No Democratic Senators will filibuster the health bill from the left

by: Chris Bowers

Fri Dec 18, 2009 at 12:30


If you think there a chance one or more Democratic Senator will filibuster the health insurance bill from the left, or if you think that the left should be blamed if the bill fails, then you need to think again.  Recent actions and statements from Roland Burris, Bernie Sanders, and Russ Feingold make it clear no such left-wing filibuster will take place.  As such, if the bill is defeated, it will be entirely because of right-wing opposition.

(More in the extended entry.)

Chris Bowers :: No Democratic Senators will filibuster the health bill from the left
Roland Burris, yesterday:

Sen. Roland Burris (D-Ill.) is backing away from threats to block the health care bill because it lacks a public option.

"We'll see what it is, but what the situation is now is the realization that we can't kill the bill," Burris told POLITICO. "That's the realization."

"We can't kill the bill" is a crystal clear statement of Roland Burris's intentions.

Russ Feingold, about eleven hours ago:

Senator Russ Feingold, the anti-war Wisconsin Democrat, was the key for Democrats after he agreed to vote for the measure, citing Republican tactics to hold the Pentagon money hostage in the fight over health care. His initial resistance left Democrats one vote short and his colleagues cheered him when he announced his reversal in a closed-door party meeting Thursday evening.

"I am against continued funding for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq," said Mr. Feingold, who was personally encouraged by President Obama to vote with the party. "But it became apparent that this was really an effort to slow down a bill they were going to vote for anyway to destroy health care and that is not something I wanted to see happen."

Feingold is willing to vote for cloture on funding for two wars he opposes in order to prevent the health insurance bill from being blocked.  Again, this leaves no doubt that he will vote for cloture on the health insurance bill, too.

Finally, two days ago Bernie Sanders withdrew his single-payer amendment to prevent Republican "stalling":

"I really do appreciate [Senator Coburn's] desire to make the American people know this through 10 or 12 or 14 hours of the reading, but I think he may have overdone it a little bit. But you know this is nothing more than an ongoing, stalling tactic on the part of the Republicans."

Why should Bernie Sanders care about stalling tactics if he currently intends to vote against cloture?  Apparently, because Harry Reid told him to care:

Nearly three hours and 139 pages later, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., surrendered. He waved Sanders into the cloakroom. Sanders emerged on the Senate floor minutes later and withdrew his amendment calling for government-run health care.

"This is nothing more than an ongoing stalling tactic on the part of the Republicans," Sanders complained of Coburn's stunt.

That sure doesn't sound like someone who will defy the leadership on the overall bill.  Further, keep in mind that earlier in the year Sanders was trying to organize all Democratic Senators to vote for cloture on the health care bill.

****

There will be no left-wing filibuster of the health care bill in the Senate.  Also, good luck running left-wing primary challenges against Feingold or Sanders for not doing so--you will lose by at least 80%-20%, with what little support your candidate receives coming from the right-wing of the party.

The lefties out there who want to defeat the health insurance bill should start working with Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman.  Of course, supporting them will only result in more hostage taking, such as stripping out help for low-income people on Medicaid, sending women's health backward on Stupak, and support for the elderly disabled on Ted Kennedy's CLASS act.  And the bill will pass even then.

The only hope for improving the bill will be through a conference committee in the House.  In that chamber, a broad swath of members have revolted, including many of Rahm Emanuel and Steny Hoyer's "untouchables," and are demanding a conference committee.  I confirmed with a White House last night that a conference committee is now likely (second question on this audio file).

I don't know what improvement can be made in the conference committee, especially with several members of the Democratic Senator caucus not operating in good faith.  At this point, however, it is the only way.


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What concessions did these Senators win (4.00 / 3)
for their agreement not to filibuster?


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


Why are you asking questions (4.00 / 5)
to which you already know the answer?

[ Parent ]
to evoke an answer from you on the record (4.00 / 1)


Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

[ Parent ]
Great (0.00 / 0)
That really sounds like good-faith participation in the community here.

[ Parent ]
Hey, don't take that answer as mine (0.00 / 0)
You go on the record many times in a single day.  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Maybe I missed something (4.00 / 1)
there are details of which I may not have intimate knowledge.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Oh hahhahahahahahha. (4.00 / 3)
Sorry.  Thanks for the laugh.  It seems like ages since I heard that sound emit from my lips.

[ Parent ]
That's easy (4.00 / 4)
They were promised that they wouldn't be given the Dean treatment, in both words and deeds, if they didn't help block the final bill. I.e. they were told the same thing that house progressives were told a while back--play ball, and we won't crush you.

Until progressives develop real power, namely the ability and most importantly willingness to block bad legislation and basically hold it hostage until it's substantially improved, they will continue to be treated with such undeniable, and, really, deserved contempt.

Also, I suspect that they were told that their votes weren't really needed, procedurally, because the WH was fully prepared to either use reconciliation to pass this bill, or water it down even more to come up with enough GOP votes to make up the difference.

Bottom line, there simply aren't enough senate progressives willing to stand firm on this, and everyone knows it, reducing them to angry outburts and little more. This is up to the house. Where I now expect more or less the same thing to happen.

Which will ultimately only reinforce the perception that Dems are only marginally better than Repubs, and remove a major reason for voters to prefer them over Repubs, ultimately hurting them politically. Which I suppose Dems know, but to them, it's worth the tradeoff in terms of the benefits of having big corporations on their side.

Plus ca change...

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Come on, Chris, you were very nitpicking recently... (0.00 / 0)
...and fairness demands to apply the same standard now. Burris says, he doesn't want to kill the bill, but that doesn't xclude he wants it to be improved in reconciliation. And Sanders, well, you didn't show anything that eh will vote no on cloture. He just withdrew his ammendment, that didn't have any chance to win 60 votes anyway. That's just a way to prevent rethuglican delay, nothing more.

