The Wonk Demographic and the Stupid Voters

by: John Emerson

Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 12:00


(Here's another diary from John, taking a slightly different angle of approach to the pernicious influence of anti-populist attitudes in the Democratic Party. - promoted by Paul Rosenberg)

1.

Often in progressive discussions you will hear someone say that our real problem is the stupidity of the voters. Sometimes this is just trolling or harmless venting, but far too often it's seriously intended. This is a disastrous conclusion and amounts to quitting: you can't win by running against the electorate. Furthermore, it plays into the hands of all of the anti-democratic forces arrayed against us: above all, Hans van Spakovsky's well-funded, multi-decade voter discouragement program, but also the elitism of our centrist adversaries within the Democratic Party.

Since WWII, American intellectual life and the leadership of both political parties have been heavily influenced by anti-democratic, anti-popular, anti-populist thinkers: both imports like Leo Strauss, Friedrich Hayek, and Theodor Adorno, but also such indigenous thinkers as Richard Hofstadter and Daniel Bell, and the domination of the Democratic Party by its anti-popular tendencies has allowed the Republicans to gain a lot of cheap votes with fake populism. (As I keep saying, Republican populism is fake, but Democratic elitism is real).

Unless you regard everyone without at least a master's degree as stupid, the facts do not justify the Democratic or progressive disparagement of stupid voters. In 2008 high school dropouts were Obama's best educational demographic at 63%. Voters with advanced degrees were next best at 58%, with HS graduates and those with some college giving Obama respectively 52% and 51% of their votes. At 50%, college graduates without advanced degrees were Obama's worst demographic. Thus, when people talk about "stupid voters" what they're really talking about is an internal split within the most-educated 28.8% of the population -- between those with BAs and BSs and those with MAs and PhDs.  

John Emerson :: The Wonk Demographic and the Stupid Voters
This illuminates two clichés of American political debate: first, the "elitist Democrat" idea, and second, the culture wars. Those who most resent the elite Democrats are themselves college graduates, and as Gelman recently has recently shown, the culture war is a split within the more prosperous and better-educated class, and not a split between educated liberals and ignorant conservatives. Democrats often speak of the religious right as hillbillies and trailer trash, but they're more likely to be well-off, complacent college graduates.

It's true, however, that the less educated a demographic is, the less likely it is to vote, and Obama's best demographic is also the one least likely to vote. Whoever wants to can argue that this show that stupid people indeed are the problem, but it makes much more sense to regard it as a Democratic and progressive failure. The low turnout also explains why the less-educated demographic is poorly served by its elected representatives, and at the same time this vicious circle is one of the reasons why the poorer and less-educated tend not to vote.

There's good reason to believe that the present Democratic Party is unenthusiastic about bringing in new voters (ACORN!!!) primarily because new voters would make inconvenient demands conflicting with the things Democratic pros need to do to massage their big donors. Furthermore, recruiting voters and getting out the vote is harder work than fundraising, and successful fundraising is what brings in the money to pay the pros.

Because the less-educated and poorer vote less, the Republican-Democratic battle is mostly fought within the educational/economic top third of the electorate, with the bottom two-thirds dragged into the struggle with various sorts of peripheral appeals but very poorly represented by either party. This situation is strikingly reminiscent of the Bourbon Democrat / Standpat Republican era (approximately 1870-1912), when the two parties were in substantial agreement on the big economic issues and were split only on ethnic and sectional grounds (Northern Protestants vs. Catholics and Southerners). As a result, during this era the great majority of the population (labor, and poor-to-middling farmers) were virtually unrepresented.

People who sputter about stupid voters tend to confuse two different groups: the hardcore crazified Republicans who make up about 30% of the electorate, and the 21% of the remainder that the Republicans need to win. These 21% are usually called independents or moderates, but most of them are low information voters - voters who can be talked into voting for hardcore conservatives even though they themselves are not very conservative or not conservative at all.

It's reasonable to call these stupid, but even they are stupid either because they don't have much information at all, or because they get their information from bad and dishonest sources.
I call them "ambient voters" - voters who make no effort to inform themselves but pick their political opinions out of the air (i.e., from free broadcast media and local scuttlebutt).

Whining about these voters is silly - you have to play the hand you're dealt. At the present time, ambient political opinion in the US is center-right to far right, and that's what we need to change. Since 2003 (Keith Olbermann) we've had a few center-left voices on the air, but radio and TV are still predominantly right wing, and the print media aren't much better. We have to realize that the media, by and large, are on the other team. They're not trying unsuccessfully to be good political journalists, they're triumphantly succeeding at being hack political journalists.

It's up to Democrats and progressives to do something about this, but so far they haven't. Compared to Republicans and conservatives, Democrats and progressives have done a terrible job of developing and propagating their message. For progressives, developing new media and new forms of communications is the most important task.

2.

Wonks with post-graduate degrees are a significant voting demographic playing a major role in the Democratic Party.  9.9% of the American adult population has advanced degrees, but because they vote more reliably than other groups they comprise 17% of the actual voters. 58% of the wonks voted for Obama and only 40% for McCain, and all told, despite their small numbers, they comprised almost a fifth of Obama's vote.

Besides voting more reliably than other groups, wonks also tend to be more politically active in many other ways, and since Democratic pros often are wonks too, wonks are doubly influential within the Democratic Party. Unfortunately, the wonk domination of the Democratic Party has caused a lot of problems. Even the political beliefs of many wonks are egalitarian at some level, during their ascendancy the views of the cultured elite have inevitably taken on an undue importance. Furthermore, wonks tend to have trouble communicating even with the stupid graduates of four-year colleges, to say nothing of even less-educated folk. The cool, superior, professorial, above-the-battle, anti-populist "let's not be hasty" approach may have worked in the fifties, but nowadays it annoys more people than it persuades.

Beyond that, wonks tend to spend their lives in academic, professional, and administrative environments within which open conflict and the expression of anger are taboo (though of course plenty of conniving and backbiting goes on behind the scenes). For this reason wonks tend to be strategically and tactically impaired (and not just rhetorically when talking to the voters), since their method is to use sweet reasons and civil argument to try to reach a civilized consensus on the right answer to questions rather than to engage in the kinds of competition, gaming, haggling and struggle whereby decisions emerge from bitter multi-player battles.*

The military and foreign-policy weakness many   see in the Democratic Party is in part just an extrapolation from their feebleness in conflicts with their political enemies: as Bartcop says, "How can the Democrats protect America if they can't even protect themselves?" Thus, when Democrats cave in to Republican hawks on military questions, rather than making themselves look strong on defense, they just look that much weaker.

Most discussions of election demographics are carried on by political pros trying to bring their candidate or their party to victory. I'm not really sure that my suggestion of outreach to the less-educated and a more populist appeal will be immediately helpful to the Democratic pros that way. When I looked at the numbers and assumed that all educational demographics would vote at equal rates, instead of the most highly educated voting the most, I found that Obama would have gotten about 53% of the vote - about what he got in the actual election, 53%. Thus, a more populist campaign would require that the party to work harder to get about the same results, and why should the pros want to do that?

On the other hand, if what you're trying to do is to make the Democratic Party (and the United States) more egalitarian and more democratic, my suggestions will be useful. Furthermore, while it has been a dogma of American politics, ever since the fifties, that class is unimportant and that "status" (and subculture, and identity, and so on) are what really counts, I suspect that this is going to change. The idea was always more tendentious than descriptive, coming mostly from those who wanted to suppress class politics, and it was only at all persuasive because of a widespread conviction that everyone's future would be better than their present. If the present downturn is not temporary, but just the endgame a 30-year process of restratification, the optimistic illusion of classlessness seems likely to disappear.

3.

To an unfortunate degree, the Democratic Party has become the party of wonks, cultural elites, and expert administration, but this accounts for some of the party's weakness during the last forty years and I think that this problem will soon get worse. Our present and continuing economic problems are a wonk disaster -- the direct result of the bipartisan failure of our economic elite. But beyond that, if these troubles continue very much longer, a fair number of those with advanced degrees might find themselves joining the peasantry themselves, and sharing the common condition in ways which they did not expect and never would voluntarily have chosen. When that happens, they might be wanting pitchforks themselves.

* This is not true of Rahm Emanuel, bless his black heart, but Rahm unfortunately prefers to direct his guns at the left wing of his own party rather than at the Republicans.

****************************

DATA

NO HIGH SCHOOL (Obama 63%): 14.3% of the population, 4% of the CNN exit poll sample.

HS DEGREE ONLY (Obama 52%): 31.6% of population, 20% of sample.

SOME COLLEGE (51% Obama): 25.3% of the population, 31% of sample.

BACHELOR'S DEGREE (50% Obama): 18.9% of population, 28% of sample.

ADVANCED DEGREES (58% Obama): 9.9% of population 17% of sample.

CNN Election 2008 National Exit Poll (breakdown of 2008 voting by education and the proportion of the actual voters from the various educational groups):
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/20...

