(Working our way out of) the progressive predicament

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Dec 20, 2009 at 18:30


There were two outside posts (a DKos diary and a Salon article) linked to in quick hits this week that relate to the broader framework involving our discussions this weekend, which have been dealt with both generally and with respect to health care reform.

First off, RapsodiaStellare quoted the best parts and linked to diary by thereisnospoon, "No One Is Going To Save You Fools". Second, sTiVo linked to Thomas Schaller's piece, "On the meaning of asymmetrical majorities ".

thereisnospoon strikes a similar theme to one I've been pounding on for years, and re-emphasized again today-that progressive need to organize and engage in hegemonic warfare across the entire range of political and cultural issues.  He doesn't use those exact same words, but that's the general drift.  Shaller is taking a more narrow look at why conservative/Republican majorities in the Senate translate so much more readily than progressive/Democratic majorities do.  Shaller makes some important points that fit neatly into a larger analysis of power as well.  Looking at both these pieces, I think it's a hopeful sign that people are writing and thinking more about these subjects.  It's long overdo for us actually do something, not just talk.  But widespread discussion is a good prelude to action.  The more people have been exposed to thinking about it, the more likely we are to have a well-informed foundation.  So, I'm here now to do my bit to spur more discussion and improve the potential foundations.  The discussion of both can be found on the flip.


Paul Rosenberg :: (Working our way out of) the progressive predicament
First off, RapsodiaStellare cleverly excerpted the best parts of thereisnospoon's diary:

And each and every one of you is being taken for fools.  You work for an election or two to put chosen leaders in place, and expect those leaders to work their "leadership" magic to ram reforms down the throats of the corporate sector, failing to understand just how fully the corporate sector holds the cards.   It's not the campaign contributions: it's the persuasion money....

If you want to win, you will ORGANIZE. You will organize in the same way the Right has done for the last 40 years, and you will spend money on persuasion, where it really matters.  You will, in short, make the politicians as afraid of you as they are of them.  The Right has built vast networks of think tanks, newspapers, periodicals, cable news channels, and political advocacy organizations to spread their finely tuned, well-honed messages.  Their politicians may fail them, and their actual policies may be deeply unpopular, but their message machine nearly always works its magic to get them what they want, even when Democrats are in power....

What we had were labor unions and the AARP delivering generic hopeful messages without an ounce of the power or creativity that one might find in a random Budweiser ad.

Of course, it's not quite that simple.  People at the grassroots can try to organize all they want, but without institutional support-or worse yet, with active opposition from seemingly sympathetic institutions-the task is extremely daunting.  The right took decades to begin getting its institutional house in order after the Great Depression hit, massively discrediting the conservative establishment of that era.  The grassroots rightwing activism of the McCarthy Era suffered many of the same problems that face progressives now.  Individuals like you or I were powerless to create institutions like the Heritage Foundation, the Washington Times, or Fox News, and no amount of railing at them to "ORGANIZE" could change that reality.  But still, we can quicken things somewhat by becoming clear about what is needed, and starting to pool our resources to bring it into being.  We can stop giving money to the Democratic Party to either piss away in the next election cycle, or piss on us afterwards, and instead put that money into independent efforts and into institution-building.  So maybe it is as simple as that, after all.

But there is another part of the diary where thereisnospoon gets a bit carried away with the power of his profession:

The problem is people like me, and the people I work for.  I'm what they call a Qualitative Research Consultant, or QRC for short.  Here's my website.  There's even a whole association of us who meet regularly to discuss ideas and tactics.  Together with the AAPC, the MRA, the AMA, ESOMAR, and a whole host of other organizations you've never heard of, we have more power and control than you know.  We're extremely good at what we do, and we do it all behind the scenes, appealing to and manipulating your subconscious brain in ways that your conscious brain has little to no control over.

Give us a little money to test some things out, and we can work magic.  Our business is persuasion, and we're very good at it.  Just watch PBS Frontline's series, The Persuaders to get just a small inkling of what you're up against.  We can make a company that earns a 38% gross profit margin manufacturing purely propriety products seem hip, cool and progressive.  We can take sugar water and sell it back to you as a health drink, and even Whole Foods shoppers will believe it.  We can take 30 different brands of vodka with almost exactly the same ingredients, and make you understand instantly just what kind of person drinks which brand, and how much you should expect to pay for each, without a moment's thought.

All that and more may be true, but this is not:

For a little coin, we can even make poor people hate inheritance taxes, just by using a few little words that work.  The biggest difference between Obama and FDR/LBJ is that people like me weren't really around back then.  As the TV show Mad Men can show you, our industry was just getting off the ground in the mid-1960's.  And while it's true that the Democratic ad consultants of the 1980's and 1990's and early Aughts were wildly ineffective, that says far more about the prevailing consultant class in the Democratic Party than about the power of ad consulting in general.

So here's what you have to understand.  If the health insurance and financial industries really felt scared by any particular politician or political party, or their lobbying efforts were inadequate, they could throw them out of power in a heartbeat.  With a wave of their hand and a few billion dollars or so in our direction, the pharma companies and Goldman Sachs could absolutely destroy the Democratic Party in 2010 and beyond.  The only reason they don't do so is that it's cheaper and easier to buy a few key Democrats off instead, and intimidate the rest.  Plus, they don't have to run the risk of a right-wing populist backlash, either.

That's why Barack Obama can't renege on his deal with PhRMA: PhRMA almost singlehandedly destroyed Hillarycare in 1993, and spent the money to tip the balance of the elections in 1994.  They can easily do it again.  So could Goldman Sachs and the rest of the financial vampires.

.

Some bits in there are true, but as a whole this passage vastly overstates the power in the hands of persuaders, and vastly understates two things: (1) The untapped power of a mobilized, unified progressive vision, and (2) The voter suppressing impact of elected Democrats rushing to the right (1994 was THE classic example of that).  Still, I very much agree with the larger point about the power of persuasive rhetoric.  That's what George Lakoff has been writing about for years, and I've repeatedly endorsed his message.  It's just that I think that the corporate practitioners are more illustrative than they are necessarily powerful.  They're powerful, are right-but largely because they are largely unopposed.  And that's the most important lesson for use to reflect on right now, IMHO.

