20 Answers on why the health care bill needs to die for Nate Silver

by: Ian Welsh

Thu Dec 17, 2009 at 02:34


Nate Silver has some questions for those who want the health care bill to die.  Since many of these questions are common ones, here are answers.

1. Over the medium term, how many other opportunities will exist to provide in excess of $100 billion per year in public subsidies to poor and sick people?


Over the medium term, how many other opportunities will exist to force people to spend money they don't have on insurance that doesn't have a cap on expenses and in some cases only has a 70% actuarial value?  100 billion in subsidies doesn't mean squat if they come tied to an expense people can't afford, making them buy insurance which is not particularly useful.

2. Would a bill that contained $50 billion in additional subsidies for people making less than 250% of poverty be acceptable?

No.  Even at 300% or 401% (subsidies cutting off at 400%), there are people who will be forced into bankruptcy by this bill.  Repeat after me, no cap on expenses, and inadequate cost controls.

3. Where is the evidence that the plan, as constructed, would substantially increase insurance industry profit margins, particularly when it is funded in part via a tax on insurers?

Stock values of pharma, insurance companies and healthcare companies in general are up, that's because the market thinks the plan will increase their profits.  Where is the evidence that forcing 30 million people to buy a product with actuarial values as low as 70% wouldn't increase profits?

More in the extended entry

Ian Welsh :: 20 Answers on why the health care bill needs to die for Nate Silver

4. Why are some of the same people who are criticizing the bill's lack of cost control also criticizing the inclusion of the excise tax, which is one of the few cost control mechanisms to have survived the process?

Because the excise tax is not inflation adjusted, which means that over time it will force companies to reduce the quality of their plans.

5. Why are some of the same people who are criticizing the bill's lack of cost control also criticizing the inclusion of the individual mandate, which is key to controlling premiums in the individual market?

Because the mandate, as noted above, will force people who can't afford insurance to buy bad insurance.  Also, if you take a look at Massachussets, where they have a mandate, you will find little evidence that a mandate has controlled costs.  A mandate by itself is not sufficient to control costs, all it does is set up a company shop.  Absent hard regulation of the sort of the US has proven very bad at enforcing (see Crisis, Financial) a mandate is just a looting license.

6. Would concerns about the political downside to the individual mandate in fact substantially be altered if a public plan were included among the choices? Might not the Republican talking point become: "forcing you to buy government-run insurance?"

Not if it were a robust public option which reduced costs.  Good policy makes people happy.  And no one would be forced to buy the public option anyway, it's an option. Only one of many choices.

7. Roughly how many people would in fact meet ALL of the following criteria: (i) in the individual insurance market, and not eligible for Medicaid or Medicare; (ii) consider the insurance to be a bad deal, even after substantial government subsidies; (iii) are not knowingly gaming the system by waiting to buy insurance until they become sick; (iv) are not exempt from the individual mandate penalty because of low income status or other exemptions carved out by the bill?

How many people are going bankrupt a year now?  Well, in the first 9 months of the year, 1,046,449.  Average that out for the year, and assume we hit something over 1.3 million.  Now, how many MORE people would go bankrupt if they were forced to spend money they don't have on insurance they can't afford, which has no caps on expenditures and when things were getting tight couldn't dump that insurance?

8. How many years is it likely to be before Democrats again have (i) at least as many non-Blue Dog seats in the Congress as they do now, and (ii) a President in the White House who would not veto an ambitious health care bill?


They already have a president in the Whitehouse who doesn't want an ambitious health care bill and has worked hard to make sure there isn't one.  Here's my question for you.  Given cost realities, which no, this bill doesn't address, how many years will it be before it will be even more clear that something has to be done?  But in any case, pushing through a bill which is worse than the status quo is not a victory, so this question is a non-sequitur.

9. If the idea is to wait for a complete meltdown of the health care system, how likely is it that our country will respond to such a crisis in a rational fashion? How have we tended to respond to such crises in the past?


