Authenticity first--honoring & promoting liberal/non-authoritarian strengths-Part 1

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Dec 06, 2009 at 11:00


A funny thing happened on the way to today.  I wrote a diary yesterday, "Crossing & double-crossing the authoritarian/non-authoritarian divide ", asking folks how we make the most of liberal strengths, and promising to integrate the results of the discussion into a diary about the new book, Authoritarianism and Polarization in American Politics.  But a couple of comments in the diary really reached out and refocused my attention in a way that I need to reflect on first.  In fact, they have very much to do with the core of liberal strength, as I'll describe below, but they suggested a different constellation of connections than I had originally been thinking about.

Here's what smcclurk said:

Focus

It seems to me that the problem with our side isn't necessarily fighting. It is faith. Not in a religious sense, but in the sense of believing in your ideals even when things look darkest. Too many on our side doubt too quickly. They give up because they start thinking too much about how things could possibly go wrong. We forget too readily that possible is not probable. What I saw as a hopeful sign last year was that many in the Democratic party decided to finally believe that things we believe in can win. That's why Obama's win was so powerful. Not necessarily because he's the first black president, but because of the months that preceded it. All of our history and all of the pundits kept reiterating with such uninformed self-evidence that a black man couldn't win. We decided to believe that he could and it happened, even in spite of all the obstacles thrown in the way. That didn't happen in 2004. We decided to follow Kerry based on calculations that he could win, not because we believed in him. We "brilliantly" calculated that a Vietnam War Vet would be able to take down the Pretender in Chief. But we didn't believe in him. We could have gone with Dean because we believed in his message but were too afraid he wouldn't win. And that's what is destroying us right now. Our leadership could choose to believe in the Public Option or even Single Payer and fight for it all the way, but they keep choosing to follow the path they think is "smarter" and "more achievable," but which is really more cowardly. We need to have more courage of faith.

And here's what Querent wrote in response/amplification:

Good comment

I tend to think of this in terms of authenticity, which was the way Jean Paul Sartre framed it, or rather the larger issue which includes it.  In order to be authentically human, we must openly act as what we really are, and all of our actions, including our political behavior, must be true to the part of what we are which we choose to affirm. Otherwise our activity will be self-defeating, because our actions will not carry the self-investment and conscious efficacy which those which express our aspirational selves can.

My thoughts on the flip.

Paul Rosenberg :: Authenticity first--honoring & promoting liberal/non-authoritarian strengths-Part 1
What really reoriented my plan was the combination of two different things, which certainly don't exhaust what these comments had to say:  First, smcclurk powerfully reminds us--in the midst of very deep disappointment, even anger at what Obama has done with his second mass escalation in Afghanistan--why the Obama candidacy genuinely was a great step forward for us, even if it wasn't everything it was ballyhooed to be.  Second, Querent's reference to Sartre and being "authentically human" provides a very simply put, but quite profound grounding for everything that is before us to discuss and to do.

We do not always have the option of doing the ideal thing, but we can honestly engage in a partial step that sets us on the right path, or even just a better path, provided we remain guided by and committed to the destination that itself is "true to the part of what we are which we choose to affirm".  It is how we can partake in the compromised process of politics as we find it, without being of  that process.  And of course, actually doing that is a hell of a lot more difficult than simply saying it.  It is all too easy to convince oneself that one is still true to one's ideals as one trades them all away.  So remaining engaged critically, being challenged, as well as challenging others, is absolutely vital, otherwise we are almost certain to lose our way, convincing ourselves we have not strayed from our own authentic selves.

One thing that these two comments made me think of was a post by Digby this week, one of the few times I really feel at odds with her--even though I think she has a point, I also think she misses something quite important--something that smcclurk captured perfectly.

Digby wrote:

Fergawdsake

by digby

I can excuse some college kid for this but it is completely absurd coming from a man of Tom Hayden's age and experience:

    Tom Hayden, the liberal activist best known for his work in the 60's, when he helped found Students for a Democratic Society, was once pretty enthusiastic about Barack Obama. Back in March of 2008 he had the first byline on an article in the Nation -- also attributed to Bill Fletcher Jr., Danny Glover and Barbara Ehrenreich -- that began, "All American progressives should unite for Barack Obama."

    Now, though, after the president announced his decision to send an additional 30,00 troops to fight in Afghanistan, Hayden's had enough. His latest piece for the Nation begins with a very different sentiment than the one he expressed not two years ago. Now, Hayden says, "It's time to strip the Obama sticker off my car."

Hayden's fanboy endorsement was an embarrassment of giddy projection even at the time.  But there were a lot of people who were caught up in campaign fever on all sides so he wasn't unique.  To have a fit and claim "betrayal" because Obama is fulfilling his campaign promise to send more troops to Afghanistan, however, is just puerile....

Of course, I never endorsed Obama, because I never joined in the sort of projection Digby talks about, which I was quite aware of at the time.  And I remained very skeptical that Obama was more of an anti-war candidate than Clinton, Edwards or anyone else, just because he gave a provisionally anti-war speech as a state senator.  I was much more concerned by what a go-along-to-get-along sort he had been in his brief tenure as a US Senator.