One further point is that we have a desperate need to clear our heads of pseudo-progressive static, such as that being used to jam clear thinking about what's going on with health care reform. One of the links in his diary is to a very good piece by Amanda Marcotte, "Non-voters need results to vote, not scolding".  It's somewhat ironic, since thereisnospoon links to her piece thus:

That's partly because the American political Right never quits and never gives up.  They know that organization is the key to their success, and they don't trust politicians to do their work for them.  Democrats, on the other hand, get disappointed and quit when our politicians don't pan out the way we wanted.  That's why we lose.

What makes this ironic is that thereisnospoon is confusing two different phenomena, which Amanda is trying to differentiate between: activist disappointment and quitting vs. voter disappointment and quitting.  She's responding to these two posts by Mattand Sir Charles that fail to distinguish between progressive bloggers (plausible indicators for progressive activists attitudes) and Democratic voters.  By this late date, anyone who pretends to any sort of political expertise damn well ought to know that what's going on here is a structural feature of the American electoral system that's been in place for roughly 100 years. We are the only advanced industrial nation with a pronounced and persistent class skew to our rates of voter participation-a skew that persistently under-represents progressives views, and like any feature of the political system that has endured this long, there is nothing accidental, incidental, casual, or individual about this.

Sure it's specific individuals who are not voting, but their non-participation is not fundamentally a result of individual choice. They are responding rationally to the fact that their votes don't make a difference, that politicians don't listen to people like them, and that paying attention to politics only gets their hopes up in order to dash them--an extra helping of bitter disappointment that they really don't need in their lives.  This is clearly visible in the following date from the American National Election Study, which shows a clear rational foundation for this:

The above perceptions are responding structurally to the abiding structures of American politics, which progressives have pushed against from time to time, but have not fundamentally altered.  With the election of Barack Obama and a healthy Democratic trifecta, it could have been hoped that some of these structures could have been altered significantly enough to begin a process that would eventually produce a different fundamental alignment.  A few examples include:

(1) Genuine election reform.  The 2000 election should have been the occasion for this.  Instead, Democratic weakness and Republican pscho-aggressiveness only served to make things worse. Project Vote regularly posts here at Open Left about their work and the work of others to try to accomplish this, but it has never been embraced by the Democrats nationally, nor has it become a significant national priority for progressives as a whole.  Significant aspects: (1) Enfranchisement: Drastically restrict, if not totally eliminate felony disfranshisement. (2) Registration reform: (a) Strictly enforce the National Voting Rights Act so-called "motor voter" provisions that actually apply to all social service offices.  (b) Enact universal same-day registration. (3)

(2) Significantly boosting the organizing capacity of unions by passing EFCA.

(3) Significantly enhancing future demographic trends favoring Dems through comprehensive immigration reform.

(4) Enhancing political participation via a post-election continuing campaign that engages previously marginal voters, takes their views and priorities seriously, and uses their engagement to alter the political calculus in Washington.  A no-brainer example: organize with schoolteachers, parents, students and principals to ensure stimulus funding sufficient to cover 100% of school needs during the recession, until full recovery is achieved.  Snowe and Collins were easy pickings had such a strategy been used, and possibly three to five other senators could have been swayed as well.  Most importantly, the entire tenor of the stimulus debate and its aftermath would have been totally different.  

(5) Bail out Main Street, rather than Wall Street--which should have been drastically re-structured instead.  Remind people, by vivid, massive demonstration, why Democratic policies are better for the mass majority of the American people, and show them, by the stark contrasts of results, that Republican policies are disastrous failures.

You get the picture.  These are things that people in the blogosphere have written about many times, things that are almost entirely absent from political discourse in the traditional political media.   And this is the perennial problem we face: progressive activists may well understand what could be done to engage and mobilize voters who instead are allowed to drop away due to bitter disappointment.  And yes, the the solution to this problem is to organize to organize the voters to continue pressuring the politicians to keep the promises they never intended to keep.  That's not an easy sell, to be sure.  But there are openings to make it easier to grasp, and that is what our job as activists should largely be about.


Schaller's piece was a reflection on an earlier piece of his "A Teachable Moment (Lost?)" and one by John Aravosis ,"The GOP had at most 55 Senators during Bush's presidency".  Reflecting on what they both wrote, Shaller writes:

the essential, underlying question we are both asking is the same one. Only our answers differ.

Aravosis' answer revolves around an intangible, namely, political resolve:

What the GOP lacked in numbers, they made up for in backbone, cunning and leadership. Say what you will about George Bush, he wasn't afraid of a fight. If anything, the Bush administration, and the Republicans in Congress, seemed to relish taking on Democrats, and seeing just how far they could get Democratic members of Congress to cave on their promises and their principles. Hell, even Senator Barack Obama, who once famously promised to lead a filibuster against the FISA domestic eavesdropping bill, suddenly changed his mind and actually voted for the legislation. Such is the power of a president and a congressional leadership with balls and smarts.

I don't disagree with John. But as I said yesterday, I think there is something more systematic, specifically in the way that the conservative agenda is buffered by the power system in Washington in many ways and to a greater degree than is the progressive agenda. There are exceptions to this rule, but overall, I think there's an obvious and semi-permanent asymmetry at work here.

Part of this is not ideological, mind you, other than in the literal fact that conservatives tend to want to do less or change less rapidly or less dramatically than progressives do. And because the status quo "wins" whenever nothing is done, or at least generally survives when only little or incremental changes are made to it--this is a staple assumption of game theory and social choice theories, btw--well, that means there is a built-in advantage for (most) conservative policies and for conservatism as a philosophical approach to governance. This may not be fair, you say. But it is the ineluctable state of political nature, so to speak.

And, indeed, that is true.  Which is why Mike Lux's book is true: because of the built-in asymmetry, great progress is only made in brief spurts when the pressures for progressive reform build up to a level that overcomes this "normal" state of asymmetry favoring conservatives.  And it's our job as progressives to build the movement infrastructure, first to help build the pressures for progressive reform, and second to help capture the much larger pressures that arise in times of crisis, and channel them in a progressive direction.

We are in an historically unfortunate and weakened state.  The period since 9/11 has been a time of fighting against very heavy odds, simply to limit the folly of Bush/Cheney's delusionally misdirected war on terror.  It's really no wonder that we weren't prepared to fight on health care, global warming, financial regulation and the economic stimulus virtually simultaneously.  We should have, of course.  We should have been building the same sort of hegemonic warfare machine as the right has been building for the past 30-40 years.