And Feingold, he never said anything about opposing. What is he doing in this story?

But who's missing is Nelson. Last time I checked he still was a Dem senator What about him? Not filibustering? Positively?

Also, what's this: "Also, good luck running left-wing primary challenges against Feingold or Sanders for not doing so"? Who proposed this? Pls show us the offending strawmen!


Well, in this podcast of today, Burris sure sounds like backpeddaling (0.00 / 0)
http://www.npr.org/templates/s...
Damn. Who's he going to fool? Cost reduction and competition through the ridiculous exchanges? My ass! In some small states, there won't be anything to exchange at all.

[ Parent ]
They have all been neutered... n.t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
" If the bill is defeated, it will be entirely because of right-wing opposition." (4.00 / 8)
That is Bower's opinion (and the facts bear him out) but clearly not the opinion of the White House. As I posted in the quick hits, the White House continues its war on the left (as well as Bush's other wars):

From dailyKOS (of all places!):
"When it became clear to even the most hopeful of hopers that the public option was dead beyond reviving, the Medicare buy-in was proposed. For young Americans, it was not such a great alternative, but it was still progress of a sort, and many progressives, in particular, Dr. Dean, supported it, eager to keep the legislation alive.  

Clearly on a roll, the Party of No-gotiators and, of course, Lieberman and a few other Dems said, nuh-uh to this latest compromise.

On the other hand, after supporting the bill through thick and thin and biting the bullet after the public option was axed, Dean got the blowtorch treatment from the President's spokesman. Just as left-progressives are getting it now."

http://meteor-blades.dailykos....

It was Mike Lux' thesis a little while back that the White House needed its progressive base just as the base needed the Obama administration. I am paying closer attention now that I have been told that I would have understood how moderate and conservative and warlike Obama really was if I had paid closer attention. So having heard from numerous sources, it is clear the emerging bill is what Obama wanted from the beginning and he argued against the public option and medicare buy-in longer and harder with the Congressional leadership than he ever even showed pro forma support. I think Lux' thesis needs revision. The White House continues to use the left in a Sista Souljah way, carrying out "tough guy" Emanuel's idea that beating up on the left is a winning formula. I think what Lux has to revisit is what should the left do in response. As we all know, his ideal partnership of the left and Obama is one partner short of a partnership.


An Important Point! (4.00 / 4)
The current "split" among progressives between those who continue to hope for something good to come out of this debate, versus those who've essentially given up and are calling like Howard Dean for Democrats to jettison this piece of crap has been likened by numerous commentators to the split between those who opposed versus initially supported the Iraq war.

I'd like to carry that analogy further: the bill is likely to create the same "buyer's remorse" among all who may hold their nose and support it.

Of course this won't help Obama or Democrats who passed the bill, but it will help rally the progressive base to unity in opposition, once it becomes clear how utterly worthless and horrible this bill really is.

That is -- at least unless they take the mandates out -- if they're not going to contain costs or provide a public option or medicare buy-in with serious subsidies, then take OUT the mandate and focus the bill on insurance industry reform and deal with mandates and expanding coverage later.  


[ Parent ]
Well, yes and no... (4.00 / 2)
Basically, if the "left" joins in to filibuster, it will still be defeated because of right-wing opposition... they just managed to convince someone on the left to go along with their plans.

If you want to take that as some kind of moral victory, well, I guess that's fine... but it will not be treated as such in probably just about any media.


[ Parent ]
The House, The House, The House! (4.00 / 5)
Richard Trumka noted that the Senate bill, as presently constituted, would be DOA in the House.  Labor has much, much greater influence--historically and at present--in the House than in the Senate.  Now that a conference committee appears likely (I would go farther based on Trumka's statements and say "is a certainty," but I don't want to jinx it), many things are back on the table.

First, passage of any bill is now far from guaranteed.

Second, the WH--which is still desperate to pass any bill--should be getting the message that any remaining concessions will have to be made in favor of progressives/labor.  I think the WH is crapping its pants over the new backbone being grown by progressives and labor.

Third, while the public option is most certainly dead, progressives can still do some good in conference by, for example, insisting on stripping mandates from the bill.  Since mandates don't go into effect for several years later, as David Waldman points out, what's so wrong with leaving mandates out in order to guarantee passage of all the other wonderfulholiday goodies we're being told about?

This is NOT the time to go "Otter" on us ("War's over, man--Wormer dropped the big one.").  The appropriate reply, of course:

"Over?  Did I hear you say "over?"  Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?  Hell, no!  And it ain't over now!  Cause when the going gets tough...the tough get going!  Who's with me?  Let's go!"


Yeah, that's the right spirit! Lt's give them something to chew on (4.00 / 4)
"Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!"

[ Parent ]
That's Why Obama is "Stepping Up His Involvement" (4.00 / 5)
He needs to roll the House into accepting a piece of shit. And he can only do that by doing what he NEVER did with Senate Conservatives -- put maximum pressure on House negotiators to fold!

He has a LOT more leverage with individual House districts than he does with Senators. Remember Bush's White House negotiators bullying individual House members: "That's the most expensive vote you will ever cast?!"

He will try and get a few cosmetic amendments in.

But, we're really not going to get a bill out of the Senate as long as Ben Nelson has his way.

He said in his interview that he doesn't want a bill -- he prefers to see "price controls" before "expanded coverage."

You know what that means! NO to subsidies, NO to expanded Medicare! NO to expanded coverage! YES to mandates!  


[ Parent ]
Obama is "Keeping Score" On Those Who Vote Against Him (4.00 / 5)
Nelson, Lieberman, Landrieu, Lincoln, Baucus? Don't be silly. Its de Fazio and the progressives. Attacking the left? It's the gift that keeps on giving.

http://fdlaction.firedoglake.c...


