Exploiting conservative character flaws and weaknesses

by: Daniel De Groot

Sat Dec 05, 2009 at 13:00


Digby writes admiringly of the move by several Democratic senators to surprise Sens Vitter and Coburn by co-sponsoring what they thought was a poison pill amendment to the Senate health care bill to require all members of Congress to enroll in the Public Option.  It's a brilliant bit of bluff calling.  The video clip she posts is enjoyable, Franken is proving worth the fight it took to get him there.  One of Digby's commenters captures what happened here perfectly:


Like many conservatives, Coburn and Vitter have internalized their cynicism and assume that others are similarly corrupt and selfish. It must astound them that liberals actually want to rely on the services they would have the government provide.

Not understanding and appreciating one's enemies leads to truly stupid mistakes like this.
Xenos | 12.04.09 - 10:47 pm | #

It is this sort of thing that liberals need to get better at.  

Daniel De Groot :: Exploiting conservative character flaws and weaknesses
Conservatives are very cynical, and the elected ones (being disproportionately double-high authoritarians) are quite often staggering hypocrites.  The thing is, they get to a point where they assume everyone else thinks like them too.  It's probably a psychological rationalization mechanism for immoral behaviour.  It's ok to be self-serving and double dealing because everyone else is too.  That sort of thing.

The trick here is to recognize these tendencies in conservatives and find ways to make them into weaknesses.  Too often over the past number of years, you find liberals lamenting the "circular firing squad" while grudgingly admiring the lock-step conservative façade and wishing to emulate it.  No. No. No.  

Liberals need to understand that the psychological differences they have with conservatives go beyond mere opinions or factual beliefs, but to issues of thinking style, temperament and even core personality traits.  There is ample psychological research that demonstrates that conservatives and liberals are not merely "flip sides of the same coin" like most centre-fetishizing village types believe.  Instead, there are deep asymmetries between the camps, and an awareness of that is vital to finding strategies that accent liberal strengths and exploit conservative weaknesses.

Rick Perlstein made this point awhile back and it immediately went in my bookmarks:


One of the things I was groping to express, I now realize-have been groping to express ever since-is that as ideological tendencies "left" and "right" are never symmetrical. Somehow "copying" the methods of one to deliver the other to glory is dumb. "Left" and "right" are not functions of each other but ontologically distinct categories (for an explication of this idea see here);

He provides a great example from LBJ's time that's worth reading too.  Yesterday's revealing episode of sociopaths assuming everyone else thinks like them is another good one to note.  More such are needed rather than yet another entreaty to emulate the worst aspects of authoritarianism and movement conservativism.  The left can't do the "everyone repeat the same talking point" thing, or the "let's all use the same loaded phrase" thing nor the "coordinated conniption over behaviour routinely seen on our side but unremarked" thing.  Those are tactics the right has perfected that work to their strengths.  We will get better at dealing with sanctimonious hissy fits by recognizing the right will always be better at staging them, and finding uniquely liberal responses.  

First though, a broad understanding of these different tendencies, that they exist at all and exist reliably enough to plan for.  They won't be universal, nothing is with humans, so predicting the behaviour of any one individual will be much harder.  They only have to be accurate often enough to catch up a Vitter here and Coburn there to be effective.  
 


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My summation (0.00 / 0)
Liberals and Conservatives look at each other in a different light.  Their ideas do not essentially oppose each other.

A conservative friend said succinctly,"Conservatives see liberals as those with bad ideas.  Liberals see conservatives as bad people."

As to Digby's commenter: "It must astound them that liberals actually want to rely on the services they would have the government provide."......Yes, I would vote myself a job and a raise.  Why not!

 

Conservative......CNN news:Nopenhagen: US PRES 2 WKS LATE ATTEND 1 DAY, GORE JOURNEY BY TRAIN.


See, I would flip that over (4.00 / 8)
I think most real-world conservatives I know aren't really that bad of people.  They genuinely believe that government interference in the economy is bad for all involved.  I just think all of their ideas are horrifically disastrous for the country, and hurt people in fundamental ways.

