"Yes He Can"--an interview with environmental lawyer Kassie R. Siegel on Obama's power to make

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 09:00


climate change commitment w/o Congress

Copenhagen was only a failure from one POV.  It was a success from another--the global community successfully resisted a binding bad deal.  All the more reason, and all the more space to keep pushing on different fronts.

In my previous diary, "Yes, He Can"--Obama's power to make climate change commitment w/o Congress, I presented an excerpt from a recent paper from the the Center for Biological Diversity coathored by attorney Kassie R. Siegel, "Yes He Can: President Obama's Power to Make an International Climate Commitment Without Waiting for Congress" (pdf), which describes the Clean Air Act powers that can be used to regulate greenhouse gasses, and how they could be employed.  Kassie was kind enough to agree to an email interview from Copenhagen in the midst of all the hectic activity there, in order to discuss the idea further.  Thanks to Natasha for setting up the interview.


Open Left:  With the horrendous experience of health care reform being mangled in the legislative process, it's easy for people to feel despairing about any sort of meaningful climate change legislation--even if they haven't been following that legislation closely.  But you're arguing that that's not necessary--or perhaps even desireable, given the Supreme Court decision regarding EPA's authority to regulate CO2.

Kassie R. Siegel: We're not arguing that Congress shouldn't pass climate a climate bill, but that any legislation must build upon the successful foundation of environmental law that we already have - not gut it.  The Clean Air Act is our best existing tool for reducing greenhouse pollution, and fully compatible with any new tools Congress may choose to enact.  The Clean Air Act's critical safety net must be maintained.

OL: What's the legislative outlook at this time?

KRS: The Kerry-Lieberman-Graham "framework" was introduced this week, which was quite frank about replacing both the Clean Air Act and existing state efforts to reduce greenhouse gases with market mechanisms.  It is also quite frank about protecting the coal, oil, and nuclear industries.  Conventional wisdom says there aren't enough votes to pass the superior (though certainly far from ideal) bill introduced by Senators Boxer and Kerry in the fall.  Its not yet clear whether the votes will materialize for whatever bill emerges from the K-L-G framework.  

OL: How does that compare with current law?

KRS: While we don't have the specifics yet of the K-L-G Framework, we can expect it to be even weaker than the Waxman-Markey bill that passed the House this summer.  The Waxman-Markey bill takes us in exactly the wrong direction by exempting greenhouse gases from most existing Clean Air Act programs.

OL: What should be the legal limit of CO2 and other greenhouse gasses be?  

KRS: CO2 needs to be reduced to no more than 350 ppm, as we requested in our petition.  See p. 26 of the petition for our requested limits for the other six greenhouse gases.  

Paul Rosenberg :: "Yes He Can"--an interview with environmental lawyer Kassie R. Siegel on Obama's power to make
OL: Why would this be better than current legislative approach?

KRS: The Clean Air Act is one of the most successful environmental laws of all time.  It has protected the air we breathe for four decades, saves thousands of lives each year and has produced economic benefits worth 42 times the cost of the pollution reductions, according to the EPA's own data.  The Clean Air Act works, and it is well suited to reducing greenhouse pollution as well.   While polluters lob endless attacks the Clean Air Act, the fact is that it is our strongest existing tool for reducing greenhouse pollution, and even includes a central provision to set a science-based pollution cap, called a national ambient air quality standard, or NAAQS, for carbon pollution that is sufficient to protect the public health and welfare.  

The current legislative approach would exempt greenhouse pollution from nearly all Clean Air Act programs and replace it with a deeply flawed cap-and-trade system with an inadequate carbon cap.

OL: What impact would this have in terms of an international agreement?

KRS: As we demonstrate in our new report, Yes, He Can: President Obama's Power to Make an International Climate Commitment Without Waiting for Congress, President Obama has all the legal tools he needs to agree to science-based reduction targets of 45% or more below 1990 levels by 2020, and achieve those reductions under the Clean Air Act.  Its often asserted that the President's hands are tied by Congress's failure to act, but this is simply not the case legally.  If the President chooses not to agree to science-based reduction targets here in Copenhagen, that is because he is making a political decision not to do so, not because he faces legal constraints.

OL: Why has the EPA/regulatory alternative not gotten more attention?

