What can be done either to pressure Lieberman / Snowe, or to circumvent 60 votes?

by: Chris Bowers

Fri Dec 11, 2009 at 13:07


When thinking about how to make the health care bill better, at this point there are two main questions:

  1. What can be done to make either Lieberman or Snowe support better legislation? At this point, it appears we only need either Lieberman or Snowe to achieve a health care deal with vast Medicaid expansion, smallish Medicare buy-in, moderate subsidies, and a new regulatory regime.  Keeping in mind that there are many fights left to be had, and Mike's warning that no deal is final until it lands on the President's desk, for all intents and purposes only one more vote is needed to pass this bill. That vote, unfortunately, needs to come from either Lieberman or Snowe.

    OR, if that fails

  2. What can be done to circumvent the need for 60 votes altogether? If the current framework of the Senate compromise is not good enough for you, and you would only be willing to support something better, then you need to figure out a way to circumvent the need for 60 votes altogether.  A 51-vote Senate would produce a bill comparable, and perhaps even better, than the one produced by the House.  Achieving a 51-vote Senate requires either reconciliation or nuking the filibuster entirely.
Of all the critics of the various campaigns for better health legislation, they don't advance the campaign unless they offer solutions for the current predicament we face.  We can save the broader post-mortems on how the fight could have been waged differently from the beginning for later.  Right now, we need to deal with the problem at hand, rather than look into the past.

I personally don't have particularly comprehensive answers to either of those two questions.  In the extended entry, I describe what strategies I can think of for getting to 51 votes, and for pressuring Lieberman and Snowe.  Hopefully, the discussion that ensues can lead to something more comprehensive.

Chris Bowers :: What can be done either to pressure Lieberman / Snowe, or to circumvent 60 votes?
  1. On Lieberman.  Given that we have already defeated him in a Democratic primary, and that he currently has a 2-1 disapproval rate among Connecticut Democrats, it is difficult to imagine what further electoral pressure progressive activists can directly place on Lieberman.  Any further pressure must be applied from the Senate Democratic Caucus itself, which could strip Lieberman of his chairmanship.

    We could take action against the overall caucus for not taking any action on Lieberman, given that the overwhelming majority of Democratic Senators refuse to threaten any punitive action against Lieberman whatsoever.  Such pressure could involved an organized donor strike to not donate to any incumbent Democratic Senate campaigns at all in 2010, until action is taken against Lieberman.

    Then again, even if that strike did actually pressure Senate Dems into taking action against Lieberman, it still isn't a guarantee that he would sign onto the health care bill.  With most of his base of support now coming from Republicans, he might just take his business and switch parties altogether, while still opposing the health care bill.

  2. On Snowe  One problem we face with Snowe is that Republicans actually have more leverage over her than Democrats.  For one thing, she is more vulnerable to a Republican primary challenge than she is to a Democratic challenge in the general election.  Also, Republicans can remove her committee seats and / or seniority, while Democrats cannot.  

    One thing Snowe does like is the power she gains from playing both sides.  As such, perhaps threatening to cut her out of any dealmaking with Democrats in the future is the right way to approach her.  It strikes me as doubtful that either the White House or Senate Democratic leadership would make such a threat, but it is the best pressure point I can think of on Snowe.

  3. Getting 51 votes in the Senate. We could just nuke the filibuster altogether, but that isn't going to happen. (yet)

    We could also push to get a small group of Senators who just defeat the whole bill, and say it is reconciliation or nothing.  The best bets on that front are Burris and Sanders (Russ Feingold is opposed to using reconciliation), given that Burris has nothing to lose and Sanders tends to be a progressive iconoclast.

    To pull this off, you probably need both Sanders and Burris.  Otherwise, the Democratic leadership and the White House will just cut whatever deal they can get with both Lieberman and Snowe, triggering a conference committee (or even just going straight to the President's desk).  Problem is, Bernie Sanders actually likes the new Senate deal with a Medicare buy-in more than he liked the opt-out public option.  So, for this strategy to even get off the ground, you need Lieberman to state that he will filibuster a bill with a Medicare buy-in.  That hasn't happened yet, although it might soon.

  4. House Progressives: If all that fails, then House Progressives could threaten to kill the bill in conference committee, and then demand reconciliation.  Raul Grijalva has indicated that he might vote against the Senate deal, so this is a possibility. Then again, Dennis Kucinich likes the deal (because of the Medicare buy-in), so it isn't clear that there has been a net loss of Progressive votes so far.

    Further, as I mentioned yesterday, it would be extremely difficult for most House Progressives to vote against the Medicaid expansion in the bill.  Doing so would actually open them up to primary challenges in their district, where more right-wing candidates could easily outflank them.  There are a lot of people in all Progressive districts who would be helped by the Medicaid expansion, and the health care bill still has its highest level of support in Progressive districts.

    Finally, the Senate deal is likely to have won over some "no" votes in the House.  So, even if a handful of Progressives threaten to sink it, that probably won't be enough to block final passage anyway.