US Census: Educational Attainment by Selected Characteristic 2007 (percentages of various educational groups in the population as a whole):
http://www.census.gov/compendi...

MORE LINKS ON EDUCATION AND CLASS

Open Left: Town and Gown (geographical variations in voting / education relationship)
http://openleft.com/diary/1605...

Will the Real White Working Class Please Stand Up?
http://www.emergingdemocraticm...

Bartels: What's the Matter with "What's the Matter with Kansas"?
http://www.princeton.edu/%7eba...
Crooked Timber: Not in Kansas anymore
http://crookedtimber.org/2005/...

The Decline of the White Working Class and the Rise of a Mass Upper Middle Class:
http://www.brookings.edu/~/med...

Emerging Democratic Majority on Bartels on Frank:

The good news: "Has the white working class abandoned the Democratic Party," asks Bartels. "No. White voters in the bottom third of the income distribution have actually become more reliably Democratic in presidential elections..." The bad news: Bartels's definition of the white working class--white voters whose incomes put them in the lower-third of the household income distribution--is quite different from the prevailing definition of the white working class. In a broad version of the prevailing definition, the white working class consists of white voters whose education has stopped short of a four-year college degree.  


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The vast bulk of stupid policies have been relentlessly pushed (4.00 / 8)
by bipartisan coalitions and the corporate media through lies on the public - witness Vietnam, Iraq and massive tax cuts to the rich.  These were not demands made by the public.  

As such, the complain about stupid voters being the problem is, in a word, stupid.

This isn't motivated solely by elitism. Democrats had great success in mobilizing at the elite level - this was a major factor in protecting and expanding Democratic priorities at a time when Republicans were dominating presidential politics. That success - especially during the Nixon-Ford years - may have committed many to that sort of approach even as Republicans found ways to undermine it (through mass mobilization not tied only to elections.)

That said, many wonks like to pretend that others engage politics through narratives, but they are above that, while others are emotional and foolish - but that is their narrative - one that rationalizes their own actions and beliefs.

I should also point out that the poor and less educated voting at lower rates is not a universal phenomenon - it does not hold for other countries or throughout US history. This suggests that the reasons are institutional, not individual.  The Democratic Party and its allies (most importantly, unions) used to be organized to mobilize voters on the ground - now the party is organized to collect money from large donors and run PR campaigns. It is outgunned by the Republican Party on both counts.

Keep up the good work, John.

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.


The ACORN story is telling (4.00 / 12)
ACORN did a ton of voter registration. It's people like them who keep the Democrats viable, but the Democrats abandoned them the minute the Republicans said BOO! It now turns out that the evidence was forged and the law unconstitutional, but the Democrats didn't care about that. They really like to cut their own throats.

Jesse Jackson wasn't treated quite that badly, but he was not appreciated after he rocked the boat in 1980.

The Democrats are dependent on voters they're ashamed of and essentially despise (blacks, progressives, labor), and that makes both their policymaking and their campaigning almost unintelligible at times.


[ Parent ]
Not To Mention EFCA! (4.00 / 6)
Remember EFCA?  If so, you don't live in Versailles.

And where, exactly, would any of the Democratic senators be without strong labor support?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The ACORN Story Is KEY! (4.00 / 1)
The question is: "Why did conservatives push the ACORN story so hard and why did Democrats cave in on it?"

The short answer is: RACISM. "ACORN is stealing the election" is about "subverting" the democratic process by registering all those "darkies" (if Obama wins the blacks will take over" as one white working class voter -- who does NOT consider himself a racist said to me) and especially ILLEGALS!

It's nothing more than code-word racism. Republicans push it because white working class voters, especially men who have been downsized are proving very susceptible to faux populist appeals to racism -- "stop the illegals from stealing our jobs!" "stop the welfare-ites from taking my tax dollars!"

And THAT is really what progressive wonks are objecting to: "Why are white Americans so STUPID that they respond to obvious appeals to racism? Can't they see that they are merely playing into the hands of their exploiters?"

Racism has been holding us back in this country since the very beginning. It has always been a ready tool of exploitation -- especially in the South -- just as it is today.

This story was so powerful that Republicans resurrect it at every election (including this November) -- even where ACORN is TOTALLY uninvolved (it's become a slogan that embodies a whole narrative about whites being displaced: "ACORN!")

But, why did Democrats fold so quickly on this rather than fight back?

Normally passed off as spinelessness it is actually not. They wanted to mute such attacks because engaging in a full scale war with Republicans over ACORN would only inflame working class whites MORE (or Democrats fear they would).

The longer that Republicans get debate onto THEIR issue of racist white fears of "undeserving blacks" and "illegals" being registered -- even if such charges are patently ridiculous and made up -- the BETTER! Their base gets riled up and more angry -- and Democrats become divided along racial lines. It's a lose-lose proposition in the minds of Democratic Congressmen.  


[ Parent ]
An even more egregious example than ACORN is (4.00 / 6)
the question of why Democrats were so passive while the 2000 election was stolen from them.  Jesse Jackson was ready to lead a fight based on the vast numbers of (mostly black) so-called "felons" (many of whom were not) who were unjustly stricken from the rolls, but fight was one Gore and the rest of the national Dems didn't want to take on, even to the point of losing an election they won.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

[ Parent ]
Yeah, I thought of mentioning that (4.00 / 2)
Jackson never got proper credit for the things he did.

[ Parent ]
And MoveOn? They sold out MoveOn too. (0.00 / 0)
Democrats don't like their base because they want a share of the pie that Democrats are being paid to redistribute up.   They do it and believe they can get away with it, and apparently can, because where else do blacks, liberals, and working class people have to go?   This is why I advocate dropping the Dems on their ass.  Yes, we'll get more Republicans, but so what?  Losing to a D or an R is still losing.

This essay is good, but it equates educated with smart and uneducated with stupid.  Employing many people with advanced degrees over my career, let me be the first to tell you that one often has little to do with the other.  Educated doesn't mean smart, and uneducated doesn't mean stupid.  


[ Parent ]
The point is to forget about "stupid" (4.00 / 5)
The problem with Republicans. individually or as a group,  isn't that they are dumb. Democrats who think they're smarter than everyone else are not as smart as they think they are.

I chose educational level as a proxy for stupid/smart just in order to make my point that intelligence is distributed between the two parties pretty unpredictably. There no definition of "stupid" that helps you understand why people vote Republican. A better definition wouldn't work either.

There's one reason why education level is a good proxy, though. Most of the progressives or liberals who rant about stupid voters have a bachelor's degree or above. Their pride in their education causes them to misunderstand the nature of the problem. The definition of "smart" these voters use is so restricted that it amounts to renouncing democracy entirely.

Highly educated people get to where they are by passing a series of difficult tests, and when they vent about stupid people they're venting about stupid people who didn't pass those tests.  


[ Parent ]
I see. (0.00 / 0)
My point was your point.  Sorry I missed it.  

[ Parent ]
Racism isn't just stupid people (4.00 / 2)
There are plenty of PhD racists. In the South educated people are conservative Republicans.

Switching the discussion over to racism is realistic, but if you believe that racists are typically poor and uneducated you miss the point.


[ Parent ]
I was thinking that today... (4.00 / 3)
...EFCA has basically disappeared.  And what about labor?  Do they represent their membership any more?  There membership seem almost seem like sheep being led to the slaughter, but there leadership seems to do nothing, but in the end go along with the corporate Democrats.

Regards,

Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me-and I welcome their hatred. - FDR


[ Parent ]
this sounds about right to me (4.00 / 1)
Why Progressive Activists Are Giving Obama a Pass
The White House stitched up the unions quickly and easily by delaying the passage of EFCA.  I remember saying at the inauguration that if I were Rahm, I'd never pass EFCA because as long as I didn't, the unions (which are by far the best funded institutions on the left) wouldn't be able to move against me.


not everything worth doing is profitable. not everything profitable is worth doing.

[ Parent ]
And the unions bought that? (4.00 / 2)
After NAFTA, a gazillion other trade deals, stalling EFCA, and taxing "cadillac benefits" to pay for corporate welfare, why?  This is what stupid is no matter how many degrees they have or don't have.  

[ Parent ]
Who Knows Who's Hurting? (4.00 / 8)
The two most important things for any politician to know is who's hurting and why.

Right now, the Obama Administration specifically, and the Democratic Party leadership in general does not know these basic things--and they seem headed to electoral defeat--perhaps even disaster--as a direct result.

So my question is: Who's stupid now?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


IT's NOT so Simple Paul! (4.00 / 2)
 What is happening in America? It is becoming a majority minority country at a rapid rate.

What is the response of white working class America to this? Anger and fear == Anger that black and brown people are "taking over" and fear for their few remaining jobs.

The election of Obama crystallized these fears for millions of working class whites, who are under ever increasing economic stress, but they don't respond to it in rational ways. There's literally NOTHING Obama can do about this more than he has been -- trying to calm white fears.

Those statistics on under-educated voters supporting DON'T DIVIDE THEM BY RACE! Thus, they are misleading.