KRS: There has been an enormous effort in this country to promote the idea that market mechanisms such as cap-and-trade are superior to direct pollution reductions under our flagship environmental laws.  Therefore many people have accepted the unsupported assertion that the Clean Air Act is not well-suited to reducing greenhouse gases and should be replaced with a cap-and-trade system.  There's simply not that many people pressing the administration to fully implement the Clean Air Act immediately, and pressing Congress to retain the safety net of the Clean Air Act for greenhouse gases in any new legislation.

OL: I've been reporting on air pollution issues in proximity to the Port of Los Angeles since 2002.  Our local air is wildly out of compliance with federal law, and even well-intentioned local regulators have limited ability to improve conditions.

(a) How would your proposal avoid getting bogged down with similar problems?

KRS: I believe that inadequate progress we've seen with traditional air pollution in some areas like Los Angeles are related to inadequate enforcement rather than any inherent flaws in the law itself.  We need to greatly change the political situation so that the EPA has the political will to actually implement the law.  Solutions are available both for greenhouse gases and traditional air pollutants, but it means making real changes.  These are changes that will improve our lives for the better, but it will take leadership in order to get there.  If as a society we make the decision to do so, we can get it done.

OL: If additional legislative authority were necessary to enable regulatory effectiveness, how would such legislative battles compare with the policy path currently being pursued?

KRS: Until the politics change, we're going to have legislative battles.  The good news is that we don't currently need any new legislative authority - the President has all the tools he needs to begin deep and rapid greenhouse emissions reductions.  This is the single most important thing he could do to change the politics - because once the EPA and the states get started with successful greenhouse pollution reductions, people will see that all the scare tactics from industry are simply incorrect.  Industry has always argued against new health and safety regulations - the auto industry said that the original Clean Air Act targets for traditional pollutants could not be achieved, and that making seat belts mandatory would irreparably harm the industry, to name just a few examples, and yet we now take these things for granted.

OL: What other considerations should influence our thinking about global warming, and this alternative approach to dealing with it?

KRS: We need our policies to be guided by the science.  The science tells us that this is a matter of life and death.  300,000 people per year already die due to climate change.  We are already losing plants, animals, and entire ecosystems, such as the Arctic, where polar bears are drowning, starving, and even resorting to cannibalism as their sea-ice habitat melts beneath their feet.  The science tells us that we need to reduce carbon dioxide concentrations back to below 350 ppm, and that means reducing emissions by 45% or more below 1990 levels by 2020.  We need to do the right thing and get serious about reducing greenhouse pollution.

OL: Finally, what can people do to help advance this approach to dealing with the problem?

KRS: I think right now the most important things are to press the EPA to move forward quickly with comprehensive greenhouse pollution reductions under the Clean Air Act, and to demand that Congress not gut existing law when passing new climate legislation.  Please join our activist network here:  http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/action/activist/index.html,and sign our petition for strong legislation here:  http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/2167/t/5243/petition.jsp?petition_KEY=2181.

Individual phone calls and meetings with your Senator and Representatives really do make a difference, and we can help you set up a meeting on this issue.  Email Rose Braz at rbraz@biologicaldiversity.org for more information.


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"global community successfully resisted a binding bad deal" Huh? (0.00 / 0)
You seem to believe that the binding is actually counter-productive, and so it's better that it is not binding. And from the interview I understand that you see "Cap and Trade" as an inferior way to curb carbon emissions. OK, the experts are divided about this, so this is a reasonable point. Even if it's totally questionable, if not unlikely, that Obama would fight climate change through the EPA.

But I don't see how this is coupled with your opposition to COP15? Are you under the impression that the agreement includes a requirement to use "Cap and Trade" for thee reductions? If yes, yu're quite mistaken! Read the pdf for yourself, the only statement that refers to emission markets is this:

We decide to pursue various approaches, including opportunities to use markets, to
enhance the cost-effectiveness of, and to promote mitigation actions.

http://unfccc.int/resource/doc...

And there is nothing binding in this! Did you confuse this somehow, or do you have other reasons to oppose the deal? Pls explain!  


You Should Read Me (0.00 / 0)
Rather than reading into me.