On the other hand, most Conservative rhetoric aggressively pushes the decadence of the left.  It's an effort to paint all of their opposition as the 'other' that must be held back to preserve 'our' way of life.  It seems like the conservatives are the ones painting the progressives as evil.  


[ Parent ]
This is the weakness exploitation thing. (0.00 / 0)
The weakness of the liberal is seeing that opposition to them as bad.  The next move as you say, conservatives simply point to those liberal ideas and counter with its' easier to maintain the status quo.  At that point they rely on the theory that the majority of the public is center right anyway.



Conservative......CNN news:Nopenhagen: US PRES 2 WKS LATE ATTEND 1 DAY, GORE JOURNEY BY TRAIN.


[ Parent ]
Clever abstract point against progressive unity ... (4.00 / 1)
... and an argument against progressives having any discipline at all.  Total lockstep unity is one thing.  But I insist that all Democrats oppose escalation in Afghanistan.  I insist that all Democrats support full abortion rights.  And if they don't, they should pay a price.  

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

take it that way if you will (4.00 / 2)
That's not the intent though.  Obviously parties need to have some amount of commonality to have any coherent meaning.  I don't know where the line is, just that I'm leery of admiring too much the lock step uniformity of the Republicans.

[ Parent ]
I will (0.00 / 0)
the Democrats already have "some amount."  They need a whole lot more amount around some serious principles.  Your point may be ageless, but at this point in our history, it is tactical opposition to more principled unity.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

[ Parent ]
right (4.00 / 2)
Even so far as that is a laudable goal (And I too have my limits for what I will tolerate as acceptable deviation from the party line, I supported the Liberman primary) - the question is how do you achieve it?

My argument here would be that the tactics the right uses to achieve this level of conformity won't work as well for the left.  They have all the high authoriarians, so the kinds of appeals that work on authoritarians don't do so well on liberals.


[ Parent ]
The Conservative Character and Personality is an Issue (4.00 / 3)
I do believe that conservatives' character and their personality is a very real issue. It's not a matter of ideology. It's their absolute faith in their ego, in their ego as the center of the social universe, to the exclusion of all others. They think any tool (lying, making stuff up, fomenting cheesy 'rebels') may legitimately be used to defend this ego from being affected by, touched by, or wounded by -- and especialy -- judged by someone else. Look at Palin's ire whenever that happens...

They can't take needling (and Obama is a master needler, by the way), and they cannot take it when someone does to them what they've done unto others (their dark umbrage at Alan Grayson, e.g.). I don't know about other people, but in my family, someone who could not take needling was considered someone devoid of 'character'.

And when they cannot stand the heat they demand that everyone else get out of the kitchen.

Lying, failing to take responsibility for their actions, blaming others for their failings. And covering it up with a mask of "holier than thou"ism.

Really, I've never seen such poor excuses for human beings as so-called conservative politicians turn out to be.


No problem (0.00 / 0)
Thanks for your illustrive comment, jjmm.

As in a previous post I said, Conservatives see liberals and having bad ideas, and Liberals see conservatives as bad people.


Conservative......CNN news:Nopenhagen: US PRES 2 WKS LATE ATTEND 1 DAY, GORE JOURNEY BY TRAIN.


[ Parent ]
You're worried too much (4.00 / 8)
About how rank and file liberals and conservatives see one another.  I'm talking about the leaders here.  Vitter and Coburn are not nice people with sincere ideas for the betterment of society that just don't work out well in real life.  The people voting for them may be, but that's not the core driving ethos of conservatism.

And plenty of conservatives do see liberals as bad people, hence the popularity of ideas like "limosine liberals" and "east coast elites", that they're atheists, godless, amoral, without values, there are dozens of conservative stereotypes and attacks on liberals that are full character assaults.


[ Parent ]
I don't know (0.00 / 0)
I don't know much about Colburn other than what some of his constituents tell me.  They are pretty abivilent about the guy.  Vitter zilch.

The first thing you learn in Judo or other marital arts is to get your opponent off balance.  This makes him easy to exploit.  Liberals that "hate" conservatives are easy to exploit because they are in general, off balanced by their thoughts.  