But given that the vast majority of folks in the left blogosphere have only been politically active since 9/11, it's foolish to be finger-pointing and self-recriminating.  We should note that historical lack without wallowing in it, but with a firm resolve to begin doing something about it.  That should be the top New Years resolution for one and all of us in the year ahead.  It's an election year.  I know it will be very difficult.  But don't just think about winning the elections in November this year.  Think about laying the groundwork to hold politicians of both parties accountable.  


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Some good points but (4.00 / 2)
In your close, how can "winning elections" and holding "politicians of both parties accountable" when the candidates that we helped win a historical election in 2009 sold us out on virtually every issue since taking power?

There is not way to hold obama/rahm and dem leadership accountable if in the same breath we proclaim we will help them "win" elections, giving them all free passes for selling progressive/liberals out.

Time for a third party - repugs are in shambles, they are being split (at least for now) with the goofy "tea-baggers".  Even if we can't win via a third party, at least we are sending the message that dems will be held accountable.

"Winning" elections for them just reinforces that they are not going to be held accountable.


My Point Is Simple (4.00 / 4)
Think about the long term.  Don't give money to the party or its creatures.  In 1988, I was part of a progressive precinct network that concentrated on initiatives, targeting occasional voters.

People were free to support candidates as well, and in fact my initial contact (even though I knew several people involved beforehand) was as a representative of the Jackson Campaign to establish specifically informal cooperation, so that all individuals who choose to would get the literature they needed from us.

That would be one model of the kind thing that people can do.  There are numerous others.

I fully support the strategy of punishing selected Dems, not only challenging them in primaries, but running independent progressives against them in the general as well.

But we've been over this many times--the history of third parties in the US is clear, they can be effective at the state level, but not at the national level, until one of the two leading parties either disappears or at least fragments irreparably.  I will not support or endorse a strategy with no plausible path to success and a persistent record of failure in the past.  I will happily support those, like the Working Families Party in NY, who can and do have a strategy for success.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
If the WFP (4.00 / 1)
doesn't get out here in Washington State soon, I think I'll just start it myself.

Or move to Oregon.


[ Parent ]
Is the WFP even interested in Washington State? (0.00 / 0)
They seem to be most interested in states that allow fusion voting, which is why there is apparently some WFP organizing going on in South Carolina.

Washington isn't on the list of states where fusion voting is allowed, so step one is looking into how hard it is to use an initiative or referendum to change state law/constitution.  I believe Massachusetts and California are on the list for WFP efforts because of the ability to get an initiative before the people (but Massachusetts rejected fusion voting 65-35 in 2006).

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
Hey Anthony (0.00 / 0)
We certainly have an initiative process up here, but apparently some poll testing was done a few years ago, and people were confused with the concept. As someone told me: "anytime people are unsure they understand the concept, they default to not voting for it".

The other alternative is simply to start the party, run a few candidates, and eat into the Dem vote enough that the Dems in the state legislature are "inspired" to pass legislation that established fusion.


[ Parent ]
i've never quite understood this (0.00 / 0)
how is that one party endorsing another party's candidate is something that can be allowed or not allowed?

is it about getting a line on the ballot?

not everything worth doing is profitable. not everything profitable is worth doing.


[ Parent ]
That can be answered a few ways (0.00 / 0)
If you are asking about why it is open to debate, the Supreme Court has ruled that the state governments have wide discretion in governing elections, subject to constraints such as the Constitution.  The Court has ruled that the Constitution does not obligate the states to permit cross-endorsement.

Even if you do permit fusion voting, there are multiple ways of doing it.  New York has one line per party, with some candidates on multiple lines.  Oregon has one line per candidate, with candidates allowed to list multiple parties on their line.

If you want to know what justification there is, one reason put forth is that it would confuse voters.  Imagine the 2000 Palm Beach butterfly ballot being used nationwide and you get the picture.  Of course, New Yorkers don't seem to have a problem.  Obviously, the real reason is that those in power fear that fusion voting would change things.  

And the reason many on the left want fusion voting is precisely because they believe it will change things for the better.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think progressives would be agitating for fusion voting if the predicted outcome was that social conservatives would gain power.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
Fusion is illegal in many states... (0.00 / 0)
... because it was very successful about 100 years ago in creating a fragment of voters within a two party system that were unified in splitting elections for which ever party did their bidding.

It became illegal by and large because of it's success.  The two parties in power realized they had something to gain by killing that fragment, so they banded together (can you say "bipartisan?") and outlawed that type of party.

Specifically it is illegal in most states to have a party that endorses another party's candidate.

BUT that doesn't mean we can't organize within either party and do the same thing unofficially.  It's just much more directly quantitative when it's leagal.

One way we could do that legally is by unifying a message that we will punish XYZ Dems who don't do what we like (Lieberman, Nelson, Stupak, etc.), and then (and this is key) we can demonstrate contributing to those Dems loosing in consecutive election cycles.  


[ Parent ]
oh, definitely (0.00 / 0)
that we ought to organize ourselves as a minority party within the coalition government known as "the Democratic Party" has always made sense to me.

i'm just a bit gobsmacked that it can be illegal for a group of citizens to express a preference in an election. what, do the cops show up at your convention and arrest everyone?

thanks both for the explanations.

not everything worth doing is profitable. not everything profitable is worth doing.


[ Parent ]
What you describe isn't all that close to "the real thing" (0.00 / 0)
Although I agree that voters inclined to vote Democratic are fools not to do at least so much as you indicate, a better analogy to formal fusion voting would be to form a voting bloc, which shows zero loyalty to either Dem or Repub parties, and just registers for whichever party suits them in time for their states' primary. Even this is an inferior situation to where fusion voting is legal. The reason, obviously, is that the voting bloc might favor a Democrat for one elected office, and a Republican for another. They will be forced to register as either one or the other, losing a good portion of their ability to sway both candidates.

What you propose (which I agree with) is similar to jeffroby's Full Court Press (FCP), though FCP embraces no unified strategy for how to vote in the general election. I suppose if the Dem candidate is particularly bad, the FCP voters could simply declare their intentions to stay home via signing an online pledge. If a losing Dem candidate loses an election by X,000 votes, and see an online petition of > X,000 voters that he/she can verify to be registered Dems, declaring that they stayed home, then local candidates will get the message for the next election cycle.