Well, in the Great Depression the US responded quite well.  Of course, there's a 50/50 chance that instead of getting an FDR you may get something much worse, but again, passing a bad bill now isn't superior to passing no bill at all, so this is a non-question.

10. Where is the evidence that the public option is particularly important to base voters and/or swing voters (rather than activists), as compared with other aspects of health care reform?


Well, the public option has regularly polled as popular, and in the meantime 40% of Democratic voters are currently stating that they are so demoralized they are thinking of staying home in 2010. We don't know how much of that is related to this lousy healthcare plan, but given that healthcare has dominated the news from DC for, oh, 6 months, I think it would be surprising if it wasn't a huge factor.

11. Would base voters be less likely to turn out in 2010 if no health care plan is passed at all, rather than a reasonable plan without a public option?

I don't know, and neither do you.  What I do know is that doing something bad is worse than doing nothing at all and that 40% of the base is already so demoralized they are thinking of not showing up, which can't be because they are thrilled by the bill which looks most likely to pass.

12. What is the approximate likelihood that a plan passed through reconciliation would be better, on balance, from a policy perspective, than a bill passed through regular order but without a public option?

Very high, since it is 3 or 4 Senators who keep blackmailing out the better parts of the bills, and reconciliation needs only 51 votes.

13. What is the likely extent of political fallout that might result from an attempt to use the reconciliation process?

Well, Bush used it to pass tax cuts for the rich, and no one seemed to care much.  Granted Democrats aren't allowed to do what Republicans do.  Probably you'd have a hard time passing anything till the next election that didn't require reconciliation, or which you didn't stick in a military funding bill.  But so what?  Getting through one really good bill, and with reconciliation you could put through a bill with a real public option, not the watered down House version, would be worth it.  Except, of course, that the President doesn't want a good bill.  But, again, this is a bad bill.

14. How certain is it that a plan passed through reconciliation would in fact receive 51 votes (when some Democrats would might have objections to the use of the process)?

Not completely certain.  But again, if it fails, I don't care.  This bill is bad, if it dies, it dies.  Better no bill, than a bad bill.

15. Are there any compromises or concessions not having to do with the provision of publicly-run health programs that could still be achieved through progressive pressure?

Can't think of anything significant offhand.

16. What are the chances that improvements can be made around the margins of the plan -- possibly including a public option -- between 2011 and the bill's implementation in 2014?

Since indications are that Democrats will lose seats in 2010, not much.

17. What are the potential upsides and downsides to using the 2010 midterms as a referendum on the public option, with the goal of achieving a 'mandate' for a public option that could be inserted via reconciliation?

Can't be done.  The Democratic party is not willing to run  on it, and progressives cannot run on it alone.  Again, there is no indication the President wanted a public option, certainly none that he pushed for it any meaningful way.

18. Was the public option ever an attainable near-term political goal?

Yes.  The President wants a bill very badly.  If Progressive legislators were willing to walk, they would have bargaining leverage.

19. How many of the arguments that you might be making against the bill would you still be making if a public option were included (but in fact have little to do with the public option)?


Frankly the House public option was already so weak that the bill was already dead to me, though Medicare expansion might have made the bill worth passing depending on the details.  Reconciliation is only useful if it offers a chance to get a better public option than the House public option.

20. How many of the arguments that you might be making against the bill are being made out of anger, frustration, or a desire to ring Joe Lieberman by his scruffy, no-good, backstabbing neck?

I have been against this bill for a couple months now.  Any frustration I have is only because the bill is so bad it needs to die.


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Sigh (4.00 / 2)
I and others tried to reason with him over at DKos the other day. He's not budging from his "Any bill is better than no bill" on both policy and politics grounds shtick. I respect his position, but he's just not wired to be a progressive. He sees everything through a hyper-logical lens that reduces everything to spreadsheet breakdowns.