And yet, I had found Hayden's argument for Obama the most persuasive of any I heard--his argument in support of the movement that supported Obama.  You know the movement I'm talking about--the one that Obama dissolved immediately upon winning the election.  I always knew that it would be tricky getting that movement to take Obama farther than he wanted to go.  That's what happened with JFK, the politician I've repeatedly said Obama seemed to resemble most.  But Kennedy was far more specific in what he stood for than Obama was, and there were vast differences between the nation then and now.  Still, it seemed there was some possibility, and smcclurk has described the logic of it better than I could have myself.

Recall my recent diary, "Open Left:: Naomi Klein nails brand 'Obama'".  I quote Klein at length from her Democracy Now! interview, including this key passage:

And I'm afraid, I think, that that's where Obama fits in, that he really is a super brand on line with many of the companies that I discuss in No Logo. And he has many of the same problems as the companies that I discuss in No Logo, like Nike and Apple and all of these-Starbucks-all of these, sort of 1990s, sort of, lifestyle brands that co-opted many of the, you know-the iconography of the transformative political movements like the civil rights movement, the women's movement. And that was really the hallmark of 1990s branding.

One of the things in this-you know, a large part what I write about in No Logo is the absorption of these political movements into the world of marketing. And, you know, the first time I saw the "Yes, We Can" video that was produced by Will.i.am, my first thought was, you know, "Wow. A politician has finally produced an ad as good as Nike that plays on our, sort of, faded memories of a more idealistic era, but, yet, doesn't quite say anything." We think we hear the message we want to hear, but if you really parse it, the promises aren't there, it's really the emotions.

And, you know, I think that that explains in some sense the paralysis in progressive movements in the United States where we think, Obama stands for something because we-our emotions were activated on these issues, but we don't really have much to hold him to because, in fact, if you look at what he said during the campaign, like any good super brand, like any good marketer, he made sure not to promise too much, so that he couldn't be held to it.

What's good about the Afghanistan escalation is precisely that it's a wakeup call.  Before, it was possible to think that Obama believed in what he projected, but was just being smart in marketing himself in the commercial language of the day--or better yet, allowing, even encouraging others to do so for him.  It was possible to say, "Well, he'd like to do better, but he's constrained."  I didn't buy these arguments at all.  The fact that he never seriously considered using his mass base to pressure Snowe and Collins on the Stimulus was all the proof I needed--and more--that he was an insider true believer, not the man he sold himself as.  From then on, my only hope had been that reality would give him a wakeup call that he needed to at least partially be who he had pretended to be simply for his own political well-being.

No dice. No dice. No dice.

That was the message he repeatedly sent after that.  That was the message he screamed with his Afghanistan escalation speech.

And so now we know.  

But smcclurk's comment remains all the truer for it:

We could have gone with Dean because we believed in his message but were too afraid he wouldn't win. And that's what is destroying us right now. Our leadership could choose to believe in the Public Option or even Single Payer and fight for it all the way, but they keep choosing to follow the path they think is "smarter" and "more achievable," but which is really more cowardly. We need to have more courage of faith.

Obama needs to have more courage of faith.  He needs to actually believe in not fighting dumb wars.  Because  Afghanistan is not WWII.  Afghanistan is not the Civil War.  And everyone this side of Versailles knows that as plain as they know 2+2=4.

I'll have much more to say broadening out from here in part 2 later on.


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Sartre's authenticity call (4.00 / 8)
is what the hacks want to extinguish when they sneer at any hint of "Here I stand, I can do no other".

This is sniffed at as "purity". (I never thought I'd see being impure implicitly called the right way to be.)

But it's true that many of us have no choice but to fight for what's right and necessary regardless of the political vagaries of the moment.

And I've argued that this is not just principled but also politically more effective, because only then are the best people fighting at the peak of their energies, instead of having to tangle themselves up in all kinds of wretched, unnatural self-censorship and self-compromise.

Morale is one of the most potent warrior forces. All of history proves this. It generates its own sense of freedom, its own creative thinking, its own energy and momentum.

Meanwhile self-crippling, self-limitation, putting on blinders to avoid looking at the horizon, earmuffs to avoid hearing the music, setting the bar low, doing all of this without even trying to fight, pre-setting the bar low, and then caving in even on that, does the exact opposite.

Yet all this seems utterly incomprehensible to the process/technocrat mentality.

Unfortunately it looks as if the entire Dem establishment including Obama is both corporatist and utterly committed to "process".

How did all that grassroots energy get Astroturfed in the end? I had a Show Me attitude and was never one of the faithful, so I don't know how it was with them. I guess they were all just passively waiting to be told what to do from on high?

If so, there's another problem. No grassroots worthy of the name can be fired by anything other than its own unco-optable bottom-up energy and agenda, nourished by its own soil.

http://attempter.wordpress.com


Amen! (4.00 / 3)
The stupidity of the current Dem establishment is so vast and multifaceted, it is truly 11-dimensional.

Any resemblance to chess, however, is entire hallucinatory.

In their view, passion and commitment are the enemy.  And they are passionately committed to fighting any signs of either.