Perhaps I am not creative enough, but those are the best ideas I can come up with right now.  The best one, I think, is using Sanders and Burris to cancel out Lieberman and Snowe if Lieberman opposes the Medicare buy-in.

If you have other ideas on how to pressure either Lieberman or Snowe, or on how to get to reconciliation, I'd love to hear it.


Tags: , , , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
Imho it's useless. Kill the filibuster instead. (4.00 / 1)
And then, of course, forget about this compromise, but go all in for a meaningful reform that 51 Senators (or even only 50+Biden) support. Dems already wasted enough time on Lieberman. Enough already. For every well meaning progressive comes a time where he has to admit that he just hunted a fata morgana, and that the solution is not more of the same, but trying something totally different. Like creating a Phoenix out of junk, for instance.

And strip Leiberman of everything.... (4.00 / 2)
...tear the damn sleeves off his suit live on C-SPAN, as far as I'm concerned....

[ Parent ]
I disagree (4.00 / 1)
I don't want to know the answer to the question "boxers or briefs?"

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
Especially since there's a third alternative. Britney Spears' underwear. (4.00 / 2)
Exactly. What underwear?
EEEEEK!

[ Parent ]
that's a mental image I did not need (4.00 / 1)
I'll go throw up now...

[ Parent ]
Using the Chuck Connors/Branded standard.... (0.00 / 0)
...nothing above the waist is involved.  ;-)

[ Parent ]
Really, give them this weekend to think this through... (0.00 / 0)
..and make it clear that this is the last straw, no more compromises. And if they won't come on board, use plan B from outer space. Involving nuclear weapons.

good stuff, Chris (4.00 / 2)
This is what we need to know, and it's the crux of the matter at this point. It sure does anger me that the only bill that can seemingly get that 60th vote will be an ugly Rube-Goldberg contraption that's about a quarter of what it could be and a tenth of what it should be.  All to placate 3-4-5 corporate Democrats.  

Republicans and those Dems are hopeless and couldn't give less of a shit if the whole thing blows up; it's why progressives keep 'giving in' because they know that even some incremental weak bill has to pass.  I can't blame them, really.  Reality does suck.


Lieberman might actually end up being a hero (4.00 / 1)
(or Nelson) by forcing the Senate into reconciliation with a demand that is a bridge too far for either the Senate Dems or the progressive caucus in the house.

I think its much more likely that reconciliation will be pursued over the option of killing health care reform altogether.

John McCain won't insure children


The obstacle would become a hero? Prolly not. (0.00 / 0)
He will be the loser. Especially for his blue dog collegues who will see their influence go up in smoke when their votes aren't needed anymore.

[ Parent ]
Been saying this for weeks (0.00 / 0)
I think its much more likely that reconciliation will be pursued over the option of killing health care reform altogether.

Reconciliation will create it's own momentum when it becomes clear failure is the only other option.

Getting 60 votes is like trying to squeeze a semi-filled balloon until it bursts -- there are too many sides, too many moving parts -- there's always going to be some uncontained/unsatisfied sides. There's no way to fully contain/satisfy every last ego. The only way to 60 is complete and total capitulation by some parties, which (hopefully) ain't gonna happen.

Self-refuting Christine O'Donnell is proof monkeys are still evolving into humans


[ Parent ]
Wrong (0.00 / 0)
There is always the Democratic alternative - fold on all our demands and priorities in order to satisfy a handful of conservatives. That's the most likely outcome of all of this.

Making the so-called progressive block more accountable -- so that they actually stand their ground -- might help, but how does one do that?


[ Parent ]
Already addressed... (0.00 / 0)
The only way to 60 is complete and total capitulation by some parties,...


Self-refuting Christine O'Donnell is proof monkeys are still evolving into humans

[ Parent ]
"At this point, it appears we only need either Lieberman or Snowe" (0.00 / 0)
and that's the same effing point we have been standing at for months now!

Rid should start making the case that there is a dire Senate crisis going on for a long time now, show the numbers of all the filibuster, and point to the majority vote rule in the constitution. And then declare he sees no other way to keep Congress working than going nuclear on the filibuster. Maybe the threat will make Lieberman think twice. If not, let's roll. Reid should at least go down fighting, rather than waste his time with all those useless compromises.


I think the strategy is obvious... (4.00 / 8)
...even though nobody seems to be talking about it.

Harry Reid announces that there WILL be a vote on a bill with his public option. Force everyone to be counted on the record.

But also announce, if it fails, an even stronger public option will be pushed via reconciliation, which only needs 51 votes.

This answers both of your questions. It forces those like Lieberman to vote yes on a vote to the Reid public option in order to avoid a stronger one. And if he doesn't, provides an avenue for passing it with 51 votes.

And when I say stronger, I mean a really strong version...plus the Medicare thing. Why not? In the words of Howard Dean, "We can do both."


That makes too much sense. (4.00 / 2)
Will. Not. Happen.  Cause it could work.  

[ Parent ]
that sounds good! (4.00 / 2)
And when I say stronger, I mean a really strong version...plus the Medicare thing. Why not?

why not lowering the medicare age to 0?