At least the debates on this are more civil these days.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


What do you expect from a statistician? He's not a pundit. Period. (4.00 / 3)
I really don't know why people try to elevate Silver into an authority on politics and economy. He isn't, and pushing him that way only makes the Peter principle come true, it would only result in Silver rising to his "Level of Incompetence". And it's sad that this good guy can't see his own limitations, and draw the obvious conclusion he should keep at his tables and calculations.

If even Ezra Klein, a smart guy with a much wider scope, isn't able to see the forest for the trees, Nate Silver has no chance. Those wonks with their limited insight are not helpful right now for finding the ugly reality that would be created by this healthcare "reform".


[ Parent ]
I consider myself a (4.00 / 2)
wonk, actually.  I think it has more to do with scope and temperament and an ability to game forward.

[ Parent ]
Hmm, imho it's the ability to step back, see the bigger picture... (4.00 / 2)
..and especially get an understanding how the different parts will fit together in reality, that makes the difference. Ezra, and espcially Nate, focus too much on the details, but fail to see their place in the larger system. If they would, they couldn't avoid the conslusion that very important parts are missing. It's as if an engineer is impressed by a new, powerful engine, and concludes the car will be a winner on the track, without noticing that the gear ratio is wrong and that there's no suspension at all!

[ Parent ]
I don't look at him as a pundit (4.00 / 7)
I look at him as a smart guy who may in his own mind fancy himself a pundit in the making, but who isn't doing a very good job of selling a really crappy bill, and who should stick to what he knows best, electoral analysis, not political prognosis or political advice.

It's like there's this whole generation of vaguely liberal pundits-in-training who seem to believe that the surest path to becoming the next David Broder or Joe Klein is to parrot beltway CW. Well, come to think of it, it IS the surest path. But the fact that they'd WANT to be like these hosebags, and view them as role models, should be disqualifying in itself.

Most of the time, incrementalism, which is what they preach, is how to get things done, and perfectly fine. Every generation or so, though, there has to be some radical improvement, and the opportunity opens up for one. In fact, without these quantum leaps, the incremental fixes would not be possible, because the previous playing field was all played out, thus the need for the quantum leap. These guys just can't seem to get that.

You'd think that a statistician would get non-linearity and inflection points.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
When you're healthy, wealthy and wise it's hard to look down.. (0.00 / 0)
Re question #1, the poor and sick are better off without this bill.

They can get free care through their states welfare agencies, most hospital emergency rooms or clinics or urgent care facilities, even some medicine can be gotten free-all without a gun to their heads.

They have NO money or very little of it! Where the hell are they suppose to get it from?? Talk about kicking a dog while he's down...
Will they have to worry about BK and collections agencies as a result of insurance agencies adding to the massive stresses they already face.

That mandate is the final straw in their coffins.  I'm with Olbermann's.
Take out that poison pill.  Remove the mandate and let those few Dems who then say NO fall, rather than take the whole party down.  

Nationalism is not the same thing as terrorism, and an adversary is not the same thing as an enemy.


[ Parent ]
It becomes much harder to budge over time I think (4.00 / 1)
My guess is that Nate reached that point a while back.  I doubt the 10,000th "You disagree with me therefore you must be a terrible person" will convince him.

http://transgendermom.blogspot....

[ Parent ]
Not (4.00 / 1)
trying to convince him.

[ Parent ]
Hmmm (4.00 / 2)
These arguments make too much sense to be adopted.
- Obama Sycophants  

Agitate.Liberate.Create.

Wow! All the arguments in one posting. Good, job, Ian! (4.00 / 1)
All those points have been raised in discussions before, but not as such an impressive list, which shows the full extent of the problem with the perversion of the bill. Imho that shoots down wonks like Ezra or Nate, who always point st some good points that are still in it (libe the subsidies), and disregard the obvious conclusion that this crippled legislation can't work economically. No, this simply won't be the first time 30 million people gain access to healthcare, because the subsidies alone will not be good enough to help them pay the premiums in that uncompettive market with its obscene profit margins and missing eincentives to keep costs down! It's like subsidizing rents for the homeless with up to $3000, but coupling this with the provision they have to take a room in Manhattan. That won't work.

