The big stupid of health care reform

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Dec 20, 2009 at 08:30


Yesterday, David argued against "The Three Artificially Manufactured Assumptions Driving the Insurance/Drug Industry's Health Bill".  As he explained--my interpretation here, folks--none of these could withstand the least bit of serious scrutiny.  Heck, I don't need to quote a single one of his points in full:

ASSUMPTION - This Is the "Last Chance" to Pass Health Care for a Generation: This.... makes zero empirical sense. Last I checked, Democrats will still control Congress and the White House for all of 2010. These are the Democrats making this "last chance" argument - and they are the same Democrats who would get to decide if that's actually true.

ASSUMPTION - Dems Couldn't/Wouldn't Come Back to Health Care Again Soon If This Bill Fails: This is related to the first assumption. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't - but there's the assumption that they would be strongly inclined not to because of the politics of it. I don't get this at all. Seems to me Democrats and the White House are so completely vested in getting something - anything! - done that they'd have to come back to it, and quickly.

ASSUMPTION - We Need 60 Votes to Pass Anything: Again, just not true, even though it's been said over and over and over again. Sure, there are problems with reconciliation - but it's a fact that Democrats could at least attempt to pass a public option or Medicare buy-in via reconciliation.

You remember the Mad Magazine Natinal Lampoon cover, 'Buy this magazine, or we'll shoot this dog'?  Well the above arguments basically amount to 'Buy this magazine, or I'll shoot my dog!'

In response, Jeff Blum, founder and co-chair of the coalition  Health Care for American Now (HCAN) wrote a response that inadvertantly revealded a much more fundamental problem:

David, you are brilliant and a great writer, but the health care fight isn't just a matter of a few people deciding to do it or not.  It's the culmination of movement work, local/state/federal, going back decades.  Of fighting and losing in 1993-4, regrouping and rebuilding.  Of putting together a coalition, HCAN, that is historic and unusually unified on our side (full disclosure: I'm a founder and co-chair).  Of having a President and a strong Democratic (no, not progressive, Lord knows we've learned that well enough) Congressional majority who campaigned to win health care.

We just aren't going to get this opportunity again in a long time.  How long?  You don't know and I don't know, but I don't want to find out.  I don't want to fight this fight when health care is over 20% of the GDP, when 60 million people are uninsured, when even fewer doctors practice primary care, when private corporations have even further dismantled one of the best public goods our government offers.

What Jeff inadevertantly revealed was a fundamental orientation predestined to produce sub-par, if not totally inadequate results.  I'm not blaming him personally for this--the inter-related problems here are much bigger than any one person, organization or even coalition.  Let me quickly explain the three problems:

Paul Rosenberg :: The big stupid of health care reform
    (1) In contrast to the more-than-decade-long process of "fighting and losing...regrouping and rebuilding...[and] putting together a coalition" that Jeff mentions, the right shows us to still be in the horse-and-buggy era. Unlike us, the right builds long-term institutional infrastructure. With that infrastructure in place, it's a relatively easy task to pull together a coalition to do whatever it is you want to do. You are not assured of success, of course. But you don't have to reinvent the wheel every time you need to go into battle. And as a result you can afford to go all out, and risk losing everything, because the cost of doing it all over again is not prohibitive. In fact, if you do it right, you can actually gain more from the repeat effort than it costs you. Compared to that, our organizing methodology is doomed to failure. The cost of trying again as Jeff describes it is prohibitively high. And since everyone knows this in advance, everyone knows that compromise is hardwired into the very heart of the effort, which in turn means that the entire fight is conducted with at least one hand tied behind our back.

    (2) Jeff representatively assumes that if we don't succeed things will just continue to get much worse, but that that won't do anything to increase political pressure to help our side. This indicates an underlying disconnect, in which all the agency comes from top down, from the organizers who put the coalition together, and others like them, rather than from the people themselves. This sort of top-down elitism, and lack of faith in the people themselves is also fundamentally self-defeating. The idea that we are going to do something to save you is precisely the thing that conservative narratives are primed to attack--and for good reason. People cannot and should not reasonably trust institutional solutions that they themselves do not have a significant role in shaping.

    (3) Yet, paradoxically, Jeff himself has no sense of his own agency. If we fail now, it's over. Nothing more we can do. And he is not alone in this. This is virtually universal mindset of those who have had "a seat at the table", or been closely aligned with them.

Again, this is not a criticism of Jeff personally.  It's not even a criticism of like-minded health-care advocates.  The same failings can be found on other issues as well.  This is a failing of progressives in general, and unless it is addressed at a movement-wide level, it his highly unlikely that anything significant can be done to change things, and rid ourselves of the fundmantal big stupid that otherwise quite intelligent people continue to thoughtless embrace.


Tags: , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
Damn, You're Right (0.00 / 0)
In fact, I can now see the cover rather clearly in my mind.