As for your last point, it's a good one.  But it's not so bad if you don't think about it in grand sweeping abstractions. A lot of folks with previous authentic grassroots experience were involved in the Obama campaign, and added considerably to their skill sets and contacts.  As the illusion wears off, and they start thinking about what to do, they will not be incapable of drawing on something deeper than what they were exposed to on the campaign.

That's hardly everyone, of course.  But it's a pretty decent beginning.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
"The stupidity of the current Dem establishment" (0.00 / 0)
Dems are rewarded by the uber-establishment for this stupidity. The establishment has created an ecosystem in Washington of punishments and rewards - a Skinner Box that gives the rats pellets of food for demoralizing their base and little electric shocks for being effective. Just ask Howard Dean, the dorky centrist who dared to be effective.

As Russ stated so perfectly above: "Sartre's authenticity call is what the hacks want to extinguish."

That's why the establishment, from Karl Rove to James Carville, were shitting their collective pants over Dean in 2003. Their collective relief was palpable when Kerry got the nomination. The establishment frenzy over Dean's moment of untelegenic exuberence know as "the scream" was surreal and obscene.

We may have to settle for whatever scraps we can fight for, but we don't have to pretend to like it, or pretend that the whole system is not a big corrupt pile of shit, or that the weasels in the Senate are "doing the best they can" or that we have any intention of settling for this crap in the long term.

"Sartre's authenticity call is what the hacks want to extinguish."
Authenticity is what we must embrace. No apologies. Get in their face and call out the bullshit.

miasmo.com


[ Parent ]
I don't understand this (4.00 / 3)
Obama needs to have more courage of faith.  He needs to actually believe in not fighting dumb wars.  Because  Afghanistan is not WWII.  Afghanistan is not the Civil War.  And everyone this side of Versailles knows that as plain as they know 2+2=4.

A few paragraphs above, you said:

...all the proof I needed--and more--that he was an insider true believer, not the man he sold himself as.

smcclurk and Sarte were both saying that we need to be authentic and believe that we can be effective, not that Obama should do it for us. Our strength is us, not him. If we work hard, stand up strong, and push Obama then, with luck, we'll be able to move Obama to act the way that is good for our society (as well as good for Obama and the Democrats to get re-elected).

I thought that is what you were arguing, but your last paragraph seems to contradict this.


I Could Have Been Clearer (4.00 / 2)
Only excuse--I was writing against the clock.

I honestly don't know WTF Obama thinks. I'm no mindreader.  I can only infer from the most probable reading of his actions (and his words, viewed as actions--"speech acts" if you will).

So what I'm trying to say is that we need to force him to take his own rhetoric seriously.\

I honestly don't believe that it makes much sense to expect authenticity from politicians--especially when they get to the presidential level.  As a realist, all you want is for them to fake the right things.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
My Guess (4.00 / 2)
My guess is the "faith" angle is probably a good one for thinking about Obama as well.  I'm no mind reader, either, but it seems all of Obama's impulsive, off-the-cuff remarks (rare as they are) are from the liberal perspective.  From stupid actions by cops to "what do you think stimulus is?"

But he has a stronger belief in expertise and consensus, which in one way is still liberal but in the most important ways dominated by Beltway Conventional Wisdom, insiders and all the currently powerful.  He seems to have no real faith that his own personal point of view is special, correct or worth fighting for.  Again, kind of liberal on one level...

I think this only proves what was already correct, anyway.  We must fight to change conventional wisdom.

For Obama himself, proxy fights are a good strategy.  Go after Geithner, Summers, the military establishment, etc., more than Obama.  Keep it framed as a matter of bad advice.  In the case of Obama, this might even be factually correct as well as what would still be a reasonable approach when your side is linked so strongly to someone not on your side.


[ Parent ]
Good Points (0.00 / 0)
The problem is, it's the wrong kind of liberal.  The process-heavy liberal.  The reason radicals like me exist is to counter this sort of liberal (who gets on very well with conservatives who kick his butt) and build up substantive liberals.

Now go read my Dollhouse diary!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
My Thoughts (4.00 / 3)
Actually, I'm arguing what both of you have written. They are not mutually exclusive. We as Liberals need to stop vesting our faith in men, but in our ideals. The reason why we won was because we believed in our ideals, we chose to believe that because Obama was the better candidate who represented our ideals, that he would win. That after the Bush Travesty, after always succumbing to conventional wisdom, common bromides, and stupid superstitions (if the Redskins win the football game the weekend before the election the opponent wins), that we might as well release ourselves from these fears and just believe we will win. We decided to believe in ideals that empowered us, not cynical calculations. We decided to stand by the principles we hold dear (that govt is a solution to some problems, that the rich should pay more, that we should clean up our environment and rebuild our infrastructure)because it feels better to be ourselves rather than pretend to be what we think the public wants to hear. Just as Querent quoted from Sartre. Obama was just the focal point of this. His physical being only served to crystallized these dormant but stirred up feelings within us. Much as he liked to say last year, it is about us. However, Obama seems to have forgotten this or even worse, seems not to realize this. He and Rahm and the Blue Dogs seem to think that all of their calculations and manipulations will work the wonders that they never have for us in the past. What was won by faith will not be kept by fear-filled calculation.