[ Parent ]
It Gives Right Up To 2010! (4.00 / 7)
That is. At that point, they're going to need a new narrative. Keep stabbing your base and that base is NOT going to turn out and support you.

Period.

And a lot of Democratic Congressmen are going to have to face learn that lesson in 2010!

They've even started saying that "we have enough money to hold off the GOP!" -- which is of course EXACTLY what the GOP said in 2006 as I recall! They thought their corporate donations would forever insulate them from angry constituents.


[ Parent ]
Defeatism is not an option here (4.00 / 2)
In my respectful opinion, there's been too much of that here and elsewhere recently.  If you fight a difficult battle against seemingly impossible odds, occasionally you will get a surprising win--or at least a draw.  But, it is a certainty that if we give up now and run away with our tails between our legs (Not my fault!  We wuz robbed!  Obama's too powerful!  But they lied to us!), we will not only resoundingly lose this battle--we will get punked in every future battle as well.

We don't have any more time to sulk.  This issue is too damned important.  Sure, we may get our asses handed to us even if we do fight--but I'd rather go down fighting than sulking in the corner.  To continue the analogy, maybe we can figuratively bloody a few well-deserving noses in the process.


[ Parent ]
Or you could end up like General Custer (4.00 / 1)
If you fight a difficult battle against seemingly impossible odds, occasionally you will get a surprising win--or at least a draw.

The mandate will remain no matter what.  Thus anything that passes is a defeat for the millions forced to buy insurance they can't afford.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
What is there possibly to lose by fighting to remove the mandate? (4.00 / 1)
Making a declarative statement--

The mandate will remain no matter what

--does not make it so.  This isn't done; and, if your second statement is correct, then progressives should fight the bill and launch an aggressive public campaign to highlight this point.  A strange bedfellows coalition could prevent some real harm, assuming this bill is harmful.


[ Parent ]
Our minds (4.00 / 1)
As in Gerald Ford having played football too long without a helmet.  It leads to exhaustion and demoralization.  We are not Energizer bunnies.  We have to regroup and pursuing this phantom inside straight leaves us on the eternal treadmill.

See my post below, a radical change of viewpoint.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
I respectfully disagree (4.00 / 1)
We're all pretty durned tired; but, if we lay down and take it on this one without a fight, it will be a crystal clear demonstration that we do not have the stomach for politics.  It is an extraordinarily nasty game; and the Blue Dogs and Conservadems win it, every single time, because they're willing to play hardball.

[ Parent ]
It's not hardball to let the other side define the terms of the fight (0.00 / 0)
One can't wage all fights on all fronts.  I'm not so tired, and I'm not laying down.  My goal is to develope a plan, the Full Court Press, to PUNISH the Democrats for having set us up, sold us out, and left us facing some version of Stupak.  (435 insurgent primary filings for Congress in 2012, if not sooner.)  It's not defeatist to choose when and where to strike.  When you're outgunned (oh yes we are), it's the only way to fight.

So yes, my assessment is that we will end up with a mandate.  The opposition to that is interesting, given that it's sprung up recently as a reaction to othe things.  My assessment is that we'll end up with some version of Stupak.

My assessment is that our protest has been factored into the Democratic Party political budget, and they've determined that they can ride it out.  Without a cohesive plan on the part of progressives to hit back, they will ride it out.

"The spirit of the people will never be defeated" is written on many a tombstone.

Michael Corleone was no defeatist when McCluskey broke his jaw on the steps of the hospital, but he knew you can't just react to deliberate provocations.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
Great idea! (0.00 / 0)
I really like the Full Court Press.  I'm just not ready to give up this particular fight at this moment.  Let me amend my earlier comments and implications:  I think your plan is fantastic hardball politics (just what we need), and is firmly grounded in realpolitik.

I just think we can do both.  We can continue to fight on HCR while regrouping along the lines you suggest.  If nothing else, maybe we could do some testing of various tactics during this fight, which could enable any newly elected progressives to fight smarter next time.


[ Parent ]
Thank you (0.00 / 0)
Did you read the whole post?

One important thing to understand is that the Full Court Press is not a strategy, it is a tactic.  Thus it passes no judgment on your continuing the healthcare fight, and is in fact fully compatible with a broad array of tactics.  I see the Full Court Press as an addition to, an enhancement of, other tactics, not necessarily in competition.

The broader strategy is critically needed, but we can't hothouse it.  It will emerge from the deployment of new creative tactics.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
Future battles??? For what? (4.00 / 2)
What do you expect to be any different?   It is time to quit playing their game and to start playing ours.   Until we can hurt them, we have no power.  I think we need to learn from the Club for Growth.  

[ Parent ]
Not disagreeing with you... (0.00 / 0)
I completely agree that we need to start figuring ways we can hurt them.  This has always been the way to successfully play hardball politics, from long before LBJ.  But, I do not see the value in laying down and quitting right now on this fight.

[ Parent ]
The Full Court Press will hurt them (0.00 / 0)
So many House members run unopposed.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

[ Parent ]
ONLY if it becomes real! So far, it's only a paper tiger. (4.00 / 1)
Any progress recently?

[ Parent ]
Slow but steady (4.00 / 1)
One by one, people are asking how they can help.  One by one, people are saying they like the idea, but aren't ready to go so far as to say "sign me up."  There is guarded interest in various places.  The response is better than I had hoped, but we have to reach many more people before attaining critical mass.

ONLY if it becomes real! So far, it's only a paper tiger.

I couldn't agree with you more.  This is why I have been arguing that we target 2012, rather than 2010, although some are more ambitious.  We have to figure out at what point our task transforms from making Full Court Press a household word to concretizing structures, to then starting to line up candidates.  Depends on how much support we get, and to what extent there are other efforts along similar lines.  I'm not rushing it because I'm confident the basic concept is sound.

If you are interested in knowing a little bit more about how I got here, and how my thoughts are evolving, you might check out the following on DocuDharma:

http://www.docudharma.com/diar...
http://www.docudharma.com/diar...