I wrote this last night, dog tired, in a rush, fully intending to double check that once I was done, and I just plumb forgot.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
"a fundamental orientation predestined to produce sub-par ... results" (4.00 / 3)
Indeed, indeed! I guess it's probably a widespread desease among people working in any system, that they become so accustomed to the limitations and shortcomings of the process that they start to simply accept them as a given after some time. Not realizing that they act like hamsters in a spinning wheel, running with all their might (as Jeff said "fighting like hell"), without any chance to get ahead in the "long run". Brave, but not productive.

Without serious attempts to change the system instead, no real change can ever be achieved that way. The vicious circle has to be broken at some point to overcome the limitations and to really allow progress. This should never be forgotten. And the example of the healthcare bill shows that it is indeed indispensable to refuse to work within the boundaries of the system. There is no reward to be found in the hamster wheel!  


Why didn't (4.00 / 1)
the Clinton administration revisit health care after the 1994 failure?  I think the fear that we wouldn't come back to it immediately is rational.  After all, the health care cost problems didn't get discovered all of a sudden shortly after Obama's election day.  Organizations were trying to talk about it for years and were politically marginalized - you never heard a peep about it otherwise.

I think I can see the narrative - that Obama etc are simply expedient and had no interest in reforming health care and only had to because they had to campaign on it, and only campaigned on it because they had to, because everyone else was, which was because of the all-powerful grassroots organizations... whatever.  I'm not a top-down-elitist thinker, but I'm not a complete cynic about Obama's administration, either.  This is tiresome.

My own thoughts about the bill are simply that we should pass it because it's better than the status quo, and I don't think it will reduce the drive to improve it even more in the future, despite the fears of others, which seem rather similar to the fears you and David are decrying "some people" for.

Finally, I think it's worth pointing out that the netroots really do seem to have a propensity to tear themselves down.  I've seen so many predictions of "we'll lose our majority if we pass this bill" that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy: "I'm done with this party, I'm voting third party next election".  Talk about holding yourself hostage.


"Why didn't the Clinton administration revisit health care? (4.00 / 3)
Hmm, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they lose the necessary majority to do so?

And pls see this the other way round, too: IF Clinton had passed healthcare reform in 1994, would Dems now try to improve this? And wouldn't that have resulted in taking most of the pressure out of the issue? Imho, if Dems pass this horrible perversity of a reform now, it actually becomes less likely that they will revisit this issue soon. If the bill fails, the pressure will still remain, and actually increase (since the rising costs make it inevitable to do something for more affordable insurance).

Simply putting the failed system on an infusion with dozens of billions of tax dollars evry single year will reduce the pressure, but not achieve anything in correcting the cause of the desease. It's really only a short term "solution" to a long term problem. Imho that's irresponsible.


[ Parent ]
Clinton healthcare didn't fail until the late summer (0.00 / 0)
There really wasn't time to revisit. We have a whole year. They were also much further from passage in terms of votes.

[ Parent ]
It's not the netroots that's defeatest (4.00 / 2)
It's the mindset of democratic establishment that sees power and holding on to it as the be and end all. the netroots is not defeatist as much as it is defeated by the corporate interests that have a lock hold on the democratic party, as well as now, on Obama. The corporate interests are embodied in the persons of rahm emanuel, geithner, gates et al. And these interests see as their goal the privatization of government with the citizens can be delivered unto it. the rest is fluff.

There is hardly a daylight difference between democrats' allegiance to thir lobby handlers and the republicans, in terms of outcomes. The tactics are the same and the overall outcome will only differ in the margins.

You refuse to see that this bill, with its egregious mandates, is a disaster - there's nothing that's good enough in the bill to justify delivering reluctant citizens - against their will - unto the grabby greedy hands of an industry, waiting to devour them whole. Which is why many if not most of the progressive wing should campaign against it with all they got, and i applaud moveon.org's efforts in that direction.

truth is, your democratic party is as corrupt as beholden to special interests as the republicans. They just talk nicer and give better speeches. In other words, they are better at pretending.

It is my fervent hope that we'll follow paul's and others' admonitions and come up with our own tea party. If we have to, we should explore making alliances with the libertarian left - as someone suggested here last week. Unless we play hardball, no one will ever take the left seriously.

It's time to wake up and stop stop listening and apologizing for the rahm emanuels of this world - and those who appoint them. And come to think of is - it's probably not in our best interest to have that 60-vote majority. Here's a thought: had we not had that - wouldn't the democrats plan for a nuclear option all along? perhaps it would be better to deal with more snowe's than with nelson's. at least it'd be crystal clear who's on what side.


[ Parent ]
I don't necessarily disagree (0.00 / 0)
but I do take issue with explanations that put the whole blame on something in the mindset of the organizers.  Didn't you, yourself, Paul, write something in the last month ago, in praise of a book by Barbara Ehrenreich in which she devastatingly critiqued the whole virtual industry built on such mind-over-matter thinking?

So am I advocating pessimism?

No.

But what are our strategies and tactics now compared to what they were at times of greater movement success?