Coming from a Southern Pentacostalist family, Joe Bageant has written eloquently about this for years: http://www.counterpunch.org/ba...

From the wide open front door the Pentecostal preacher's message echoed from within the plain wooden walls: "Thank you Gawd for giving us strawng leaders like President Bush during this crieeesis. Praise you Lord and guide him in this battle with Satan's Muslim armies.". . . . Forget about changing their minds. These Christians do not read the same books we do, they do not get their information from anything remotely resembling reasonably balanced sources, and in fact, consider even CBS and NBC super-liberal networks of porn and the Devil's lies. Given how fundamentalists see the modern world, they may as well be living in Iraq or Syria, with whom they share approximately the same Bronze Age religious tenets. They believe in God, Rumsfeld's Holy War and their absolute duty as God's chosen nation to kick Muslim ass up one side and down the other. In other words, just because millions of Christians appear to be dangerously nuts does not mean they are marginal. "  

What's changed since 2004 when Bageant wrote that such people were the majority? They got out organized and out-voted in 2006 and 2008 by a different coalition. That's all. They didn't change their views one bit! The same churches who preached the holiness of Bush see Obama as Satan's minion.

You can't argue with people like this and you can't "educate them." They rightly see such attempts as condescension by liberals who "know better". The educated who have futures are lecturing to those who see only the bleak "end of days" in their own condition. Are liberals going to convince them to abandon their religious beliefs?

Seriously, what do liberal white economists like Robert Reich -- talking about the green-technology jobs of the future have to say to such people?

Sorry to be bleak, but there's nothing to do with such people but out-organize and out-fight and eventually outnumber and out-vote them. Because they have NEVER been convinced and they never will be.

Rural white America is dying, their way of life is disappearing and frankly, progressives aren't going to change that or convince them to abandon their beliefs.  


[ Parent ]
The white working didn't attack acorn (4.00 / 4)
the republicans and the dlc did!  Both college educated groups.  It is the suburbanites that fear blacks and black takeover!  


My blog  

[ Parent ]
I disagree that there is NOTHING (4.00 / 8)
Obama could've done. He could've bailed out Main Street instead of Wall Street. He could've frogmarched the people who crashed our economy down the street instead of giving them a blank check. He could have fought for healthcare reform that would help people instead of further enriching pharmaceutical and insurance companies.

Roosevelt created a generation of Democrats and patriots out of rural white Americans, Obama could've done the same.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Paul is right... (4.00 / 1)
30 years ago, Clinton and Reagan cost blue collar auto workers their jobs in droves.  Today, it is white collar that is losing their jobs and filing for bankruptcy.  They are engineers and other high skilled individuals with multiple advanced degrees.   I'm talking two master degrees and a Ph.D.   So what does Obama do?  Obama comes into MI and shows up at the community college to tout all of the money he is giving to community colleges to help Michigan's unemployed.   Add in the fact that the damned Car Czar that's been joined at the hip with MI for the whole last year, and it makes his ignorance even worse.    Democrats are out of touch with reality and hung up on stereotypes.   There's the disconnect that Paul is talking about.    

[ Parent ]
Not just about "knowing" (4.00 / 5)
it's also about caring. During the campaign (and even now to a large extent) Obama seemed to be able to convey the sense that he genuinely cared about the people who are suffering. The evidence based on his actions so far does not seem to support that. Maybe he does not know as much as he thinks he does about what's going on "out there" in America. Or maybe he just really doesn't care as much as he claims to care, or (not to get too psychological here) as much as he's convinced himself that he cares. Probably some of each.

And/or maybe it's the Obama/DC Beltway variety of Doublethink and Denialism that you dissect in the Malicious bullshitting--the key to global warming denialism? post above.  


[ Parent ]
Exactly (4.00 / 1)
Republicans often are ignorantt, but it's not because they're stupid, it's because they don't care and don't want to know.

In some cases (Karl Rove, George Bush) Republicans seems stupid because they're lying.

Some people seem stupid because they hate liberals so much that they won't listen.


[ Parent ]
All Of The Above, But Especially The Last (0.00 / 0)
The Versailles Dem version of Doublethink and Denialism is more subtle and more intricate, but no less removed from reality.  As is usually the case, one starts with the most extreme, clearest example, in order to understand the essential patterns involved, and then one can see the same patterns elsewhere as well.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
So I was about to completely disagree with you (4.00 / 1)
(big surpise...)and then, after 5 paragraphs, concluded you were more right than the comment I was writing.

Franklin said of John Adams once that he was a smart man, and what he knew he knew very well. Alas, Franklin said, what Adams did not know he did not suspect existed.

I think Obama damn well knows people are hurting, and he knows why. I just can't believe Axelrod et al haven't run the same numbers I have and seen how closely unemployment and Presidential Approval correlate.

The most hopeful thing I have seen out of Obama in 6 months was the speech this week that said we are going to spend our way out of the recession.  There is a parallel in that speech to FDR's evolving thinking from '34 to '36 which lead him to stick to his guns on stimulus.

FDR then lost his nerve, and that is where I thought Obama was headed until this week.  

BUT - there is an enourmous disconnect between the economics profession and the real world of day to day business.  This disconnect has always existed: as a trained economist who advises companies in the real world, it has become more obvious to me with each passing year.

Roubiani in a throw away line two weeks ago mentioned that 25% of US jobs were offshorable in the next 3 to 5 years.  Four days prior the NYT had an article essentially suggesting that most Americans were overpaid within the context of a global labor market.

Within the economics profession, though, there has been surprisingly little thought to what this massive job loss, which is surely coming, means.  That is because on issues like these the profession doesn't have good numbers to fit into their models.  

To close the loop here: I think Obama's record on things that macro economists discuss (deficit to gdp ratio, quantitative easing) is quite defensible, though inadequate at some level, the extent of which is debatable.

But the larger questions lurking beneath the surface, questions about exploding productivity and what that means, have been ignored.

To paraphrase Franklin, what the Obama knows exists (general macro-economics) it knows quite well.  Alas, what it does not know (the deflationary effects of globalization) it does not suspect exist.  And it's ignorance is tracable to the inherint limitations of economic wonks.

Great comment, and great diary.


[ Parent ]
I should add (0.00 / 0)
that this disconnect is something that is completely obvious to voters who are trying to make a living in this job market.  So when they see jobs being lost to offshoring, and really nothing being said from Democrats on the issue at all, I am sure they wonder why.  

[ Parent ]
They don't wonder why. (4.00 / 2)
They know.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
So, Thanks! (4.00 / 1)
The Franklin quote is priceless, and aptly applied.  But,in fact, there's nothing really new about the job loss potential.  A couple of heavyweights from Businessweek--William Wolman and Anne Colamosca-- wrote about this twelve years ago in the book, The Judas Economy: The Triumph of Capital and the Betrayal of Work.  If the Democratic economic policy elite had anything going for them at all, they would have known this was coming back then, when things superficially still looked good.

I think Obama damn well knows people are hurting, and he knows why.

In the abstract, perhaps.  But the difference between abstract knowledge and concrete action is all the difference in the world.  "By their fruits ye shall know them," yadd-yadda-yadda. Politicians need to know these things in their bones.  Knowing and not acting is even stupider than not knowing at all.

I just can't believe Axelrod et al haven't run the same numbers I have and seen how closely unemployment and Presidential Approval correlate.

Knowing them in their spreadsheets isn't enough, evidently.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Voters might not be stupid but... (0.00 / 0)
I agree that "stupid" is the wrong term. Uninformed or low informed is better but the GOP and their media lackeys do a good job of getting these voters to vote against their best interests.

Sure they make sure no gays can marry while the Goldman Sachs people steals their wallet.


Informing the voters is part of our job (4.00 / 7)
Democrats, liberals, and progressives have been very remiss in developing and publicizing their message between elections. A lot of the effort of that type goes to single-issue groups that don't really contribute to any general political effort. Some of them (most famously NARAL) are happy to work with Republicans.

The Heritage Foundation, CATO, etc. etc., etc, are not  matched by comparable progressive or even left-center institutions. We have about a 30-year deficit in that area.


[ Parent ]
Education, shmeducation, how does this correlate with IQ? (3.00 / 4)
Imho it is a mistake to look only at the qualifications of people. Especially since we know that people from a poor and lower middle class background are facing increasing problems to finance the education that would be adquate to their intelligence. Really, by looking only at the degrees, aren't we looking at a distorted picture, and even one that dimishes the potential of Dem voters who couldn't afford expensive education?

And the other side of the medal is warped, too! (2.00 / 2)
What about all those rich kids whose qualification is more due to their parent's influence at the institution, than to any achievements? Spoiled brats like George W. Bush? Really, by looking at education only, we see a picture that is distorted in two ways!

[ Parent ]
I'm less and less inclined to respond to you at all, Gray (4.00 / 1)
Bush is not stupid. He is dishonest, cruel, lacking in curiosity, corrupt, and eactionary, but he's not stupid.  