That brief intro was simply intended to answer the obvious question, "Why is he writing about this now?"  It was meant to help ease people into the interview itself.  Instead, you've seized on it as a way to avoid engageing with the interview.  I'd call that perverse.

And this assumes a simplistic dichotomy, which I reject:

You seem to believe that the binding is actually counter-productive, and so it's better that it is not binding.

It's better to be bound to something good, it's worse to be bound to something bad.  Pretty simple. Why make it more complicated than that?  To create ghosts to wrestle with?

My point here is simple: when powerful forces are pushing things in a bad direction, it's better to keep the battle going than to conclude a bad peace.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
"You Should Read Me"? Can't read what you don't write. (0.00 / 0)
"It was meant to help ease people into the interview itself." That I did understand. What I don't understand in this context is this: "It's better to be bound to something good, it's worse to be bound to something bad."

The agreement is inadeqate, but it isn't bad. It's simply not good enough. But, contrary to the impression your statement  leaves, it would have NO negative consequences for the climate if it was binding, quite to the contrary! After all, it doesn't keep any nation from doing more than required regarding reductions. And it doesn't tie them to using "Cap and Trade". But it would have been an additional pressure to achieve at least the contractual minimum! Without a legal liability, even that is questionable. So, there can't be any reasonable doubt that the missing commitment to this meager deal is not  a "success" but an additional failure!

Come on, Paul, sry, but your entry statement is WRONG. Can't you simply acknowledge that?


[ Parent ]
From the point of much of the world, the agreement was just plain bad (4.00 / 2)
the agreement was so bad that it could not be passed, even with promises of hundreds of billions in bribes.  That's got to be a pretty bad agreement.

And of course if you say that the agreement was NOT bad, then the onus is on your Western elites, but on all those unreasonable brown and black and yellow people out there who just won't come to the table and do what they're told.  For them however, it is not a matter of profits.  It's a matter of life and death.  Tens or hundreds of millions will starve or drown or be uprooted from their homes in the near future.

When does this kind of suffering cross the threshold to become a "bad" agreement.  A hundred million dead and five hundred million refugees?  Three hundred million dead and seven hundred million refugees???  Five hundred...  you get the idea.  For most of the world outside the US, for Paul, and for me, it met that threahold.  For you, maybe not.  

"If you want that good feeling that comes from doing things for other people, then you have to pay for it in abuse and misunderstanding..."
Zora Neale Hurston


[ Parent ]
Read the feedback form participating delegates and NGOs, Bruce! (0.00 / 0)
You'll find there is consensus about two reasons why the agreement is bad:
Firstly, it's not good enough. A target of only 2°C climate change will literally out millions "under water". However, almsot everybody agrees that this is still better than nothing. Nothing would have been totally unacceptable, of course.
And secondly, the agreement ISN'T BINDING! The industrialized nations, leed by the US, don't even COMMITT to the meager goals! They don't guarantee anything, not even that they'll hhonestly try. And that is scandalous.

Also, there is criticism of the undemocratic way the negotiating nations tried to strongarm others into accepting their fraud, but this has to more with the HOW than the WHAT of the agreement.

And now, pls read Paul's statement again: "Copenhagen was only a failure from one POV.  It was a success from another--the global community successfully resisted a binding bad deal." Do you think that's true, that this was a success in any way? And what is "binding" doing in this context? The problem isn't that the deal is binding, the problem is that it is NOT binding! Sry, but I really believe Paul distorts the real issue here.


[ Parent ]
This whole disagreement obscures what actually happened in Copenhagen and the point of this interview with the environmental lawyer. (0.00 / 0)
My takeaway from media reports on Copenhagen is that nations - including China - agreed to monitor their emissions, and the U.S. pledged to help developing nations financially in coping with climate change. I think this is a successful outcome.

Here's links to Wash Post reports:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...
and
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

In the deal, spelled out in a three-page document, [binding on major players including the U.S., China, India, Brazil and South Africa] each country needs only to list its current domestic pledges for emissions reductions and to promise to allow monitoring of their progress. It also outlines steps to help poor countries  go green and prepare for the impact of a warming Earth [the U.S. committed billions and pledged to raise $100 billion a year in financing by 2020].

There won't be an international agreement to limit emissions (nobody expected one out of Copenhagen) until the U.S., as a world leader in emissions and otherwise, can clean up its act at home.