Where is the mass movement?  Isn't it especially galling to you that the only street demonstrations seen in this fight were the Tea-Partiers?  Why is this?  I blame it on the Netroots to some extent.  Stung by the ease with which the Bush Administration and Versailles were able to ignore massive street demonstrations in the runup to the Iraq War, a near-consensus developed that street mobilizations were relics of the sixties,  a waste of time better spent on electing opponents of Bush, i.e. Democrats.  But now, with a Democratic Administration that might have been susceptible to such pressure, we have none.  Of course this is partially due to rampant Obama-as-savior worship as well, but whatever the cause, it does need to change.  Lincoln, FDR, LBJ were all confronted with mass pressure that had to be appeased.  If we don't learn to develop it we will not succeed as movements in those days succeeded.

But since we DON'T now have such movements, to some extent, these inside/outside "movement job organizations" like Jeff's have to fill both roles.  And it's impossible.  I refuse to criticize them for trying to some extent to fill a vacuum that needs to be filled.  And it may well be that passing this crappy bill (while making sure that the Administration NEVER has a clear field to strut about it) provides enough juice to get us all to the next level, better than defeating it will.  If there were mass street-movements now demanding the defeat of this bill, my opinion would be different.  But there are none, and we have to face that fact.

While the fight for Health Care appears to be "the war" it's really only one important battlefield in a larger war.  That war will continue.  Financial Regulation and Wall St. vs Main St. will continue to be issues and since these are "negative" fights that do not aim to achieve anything immediately tangible, unlike Health Care Reform, they offer better opportunities for the kind of full-throated opposition to the current order that you and I want.  There is no half-a-loaf there to tempt our side.

Boldness, cojones, if you will, are important, but they're not all-important.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


Clarification (4.00 / 2)
First:

I do take issue with explanations that put the whole blame on something in the mindset of the organizers.  Didn't you, yourself, Paul, write something in the last month ago, in praise of a book by Barbara Ehrenreich in which she devastatingly critiqued the whole virtual industry built on such mind-over-matter thinking?

Sure, I was criticizing a mindset.  But that hardly means I think it's only in people's minds.  That mindset exists in a social, political and institutional framework, which one could certainly write a whole book about.  This was just a brief blog post focusing on a few key thoughts.

Second:

Where is the mass movement?  Isn't it especially galling to you that the only street demonstrations seen in this fight were the Tea-Partiers?  Why is this?  I blame it on the Netroots to some extent.  Stung by the ease with which the Bush Administration and Versailles were able to ignore massive street demonstrations in the runup to the Iraq War, a near-consensus developed that street mobilizations were relics of the sixties,  a waste of time better spent on electing opponents of Bush, i.e. Democrats.

All that is true.  But my criticism is bigger than that:

Unlike us, the right builds long-term institutional infrastructure. With that infrastructure in place, it's a relatively easy task to pull together a coalition to do whatever it is you want to do.

THere is potentially a mass movement for universal health care, there's certainly enough people who favor it and care about it enough to constitute a mass movement, but the poieces of that potential movement have never been effectively brought together for that purpose. And this in itself is indicative of the point I was making.

Third:

But since we DON'T now have such movements, to some extent, these inside/outside "movement job organizations" like Jeff's have to fill both roles.  And it's impossible.  I refuse to criticize them for trying to some extent to fill a vacuum that needs to be filled.

And I made quite clear that I was not criticizing Jeff personally.  But good intentions are not good enough.  We're still using a horse-and-buggy approach, and it's just plain stupid to do so.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Something I wrote a couple days ago (0.00 / 0)
Wasn't written for this, but touches on these issues a bit:

http://www.docudharma.com/diar...

Excellent piece by you, by the way.  This debacle is generating some new thinking.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
I know you weren't criticizing Jeff personally (0.00 / 0)
and I accept your clarification.

Others ARE criticizing such organizations in a way that goes too far, IMHO.  I am thinking particularly of Jane Hamsher's term for such orgs: "the veal pen".  There is certainly merit behind these criticisms but I think it goes a bit too far, for all the value I DO place on Jane's "whipping" efforts which kept the Public Option alive for months after I myself thought it was dead.  The tactics and slogans that were appropriate in that phase of the fight may be less so in this phase.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
"Jane's "whipping" efforts which kept the Public Option alive" (0.00 / 0)
Yeah, that was a great show of what blogs can do! Inspiring. But now, they seem to have no idea left what can be done to fight on. No leadership anymore on their FDL action pages. That's dpepressing for the readers. Reminds me of those lines in that ole Simon and Garfunkel song: "Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio? A nation turns it's lonely eyes to you"

[ Parent ]
It's never easy to know when to switch gears. (0.00 / 0)
FDL is suffering from that now.  While I don't agree with a lot of what's being said there now, which I view as too negative and not ultimately helpful, they did play an important role and I look forward to them doing so again.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

[ Parent ]
Maybe FDL should switch gears (4.00 / 1)
And start "whipping" on which Senators are open to using reconciliation.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
Kill The Bill (0.00 / 0)
Jane has a petition out today to kill the Senate bill.  I signed it and passed it along.

[ Parent ]
In addition to this on myths... (0.00 / 0)
is this on myths...

http://fdlaction.firedoglake.c...