I'm not some kid that just got off the turnip truck (been there, done that), and believe me, what I'm undertaking weighs heavily on me.  That even a few people are looking to me for leadership frightens me no end.

But not doing this frightens me even more.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
Hmm, no criticism, but how about reaching out to experienced activists? (0.00 / 0)
Why should you try to invent the wheel for the umpteenth time? Wouldn't it help mightily if you would get some experienced old hands on board to help with preparing the foundations? How about contacting MoveOn, or another org, which may be interested in the new approach?

[ Parent ]
It's occurred to me (4.00 / 1)
I assure you that MoveOn will not support this.  I'm a member.

But such outreach is part of the plan.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
Excellent point (4.00 / 1)
If there is going to be any action to improve the bill it will more than likely have to come from the House.  

Chris makes excellent points supporting his argument that the bill WILL NOT be killed in the Senate by progressives joining the filibuster (whether it should or not is another argument).  I'll make one more: any Democrat who joins the filibuster from the left might surprisingly easily be counterbalanced with a newfound cloture vote from the Republicans.  Olympia Snowe might decide she could stand to vote for cloture if Bernie Sanders, say opposed it.  Who knows, they could get Voinovich out of the blue or one or two others - maybe just to punish the Left - out of spite.

But let's say the House stands firm on this issue: funding the damned thing with increased taxes on the rich in place of taxing workers' hard-fought-for benefits (for which, in many instances, they forewent wage increases in the past).  Let's say that's in the conference report.  Ben Nelson is going to filibuster over that if that was the only difference for what he previously voted for?  Somehow, I don't think that even Obama and Emanuel would allow it to die that way.

Or maybe one or two other issues.  It's called shaking the apples out of the tree, folks.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
I Don't Think Filibusters Should Be Tolerated! (0.00 / 0)
1. The idea that ANY member of the Democratic caucus would filibuster a major policy initiative in order to block a vote is OUTRAGEOUS and ought to be banned. So, I'm not sad to see Senators refuse to do it.

Party discipline on this MUST be improved. The problem is that right-wingers like Nelson are allowed to get away with it. But we have to start somewhere to change the Senate culture that stalling tactics WITHIN the party are acceptable and voting with Republicans on a procedural issues is perfectly "normal."

2. As for passing the bill, the ONLY chance is not the conference committee, it's reconciliation.

You have to hope that at some point Democrats are going to have had enough of Nelson, Lieberman, Landrieu and Lincoln and Baucus, and say "screw it!" Probably February after they've loaded a bunch of NEW demands on top of the old ones.

Because it's ALWAYS Lucy and the football with these ass-hats.

Nelson has just raised his list of demands to 6!:


  1.  Asked if he would vote for cloture even if his initiative to restrict abortion were adopted, Nelson flatly said "no."

  2. Nelson not only said a vote before Christmas was not feasible, he joked about it taking until next Christmas.

  3. Nelson said unless the bill's Medicaid expansion provisions were made optional he would oppose cloture.

  4. Nelson said the bill's revenue provisions were unacceptable because the economy was bad.

  5. Nelson said because the subsidies which provide the bill's coverage expansion couldn't be paid for without additional revenue, they needed to be "scaled-back"

  6. Nelson also that unless cost control were addressed first, coverage couldn't be expanded.

What this really comes down to is simple bad faith. Nelson was in danger of being negotiated into a corner where some deal would "remove his objections" to the abortion language and force him to vote for the bill -- so he raised his demands because he doesn't WANT a bill to pass.

They will simply keep going up the nearer the Senate gets to 60. So, realistically, there's NOTHING to pass unless the House just throws up it's hands and votes for this garbage anyway or the Senate comes back in January and rams whatever they can get through reconciliation.

And he's only the first. Each hostage taker will add additional demands. Think Landrieu and Lincoln haven't noted the way that Lieberman has rolled Obama and the Senate? Why shouldn't they play the same game Nelson is?

And what's to stop Lieberman from adding additional demands on top of the ones he has, once he sees Nelson stealing the spotlight with HIS demands?

The entire point for these criminal scum is to keep raising their demands until the bill dies, then they can blame the "liberals" for demanding too much! That's their wicked and unparliamentary game and it's not going to change.

It's not as if they WANT a bill to pass -- they prefer to see it defeated! We're only at the BEGINNING of the "non-negotiable demands" stage. And the ass-hats are going to keep raising the ante until somebody says "enough!"

And the only "enough" in the bag is reconciliation and passing a bill with less than 60 votes.

I hope that when Obama realizes that he's never going to get 60 votes he just goes out and demands reconciliation. As long as he thinks he can screw down on the liberals some more to force anything remotely good out of the bill, he'll continue.

Since none of the evil four WANTS a bill to pas so they're going to keep yanking the football away at the last minute. By February at the latest, it will be obvious 60 votes is impossible. Then it's fish or cut bait time for Obama.

He either goes on a FULL war-path to push reconciliation, or else folds and takes his lumps.  


One other point: The mocking tone of your story. (4.00 / 5)
Especially this "gem": "The lefties out there who want to defeat the health insurance bill should start working with Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman." Pls spare us your bad jokes, ok? You know damn well that it's impossible to work with those liars. Any compromise negotiated with them is worth nothing just an hour later!

Really, you advocate total surrender here, and you presented your arguments for this rcently. That's ok, of course, it's your opinion. But this doesn't give you any standing to brag about this, as if it gives you any personal pleasure to see the hopes of those who didn't give up, and who stomped for a better outcome, vanishing like arctic ice! Would you pls remember that the enemy is the rethuglicans, big money, the Obama administration, the corrupt Senators, you name them, but not us!