[ Parent ]
You, of course, assume... (4.00 / 1)
...nether regions are present in the Senate at the Democratic Party's Senate leadership.

Love the idea, though.


[ Parent ]
That would do it (4.00 / 2)
But how do we make that happen?

No need to respond in the comments. Some discussions can be less public, if that is better.


[ Parent ]
Good point. (0.00 / 0)
But then, what? Secured chat channel?

[ Parent ]
This might work (4.00 / 1)
and could be used for other controversial bills that stall.  However, bills would still be subject to months of negotiation before the reconciliation option was used because we all know how important being bipartisan is inside the Village.  But the Dems need to legislate NOW, or they will go down in flames next November.  They should press the big red button today.

[ Parent ]
Uh, that bill HAS been stalled for months now. (0.00 / 0)
So, why should it be difficult to make the case for reconciliation?

[ Parent ]
Never Happen (0.00 / 1)
I wish progressives would stop deluding themselves into thinking that either reconciliation or the 'nuking' of the filibuster is viable - they aren't. Reconciliation was NEVER meant to be used for anything as huge as the remaking of 17% of the U.S. economy and circumventing long-established Senate rules with parliamentary trickery to get as partisanly split a bill as this one passed would be immediately (and correctly) recognized for the bludgeoning of the legislative process that it would be. Oh and by the way, once Repubs got finished vaporizing Dems with it as a '10 and '12 campaign topic the left will be lucky to have a voice in national policymaking for a generation. It's basically the same argument for this 'nuke the filibuster' nonsense. Senate rules governing legislative process have existed since the country was created and the filibuster has been around as a viable check on excesses of the majority for 172 years - no Senate is ever going to kill it.  Can those who are kidding themselves into believing that either of these avenues are open please wake up?  Health Care Reform either passes on its merits and within the framework of long-established legislative procedure or it fails, legislative life goes on and the sponsoring party takes its lumps.  End of story.

[ Parent ]
And once again I have to ask: Are you a conservative? (0.00 / 0)
Because then we could spare all the eforts trying to convince you.

And this comment, btw, makes me question your progressive credentials:
http://www.openleft.com/showCo...
Not the only comment that looks as if you're trolling us...


[ Parent ]
Gross misrepresentation of history (4.00 / 2)
The filibuster as we experience it today has only existed since the 1970's, and the persistent "filibuster everything" strategy now adopted by the Republicans only started in the 1990's. Read a book.

[ Parent ]
I disagree with your argument about the virtues of the filibuster (0.00 / 0)
but I do agree that it's unlikely that the Senate would vote to get rid of it, or that it'll pass HCR without it.

[ Parent ]
May happen organically (0.00 / 0)
If/when there's irreconcilable failure to find a 60 vote compromise they're going to left with a decision on what to do with the Reid introduced bill. Do they simply withdraw it? Then what? Or do they just act on it and let the chips fall? Then what?

My guess is there's too much at stake to allow a true failure moment. Any action will have a back-up plan, so once they are forced to dispose of Reid as is, they're going to have to confront the "then what" question. Reconciliation is really the only viable answer to that question and should be seen as a natural cudgel.  

Self-refuting Christine O'Donnell is proof monkeys are still evolving into humans


[ Parent ]
I like this (0.00 / 0)
especially if we can get a really good deal under reconciliation.

Before we do this, though, we need a secret whip count on who would go along with it.  I have a feeling that there wouldn't be 50 or 51 votes for even a Reid opt-out PO under reconciliation.  Quite a few Senators would refuse to go along with reconciliation.


[ Parent ]
can we offer lieberman's chair to snowe? (4.00 / 2)
will one of them blink before the other?

Kick Lieberman out of the caucus! This should make him lose th (4.00 / 1)
And then vote for a new chair. Not being a Dem any longer, Dem caucus rules about seniority don't apply to Lieberman any more.

[ Parent ]
That's kind of interesting (4.00 / 1)
Buy Snowe's vote with a committee chair.

Not bad.


[ Parent ]
The only answer is complete surrender (0.00 / 0)
to Snowe and Lieberman, and then the President will have soemthing he can call "reform."

I see it coming.  


Cross-Issue Pressure (4.00 / 1)
I'd love to threaten Lieberman through punishing his constituency, but I'm not sure if there are enough votes to actually do something punitive towards Israel.

What are Olympia Snowe's legislative priorities?  Other than maximizing her own power for the sake of power, of course.  Vow to block her on those, even if they are things that Democrats tend to support, out of spite.  Automatically vote against anything she sponsors, even if they are good ideas.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


Seems like some other Republican (0.00 / 0)
Could demand some massive home-district concessions in exchange for a "yes" vote at this point.  The Republican caucus has basically ceded all of their power to Snowe and Lieberman.  

fleeced (0.00 / 0)
What we need is an annual Nobel Fleece Prize.

Reid, Lieberman, Baucus, Obama Inc. have been fleecing us from the get-go. They are creatures of Wall Street through and through. They embody the most insidous aspect of "democracy" in America: the gaping chasm between the rhetoric and the reality. They are the heart and the soul of crony capitalism.