Yes, I know a lot of the terms conversatives use are character references also.  Such as "The Gorical, Left coast liberals, Chicken Little Liberals, etc.  They do this to get the immediate reactions from liberals.  It's done in the joke making process.

What does bother me is a growing body of talk to the effect of, "I don't know how a Democrat can be in Business."  Business is the lifeblood of us all.  If it were not for business we wouldn't have this forum.  Gee, I forgot,,,,,Gore invented the Internet, or so he said.

I gotta go cut some wood.  

Conservative......CNN news:Nopenhagen: US PRES 2 WKS LATE ATTEND 1 DAY, GORE JOURNEY BY TRAIN.


[ Parent ]
Gore never said that he invented the Internet (4.00 / 7)
and he would have been correct if he had.

Because it turns out that everything turns on how you define 'internet' and 'invent'. But understanding that requires something called 'nuance' which is not only a French word but something that gets ground up during that "joke making process".

'Internet' it turns out is not synonymous with Arpanet/Darpanet, UUNet, BitNet, NSFNET, or World Wide Web, various protocols and you can see the timeline under which each came to play their own part here from the Kleinrock thesis in 1962 to the chartering of ICAAN in 1998.:
http://www.greatachievements.o...

All in all that list of engineering and institutional development there seem to be only three political names mentioned:

"1986 Senator Gore proposes new legislation for using fiber-optic technology
Senator Albert Gore, of Tennessee, proposes legislation calling for the interconnection of the supercomputers centers using fiber-optic technology. "

"1987 High-speed national research network
NSF convenes the networking community in response to a request by Senator Gore to examine prospects for a high-speed national research network. Gordon Bell at NSF reports to the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy (OSTP) on a plan for the National Research and Education Network. Presidential Science Advisor Allan Bromley champions the high-performance computing and communications initiatives that eventually implement the networking plans."

But it is a lot easier to manufacture snark with that joke making process.


[ Parent ]
You've Got It EXACTLY Backwards (4.00 / 6)
The core belief of conservatism is elite rule--those who are worthy should rule over those who are not.  Whatever those who are worthy decide should be done--regardless of what the unworthy believe. Forms change, but this core belief abides.

Historically, conservatives have believed that absolute government is fine, with no restriction on the power of kings. ("The king can do no wrong.") They have believed in slavery.  They have believed in lynching. They have believed in the subjugation of women, etc., etc., etc. And they have believed that liberals are evil for standing up in support of all the untermenchen.

Heck, right now, conservatives can't even grasp what liberal ideas are, much less judge them as bad.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I guess that (0.00 / 0)
this goes to the early ideas of our founding fathers that we needed a Poll tax.  That is, only landholders could vote?

Conservative......CNN news:Nopenhagen: US PRES 2 WKS LATE ATTEND 1 DAY, GORE JOURNEY BY TRAIN.

[ Parent ]
No (4.00 / 1)
Your thinking is too fragmented.

Try C.B. MacPherson's classic, The Political Theory of Possessive Individualism: From Hobbes to Locke.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Got a cite for that? (4.00 / 6)
First of all a 'poll tax' is literally a 'head tax' and not a tax levied at an electoral poll. And the Constitution does not lay out property qualifications for voting although most of the colonies had such restrictions and those rules held for voting for the House of Representatives.

But universal white male suffrage early on became the norm, and there certainly were not Constitutional obstacles to that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J...

It seems that along with Mayor Wiseman all too many Conservatives operate out of a Constitution of their own imagination. Which is again characteristic of conservatism generally, it often harkens back to a Golden Age that never was whether that be the Happy Days 50s or the Merrie Olde England of the early British Tories and Whigs (in opposition to Liberals and Radicals)


[ Parent ]
One minor correction (0.00 / 0)
Whigs were Liberals. So were Radicals, although most Liberals were Whigs. Think of it as a Blue Dog/Progressive thing.