This increasingly looks like an unwinnable war (4.00 / 2)
Reconciliation just isn't happening.  That Feingold refuses to vote against cloture on war funding makes me think it is even more likely that he will vote against using budget reconciliation for health care just as he voted against using it for cap-and-trade.  And I don't think he is the only health care reform supporter who is also a process hawk.  The filibuster isn't being destroyed anytime soon.  That means the only path to any health care is going through either Nelson and Lieberman or the Maine Republicans or some combination thereof.

I just don't see how it's possible.  I don't see this as total surrender.  I see this as understanding political reality and trying to find a way to withdraw with honor, just as we wish to be done in Iraq.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
"I don't see this as total surrender" Aw, come on! (4.00 / 3)
Surrender IS the "political reality". OK, we may only surrender the battlefield, and withdraw in horror (no honor in this whimpy flight), to fight another day, but still...

And what's especially unnerving is the total absence of leadership, of anyone showing the silver line at the horizon, of a way to fight back. It's devastating.


[ Parent ]
a radical change of viewpoint (4.00 / 3)
Progressives see things as battle after battle, fight after fight.  Over this, that and the other.

The Democratic Party operatives only see ONE constant fight for power, spoils and control.  And their view is ultimately more correct.  It renders them more able to shift resources from front to front and always stay one (or two) steps ahead of the left.

The main reason I'm not calling on progressives to defeat this bill is that I think it is out of their control in any event.  Remember how it was revealed back in 2001 that Ford Motor knew about Firestone tire defects that killed hundreds of people and injured hundreds more, but had concluded that paying out money in the resultant lawsuits was cheaper than replacing the tires?

Likewise, the Democratic Party has already factored in the current progressive howling and yowling into their political "budget."

We don't have to "surrender" anything.  We need to make a shift of front.  We see a similar debacle shaping up around jobs creation.  Obama's stated jobs program is essentially tax breaks for small business and infrastructure projects for existing business.  No direct creation WPA-style of a single job.

We can trust that the Republicans will do their Dr. No thing, and the real attack will come from right-wing Dems who will demand that "job-killers" like OSHA and FMLA and union rights be stripped out in exchange for giving the store away in exchange for allowing business to be given more tax breaks.

Seeing this as one multi-fronted fight rather than a series of fights, we can go into this on the basis of what we have learned around healthcare.  We get ahead of the curve FOR ONCE!  No benefit of the doubt to Obama.  No, gee, we been betrayed.  We go in fighting demanding that the U.S. create jobs, and if our reps don't back us, then we find a tactic to hurt them with.  Uh ...

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
I uprated your remark BUT (4.00 / 1)
your title should have been "This increasingly looks like an unwinnable battle".  There is still the House.  I don't rule out seeing some smallish improvements there.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

[ Parent ]
I can live with that change (0.00 / 0)
If Obama is able to, he would be smart to see if he can put in some supposed concessions to Conservadems in the Senate bill for the sole purpose of giving House progressives something to remove and feel they've won something.

Of course, Joe Lieberman is being such a prick about things that he might block anything that gives the left even a little joy.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
who are many of Rahm Emanuel and Steny Hoyer's "untouchables," (4.00 / 1)
I assume you mean Blue Dogs? But if they are opposed from the right how does that help us make the bill better?

If They Are Defeated It Makes For a Better But Smaller Caucus! (4.00 / 3)
After 2010 Democrats are going to have to learn how to govern with fewer than 60 votes anyway. The more cohesive the caucus the better.

If the Blue Dogs are the ones to lose then it makes it easier. 54 solid liberal votes would be FAR better than 60 -- including 6 Blue Dogs who will screw everything up!

The key will be holding onto all seats in Blue states (including CO where Bennett is in serious trouble) and letting the Republicans take LA, NE, etc.  


[ Parent ]
Bennet (4.00 / 1)
The key may be defeating the right flirting, undependable Bennet in a primary.  Andrew Romanoff looks like one of our best chances.  He's probably be a better candidate in the general election anyway.  At least he's held elected office and was an effective Speaker of the Colorado House.  Bennet has been in appointed or corporate positions.

[ Parent ]
Here in CO, we are scratching our heads about Romanoff (4.00 / 1)
The opening was there; but, he has run an astoundingly flat and directionless campaign so far.  This was surprising, given his performance as a legislator.

The other thing is that folks who've been around politics in Colorado for a while recognize that Romanoff's history is as a DLC centrist.  I'm not that confident this leopard's changing its spots all of a sudden.  This race ain't Mike Miles v. Ken Salazar.


[ Parent ]
Chris, I respect your analysis on this issue almost above anyone else's, (4.00 / 3)
and I think you've been unfairly attacked many times from people who haven't been doing nearly as much as you to help the debate. But I don't really understand what your endgame is anymore.  You know that Nelson has demanded concessions to make a bad bill even worse.  You know that he (or Lieberman, or some other conservadem) is likely to move the goalposts again in the future.  Why should we have any reason to think that they would budge in a conference committee?

Doesn't Nelson's behavior provide the perfect motivation to push for reconciliation?  If so, why aren't we pulling out all the stops to push in that direction?  The current bill is already arguably not worth passing, and that's before Nelson further waters it down.  Is there some point at which the bill becomes bad enough where you think we should fight to either use reconciliation or to kill it?

I say none of this to challenge your sincerity or even strategy.  You've done far more to push this debate to the left than I or many others could hope to do.  But I guess I just don't fully understand what you're pushing for anymore and how you plan to get there, and I'd appreciate some clarification.

Thanks.


The progressive senators (4.00 / 1)
have not taken the bait.  I never thought any of them were going to filibuster the bill, to do so would be to play right into the GOP's hands, provide cover to the conservadems who really don't want to see any bill at all, and potentially marginalize themselves with the party.

This fact was, I think, knowen by Reid and everyone else from the very beginning.  This is why the bill has moved steadily to the right.  