[ Parent ]
How Are You Arguing With Me, Though? (0.00 / 0)
I just don't see it, as I'm in total agreement with what you've written.  Not only that, but I think you've put it remarkably well.

Of course, I don't always express myself as I wish to (terrible thing for a writer to admit--but a worse thing to deny), and no one sees their own flaws as well as others do, so I'm asking this with a genuine interest in hearing what you have to say.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
LOL (0.00 / 0)
I'm sorry, I meant to say agreeing. LOL

[ Parent ]
Okay! (0.00 / 0)
But you're going to have to pay me for that. I've got a patent on that sort of screw-up!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Sartre? How about Hegel? (4.00 / 2)
Our politicians aren't warriors, they're used-car salesmen. They think that they've figured out a way to win all the time. They understand very well that as soon as you take a position -- any position -- the dialectic draws a bead on you. When that happens, you either win or you lose, and you can never predict which it will be.

Being largely in the business of ME, they prefer the predictable. Decades of conventional wisdom have convinced them that advertising and propaganda are a science, while conveniently avoiding mention of the costs of deploying such a science in the real world. They therefore devote most of their time and energy to manipulating people, not with the aim of accomplishing anything in particular, but in an attempt to neutralize any conceivable threat to their own political immortality. This, sadly, is what passes for clever. The hell-in-a-handbasket factor doesn't impress them, largely because its effects are always deferred -- après moi le déluge, as an early practitioner put it -- and because it won't be borne by them or their heirs when it does catch up with us.


Hegel? WTF Do These Jokers Know About Hegel? (4.00 / 2)
Dan Draper (of Mad Men) knows more about Hegel than they do.

Yes, they are in the business of ME.  You are on much firmer ground there.  And Dan Draper knows more about that, too, even though he's 46 years in the past.

Believe it or don't, the Dems were once the party that knew how to do advertising and PR!  It ended soon after the Mad Men time-frame.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The need to know (4.00 / 3)
They don't need to know anything about Hegel; all they need to know, or more accurately, to believe -- is that the weasel survives where the lion doesn't. It's all about escaping consequences for them, Paul, or about neutralizing them. If Hegel understood anything that they don't understand, it's that you can't escape the consequences.

Advertising would have been fine, had it only been about getting the word out. As a substitute for the hard choices which reality requires, Paul, it simply delays the inevitable.


[ Parent ]
Hegel would label that approach a synthesis (4.00 / 1)
destined for its own antithesis.  The dialectic can only be stopped at noesis

[ Parent ]
Hegel Was An Ass (4.00 / 1)
A productive ass, in that he at least tried to introduce some realism--the reality of change--into philosophy.

But the idealist tradition of treating grand abstractions as if they were real things?

Come on!

Ultimately that turned out to be one of the central flaws of Marxism, materialist though it was.  It quite properly rejected the primacy of mind over matter, but couldn't rid itself of the dominance of grand abstractions.  And that dominance, in turn, not only warped the analysis of serious thinkers--like Marx himself--it also empowered the most monstrous crimes in its name.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
True, but irrelevant (0.00 / 0)
Hegel wasn't an ass; he just came early on in the attempt to make some sense of the political dimension of that internal-external duality which we're still wrestling with. Crimes were committed in the name of the resultant abstractions, yes.

The idea though, that modern neuroscience solves -- or rather can solve -- this problem, which I know from previous diaries of yours is an idea which tickles your fancy, is very likely in my opinion to become the de facto sponsor of crimes which will prove equally spectacular in retrospect, if ever we get to the point that we're looking back on them.

I think you're trying to shoot the messenger here. It's a bad precedent to set, if you don't mind my saying so, for someone who spends so much time thinking out loud. By which I mean, of course, that anyone's ass can be bitten, if he lets it hang out in public. We do it anyway, though, don't we? Rightly or wrongly, we think it's important to do so, even knowing the risk of being denounced as a fool, or as a nattering nabob of negativism.


[ Parent ]
Two Points (4.00 / 1)
First: My comment re Hegel is perhaps best illuminated by Walter Kaufmann's situating of him in Discovering the Mind Volume 1: Goethe, Kant, and Hegel.  I don't recall Kaufmann's exact words, but basically he argued that Hegel was trying to synthesize the living reality of Goethe with the analytical framework of Kant.  To my mind, this was the starting point of the foolishness that ended up as I described.

Second:  I don't believe that modern neuroscience solves this problem.  I don't believe that science of any sort solves political problems of any sort.  The best it does is give us tools.  It's up to us to use them wisely.  We're the ones who have to solve the problems for ourselves.  No escape from freedom. No escape from responsibility.

"My homework made me do it!" is no better than "The dog are my homework!"

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Fair enough (0.00 / 0)
I agree completely with your second point, especially about there being no escape. This was essentially my original thought -- that politicians who exempt themselves, or attempt to, are pissing up a rope, whether you look at in Sartrean terms, i.e, the folly of trying to reduce politics to a theater of bad faith, or in Hegelian terms, i.e., the folly of attempting to freeze what is essentially a dialectical process into some sort of steady-state playground designed entirely for their own benefit.

In any event, I definitely wasn't intending to pose as Hegel's last defender on our damaged Earth, just giving credit where I thought it was due. The evil consequences of Hegel's thought can hardly be blamed entirely on him, any more than you can blame Einstein or Niels Bohr for Hiroshima.


