engage in the same sorts of media strategies as the denialists, they'll be fighting on the denialists' home turf. And why should we think that fighting on that ground will be successful in creating the consensus that is needed to actually do enough to stave off the worst effects of global warming?

but here's a few preliminary suggestions for fighting on this turf.

1. Don't be squeamish about being called "alarmist".

2. Don't be squeamish about claiming that renewable energy transformation will save us, including economically, even if we don't know for a fact that it's true. It's certainly a good in itself, a step in the right direction, so sell it for all it's worth.

3. Don't be squeamish about personalizing it and demonizing the deniers as intentionally seeking to make us more vulnerable to weather and climate disasters. Also to terrorism, since climate change is increasingly a national security issue, as the war establishment itself has said in numerous studies.

4. (My personal pet peeve) Regarding extreme weather events, enough with this confounded gratuitous concession that we can't pin particular extreme events on climate change.

Yes, that's scientifically "true", but waaaaaaaaaaaay too subtle for a political knife fight.

So go ahead. Hurricane = global warming. Current drought = global warming. Pest or disease expansion = global warming. And so on.    

http://attempter.wordpress.com


[ Parent ]
I Quite Agree (4.00 / 2)
It's certainly not impossible to fight back, and Russ hits some key ways to do so.

One of the most basic things that needs to be done is big-picture reframing.

For example, from the very beginning uncertainty was used to argue that we shouldn't do anything until we were certain.  The obvious reply should have been, "So if you smell smoke in your house, but you aren't certain there's a fire, you should just ignore it?  Is that your argument?  And if you drive a car, you shouldn't get insurance until you're sure you've had an accident?"

Because that's what they're arguing--that no matter how dire the consequences, we should do nothing until it's certain they will happen.  Well, if everyone believed that about everything, then insurance would never have been invented.  BTW, I interviewed a climate scientist who works a large reinsurance company for a climate change story I wrote just after Katrina.  Insurers aren't down with climate change denial, not one bit.

Another example--which Russ mentions--is extreme weather events.  The obvious way to frame them is simple: "This is what will become normal weather in a few decades or less, given the global warming path we're on."  Katrina, California wildfires, the stories I wrote about them both took that approach.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Obstructionists, not denialists. (0.00 / 0)
Perhaps we should stop referring to them as skeptics or denialists. There are such people, but as a movement, this is simply the pollution lobby's obstructionism.
As noted, truth and facts don't matter to them. I doubt that they care at all whether warming is occurring or what causes it, or have any genuine beliefs about it.  It is just the usual conservative self-interested delaying, blocking, distracting, lying, etc. to protect the status quo that we see with other issues, such as health care.  

Trio all dead (0.00 / 0)
The trio that you listed are, in fact, all dead.  Jastrow was also a supporter of intelligent design.  These are all people whose work was over decades ago.  Mostly, from the Wikipedia articles, by 1980 and often earlier.

If all the supporters fall into that ilk (dead and long since retired or at least non-productive, the denialists have even less going for them than I thought.


Important to destinguish warming deniers from warming shruggers (0.00 / 0)
I know that there are people who deny that there is anthropogenic climate change. I guess I just assume that with time, this sort of denial will be untenable, but by that time, it might be too late.

Much more subtle are the global warming shruggers, who don't deny that the planet is warming, but instead claim that the warming is not that big a deal compared to other social crises. Among the smartest of these shruggers is Bjorn Lomborg, who gets lumped in with the deniers because he does occasionally criticize climate science in ways that are characteristic of deniers - but he's really not denying climate change. He just claims that in a world with limited resources, it is unwise to dedicate those resources to reversing climate change when the same resources could be used to fix much more serious and urgent social and environmental problems.

While I have no sympathy at all for the deniers, I can't help but to think that the shruggers are on to something. In any case, it takes a different and much more subtle argument to defeat the shruggers. Just science won't do it, because shruggers don't deny it.

http://www.ted.com/talks/bjorn_lomborg_sets_global_priorities.html


I can't think how the science doesn't argue against that logic quite (4.00 / 1)
effectively. It's clear from the science that global warming is the greatest social issue of our time, because its impacts would be just so incredibly vast. There's just no way around that much. It's already proving to cost lives in Africa, but I suppose those dirty brown people don't matter to shruggers?

[ Parent ]
You see the logic because you understand and trust science (0.00 / 0)
and the scientific process. Others do not trust science or scientists, so they don't will not go looking for the logical explanation. In fact, if they distrust science and technology enough, the more evidence you roll out, the less likely they are to listen.



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Australia dumps Opposition leader over carbon trading (0.00 / 0)
This morning in Australian, the conservative party, (oddly enough called the Liberal Party), removed their leader, Malcolm Turnbull, and changed to Tony Abbott, over the Carbon Trading Scheme the government was getting ready to pass before the Copenhagen meeting. Abbott won by a single vote, 42 to 41 for Turnbull. Their party is split right down the middle, and it probably means that the Labor party here will easily win the next election, and it also means the government of the day has a trigger to call an early election and cram their legislation through.

Australian's voted strongly for current prime Minister Rudd, based upon action on Climate change. The majority of the population was for that, but the smear and fear campaign has many people confused.

http://www.theage.com.au/natio...


re: legislation (0.00 / 0)
the previous link said:

Labor has 32 senators, seven short of a majority in its own right. The five Greens oppose the legislation because they want larger cuts in emissions of greenhouse gases, and the two independent and minor party senators oppose the bills for different reasons.

will the new legislation be the same, better, worse?

I'm trying to find the result of the green's strategy

at least somethink will pass now?


[ Parent ]
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