Actually, better than staying home, IMO any FCP voting bloc which coheres through a general election should not stay home, but rather gather in a public place and hold a "Bad Luck to You, Mr./Mrs. Candidate" rally. If the Dem candidate loses by a smaller margin then the size of their voting bloc, they can treat themselves to hot chocolate and marshmellows, knowing that they are responsible. If the Dem candidates loses by a margin smaller than the size of the voting bloc, then they can treat themselves to either hot chocolate or marshmellows, but not both. And if the Dem candidates wins, they can just pledge to re-double their efforts to grow their voting bloc and come back bigger than ever in 2 years.

(N.B. FDL's Blue America for Single Payer is looking to run healthcare friendly candidates in primaries across the nation. I don't think they have a strategy of asking their supporters to sit out general elections where a bad Dem is running, though. Also, I don't think that they are looking to organize even an informal bloc of voters.)

435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


[ Parent ]
the "our Dem is a total loser" scenario illustrates the value of a 3rd party (0.00 / 0)
If you form even an informal voting bloc (I suppose that a voting bloc in an IVCS would be considered formal, even if it has no legal standing), and a bad Dem that they can't vote for in the general election is running, they could also register their discontent by voting 3rd party during the general election. And make it known via online petition and public gatherings (with marshmellows and hot chocolate at the ready if the 3rd party guy wins).

Since independents form a group on par with Democrats, even peeling off 10% of the Democratic vote in the general could lead to a victory for the 3rd party, if the independents had already unified around the 3rd party candidate.

435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


[ Parent ]
WA eliminated 3rd parties (4.00 / 1)
The "Top Two" thing (initiative or referendum, I don't know) limited general election participation to the top two vote getters , essentially the Democrat and the Republican.  IIRC the Republicans were pushing it, probably to eliminate the Libertarians.

Why would people would choose to eliminate their own rights just to benefit the politicians?  LA had a similar process, the so-called "jungle primary" and scrapped it.  


[ Parent ]
The Jungle Primary (0.00 / 0)
Interestingly enough, the so-called "jungle primary" was instituted by the corrupt Democratic governor Edwin Edwards with the intent of harming Republicans, but it appeared to have the opposite effect.  When Paul Rosenberg talks about hegemonic struggle, he sometimes gives the appearance that the structural disadvantages faced by progressives are entirely by design (and to be clear, I don't believe he actually thinks that every single flaw is part of a grand conspiracy), but sometimes conservatives benefit from unintended consequences.  The lesson to take away is that whoever has a better understanding of reality is more able to game the system by coming up with a process that appears fair on the surface.

As for Louisiana scrapping the jungle primary, a Supreme Court ruling held that the timing of the jungle primary was unconstitutional because elections were often effectively held on a date other than what the Constitution specifies.  Louisiana tried to fix it by holding the jungle primary on Election Day and a run-off, if necessary, in December, but seem to have gotten tired of having their elections for US Congress not match the dates for their state and local elections, which retain use of the jungle primary.

Nate Silver seems to think that adopting the jungle primary will result in a "land of a thousand Liebermans".  I wouldn't go that far, but I do think that, all other things being equal, the political party more prone to internal factionalism is at a disadvantage.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
After being sold out like we were in 209 (4.00 / 2)
Don't see how we "punishing selected Dems" means anything - after all, the sell-out began at the very top.

Folks can make all the noise they want about LIE-berman and everyone else - but the fact is, that's who the white house stood behind.

You are actually the one that is advocating "a strategy with no plausible path to success and a persistent record of failure in the past."

We know what we get when we elect the current brand of dems - just another group that represents the corporate interests.

I can show you many more examples of how electing dems undermines progressive/liberal ideals than you can show me failed third party candidates at the national level.


[ Parent ]
Can you show me... (4.00 / 1)
... any instance where a third party ever successfully managed to get their policies enacted in our two party system?

You can say that Social Security and The Civil Rights Act and Medicare are flawed incremental changes, but they actually happened and they changed our society for the better.

I think no one here is saying it was all Lieberman's fault. Quite the contrary.  I'm positive I've seen both Chris and Paul (and David Sirota and maybe even Mike Lux) slam Obama for being weak and two faced about specifics of Health Care reform.

So the important question is, what to do now?

Regardless of action within or outside of the Democratic Party, I'm in favor of punishing for all the guilty parties INCLUDING Obama.  It would never successfully oust him in a primary but it would be messy and maybe even get him to make some firmer commitments for his second term.


[ Parent ]
I'd make one minor adjustment (4.00 / 1)
Which is to claim that third parties can be effective when they have a geographic base, which is not necessarily the state level.  Cincinnati, for example, has a local third party known as the Charter Party which regularly wins seats on city council and had mayors (including Cincinnati's first black mayor) as recently as the '80s.  It's an old school classical progressive party that was originally organized in support of a city charter that included nonpartisan elections (hence the name).  Anyone who wants to move beyond city elections in politics joins a major party.  Jack Gilligan (father of Kathleen Sebelius) was a Charterite who won the state governorship as a Democrat, but then, Ken Blackwell is also an ex-Charter Party member.

If I wanted to start a third party from scratch, I would probably choose to begin somewhere in the Midwest.  George Wallace was from Iowa.  Bob LaFollette was from Wisconsin.  Minnesota has the DFL.  The relatively high level of union membership in the area creates interesting opportunities for organizing.  It is geographically removed from some of the moneyed interests of the East Coast.  The Midwest is perceived as full of swing states, so a more progressive third party movement has more leverage in affecting the Democratic Party.  

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
What about the unions? (4.00 / 2)
I mostly agree with what you are saying-and we'll leave aside for now what I don't-but my question is when are the unions going to actually stand up?

Because, you know...how's that "Middle-Class Taskforce" doin"? You remember, the one that Obama promised, his second week in office, when he gathered union leaders in the White House to give them the shiv on EFCA and, well basically anything else they were interested in? As a sop, he promised a Middle-class Task Force, that would report directly to the Vice-President. Not the office of the Vice-President, but Biden himself.

Remember that?

I called bs at the time, but I thought that experience would spark the unions into action. Real Action. But I haven't seen that.