[ Parent ]
No (0.00 / 0)
I don't blame the Gulags on Hegel.

But I do say it's no surprise they showed up downstream.

He wasn't evil.  Just an ass.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
By that reasoning, (0.00 / 0)
I suppose you'd have to conclude that Einstein was also an ass. :-) If you allow one person the benefit of historical context, fairness requires that you have to extend it to everyone, no? Compared to the disagreement I had with Kovie about Jefferson, this was a fairly mild one, I have to say, but as with Jefferson, Hegel isn't around to argue his case. If he were, perhaps the intervening 200 years would have turned him into Sartre or Lacan, perhaps not.

I'm not much in sympathy with Platonists early or late, as you must know, but I do think that inner and outer are mirrors of one another -- fun-house mirrors as often as not -- and I find it just a bit unseemly that anyone as adept at using language to model the world as you are, should be as dismissive as you are toward other laborers in the same vineyard, especially those with several feet of dirt on top of them.


[ Parent ]
Let Me Try One More Time (0.00 / 0)
I'm not saying Hegel was an ass because of anything that came after him. I'm saying he was an ass because he mistook grand abstractions for real things, and made a lot of rather baseless grand pronouncements as a result.  He was full of hot air.

Einstein, OTOH, saw through some of the grand abstractions of his time.  He picked things apart by thinking about them differently.

Even if you do the very best work, that work can still used for evil.  But if you do shoddy work, that work can't be used for good without also incurring a great cost, in one form or another.

And that's why the two men are not morally comparable to one another, IMHO.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Ah, but here is where I disagree with you (0.00 / 0)
Einstein was one of the most prominent of deductive reasoners in the history of science.  His great triumphs were mostly grand abstractions.  He DID cut through a lot of crap, he wasn't swayed by extant abstractions, and he was concerned with checking to make sure that his pronouncements were correct.

But in the end, he was making grand abstractions and deducing conclusions from them.  He didn't develop Relativity because of small things like the MIchelson-Morely experiment or the precession of Mercury's perehelion--he was looking to make known theory consistent.  That the above experiments (and the many other supporting ones) checked out was evidence to him that he was on the right track, not an inducement to develop theory.  


[ Parent ]
Let Me Put It This Way (0.00 / 0)
There are three great examples of Western fields where grand abstractions have great currency--philosophy, theoretical physics and math.  If you're going to do work in these fields, then abstractions are likely to come up.  The question is how you approach them & why.  The point you're making when you write "he wasn't swayed by extant abstractions" is precisely the one I'm trying to make.

He didn't add excess theoretical baggage--which is what Hegel did--he did the opposite, he stripped it away.  In fact, the idea of absolute reference frames is just the sort of abstraction that Hegel clung to (for all his talk of change, leading to a fore-ordained end, just like his recent wave of fanboys like Fukiyama).  And in the field of theoretical physics, there is little choice in the matter--one has to try doing these sorts of things in quest of finding the broadest possible regularities... or else discovering where they break down.  Either way progress is made.

OTOH, Western philosophy has a strong bias against that. It favors systematizing, even when it clearly doesn't work.   The de-systematizers like Wittgenstein are always swimming upstream, and that's why the systematizers like Plato, Aristotle, Kant, Hegel, etc. are inherently to be distrusted (or at least part of the reason).

Now, one can argue that Einstein went the other way with his hidden variable stuff when he turned his back on quantum mechanics' essentially probabilistic formulation.  Except that it has continued to generate critical perspectives that have kept some questions alive.  Given how generally untestable string theory and its kin have proven to be, one might criticize them more fairly.  And yet, well, who knows how folks will look back on today's physics 100 years from now?

What I'm fumbling around here trying to express is my fundamental pragamitist outlook--one has to judge the use of abstractions in these various different fields in the light of the purposes involved.  Pragmatism means judging things in terms of usefulness, which must be defined relative to a purposive framework.  Einstein clearly did that.  Hegel only made things more confused by offering simplistic grand abstractions in place of simply farcing up to the messiness of the world.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I wish we had the time (0.00 / 0)
This is quite a good debate, if one with limited appeal to other OpenLeft readers. In lieu of flogging our dying horse, let me just say that most Western thinkers have been afflicted with idealism of one kind or another, even when their own work undermines it. Einstein was certainly one of them, with his God not playing dice with the universe pursuit of a unified field theory.

Hegel, whatever you think of his teutonic pomposity, set a framework which has endured even as most of his conclusions have been abandoned. Sartre and Zizek, who have very similar non-idealistic minds, it seems to me -- aphoristic, rather than systematizing -- both owed/owe a debt to the grand abstractions of Hegel.

Wittgenstein I'll give you. A fascinating mind, and in many ways a real antidote to German idealism, coming as he does from such a different direction. Which leads me, I hope, to a sign-off. I think that you and I agree pretty much on where we ought to go, despite colorful differences in our prejudices, and our temperaments. That's gotta be worth something, doesn't it?