That's why it's so important that Senator Burris, and now Senator Sanders (see QHs), too, make a stand for "competition, cost savings, and accountability". Those are not only progressive demands, those ar requirements that everybody who has a bit of knowledge of economy should see as insipensabl requirements! So, pls spread that word that in the current state, the bill won't work for the people, but only for increasing the profits of the insurers, as if obvious by their rising stock exchange prices. We need to interest a bigger part of the population opposing this, who oppose healthcare reform that will only be a giant bailout for the insurers.

So, pls spread the truth, oppose the forces of sellout, and support the rebel Senators fighting for the people, Roland Burris and Bernie Sanders!


Oops. I really need a copy editor! (0.00 / 0)
Some awful phrases, typos, and the arguments aren't crafted very well. Hop you can make sense of it. Sry, folks, I slept too long, just got up, and the coffee isn't taking effect yet...
8-(

[ Parent ]
This is definitely a case of the "cure" being worse (4.00 / 2)
than the disease. Thanks, Ian, for taking the time to break it down.

I feel very strongly that passing a bad bill now, (even with medicare buy in for age 55-64), will actually costs more lives because it will keep the medical death panel insurance industry operating at status quo for that much longer. (The whole whoop-dee-doo over the age 55 Medicare buy-in thing made me pissed anyway because the fact that people under 55 ever got sick or needed medical care or had "pre-existing conditions" and couldn't afford insurance got completely forgotten in the discussion).

It appears to me that the overwhelming majority of people in the "pass anything" camp are either currently insured or otherwise have no worries about getting medical care when they need it.  


I think, actually (0.00 / 0)
many of them need the no-recissions policy or the guaranteed issue, which are the two main things remaining in the bill which are actually worth having.  The question is whether the good they do will be outweighed by the bad.

[ Parent ]
Except (4.00 / 2)
Except that as the Senate bill stands now, those safeguards have been weakened by insertion of loopholes to the point where they're probably not worth the paper they're printed on.
Rescission allowed for "fraud"? That's what the insurers claim now when they rescind a policy- they don't (ostensibly) just do it arbitrarily. So what will change? It'll still be your lawyers against theirs (VERY bad odds.)

[ Parent ]
How exactly (0.00 / 0)
Getting through one really good bill, and with reconciliation you could put through a bill with a real public option, not the watered down House version, would be worth it.

Does reconciliation somehow make it easier to pass a strong public option in the house?

http://transgendermom.blogspot....

Yes, because it needs only 51 votes. (0.00 / 0)
Ok, it's not that easy, beccause the bill has to be broken up into two parts: One bill dealing with the sending parts, this means the subsidies, and this needs 60 votes. The other bill includes all stuff that is "budget neutral", and this needs only 51 votes (or 50 + VP Biden). And many progressive ammendments could go into the second bill, and 51 vots are MUCH easier to find than 60, of course. Now, I'm not totally sure how, for instance, the Medicare extension fits into the picture, but it would be logical it can be put into the second part if its designed in a way that the customers actually pay for that insurance and so this doen't come with additional costs for the administration.

Remember, the subsidies ar in the 60 votes bill, and that would be a problem for Lieberman. He can and would vote against the progressive ammendments in the other part, but they would still pass, his vote isn't necessary. And then he can't really vote against the spending, because the healthcar industry is very interested in getting this money into th market. Of course, they want their share of all teh billions, so they would pressure Lieberman to let this pass.

See? It's complicated, but there's a chance that this way a more progressive bill can muster the necessay votes.


