How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a president's political image?

by: David Sirota

Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 09:15


I don't like to try to read the minds of politicians - mostly because with the automatons we have in office today, if you actually could read their minds, my guess is you'd find almost nothing actually going on in there. However, there are ways to ferret out the actual motives of politicians - and in particular, on the issue of the Afghanistan War.

Consider this fact that has been reported almost nowhere other than McClatchy (incidentally, one of the only news organizations that didn't propagandistically beat the drum for the Iraq War):

There are 68,000 U.S. troops and 42,000 from other countries in Afghanistan. The U.S. Army's recently revised counterinsurgency manual estimates that an all-out counterinsurgency campaign in a country with Afghanistan's population would require about 600,000 troops. (emphasis added)

Yes, to run the kind of counterinsurgency operation that President Obama said he's aiming for in his West Point speech this week, the U.S. Army says there needs to be 600,000 troops in Afghanistan. President Obama obviously knows this - and yet his escalation means we'll only* have 100,000 troops there (And even if you insist that the 600,000 number is for an "all-out" counterinsurgency campaign and further insist Obama is not promising an "all-out" counterinsurgency campaign, he's still not proposing even a quarter of the 600,000 number - for self-identified goals that would clearly require nearly and all-out effort).

Therefore, we know one of two three things is going on. Either:

1) President Obama believes we can conduct the kind of counterinsurgency he says we need with one sixth of the troop levels his counterinsurgency experts say are necessary, or

2) President Obama is escalating the war with no intention of halting an escalation, but instead an intention of continuing to escalate to much higher troop levels irrespective of his vague promise to try to bring troops home in 2011, or

3) President Obama is risking the lives of 100,000 troops in order to prevent being labeled "weak" - but with no intention of actually waging the counterinsurgency strategy he publicly says is necessary.

David Sirota :: How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a president's political image?
I'm going to discount possibility number one right off the bat. President Obama is a smart person - he's not an idiot like George W. Bush. So I'm not going to believe he sincerely believes he knows more about the numbers needed to run a counterinsurgency than the U.S. Army experts who he relies on to make those estimates. Put another way, because of Obama's intellect, we can assume he knows 100,000 troops will not be enough to accomplish the goals he said in his speech he's committed to. Additionally, we know that he's probably not serious even about eventually Afghan-izing the security force in country (like Nixon said he would Vietnam-ize that war) because the Wall Street Journal now reports the president "has soured on a call from its top commander to double the size of the Afghan police and army."

For argument's sake, let's rule out possibility number two as well, if only to avoid speculation on whether Obama is or is not an honest person. There's simply no way to know whether he's lying to us about his intention to start a drawdown in 2011 until that date arrives. So speculating on that is kinda pointless. Let's just take him at his word that that is his intention.

It is possibility number three that is the most interesting - and most likely - if current political realities and history are considered.

Obama knows that politically, he cannot come out and demand the deployments that would be required to move 600,000 troops into Afghanistan (if we even had the troop strength to muster such a force). A request like that would be laughed at by the Congress and intensely opposed by a public that already intensely opposes an increase of 30,000 troops (and let me be clear: I'd certainly oppose that for all of the same well-grounded economic and military reasons that make such a massive deployment politically impossible).

But Obama also seems very concerned about how a genuine withdrawal might allow Republicans and the Washington Establishment to portray him as "weak" - a term that is defined by that Establishment as anything short of unbridled militarism. It is the same concern Lyndon Johnson privately voiced over and over and over again to his aides during the lead-up to the Vietnam War - the only difference is that Obama's aides are rather open about how the Afghanistan escalation is, in part, about preserving an image of "strength" for their boss. Notice the White House's carefully calibrated top-line message on the day of the announcement:

"There isn't anybody with a straight face that can question the resolve of this commander-in-chief to put the appropriate resources on what he believes was an urgent threat to our national security," said White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs. "Again, I don't know anybody who can make that logical argument." (emphasis added)

That's what this is really all about - not actually confronting an alleged "urgent threat to our national security" (because Obama's Army experts say that would take 600,000 troops, not 100,000 troops), but merely generating an image that projects the "resolve of this commander-in-chief."

By putting in 30,000 more troops, Obama can request a buildup that's (barely) politically palatable in Congress, and fulfills the false concept of "strength" (ie. "strength" = militarism) artificially manufactured by the Washington media/political establishment - even though he knows that 30,000 troop escalation is not enough to do what his own military experts say is necessary to achieve the goals he says he wants achieved.

In an interview with the same Washington elite who manufacture this bullshit concept of "strength" and "weakness," Obama insists "Not only is [my decision] not popular, but it's least popular in my own party" and then pats himself on the back for supposedly having courage by saying popularity is "not how I make decisions."

It's a nice little self-aggrandizing pirouette - one that obscures the fact that, in fact, popularity is exactly how he's trying to make decisions. He's trying to find a way to be very popular - ie. considered very "strong" and manly - among Washington insiders (thus the escalation), while simultaneously limiting the unpopularity of his actions among the general public (thus an escalation far short of what his own military experts say is necessary). And because of that unbridled political narcissism - because of that apparent desire to be loved not just by his constituents (ie. the public) but also (and more importantly to Obama) by the Washington power class - troops lives are being put on the line unnecessarily.

And so it's fair to ask two simple questions. Is it really worth putting 100,000 Americans at risk for the next few years exclusively to protect the political image of a president? More specifically, is it worth putting those 100,000 American lives on the line so that President Obama can fulfill the media and political establishment's artificial definition of "strength"?

I certainly don't think so, and I think it's an almost unprecedented level of immorality.

When John Kerry famously asked about Vietnam, "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?" he was right to suggest that Vietnam was, in part, an honest Cold War "mistake" (although as the Johnson tapes also show, it was also, in part, a deliberately craven effort to protect a president's "strong" credentials). Afghanistan is different - we've been there 8 years, so the awful consequences of a new escalation (and continued occupation) that's nonetheless not truly designed to achieve goals isn't some innocent "mistake." It's almost entirely deliberate. And so the question for President Obama on Afghanistan is simply "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for your political image?"

ADDENDUM: For those interested in more, I strongly suggest reading these pieces by Nick Kristof, George Will and Stephen Spain - voices that span the ideological spectrum.

* NOTE: I use only not to suggest that's not a lot, only to suggest it's far less than the 600,000 the Army says it needs.


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I Cried (4.00 / 7)
Me, having returned to school to improve my industrial skill, am in a Vo-Tec class.  Inquiring of one classmate's graduation plans, he told me of going to basic then being stationed in Afghanistan.  I felt a very cold rush over me.  Here was Viet-Nam all over agin.  I almost cried in his face.  I did when I got to the car.  