This is not about Democrats and Republicans. That's a red herring of the mainstream media. It is about the systemic revolving door mentality between New York and Washington. It is about the impotence of the left in either exposing it or turning it around.

Every liberal and progressive should focus the beam on organizing against it. This is the prize for all the eyes. Everything else is clearly secondary. Democracy is bought and paid for in America. Period. Either that stops or the fleecing will just grow and grow. After all, what is to stop it if it can get away with moral outrages on this scale at precisely the time when millions of Main Street Americans are primed to rise up mad as hell and "not take it anymore".

And yet why are so many of them going over to BeckWorld instead--to the reactionaries who are basically pimps for Wall Street and the health industrial complex?

How can this be changed?


Let it fail. (0.00 / 0)
I do not believe that our president will ever let real healthcare reform pass.  And if it looks like the current bill, better to kill it anyway.

problems beyond the 60 (4.00 / 2)
i agree with your assessments of the dim likelihoood of ways to get around the problems caused by the 60 vote requirement.

but now we're seeing Reid burying reimportation of drugs from Canada and that has 60 votes.

their goals just are not our goals. they use 60 votes and other procedural issues as excuses, but when it comes to it, what they're doing is what they want done. i am pretty pessimistic that any "pounding away" we might do or not do is going to change that.

not everything worth doing is profitable. not everything profitable is worth doing.


Reid is in dire straits at home. He can be pressured. (4.00 / 1)
Progressives should be much tougher on him. Make it clear that he is held hostage, uh, personally responsible for the passing of the bill. Or else, goodbye grassroots support for 2010.

[ Parent ]
Free him to take a better paying job as a lobbyist in a year? Oh noes teh Horrors! (4.00 / 1)
43% of all MoCs return as lobbyists after leaving office.

http://www.citizen.org/pressro...


[ Parent ]
You have a point (4.00 / 1)
but c'mon, going from Senate Majority Leader to some lobbyist is a big step down.  You have to take his ego into account.

Also, Reid might be weak but he's not evil or malicious.  He doesn't strike me as the "ah, fuck the country, I'm gonna be a lobbyist anyway" type.


[ Parent ]
the procedural issues are used as excuses for doing what they want (4.00 / 1)
they use 60 votes and other procedural issues as excuses, but when it comes to it, what they're doing is what they want done.

this, i think, is exactly right. and it is delusional not to consider it a strong possibility. any tactic devised has to take this into account. the fact that we are not planning for this possibility, and have not been, means we continue to get punked.

btw, i'm not pulling this out of my a**. i watched the fisa fight very very carefully, especially in the house (but also in the senate), and the pretense of using procedural issues as excuses happened again and again.

i even documented it in excruciating detail in the hopes we all could learn from that experience:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/...

don't be fooled again.


[ Parent ]
hopeful (0.00 / 0)
Lieberman may not mind being identified as the man who brought down health care but I sincerely doubt that (given the state of the economy and prices for health care in Maine) Snowe or Collins are willing to live with that. So I think in the end one of them-or both-will get on board. I would love to be a fly on the wall.

What can be done? (4.00 / 1)
Nothing- the same people are involved. When progressives are ready to change behavior let me know.  

Thanks (4.00 / 3)
Thanks, you have been very helpful.

At some point, we will come to you for the solution to all problems.


[ Parent ]
Yes , personalize it to me rather than seeing (4.00 / 2)
this situation as a mirror of why giving up on the public option was a strategic mistake. The insurance companies see blood in the water.  This was as predictable as any of the other moves I have predicted. I am not that bright CHris. It is that progressive make it too easy to know how to roll them.  By the way, while you are busy trying to prevent, there are other leaks forming:

Loop holes in the bill that I predicted would create junk insurance incentives

http://www.dailykos.com/story/...


[ Parent ]
Come on, Bruh, Chris is right. (0.00 / 0)
This defeatist approach isn't helpful right now. Look at the ideas others have provided. Making Lieberman unstable by threatening to use reconciliation for a stronger bill. Or bribing Snowe away with Lieberman's chairmanship. That's the constructive thinking that's necessary now.

And, ok, my inisting on the filibuster isn't a very helpful plan either (because it's questionable if the votes are there for that). But it's still better than nothing.


[ Parent ]
You both confuse being real with defeatism (4.00 / 1)
I am saying you are going to change shit unless you change behavior. You are advocating that we ignore that we are in the middle of the road with on coming traffic headed toward as a solution to whether we get hit or not. I am advocating  aknowledging how we got into the middle of traffic by ignoring the way to solve our problem. Here, that will require taken t he risk of moving from the position that we know, and moving to a new one. There is nothing defeatist about it. There is, however, a requirement of introspection of why a strategy is failing you and not repeating it.  

[ Parent ]
What "new position"? How to get there? (0.00 / 0)
Really, Bruh, can't you be a bit more specific?