If this bill fails I think it will because it has become so unpopular that the Stupak amendment gives an excuse for conservadems in the House to vote against the bill.  

My guess is passage is still no more than 50-50.  The bill is just so unpopular I really wonder if there are any concessions that can be made to the Landrieu's of the world that will get their votes.  


Good. Just get this out of the Senate (4.00 / 2)
Big picture here -- this is not final passage of a conference report. It's just passage of a Senate bill. Until that happens we're stuck in a holding pattern controlled by 60 egomaniacs.

The real question is how to proceed after Senate passage of whatever they produce. A simple ping-pong approval of the Senate bill should be institutionally unacceptable to the House. A conference subject to the whims of 60 egos will not be productive. So, how do we get something better through the Senate to the president's desk?

I suggest "ping-pong plus" -- The House Dems agree to pass the Senate bill (insurance reforms) as is only after the Senate produces a second PO bill (competition reform), via reconciliation if need be. The House would then approve both as final passage for the president's signature.

This is the only way I see to significantly improve the Senate bill. Lieberman is unmovable -- the WH holds no cards to change his mind -- so there will never be 60 votes for improvement, which makes a conference a waste of time.

Only when when we're facing final passage of a bill largely like the Senate bill must we confront the question of killing it. Killing it now is premature.

(Note to hippies, bloggers, elected Dems and especially Rep. Weiner -- if you like this idea either keep your mouths shut or say you hate it. Myself? I think this totally sucks...)

Self-refuting Christine O'Donnell is proof monkeys are still evolving into humans


As for Lieberman... (4.00 / 2)
I agree he's probably immovable, but there is 1 card that leadership could play that they've refused to so far, and that's to simply threaten him with his chair.  This is something he values, and something Reid could do (by himself or with pressure from the WH).  I'm not sure what they're afraid of.

[ Parent ]
Don't hold your breath. (0.00 / 0)
Reid should have done that weeks ago. Obviously, he doesn't want to go that far. Well, it's his political funeral in Nevada...

[ Parent ]
Oh, I'm not... (0.00 / 0)
Just saying that it's not like they have NOTHING on Lieberman... they just seem unwilling to use it.

Obviously, Lieberman would probably just say "Ok, do it", leadership would have to follow through, and he still wouldn't be helping us.

With that said, I'd much prefer that, since at least he'd lose his chair and likely leave the caucus.


[ Parent ]
PT Appeals to History (4.00 / 2)
PT Appeals to History
Josh Marshall | December 18, 2009, 12:13PM
From TPM Reader PT ...

In a remarkable bit of good timing, I've been re-reading Shelby Foote's history of the Civil War, in particular his first volume (covering 1861-1862). It provides some much-needed perspective on the current situation with health care reform.Like President Obama, President Lincoln was seen by many of his supporters as something of a disappointment once in office. This was largely due to the number and types of compromises he needed to make, most notably with the institution of slavery. In his first inaugural address, Lincoln came out and said that he was not bound and determined to end slavery, that the President does not in any case have the power to unilaterally change the law of the land, and that his first priority was the preservation of the Union, even if the price of that preservation was to accept the continuation of slavery. During the war, when pressed by a group of ministers about why he had not more forcefully worked to end slavery, he reiterated that his overriding priority was to preserve the Union, and added that there were four slave states which had stayed loyal and which were currently contributing 50,000 soldiers to the war effort; these, he pointed out, were states and soldiers which he could not afford to lose in a dispute over slavery.
When Lincoln finally issed the Emancipation Proclamation, its scope was remarkably circumscribed: it did not call for the emancipation of slaves in loyal states (for this, Lincoln would need the participation of Congress, and in any event, as described above, he did not seek such an act for fear of worsening the Union's position in the war); it did not call for the emancipation of slaves in those areas under military control by the Union; it limited emancipation to those areas which would be brought under military control subsequent to January 1, 1863, which was about 3 months after the Proclamation itself was issued. As one historian noted, this meant the Proclamation carefully excused all of the slaves which the United States actually had any authority over at the time of issuance! As another historian noted, the Proclamation was in essence the offer of a bribe: any state then in rebellion which would lay down its arms and return to the Union would not be compelled to give up its slaves; any state conquered by force of arms after January 1, 1863 would be so compelled.

Needless to say, the Proclamation was seen by anti-slavery partisans of the time as wholly unacceptable, a compromise too far, and yet more evidence of the unfitness of their elected standard-bearer in the White House. And yet, as Foote points out, Lincoln is today hailed as the preserver of the Union, which he was, but as The Great Emancipator, which he was not. This is because the Proclamation, while useless in a practical sense at the moment of issuance, was the crucial starting point for the abolition of slavery, a project which was completed just a few years later.

I trust that the parallels with our own current situation are apparent (though I think that the Senate HCR bill is far more immediately useful now then the Emancipation Proclamation was then). I would also note that after winning election both Lincoln and Davis were widely condemned by their supporters as weak, stupid, cowardly, vain, and tyrannical by their supporters, who wondered aloud why they had ever voted for those people and what was to become of a nation led by such a man. Apparently intense dissatisfaction with elected officials you have heretofore supported is an American tradition.



Thanks for that (4.00 / 1)
Nice piece of perspective.  Doesn't ease my mind that we are increasingly drawing parallels to the bloodiest war in American history, but when the shoe fits, it fits (no matter how grubby the appearance.)

The storm clouds are brewing, I fear the ability of peaceful legislation is on the wane.  If there is no relief soon, people's minds will start turning to the darker paths that offer what little hope they think remains.  What have they left to lose but a Congress that doesn't listen, an army gone mad with hubris, and a President who's soaring rhetoric seems to not able to convince himself anymore.  

Parallels to the Civil War indeed.


[ Parent ]
Thanks, Rhoda (4.00 / 1)
Just this morning I was reflecting on these very same parallels.