Conservative......CNN news:Nopenhagen: US PRES 2 WKS LATE ATTEND 1 DAY, GORE JOURNEY BY TRAIN.

Why the exclusive focus on risking U.S. lives? (4.00 / 7)
The primary victims here are Afghanis:
http://www.rawa.org/s-photos.htm

Are their lives less valuable?

"[Obama is] making something worse than a mistake. It is a continuation of a war crime against the suffering people of my country."
--Malalai Joya
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comm...


Exactly (4.00 / 1)
Although I think the total number of lives lost in Afghanistan  remains relatively unchanged due to our involvement.  We are saving lives as well as taking them away.  Not exactly a ringing endorsement, though, is it?

But I always have a problem when liberals focus on just the Americans in these kinds of issues.  Our actions effected everyone.  


[ Parent ]
American Insulation (4.00 / 1)
The American conservative ideological hegemony, which most liberals ascribe to because they don't have their own narrative, does not allow for a consideration of negative impacts abroad.  We can consider the developing world when it's to bring 'democracy' but not education, health assistance, debt relief, or agricultural/food support.

Look at global warming.  We're talking in Copenhagen in what, a couple days, and a huge issue is global equity and American responsibility for climate change.  Who's making what cuts, who's helping with the technology transfer that would make the developing world's avoidance of Western mistakes even imaginable?  This is not even a part of the discussion in the internal American debate.  Fuck, even the effects of global warming on AMERICAN communities are hardly on the table.  They just talk about it as a problem that has to be addressed without any real discussion as to whether the methods will be commensurate with the problem.  All the focus is on the problems with the policy rather than the natural disaster we continue to court with abandon.

The fact that Africa and India are going to starve, Bangladesh is going to drown, the Maldives are going to fucking disappear, glaciers everywhere are going to melt depriving upwards of a BILLION people with drinking water and irrigation, international conflict is going to make contemporary instability look like a walk in the fucking park?  Nada, no international consideration.  We can hardly take care of ourselves, let alone the developing world.  We have absolutely no sense of international responsibility in any arena.  Period.

Figuring out how to be a progressive college graduate transplant to Ohio:  http://citizenobie.wordpress.com/


[ Parent ]
The bigger picture (4.00 / 4)
"Like the Soviets, the Americans do not understand that the insurgency is driven not only by Islamist fundamentalism, but also by ethnic nationalism. *** Islamist fundamentalism and foreign occupation are two sides of the same coin. They reinforce each other, feed off of each other, and need each other. But two wrongs don't make a right."
http://www.counterpunch.org/gr...

According to one of the non-Taliban leaders of so-called "insurgents" (whose perspective is ignored by our warmongering media):
"The foreign troops are the cause for the prolonging of the war, their presence means the war will be not ended and no security can be established."
http://www.mpacuk.org/story/02...


[ Parent ]
Why believe public statements of Taliban leaders? (0.00 / 0)
Or do you think they are not intelligent enough to present fraudulent arguments for achieving what they want? NATO stands in their way of taking over the country once again. They would say EVERYTHING to make them withdraw. This propaganda crap doesnt deserve being taken seriously.

[ Parent ]
NON-Taliban (0.00 / 0)
Read it again. This is a so-called "insurgent" (some would call "freedom fighter") who is not Taliban.

[ Parent ]
Oops, ok. And the insurgents are always honest? (0.00 / 0)
If course, the want the US to leave, too. Why else would they fight them?  

[ Parent ]
Let's Not Forget (4.00 / 3)
The date I've seen floated for withdrawal is summer 2011, which strikes me as conveniently close to the time about which Obama will need to start drumming up support for reelection.

This was a political move, plain and simple.  Lives mean nothing compared to political image.  I don't mean to condemn Obama alone for this, he's just a product of a dysfunctional system.  I just wish he was less of a product.

Figuring out how to be a progressive college graduate transplant to Ohio:  http://citizenobie.wordpress.com/


I don't think there's any question (4.00 / 9)
that Obama didn't this at least in part because he feared doing the hard thing, the thing that would rattle the establishment, both the hawkish political establishment that dominates both parties and the generals who have been controlling Obama since he came into office, forcing him to delay getting out of Iraq, to conceal evidence of torture, and now to escalate in Afghanistan. Obama feared that a call for withdrawal would generate a furor that would swallow his presidency. (Never mind that the most transformative thing he could have done was to take on the National Security State.) This fits perfectly with what we now know about the chronically cautious Obama, who talks soaringly and governs as a timid technocrat. Though in fairness to Obama, he was probably worried less about "his image" than his crappy health care bill.

But I see no reason to doubt that Obama does genuinely buy the program to some degree, particularly the aspect of the war that has gone under-discussed, the undeclared dirty war in Pakistan.

Administration officials said that Mr. Obama had signed off on a plan by the Central Intelligence Agency to expand C.I.A. activities in Pakistan. The plan calls for more strikes against militants by drone aircraft, sending additional spies to Pakistan and securing a White House commitment to bulk up the C.I.A.'s budget for operations inside the country.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12...

I think the surge in Afghanistan should be seen a cover for this even more pernicious war, which, of course, is destabilizing Pakistan and fueling unparalleled anti-American sentiment. Chew on this graph for a bit.

Our war in the border regions is being fought by drone assassinations. A man at the control sits in front of a screen in Las Vegas, and fires when he has a certain shot. To a primitive mind (but not only to a primitive mind), this experiment on a country not our own has the trappings a video game played in hell. But the procedure was here embraced by the president in the antiseptic idiom of a practiced technocrat. He gave no sign of the effects of such killings by a foreign power out of reach in the sky. To assassinate one major operative, Baitullah Mehsud, as Jane Mayer showed in a recent article in the New Yorker, 16 strikes were necessary, over 14 months, killing a total of as many as 538 persons, of whom 200-300 were bystanders. What comes of the reputation of policemen in a crime-ridden neighborhood when they conduct themselves like that? And what makes anyone suppose the reaction will be less extreme when the policeman comes from another country? And yet, from the president's West Point speech, one would not guess that he has reflected what our mere presence in West Asia does to increase the enchantment of violent resistance and to heat the anger that turns into terrorists people who have lost parents, children, cousins, clansmen, and friends to the Americans. The total number of Muslims killed by Americans in revenge for the attacks of September 11th now numbers more than a hundred thousand. Of those, few were members of Al Qaeda, and few harbored any intention, for good or ill, toward the United States before we crossed the ocean as an occupying power.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...



The same logic (4.00 / 2)
applies in the case of the Karzai government. COIN doctrine decrees that you need to have a government ally seen by the populace as legitimate. If you don't have that, you can't succeed.

The Karzai government will certainly never be perceived as legit.

So anyone advocating COIN in good faith would have to concede that the game is up, the war can't work, we have to get out, just as he'd have to agree that 100K troops cannot do the job.