If there is going to be a real resurgence of progressive-populism, then its going to have to have strong, vibrant unionism as its backbone. Why? Precisely because unions can be effective outside the policital process...they don't have to rely on any policitian keeping his campaign pledge, in order to be a success. And they are also a unique vehicle for change in that they are an institution that naturally organizes across many demographic groups and cultural sensibilities, fusing them together with a message of economic democracy.

So whither the unions, both in their political activism and their workplace activism? Where are the union-backed workers running in primaries...why do we always get candidates who are lawyers and self-made millioniares?



I Agree (0.00 / 0)
Unions are key, and they've been far too passive and patient.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Perhaps they make the same mistake you do (4.00 / 1)
blindly support dems that sell them out on a regular basis, which inherently fails to hold them accountable.

NAFTA, for example, was a disaster - it was shepherded into existance by clinton/rahm.

Anyone really surprised that obama/rahm is selling us out now?

And unions are going to continue to cluelessly support this party in the name of helping working folks?


[ Parent ]
You're A Piss-Poor Liar (4.00 / 1)
I don't blindly support Dems.  Never have.  Never will.

But it's nice to know up front that you're a God damn liar.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Can't convince me (2.00 / 2)
But keep voting for the clowns with Ds after their name if you like.  

You're the one that proclaimed, you would not "support or endorse a strategy with no plausible path to success and a persistent record of failure in the past."

Which means you are either staying home or voting for more of the same because they have a D after their name.

So who looks like a liar now?


[ Parent ]
I Said I Would Support Statewide Third Parties (0.00 / 0)
And I do support the Working Families Party.  Just as I supported the New Party when it was fighting to establish fusion voting as a constitutional right, which would have enabled a national third party strategy that could work.

So you lie rather carelessly, it seems.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Anyone that reads the thread can see (2.00 / 2)
You lie rather boldly - you did make the statements I quoted.  Everyone can see it.

When it serves your purpose, you draw a distinction between state and national politics.  When it doesn't serve your purpose, you try to blur the distinction you said.

The slight of hand is yours - if the party you mention as being worthy of your support in NY is so worthy, then why do you make blanket statements that it is not feasible to talk about a third party on a national level?


[ Parent ]
I'm not sure Unions are the key (0.00 / 0)
I think it's very possible that the day of the union has passed. I'm NOT happy about that, but I just don't see a new day dawning. I think any planning that relies on unions as a lynchpin will fail. Whatever help they can provide - great. But saying that they've been too passive and patient, right, there, tells you something.

I agree completely, though, with your initial post.


[ Parent ]
Spot on (4.00 / 1)
"too passive and patient" is just another way to fail and hold politicians and other major players accountable.

[ Parent ]
Unions Have MUCH More Institutional Power Than Anyone Else On The Left (4.00 / 2)
That's still not a great deal of power.  But it's a lot more than anyone else you can shake a stick at.

They've also been pronounced dead before, too.  So don't count your zombies too soon.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Can I Disagree? (4.00 / 3)
To play devil's advocate, unionism is still a viable force in this country and can be much more than it currently is. For one, if enough people are unionized, overall wages in our economy go up. It's also theoretically possible that the government sets a policy that says giant companies like Wal Mart get a choice: unionize or provide equal or better pay and benefits than if they were unionized.

When about 25-30% of the American workforce was unionized, between the 1940s and 1970s, all income groups in this country saw their incomes rise equally, about 100%, over those decades. Only when Reagan came in and started union busting and pushing union-destroying policies, followed by the Bushes, Clinton, and now Obama (so far, he could change still), unionized workers dropped to about 8-10% of workers. No surprise that since the 1970s, all income groups except the top one half of one percent, saw their incomes increase about 20-50% while that top one half percent rose about 200-250%.

Further, and this gets to the union viability part, there are examples like Harley Davidson that are unionized and practice open book accounting where the interests of the workers and management are more aligned than in the traditional union contract people think of when they think about unions. While certainly the interests of workers and management can be at odds, there are many times and many business structures than can harness both workers and management to benefit both sides.

Finally, 99% of Americans (perhaps in any country in the world) are not wealthy and will never be wealthy. The only way to counter-balance the weight of the wealthy interests in our society is to push for policies that benefit the non-wealthy, the 99%. Unions happen to be one extremely viable way to balance interests, for reasons others have described here. For example, unions can act outside of the political system and they work across many economic, racial, and cultural groups.

So, in short, you can say unions are dead. But they still have great potential and progressives should not be afraid to push for unionism. Not every industry or business should be unionized. But progressives should strive to get back to the 25-30% of the workforce covered by unions.


[ Parent ]
As long as unions march mindlessly in lockstep (4.00 / 1)
with dems - they will be dead and irrelevant.

[ Parent ]
My union, the IAFF (an AFL-CIO affiliate), marches neither mindlessly, nor in lockstep (4.00 / 2)
It assesses candidates' - local and national - specific stances on issues pertaining to worker safety, collective bargaining rights, compensation, benefits, etc. and makes endorsements accordingly, without regard to party or to stances on issues not pertinent to job-related worker concerns. Period.  

[ Parent ]
Great (4.00 / 1)
need more of this however.

[ Parent ]
Be careful making generalizations about "unions" (4.00 / 1)
The new day has already started dawning.  There are unions that are aggressively organizing, that are reaching out to previously non-unionized constituencies and sectors. Some have found great success working with community groups to recruit candidates at the beginning of their career and using grassroots organizing (rather than waiting until they are already successful and using campaign contributions to get access.)

That is not to say that all or even most unions are like this. But the possibility of unions depends on what these most dynamic ones are doing, not on what average ones are doing.

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.


[ Parent ]
Have you considered the possibility that union leadership is partly co-opted? (4.00 / 2)
That's my assumption.

In any event, I don't believe in waiting for leadership from the usual suspects. As far as I can figure, the best initial move towards getting better people elected is jeffroby's "Full Court Press" (FCP). Please note that if my assumption is correct, then it will be union rank-and-file who flock to an FCP, long before the union leadership does.

Since FCP will run minimalist candidates, nobody can complain about them "not having a chance" or being underfunded. While the transition from 'just showing up' in a Full Court Press to actually winning seats is not clear, I believe that it's inevitable, and given the winter of our discontent, if FCP can run candidates in 2010, I could see lots of them getting elected with minimalist financial resources.

Oh, and BTW, as I've mentioned at OL a couple of times, there can be a conflict between national union HQ and a local union even on something as basic as healthcare, and the reason is that the union's national HQ has part of it's pension plans in pharmaceutical companies.