Otherwise, I agree entirely.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
Liberal Fascism (4.00 / 9)
Jonah Goldberg doesn't attack liberal ideas. He and his are convinced that every move towards economic and social justice is part of a secret plan to introduce totalitarianism. And this has been true of conservatism since at least the publication of Hayek's 'Road to Serfdom'. The argument is rarely that good intentions lead to bad outcomes, but that all those stated intentions are simply subterfuges disguising our real one. Which is nothing more than suppressing Liberty itself.

"Oh sure liberals SAY they are concerned about civil rights, or the environment, or freedom of speech but what they are REALLY about is subverting the values, economy, culture of the Good Ol' USA."

No one can look at a Tea-Bag Rally and the signs that are being carried and give any kind of credence to your "bad idea/bad people" dichotomy. Since the 1920s and perhaps before the Right has been demonizing the Left as just being a bunch of pointed headed intellectual, debauched, dirty, urban, free loving, atheistic, sodomizing race mixers simply out to corrupt the pure culture of Italy/Germany/France/Middle America. Oh and yes they want your children.

In Britain this counteract first came in the form of "King and Church Mobs" while in Germany it was among other things expressed as "Kinder, Kirche, Kuchen" but the basic them remains the same: scratch an urban liberal and you find a dirty Christ-killer. Conservatism tends to look at liberalism as a toxic cesspool and liberals as willing bathers in it. The claim that this view doesn't come dressed in moralistic clothing is just selective vision of the history of liberalism and democracy generally since at least the French Revolutionary War. The Reaction ALWAYS came accompanied by denunciations of moralists wearing clerical collars separating Good Germans and Good Americans from the Other.

Maybe conservatives don't see liberals as "bad people" per se, they do see us generically as big sinners bound for an eternity in hell fire.
_____________________

And I don't think liberals by and large think of conservative FOLLOWERS as "bad people" as opposed to their leadership. Fat headed sheep convinced that being part of a big herd following the Judas Goat into the the slaughter house will protect them? Well yes, that is closer to the mark. Because almost every liberal has a relative or acquaintance that subscribes to 'Perino Logic', ten million sheep moving in the same direction can't possibly be wrong


[ Parent ]
I enjoy your comments. (0.00 / 0)
I have visited your webpage and have seen your pic.  I especially have been interested in your Social Security knowledge.

Thanks for the correction on the Poll Tax.  It would be a poll or head count.  I did remember the outlines of a landholders right to vote.  I thought that this also had some ramafcations with slave holding too.  I really don't remember it being in the constitution.  I'm no scholar of the constitution.  

My view of Jonah Goldberg, et al. at NRO is that his approach is intellectually lazy.  Others on the staff command a little more respect.

As far as I can remember about Gore's influence on the internet was that your quoted legislation affected Internet II.  This was the highspeed service between learning facilities.

I have no qualms about removing the leadership in the "Rethuglcan" party.  It's not impressive and hasn't been going anywhere anyway.

Conservative......CNN news:Nopenhagen: US PRES 2 WKS LATE ATTEND 1 DAY, GORE JOURNEY BY TRAIN.


[ Parent ]
Goldberg et. al. (4.00 / 2)
Need an idealized past to psychologically and emotionally deal with the ambiguity of the present.  Conservatives, remember, "stand athwart history, yelling Stop," in Buckley's immortal phrase.  A neat trick seeing as how it's impossible.  Therefore, they must find somewhen to fantasize over.

It's not laziness, per se, towards evidence gathering but a selective reading of the evidence.  


[ Parent ]
Thanks for the Soc Sec props (4.00 / 2)
But no that legislation does not apply to Internet II which is something that is still conceptual. If you examine the Internet timeline you can see that prior to 1986 it was primarily conceived as as a communication and data exchange mechanism primarily for academic, governmental and industrial researchers primarily in computer science itself.
http://www.greatachievements.o...

It really was Gore and his pushing the concept of "The Information Superhighway" from his perch as Chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee that jump started the idea of taking this from the Universities to the People.

Did Gore invent the Internet or even the idea of the Internet? Well no. But if he hadn't pushed for the development of NSFNET Bernal-Lee wouldn't have had the backbone to hang his WWW on, and Andreesson and Bina wouldn't have had the incentive to develop the Mosaic browser which really was what "started it all". But Gore really was ahead of them all in seeing the potential. And prior to the WWW and Mosaic you really can't say that the Internet in the sense we talk about 'the Net' today really existed,.