So this proves that none of them - not Obama, not Petraeus or McChrystal - are advocating in good faith, since for all of them their own doctrine (which P himself helped write) is clearly there not to be responsibly used, but to be used and abused according to convenience.

I don't know what the Obama ratio is of lying to cowardice. I imagine with the generals it's mostly lies.  

http://attempter.wordpress.com


Bogus numbers (4.00 / 4)
The 600,000 number is baseless and false from the get-go.

There are no realistic numbers about what it takes to fight an insurgency. Those numbers grow out of the only successful counter-insurgency military action of the late 20th century -- against Communists in Malaysia.  There were 4,000 insurgents and 40,000 British troops ... ergo, 10:1 ratios of troops to insurgents can stop an insurgency.

But that's working from a statistical sample of 1. Not sound mathematics. Not to mention that Malaysia is a penninsula where the insurgents were easily isolated and the insurgents were ethnically separate from the majority of Malaysians and couldn't count on them for support.

The thing people are missing here is the radical shift in the entire basis of the military operation from Bush to Obama.

Bush used the war to justify his political authoritarianism at home. It had no real global political purpose beyond that.

Now there is a political goal that the military is assigned to accomplish. They've been given a time limit to accomplish it.

And the goal seems to be limited -- go after insurgents around Kandahar. Not the full-scale nationwide effort that the (false) doctrine says requires 600,000 troops.


[ Parent ]
Where is the shift of which you speak? (4.00 / 3)
The thing people are missing here is the radical shift in the entire basis of the military operation from Bush to Obama.

Bush used the war to justify his political authoritarianism at home. It had no real global political purpose beyond that.

Obama has given the same justifications - in public, at least - as GWB. The time-line is a political ploy to set himself up for re-election. So what has changed?

The only shift I see is a worrying one - Obama seems to be pitching "Stay the Course 2.0". Essentially promising to continue the Bush-initiated war, only to do it more effectively.  

Sorry, that is not the kind of "change" I believe in.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Indeed, there is reason to believe (0.00 / 0)
that any notion of a "centralized" governing structure would be, at best, ephemeral in Afghanistan.
My Cousin's Enemy is My Friend: A Study of Pashtun "Tribes" in Afghanistan
Afghanistan Research Reachback Center White Paper
TRADOC G2 Human Terrain System
United States Army
Fort Leavenworth, KS
September 2009

Military officers and policymakers, in their search for solutions to problems in Afghanistan, have considered empowering "the tribes" as one possible way to reduce rates of violence. In this report, the HTS Afghanistan RRC warns that the desire for "tribal engagement" in Afghanistan, executed along the lines of the recent "Surge" strategy in Iraq, is based on an erroneous understanding of the human terrain. In fact, the way people in rural Afghanistan organize themselves is so different from rural Iraqi culture that calling them both "tribes" is deceptive. [emphasis original]



[ Parent ]
"Karzai government will certainly never be perceived as legit."? (0.00 / 0)
Certainly? Where do you find that certainty? Where are your facts?

[ Parent ]
not very convincing (4.00 / 1)
Your implication is that General McChrystal's report (which was leaked by the way) has a secret appendix which says

By the way, all of this is bullshit, I'm just guessing what helps you politically. Or maybe "Rahm wrote this for me."

The troop differences are explained by counting Afghan troops and police. This has extensively been discussed online so I'm surprised you've only seen in McClatchy. Hence, the emphasis on training new Afghan troops. Of course, it seems extremely unlikely that such troops will really materialize, but that is the plan.

New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


You are basically calling David Sirota a liar (0.00 / 0)
.

[ Parent ]
No - he's calling the U.S. Army Field Manual a liar (4.00 / 1)
It's not me saying there needs to be 600,000 troops - it's the U.S. Army's new counterinsurgency field manual.

What you've seen here is the typical tactics of pathetic people - when they have no argument, they lie. In this case, the lie in this comment thread is that I've somehow fabricated - or that it's just MY opinion and not the military's - that we need 600,000 troops to accomplish the goals Obama says can be accomplished with 30,000 troops.


[ Parent ]
There is another possibility (4.00 / 1)
I was going to write this after reading the threads, but you sort of beat me to it.  Maybe instead of being a cold political calculation, Obama really does believe that the numbers in the U.S. Army Field Manual are wrong.  It would have been a lot easier to announce his decision several months ago, rather than taking all the flack he did for "dithering".  Maybe he really was doing all the research that he could to find the right number.

I'm not saying that this is the answer, I'm not a "Obama can do no wrong" person.  But it is another possibility to add to the three options that you listed.


[ Parent ]
Not calling Dave a liar (4.00 / 1)
Not at all. I should have been clearer.

I am disputing the Army Field Manual here, not you, Dave.

For all its big talk, the manual doesn't have a lot of historical data to base it's conclusions on.

Nearly all insurgencies are ended through political processes -- settlements, negotiations, etc. Not by military force.

My point is that if those numbers are not reliable, it's possible that Obama is not relying on them.

That weakens the argument you're making here (that Obama is only doing this for political purposes because it would really take more troops to win a counterinsurgency campaign). But that doesn't mean your point is necessarily wrong or that I even disagree with it.

I just have trouble with the false certainties that the military continues to offer about its ability to defeat an assymetrical foe with overwhelming force. And I would urge you to rely on another source to make your argument.


[ Parent ]
All Out (4.00 / 2)
Actually, if you read the quote it says:

an all-out counterinsurgency campaign in a country with Afghanistan's population would require about 600,000 troops

which, without having read the report, implies this would be the maximum number required, not the minimum.


[ Parent ]
Well it would mean that it is far less... (4.00 / 1)
...than an all-out counterinsurgency campaign.  Obama is trying to do things the Bush way, he is using 1/6th of the amount of troops needed to do what he claims he wants to do.

Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me-and I welcome their hatred. - FDR

[ Parent ]
Don't forget the Afghan security forces... (0.00 / 0)
..numbering about 100000, and the police, about 90000 officers. And recently more local militas, numbers yet unknown, have been employed to fight the Taliban. All in all, this makes the picture look more positive.  

[ Parent ]
contractors (0.00 / 0)
Throw in our mercinaries (over 100,000,) I heard).

Government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob..... FDR

[ Parent ]
Aren't they only making the situation worse? (0.00 / 0)
Honestly, I have some dire concerns if those contractors, with their well known disregard for the civil population, are really helpful...

[ Parent ]
This is flame. It is an attempt to create nothing but anger and stupidity. (0.00 / 0)
I think this deserves troll rating.

If it is merely a very uninformed person who is not used to discussing important things, then WTH, disagreeing is part and parcel, calling sources into question is not just fair game, but represents a line toward agreement for example.