Both are a must read, imho.


top down (4.00 / 1)
This article hints at the anger, frustration and violent potential that has been created by 40 years of refusal by both parties to represent the majority.

The situation can be described by the sheer volume of issues the public wants that politicians continue to ignore. In healthcare, international trade, tax fairness, climate change, regulation of corporations and finance, lobbying, food and water safety, worker protection and rights, law enforcement on the privilaged class, verifiable elections, and many other areas, the popular will is flouted.

These issues have been poled and the popular wishes are known, but money trumps everything in our failed political system. So our politicians go on representing the top few percent and disregard the vast majority.

The time is ripe for a peoples party (the definition of populism) to spring up and bring rapid change. If fact I believe the die is cast and nothing can stop the comming tribulation.

The only question in my mind is; which way will the mob do? Right now the fascists have the monetary, media and the think tank advantage (top down) so they are much better prepared to catch the leading edge and direct us into second class subject status. Which raises the stakes in this conflict to the highest level. Really, freedom or slavery, life or death, and to a large extent worldwide.

The model available to us is the union and ACORN method of organizing...bottom up. It requires a mass undertaking of one on one education of the deluded, but can be very effective if widely pursued. Ignorance can be cured by education!



Government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob..... FDR


You have hit the nail on the head... (0.00 / 0)
...it is time to start a new party.  The foundation of the Democratic Party at this time is pure hypocrisy, the party fabricates the idea that it for the common people, when in essence it is an extension of the corporate world whose interests run contrary to the interests of common people.  There has been exceptions to this in the past with FDR's New Deal and LBJ's Great Society.  And today there are some very good Democrats like Sherrod Brown and Dennis Kucinich, the problem is they are always going to be on the periphery with no power within the party.  I think we need to organize around the Bernie Sanders model, and make that model into an organized party.  I see the Democratic Party now as a historical failure, and the sooner we get rid of it, the better.

Regards,

Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me-and I welcome their hatred. - FDR


[ Parent ]
Another angle: The Time Is NOW in Terms of Power Politics for The Left (4.00 / 8)
What are the stakes for the people who are supposed to benefit from HCR?  Neither House/Senate compromise bills are going to get fairly priced pro-active comprehensive HC into any consumer's hands any time soon. That is why this seems like a uniquely opportune moment for the left Left to flex its muscles: to behave like Lieberman/Nelson/Snowe and bring the process to a halt (because we can) in order to be heard and to wield power.

What is there to lose?

The HC issue is not going to go away because the budgetary/financial reckoning is inevitable.  
In terms of the political calendar, this just seems like a perfect storm of opportunity. Earlier in the HC debate would have allowed the opposition to rally and discredit the Left in time to alter the fight in the Senate.  There is still time to get something done in 2010, ahead of the mid-terms.  The benefits down the road of this immediate exercise of power would be enormous (just ask Joe Lieberman!), demonstrating that the voice of the nation's majority (as represented by progressive liberals in government) can no longer be squelched, and that that voice must be considered in all other major policy areas too.
When analyzing the risks/benefits of decisive action this time, instead of conceding everything in advance, it's hard to see why we shouldn't go down this road.


You Got It! (4.00 / 2)
And they're scared to death that we might look down and notice we're holding all those cards.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
What would power politics consist of? (4.00 / 1)
What sends me up the wall is all this militant rhetoric that has no teeth, that are basically calls to action for someone else.

These are things the relative more progressive senators and representatives COULD do.  Problem is, they aren't going to do them.  Ford Motor once decided to keep defective tires on its Ford Explorer that killed and injured hundreds, because the resulting lawsuits were cheaper than recalling the tires.

Likewise, our congressional and White House Democratics have already factored in all our squawking as part of this year's political budget.  They plan to ride it out, and the acceptable decibel-level is written in.

Some of our progressive leaders are joining in on the squawking.  Some.  But like Jay Gould, half of them have been hired to shout down the other half.  And the good half, all they can do is squawk.  Their protests have no teeth.

There has to be a [if you do this], then we will [inflict the following injuries].  But I've yet to hear that.  Best we hear are warnings that VOTERS next year will punish them.  But Voters are going to do this DESPITE our progressive leaders urging them once more unto the breach next year, as they always do.

The Full Court Press threatens real injury by going big in the Democratic primaries in 2012.  But I have to say that we need some real threats for 2010 as well.

A smaller version of the Press in 2010?  Some have argued for it, but it's going to take people other than me to make that happen.

Bottom line, though, is that even if our threats have been paper, punishment should be dealt out somehow.  It makes our threats regarding the inevitable gutting of any serious jobs bill a bit more credible.