[ Parent ]
Youn wanna, say, h would have gone to Yale even... (2.00 / 2)
...if his dad had been, say, a bus driver? Come on, he would have been happy to finish high school,if at all! And that's the distortion I'm speaking about. One university grad too much for the GOP, one university grad too few for the Dems. The picture doesn't represent the true abilites of the voters.

[ Parent ]
He would have gone to some college and done pretty well (4.00 / 1)
He's bright normal. He pretends to be dumber than he is to trick people like you into making fools of yourselves.

[ Parent ]
"He would have gone to some college and done pretty well" (2.00 / 2)
Probably not:

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in the...

Top
income
quintile         6.30%          16.30%     42.30%

Middle
income
quintile        17.30%           25%       15.30%

Bottom
income
quintile        37.30%           18.40%     7.30%


http://cte.rockhurst.edu/s/945...

[ Parent ]
Oh, come on Gray (0.00 / 0)
Do you really believe that what you just said is a useful response to my article? You just had to say something, didn't you?

[ Parent ]
Don't start this again. (2.00 / 2)
I'm not in the mood to cope with your paran..., uh, thin skin. It's a serious comment. I'm honestly concerned we do our own side a disfavor by using degrees as a way to identify "stupid voters". Let's see what our other folks here think of this.

[ Parent ]
That's the confusion (4.00 / 2)
I think its clear that John was disputing the idea that these people are stupid voters, and pointing out that people conventionally labeled as such are often reliable Democratic voters, and therefore can't be blamed for Republican wins. Thus the use of the quotes around the term.

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.

[ Parent ]
I'm not confused about the quotes. (2.67 / 3)
I'm just saying that there may be a problem with using educational degrees as a criterion for identifying "ambient voters", without even questioning if this is the bst way, may be problemtic, that's all.

And I have to say that I'm really pissed about the way John regularly questiuons my intentions if I post a critical comment. He rally should take Paul, Chris, or expecially Mike as a role model for coping with criticism. Imho this is becoming ridiculous.


[ Parent ]
No you're not (0.00 / 0)
I'm honestly concerned we do our own side a disfavor by using degrees as a way to identify "stupid voters".

No you're not. You just like to blow smoke.

Education is a good-enough proxy. Data is not taken on voter IQ, but if it were, you'd grumble about IQ tests.

The burden of proof is for anyone who uses "The voters are stupid" cop out to show that the word has any content beyong "The voters vote for Republicans".


[ Parent ]
See, folks? It's always the same with John. (2.00 / 2)
Always the same old allegation of acting in bad faith. I really don't need that shit. Who does this guy think he is?

[ Parent ]
Gary, you have taken over the thread with a very peripheral issue about which you are wrong. (0.00 / 0)
You always do that. You just like the sound of your voice.

I'm hoping to have an interestiung discussion with someone other than you. People tell me that you make interesting contributions elsewhere, but you never do here.

In order to have a discussion, I'm trollrating you and encouraging others to do so. I won't respond to any of your future posts.

I would like to see my article discussed.


[ Parent ]
Well, that's TR abuse, and I'm sure you know that. (2.67 / 3)
And for "I would like to see my article discussed.": I don't think many people will dare to criticize you in any way after you once again showed how you react on this. That's the "discussion" you're looking for?

[ Parent ]
He's Not Wrong, Gray (4.00 / 2)
You really ARE disrupting a relevant discussion of John's diary.  This is highly disrespectful of his work--and disrespectful of those who want to engage in a serious discussion of it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I would not have recommended any of these (4.00 / 4)
but grey didn't deserve to be tred!

My blog  

[ Parent ]
Thank you, folks! (0.00 / 1)
I appreciate this very much.  

[ Parent ]
They don't know you, Gray (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
The thread was wrecked. (0.00 / 0)
This isn't the first time. Gary has done exactly the same thing on every single one of my posts here. He didn't like the proxy I used for stupidity, and diverted the thread to a discussion of that. If there had been a better proxy for stupidity, I would have used it. It was a pretty good proxy.

There were a lot of things I wanted to talk about, and Gray kept that from happening. I should have ignored him. What does it say about a commenter when not ignoring him is something to apologize for.

Gray is a troll on my threads.  


[ Parent ]
Step Back, Gray, Please (4.00 / 5)
You're actually illustrating John's point rather than commenting on it.  You're behavior on this thread has been a classic example of wonkish focus on minutia as a way of avoiding the larger issue. It's done with a left twist, of course, but that doesn't alter the fact that you've taken a minor point for John's thesis and then done your best to hijack the thread with it.

John's larger point is that "stupid voters" narratives are themselves stupid.  And he's quite right to use education as a proxy, in part because it's a good-enough and actually available proxy, as he points out, and in part because it's already used that way in the sorts of narratives he's writing in opposition to.

You could be contributing to this discussion, simply by raising the same point--that education =/= intelligence--as a reinforcement of John's central thrust, rather than framing it as a "clever dissent".  It's just that sort of cleverness that's symptomatic of what's the matter with the wonk demographic as a whole.  To busy being clever by the sentence to realize they're being foolish by the book.

You're better than that.  I know you are, from countless comments you've made that don't fall into that.  But for some reason there are some things that seem to set you off kilter,  You may have some legitimate issues to raise, that may be the underlying reason.  But with this thread as an example, you don't get to any sort of underlying reason via these responses.  All you do is create a petty drama that makes you seem less capable than I know you really are.

And it starts to make others look bad as well, as they struggle with how to respond.

Our purpose here is not idle discussion.  We're trying to learn lessons and strategize about how to make real political change happen here in America, and the world.  It can be extremely valuable to have the perspective of foreigners contribute to our discussions.  But it can also be maddening when/if they participate as if it were all just a game.  For us here in the US struggling with all this shit, we simply can't afford the luxury of looking at it that way.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Only some points in return (2.00 / 2)
"a classic example of wonkish focus on minutia" Not imho, but even if true, since when has it beecome verboten here to wonkishly point out minutia? Since when is it allowed to assume bad faith of commenters, and TR them for that? Mere commenters would be banned for that!

And also, pls note that triangunation didn't dismiss my point out of hand, like John did, but actually pointed at a possibly larger failure of the Dems focussing only on "wealthy suburbs". And MM points out that this definition of "smart" (and, consquently, "stupid") is showing the self interest of the "education industry", a valid point, even if coming from a conservative. Hmm, looks like at least by some here my comment isn't merely seen as useless nitpicking.

"We're trying to learn lessons and strategize about how to make real political change happen here in America" And we do this by simply copying the established view at social problems, without even questioninjg thir validity for the problm at hand? Strange, I seem to remember John did exactly that when he repudiated the established definition of "populism", as used by "PolSci", in favor of his slf mad on. Hmm, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, or not?


[ Parent ]
This thread has been wrecked (0.00 / 0)
My goal was to talk about 1.) the "stupid voter meme" and what's wrong with it, 2.) the possibility that the "stupid voter" meme comes primarily from the Democratic Party's considerable contingent of voters with graduate education, and 3.) problems rising from the "stupid voter" meme and the exaggerated influence of the highly educated in the Democratic Party.

Instead we talked about 1.) the pros and cons of the proxy I used for "stupid" and 2.) Gray. There has been some discussion of the interesting points, but not much.

Gray has showed up on all of my threads here doing exactly the same thing. The first time I argued respectfully with him, to the point of exasperation. Each succeeding time I became less friendly. At one point I suggested to OL that I might not be cut out for Open Left.

It has been suggested that I, and everyone else just ignore Gray, but that's not my temperament. I apologize to anyone here who thinks that I've behaved inappropriately.


[ Parent ]
Come on, John, this thread hasn't been "wrecked". (0.00 / 1)
Still lots of room in it for comments that are closer to your main point! And if you had simply left "my" (not really mine, I know) branch of the thread alone, so I could discuss the 'education vs. intelligence' issue with MM and triangunation, who knows, maybe something interesting would have come out of it?  

The problem is, as I see it, to look at the comment thread with the expectation that feedback will focus on the points that are important to you, and on those alone. It usually doesn't work this way at OpenLeft, and actually some of the more interesting ideas here have come out of thrads that went a bit astray. Creative thinking needs room, not corsets.

And as for "Gray has showed up on all of my threads here doing exactly the same thing" - firstly, afaik not all of your threads (If I remember this right, there were some stories that didn't interest me). And secondly, I'm just not a "me too" guy who likes to add comments like "greatest story since game 6 of the Bulls vs. the Celtics (huh? Well, google sez, greatest story on earth). I'm not interested in that, but only in finding points where I can add something. Often, this is criticism, but strangely, most folks here still don't call me a troll.

So, I can only restate once more, I'm not singling you out, I'm not stalking you, or up to snipe at your points. And if you see it that way, I'm sorry for that, but I honestly think that's not my fault.


[ Parent ]
Oh, and sure, I should have stayed cool when you posted your comment... (0.00 / 1)
...saying, basically, 'there you go again'. Ranting back wasn't helpful, I know. But sadly, I'm not always listening to my own good advices. Sry.