If you cannot contribute more than, "lets you and him fight" perhaps you could post at facebook, they dont care.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Right you mean these Afghan troops? (4.00 / 2)
You mean these Afghan security forces that Obama says he won't support?

http://online.wsj.com/article/...

I linked to that piece in my post - but I forgot, you don't read posts before commenting. My bad.


[ Parent ]
That's a point. Dumb policy by Obama. (0.00 / 0)
Of course, he needs to strengthen the Afghan security forces. How will he ever be able to conduct a withdrawal without someone stepping into the vaccuum NATO will leave behind? Does he want to withdraw under Taliban fire?

And 240000 troops isn't that much for a nation of 28 million people that is haunted by insecurity in many regions. 100000 soldiers certainly are not enough. Also, if this is really based on Obama being sceptical of Karzai, how does he believe that guy will be able to become more acceptable for his population, if even his own allies publicly show a lack of confidence in him? Idiotiv policy. Really, I'm more and more coming to the conclusion that Obama is really naive when it comes to foreign policy. And that's why he hasn't accomplished anything in that field yet.


[ Parent ]
Every man that dies in this war was personally murdered by Obama. (1.60 / 5)
as far as I am concerned.

Impeach him now.


I assume this means this a bannable poster. (3.00 / 4)
That's two strikes by my count. Although again, it may be just someone who has no political experience at all.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
You really take the cop role seriously (4.00 / 3)
If folks in the anti-war movement are serious, why should we treat Obama any differently than we treated Bush?

I advocated that GWB be impeached for his failures with regard to the war efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq, why shouldn't I call for Obama's impeachment for the same reason?

Why should someone be banned for expressing support for an idea with which you may disagree?

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Indeed I think that comment fits well with the general philosophy of the open left website (0.00 / 0)
It would make no sense for the proprietors of open left to ban the people who agree with them.

http://transgendermom.blogspot....

[ Parent ]
In response to both comments on my "cop" fuming (4.00 / 1)
The comment, the liar comment above, and the handle worsethanhitler, and joining two days ago mark this poster to me as a troll. I indicated in both comments that I might be wrong, though backhandedly I admit.

I think my first comment is on the money. I like heat and directness, but trying to cause the site to implode I will fight.

I didnt troll rate, I discussed.

Cops dont discuss, they arrest, talking is what cops dont do, troll rating is arresting.

We have a lot of work to do, merely causing fights isnt what openleft is about. Solutions, discussion, moving forward and getting stuff done is.  

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
You patrol your beat and threaten those who you deem (0.00 / 0)
unsuitable with banishment.

You're right, that's not a "cop", at least not a good cop.

"Self-appointed pogrom manager", is that better?



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Don't be a drama queen, spitty! (4.00 / 1)
"Self-appointed pogrom manager", really! Several people here don't want OpenLeft to become like DKos, and that's why were keepoing an eye on newbies who don't really contrbute anything useful, but seem to be more interested in flame baits and trolling. Hey, do you think our discussions here  would improve by tolerating such "commenters"?  

[ Parent ]
I have absolutely no power at all. (0.00 / 0)
I dont know the owners of the site, I dont have any admin keys, I cant throw anyone out, I cant do one single thing besides TR'ing or discussing. I have called for banning a couple of asshats, and was roundly ignored.

I dont TR because its anti democratic, anti brainstorming and anti educational. As above, I discuss so that the site can stay open to substantive discussion.  

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
How do such over the top rants fit "with the general philosophy"? (0.00 / 0)
I thought the idea behind OpenLeft is to have reasonable discussions, and not an exchange of mere rants, mom?

[ Parent ]
apparently you do not agree, but sending people into a war zone to die (2.00 / 2)
is murder as far as I am concerned.  

[ Parent ]
so (4.00 / 2)
we can then assume that you consider FDR one of the worst mass-murderers in history?

[ Parent ]
At least WWII was a morally justifiable war (0.00 / 0)
and not AFGHANICIDE.

[ Parent ]
. (4.00 / 2)
Didn't answer my question.  FDR murdered hundreds of thousands, right?

[ Parent ]
I did answer it. (0.00 / 0)
read again.  and again. and again.  until you get it.

[ Parent ]
So think going to war isnt murder. (0.00 / 0)
And you think the difference between Afghanistan and Germany is not worth discussing, but you are unwilling to discuss the arguments.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
I'm sorry, but that made no sense to me (0.00 / 0)
.

[ Parent ]
You are only willing to post venom. (0.00 / 0)
There are things we need to do to make the leaving happen sooner, to make the drive for peace part of who we are again, to reduce the automatic acceptance of military recommendations as fact etc etc.

Yopu support some wars, not others, care to discuss why and where? Care to discuss military spending. Care to discuss ending military industrial complex?

Do you think "impeaching" Obama will produce a President that wants out sooner? etc

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
We don't need to devolve to namecalling (0.00 / 0)
it's fairly easy to discriminate between a way that was, in large part, a defensive war and a war fought to secure access to an oil pipeline.

[ Parent ]
The person who calls himself worsethanhitler says "We don't need to devolve to namecalling" !!?! (0.00 / 0)
no further comment necessary

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
I didn't call anyone worse than hitler (0.00 / 0)
Please, can we not get personal here?

[ Parent ]
The person who calls himself worsethanhitler (0.00 / 0)
The person who calls himself worsethanhitler
The person who calls himself worsethanhitler
The person who calls himself worsethanhitler

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Also. (0.00 / 0)
I asked a large number of questions.

I urge you to join in the process of ending what Republican Presidents Eisenhower warned us of, the "Military - Industrial - Congressional  - Complex", for example.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
uh, ok (0.00 / 0)
that's what I thought I was doing.

[ Parent ]
. (4.00 / 1)
No you didn't.  It's a yes/no question.  Say yes, or say no.

You said that WWII was "morally justified", which doesn't answer the question.  I kind of sort of implies an answer of "no", which would contradict your original statement.  So I'm giving you the opportunity to clear it up:

Do you think that FDR murdered hundreds of thousands of Americans?  Do you think that he's one of the wost mass-murderers in history?  Yes or no.


[ Parent ]
Uhuh. It all depends on what YOU see as "a morally justifiable war" (0.00 / 0)
Then ,would you pls present some reasonable arguments what's ethical objectionable about the Afghan war?

[ Parent ]
chirp chirp (0.00 / 0)


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
cheep cheep? (0.00 / 0)
where's your poppa gone

where's your poppa gone

far
far away

far
far away


?

[ Parent ]
"chirp chirp" is, for those who do not live with ubiquitous crickets (4.00 / 1)
the sound of silence in most of non deep urban America, and often, even there. If you can hear chirps, then it is quiet indeed. Its a saying.

I think you have what answer you are getting in other words.