[ Parent ]
Medicare extension is reconcilable (4.00 / 2)
Totally, no-brainer. It's the most reconcilable thing in the entire forest of proposals, because it directly affects current budgetary expenses.

You could make arguments against government insurance (e.g. medicare buy-in or public option) in reconciliation but they're pretty flimsy. The current bill is very similar to Romneycare so we don't even need a Dem president to pass it - we could get that out of President Romney and the Republican Congress in 2013 (maybe with fewer subsidies, although they'd probably reconcile out any extra we put in now).


[ Parent ]
Thx for clearing that up! (0.00 / 0)
I wasn't entirely sure about this. Good to have a confirmation, thx!

[ Parent ]
I find this persuasive. (4.00 / 5)
Any reform that was worth a damn was not going to result in the Insurers' stocks going up.  It was on thing not to utterly trash them, but this bill ensures they feel no pain at all.

If the mandate was yanked (not that that's a realistic possibility) - would it improve things?  My thought is that banning recission and denial for pre-existing without a mandate would ensure that this reform would not last, because the insurers themselves would want further reform.  They're too comfortable, and something needs to be done to make them want reform too.  I'd be happy to let them suffer some "free riders" who only seek coverage once they're sick.  


IMHO - You Left Out Most Important Reason (4.00 / 3)
After witnessing this dishonest charade - from the divergence of obama's rhetoric during campaign to his actions in the White House to the way the this administration and leadership sat down and let the process be undermined, does anyone think the "good stuff" promised in 2014 will actually happen after the midterms in 2010 and 2014.

This whole thing is a sham and should be rejected on its face for the political grandstanding it is.

We need to make EVERY candidate in 2010 and 2012 run on where they stand on healthcare - the sentiment of the nation is with us.  The dems behind this sell-out and the repugs do not represent the will of the people.

MAKE THEM RUN ON THIS AND WE WILL WIN!


Lieberman loves Nate and Ezra! He can't stop laughing now... (4.00 / 2)
...about all the alleged liberals being so busy putting lipstick on his pig. And he is patting his own back for all the progressives who have already accepted defeat. Who would have thought there are so many who support insurance friendly Liebercare by not doing anything against it? It's a miracle!
{/endsnark}

Really, folks, surrendering is nothing else but enabling Rahm and Lieberman. And that's wrong, wrong, wrong. Let's not give up fighting!


Is it worth putting in effort to kill it? (0.00 / 0)
Progressive leaders aren't eager to torpedo the bill, whilst centrists will happily pass a crappy bill, any crappy bill, that they can chalk 'Health Care Reform' on. It could be a bill lowering capital gains taxes to 5% and declaring the ACLU a terrorist organisation, and the White House would happily sign on if Lieberman supported it and it was called "The Awesome NonSocialist Magical Pony Healthcare Bill of 2009".

I'd focus the effort on disparaging it. Don't bother convincing senators to filibuster it - if Burris and Sanders want to, support them, but be aware that Republicans might vote for cloture just to throw a spanner in the works. Instead, convince senators to vote for it, but to give a statement first calling it a terrible bill and a wasted opportunity and blaming Obama, Emanuel, Lieberman, Bayh and the rest for it.

We need not to own the bill. We can acquisece, but we have to do so with supremely bad grace, and we have to be ready to use it as a stick to beat the centrists over the head with for years to come.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


Have to Disagree (4.00 / 1)
It increasingly sounds like the bill will pass and obama/rahm will declare that eating cold sh!t sandwich is somehow a "victory".

Why give the propaganda machine any more ammunition?

The message will be clearer if the bill FAILS.

They will shamelessly go on proclaiming this a good thing and then go on to the next issue to sell us out on.  We can do what you suggest more effectively if the bill fails.

They are counting on passing this bill whether progressives/liberals support it anyhow.  How does playing their game help us?


[ Parent ]
If it fails, they blame us (0.00 / 0)
If it passes, we call it a shit sandwich, barely changed from the current clusterfuck.