[ Parent ]
Not A Reply... (0.00 / 0)
Agreed to end the debate for now, but... In case you haven't already read it, Lakoff & Johnson's Philosophy in the Flesh : The Embodied Mind and Its Challenge to Western Thought provides an excellent critique of almost the entire framework of Western Philosophy including the problems we've been arguing over.

Unsurprisingly, Lakoff  elsewhere traces one aspect of his work--that dealing with categorization--back to Wittgenstein.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Well, yes (0.00 / 0)
Attempt to escape the dialectic, and it swallows you up anyway. That's what the hell-in-a-handbasket factor is all about.

[ Parent ]
Quite right (0.00 / 0)
They understand very well that as soon as you take a position -- any position -- the dialectic draws a bead on you. When that happens, you either win or you lose, and you can never predict which it will be.

They don't have to subscribe, or even know about Hegel's dialectic. It is simply an expression of the cause/effect law of nature.


[ Parent ]
Obama's decision to escalate the Afghan War (4.00 / 3)
and the resulting negative outcry from Progressives who elected him, for example, http://www.alternet.org/world/...

is a prime example of Hegel's dialectic in action.

Overall, though, it will be good thing, if the theory holds: Obama's decision will spur action opposing his administration's policies.

Thesis - antithesis - synthesis, that 's the dialectic.

Elect Obama, he's a good guy - Obama reneges - Obama goes down; Progressives fight back and find somebody better.

There have been multiple antitheses since the election leading to this moment, such as the bank bailout, the decision on war prisoners torture and lack of leadership on health care reform.


[ Parent ]
Add one more factor (0.00 / 0)
Its all as you say, but the system requires used-car salesmen who can occasionally deliver on something vital to the moneyed interests that buy the elections for them

[ Parent ]
My Fear (4.00 / 5)
Is that ultimately, this is Obama's reasoning:

1. The people want change (transformative deliverance of the system to something different and revolutionarily better).
2. I want change (trimming the edges of what is basically an eternal institution defined by a certain set of parameters that are unchanging).
3. I can provide 'change we can believe in' (tm).
4. The people do not understand how change actually happens in the real world.
5. 'change we can believe in' becomes the change I believe in.
6. I've got to keep doing this because they'll thank me in the end because I know better.

I am uncomfortable of accusing anyone I used to believe in so deeply as being capable of such profound disregard for people's beliefs.  But I also can't deny that this is exactly what it looks like.  Obama is consumed with image, with his perception of his environment, such that he is locked in a paradigm that puts him on a path that is at ultimate odds with what we need and with what the movement he sparked demands.

Figuring out how to be a progressive college graduate transplant to Ohio:  http://citizenobie.wordpress.com/


That's A Pretty Good Model, IMHO (4.00 / 1)
I'm not sure it's entirely correct.  But at this point I don't think it's a good idea to have an entirely correct model.  It's best to have several in mind, compare their predictions, and look at what actually happens.

So far, this model looks like a keeper to me.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Thanks (4.00 / 1)
I think the bolded points are the essentials.  I kind of need to believe for my own faith and conservative sense of universal-justice-arcing that Barack Obama sincerely wants to serve as a change agent (and isn't just a self-aggrandizing opportunist), albeit one with a pretty big ego.  He's just incredibly misguided, and ultimately influenced by conservative thinkers that are absolutely invested in themselves.

I'm not sure whether his intent matters at this point though, given that the effects remain the same.  I'm just too young to let myself be THAT disappointed.

I agree with the point above that Obama's true value is that he may just have woken the bear of progressives from their 30-year slumber.  I just hope my young comrades don't lose faith so easily, and can take this as a learning opportunity that can define their political involvement for the next generation.

But given how much my generations' privilege has bred complacency and an aversion to sacrifice and critical thinking (if I may be allowed to generalize)... well, we'll see.  I remain hopeful if only so that it may fuel continued action, because what alternative do we really have?

Figuring out how to be a progressive college graduate transplant to Ohio:  http://citizenobie.wordpress.com/


[ Parent ]
It may or may not be correct, but we will never know (4.00 / 3)
As you said, we can't be mind readers. Given that, I am inclined to act as if this model is true, because I think that is required to engage those who believe in Obama-the-man's good intentions.  The demand by some that we insist that Obama has bad intentions seems unproductive to my mind - it stands in the way of bringing people together to pressure Obama and the rest of the Village to do the things we need them to do.


Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.

[ Parent ]
Exactly (4.00 / 1)
Our goal must be to revive the Obama spirit and direct it as a force for progressive change we can believe in, independent of Obama.  The movement he inspired is I think, our greatest show of demographic force yet, now we need to wrest control of it.

We've got our work cut out for us.

Figuring out how to be a progressive college graduate transplant to Ohio:  http://citizenobie.wordpress.com/


[ Parent ]
Not long ago, I watched some of Obama-camp (4.00 / 1)
run by Marshall Ganz.  It was truly amazing. While the dangers of hero worship should have been clear to see (and Ganz himself was doing what he could to avoid it) - the energy was inspiring. I wonder if the people who were part of that, or others who engaged in politics for the first time (or the first time in a long time) during the campaign can be engaged again. It won't happen if we leave it up to the White House, the DNC or OFA.  

If it can be done, I think it has to be done outside of presidential politics - which creates too much of a temptation to turn a lasting movement about people into a(nother) temporary movement about one person.