--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Ah, thx for providing the answer for us culturally (US) handicapped. (4.00 / 1)
Even though I'm an urban guy, I still know the sound of crickets from occasional visits in the wasteland, uh, the countryside. But here in Germany, nobody would mistake the annoying noise of those useless insects for silence. It may instead be seen as typical for a romantic scenery, just like the sound of the ocean, occasionally.

Well, thx for enhancing my vocabulary of AE!


[ Parent ]
not sure how you're counting "srikes" here (4.00 / 1)
My screen shows to people have recommended this comment.

According two this individual's ID page they are either (a) a brand new participant in Open Left's threads, (b) a previously banned participant who has come back on a proxy, or (c) a current/former participant who has assumed a "new" screen name.

I vote benefit of the doubt.  If a mere troll, that will reveal itself soon enough.


[ Parent ]
Well that edit (0.00 / 0)
of two and to didn't work out very well.

[ Parent ]
I dopnt like troll rating unless its obvious spam or meant to disrupt the site. (4.00 / 1)
I prefer bad arguments to be discussed, useless multi-posters who always make arguments that are troll-like and disrupt the site to cause banning.

I didn't troll rate the point, or try to hide it. I discussed it.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Sure looks like a troll. (4.00 / 1)
Registered just 3 days ago, and all of his comments seem to be designed to disrupt the discussion here. And the name "worsethanhitler" shows the guy only wants to spread his rants here, and probably has no real interest in engaging in real arguments. Imho he shouldn't be banned now, but his welcome is already rnnung short. Let's keep an eye on him.

[ Parent ]
May one inquire whether or not you (4.00 / 1)
extolled the same consequences for the previous standard-bearer for USer Imperial militarism?

your date of joining these festivities (Tuesday) suggests there will be little record from which we might judge your authenticity, WTH...


[ Parent ]
I think this illustrates the incredible unlikelihood of change from within the Forbidden City (4.00 / 4)
What Obama is doing is just what the Presidency has evolved to do, given its role inside the government (with C-in-C being the key part of the job now), and its position within the broader power-center of DC.

He's trying to find a way to be very popular - ie. considered very "strong" and manly - among Washington insiders (thus the escalation), while simultaneously limiting the unpopularity of his actions among the general public (thus an escalation far short of what his own military experts say is necessary). And because of that unbridled political narcissism - because of that apparent desire to be loved not just by his constituents (ie. the public) but also (and more importantly to Obama) by the Washington power class - troops lives are being put on the line unnecessarily.

I think it's deeper than just Obama wanting to be loved by Establishment DC.  The escalation is a signal that the way things are done in DC is the way things should be done in DC.  It's a reinforcement of the basic power-relations in our country, an indication that that the President is not planning to challenge the Establishment in any fundamental way.  It's not just that he wants to be loved, but that he loves them back.

Which shouldn't be a big surprise, despite Obama's calls for change during the campaign.  People who think we can elect a President and expect that President, who becomes the leader of Establishment DC, to undermine its and his own power, are the folks that Frederick Douglass thought wanted crops without plowing the ground, and rain without thunder and lightning.


I've got to disagree with this statement: (4.00 / 1)
President Obama is a smart person - he's not an idiot like George W. Bush.

Obama has about as much intelligence between those satellite dishes he calls ears as a turnip.  He's as dumb as bricks, and anyone who tells you otherwise is lying or delusional.

For what "smart" guy throws tens of thousands of lives away for the sake of [fill-in-the-blank]?  What "smart" guy reaches out to the ravenous zombies that make up the GOP time and time again, what was once his hand now reduced to a bloody stump just below the elbow, thinking that if he gives them more, they'll finally be placated?  What "smart" guy alienates his own party's base and the public the way Obama has, practically guaranteeing his own political doom?  

Obama's only saving grace compared to Bush is that he can string together a coherent sentence.  That doesn't take a lot of intelligence.  In fact, it takes hardly any at all compared to the mental midgetry demonstrated by the usual gang of Washington idiots on a daily basis.  Why keeps giving this guy credit for things he never earned, like smarts or the benefit of the doubt?

Single-Payer is the ONLY viable public option.


Personally, I don't think either one is an idiot (4.00 / 6)
GWB burnished that perception because it is easier for people to forgive fools, but they rarely forgive those that act with malicious intent.

Obama makes some mistakes and he is far too hesitant to stray from the status quo, but "idiot" is not the first word that comes to mind.

Maybe I'm just living in delusion because I don't want to admit that our nation political system is so dysfunctional that functional idiots can rise to ne the President, but that's the cross I have to bear.

Letting them off on the technical point that they are fools is going way too easy on them.  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
dumb as bricks, or smart and completely cynical NT (0.00 / 0)
*

"I think the economic logic behind dumping a load of toxic waste in the lowest wage country is impeccable and we should face up to that."
-Lawrence Summers


[ Parent ]
okay lets talk nuts and bolts (4.00 / 5)
This war, like all wars with extremely extremely small numbers of exceptions, was wrong and immoral from the getgo.  It is now unconscionable.  How do we end it?

Who are the preeminent anti-war people in Congrses and in the Democratic Party AND outside the Democratic Party that we need to support so they have a base to work with.   We need to put at LEAST as much thought and effort into this as the health care bill because:

a) there's a lot of of people's health involved, not least people in Afghanistan and Pakistan and working class and/or people of color in the United States and their families and communities (i.e. 'the troops').

b) It's our money they're doing this with.  If we pay taxes or have in 10 years there is blood on OUR hands too, and I say that's unacceptable unless we really really really try to do something about it now.


what is missing... (4.00 / 3)

What is missing from the analysis above is that which is always missing from discussions of American foreign policy: the role of the military industrial complex, Wall Street and American investments in the global economy in sustaining a national security police state that spends more money on "defense" than all the rest of the world's nation's combined.

In other words, what is rarely if ever discussed regarding the American "mission" in Afghanistan is the mission of American foreign policy itself. And it is certainly not the pursuit of ideals like democracy, freedom and human rights. Instead, it revolves around sustaining as favorable a business climate for Wall Street in the global economy as possible.

Consider:

From the website The Debate 11/30/09:

IN 1998 AMERICA WANTED NEW GOVERNMENT IN AFGHANISTAN TO ALLOW CONSTRUCTION OF OIL PIPELINE

America has wanted a new government in Afghanistan since at least 1998, three years before the attacks on 11 September 2001. The official report from a meeting of the U.S. Government's foreign policy committee on 12 February 1998, available on the U.S. Government website, confirms that the need for a West-friendly government was recognised long before the War on Terror that followed September 11th:

"The U.S. Government's position is that we support multiple pipelines...

The Unocal pipeline is among those pipelines that would receive our support under that policy. I would caution that while we do support the project, the U.S. Government has not at this point recognized any governing regime of the transit country, one of the transit countries,
Afghanistan, through which that pipeline would be routed. But we do support the project."