[ Parent ]
Lord- you really dont see how each time (4.00 / 2)
progressives are moving the line and moving and then each time respond in each crisis by doing crisis management rather than realzing it is their overall strategy of capitulation? The reason why you are where you are at is because you gave up on the public option. That then allowed the conservadems to think they could go for more. Indeed, each step has been exactly like this. The core issue is simply that the progressives in the Congress are weak. So long as they are weak- you are not going to  the solutions you want.  If you want a solution- replace the weak progressives with strong ones. That's a solution.  

[ Parent ]
I hate to say I agree (0.00 / 0)
Negotiation 101: Don't say you'll do something and the not do it. Nobody will ever take you seriously again.

[ Parent ]
Exactly- this is why this diary and that of Mike Lux are well (4.00 / 2)
meaning, but are still farce. Why would the conservadems fear anything from the progressives at all at thispoint? I wouldn't. Do you?  

[ Parent ]
"farce"? Come on, Bruh, tone this down a bit. (0.00 / 0)
You almost sound like Sirota having a temper tantrum now. This will only result in alienating folks.

[ Parent ]
Right now over at Daily Kos (4.00 / 1)
McJoan is reporting that the anti abortion provision is now back on the gtable some how. Yes, it is a farce.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/...


[ Parent ]
No reason to sound like effing DKos. (0.00 / 0)
This is OpenLeft. We try to have discussions in a reasonable tone here.

But don't listen to me. Just go on like this.


[ Parent ]
It is not about listening to anyone it about dealing with reality (4.00 / 1)
I am not sure what you want. if a strategy is failing, you seem to want me to say it is working just because you don't like how it makes you feel.  

[ Parent ]
Now, really, what in "tone down a bit" don't you understand? (0.00 / 0)
"Farce" is too strong when used to describe Chris and Mike trying to see positive points in the compromise. That's all I'm saying.

Hell, would you ever see anything you fo described as  a "farce"? No? So.


[ Parent ]
You seem to be projecting (0.00 / 0)
My emotions are not in this unlike most progressives I am able to assess objectively what's happening. That's why I can respect the negotiation skill of the ConservaDems. I know what they are doing, and the strategic tactics they are using. Farce describes the situation objectively. Again, you seem to be projecting your emotions into this.  

[ Parent ]
"you seem to be projecting your emotions into this" Maybe. (0.00 / 0)
Who doesn't? Just look at our folks here: Everybody is acting extremely irritated in the last weeks. This constant back and forth about alleged compromises that never really materialize is ruining everybody's nerves.

Even more reason to try to calm down and not letting tensions escalate.


[ Parent ]
It is not about listening to anyone it about dealing with reality (0.00 / 0)
I am not sure what you want. if a strategy is failing, you seem to want me to say it is working just because you don't like how it makes you feel.  

[ Parent ]
I agree that farce is the wrong word (0.00 / 1)
I like TRAVESTY better.
How about DISASTER?
Sham is good.
Mockery?
Naah, I'll settle for catastrophe.

Not that I'm criticizing Chris in any way, him being a potential ally.  I'm just describing the emerging bill that he is [pick one]:

Foisting upon us.
Palming off.
Flakking.
Peddling.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
That's trolling, jeff. (0.00 / 0)
Behave.

[ Parent ]
Well, many here have said that. Remember... (0.00 / 0)
..how I just recently wrote the progressive base shouldn't show any satisfaction with the compromise because that would weaken the negotiating position? I voiced my opinion that the hardcore line of FDL is much more helpful than our guys stomping for support. So, we're not apart on this.

However, that alone won't get any bill passed. And replacing weak progressives (uh, why not better target lousy Dems first, especially cntrists?) is no short term solution. So, Chris correcly asked, what can be done NOW? And you somewhat missed that topic...


[ Parent ]
a few points (4.00 / 1)
a ) I don't tend t remember who writers what. Sorry if you have mentioned it before.

b) I am not merely discussing what we can do, and conflate in writing quickly that we are the same as the house or senate progressives.

c) There is nothing we can do in the short term. It requires ultimately behavior on the part of the Congress they have not yet exhibited.  They are who they are. Namely- weak.

d) We are not losing these battles due to bad apples. We are losing them becaue progressives are weak. I can not overemphasis enough how much strategies are only as valuable as the players. We have a weak team- thus we lose. Like or hate the conservadems, we should respect their ability to negotiation. I do at least because i know how hard it is. They had a weak hand coming into this. They still do. They only have a hand at all because of progressives.  


[ Parent ]
The $64 billion questions (0.00 / 0)
1. Does the D party work to weaken progressives elected under their banner?
1a. If so, is it deliberate?

[ Parent ]
it depends on how captured they are by corporate interest (0.00 / 0)
corporate interests are strengthed by weakened parties that can not attack them  

[ Parent ]
As you well know ... (0.00 / 0)
There are things that can be done.  They just don't entail getting sucked into the tar pits of negotiating this bill.  For instance ...

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

[ Parent ]
The only chance that liberals have (4.00 / 5)
is to accept that most of the Democrats in the Senate are not on our side.

I don't mean that they are all evil or that we can have no influence on them.  Just that they are liars who, absent pressure, will deliberately undermine our efforts.