Like I suggested, "partly co-opted". It's a really bad idea to wait around for union leadership. If the rank-and-file are working the FCP angle in droves, and especially if FCP gets candidates elected as soon as 2010, the union rank-and-file may well drag union leadership into a more productive electoral route.  

435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


[ Parent ]
You might be right (0.00 / 0)
I guess, as someone who is outside union circles, but has always admired the movement, that I hoped that at some point they would spur into action and lead the way. But maybe you're right about the leadership, they do seem to have a habit of "losing their guns" just before a gunfight.

Hey, don't I see you sometimes at European Tribune?


[ Parent ]
European Tribune? (0.00 / 0)
Not sure whether you mean as a journalist or 'anybody can do it' commentator, but in either case, no.

435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


[ Parent ]
Suppose Trumka and the AFL-CIO does (4.00 / 1)
at this point stand firm on funding the current Health Care reform using the House's funding strategy (tax the rich) rather than the Senate's.

They have, you know, made that very point.  They are, in fact, trying to stand up on that basis now.

I happen to believe that if they do, neither Obama, Emanuel, or any of the Dem traitors in the Senate will be in any position to resist them.

I've been making this point all weekend.  When it hasn't provoked hostility, it's fallen on deaf ears.

The fact remains they're trying to stand up now on this basis.  Will we support them if they do?  Or, will we call them sellouts for not killing the bill?


sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
But if the problem is really the "traitors" (4.00 / 1)
you mention, then meaningful action has to start by going after them directly.

Union help on the healthcare front is important, but it is now looking like too little too late.

The real question is who are the unions going to throw their muscle behind now that we can clearly identify who has sold us out.


[ Parent ]
Two points (0.00 / 0)
Too little too late, so screw em?  That doesn't make much sense.  They're fighting now.  It may be belated, but it's not too late.  This fight may even be winnable and of some lasting value.  But all us "leftists" are "way beyond that" - crying in our beer.

I don't actually agree that the main problem is the traitors - though I'd support any effort to get rid of them that emerges.  (I'm supposing by traitors you mean Lieberman, Nelson, Lincoln, etc. and not the wider definition that's become popular in some quarters - any Democrat not willing to kill the bill, including the Browns, the Sanderses, etc.).  

But I do quarrel with the idea that that should be our primary focus.

I think that focusing entirely on purging the traitors gives a free pass to the larger right-wing forces which include BOTH the traitor Dems and the Republican Stone Wall.  How easily we accept the idea that Republicans are an immutable block of stone that CANNOT be moved.  I would like to see vigorous campaigns mounted against Republicans who opposed any form of Health Care Reform in districts where that's viable. Such campaigns may not be viable everywhere.  But by all means let's have a VIGOROUS campaign against Michelle Bachmann.  That to me would be equally as valuable as a primary challenge to Blanche Lincoln or Ben Nelson.  The Republican Stone Wall is what gives the Democratic traitors their power.  Knock a traitor out or kick a hole in the stone wall.  It's all the same to me.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Intriguing analysis, Paul; (0.00 / 0)
"but do you have to use so durn many [big] words?"

Those asymmetrical majorities (4.00 / 2)
Various things help explain the difference in effectiveness of the GOP and Dems in Congress 2001 to date. Here's one:

Before 1996, the last election in which the GOP kept control of both houses was 1928; and, from 1995 on, they've never enjoyed big majorities in either house.

All during this recent period, the GOP have acted like insurgents, as if they needed to wage constant warfare to grab as much political swag before normality was restored and the Establishment Dems regained control.

They seem to have what I hesitate to call, but will do anyway, a metanarrative which, though throughly false, guides their actions: they are the outsiders, the ordinary Joes come to Washington to fight for common people like them against the wily patricians who run the place, pitting their common sense and native cunning against the patricians' sophistry and sleight of hand, democracy against aristocracy, home-spun against fancy French silks.

Bush's shtick was pretty much the same, of course; and  Us  vs Washington is a staple of GOP propaganda.

With that mindset, it's easier from GOP MCs to see themselves as beleagured (Alamo-style), needing to maintain unity, accept strong leadership, use whatever tactics work to pass or balk legislation (as necessary), be uncollegiate and so forth.

(Classic example  - that time when Tom DeLay kept a vote open for three hours on the Medicare bill.

All kinds of Dems (including the lefty sphere) howled No fair! back then, I seem to remember!)

Of course things are rougher in the House than in the Senate - but the difference between the parties is much the same in both houses.


Yes, That's A Good Point. (0.00 / 0)
But you know what a slave I am to overdetermination.  So I'll only say that it's part of the reason.

It's also the case that conservatives just don't believe in playing fair.  After all, they are better than anyone else.  They are God's annointed, or whatever their pet excuse is.  And so whatever they do is cool.  And liberals believe in fair play, even when dealing with sociopaths.

So, those are at least two good explanations.  I'm sure there are at least as many more, if not twice that.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Another explaination (4.00 / 1)
might be that the dems that progressive/liberals support are actually largely representing the same interests and they know that they can prevent being held accountable by using scare tactics like proclaiming we can only choose one side of the coin or the other.

[ Parent ]
Please don't say "The" Democrats! (4.00 / 4)
There is no "The Democrats."  There are factions and progressives are gaining.  This is a struggle and it just isn't helpful and is incorrect to apply a mental framing of a monolithic group acting in concert.  It is the lack of acting in concert that is the problem.

--

Seeing The Forest -- Who is our economy FOR, anyway? Twitter: dcjohnson


[ Parent ]
Can't have it both ways... (0.00 / 0)
If problem is "lack of acting in concert", then how can all the problems be due to "factions."

If you believe the lip-service that progressive/liberals get and the total lack of action - that is up to you.

There is much more of a THE in front of the dems than you are willing to acknowledge.  

How they undermine and smack down progressives doesn't matter to me - fact is they consistently do it.


[ Parent ]
Huh? (4.00 / 2)
"If problem is "lack of acting in concert", then how can all the problems be due to "factions."

Did that actually make sense to you?

Yes, the problem is lack of acting in concert due to factions.  Progressives are working to oust a few Dems who are in the pocket of lobbyists.

We just had 56 Democrats strongly supporting progressive health care legislation, and 4 who were paid to block it.