[ U.S. House of Reps., "U.S. Interests in the Central Asian Republics", 12 Feb 1998 ]

"The only other possible route [for the desired oil pipeline] is across, Afghanistan which has of course its own unique challenges."

[ "U.S. Interests in the Central Asian Republics", 12 Feb 1998 ]

"CentGas can not begin construction until an internationally recognized
Afghanistan Government is in place."

george:

Or this from the website Truthout:

Nick Mottern 10/22/09

Less well known in the US is that Central Asia, that includes Kazakhstan, Uzebekistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan, holds substantial oil, gas and hydroelectric resources that are viewed as critical over the course of this century to the economic success of Europe, Russia, China, India and the US. For example, Turkmenistan has the fourth largest natural gas reserves after Russia, Iran and the US, and Kazakhstan may have oil reserves equal to those in Iraq. Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan have a great potential for expanding hydroelectric power; by one estimate, Tajikistan can eventually generate nearly the same amount of hydroelectricity as India does today.

Or from the website webdiary:

Colin Miller:

Initially the Taliban enjoyed the support of Bill Clinton's administration for a campaign against Iran, but the most strategically important goal was to secure the region's oil and gas. In 1996-98 the US government supported the (US) Unocal oil company's plans for a pipeline from Turkmenistan to Pakistan via Afghanistan.

What was support (or indifference) toward the Taliban in the Clinton years, has turned to antagonism and a goal of elimination, whatever the cost, today. So many near neighbours have meddled in Afghanistan's affairs over decades - notably Pakistan and Russia, and to a lesser degree Iran and Saudi Arabia - that the region has rarely been free of conflict. And never more so than now, with the resurgent Taliban being fought vigorously with the stakes raised to dizzying heights in the interests of oil, and oil interests.

Prior to September 11, United States' policy toward the Taliban was largely influenced by oil. In their book, Ben Laden, la verite interdite, 2002, (Bin Laden, the forbidden truth), former French intelligence officer Jean-Charles Brisard and journalist Guillaume Dasquie document the "oil" connection between George W. Bush and the Taliban.

The United States' dependence on Middle East, and soon Central Asian, oil and gas has led the US government to intervene militarily under a variety of pretexts, which change to suit the domestic political mood at any given time. The development of a coherent U.S. energy policy would obviate the real (or perceived) need to dominate other countries.

george:

Is an analysis of Barack Obama's psychological defense mechanisms a part of the discussion? Sure, why not. But it pales next to the Bilderberg, CFR, TC agenda.

Right?



These points, these facts if not to say exactly this construction, is central to discussing (0.00 / 0)
..not just the way out, but preventing the next occupation.

We were lied to in order to start a war, mislead, on purpose. It was not because "he heard voices" or because "hes is teh stupid" - there are reasons that a complex as large as this can be motivated to action as large and complex as this. These reasons need understanding, study and action. If we are to set the conditions for a world where it is not the norm, not the expected, not the called for, not the necessary actions of a democracy.

The price of oil does not contain the costs of environmental damage, the costs of a military to insure its supply transport and delivery or the costs the industry transfers to the state in health for example and it does not contain the huge multi-billion dollar direct government to oil giant payments.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
worse than that (0.00 / 0)
It's not like the U.S. would do without the needed oil if we didn't procure it with our military. Only the huge multinational oil giants that originated here would be left out of the equation if we abandonded foreign wars based on access to oil resorces.

The oil producing countries cannot refuse to sell just as we cannot refuse to buy. They need the sale for their own economic reasons.

If not American based oil profiteers, then foreign based ones would happily sell oil products here. And why not? Toyotas and BMWs seem to get around here just fine without American based companies. So does Citgo. So would any foreign company allowed to operate here.

Why can't U.S. based oil companies compete on a level playing field in the crude oil procurment area with the other oil companies of the world? Without our military could they even exist?

If foreign oil cos. could sell here, maby they would generate some price competition. FREE TRADE that lowers the price to the consumer is good, regardless who gets hurt...... right?



Government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob..... FDR


[ Parent ]
But Shell Oil is Dutch, BP is British Petroleum, Citigo is foreign as well (0.00 / 0)
They do sell, and import, from who they like. I don't understand. Please expand your point.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
clarified point (0.00 / 0)
Of the costs you mentioned in your last paragraph, the benifit of military operations and direct governmant subsidies are only given to U.S. based multinationals. I.e. the united states taxpayer supports these oil giants over other oil companies... Yet they collude to unify retail prices.

Other oil companies manage to stay in business (even here to an extent) without this subsudizing. And I asked if the U.S. companys could compete without these supporting funds and military operations.

If we could open our market to all competiters, capitalism says the effective monopoly our oil giants enjoy would collapse and the price would more fairly represent a legitamate profit margin.

Agree with everything you said, just wanted to add that monopoly like priceing is another cost we are forced to pay in this distorted market.

Government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob..... FDR


[ Parent ]
COIN is (0.00 / 0)
just another program that stands for extermination! We used it with the First Americans, the Vietnamese(3 million civilians killed)and now we want to use it against the Afghans. What a recruiting tool for the people who hate us.

coin? (0.00 / 0)


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Counter-Insurgency (0.00 / 0)
Wikipedia article here.


[ Parent ]
Yes I figured it out eventually thanks (4.00 / 2)
I am familiar with counter insurgency, diudnt click on the acronym.

PCMCIA stands for people cant memorize computer industry acronyms.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
I'm with Dave (4.00 / 1)
I think Obama is acting just like the Dems acted in Vietnam---escalating to avoid Republican criticism.  It's all in Daniel Ellsberg's "Papers on the War', IIRC.

Sirota has Obama's number as clearly as Rep Hinchey has Bush's number.  These emporer's have no clothes.


I'm with HAL (4.00 / 1)
"Look Dave, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over."
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt00...

[ Parent ]
LOL so completely off topic is funny too. Thanks, lol. (0.00 / 0)


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
"all out" (0.00 / 0)
Did Obama say that he was going to wage a country-wide, all-out counterinsurgency effort and I missed it?  Would it even be possible or necessary to do so (that is, are insurgents literally everywhere in Afghanistan)?

For so much of this article to be based on the 600k number, the evidence of Obama wanting or needing to wage that kind of war is pretty thin.


No it appears to be a very limited counter-insurgency (0.00 / 0)
With entire areas of the country being left out. Each section of the country would also be identified as cleared, from what I understand, and turned over during the 18 months before transitioning out.

I think this is closest here:

I think Obama is acting just like the Dems acted in Vietnam---escalating to avoid Republican criticism.  It's all in Daniel Ellsberg's "Papers on the War', IIRC.