Then, when the bill becomes unpopular as it fails to live up to expectations, we attack Obama for selling us out and the centrists for betraying their constituents.

In my opinion, it is superior to letting the bill fail, but I'm not even sure we could kill it. Given that that's the case, we want at least to have plausible grounds to denounce it and distance ourselves from it.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
A good thing (0.00 / 0)
Make Republicans come out in the daylight to support their corporate paymasters.  I'm sure the teabaggers will love that.  Maybe a few will get primaried out of existence.

[ Parent ]
I don't understand this point (4.00 / 1)
18. Was the public option ever an attainable near-term political goal?

Yes.  The President wants a bill very badly.  If Progressive legislators were willing to walk, they would have bargaining leverage.

The assumption here, even in a scenario where we assume the president is neutral, is that the president has the same bargaining power with Lieberman as he does with Sanders (or other progressives). That's simply not true. Lieberman and Sanders operate with completely different predicates. Sanders already has a de facto impulse to pass health reform, and is a theoretically rational participant, whereas Lieberman does not care in the least whether this bill passes, and is generally irrational.

Unfortunately, Sanders will vote for this bill as is.  


LIE-berman is just playing his role (0.00 / 0)
Proclaiming him to be less than rational is not helpful - HE IS CALLING THE SHOTS HERE and doing so with the full blessing of obama and the white house.

Say what you will, but this is patently absurd and puts responsibility for this on the wrong foot.


[ Parent ]
Public option does not require Lieberman (0.00 / 0)
Reconciliation allows him to be ignored.

[ Parent ]
I see no good (4.00 / 2)
evidence Lieberman is not doing what the President wants done.

And yes, the president has leverage, especially if he works with Reid.  Lieberman may not want much, but he does like being a chairman.


[ Parent ]
I have only one question for Nate Silver (4.00 / 3)
why does he trust the insurance companies!?! To believe they will do an about face and suddenly  become good corporate citizens, simply  because we have given them more power and  money -- it just does not compute for me.

Montani semper liberi

Why?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! (0.00 / 0)
The corpocracy, which includes the insurance industry, banking, and the military-industrial-media complex (all tightly interlocked) GAVE THE BOATLOADS OF MONEY!

However, its not about "believing in them" - its about doing the will of your masters and trying to fool the public into believing it is the will of the people.


[ Parent ]
I know (4.00 / 2)
I am just pointing out that this assumption, that insurance companies will renounce their sinful ways and from henceforth only use their powers for good, underlies everything Nate is arguing.  

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
I have another (4.00 / 3)
Why does he think he knows anything about subjects other than baseball and statistics? Because he clearly doesn't. His 15 minutes of fame during election season have gone to his head.

[ Parent ]
Mandates (4.00 / 1)
Great post, Ian, thank you. For me, and a lot of people, the mandates are key. We're self-employed and pay $600-$700/month for two adults with two kids on S-CHIP. We can't afford much more than what we pay, which will go up next year, guaranteed. And I don't know that bankruptcy would discharge a legal mandate to buy insurance.

So I say kill the bill. However, how you do that is the question, to Chris' points in his posts about picking your poison. Progressives also need to get their act together quickly to figure out how, in the next few election cycles, we can work to replace conservative Democrats with either wacko Republicans (worst case) or progressive Democrats (best case) while replacing Obama in 2012 as the Democratic candidate for President. We also should have a plan to replace Congressional Republicans with progressives anywhere we can.

Public sentiment is on our side, especially if Howard Dean and others stand up and articulate early and often what a mandate without a public option means. Trust me, if the average person knew what the bill will mean for them, the Senate would back down from the wave of protest. This is very easy to demagogue. And we should steal this march from the Republicans who will do it anyway.

Bottomline, though, how you get to a more progressive electoral result over the next 2-8 years, that is the question we need to solve in the next few months. We need a plan. We need messaging. And we need public champions who have access to the media who will stand up early and often.