Did I say "inevitable"?  I wouldn't say it if I saw any thinking around healthcare that would assure any different outcome.  Definition of insanity and all that.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
The Whip (0.00 / 0)
We have to play all our options now. I do regret that my post has driven you up the wall, however there has been no compelling case made that it's a given that threatening consequences in 2012/10 is the only thing that will engender responsiveness. We might very well have the leverage we need now with legislators. We have to try.
This could play out a few ways.
1) One senator responding to an intense rapid campaign of persuasion like Jane's Whip Count.
2) PCC members, some of whom will likely end up in  conference committee responding to a an intense rapid campaign of persuasion like Jane's Whip Count.
3) Or some other political tactic.
Let's get back in this fight. The opposition wants a vote by Christmas. Disrupting that timeline will send BHO, the Dems, and the GOP a message they very much need to hear.
We just need to quickly find a left-Left liberal that would like to take on a Lieberman/Nelson/Snowe-like obstructionist mantle. It shouldn't be hard to sell that. Point out how very nicely it has worked out for Lieberman, Nelson, and Snowe. Target the usual suspects: someone like Dodd, Feingold, Sanders, Brown, Boxer,... Politicians are seduced by the prospect of power, to belabor an obvious point. Let's exploit that and invite some of them to go after some more.
I don't think any of this is at odds with FCP.

[ Parent ]
All those points you list might work (0.00 / 0)
But how do they get from your comment to actual action?  That's my gripe.  Somebody should do this, and somebody should do that.  But somebody isn't!

Where are you going to find this somebody.  The one senator, the PCC members responding to WHAT campaign, what specific campaign, led by who, not the diffuse chorus of outrage that they have already filtered out?

We have to organize specific damage.  I'm trying to develop a SPECIFIC plan.  Do me better, please, I'm keenly aware of my own weakness.

Create a Progressive Committee to Improve the Healthcare Bill.  You be the leader.  Or you find the leader.  Or you set up a search committee to find that leader.  And you lead that committee.  You find someone to lead that committee.  You set up an address where someone can go to find out:  Here is exactly what YOU can do to support this effort.  Concrete.  Specific.  Tactical.

Just adding more voices to general calls to action like yours -- and I agree that the actions you enumerate are good ones -- just adds to the noise.

Sorry if I seem angry.  But your post was GOOD enough to pique my interest.

By the way, any of your suggestions, do you think they'll get rid of mandate that will force me to buy insurance I can't afford?  If not, in my opinion, the bill still needs to die.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
What we have (4.00 / 1)
We have more tools at our disposal right now then Jefferson had when he started the first political party in the world, the Democratic party.  Jefferson had a letter writing network.  We have blogs and the internet.  Jefferson had some friendly newspapers.  We have columnists (Sirota) published in many papers and TV appearances.

What we don't have is his position.  Jefferson of course was a former Governor of Virginia (the most populous state in the 1790s), Secretary of State under Washington and Vice President under Adams.

The message is similar.  Get organized.  Get local.  Use local power to embarrass national opponents.  Determine what you need to get power and do it (within legal boundaries).


[ Parent ]
Totally agree. (4.00 / 2)
Sadly, the National Lampoon cover analogy is perfect.

There is a solution for all (0.00 / 0)
Get enough progressive moxie together to hold the bills hostage until the mandate (and hopefully abortion language) is removed, then pass what is left.  The Democrats can claim victory, it isn't a flat handout to insurance, it hands progressives a huge policy victory, and it gives us a chip to negotiate with in this nebulous "we'll fix it later" phase of HCR.  

As per your arguments, I don't see why this isn't feasible if we want it to be.


I'd rather beef up the medical loss provision (0.00 / 0)
The House 85% medical loss provision (that health insurance companies must "lose" 85% of premiums paying medical expenses) would probably help more than the public option would have.

Mandates are necessary for community rating, which is a huge efficiency gain since it is no longer necessary to get medical histories of patients to insure them nor to determine individual pricing. That's a big efficiency gain from reduced paperwork as well as a great relief for insurees, and is the source of most of the efficiency gains in the current bill.  


[ Parent ]
The "medical loss provision" is simply a patch to the system. (0.00 / 0)
The public option would be systemic change, and thus much harder to circumvent. And that's why I think the p.o. is strongly preferrable to any provisions trying to correct the failed system.

[ Parent ]
Both public options and profit regulation (0.00 / 0)
are successfully used in other countries to control costs. It's just as fundamental a change, and, politically, is more compatible with existing American practice - we have lots of profit-regulated utilities. I actually prefer medical loss provisions to profit limits because American managers are so shameless about exploiting their corporations for personal benefit. If we put profit limits on the companies their managers would just divert the monies to bonuses for top management. There's a lot of that already - the insurance companies are not particularly profitable in spite of the vast sums they skim off from premium payments.

[ Parent ]
The US Isn't Other Countries (4.00 / 5)
Our megacorps are totally rapacious, sociopathic, even.  What works in other countries has repeatedly failed here.

See, for example, the financial crisis that ate the middle class.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
"Our megacorps are totally rapacious, sociopathic, even." (4.00 / 1)
Well, they are the same in other nations, too, at least in their substance. But those other nations are much better at reigning them in with reegulations, and the public doesn't give the corps nearly as much leeway, but expects them to act ethically. The probelm with thee US is, imho, that regulation never gained much traction, probably because of a much stronger emphasis on economic freedom. And the US public never really embraced the idea that corporations have to get publicx approval of their actions, and can be held responsible for unethical behaviour. Well, at least that's what I think is behind the differences. Ymmv...