And there's even worse:

Lincoln's first moves as President-elect were aimed at compensated emancipation (bribing the slaveholders if you will) combined with plans to send the freedmen "back" to Africa.  He couldn't get takers on either side: slaveholders or Black Americans.  Worse, these thoughts persisted with Lincoln through the first two years of the war, but ultimately, he knew what he was doing.

Is Barack Obama today's Lincoln?  Little suggests that he is.  Surely he's shown thus far little or none of the spine that Lincoln DID possess.  Lincoln did not shrink from Civil War whatever vacillations he did commit.  

But we still don't know how this will turn out.  At some point, to have a chance of being anything other than a complete failure, he's going to have to turn on his Versailles supporters and make them back up.

Will he ultimately do that, if only in self-preservation?  We shall see.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Comparisons to LBJ (0.00 / 0)
Thank you, too.

We also can't omit that when LBJ passed Medicare and Medicaid, he had 68 Dem. senators in congress; we have 58-1/2 at best.

The best way for the right to defeat us is to divide us, and they know it. It's a strategy right out of a Rove playbook, and it scares me.

Fix the bill without condemning ourselves to suicide. We need more Dem senators, not party abandonment.


[ Parent ]
But you're missing the big picture -- (4.00 / 4)
Lincoln chose to fight.

He could've simply watched the Confederates fire on Fort Sumter, said, "my bad," and let America break apart but he chose not to. He chose to fight a bloody, unpopular war to preserve the Union and everything else followed from that.

Have you seen any sign that Obama has even one drop of that kind of character?

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
How Does One Fight? (0.00 / 0)
Just because BO doesn't pee on somebody's leg the way LBJ did doesn't mean he's not fighting.

We see what we see. I see the biggest fight of a lifetime going on in the senate right now and Brown, Rockefeller, Wyden, Sanders, Durbin, Whitehouse, et al. are winning it. I don't for one second believe that BO is not aggresively involved. He is a man. We are the ones who made him into a messiah.

I know this is open to other interpretations, but the battle is far from over.

We need more democratic senators, not nihilism which will inevitably defeat us.


[ Parent ]
I really disagree with your take. (4.00 / 5)
In my opinion, PT's analogy is facile and flawed, but it is a longer discussion than I care for right now. I just want to reply to you that yes Obama knows how to fight and he is quite capable of strong-arming and pissing on someone's leg. The issue is whose leg and for what end. On health care it has consistently been to weaken the bill and to enforce support from disappointed and rebellious progressives.  

[ Parent ]
Left vs. Left (0.00 / 0)

" ... with a rejuvenated and increasingly radical Right's hounds baying and sniffing at the doors of the Capitol, we don't have the time or energy to spare in dialogues of the deaf wherein we call each other names while getting ready for the elections of 2010 and 2012. "  -- Ed Kilgore


[ Parent ]
The elections in 2009 and 2010 (0.00 / 0)
are not for me the be-all and the end-all. Nor the elections in 2012. If YOU had raised outrage earlier at Obama's right wing choices of Geithner, Summers, Gates, and Emanuel for starters, instead of going along, supporting every betrayal and sell-out that he has produced (it's a long list), he and they might have realized early the political cost of following a Bush-lite direction. But instead the argument then was to give him time, the choices themselves are not the crucial point, Obama himself will make decisions. Well those decisions are decisions I oppose. If you oppose those decisions, then oppose them. and make sure everyone hears you are not happy. Otherwise I guarantee there is more like this coming from Obama. Despite what Ed Kilgore writes, I believe the greatest threat to social security and medicare will come from Obama,  and this commission he is agreeing to.  not the right, not the radical right. As Gary Wills pointed out in his fine column with the radical right at least the enemy is in front of us.
Alternatively, you might campaign for the Dems and Obama among the beneficiaries of his policies (pretty much the same groups that supported Bush), the wealthy and the corporations and the military. Maybe you can make up for his lost support with the left, and with minorities, and people in need, and the struggling middle class...what's left of it.  I am done with Obama and the Dems for the foreseeable future.
This was a high-water mark, a real chance to change the direction of this country for my children and future generations. and he and his supporters have pissed this away and didn't even try. Disappointment with Obama? No, real anger.

[ Parent ]
Your Reply (0.00 / 0)

Thanks for your thoughtful replies. I especially agree with and understand that with the radical right, "at least the enemy is in front of us."

Otherwise, I will keep your comments in heart and mind and try to understand the merits and flaws of that point of view.


[ Parent ]
You are very kind (0.00 / 0)
and I hope I did not reply too harshly. I think the present is a process we have to go through that will if we are lucky lead to some positive changes. I know that you want that and I do too.

[ Parent ]
I should add (0.00 / 0)
I have read Kilgore often in the last eight years. I find him in general thoughtful. He is  better than almost anyone else who comes out of the DLC that I know of, but his pedigree in the DLC often shows and it shows in the snippet you quote. The shorter version which I have heard bgefore : is vote Dem and support Obama dreck because otherwise you get Cheney. That measure is entirely false. It is Obama and his horrid policies who will get us Cheney; ohh they will accuse the left, it is so convenient. But it is the Obama policies and his enabling supporters who will do the heavy lifting.  

[ Parent ]
If you think what Obama is doing right now (4.00 / 4)
is "fighting" (and implicitly, for us) then I have no idea how to answer your question. Except to say that's not it.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Well, you sure stuck it to... (3.00 / 8)
The Dirty Fucking Hippies like me!  Woo hooo!

Based on your open contempt for the "left" why don't you change the name of this site to Open Surrender?

I can't wait for you to explain to me why I should stop bitching about my silly reproductive rights when the Stupack language is included in the final bill.