One question (0.00 / 0)
17. What are the potential upsides and downsides to using the 2010 midterms as a referendum on the public option, with the goal of achieving a 'mandate' for a public option that could be inserted via reconciliation?

Can't be done.  The Democratic party is not willing to run  on it, and progressives cannot run on it alone.  Again, there is no indication the President wanted a public option, certainly none that he pushed for it any meaningful way.

Let's say that the HCR effort fails. No bill is passed. Doesn't that change your answer? Why would the Democratic Party not be willing to run on the issue in 2010? Why wouldn't Obama still have a burning desire to get HCR accomplished? If its that important to him, why would he give up?

Anyway, how effectively the Democrats can run on HRC in 2010 is dependent upon how the failure plays in the M$M. Best case is if the GOP and conservodems get tagged with stopping the bill. That's why they should call the bluff and make them filibuster.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


"Why would the Democratic Party not be willing to run on the issue in 2010?" (0.00 / 0)
They won't have the votes. Look at Chris' Ballot and Senate count!


[ Parent ]
Statistic are nice and all (0.00 / 0)
but that's not the only question I asked.

The more critical one to answer, IMHO, is why the desire on Obama's part to "get something passed" wille evaporate if no bill is passed. If he (and his "centrist" allies) turn away from the reform effort and try to "run away" from HCR, how does that translate into a winning electoral strategy?

Shorter: if HCR is not passed how can the Democrats NOT address the issue in the 2010 election?



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
"the desire on Obama's part" may still be there, but not the means. (0.00 / 0)
Not passing anything, or passing crap, will hurt the Dems in 2010. So, as I said, it doesn't matter what they want, they will be unable to do it. And, sure, Obama will desperately want a reeform to show when campaigning for reelection, but this doesn't matter. He shoots himself into the foot now. This crap won't motivate voters, and not passing anything won't help, too. If he doesn't change course now, he's toast. Another one term lamer.

[ Parent ]
The summary of failure (0.00 / 0)
Not passing anything, or passing crap, will hurt the Dems in 2010.

OK, so let's overlook the implicit blackmail in your comment. That is: support HCR or hurt the Democratic Party.

And let's be more realistic. Dems are screwed. They either lose because they vote no, or lose because they capitulated themselves into a bad bill.

The warped question that emerges is, "which is the best way to lose?".

Obama is not up for election in 2010 and if all I'm gonna get from him is a more articulate version of GWB explaining to me why real reform and change is not possible - why the fuck should I care if he's a 1-term President or not?

 

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Uh, I'm not blackmailing anyone, Spitty (0.00 / 0)
But I sure wish the progressives would! And I'm NOT saying "support HCR or hurt the Democratic Party". I'm saying, improve the crappy bill, or hurt the Damn party!

And as for "which is the best way to lose?": Wrong question! Thos question has to be 'which is the best way to get pout of the trap, and get a bill done that makes sense to the voters?'.

And the answer, imho, is reconcilation. Divide the bill, improve the "budget neutral" part and pass it with a simple majority vote. Pass the sponding part (the subsidies) with 60 votes. Lieberman won't oppose the subsidies, the insurance companies want their share of the billions!


[ Parent ]
You show me the improved HCR bill (0.00 / 0)
Then we'll talk about whether this can be still be a good and effective bill.

I'd like to as optimistic as you are, but I don't see the Democratic Party as being very effective at the scenario you've outlined.

I'm saying, improve the crappy bill, or hurt the Damn party!

What chances do you think there are for improving the bill? Oh, I know that people can dream up ways for such to occur, but given what we've seen from the Administration and the bulk of the Democratic Party, I have no more illusions that they actually want a better bill.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Spitty, come on, I don't have a crystal ball here! (0.00 / 0)
"You show me the improved HCR bill"
Now, how shall I do this? I can only guess that the "old" compromise, including th Medicare extnsion, has a very good chance to succeed in recocilation!