[ Parent ]
Remembering (0.00 / 0)
While I was out cutting wood....No firewoo no warm, 100% correlation, I recalled that I was on the internet well before 1987.  I do remember that it was all text and very arcane at that.  I had assumed the the Internet II had become functional in that the record companies were sueing some student use of it to download music. The big push was the use of fiber optics.  This made broadband possible in that an entire broadcast spectrum was available with just 1 pair of fibers.  The big thing was to keep it "dark fiber" without switches being put in by the telephonic industry.

Conservative......CNN news:Nopenhagen: US PRES 2 WKS LATE ATTEND 1 DAY, GORE JOURNEY BY TRAIN.

[ Parent ]
"demand that everyone else get out of the kitchen" (0.00 / 0)
Ha, I like that.

[ Parent ]
I Wrote About Related Issues This Week At TPM Cafe (0.00 / 0)
I was part of the book discussion there, and authoritarian/non-authoritarian polarization was the core issue at stake.

I'll have more to say in a diary later today.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


Nothing to do with ideology (0.00 / 0)
The prime difference between Congressional Dems and GOP as demonstrated since 1994 - perfectly illustrated by the Coburn/Vitter stunt - has had nothing particular to do with ideology: the GOPs act like an insurgency and the Dems act like the powers-that-be.

And that is largely informed by the fact that, before 1994, the Dems had decades of almost unbroken majorities, most of them big; and, since, the GOP have had, at best tiny majorities.

Ideologically, both parties are pretty close, essentially two wings of the Corporate Party. Each pays lip service to its activists and gives them the odd largely symbolic victory.

But the legislative product demonstrates overwhelmingly that the business of the Congress, like American, is business.  


we're not talking about parties (0.00 / 0)
But I don't follow your establishment/insurgency metaphor in this example.  Vitter and Coburn act like insurgents in trying to stick a spoke in the wheels of the health care bill by demanding that the PO apply to legislators.  But the "establishment" liberals respond by saying "great idea, let's do it" - the analogy breaks down.  If they're the establishment, shouldn't they play to form and splutter and gasp over the Republican ploy to expose their hypocrisy?


[ Parent ]
The liberals (0.00 / 0)
The liberal thinking might go like this:

This amendment will be stripped out immediately in joint conference.

We will give these two credit for the amendment and show that there was Republican input to the final senate bill.



Conservative......CNN news:Nopenhagen: US PRES 2 WKS LATE ATTEND 1 DAY, GORE JOURNEY BY TRAIN.


[ Parent ]
You are assuming there is hypocrisy (0.00 / 0)
I suggest you are validating the point in my comment below, conservatives simply don't believe in change and can't grasp that people in charge actually value directed change. The analogy doesn't break down, you just have a blinkered understanding of what 'establishment' means. And perhaps it is not the best word, that Democrats are in control does not mean they think of themselves as fixed in stone, power doesn't always get expended thickening the walls of the castle, sometimes you use it to take the fight to the enemy. As here.

[ Parent ]
Not sure I follow (0.00 / 0)
(I don't think there is hypocrisy, that wasn't clear in what i said, just speaking from the Republican POV in that phrasing)

So you agree with Skeptic's point that this is an establisharian thing to do, for the dems to hop along with the Vitter Amendment?  

Not so sure I agree re: change in the abstract.  Conservatives would dance in the street if social security was repealed.  They would dearly love to return to the malthusian/hobbsian state of survivors and prey.  


[ Parent ]
The final vote hasn't yet happened (0.00 / 0)
It may be the case that Senators have gotten themselves too far out on a limb, and this amendment will be approved by a nearly unanimous margin. But this a far from a foregone conclusion, and it will be interesting to see just who votes for and against it.

Some Dems, maybe even most Dems would probably prefer to vote against it. I'll wager that all GOPers would prefer to vote against it. They were counting on voting yes on the basis their votes would not be enough for passage. I think it is also clear that some Dems, maybe many Dems, (certainly Franken) think it is the right and democratic thing to do.