[ Parent ]
Not Quite (4.00 / 3)
There are vastly different norms in different countries.  One indication of this is the differences in ratios between CEO pay and that of front-line workers.  A more comprehensive picture can be gained from comparing regulatory practices.

In The Trouble with Government, former Harvard President Derek Bok describes this quite lucidly: European companies (he specifically cited Germany, IIRC) tend to be quite collaborative--they're quite competitive, but play by the rule, and work well together in setting rules to produce sensible outcomes.  Hence, government regulation is routinely done in collaboration with the relevant business group or trade counsel, which means there's very strong buy-in, and much better compliance.

The US is nothing like that.  Cutthroat competition runs rampant, business break informal agreements all the time, and the involvement of business in rule-setting is largely meant to prevent anything meaningful.  A sociopath's paradise.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Yeah, sure, but where do the differences come from? (0.00 / 0)
Imho, as I wrote, from a different stance the public takes towards the economy. This has to be based on culture, and maybe is a remainder of the "pioneer" spirit of the US, I dunno...

[ Parent ]
Hmm, thinking more about this... (0.00 / 0)
...is increasing my conviction that this really is the outcome of decades, or more probably centuries of everyday experience leaving an impact on the collective mind. In Europe, business has always existed at the mercy of the government, and regulation was applied primarily for the goal of taxing it, with other considerations addd later, partlx because of popular demand (for instance, standardizing of products).

In the US, on the other hand, enterprises were started even before any government exdisted, subject to no rules than those voluntarily applied by the owners. When administration started to spread, of course there was lots of resistance against that interference, and that left a mark.

Hmm, dunno if this is a good explanation, but at least it makes some sense to me.


[ Parent ]
Not sure what you mean by this (0.00 / 0)
In the US, on the other hand, enterprises were started even before any government exdisted, subject to no rules than those voluntarily applied by the owners.


Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.

[ Parent ]
That there was an economy in the territories before they became states... (0.00 / 0)
...and in the frontier cities before they evn elected their first major. Those enterprises were started and existed in a legal vaccuum. And later, of course, it was difficult to pass laws that would have changed those established customs and practices.

[ Parent ]
Cultural yes (4.00 / 2)
but not as longstanding as you might think. American businesses in the post-WWII period were not run in this fashion. They took responsibility seriously - to their community, employees, etc. They took a long term view of the health of the enterprise.  There was no where near the same vast differences in compensation we see today. These were changes that happened beginning in the 1970s (and are increasingly happening elsewhere in the world.)

One of the main drivers of this older ethic was the union movement in the US. As it calcified, it created the opportunity for corporate America to fightback and dismantle the old order. I think it will take a resurgent union movement in the US to turn back the tide.

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.


[ Parent ]
True, but utility regulation still works here. (4.00 / 1)
As long as it's continued and not deregulated. I don't see any reason insurance will be substantially different from electricity or water.

[ Parent ]
May I remind you that the US electricity net is subpar... (4.00 / 2)
..as evident time and again by horrible brown- and blackouts, and that a recent report showed that the quality of drinking water in the US leaves much to be desired? I don't think this kind of regulation is on the same level as the counterpart in othr nations...

[ Parent ]
WAY Too Wonky... And Not Wonky Enough (4.00 / 3)
Forcing folks to buy private insurance is not what progressive should be about, no matter what the rationale. It doesn't pass the ordinary folks' smell test.

Yes, there are wonky grounds to justify it, but that doesn't make it right.  An 85% "medical loss" still translates into 15% inefficiency compared to roughly 3-4% under Medicare.

That's roughly 300-400% percent excess inefficiency.

That's terrible.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
It's far worse than Medicare for all, absolutely (0.00 / 0)
But still, an improvement. The CBO estimates show about a 5% efficiency gain (I suspect mostly from community rating, i.e. mandates) plus substantial transfers to the working poor and middle class. That's an improvement, albeit only 1/4 to 1/6 of what we could get with single-payer.

I have to admit I'm very conflicted on this. Just Friday I wanted this beaten to squeeze Obama into reconciliation and a better bill. Now that there's something on the table, though, the temptation to cram it down the teabaggers' throats is intense. Plus, I want some legislative success from Obama, and his team members have been such miserable negotiators on this I'm afraid we'll get nothing else.

The strategy to pass it is to vote for it reluctantly, and then raise holy hell in public about how the ConservativeDems sold out to the insurance companies and how Obama has no spine. To beef it up maybe introduce the "Deficit Reduction Act of 2010" - consisting of a public option - and spend the campaign screaming in the faces of the Republican and the ConservaDems "WHY ARE YOU WASTING TAXPAYER MONEY!". Actually, the way the left is splitting up with the Congressional liberals voting for it while the media figures like Dean and Olberman call to "kill the bill" is a pretty good way to do it. The public may end up thinking this bill resulted from centrist attempts to screw the liberals (which is basically true) and when the problems come up we get to say "we told you so; now pass a public option."