So this stuff about "The Democrats" as some kind of corporatist cabal is pretty clearly an incorrect framing.

--

Seeing The Forest -- Who is our economy FOR, anyway? Twitter: dcjohnson


[ Parent ]
LOL - No Progressive Healthcare (0.00 / 0)
You are way-off base if you think anything like "progressive healthcare" had 56 supporters.

You and I will never agree on this because of what you have framed as "progressive."

Which is exactly why I say DUMP DEMS if you believe in progressive values.  You fail to recognize obama and the party's capitulation to corporate values, but proclaiming it didn't happen doesn't make it so.


[ Parent ]
That's the Repub's messaging, (0.00 / 0)
what you said:
All during this recent period, the GOP have acted like insurgents, as if they needed to wage constant warfare to grab as much political swag before normality was restored and the Establishment Dems regained control.

And this is the point of what this diary is about.

There is a preexisting material (physics) advantage of defending the status quo: It is easier than advancing change that Progressives seek. Plus, conservatives always seem to come out on top because they have effective messaging.

The message conservatives promulgate through their various means is that they are the downtrodden against big government and big spending Democrats.


[ Parent ]
Insurgents Plays Better (4.00 / 1)
I'd make the small point that the GOP positioning themselves as insurgents plays better with the little people (so to speak), that it is more attractive and garners votes better. People like underdogs. It's also another way to mask their true nature as supporters of the corporate status quo and even mask their ambitions as destroyers of the social safety net.

[ Parent ]
It's even easier for them (4.00 / 1)
when the obama admin and dem leadership has established themselves as supporters of the corporate status quo.

We probably all agree here that the repugs use fear, intimidation, and outright lies to "win" elections (or make them close enough to steal at the ballot boxes).

But eventually we will have to address the fact that obama's "yes we can" and "change" campaigns were shams too.

If this disenfranchises voters and allows the repugs to position themselves as you say - we need to be holding dems accountable for that.

And doing so by supporting dem candidates ain't gonna get the job done.


[ Parent ]
No, you're doing just the thing that sets Progressives back (4.00 / 2)
The Obama administration could have been drawn better, but it wasn't. This is an important point, but too little too late.

The message of this post is to Let Obama and his admin go. Instead, let's move on with Progressive ideals of governing. But let let them know through various media what we want them to do.


[ Parent ]
We're Almost There... (4.00 / 2)
Thanks, Paul, for this post. I feel like my dream (!) of Open Left and other progressive community sites pulling together to define specific messages and actions is coming true. And not for just one election but to change the whole political debate in this country, changing what is possible politically. Starting first with heavy doses of reality and lots of debate back and forth. This is a terrific contribution.

For example, while RapsodiaStellare is correct that marketers have lots of power, it's also true the the great unwashed have equal power, perhaps more, to crowd source alternative messages and actions and to get their message out more cheaply and possibly to greater effect, starting with the internet.

So when do we get to bullet points and sharing ideas for action? Some day I'd love to see people write about how we might reform campaign finance reform in ways that both neutralize the opposition (perhaps by showing people how corrupt DC really is) and meet constitutional standards for free speech. But ideas for action around messaging, taking over state Democratic parties, and the like would also be a great follow on to this discussion.


Economic boycotts (4.00 / 1)
are the only way any meaningful change has happened in our nation - long history actually, but now glossed over.  In fact, the idea of using the bloggosphere for this largely gets shouted down.

The "superblogs" proclaim it's not a "netroot" thing.  Perhaps sites like this will eventually see that those advocating for progressive change need to do more than pound their keyboards, send money to dems, and vote for the same sorry ol' party.

The votes that actually get counted are the dollars we spend - being careful whom we open our wallets up for, coordinating that action, and letting the world know the progress we make impacting the bottom line of the corpocracy/military-industrial-media complex will do more for progressive/liberal causes than any debate about repugs or dems.


[ Parent ]
The path to true change (4.00 / 1)
is not paved with grand unsubstantiated generalizations like this:

Economic boycotts are the only way any meaningful change has happened in our nation


Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.

[ Parent ]
If you don't know American history (2.00 / 2)
don't blame me.  Wouldn't have thought that one needs links.  I am not going to provide them to you because you obviously are not interested in the truth anyways.

Just grandiose statements that show your ignorance about civil rights and labor movements.


[ Parent ]
I didn't ask you to provide me anything (4.00 / 1)
You confuse me thinking you are saying something foolish and one dimensional with me asking for your guidance.  Your thinking has all the subtlety of a mack truck.

Economic boycotts are useful in certain circumstances for certain things. No strategy works at all times for all purposes.

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.


[ Parent ]
It is all that will work here (2.00 / 2)
Talk about grandiose statements - like implying economic action wouldn't work here...

And all with no linky?

Sounds like a grand, unsubstantiated generalization to me.


[ Parent ]
I implied no such thing (4.00 / 1)
Nor do I believe it, as my last comment stated.

Read more carefully.

You said this:

Economic boycotts are the only way any meaningful change has happened in our nation

I disputed this - because it is not the only way. Which does not imply that it is not a way, or even not an important way.

That should be clear from this, which I said:

Economic boycotts are useful in certain circumstances for certain things.

Not a very grand generalization.

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.


[ Parent ]
Your too much (2.00 / 2)
keep backing away and repeating your grand generalizations.

[ Parent ]
Not sure you know what generalization means (nt) (4.00 / 1)


Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.

[ Parent ]
i seem to recall reading (4.00 / 1)
about something called a Civil War? pretty sure that wasn't an economic boycott.

not everything worth doing is profitable. not everything profitable is worth doing.

[ Parent ]
agreed, mostly (0.00 / 0)
Don't believe economic boycotts are the "only" way, but they were successfull. So successfull that the secondary boycott (do not patronize) was made illegal for unions. They were useing them to pressure primary targets of strikes by members refusing to buy from any company doing business with the primary target.

I have long thought that a real consumers union could enable the next "concerted action" that would be effective in the economic arena, outside politics.... Do Not Patronize!

If we all stopped buying at say, EXON but still bought the necessary supply from a competitor, even the GIANT corp. would see things our way.

This is a logical, obtainable goal for our organizing efforts. Highly visable, easily complied with, and very effective.

Government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob..... FDR


[ Parent ]
I'm Boycotting The 2010 Election (0.00 / 0)
Who's with me?