Hey, the WH says they want to get the bill closer to the House's... (4.00 / 1)
I just read it.. they said it, it must be true! They're going to work to get it "closer" to the House Bill.. perhaps they'll just tack on Stupak and declare Mission Accomplished!

why the troll-rate on RoseRoby? (0.00 / 0)


Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

[ Parent ]
Because he's basically attacking Chris... (0.00 / 0)
For no reason.  Chris has probably done more positive for HCR than, well, certainly RoseRuby, and probably just about anyone currently in Congress or the Executive branch.  It's ridiculous to attack him for "giving up" or "sticking it to" DFHs... I can't believe anyone is uprating it to be honest.

[ Parent ]
Imho the tone of his story was totally unnecessarily mocking... (4.00 / 2)
..those who hoped and stomped for progressive Senators amking a stand to enforce a better bill. If he's mean, he has to accept mean rsponses. And, btw, there is no direct personal assault on him in that comment. Upon close reading you'll see tha his actions are attacked, not he as a person.

I won't criticize anyone who TRs that, but imho it's still a tolerable opinion.  


[ Parent ]
I didn't see it that way... (0.00 / 0)
I saw it as more of a statement of facts, really.

I don't troll-rate someone for simply disagreeing, btw.  I actually use it very little.  I don't think the comment really added anything substantive to the conversation and was simply a lash-out at, frankly, the wrong person.

If she disagrees with Chris' assessment, great... she doesn't need to basically call him a sell-out or insulting the entirety of the site when he's not the problem.


[ Parent ]
Totally ok, leshrac. It's a close call. (0.00 / 0)
But now, excuse me pls. I'm depressed.

[ Parent ]
If you want to troll rate me go ahead (4.00 / 3)
but try to get my gender and name right, okay?

This isn't personal.  This is a real issue, that impacts real people.  This bill takes a terrible situation and makes it even worse.  It will force people to buy insurance that they can't afford.  It does nothing to control the profit margins these insurance companies reap off of our sick and dying bodies.  It threatens to take aim at the reproductive destiny of millions of American women, including me.

So scratch what I said earlier - IT IS PERSONAL!  So when you tell me to swallow a total capitulation to corporate interests over human beings, I take it personal.  When you tell me to accept the surrender to anti-abortion slut-shaming fear mongers, I take it personal.  I'd be a fool not to.

Now Bowers and you are entitled to your opinions, but don't put me in the camp of Nelson and Lieberman and Stupak.  The sell-out center can always pull this argument, but then that is letting the right frame the discussion.



[ Parent ]
You are really reading a lot into my few words... (0.00 / 0)
First, I apologize for getting your gender wrong, and the typo in your name.  I don't know what got into me... I really should've checked out your name in the well-known Internet username index to figure out whether "RoseRoby" was a male or female name, or realized that your username, which starts with a potentially non-proper noun, could've actually been your name... What could I possibly have been thinking.

Secondly, Chris is basically stating the facts of the situation, not advocating that Democrats "surrender".  I think your post assaulting him for "surrendering" is ridiculous, considering that there's probably very little chance that we would've even been talking about a PO for the last few months without him (and there's probably no chance the House bill would've included it if not for his work on the Progressive Block).

So yeah, I see your comment as basically lashing out at the wrong person here.  Chris is not the enemy.


[ Parent ]
A good tip off on my gender (0.00 / 0)
is not my name, but when has a man ever used the words "my reproductive rights" in a sentence?

And as for reading too much into a few words, I can't find the part of my post where I called Chris Bowers the "enemy" of me or anyone else.

Do I think he's suggesting surrender on the part of the left on this bill?  Well, yeah, because he's scared to death of the left being blamed for taking it down.  And that's where we part company because I believe the left will be CELEBRATED for taking this crappy bill down.  

And we can start over, and try again.  So many lives depend on it, man.


[ Parent ]
Sanders now published his Xmas wishlist. Sen. Reid, pls take notice! (0.00 / 0)
"Sanders, a Remaining Holdout, Working on Health Clinic Deal"
http://spectator.org/blog/2009...

Now, that's convenient, a Senator who says publicly with what he can be bribed with! Yeah, finally some transparency in Senate.


Is "bribe" really the correct word here? (0.00 / 0)
Sanders has made an attempt at winning an improvement.  If you are going to use such inflammatory words as "bribe", please provide a scintilla of evidence that he is personally benefiting from this action.  Sanders has been as much of a stalwart as we've had in the Senate.  

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

[ Parent ]
I take artistic license (0.00 / 0)
He obviously is willing to withdraw opposition to the bill in exchange for an improvement. While this, of course, doesn't fit the legal definition of being bribed, imho in casual language this can be said in that way.

[ Parent ]
then the House is the only hope (4.00 / 1)
and I don't know how big a hope it is.

i don't see how (0.00 / 0)
the conference report is subject to a filibuster. if you couldn't get 60 votes for something in the original bill, how are you going to get 60 votes for it in the conference version?

there may be a few marginal improvements, but it's not like the Senate hasn't had months to work on this, with the House bill right there in front of them to work from. i think what we'll see is some "improvements" that the Senators have already agreed to in advance, as a little bone they can toss to the House to make them feel like part of the government.

not everything worth doing is profitable. not everything profitable is worth doing.


[ Parent ]
Rahm Emanuel: Don't Worry About the Left (0.00 / 0)
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/...

"The comments may not endear the powerful White House chief of staff to liberal activists, furious that Senate Democratic leaders, at Emanuel's urging, cut a deal with Sen. Joe Lieberman to drop a federally run insurance policy option, then eliminate a Medicare buy-in proposal.

"I don't think the White House recognizes how much trouble they're in," said one former Democratic official this morning. "I think they're miscalaculating what's happening with progressives and the left. They feel like they're being taken for granted."

But Emanuel pointed to a New York Times column by economist Paul Krugman and another coming from National Journal writer Ronald Brownstein pressing for passage of the Senate health bill. "What you're seeing is the progressive backlash against the progressive backlash," he said."


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