The first step is to stop asking what Reid can do to force Lieberman or Snowe's hand.  Lieberman and Snowe are useful to Reid and the WH.  Clearly the WH and Congressional leaders already negotiated the bill they want, behind closed doors, long ago.  

It has been obvious since August that the Democratic leaders were counting on using the GOP as cover for passing an industry-friendly bill: "Ah shucks! We didn't get all that we wanted, but we had to compromise to get bipartisan support."  When the GOP refused to play ball, the WH, Reid, Baucus, etc. panicked because there was no longer any excuse for passing a compromised bill.

Fortunately, Lieberman is willing to play the villian and Snowe appears to have been bought off.

The idea that Democratic leaders would punish Lieberman for doing their dirty work is wildly off-base.  Similarly silly is the idea that Reid would want to get rid of the filibuster.  The filibuster is a useful tool for Reid.  It allows him to publicly support more liberal legislation that he can then kill for campaign contributions.

If you want to punish Lieberman or eliminate the filibuster, you have to make it painful for Reid to use those tools:  The ads in Nevada calling Reid weak were a great example.  Nothing else will work.


99% on-target, but (0.00 / 0)
why should they care about reelection when lobbyist gigs that start at 3x the salary are available to them within a year after they leave office (and AIPAC would, by all accounts, welcome Lieberman)?  "What are we gonna do, fire them?"

[ Parent ]
if this was true (4.00 / 2)
They wouldn't run for re-election.  They obviously prefer being in Congress to making the big bucks in the private sector.  You're right that it weakens the incentives, but clearly they still function to some degree or every congressional leader would quit after 1 terms to rake in the cash.

[ Parent ]
I don't think the mods are finished (0.00 / 0)
I suspect that if Lieberman and Nelson get us to fold on the public option, they'll turn on the medicare buy-in too. Then when we fold on that, they'll go after medicaid expansion, or abortion, or something else. I think the aim here isn't to weaken the bill - it's to emasculate it. Can someone tell me again why we can't split the bill in half and put the public option and cost controls through reconciliation?

allow the bill to be changed entirely via reconciliation after 2017 (0.00 / 0)
You'd have to figure out a tough way to say this, but the democrats can pass Massachusetts style reform in days by giving up the public option.  We (in our speech) would say we think these reforms worked pretty well and are pretty darn popular in Massachusetts and we think they'll work in the country well enough and be popular enough with Democrats that Republicans will never get 60 votes to alter the structure of it.  If the compromise goes through, we'll give you 37 votes to change the Byrd rule to allow any insurance regulation to be changed after 2017 (the election after this is all in place).

This is a big bet that HCR will all work and if it doesn't, not having the filibuster to protect it isn't that big a deal.  One option above is getting rid of the filibuster altogether, and if that worked, you could protect this anyway.
On the other hand, if Democrats have the congress in 2017, we've only need 51 votes for our changes.


Not sure how "medicare" buy will be a factor (0.00 / 0)
Snowe said she's opposed to it.

Appreciate this post (4.00 / 1)
I really appreciate the good analysis in this post (thanks Chris) and the suggestions that people have made to get something decent passed.

Nonsense! (4.00 / 1)
Right-wing Dems have a "strong hand" not because they are "strong" but because they don't give a shit about anything but their corporate sponsors! They certainly DON'T want health care reform. Not at all!

That makes it easy to stand in the doorway. Progressives are "weak" because they want legislation to pass. That's all. Just like in a hostage negotiation the kidnapper has the "advantage" because he's willing to kill the hostage.

As long as Nelson, Lieberman and Conrad don't give a flying damn about the American people and don't care if Democrats get trounced in 2010 and don't care what other Democratic Senators want, then how can they be forced? Kick them out of the caucus and let them fend for themselves? They'd probably be more popular in their states as independents caucusing with Republicans.

The ONLY way to get a bill that the Insurance Lobby doesn't like would be to pass it via reconciliation. Only that can't be done either because the Villagers would all scream about how "partisan" it all is (forget the fact that Republicans threatened to invoke the nuclear option if Democrats dared filibuster Bush's right-wing judicial nominees).

The only person who could have affected this equation is Obama -- by taking a hard-line in the sand and going on the offensive from day 1. But, he bailed out early because he didn't want to appear "partisan" and he counted on bribing institutions to support his (moderate) efforts. So, if anybody is "weak" it's not progressives, it's Obama who screwed up at every stage of this debate and now is faced with having to sign some piece of crap that everybody in the country will hate and then shrug his shoulders and say "it's the best we could do."


Ds don't care if Ds get trounced in 2010 (0.00 / 0)
All the better to raise money for the eternal tug-of-war theater with, my dear.

[ Parent ]
They DO IF They Are the "Trouncee"! (0.00 / 0)
You'll notice that House Democrats who have to run for re-election next year are all concerned about passing something. Senators only have to run every 6 years and they are counting on the public to have a short memory over their betrayal by the time they have to be re-elected.