[ Parent ]
Frog boiling (4.00 / 4)
In talking to friends about the Senate health care bill, I find them mostly of the better this than nothing school, and hopeful about the idea that we can fix it later. Most of them definitely don't think that we should raise much of a fuss about it, if by fuss we mean anything from progressively-inclined senators blocking its passage, to street demonstrations and sit-ins in corporate offices. That's exactly what we don't need or that sort of thing never does any good, is the general tenor of their views on the subject.

Of course, these are people in their sixties and seventies, and like me, would prefer not to have any of their own eggs broken in the course of making an omelette which might someday feed their children and grandchildren. Understandable, but not exactly helpful.

Their explanation of how we got to this sorry pass more often than not amounts to some variation or other on the theory of the slowly boiled frog. The interesting thing about their take on it, though, is that the frogs in their version are always references to other people, never to themselves. While it may be exhausting even to look at the level of apathy in the public at large, and the sheer power and inclination toward callousness and violence of the forces arrayed against us, it's difficult for me to believe that a generation which went through the civil rights and antiwar movements of the Sixties, many of them as participants, could be so intellectually timid. We're none of us, at this age, terribly sanguine about getting tear-gassed and night-sticked, me included, but surely we might at least be willing to concede that compromising with Joe Lieberman or Ben Nelson isn't the be-all, end-all of political wisdom.

Ah, well.... I agree with Paul that what we actually need, if not a revolution, is at least a redefinition of American politics -- bottom-to-top, root-and-branch, etc. Single-issue advocacy, thousands of different acronyms begging us for money to primary blue-dogs, fight global warming, save the whales or polar bears, or whatever, tends to diffuse our efforts, not to concentrate them.

Much of the work to do this is already in progress, I think. The successes of indigenous movements in Latin American, and the coalitions of African and small-island nations and NGOs revealed in Copenhagen are encouraging, as are the germs of recognition in this country that the Left wasn't completely bereft of a world-view simply because Stalinism collapsed (talk about a right-wing canard being internalized by the victim!)

We need time. Lots of time. We also need to be aware of the limitations working within the Democratic Party. We should think of the party as a vehicle, not as a family. Our goals, after all, are not the same. If the developing debacle in Washington over health care reform has anything at all to teach us, it's that. And as my absolutely last word on the overused metaphor in the title of this comment, let me say that you can't boil a frog who isn't in the pot in the first place.


Who the hell is the CBO? (4.00 / 2)
Yes, I probably am accepting at least a partial defeat in this big battle for Health Care Reform.

But I agree that the war isn't over, and we have to look for new issues, issues which will inevitably divide us from traditional Democrats.

One such issue, I think is the role played by the Congressional Budget Office in this fight.  Prior to this fight who outside the beltway had ever heard of the CBO?  But at every point, the CBO was brought it to give a supposedly impartial numbers-only score to any proposal contemplated by either House.  

Whatever biases the CBO brought to the task were not examined, and they should be, going forward.  In my opinion they tipped their hand a bit too far in the latest phase when they declared, seemingly out of the blue, that Harry Reid's proposal that private insurers adhere to a 90% "medical loss ratio" (in other words, administrative costs + profit could not exceed 10% of revenue) effectively would make private insurers a "government program" and that therefore its revenues and expenditures should be added to the federal budget deficit in calculations, thereby killing the bill as long as Obama's rule that HCR must be deficit-neutral remained in effect.

What the hell does this mean?  Where did they come up with this figure?  (A friend of mine would have called this "state of the art rectal extrapolation".)  It makes no sense, but you have to try to understand it anyway.  The only way it makes any sense is that the CBO's calculations betray an inherent bias in favor of allowing private insurers to continue to extract the minimum rate of profit they are willing to accept.  It implicitly accepts the notion that private industries cannot compete with government programs, budget be damned!  It's a built-in bias that rules off limits the very problem that we progressives are trying to solve.  Interesting that Congress's impartial Budgetary arm would brazenly expose such biases.

This is a far cry from the "just the facts, ma'am" image that has been granted to the CBO.  

I think it is a meaty bone for some Congressional back-bencher and ongoing movements to pursue.  In making this assessment the CBO exposed itself as a non-neutral tool of the existing powers that Congress is supposed to control.

In any future battles involving the budget it will be important to keep the CBO in check.  They are nothing but Wall St.'s guard dog.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


Why do people ignore history? (0.00 / 0)
Every time someone tries to reform the health care system, it takes on average 18 years to try again.

Democrats would NOT revisit after the pummeling they've gotten from the public so far.

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!


It's not ignoring history (4.00 / 4)
First, what you say is wrong with respect to Medicare.  Second, no one is unaware of what has happened with other health care efforts when they have failed. What most discount is the unjustified claim that this is somehow a historical law.  Even ignoring the Medicare example, it's a leap to say X has happened in the past and therefore will happen in the future.

You seem to think that there is only one possible lesson for Democrats to learn - whereas I think there are other lessons. Also, you seem to think that whether this happens again is up entirely to public officials. If they found themselves being pushed by a movement, they would revisit it even if they preferred not to.