Sirota has Obama's number as clearly as Rep Hinchey has Bush's number.  These emporer's have no clothes.
by: JRD--Iowa @ Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 13:17


If this had been done last november, with a short surge and now a few moths away, to leave on schedule with Iraq, I would support it as a brutal ugly necessity to leaving. This late, its hard to find support for the delay before leaving.

What ever we can do to make the leaving date happen sooner, happen definitely and switch not just to training but population protection is what needs to be worked for.

"Impeaching Obama for murder" is ludicrous of course, making a political will for leaving is not.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Thin indeed (0.00 / 0)
Obama spends months talking to military people, probably including the writers of the report sited, and all that is compared to one sentence that doesn't even support the central point very well.

Personally, I think the escalation is a huge mistake.  We are already spending a couple times Afghanistan's entire GDP over there; that percentage will only go up.  The military is not the most efficient use of funds, even in Afghanistan.  

And if you take that money and spend it here we could easily solve most of our problems, fixing our infrastructure, building new energy systems and rail, etc., etc.  Even realizing that politically that might not be possible, simply not spending this money at all would help with the deficit worries that are making the other stuff harder.  (At least if you take those worries at face value, which probably is not correct, anyway.)


[ Parent ]
No (0.00 / 0)
He is simply cleaning up the mess before we leave.

It won't even take 18 months.


[ Parent ]
He's also repealing DADT (4.00 / 3)
and protecting a woman's right to choose, and closing Guantanamo and what else now?

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
A Bit of History (4.00 / 1)
From (roughly) 1851 to 1900, to possibly as late as 1905 (when attacks by individual Apaches finally ended,) the US Army fought what has been come to be called "The Apache Wars."  Without giving a precis of the conflict it can be said these wars were conducted against a relatively small group of fighters over a large desert territory approximating that of Afghanistan.  So much so the US Army is now using New Mexico as a training area for troops scheduled to deploy to Afghanistan.  

To finally end the 'organized' and 'active' phase of the Apache Wars in the US Southwest, "[General] Miles deployed over 2 dozen heliograph points, coordinating 5,000 soldiers, 500 Apache scouts, 100 Navajo Scouts, and thousands of civilian militia against Geronimo and his twenty-four warriors."  Arbitrarily quantifying "thousands of civilian militia" to mean 2,000 that's 7,600 to 25 or odds of 304:1.  

Nobody knows the exact number of Taliban fighters.  Analysts, according to the Times of India, estimate it could be as many as 40,000.  Just for comparison purposes call it 20,000 meaning to achieve the same ratio that ended the Apache Wars the US would have to field a force of 6,080,000.  To put that in perspective, there was (approximately) 9,000,000 men in the US Army during World War Two.

With this bit of history it is possible to predict:  the deployment of an additional 100,000 troops by the US military is pointless.  Even the 600,000 number is less than one tenth of the number required using the historic example.  


Obama didn't make this decision by himself (4.00 / 2)
He is not an independent decision maker: he is the CEO of a huge decision making apparatus. Rather than speculating about his own thought processes, one needs to look at the history of how arguments evolved among military officials and Obama's national security team.

The Power Struggle Behind Obama's Speech

Obama's Tortured Rationale

Senior White House officials know that the Taliban doesn't threaten the U.S. But somehow the military won in this struggle, and the McChrystal line of argument (fear mongering) won out too. Obama is part of a system he cannot change had he ever wanted to, the imperialist president of an imperialist country deeply entrenched in an imperialist war. Such wars can never be justified to the people frankly, for what they're worth, but have to be based on lies and supported by fear.

To everyone's surprise, Obama is continuing what Bush started: the acceleration of the collapse of the American empire. I had thought he would manage the Empire more rationally.

It's interesting that Obama nowhere mentions Britain's or the Soviet Union's experiences in Afghanistan in his speech, two other empires that ended after engaging in misadventures there.


Neither of those super powers however said we are leaving - until they were defeated. (0.00 / 0)
You can say that American forces have been defeated, but that is just rhetoric. Can't afford to win- yes thats arguable, but America runs on war spending, so its not perfectly true.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Britain was up-front about being an empire... (4.00 / 1)
so of course it wouldn't announce that it was going to leave. As for the Soviets, I'm sure they said that they were there only temporarily, until the country was "stabilized".

As for America running on war spending: (1) it runs on consumer spending too (recently financed by increasing indebtedness), but that doesn't work any more, since too many consumers simply do not have sufficient incomes any more to generate the required demand -- and Obama's not doing anything about that, his economics team having decided to forgo a second stimulus package; (2) an empire financing its war spending by borrowing from foreign powers is not sustainable.


[ Parent ]
An empire economically dependent (4.00 / 3)
on resources that can only be acquired by war, fighting those wars on borrowed money and with mercenaries is ESPECIALLY not sustainable.

A real scholar would know that.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
The American military budget is greater than all the world military budgets combined (4.00 / 2)
America is the largest weapons seller ion the world. Also.

There are Military bases that are bigger than cities, and countries.

I think the military is necessary, sorry pacifists, and that includes members of my family and ancestors, but5 that the size of the military is outrageous. However, that is not my point: America recovered from tyhe great depression with stimulus spending and the war effort. This is not debatable, it is merely useful for rhetoric.

And Sadie adds the last point about the disfigurement of the economy that once more points to its overarching importance, above.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
For any plan to "passify" Afghanistan to succeed (4.00 / 2)
the cooperation of the Pashtu majority will be necessary. They do not particularly want to kill Americans, but they do not care if they have to.

They will not cooperate with the narco-kleptocracy that is the puppet Karzai's regime. Not ever.

Tajiks and Uzbeks (the old "Norther Alliance") can be bought off, but not the Pashtu.

There's gonna be/already is a civil war in Afghanistan, and Obama--because his plan requires a 'government' in Kabul for the plan to have any domestic political plausibility--has placed the USofA on the wrong side of history, again.

History doesn't repeat itself, but Viet Nam and Afghanistan are close enough to rhymes to make me nervous...


Can we start calling it (4.00 / 1)
"Afghani Nam" yet?

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Obama's anti-MacArthur moment (4.00 / 2)
Tom Engelhardt has a good take on this:

Think of this as Barack Obama's anti-MacArthur moment.  In April 1951, in the midst of the Korean War, President Harry Truman relieved Douglas MacArthur of command of American forces.  He did so because the general, a far grander public figure than either McChrystal or Centcom commander Petraeus (and with dreams of his own about a possible presidential run), had publicly disagreed with, and interfered with, Truman's plans to "limit" the war after the Chinese intervened.