[ Parent ]
Go to hell, Gray (0.00 / 0)
You diverted the thread to a peripheral issue, and then you got whiny.

Thank you for ignoring some of my threads, if you indeed did so.  


[ Parent ]
If Gray isn't (4.00 / 3)
I am.

I think that the Democrats have been doing this, and, like the argument against calling the voters stupid, I think that, with urban drop-out rates what they are, there is room for the argument.

I think that the Democrats have pandered to wealthy suburbs (much like most colleges have), at the cost of those, as Paul says above, who are "hurting," while taking their votes for granted.  The ACORN scam is a great example of how the urban stereotypes are used to do just this.  

Cities in Crisis
http://www.nea.org/home/15019.htm


[ Parent ]
Gray: Don't you know,,,,,,Education = Smart? (4.00 / 1)
Educaton is supposed to prove that you're smart.  This is education's point of view.  It doesn't have anything to do with smart.  I think that the "smart" moniker has been touted by the education industry to buy more of their product.  

When the Dems lose the Wal-Mart customer, they've lost.

I often quote:  The difference between ignorant and stupid.
Ignorant=You can learn
Stupid=No chance.

Don't assume that we have stupid voters.  The Dems make the mistake thinking they are.



Conservative.(former Money Man)....Bothers you, huh? Gore at Poetry Circle.


[ Parent ]
The acorn of government (4.00 / 2)
does not fall far from the tree of the people.

Intelligence isn't the issue. It's more the moral laziness. The comfort-seeking mindset. The petty tribalism. The narcissism.

Besides, that's why we have politicians: to flatter the voters.

What is said in the salons need not flatter.


You're projecting again. (0.00 / 0)


Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
What's important is the "Vote by Education and Race" section, (0.00 / 0)
which seems to argue against some of your points.

McCain won white college grads by 4 percentage points, and won whites without a college degree by 8 points.

Obama won non-white college grads by 53 points, and won non-whites without a degree by 67 points.

Among whites, a college degree makes one more likely to vote Democratic, and among non-whites, it makes one less likely to vote Democratic.


"Non-white" is a mixed bag (0.00 / 0)
It includes so many demographics that it means very little.

[ Parent ]
In what way? How could it mean "very little" when the voting patterns (4.00 / 2)
between "non-white" and "white" are so different? Age and race tend to determine votes far better than gender or education. This has been true for every Presidential election in my lifetime.

[ Parent ]
Again, you call those without degrees "Obama's best demographic." (4.00 / 1)
This is not true. Whites without degrees are his worst demographic. As far as the split among the educated: I believe it is because of how many business majors there are among the undergraduate population. The humanities and social sciences have been bleeding majors to business for twenty years. And since those in the sciences tend left these days, it only makes sense that those with MAs and PHds (largely taken in the humanities and sciences) tend left as well. Business schools, at all levels, are a joke.  

[ Parent ]
Doesn't really harm my point (0.00 / 0)
Yes, race is a big factor, for a variety of reasons. And uneducated whites are bad and uneducated nonwhites are good. On the net, the uneducated demographic is good for Democrats. Talk about "stupid voters" misrepresnts the nature of the problem.

White racism is obviously a big factor in every white demographic, including the uneducated. Look at this map. In seven southern and border states plus Wyoming Utah, the college-educated Obama vote ranges from 20% to 39%.

My point is just that there's no "stupidity" variable which explains voting Republican. The burden of proof is on those who say that there is. The variables are different, white racism being one of them.

We're totally lost in the weeds now. What I really wanted to talk about was the way that the post-graduate demographic (and it's "stupid voter" cliche) distorts the Democratic Party, but I guess that that is not to be.


[ Parent ]
I agree with your larger point, that Dems are completely divorced from populism. (4.00 / 1)
The fact that uneducated whites vote Republican is not, as you rightly argue, the result of "stupidity," but it is the result of some serious distortion, and this distortion is coming from somewhere.

BTW, I misread the chart: McCain won whites without a degree by 18 points, not 8.

Good diary. It's not so bad a thing to elicit disagreement. We are here to debate, after all.


[ Parent ]
Are you missing an obvious point? (0.00 / 0)
On the one hand, you say

Beyond that, wonks tend to spend their lives in academic, professional, and administrative environments within which open conflict and the expression of anger are taboo (though of course plenty of conniving and backbiting goes on behind the scenes). For this reason wonks tend to be strategically and tactically impaired

OTOH, you have encouraged the Democrats to embrace 'populism' (as you define it :-) ), even though you are now saying that "a more populist campaign would require that the party to work harder to get about the same results".

Since you still want the Democrats to embrace populism (even if the 'pros' who have not been reduced to peasantry still resist this), my question to is, Why wait on the 'pros' and wonks?

jeffroby's plan to storm the Democratic primary gates - the 'Full Court Press' - has some elements of populism, including a key one of not giving first place (even covertly) to the unending desire of the uber-rich class to aggrandize itself, we peasants be damned. Certainly, there's nothing subtle about "Tax the rich to deal with the deficit."! However, the plan could certainly use some vocal,  fire breathing, Democratic-leaning populists, who would not mince words - about 50% of which should be directed at the Democratic elites, who certainly played their part in creating the economic mess we find ourselves in. At the very least, it would give teabaggers (and God bless them for caring enough to show up, even if some of their biggest backers couldn't care less about them) other alternatives to think about.

Do you agree that
1) jeffroby's plan could move the Democratic Party in a more populist direction?
2) it's purposes would be well-served by the emergence of outspoken evangelists, who will verbally attack the Democrats who are selling out the middle class? (Up to and including Obama.)

Certainly, you are not sanguine about the 'pros' reading your diary, and having an epiphany, are you? I mean, before they join the peasantry?

BTW, I find your diaries to be amongst the most fascinating things I read at OpenLeft. Keep up the good work.

435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


The basic idea is good (4.00 / 2)
I'm in favor of primarying Democrats and defining progressives as an independent inside-outside force in the Democratic Party.

I wasn't familiar with Roby's proposal when you mentioned it and only glanced at it just now, so there might be disagreements on points of detail.

One thing I've tried to say is that liberals of a wonkish persuasion in the voting population have let themselves be too easily seduced by mercenary wonks among the party pros. They talk our language and vaguely seem like our kind of people, but they're really our opponents.

We're not insiders, we're outsiders. No matter how much education we've got, we're not elite, we're ordinary people. A PhD is one vote. The elite is defined by power and position, not education.


[ Parent ]
That I buy 110%.... (0.00 / 0)
Insiders vs outsiders, have mores vs have nots.  I fall into the top third that you mention in your diary, but I'm no fool.  I'd rather be at the top of the bottom than the bottom of the top.  

[ Parent ]
Thanks, John (4.00 / 4)
This piece clarifies a number of things so well, I've bookmarked it.

For example, it helps me understand how the Obama team was so effective at co-opting progressive efforts which led to that notion of a veal pen.  That was such a seamless transition it nearly seemed destined.  Based on the way you've characterized Democratic wonks, it probably was.

It also helps me understand why so many Obama supporters continue as armchair political strategists, rather than citizens, as G Greenwald has described.

Taking the liberal side of a populist message to the streets (and alleys, and across the tracks, and byways) is something we've not dome well at all.

I am curious about this vote against their own interest frame that is so often repeated.  I wish I could remember where I read the discussion that between economic interests and cultural interests, it could be explained that some groups will vote against their economic interests because they value their cultural interests more highly.  Whether you label it tribal behavior, group solidarity, or social affiliation that observation resonated for me.


The way forward (4.00 / 3)
There's good reason to believe that the present Democratic Party is unenthusiastic about bringing in new voters (ACORN!!!) primarily because new voters would make inconvenient demands conflicting with the things Democratic pros need to do to massage their big donors. Furthermore, recruiting voters and getting out the vote is harder work than fundraising, and successful fundraising is what brings in the money to pay the pros.

I see two possibilities here. One is to build this sort of organizing capacity independent of the Democratic Party. The LA County Labor Federation, as I have said before, is a good model, where they have built a labor / community alliance that has mobilized people on the ground, allowing them to support candidates at the beginning of their career - making the candidate rather than seeking access after the fact. This has, I believe, had a significant impact on CA politics, and ought to be copied.

Another is to find individual Democrats who would prefer to avoid spending the bulk of their time raising money. Many do detest that. Some might be willing to try a more grassroots approach if only to avoid the unpleasantness of constantly asking for money. If a few could show it was possible, it might open up more possibilities.

A related issue is clean elections, which are both a potential issue to use for mobilizing people and a good way to reduce the necessity of big money in politics. There are possibilities for enacting clean elections in some states, although probably not at the federal level for some time.  But victories at the state level could lay the ground work.

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.


One more point (4.00 / 4)
The UC protests, which include unions, staff, academics, students, and community groups, many seeing how their concerns are intertwined, often using the language of solidarity as they defend an important element of the New Deal state, are an interesting model for how to create a politics that unites the different demographics that make up the Democratic Party in a populist fashion.  The question is: how do you build on that?