Once it is approved, I think that it would be politically difficult for the House to strip it from the bill, although I agree that that is also not a foregone conclusion.


[ Parent ]
Why would Dems vote against? (4.00 / 1)
Even if CBO is right the amount of extra premiums in the PO is likely to be minimal, particularly is like Congress you are in a generous overall system to begin with. Congressmen by and large and Senators without exception has resources to purchase any supplemental insurance they would need to backfill any perceived weakness in coverage through the PO (and I don't particularly see what those would be), moreover they already have supplementary care available from the Office of the Attending Physician right there in the Capital.

And Aetna showed there true colors yesterday, they don't like the margins they get by actually insuring people who might actually get sick and plan to purge 660,000 people from their roles.

CBOs projections of enrollment in the PO seem to me based on the belief that insurance companies are really interested in competing for volume by competing on price. Aetna's move yesterday (or the day before) kind of puts some doubt in that formulation. Republicans seem to have mesmerized themselves with their own Death Panel imagery and nightmares about 9 month waits for cancer surgery in that socialist hell-hole Canada. Well to update the saying "The plural of Bachmann and NRO hysterical anecdote ain't data" either. I get that some doctors prefer not to take new Medicaid or Medicare patients but if the situation was so dire as many on the right claim, then Medicare would not have the approval numbers it has.


[ Parent ]
Privilege (4.00 / 1)
Since the Senate can be reasonably called the most exclusive club in the US, I assume that many, if not most members want to retain their privileges, and resist moves dilute them. We may object to this frame of mind and think it unfair, but Senators did not rise to these positions by being accommodating or even fair. This is why the I believe the amendment in question rubs most of them the wrong way.

I was not aware of Aetna's decision, and thank you for making me aware of it. My first reaction is that the insurance companies must be very confident of the failure of the PO, and maybe even the entire health bill, if they are willing to pull something so obviously profit-motivated at this time. I have not thought through the other implications of this, but it sure seems like good evidence in support of why a PO, or iron-clad regulation, is essential.


[ Parent ]
Not really (0.00 / 0)
My impression is that Dem MCs stunt less; the sort of chutzpah that an MC needs to stunt is more typical of an insurgent than a member of the establishment.

(Franken, I'd have thought. would be a natural stunter (with his professional expertise); but - again, my impression - he seems to have been restraining himself, fitting in with the mores of his group (as well as avoiding excessive freshman exposure). This time, Coburn and Vitter have pretty much given him cover to stunt.)

So far as I can see, there hasn't been any reaction from Team Harry to the fun and games; after all, we're only at the stage of adding sponsors. And I'm not clear the amendment will ever hit the floor - I can't see many senators, GOP or Dem, wanting to cast a vote on it.

Probably it'll remain just a stunt.


[ Parent ]
Conservatism and the Golden Age (that never was) (4.00 / 2)
Conservatism as it name itself implies is all about holding on to what you have in the face of change which in turn is associated with decline. Morality and authority is always in the Conservative mind behind and above and in the hands of the Ancestors. Conservatism was not initially opposed to Liberalism but instead to Modernity, the idea that there was some virtue in being Now, and even more in progressing to the Future.

It is the difference between the Renaissance, literally the re-birth, where the model for everything from morals to architecture were found in the past and particularly in Classical Greece. (Which explains in part why Conservatives are drawn to architectural columns), and the Enlightenment, the entry of new insight and the newish concept of Progress, itself marked by the image of the Pygmy standing on the Shoulder of Giants (attributed to Newton).

So exploring the authoritarian/non-authoritarian divide is crucially important but does not really get to the root. Conservatism looks back and is by nature Reactive, Enlightenment Modernism looks forward and is by nature Utopian and devoted to Progress.

That Conservatism became associated with Authoritarianism was from this perspective more or less an accident of historical timing, the latter Middle Ages being largely marked by increased centralization of power of power around Popes and Bishops on one side and Emperors, Kings and Princes on the other with Abbots and small Lords being displaced, a process which by the Enlightenment had been in progress for maybe 500 years and so long enough to represent the ideal past always looked to by Conservatives.