"What chances do you think there are for improving the bill?"
A good one! In reconilation, the bill has to be broken up into two parts: One part includes all stuff that is "budget neutral", and this needs only 51 votes (or 50 + VP Biden). And many progressive ammendments could go into this part, and 51 vots are MUCH easier to find than 60, of course.

The other part deals with the spending provisions, this means the subsidies, and this needs 60 votes. And it's unlikely Lieberman will vote gainst this, because the insurance corporations want their share of those billions!

So, really a good chance that this way a better reform will pass. Rethuglicans successfully used that method several times. It works, it just takes a bit more time.


[ Parent ]
I'm saying that I'm finished listening to how nice it would be (4.00 / 1)
if the bill could be made better and asking that someone show me how they made it better.

Until then, mark my ballot "no".


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
You don't have a ballot, Spitty. Or are you a Senator? (0.00 / 0)
Apart from this, now you tell me! Why did you make me type all that stuff with my already broken keyboard?

[ Parent ]
Give $40 million and I'll run against Amy Klobuchar (4.00 / 1)
Then I'll have a ballot :)  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Kill the bill (4.00 / 2)
A bad bill will be with us for decades, no bill is a one or two election wonder.

[ Parent ]
There is a cap on expenses (I think) (0.00 / 0)
I'd be happy to be corrected if this is wrong, or I'm misinterpreting it, but there do appear to be annual caps for those below 400% of the poverty level, though they're way too high.  For example, $3,867 under the Senate bill for families between 134 and 200% of the poverty level (133% and under get Medicaid).  See http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.... .

FWIW, I'm for killing the bill, in large part because these caps are so inadequate, but I like to have my facts straight.


These out of pocket payments come on top of the premiums! (0.00 / 0)
And, afaics, there's is nothing that limits those premiums. In states where an insurance company has a monopoly, they will be exorbitant.

No, really, this "reform" is simply a swindle. This won't result in 30 million uninsured bing able to get insurance. I would b surprisd if even ten million would manage to accomplish that. The system is rigged against them.  


[ Parent ]
I'm 90% sure (0.00 / 0)
that has been taken out of the latest iteration of the bill, as far as I'm aware.  Yearly and lifetime caps are back in

[ Parent ]
Except (0.00 / 0)
that Nate is correct on most of these points.

The reason this bill is unlikely to be killed is that it is better than the status quo.

It expands coverage.  It mandates coverage for pre-existing conditions.  It provides subsidies.  It has cost controlling mechanisms, just not very impressive ones.

I'm a little puzzled about the recent turn against the bill.  It has been clear for months that, at best, it was likely to include the weakest of public options.  In fact, for quite some time, everyone took for granted that the public option was dead.  The choice has been, to any astute observer, between no public option and one that doesn't fulfill its intended purpose - but that was the case on the day Obama was inaugurated. The day Hillary conceded the primary was the day I gave up on any real healthcare reform.

The argument against mandates is vacuous.  I already have a mandate: I buy health insurance at the terms the insurers dictate.  I am forced to subsidize a corrupt industry.  I could decide that it is just too much of a strain on my family's budget and use the emergency rooms or pay cash, but if my gamble doesn't pay off and I get cancer, I shift major costs onto whatever government aid I get, end up in bankruptcy, or die.  There are people who take that gamble, and we all pay.  

Olbermann got quite a bit of praise for his idiot rant, proclaiming that he, brave millionaire pundit with no dependents, would refuse to buy "mandated" insurance, and encouraging the rest of us to follow a path that is suicide for anyone who isn't rich.  How much more out of touch can he be?

Clearly, it is not significant reform.  Americans as probably going to continue to pay double or triple what is paid in other countries for healthcare.  The insurance industry will continue to profit.  

But it isn't worth than nothing.  


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