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.

[ Parent ]
better and different candidates (4.00 / 4)
i really think this is key. we have to get different kinds of people to run for office, and that means finding ways to make it possible for them to do so. so that they don't have to personally have the money it seems to require these days, for one thing. people who aren't coming from that wonk segment. who aren't lawyers maybe even. i think adding to the mix would help break up some of the groupthink described here and elsewhere in recent days, help bring in some more direct knowledge of "who's hurting and why", as Paul R says. plus a different, broader base of support, outside the normal mechanisms, would help them to be more independent of the often less than stellar party "leadership". i know we have great people running in the current setup, and we'll have terrible people come out of any new system, but more paths seems like it could only help.

not everything worth doing is profitable. not everything profitable is worth doing.

[ Parent ]
Two things (4.00 / 2)
1. Chomsky, Silber, and yours truly on the Dems' rejection of populism: http://vastleft.blogspot.com/2...

2. At the end of your post, you allude to something most important: lousy bipartisan policies. The lack of Democrats representing substantial policy advantages is an essential factor in why it's a lot less "stupid" for people to stick to tribal identity politics, given that the parties differ so little in real terms, such as corporate-first economics, military misadventures, civil liberties, etc.

Dems have many "pragmatic" excuses to eschew real political change, but real political change is what would provide an incentive for Kansas to decide something's relatively the matter with Republicans.

Though the Dems won in 2006 and 2008, it beats me what we won, so forming a populist coalition that supports a new New Deal sounds pretty good to me. Only who will run for office that believes in that kind of post-partisanship, instead of the kind that puts a Creative-Class face on old bottles? And will our so-impressively educated progressives rally behind such a person?


This is one thing that drove me crazy. (4.00 / 3)
The left (mostly) loved "What's the Matter with Kansas" while missing entirely its principal argument.

Frank was not primarily arguing that the voters of Kansas were stupid for ignoring their own economic interests over GOP cultural appeals - it was that neo-liberal anti-populist Democrats were blunting the economic differences that once more strongly differentiated them from Republicans.

He saw the Democrats appeal to those moderate Republicans turned off by religious-right cultural excess, and was notably unimpressed with the duly noted successes that that policy produced, expecting such gains not to be permanent.  

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Stupid not a matter of degrees (4.00 / 3)
I think you miss the point here with the discussion of educational level. I have friends who are really bright and well educated who are nevertheless caught up in the same branding that we have heard all our lives. There are different forms of intelligence. Political intelligence just like the many other examples like emotional IQ, memory, etc requires one to have worked the brain cells related to that area of thought. Nor, is it a matter of merely being in the area. I see people repeatedly spout a clear understanding of history or facts and yet not get meaning.  So, understanding what is happening is a complicated process.  

True But (4.00 / 1)
You go to war with the statistics you have, not the statistics you'd like to have.

And education is clearly a good enough proxy here for the "stupid voter" meme. To many folks here are losing sight of this--John's primary focus here is arguing against an elite narrative that itself makes that sort of equivalency assumption.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I don't think I am missing the point (0.00 / 0)
Maybe I am, but it seems his thesis is the standard liberal argument about how we should treat people. That it is not nice to call people stupid.  That we are all equal.  And, see- here's numbers to show it is elitist to say we are not more equal than people give us credit for being. Maybe I am misunderstanding, but that seems to be the thesis. The problem with the thesis is that the evidence is crap because it does not identity why people say the electorate is politically stupid. Now, can we find a better way to describe what we mean? Yes. Does that change the underlying issue of trying to address a flaw in the electorate? I am not so sure.  Nor, does that excuse the elite for how it manipulates the public. He's right as far as the politics is concerned, but the reality he's trying to capture is far more complicated.  I hope what I just wrote makes sense.  

[ Parent ]
No, I was saying that it's a copout and a smear, is not accurate, and misleads people as to what is really going on. (4.00 / 1)
Thank you Gray.

[ Parent ]
It may be a "standard liberal argument" (4.00 / 1)
that we should treat people nicely and not call them morons but I can't tell you how many times I've argued with people over the years whose main reason for participation in the left blogosphere is precisely because it gives them an opportunity to vent about such "stupidity".  

Such folks get VERY offended when you tell them that it's their JOB as progressives to convince such people.

Let me ask you, how much good has all of Rachel Maddow's teasing of the "teabaggers" done?  It may build ratings but it's probably counterproductive.  Which is not to disparage some of the real reporting she does when she is not in this mode.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Bad Example (4.00 / 3)
I'm with you in principal here.  But the Teabaggers are a mass-marketed delusion, and without push-back--which Rachel Maddow has provided the best of, IMHO--they're exactly the sort of thing that could grow exponentially, particularly with the typical Versailles deference to everything rightwing.

Maddow's teasing of them, as you put it, has helped prevent them from getting a level of legitimacy much greater than they've attained.  I fear you may actually be under the impression that they are as "working class" as they pretend to be.

Well, if Rush and Bill-O are working class, then maybe.  But in reality-land, not so much.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I agree with you (0.00 / 0)
that the Teabaggers are a mass-marketed delusion.  Some of Maddow's exposes of them and their connections have been helpful.  I would differentiate that from the teasing that goes on too much on that show.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

[ Parent ]
I used education as a proxy for intelligence because data were available (4.00 / 3)
I would have used a better proxy if there had one available.

This is a very peripheral, waste-of-time point. My point is 1.) Democrats should not call the voters stupid and b.) it is wrong to say that people vote for Republicans because they're stupid and c.) it's a damaging and far too common error.

The "voters are stupid" meme is just a lazy copout and smear with no real meaning. "Stupid" just means "vote for Republicans".


[ Parent ]
Understanding political IQs is not a waste of time (0.00 / 0)
It provides us a means of understanding whether and why everyone is not on the same page regarding understanding the world around them and possible solutions (if any) to any given problem. I am not even getting into the more complicated idea that what Americans  lack is an emotional political IQ that allows them not to be manipulated. The later can ensnare even the smartest to buy President Obama's branding.

Saying we should not call them stupid seems to be one of those things that makes you a liberal, and me a moderate. I have no problem calling people ignorant or stupid if that is what they are. Your point is possibly a political one. That we should not call them stupid on the political  front because it will hurt their egos, and, thus electoral outcomes. That is true. It will, but ultimately the problem remains- that people lack high political IQs in the U.S.  The question is what can be done about it that will not yield an electoral lose rather than pretending there is not this complication of addressing political IQs that the status quo manipulates through things like branding.  


[ Parent ]
Jesus Christ we're lost in the weeds (4.00 / 1)
I'm perfectly happy to call people stupid as an insult, believe me. But an insult is all it is.

A lot of Democrats say "People vote Republican because they're stupid. Our problem is that the voters are stupid". That misrepresents reality in a damaging way. It's not an analysis or an explanation, just a copout and a smear.

That's what I was talking about. I wanted to go on from there to more interesting things, but that was not to be.

Talking about "low political IQ" instead of stupidity doesn't add much, in my opinion. It's not like political IQ is measurable. We end up about where we started.


[ Parent ]
But It SOUNDS So Much More Sophisticatd And Wonky! (4.00 / 1)
Talking about "low political IQ" instead of stupidity doesn't add much, in my opinion. It's not like political IQ is measurable. We end up about where we started.

The longer this discussion goes on, John, the more I think that the problem is a lot closer to home than I first imagined.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Is it? (0.00 / 0)
Well, I am awaiting for you to explain how we are going to understand the complexity of the situation beyond referring to as hegemony.  

[ Parent ]
I Think We've Got Our Wire's Crossed Here (0.00 / 0)
I'm just saying that nothing is gained by replacing "stupid" with a more sophisticated term.

Show me a more down-home word for "hegemony", and I'll us it.

In fact, there's this: People always talk about "political football."  Well, in that case, I think it's high time we talked about the ground game and the inside line.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Okay- let's don't get caught up in words (4.00 / 1)
Let's talk concepts. You are not going to address hegemony unless you address the circuit (of which voter behavior is a part of it) that allows the hegemony to exist. The key concept is that this is indeed  circuit.

Breaking the circuit of hegemony requires that you understand what is happening around you. That's  really hard thing to do for multiple reasons. Some of it is personal to the voters.  I am not sure how you address that part of the circuit without admitting that some part of it is personal to the voters. Stupid is politically the wrong term to use. May be my replacement term is too.

My point is more fundamental than a word choice. I am fully aware that voters are regularly being asked to plug their political beliefs into two choices that really are only one even when the voters beliefs are more complicated than the choices and some times often the opposite of the choices being offered.

Both parties are neoliberal on economic policy- just to name one example being discussed at daily kos right now. That means that whatever voters vote- they are still getting the same narrow set of policies.  That's the hegemony of ideas.

That being said- it still remains important for voters to realize that there is really only a narrow range of economic choices on the ballot despite what the voters may want personally on issues like the public option.  