The major point this environmental lawyer is making is this:

We're not arguing that Congress shouldn't pass a climate bill, but that any legislation must build upon the successful foundation of environmental law that we already have - not gut it.

The Waxman-Markey bill, or any of the other legislative proposals, would include all sorts of protections for competing special interests - agriculture, coal, nuclear industries. Plus, there are provisions that would undermine EPA authority. For example, Waxman-Markey would transfer authority from EPA to the USDA for enforcement of Clean Air Act regulations on farm land, read industrial agri-business lobbyists.

An emphasis on cap n trade obscures the EPA's existing legal authority under the Clean Air Act to deal with Climate Change. Not that it's clear sailing -- it's a long haul time-wise to move from agreeing with the Supreme Court that greenhouse gases are dangerous to the public welfare to developing actual regulations on curbing carbon emissions. Industry also weighs in heavily on the process of developing regulations, as EPA is required to provide opportunity for feedback from the public, and there is always the threat of lawsuits.


[ Parent ]
What's the more important point, the monitoring or the reduction? (0.00 / 0)
I understand that monitoring the progress is important, but the main point, what this damn conferrence was really about, is meaningful redcution of carbon emissions and those of other greenhouse gases, too, in order to limit the warming. That's the big issue, everything else is secondary. And, sry, outside of the UDS, nobody really cares HOW the US will reduce thir footprint, it's all about HOW MUCH they will do it.

The reason of concern, of course, are the meager goals of the agreement, and the additional fact that it's not even binding. Basically, it's a promise by Obama to do something. A promise? By Obama? Come on, you have to see that this is a problem in itself! A giant Summit, producing only such an almost worthless piece of paper, can hradly be called a success. And almost nobody choses this word as a feedback.

So, sry, Michelle, but imho you somewhat miss the point here.  "There won't be an international agreement to limit emissions (nobody expected one out of Copenhagen) until the U.S., as a world leader in emissions and otherwise, can clean up its act at home." Why shouldn't the US be able to "clean up its act at home"? For heaven's sake, afaik your carbon footprint is almost twice as big as that of us Europeans, who enjoy a similar standard of living! A short term reduction of, say, 25% sure is possible. There are several ways to reach that, how you do it is your issue, but for heaven's sake, get going and don't waste another ten years with discussions about the best method! Actions speak louder than words.


[ Parent ]
But like Gray said before, no, he won't. What will WE do? (4.00 / 1)
What we are about to see then is reminiscent of the health care dance we just witnessed.  If the prez and his friends and the media succeed as they certainly will, in limiting the range of debate before the public to current non-enforcement of the EPA comboned with Wasman-Markey, which privatizes the atmoshere by establishing a legal right to pollute along with exchanges to buy and sell thee "rights" on the one hand, and this SomeBody-Lieberman-graham thing that will remove EPA's right to regulate carbon entirely, we are screwed again, as is the planet and humanity.

I expect they will tie some ribbon on Waxman-Markey and pretend it's the new "public option" to rally the "progressives" in Congress and the blogosphere, and I suppose they will allow themselves to be rallied.  But there is no mistake here.  Waxman-Markey is not "flawed".  It too enshrines the market as arbiter of the planet's climate destiny.  Waxman-Markey PLUS better EPA enforcement will not be enough to reduce total carbon emissions, not by a long shot.

I spent 20 years of my life in the one-party state of Chicago primarying bad Democrats.  There;s a whole culture of us up there, a lot of whom were responsible in part for Obama's early career and his ascension to the Senate.  We had some successes in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s, Harold Washington the most notable.  But the anti-democratic  control of big money over that party just cannot be killed, it keeps coming back no matter what Democrats imagined we were working or voting for.

If crap like this is the best we can get with a Democratic president and whopping majorities in both houses of Congress then it's time for me to head for the exit.  I never was a very good Democrat.  From now on I won't be one at all.  I am going to help build a Green Party down here in GA.

Given how far to the right GA Democratic politicians are these days, and the trend nationally, there are a lot of disappointed GA Democrats willing to hear something else if we can figure out how to get a message in front of them...