Also, what pummeling from the public?  They took a pummeling from Republicans, from tea baggers, from astroturfers, and from the conservadems. They were attacked for dropping popular policy options from the health care bills. The effort as a whole is increasingly unpopular from their own doing.

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.


[ Parent ]
Medicare passed.... (0.00 / 0)
Improvements to it were much easier than starting anew.

Do you think ANYTHING like Medicare would even come close to passing today if one had to start fresh?

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!


[ Parent ]
Medicare failed at first (4.00 / 3)
and it didn't push it off the agenda for anything like 18 years.  That was my point.  I still see no justification for the iron law of health care reform, even if you exclude Medicare (which I don't think you should.)

Improvements were easy to pass for reasons that have no bearing on the Senate bill. First, the original argument was that if you create a public program, it will tend to expand - but that has been removed.  Second, when Medicare was being debated, Democrats pushed it as an example of social insurance, giving it an ideological defense that helped pave the way for improvements. That is also not what is happening now.

I don't see anything like Medicare passing today period - fresh or no. Whether it can be done tomorrow is a different matter.

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.


[ Parent ]
"What pummeling?" indeed… (4.00 / 1)
I think progressives could get a lot of mileage out of waging a battle for reform in a year with midterm elections, and there's one big reason why: Repeatedly, the polls from just about everywhere show that the public agrees with us on this issue.

I keep hearing that only diehard politicos vote or pay attention during the midterms, but what if Republicans and ConservaDems have to explain why they should get elected/re-elected when they're clearly in opposition to something a majority of the public is pretty solidly behind? No one denies that healthcare is hot-button/marquee issue, rather than something wonky or esoteric. The trump card would come from allowing progressives the opportunity to say (a lá Howard Dean), "It's not us standing in the way of truly meaningful legislation that benefits everyone. It's them." Strategically, I don't know why this seems so impossible; it connotes a disconnect our side that I just don't understand.  

"This ain't for the underground. This here is for the sun." -Saul Williams


[ Parent ]
Ratchet Effect versus Veto Effect (0.00 / 0)
The Right's big advantage is the veto effect.  They have a thousand and one places they can veto portions of bills and water them down.  While I agree we need to drop the unconstitutional filibuster, the basic principle will always apply.  The Left just cannot compete on that playing field.  Those in the middle will always have their vote, which defaults to "no", as the ultimate compromise.

Instead, we need to compete on our own turf with our own advantages.  Our primary advantage is the ratchet effect.  Conservatives have a very hard time taking away any right or benefit that has already been given.  For example, it was a Republican president who added drug benefits to Medicare.

Also, moderates always feel the need to make each bill smaller.  In that Medicare drug benefit example, there was a big donut hole in the middle where drugs were not covered.  Apparently, it would have been too expensive to include that benefit at that time.  However, this new bill fills that hole.  It is much easier to tack on an extra $100 million later than it is to get all that money up front.  Stupid, but true.

Now each step along the way we have to negotiate the best we can, so I don't completely disagree with you.  But I do believe that conventional wisdom is closer to the truth than what you believe.


My sense is that… (0.00 / 0)
...the veto effect might have worked for the left in this case, if progressives would actually use it instead of threatening to and then caving in. The right understands sticking to your guns and my sense is that the American people respect that even when they have reservations about it.

Since there's less populist skepticism about the progressive position on this issue, incrementalism actually works in the right's favor. They know the left is too afraid to dream big, so they let us start from next-to-zero and whittle us down to nothing. How do you think we got from President Obama on the stump, charging up crowds with public option-type language in early Sept, to Rahm Emanuel talking smack about progressives right now? We knew how badly they wanted this bill, so squandering our newly begotten leverage (our veto effect) was a colossal mistake.  

"This ain't for the underground. This here is for the sun." -Saul Williams


[ Parent ]
Sorry, But (0.00 / 0)
something's missing from your argument, Mark.  I don't see how anything you're saying refutes anything I'm saying.

In fact, just the opposite--your argument is quite synergistic with mine:  The processes of improving legislation over time work much better if one has an enduring organizational structure to continue working on them, as I suggest should be our basic organizing premise.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
This (0.00 / 0)
The processes of improving legislation over time work much better if one has an enduring organizational structure to continue working on them, as I suggest should be our basic organizing premise.

I absolutely agree with this statement.

My pushback was on your de-assuming the assumptions.  I think it is a bad idea to reject bills like this in the hopes of getting something better when you can accept something like this and continue work for something better.  This is doubly true in the case where the most important chunks missing from this bill -- medicare buy-in, public option and improved subsidies -- are exactly the type of changes that can go through reconciliation.

I agree that we need an enduring organizational structure to really make that strategy work.  But that organization should work in synergy with progressive strengths, like the ratchet effect, not against them, like promoting many progressive blocks.  (Note I was in favor of this progressive block this time, but only for very specific reasons.  Normally it isn't a very good strategy.)


[ Parent ]
USER MENU

Open Left Campaigns

SEARCH

   

Advanced Search

QUICK HITS
STATE BLOGS
Powered by: SoapBlox