Obama, too, has faced what Robert Dreyfuss in Rolling Stone calls a "generals' revolt" -- amid fears that his Republican opposition would line up behind the insubordinate field commanders and make hay in the 2010 and 2012 election campaigns.  Obama, too, has faced a general, Petraeus, who might well have presidential ambitions, and who has played a far subtler game than MacArthur ever did.  After more than two months of what right-wing critics termed "dithering" and supporters called "thorough deliberations," Obama dealt with the problem quite differently.  He essentially agreed to subordinate himself to the publicly stated wishes of his field commanders.  (Not that his Republican critics will give him much credit for doing so, of course.)  This is called "politics" in our country and, for a Democratic president in our era, Tuesday night's end result was remarkably predictable.



Yes, it's a phony surge (4.00 / 1)
and that is a good thing!

1) There will be less death, as US policy will stop the village-by-village strategy and mass in the big cities.

2) By announcing a withdrawal date, we will have more fence-sitters entering diplomacy: who wants to die on Monday to drive out an Army leaving on Friday?

3) We are shifting to the tactics Biden Plan / Chaosistan, while using the numbers of a "surge".

All of these and more will lead to "success" a lot sooner than 18 months from now. Obama will have the political cover to start a normal phased retirement of brigades from Afghanistan; at approximately 50% per year.

We are switching to the way the war in Afghanistan should have been fought from the beginning, letting Afghans be Afghans why we focus surgical attacks only on those groups with regional or global reach.


This is very interesting, and counter intuitive. (0.00 / 0)
Please write a larger diary on this.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
He can't go to a much higher number ... (0.00 / 0)
... because there were only about 50k deployable troops.  The only ways to go much higher would be to either end the Iraq war and send all the troops now in Iraq to Afghanistan, or else substantially enlarge the army.  Since the economy's so bad, this might be possible to do without a draft, but it would be hugely expensive.

I think that #3 is the closest to the truth, but I think that the way it came about was that Obama was afraid to stand against McCrystal's blatant political campaign.  The man should have been fired for insubordination.


There are 120000 troops sitting in Iraq. (4.00 / 1)
What the eff are they still doing there? He should sent two thirds of them home asap, and the other third to Afghanistan, if he's serious about withdrawal from Iraq and a surge in Afghanistan.

[ Parent ]
Agreed, the ground forces should move out three times as fast. (0.00 / 0)
I want parades celebrating the return and mustering out of thousands of troops. A parade a week.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
That would be great. No more "stop loss"! (0.00 / 0)
However, apart from having been against the Iraq madness from the very start, I also see a speedy complete Iraq withdrawal as a test case for Afghanistan. If Iraq doesn't manage to get along without foreign troops, Afghanistan has no chance. And Afghanistan is more important than Iraq.

[ Parent ]
The number of countries that are as dangerous to world peace as Afghanistans situation (0.00 / 0)
is pretty large. These same arguments could placed against any number of countries. AmadhiNejad stole his election with force and suppression, is a zealot and has a weapons of mass destruction building program.

Do we occupy Iran? Do we challenge China's goals, which use intimidation, slave labour, censorship and nationalism? We have to get a lot better at this.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Yup, but all those countries... (0.00 / 0)
..are in stable, uh, governments, as horrible as they may be. There's nothing the US can change about that, as long as they don't unexpectedly get into the mood for yet anohter war (which seems unlikely, bur we in the rest of the world have seen a fair share of US fliflopping in the past).

Afghanistan, however, is a different case. The Karzai government may not be popular, but a comfortable supermajority of Afghans at least acknoledge its accomplishments. And we shouldn't forget that the Afghans DID live in a not so bad republic until '77, when the Soviets thought it's a good idea to overturn it (which has to be seen as an agressive, but lsoign move in a match with the US, with the Afghans simply being a pawn). So, democracy really has a chance there, and since the citizen themselves see security as the most important problem, and Karzai isn't yet able to deliver it, I think it would be really foolish to leave now and give the Taliban a big chance to overrun that nation again. Especially since the Pakistanis are finally making progress in their offensive to get Taliban strongholds under control again.

Oh, and to counter the usual, amlmost inevitable argument that "safe havens" aren't important, pls read this new story in the NYT:

This sanctuary is critical because the Afghan war is organized and run out of Baluchistan. Virtually all significant meetings of the Taliban take place in that province, and many of the group's senior leaders and military commanders are based there. "The Taliban sanctuary in Baluchistan is catastrophic for us," a Marine told me on a recent trip to Afghanistan's Helmand Province, across the border from Baluchistan. "Local Taliban fighters get strategic and operational guidance from across the border, as well as supplies and technical components for their improvised explosive devices."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12...

See? Let's not forget it's not only about Afghanistan, but about Pakistan as well. And this is a nuke power. It wouldn't help the Pakistanis at all if they finally manage to drive the militant fundamentalists out of their country, only to see them capture another province right across the border, with the Karzai government being unable to do much about it. As I see it, there is some progress right now, politically and military, and it would be counterproductive to hasten withdrawal now and reduce pressure on the Taliban. Especially since the US haven't even completed their move out of Iraq yet, which should really happen before any serious decisions are made for Afghanistan.


[ Parent ]
The problem is that there is a portion of the population (0.00 / 0)
that is so against occupation and the devastation of war that they are willing to work with anyone to end it. So that repeated and ongoing military action drives recruiting.

Second, ther [placement of people who provide: "strategic and operational guidance from across the border, as well as supplies and technical components for their improvised explosive devices." can operate out of anywhere, including the famous "caves of Afghanistan" what is needed is a population that wants the insurrection to end, wants the war to end, sees greater good in farming and building and wants a non-corrupt government.

Something along the lines of "OK we are leaving, ok we won't support corruption and we are transparent about the corruption we know about, we ant to buy non opium based farmed goods from you, we are leaving we will help you build a real government with real elections."

If the added troops, as Goodman has cited/hoped elsewhere on this thread/post, stop killing people, increase population protection, treat attacks as "investigating an assault issues" and not as "kill the funeral participants in hope of getting the leaders too issue" we may be able to stop or slow recruiting.

I would think that the FIRST major announcement to the people of Afghanistan is: "We are leaving, starting in eighteen months time, help us build a non-corrupt government" - it might be listened to.


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Good insight into Obama's persona (0.00 / 0)
Excellent insight, I think, into Obama's persona.  I definitely see evidence of a narcissism that craves status, power and influence, maybe dough.

But I have to add - I think Obama is a neoliberal and The Oil and Natural Gas Carbon Death Squads Corpotocracias & the Mil.-Indust. Complex want us to have hegemony over the pipeline-through-rights (the pipelines) planned in Afghanistan to export natural gas from rich Caspian Sea area and to block China and Russia.  I believe I read this motive for Iraq as well, as Iraq's very considerable oil for plunder.


correction (0.00 / 0)
".,...as well as Iraq's very considerable oil for plunder."
 

[ Parent ]
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