"If you want that good feeling that comes from doing things for other people, then you have to pay for it in abuse and misunderstanding..."
Zora Neale Hurston


This Is Just A Beginning (4.00 / 1)
It too enshrines the market as arbiter of the planet's climate destiny.  Waxman-Markey PLUS better EPA enforcement will not be enough to reduce total carbon emissions, not by a long shot.

I tried to make this point in my questioning, but as a resident of Southern California, home to the dirtiest air in the nation, the limits of Clean Air Act enforcement in practice are painfully obvious.  However, in principle EPA enforcement of the CAA could be enough to reduce total carbon emissions, and we should not lose sight of that fact as a point to keep hammering home against those who would readily bargain away that ability.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Cap and Trade and Acid Rain (4.00 / 1)
Does that model suggest that cap and trade can be effective if well implemented?

I'm not a fan of cap and trade from an environmental justice perspective (it's a fat lot of consolation to Meigs County in Appalachian Ohio if their local coal plants- which cause the county to have the lowest life expectancy in Ohio- just 'save' plots of rainforest in the Amazon), but does this mean that we should scrap it altogether?  Or can it be useful in conjunction with a stronger EPA hand?

I definitely agree though that we can't count on cap and trade to do everything we need it to, and GHG regulation must be preserved.

Even better would be if they simply enforced real laws- which is what makes me skeptical.  The law can be great but if the spirit of law remains spiritual and not actualized, it's not doing a whole lot of good.  The only way coal is financially feasible is because it gets a pass on paying for the hideous damage it inflicts at every stage of production and use.

But I agree with the main point, that Obama has the capability to deliver more than he acts like he does (though that might as well be the subtitle to future analyses of his entire damn presidency.  Change Undersold- How Obama Lowered Our Expectations Of The Ability Of Progressives strikes me as accurate)

Figuring out how to be a progressive college graduate transplant to Ohio:  http://citizenobie.wordpress.com/


How Many Bad Ideas At Once? (0.00 / 0)
Can cap & trade be made into a useful instrument in a perfect world?

Sure.

But you answer yourself when citing the power of existing laws, if only they were fully enforced.  Cap & trade seems so well primed for synergizing with just about every bad idea in sight.

The main point remains the most important, however.

Obama is the only politician I can think of who regularly takes aces out of his hand, and slides them up his sleeve.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
A carbon tax is every bit as prone to abuse (4.00 / 1)
as cap and trade is--you can write exemptions, offsets, and all the same sorts of things into a carbon tax bill that you can into a cap and trade bill.  I remain pretty unconvinced that the underlying framework is the thing to be fighting about.  The little details is where the lobbyists are going to fuck up the bill.  

It is almost immaterial whether or not it's a carbon tax or cap-and trade, IMO.  


[ Parent ]
Sure You CAN Mess It Up (0.00 / 0)
Barnacles can grow on smooth surfaces as well as rough and pock-marked ones.

But which is more readily hospitable to them?  And which is more readily disposed of them?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
A priori, I don't think there is really much difference there (4.00 / 1)
It's not like corporations aren't masters of inserting tax loopholes into legislation, or dodging existing taxes already written into legislation.  

In my opinion, both forms of law have equal ability of actually being effective, it's a matter of how well written they are.  Offsets are a much better fight than cap and trade, in my opinion.


[ Parent ]
Taxes Are Conceptually Much Clearer To The Average Person (0.00 / 0)
You're too focused on the wonkospheric reasoning here, IMHO.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Actually, that's why I think they're just as dangerous (0.00 / 0)
taxes enable you to say that you're going to do X while doing Y, because they are supposedly, on their face, easier to explain.  

[ Parent ]
But That's exactly the point! Obama won't do aynthing. (0.00 / 0)
So, this makes the idea about a stronger EPA stance wishful thinking. Won't happen.

And it seems that Cap and Trade is the way Congress wants to go. Does resistance against that have a chance? Or wouldn't it b more reasonable to accept the inevitable, and use Aikido tchnics to at least make it the hardest hitting Cap and Trade low possible?

Come on, you just rcently wrote about the problem of being obsessed by a process. Now, take a step back and look at what you're advocating here! The goal is to reduce the carbon emissions, right? Is your stimping on an strong EPA surveillance that will never happen, coupled with principal opposition against CaT really HELPFUL for reaching that goal, Paul? Hmm?


[ Parent ]
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