Of course some of the corporate whores and conserva-dems have decided that OPPOSING health care reform gets them more votes than supporting it in their states.

They may be right given the abysmal failure of the media to tell the truth about this debate. Really the only way to refute the right-wing lies would be to pass the strongest possible bill and then say "See! They we told you they were lying about the 'death panels' and public takeover of health-care!"

Frankly, I'm counting on Joe Lieberman to block every attempt at "compromise" and thus FORCE the Senate Dems to pass the bill via reconciliation. That's the only way that anything worthwhile will emerge from the Senate.

At the point when Dems have to accept defeat -- NO public option, NO medicare expansion (because Lieberman and Snowe are opposed), NO Triggers because Lieberman and Snowe are opposed -- nothing, then they'll be faced with a stark choice.

Give up and punt and then be crucified as pathetic weaklings who will rightfully be destroyed in 2010, or else pass SOMETHING via reconciliation.

Right now it's a "last choice" but my sense is that it always was going to come down to a "last choice" anyway.

NOTHING is going to buy Liebermans' vote. He WANTS to be the asshole who destroyed the health care bill. At that point he could probably cross over to the Republicans and be welcomed as a hero who "stopped the public takeover of our health care system."

He would be insulated by this from any Republican challenger from the right and would probably be granted a committee assignment of his choice from the Republicans.  


[ Parent ]
Lieberman would lose his chairmanship (0.00 / 0)
The only way Lieberman defects is if Democrats and Republicans are tied 50-50, or if it's absolutely necessary to win reelection (at this point I doubt he'll run for another term anyway).

[ Parent ]
Hostage situation (0.00 / 0)
I always wondered about the stereotypical hostage taker - if the police call his bluff and he does kill his hostage, he has nothing left to negotiate with, and the police can just kill him.  So doesn't he worry about that?

He has to assume that the police will refuse to let the hostage die.  At the same time, if they call his bluff, that puts him in a difficult position.

The assumption we've been operating on here is that ConservaDems need some health care reform to pass for their political futures.  So they won't just let it die; they're just pretending they will so they can wring out as many concession as possible.

I say we let something - the Reid opt-out PO, the Medicare buy-in, whatever - go to a vote.  Let the ConservaDems filibuster it.  Let their constituents see it.  If they want to stop it, that's their choice.  Let them worry about what to do next for a change.


[ Parent ]
WRONG! (4.00 / 1)
Conserva-dems DON'T need ANY health-care bill to pass at all!

They wish Obama had never brought up this entire issue and hope that once it's defeated it'll all just go away and they can go back to happily raking in bundles of corporate cash from the grateful insurance lobbyists!

See, if HCR is defeated HOW can Democrats prove to skeptical voters that it wasn't a total disaster that was narrowly averted by brave Conservatives?

Remember how Republicans for years ran against "Hillary-care!"

They can only make those lies plausible IF nothing passes. If it does and the sky doesn't fall, then they just sound like the hysterical liars they are.

Go back and read the hysterical comments opposing social security in the 1930's. Same thing. Once it passed, it became impossible for Republicans to talk about how it would lead to a socialist takeover destroying our freedoms!

But, if it had failed, then you'd be hearing today how the heroic Republicans saved our country from financial ruin by blocking social security.

We very nearly had universal health care back in the 30s. It was proposed as part of the New Deal. But Roosevelt listened to the AMA lobby and backed down.

And, 70 years later we're still waiting for universal coverage -- which Germany passed around 1900! They've had it for over 100 years and we're still waiting!


[ Parent ]
It seems to me (4.00 / 2)
That Reid needs to be the focus, particularly if we are going to execute strategies like Adam Green describes above. Partly because of his 2010 re-election, partly because he has the levers on this stuff, and partly because I just don't think there is a ton of pressure that can be exerted on Snowe or Lieberman.


Me on Facebook
Me on Twitter


Going to be Reid by default (0.00 / 0)
What it will take to appease Lieberman or Snowe will be a non-starter for others. Once they figure out that there isn't a 60 vote compromise to be had, it will up to Reid to decide how to proceed on the pending bill. Assuming failure is not an option, then reconciliation or at least the threat of it will surely come into play.

Self-refuting Christine O'Donnell is proof monkeys are still evolving into humans

[ Parent ]
Can we slip a dead girl or a live boy (0.00 / 0)
into Lieberman's bed?

The problem with continuing to fight to make the bill stronger ... (4.00 / 1)
... is that, even if every single existing point of contention is resolved in our favor, the final bill will be a piece of shit.

Public option piece of shit.
Medicare for those age 55 that is unaffordable.
Stupak will be back in some form.
The mandate forcing me to buy what I can't afford.

It is clear that Bowers and Lux are not generally supported by the ranks of OpenLeft.  At what point do we officially call the retreat?  The Light Brigade gets a poem, but I wouldn't have wanted to be one of the 600.  Custer's 7th Cavalry went down in history, but I'm wouldn't have wanted to be at the Little Big Horn.