Many simply want to vote and be done with the process of considering how that works out in real political terms.  That is the circuit that has to be broken, and to me is the core political IQ element that my words, however inadequate, were trying to reach.  


[ Parent ]
Some Comments (4.00 / 4)
They're kinda all over the place, sorry.

1) I'd appreciate it if you didn't cast the entire group of people who have PhDs and voted for Obama as the "wonk demographic" who are "them" as opposed to "us" (i.e. members of the out group) and responsible for most of the problems in the Democratic party.  That kind of rhetoric tends to cause more problems than it solves. (not to say you intended it this way--you probably didn't--but that's how it came across to me)

2) Most voters are politically stupid, and that's regardless of their education level or who they vote for, or even their level of political engagement.  And as much as it's true that people are manipulated by the media and advertising and whatnot, it's also true that you always, on some level, have to let yourself be manipulated.

Is this elitism?  It used to be, until I realized that the "elite" are just as stupid as the "masses," just in different ways (and a lot of time in the exact same way).  Which is about when I turned from a libertarian to a liberal--but I digress.

3) I completely agree with this part:

Compared to Republicans and conservatives, Democrats and progressives have done a terrible job of developing and propagating their message. For progressives, developing new media and new forms of communications is the most important task.

Indeed, as 2009 wore on, I think this just became more and more clear.  I just think you're arguing for it in the wrong way.

Think of it this way: if you truly believed that voters are stupid, then why would you use all the highhanded, above the fray, "wonkish" rhetoric that you criticize so admirably?  Wouldn't you at least cynically dumb it down to make it more appealing to the voters you "know" are stupid--you know, like the Republicans do? (or maybe it would be more accurate to say "like the Social Dominators do")

It makes more sense to think about it the other way around, IMO.  "Wonks" use that kind of rhetoric because "they" believe that reasonable, rational argumentation will always produce the right answer that everyone who's "reasonable" will agree to (scare quotes because I don't believe this is some monolithic demographic group defined by education level).  Then that kind of rhetoric fails at the ballot box, and they justify it by saying that "well, what can you do?  The voters are stupid" and then continue along as they always did, because they care more about being "smart" than winning elections.

Or to put it simply, the problem isn't the "voters are stupid" meme, it's the "we are intelligent" meme.  If we could get more people to realize that reasonable, high-handed, rational debate is politically dumb as bricks and that the true smart thing to do is engage in dirty message propagating, maybe things would change.  

Maybe.


Excellent Point (0.00 / 0)
George Lakoff has been saying this for years.

Problem is, wonks don't like being told they're dumb any more than anyone else does.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
If the shoe fits. (4.00 / 1)
I'd appreciate it if you didn't cast the entire group of people who have PhDs and voted for Obama as the "wonk demographic" who are "them" as opposed to "us" (i.e. members of the out group) and responsible for most of the problems in the Democratic party.  That kind of rhetoric tends to cause more problems than it solves. (not to say you intended it this way--you probably didn't--but that's how it came across to me)

Some people deserve to be kicked. I suspect that the ones I've wrongly kicked will get over it soon enough.


[ Parent ]
Sorry, but I don't really understand this comment (4.00 / 1)
You say "some people deserve to be kicked," then you admit that you've wrongly kicked some people, but hand-wave that away as a minor concern.  I think you're arguing that some percentage of people with PhDs deserve to be kicked, and that it's...too hard or something to just target them specifically, so you aimed at the whole demographic, and if that made your statement false boo hoo it doesn't really matter?

Rhetoric is important.  You spend a lot of your post arguing that.  Castigating the entire population of people with PhDs--while knowing that you are not being entirely truthful--isn't the first step on the path to anti-intellectualism, it is anti-intellectualism.

And anti-intellectualism is corrosive to any argument it's used to defend, liberal or conservative.


[ Parent ]
They'll get over it David (4.00 / 1)
There's a specific category of people which thinks it's smarter than it is. A lot of them have advanced degrees, and almost all are college graduates. They display the classic signs of elitism, to the point of giving up on the possibility of democracy. They're extremely influential in American public opinion and especially within the Democratic Party.

I had to call them something, and what I called them is wonks. "Wonk" more specifically means an expert, probably in some aspect of politics, but an expert who only understands his own area of expertise and doesn't see the big picture. They are my specific target. I do make a distinction between real, mercenary wonks working in politics and wannabe wonks who thik that they're wonks even though they're really outsiders. We're in an unusual period of hitory, in that the highly educated (the 10% with masters degrees plus) are actually a mass demographic to be bamboozled like any other group of voters.

I'm not planning to purge people with advanced degrees, or drive them from the party, or anything like that. I'm just trying to get their attention in order to make a point.


[ Parent ]
See, I agree with this comment (0.00 / 0)
A lot of the people with advanced degrees (and some with only college degrees, and even a few without even that) are exactly as you describe.  I just don't think you should stereotype an entire demographic.  Doing that would tend to turn off people before getting their attention, I would think.

[ Parent ]
He's right. (4.00 / 2)
My husband has a PhD and I have a masters, we both voted for Obama. I know perfectly well who and what John is talking about and I agree with him completely.

Any educated person thin-skinned enough to take offense at this post is part of the problem.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
It's not about taking offense (0.00 / 0)
It's about saying what's true instead of what's false (and a few other things, but mostly that).

Wonks with post-graduate degrees are a significant voting demographic playing a major role in the Democratic Party.  9.9% of the American adult population has advanced degrees, but because they vote more reliably than other groups they comprise 17% of the actual voters.

Re-reading it, I guess he never explicitly states that everyone with an advanced degree is a wonk, but he does imply it strongly with the statistics, IMO.  This is really a minor issue--just a one line disclaimer or something and the problem would go away.

[ Parent ]
Mervenary insider wonks vs. rank and file mass wonks (4.00 / 1)
It makes more sense to think about it the other way around, IMO.  "Wonks" use that kind of rhetoric because "they" believe that reasonable, rational argumentation will always produce the right answer that everyone who's "reasonable" will agree to (scare quotes because I don't believe this is some monolithic demographic group defined by education level).  Then that kind of rhetoric fails at the ballot box, and they justify it by saying that "well, what can you do?  The voters are stupid" and then continue along as they always did, because they care more about being "smart" than winning elections.

I pretty much agree with this, with regard to the rank-and-file educated or intellectualistic Democrats. They're frustrated and baffled and vent and blame the voters according to their own educated prejudices, rather than trying to figure out what went wrong and what should be done instead.

With regard to the insider wonks the story is entirely different. They have jobs to do, and they're willing to dumb things down for the voters, but their jobs restrict what they can do because they don't dare offer the voters too much. The Democratic Party works for its donors, not for the voters, and they don't want to get in a position where they have to deliver, because they don't intend to deliver.

While writing this series I've gradually come to understand how the mercenary wonks working within the Democratic Party (and the media -- e.g. Chuck Todd) are a completely different thing than the rank and file educated wonks out in the community (10%+ of the electorate). Mass wonks are outsiders to recruit and bamboozle like anyone else, and one way you recruit them is by letting them think they're insiders. So you end up with all these abstruse discussions of startegy and tactics and 17-dimension chess. (One thing to admire about Jane Hamsher is that she understand is that her job is to advocate, not to make strategy, so she refuses to get sucked in to the insider strategy games.)


[ Parent ]
Fair enough (0.00 / 0)
Though I still don't completely understand why the Democratic "mercenary wonks" tend to be so bad at their jobs.  Even when they talk strategy, they get it wrong.  Is it just because of the horribly bad standards they use for promotion?

I don't know very much about this stuff. :/


[ Parent ]
I have a theory about that too (0.00 / 0)
Republican wonks (e.g. Karl Rove) have more of a business-and-crime background and are better able to deal with chance and uncertainty and better able to take advantage of transient opportunities. Democratic wonks have a social science background, and the whole illusion of social science is that it's possible to know what's going on and plan accordingly.

The College Republicans are a criminal organization, or very nearly, and most go into serious dirty tricks before they graduate from school. Rove has one year of college.

Beyond that, and this is really more important the other factors I've been discussing here, the Democrats have been bought and often need to seem to be defeated in order to get off the hook for promises they didn't intend to keep.


[ Parent ]
Fine, call me an elitist... (4.00 / 2)
But when Sarah Palin polls even within 6% of Obama, then yeah... voters are stupid.  And this has nothing to do with education level really.  There's plenty of theoretically "smart" well-educated people who would like to see Sarah Palin as president, and to me this requires no further explanation or rationale other than "People are stupid".

But (0.00 / 0)
isn't "stupid" just a proxy for "doing things I can't understand"?

"Why would anyone do that?" we ask ourselves. And when we can't for the life of us come up with a plausible answer, "Just stupid, I guess," is the answer we settle on.

In everyday life, dealing with co-workers or whatever, that may be a good-enough answer.  But in politics, not so much.

I've got a diary I'm just finishing up on the deep background of global warming denialism where I try to wrestle with what's really going on with these people.