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.


[ Parent ]
We Need To Recognize What Motivates People (4.00 / 2)
Ultimately, policy wonkery appeals to very few people.  Narratives and stories are what have mass appeal, and Obama had a fantastic narrative.

Linking that narrative to something it is more truly representative of is what we need to do.  We've been talking about this for how long now?  And Obama finally did it, but he didn't link the narrative to truly progressive intentions.  Part of this is his fault, and part of it is ours for not holding him accountable enough.  But it's a major league tightrope walk between inspiration and faith (which does, I think, empower us) and reason and decision-making (if we want our empowerment to pay off).

Figuring out how to be a progressive college graduate transplant to Ohio:  http://citizenobie.wordpress.com/


[ Parent ]
Policy wonkery only feels narrative-less (4.00 / 1)
But it has a narrative - it is one where a select group of people can discern the truth and dictate to everyone else without engaging them, where governmental decisions can be made without politics, which means without popular input or discussion of ends.  

That story is appealing to the wonks, just as other stories appeal to the rest of us.  Stories are a part of our humanity - the attempt to deny our narrative selves is an attempt to deny that humanity.

it's a major league tightrope walk between inspiration and faith (which does, I think, empower us) and reason and decision-making (if we want our empowerment to pay off).

Well said.

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.


[ Parent ]
wouldn't it make sense (0.00 / 0)
Since you are presenting "Obama's reasoning" that points #1 and #4 should read "activists" or "the Left" or "the movement." And of course, once you make that correction, the rest is not so surprising nor a "profound disregard."


New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.

[ Parent ]
I think everyone wants change (4.00 / 4)
Or if not change, to resist what they perceive as authority.  To the teabaggers it's the government, imposed pluralism (read Searching For Whitopia), and anything that contests their vision of a superior-white-middle-upper-class America.  To "The Left" it's more ambiguous, because I don't think everyone in the left has the same recognition of who our oppressors are (corporatist oligarchy-plutocracy).  But I really agree with Sirota's premise from The Uprising, that we are pretty damn united in being pissed at somebody for the rotten condition our country's in.

That's another thing Obama misunderstands or avoids dealing with, the ramifications of the divide between different perspectives (authoritarian-corporatist-segregationist vs. egalitarian-regulatory-pluralistic) and how trending towards the wrong side is very destructive.

Figuring out how to be a progressive college graduate transplant to Ohio:  http://citizenobie.wordpress.com/


[ Parent ]
That's the problem, though (0.00 / 0)
Obama ran on the notion that, as you say,
we are pretty damn united in being pissed at somebody for the rotten condition our country's in.

Obama has apparently abandoned this line of thinking, I guess when he had enough corporate backing that he didn't need the "little people."


[ Parent ]
That AND/OR (4.00 / 1)
That he is obsessed with bringing everyone together, feels like he has our unconditional buy-in, and wants to get it from Republicans and Conservadems to further his earth-shatteringly awesome agenda.  This is a charitable interpretation, but is so ludicrous (how can he still think he's going to get the approval of the McCain demographic and 'moderate conservatives'?) that I can hardly believe this is really his operating procedure.  I take Obama to be very smart, and so I think ultimately he has a belief system out of step with ours (he's actually closer to conservatives), and he trusted that we'd never leave him.

Big mistake, big misread, and we're all going to pay the consequences for that miscalculation.

Figuring out how to be a progressive college graduate transplant to Ohio:  http://citizenobie.wordpress.com/


[ Parent ]
Faith, in politics (4.00 / 1)
Is something I've grown to despise. Faith requires trust. In a liberal world it also requires knowing what the heck one is asked to place faith in.

Even in the authoritarian world things are parsed down to little slogans and catch phrases for the masses.

I've said it before.. But progressives need a clear simple platform.. and we need to hold to it as much a (liberal humanly) possible. We simply cannot waver so easilly... and blubber on like we do here in the real world and gain support of many who are sympathetic to out ideals... because they don't have time to get into our ramblings.

A perfect example, imo, was the whole PO meme... it was never defined (though a few like Jane tried very hard to do so) in a manner which even a few progressive bloggers agreed to, much less held to their guns.

How the heck are we going to maintain faith among our ranks, much less bring millions of others into the faith/mix.. when we never agree upon basic definitions and goals... and rarely when we do.. do we simplify in order to be able to best amplify?

Fork Obama... the only thing we need now is to continue to try to break down his wall... while looking directly at our Progressive House members in the eye... demanding they get a spine fast! We have to make Obama listen to us, not try to figure out how to make him give us a hug.


Some thoughts (0.00 / 0)
1. Obama was always Ben Nelson in Harold Ford Jr.s body. Discovering that in Dec. 2009 is not an achievement.

2. Obama is governing as far to the left as one could have imagined a country that could have elected George Bush Jr. to be governed.

Remember, the GOP was taking serial body blows from the Ron Paul types, and that is why you have the luxury of bemoaning corporate Democrats rather than proto-fascist government. That luxury may not always be there.