This is now the wrong fight, and continuing to pursue it keeps us on the "one more election" treadmill.  Time to get off, catch our breath, and prepare to mete out punishment to our betrayers in Congress.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


Still waiting for (4.00 / 1)
every single mouthpiece - all the senators putatively in favor of a public option, the Progressive Caucus, the administration, HCAN, everyone - to do nothing for a week except say "upperdown."

As in:

"I understand Senator Lieberman's objections, but it's time for an up-or-down vote on what's been proposed."

"Any more compromises, and their bill will fail here in the House. They need to stop negotiating and take an up-or-down vote right now."

"We're running up against the President's deadline. I think it's time to move to an up-or-down vote on the bill itself."

Obama: "I think when the American people elected me last November, they expected to get an up-or-down vote on what they voted for."

Why hasn't this happened? 1) Obama wants a watered-down bill. 2) We don't really have a majority of senators passionate about the PO, or even HCR. 3) HCAN - and all of the NGO's in the Veal Pen - don't want to lead in a direction that Obama will reverse them on.

Oh, and 4) the 60 minus 1 consensus, or even the 60 minus 4 consensus on HCR in the Senate seems less and less worth fighting for.


I gave you a 4 for the first half of this post (0.00 / 0)
because I think it's exactly right.

As I've written before, and as Chris has written before, and as is, for that matter, quite plainly obvious, the single biggest thing, more than all the rest combined, standing in the way of progressive legislation is the filibuster in the Senate. And therefore it might be a fabulous idea for us to gain a nearly single-minded focus on fighting it.

And while there's all kinds of plans you could come up with about how to eliminate it in the long term, in the short term (which is what, at this point, matters), the single best thing you could do is, actually, to just keep saying "upperdown vote". Right now, the progressive "movement" keeps saying "public option", "public option", "public option". This is not completely ineffective -- we might in the end get some kind of decent compromise in exchange for not actually having a public option. But I think it might be more effective to just keep saying "upperdown vote", "upperdown vote", "upperdown vote" instead. The more that leverage is taken away from the 3-4 most conservative Democratic Senators, the more progressive the bill, as a natural consequence, will become. Paradoxically, making the argument about process wiill do more to improve the policy outcome than actually making the argument about policy.

And yeah, it would be hypocritical. Many/most Democrats supported the filibuster back when it was the Republicans being annoyed by it. But: fuck it. The Republicans are being hypocritical too: they're the ones filibustering everything after having been opposed to it the previous eight years. And they don't ever get called out on it in any serious way. Fight fire with fire. I'd rather be a hypocrite with a good healthcare bill than an intellectually consistent person without one. All that anyone will care about afterwards, anyways, will be the results. (And I would've said in addition that the Republicans having been giant hypocrites will make it more difficult for them to call us out on our own hypocrisy, but upon reflection that isn't the sort of thing which has ever stopped them. They'll do it anyways. Which is part of why they're more effective.)

The best thing about this plan is that it is entirely within our own control. We can create political pressure on the Senate to have an up or down vote. Nobody is stopping us. The effectiveness of the plan would be determined solely by our own capabilities. Many other ideas -- "offer to give Lieberman's chairmanship to Snowe", "have Reid threaten them with an even stronger public option through reconcilation" -- are intriguing and could very well work. But they are almost entirely out of our control, and there is not very much we can do about it. If the Democratic Senatorial leadership doesn't want to do it, then it's not going to happen. This, by contrast, we can do.


[ Parent ]
What is the reconciliation process like? (0.00 / 0)
I keep reading that it would be long and hard and arduous and have a great chance of doing serious violence to the bill. However, while I've read plenty about the Byrd Rule and the parliamentarian and the fact that Conrad's Budget Committee would be in charge, I haven't read very much about how exactly that process would work.

How long? How arduous?

My fear is that after the bill has already taken so ridiculously long, being faced with another lengthy reconcilation process on top of it would just cause everyone (particularly in the Senate) to just throw up their hands and give up on the project entirely. Which would kind of suck. And which is why I'm not certain that the seemingly "obvious" solution of just killing the current bill and "forcing" them to go to reconciliation, which a lot of people are shouting we should do, is necessarily such an excellent idea. Seems like it could backfire.

On the other hand, if reconcilation is not actually as long and arduous as people keep saying it is, then more people should actually be shouting about it. But to make that determination we need the facts. Does anyone have them?


Thanks Chris, great and responsive post to the discussions here (0.00 / 0)
I would think that a two-pronged short/long approach would be best.  In the short term, push to get the two senators.

But more importantly, long term push to kill the filibuster.  We are going to face this exact situation over and over on everything we try to get passed.  The filibuster fight can be delayed, but by necessity it will need to be fought.  Might as well start laying the groundwork now.

Although it's dreadful, we really need to start talking about where we draw the line on killing health care reform.  It's over the edge for me already, but I'm still willing to listen to the arguments for staying the course.   There is a certain point though where we should as a group be ready to close ranks and not go along to get along with the money dems.


USER MENU

Open Left Campaigns

SEARCH

   

Advanced Search

QUICK HITS
STATE BLOGS
Powered by: SoapBlox