IMHO, if we want to get them to vote for us, it's stupid for us to give up trying.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Oh, I didn't say that we should give up trying... (0.00 / 0)
But to me current current American politics is about convincing these "stupid" people to vote for you.  I know this is extremely cynical, but fine.. that's what I think it boils down to now.

And yeah, I get the whole "Well, the people in power are sucking, so I need to vote for someone else" dynamic, but people should be smarter than "other people = Sarah Palin" or whatever... but, they're not, so politicians end up having to pander to whatever group they seem to be losing to the "other guy".  Hence, Obama's reversal on off-shore drilling during the campaign.  Yeah, that was annoying as hell, but probably something necessary for him to do at the time.


[ Parent ]
You are stupid and should stay completely out of politics (2.40 / 5)
To me this requires no further explanation or rationale other than "People are stupid".

This kind of self-satisfied, un-analytic, useless, finger-pointing stupidity is exactly what I've been talking about. You don't even care as long as you can point fingers and feel pleased with yourself.


[ Parent ]
I don't care for personal assaults.. (4.00 / 1)
I didn't personally assault anyone in my post, certainly.  I think my view is pretty similar to DavidN expressed above, or what Bill Maher expresses on a weekly basis.

I don't see how I'm "pointing fingers and feel[ing] pleased with [myself]", but whatever.

As for un-analytic, I suppose you're right... the post wasn't meant to be a treatise on why voters are stupid, just a short point I was making about the state of our politics.


[ Parent ]
You don't care for personal assaults. (0.00 / 0)
My, my, my. Most idiots LOVE to be called idiots.

Bill Maher is pretty useless. I don't really agree with David N, but his post had some content. Your post said nothing.

If we're going to calling people stupid, I'm game.  


[ Parent ]
I didn't call anyone here an idiot. (4.00 / 1)
As this is more or less a "strategy" discussion, my post was about the population at large, or the more non-political people who are "stupid" or "politically stupid" as DavidN described.

[ Parent ]
OK, fine. I'll restate. (4.00 / 2)
There is a category of idiots among liberals and Democrats: the people who think that they've said something intelligent or meaningful when they say things like To me this requires no further explanation or rationale other than "People are stupid"..

The reason why this idiotic statement is idiotic is that a.) it's just ignorant venting which sheds no light on what's happening and b.) it's actually wrong: the real problem is different -- not stupidity in any meaningful sense but complacency, bigotry, resentment, fanaticism, and so on.

This kind of idiotic statement is especially idiotic when it is made as a response to a post arguing that such statements are idiotic.

If the shoe fits.  


[ Parent ]
It is a culture war, fought in cultural stereotypes (4.00 / 4)
This illuminates two clichés of American political debate: first, the "elitist Democrat" idea, and second, the culture wars. Those who most resent the elite Democrats are themselves college graduates, and as Gelman recently has recently shown, the culture war is a split within the more prosperous and better-educated class, and not a split between educated liberals and ignorant conservatives. Democrats often speak of the religious right as hillbillies and trailer trash, but they're more likely to be well-off, complacent college graduates.

It's an excellent post, John.  
But I don't think it's about intelligence, education or degrees.  It's about stereotypes, and damaging the oppositions perception within "Swing" areas.
My thought is simply that, as far as the culture war goes, the Democratic, Progressive failure has been in attempting to find any way possible of winning the culture war by not fighting it, which is generally attempting to redefine it.  This makes them look unwilling to fight for their constituents when they are being attacked, or, in a word, weak.
I think it's obviously regional, and that, you're right, "stupid" is just an insult...  However it is an insult that meshes with regional stereotypes, like "Hill-billy."

The culture war results in hot-button issues, that make a difference to some populations.  As in any war (even one that is this close to completely fictional), there is a campaign to demoralize and dehumanize the opposition (Metrosexual, limosene liberal, illegal alien, gang-banging drug-dealing well-fare recipient, ivory tower elitist, etc, etc) . Those who believe the narrative of the culture warrior are bound to be called stupid by those being insulted for not understanding the truth about that community, and sticking to what are stupid stereotypes.  It is "like begets like."
Unfortunately, while the Republicans have been taking up for "Real America," the other side of the culture war has been left to it's own devices, while the "Elite Democrats" have done amazing gymnastics to NOT be associated with those defined as not living in "Real America."  This means many populations that reside within city limits are frequently "thrown under the bus" to preserve electability.  Hillary was an excellent example of this during the primary.  
In a nut-shell, the culture war is rural and urban America fighting over suburbia.  Sadly, both sides are defined by the conservative frames, because "Elite Democrats" don't want to get their hands dirty.
Going forward, I wish the Democrats would stop playing defense and defending the people who are attacking, and get a positive frame for urban America, which could use their help right about now.


Thanks, John (4.00 / 6)
Thanks for an excellent post.  I wouldn't feel too bad that it got to some degree hijacked.

It is a sign that you are ruffling the feathers that need to be ruffled.

There are far too many folks in the "Netroots" whose main reason for participation is that it gives them a chance to vent against the "morons".  Such participants are useless to the extent they're not actually harmful.

And since no one else has pointed it out, let me give a shout out to your money sentence:

Often in progressive discussions you will hear someone say that our real problem is the stupidity of the voters. Sometimes this is just trolling or harmless venting, but far too often it's seriously intended.  This is a disastrous conclusion and amounts to quitting: you can't win by running against the electorate.

Emphasis mine.  Liberals who whine about moronic voters are merely making excuses for our failures.  As Bob Somerby likes to point out - why are these stupid people continually able to kick our asses?

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


Quite So! (0.00 / 0)
It's fine to vent about people's stupidity.  As long as you fess up that you're included as well.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
As a famous philosopher once said (0.00 / 0)
but the truth is, O men of Athens, that God only is wise; and in this oracle he means to say that the wisdom of men is little or nothing; he is not speaking of Socrates, he is only using my name as an illustration, as if he said, He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing.

Sorry, it's a deep-seated urge in me at this point to quote Apologia at every possible opportunity.

[ Parent ]
I frame it in terms of "laziness" (4.00 / 3)
People who just sit back on their high horse and declare that low information voters are "stupid" are just plain lazy. Writing off the population as "stupid" conveniently absolves you of all responsibility: the "intractably stupid" cannot be worked with, cannot be educated, cannot be helped. Ergo, why should you bother with all the heavy lifting of outreach, media reform, electoral reform, movement organizing, etc?

As far as the media and think tanks go, it makes my head explode that the moneyed folks on the left don't seem to care or understand the importance of getting our own media machine going in earnest to combat the steamroller from the Right. I often wonder if it's because at some level they view that kind of thing as "beneath" them somehow.

Thanks for taking the time to post this, John.  


Remember, too, Journalists Need MAs (0.00 / 0)
Since the 1980s at least, journalists for big media have had to have an MA from a serious journalism graduate school to be hired and promoted. It explains why most journalists are not ink-stained wretches haunting bars anymore but, instead, are more concerned with status and fitting in.

My key takeaway is that the more education you have the more likely you are to avoid direct confrontation in any dispute. Partly it is cultural, from what I see, partly the more education you have the more you realize issues can be complex and not easily expressed. I had not thought about how this higher ed dynamic might impact politics.

Thanks for another insightful post.


Bingo! (0.00 / 0)
I've argued elsewhere that the professionalization of journalism made journalism significantly worse, and I wasn't kidding.

Professionals protect their own and take it for granted that outsiders don't understand what professionals are do, so that outsider criticism should be ignored. Doctors are famous about closing ranks behind even bad doctors, and are extremely resistant to outside criticisms of the field in general.

There's a joke here. Decades ago a friend of a friend of my brothers went to a fancy hairdressing school to become a professional hairdresser (NOT barber). My brother needed a haircut, so he went to her and paid three times what he normally paid for the haircut. He got the latest thing in haircuts, but he hated it and got an old-fashioned haircut at the regular price the next day.

Anyway, there was a recent debate between Chuck Todd and Glenn Greenwald in which Todd stubbornly defended his smart but brain-dead horse-race reporting. He didn't back up an inch. Halperin (at ABC, I think)  defended he-said / she-said journalism a couple of years ago (sorry, no links). He claimed that for journalists to point out that one side of a dispute is lying would be "injecting opinion into the story" -- journalists are stenographers. Like Todd, Halperin spoke with complete confidence, as though his critics were (that word again) stupid.

Bob Somerby is in his tenth year criticizing major-media political reporting. There's been no improvement, quite the opposite. Dean Baker and Brad DeLong critique brain-dead economics reporting several times a week each. The people they critique are almost all proud, highly paid professionals.

In journalism careerism trumps professionalism, though, and many journalists don't know the difference. For a careerist, success is its own reward, and they do what they have to do to attain success. Professionalism tends to be a way of boosting morale and defending against the lay audience. There are a lot of good journalists whose careers were ended or blacked because of excessively good reporting, and the people still in the biz have learned their lessons from that.


[ Parent ]
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