But as subsequent history has shown there has been plenty of Authoritarianism associated with Modernism, Utopians being all to willing to adopt Five Year Plans and Great Leap Forwards. Similarly Conservatives never entirely let go of Libertarianism, with the British Parliament hearkening back to the Anglo-Saxon Witangemoot and the American Constitution explicitly modeled on a combination of Athenian Democracy (the House) and  the Roman Republic (the Senate).

So old vs new. Conservation vs change. Tradition vs discovery. Conservative vs Modern. Decline vs Progress. Golden Age vs Utopia. Somewhere in that nexus is the divide we are looking for with issues of liberty, freedom and authority floating somewhat uneasily above, with never a perfect correspondence.
_________________
The above drifted from the point of the post. But it may give some insight into contemporary conservative character. Nothing is more threatening to the Conservative mind than 'Change we can believe in' because if my stated framework is even close to the reality conservatives don't believe in change period.


The Most Interesting of (4.00 / 2)
Prof. Altemeyer's simulations was the one where everybody was an Right Wing Authoritarian.  Basically they sat around, doing nothing, and let the world collapse.  IIRC, the final result was the entire world was dead by the end of the simulation.  

Without Social Dominates to order them around RWAs are more likely to go hide in the corner then get out and try to do something.  


[ Parent ]
I thought (4.00 / 2)
They were all fascinating.  The world of the double-high authoritarians was a nightmare, and the world of the low-authoritarians was operational liberalism stumbling toward progress.  

[ Parent ]
Hubris always leads to stupidity. (4.00 / 1)
These heinous elitist narcissists, just like the dirty thirty who voted to protect corporations against rape victims who work for contractor corporations, are just plain dumb oxes. The villagers think they are entitled.  

They only call it class war when we fight back.

oh (4.00 / 1)
That's another good one.  Franken really does know how to catch them up.  I think he must have read his own books.

[ Parent ]
Interesting Discussion (4.00 / 1)
I had a rather conservative (although after the disaster of Bush II he calls himself a libertarian) friend of mine email me the link to Flemming's web page where one can sign a on-line petition to support  the resolution.  I chuckled as I examined the link because it certainly looked like a resolution I would support, and most real progressives in Congress would support.

Both he and I have very similar backgrounds, both engineers, and both rather cynical about DC.  Watching DC bail out Wall St was a horrific experience for both of us.  He readily acknowledges that government, in general, is out to screw the little guy, but for some reason he remains committed to supporting conservatives and conservative ideology.

I remain puzzled by the large amount of people I know who are similar to my friend.  I rationalize much of it as almost all being long time listeners to talking heads like Rush, Hannity and O'Reilly, and disciples of Reaganism.  These talking heads have tapped into a deep seated cynicism with being screwed by large government, but with the perception that the progressives are the one's out to screw them.

I wonder why now is not the opportune time to have a Democratic version of the "Reagan Revolution".  Never has the hypocrisy of screwing the little guy been on more open display in our government.  Why haven't the Democrats come out more strongly for supporting the middle class and wenching power back from the "ruling plutocracy" that has destroyed our country over the last thirty years?  Why aren't we actively recruiting the large amount of people who are not dumb and can plainly see how conservatives have screwed America?


Progressives could have some possibilities here. (0.00 / 0)
The government will screw the middle class because its members include two groups.  The group that aspires to a higher class and is working towards it.  The other group is the one that doesn't want to fall into the unemployed economic lower class.  This is where the largest amount of tax money will be taken.

Mostly progressive need a plan and need to stick with it.  This is the core of the Conservatives.  If you are just against something, you have no plan.  Thus you will attract followers for a while but not enough long term folks to make a difference.

Conservative......CNN news:Nopenhagen: US PRES 2 WKS LATE ATTEND 1 DAY, GORE JOURNEY BY TRAIN.


[ Parent ]
More importantly, (4.00 / 2)
WOULDN'T the Democrats come out more strongly for supporting the middle class if they were GENUINELY advocates for them and not part of the pro-plutocracy Establishment?

[ Parent ]
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