3. If the battle is authoritarians vs. other (which it is) isn't a natural coalition progressives and libertarians?

You can effect that as "authentically" as you like by saying:

1. I am a member of a political minority

2. I need a coalition in order to have a say in government

3. I notice that you libertarians are in a like position

4. If you are willing to accept a safety net as inevitable we can work together to reduce corruption, crony capitalism, empire, and restore civil liberties.

Or we can continue to be rolled by the neo-aristocracy.

By all means, make an "authentic" choice.


You misundertand a lot of other people, and they misunderstand you (4.00 / 5)
because of this central point which many of your arguments are based on that I think are not widely shared here:

Obama is governing as far to the left as one could have imagined a country that could have elected George Bush Jr. to be governed.

I think this logic is flawed, and what's more I think the evidence shows that the public is far more willing to support progressive policies that you suggest.  

Also, about this:

If you are willing to accept a safety net as inevitable we can work together to reduce corruption, crony capitalism, empire, and restore civil liberties.

Do you know libertarians who are willing to accept the safety net? Because without some evidence, I would think this is asking libertarians to give up on a core element of their viewpoint. I may be wrong, but for the moment I don't buy it.

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.


[ Parent ]
Um, I'm really unclear as to your points. Harold Ford vs. Ben Nelson? (0.00 / 0)
That reads as a reasonably creepy way to inject race into your commentary. There aren't enormous differences between the two policy-wise,save for Nelson's more aggressive pro-life stance (which would put Obama closer to Ford.) But since I'm not following much of your analysis here, I'm hoping you had something more reasoned in mind?

[ Parent ]
Where is the luxury? (4.00 / 1)
Progressive were uninvited to the WH health care discussion table from the get go (we didn't even get a hug). Even i who saw much of what Paul did early on... never imagined I would type that line about any D president.

Didn't you hear we just escalated needless war and occupations? We just let Obama get us further into war without one bit of substantive evidence of the need to do so... in fact we know now, more than ever, how insane it is. heck we didn't even get a false presentation.. just more unsubstantiated claims of planned attacks from some boogiemen inside Pakistan. Had Bushco tried that on Americans (again) we would all be howling like rabid wolves.

Didn't you hear we continued to bailout banksters... with no accountability or real renewed regulations in place?

Haven't you checked in with emptywheel or Greenwald from time to time... our liberties, and the unitary executive are worse in a few short months than they were a year ago!

But we can't afford real meaningful/ investment/stimulus in ourselves.

and on and on.


Obama as means to an end (4.00 / 4)
As you implied, Obama represented a beginning, not an end point. Yet too many democrats/progressives treated the election of Obama as if this was the answer to maiden's prayers. In reality, it wasn't even a home run. Just a small step indicating more than anything that grassroots, IF activated, can turn versailles around, or at least give it a good spin.

Of course, versailles is clever and will respond by co-opting the slogans of change to prevent change. In fact, the "establishment" sometime in February 2008 figured out that Obama can win - the rest was just a playbook "remake of the candidate " (that would have been the title of my movie, were I in the movie making business). I remember the fun we all had back in April/may'08  or so, when Obama made an unscheduled plane stop for some meeting with somebody in a hangar at the dc airport. many joked that's when the bilderbergs gave him the marching orders. Thing is - versailles needs no bilderberg to work its insidious aims. wealth and power know only one thing - how to keep it - and try to grow it - like an organism. The rest is icing on the cake - or padding for the madhouse - depending which side of the scale one is on.

What Obama proved is not that HE is a progressive man (never was, probably - as his brief senate career indeed proved), but that progressives CAN win IF they stay focused enough on a goal - and manage to hold together a coalition around it. That goal to me is something  I refer to as the "greater good", as in "greater than oneself",. cliche that it is, is no less true. Whatever that means to anyone else, to me it means thriving to transcend one's more self-oriented impulses/desires and recognizing that there is social dimension to life, which Something that's like yet beyond the abstract "good works" that religions preach. That extra dimension is what I think distinguishes a progressive from a libertarian to whom his/her own "liberty" and "freedom to act" is everything, and society, in its complexity and confilcting demands for compromise, is just a pain. Whereas to the progressive, society is the sea they swim in. Alas, existence within a liquid can be confusing. So we, who believe in the solidarity of flow, often envy the seeming solidity of conservatives.

You implied - or the commenter quoted did, that what progressives lack sometimes is the transcendent force of religion. For what is religion if not the ability TO BELIEVE despite all the evidence to the contrary. The element of faith is the transformative part of religion. It's why hopelessly outgunned resistance movements turn to religion. It's why the taliban are fundamentalists, and hamas, and hezbollah, and the maccabis of old. When there's nothing else to hang onto, there's only faith - the one thing no one can take away. Belief in the face of reality.

Perhaps what's needed is an element of faith for the progressives. So they can stay focused on the goal even as the sign posts are way wobbly. So they couldn't be so easily co-opted and/or sent into the depths of despair on account of a politician's failings, because that's all Obama is - at the end - a politician. Right now I see too many progressives who act like they are  disoriented. like someone pulled the rug from under their feet.

But you say (and it's good that you say that), we don't live in the world of ali baba that we could ever make carpets fly.

Hope you keep preaching, but realism in the interest of idealism is a tough message to get through. I know. Some of my best friends are libertarians.


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