I am totally in favor of health care reform.
I am diametrically opposed to health insurance reform.


At least 40 percent of dems (4.00 / 2)


[ Parent ]
I'm not. (4.00 / 2)
From a moral standpoint, you'd have to have a few Constitutional Amendments proposed to each of the 50 states before you could say that that "the system" failed.

At this point, activists have failed because they put the political cart before the noosphereic horse.

Now they want to take their ball and go home?

Bullshit.


[ Parent ]
They Run Over You, Because You Let Them! (0.00 / 0)
Bullshit is right.
In diplomacy there are carrots and there are sticks. You don't give them a carrot for doing the opposite of what they said they were going to do. It is stick time!

Your attempt to shift the blame to activists, who have no votes in Congress, who do the heavy lifting for the campaigns, who are not paid for their activism...........(I hope you see where this is going) You and the democratic politicians may make empty threats, but I don't.

I am totally in favor of health care reform.
I am diametrically opposed to health insurance reform.


[ Parent ]
The Republicans Don't Care.... (0.00 / 0)
The GOP enjoys a tactical advantage when it comes to legislation because of the fact that they don't give a shit about policy outcomes.  The healthcare bill is a perfect example; if the whole bill blows up and dies, they won't care in the least.  Meanwhile, progressives are trying desperately to salvage the bill in the hopes that it will do some good for some people.  We're in the position of negotiating with a suicide bomber-- their utter disregard for consequences makes it very difficult to strike a good faith bargain.  I don't have an answer for this dilemma...

The solution is to accept the risk of failure (4.00 / 1)
as a part of negotiation rather than pre-deciding you must have a deal. You are going to help more people by not negotiating with terrorist as a rule of thumb than you will by negotiating with them.  

[ Parent ]
So, for example ... (0.00 / 0)
a union on strike for two months must "accept the risk of failure" that is inherent in staying out longer rather than accept a compromise somewhere between what they originally walked out the door with, and what they were demanding, by no means secure in the knowledge that its picket lines will hold, rather than "knuckle under" to a company all agree to be a bunch of rapacious bastards?  It's all a question of mind-set?  Really?

bruhrabbit, this may work in your world, and I'm happy for you, but there are plenty of other worlds where it just isn't so cut and dried.  May all of us, only, ever have to negotiate from a position of strength!

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
You are not in that situation (0.00 / 0)
The fact you think you are perfectly illustrates your inability to assess the situation or the risks involved. Between that and your hyperbole over my position. I don't take your responses seriously anymore.  

[ Parent ]
Well, it was you who said (0.00 / 0)
we can afford to wait for ten or fifteen years until this crop of politicians is no longer around.  That's a really astounding prescription, and I think it says a lot about where you're coming from.  You've said you have a business in which you frequently negotiation multi-million dollar contracts.  You must be awfully well paid.  

How can you be so sure that your estimate of the situation corresponds with those of Americans less fortunate than yourself.

Please elaborate on your idea of waiting 10 or 15 years.  What is your plan?  How do you plan to insure that the next crop is better than this one?

If I am to be faulted for analogizing MY experiences to the present, maybe you might be similarly faulted?  I see very little connection between the type of negotiating you say you do and the type that is going on here.

I'm still waiting for your magic formula on negotiating from a position of weakness.  How do lines in the sand work then?

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Yes (0.00 / 0)
it says I don't trust any of yo to get the job done.  My plan is I don't trust you, and would rather take the chance that newer people may be better at the job.  

[ Parent ]
Thanks for your honesty (0.00 / 0)
Your plan is as dumb as a stump, but you don't shrink from it,  I'll have to give you that.

If it never enters your mind that you actually need what the other side has to offer in a negotiation, you can certainly afford to take such a cavalier attitude.  As I said in the other thread, it must be great to be in that position, but I really don't think your situation is comparable to the situation the country faces now and I'm not sure why you're so sure of its relevance.

Whereas I am watching this situation, the pushes, the pulls, the emotions tugging either way, and it's like I'm back in 1981 all over again.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Thank you Paul (4.00 / 1)
for another fine weekend.

Progressives should adopt the James Cameron school of politics (0.00 / 0)
Make a quality product and the quality itself will sell the ideas.

As in Avatar.


I would point out here that an enormously significant factor in marketing's (4.00 / 4)
ability to be so successful is itself the societal insecurity that progressives try to address. You can't really pat yourself on the back about your ability to sway people without acknowledging the root emotional vulnerabilities that allow them to be just that manipulable- i.e. the devolution of community, the lack of a social safety net, and the media-wide capitalist brainwashing endemic to the US. There's a vicious circle here that marketers are able to tap into here, but it ain't actually due to their own incomparable genius. So with that in mind, organizing should be understood to also be, at least in part, it's own end goal, an emotionally connective tissue that strives. Obviously the netroots community-based ACT Blue and Move On (with its house parties, its group calls, etc.)show that this is all entirely possible. My point here being, that organizing must not be seen as merely a logistical matter, but also an emotional one.  

Great point (4.00 / 1)
I teach my kids that advertising works by making you feel shitty and insecure. Progressives should focus on positive messages, as they often do, rather than selfish or negative messages, as much as those might work.

To arnie's point above, where we spend our dollars also counts. But you can't know where to spend if you don't know what companies are doing. And some time you have no choice or limited choice, as with phone companies and insurance.


[ Parent ]
Thats why need to target (0.00 / 0)
and use netroots to communicate.  It is not hard to find which corporations are largely underwriting wingnuts and blue dogs.

Each and every one would not need to be boycotted concurrently, but there would have to be a robust dialog about what was being boycotted any given week so that people know the impact of their actions.

And the major media companies would have to be consistently boycotted, along with the sponsors of faux news, beck, limbaugh, etc...


[ Parent ]
Let's learn advertising (4.00 / 1)
Since the techniques of corporate persuasion are so effective, let's a) learn them ourselves, and b) try to get knowledge of them as widely dispersed as possible, so people can see through what is being done. One thing that TINS does not address is that, I think, people have over time become more resistant to advertising from overexposure, which leads it to become more subtle and frequently ironic. It's an arms race.

We saw a lot of grassroots and entertainment industry use of the media during the Obama campaign. We can do it. We just have to put our focus into issues and independent institutions, rather than politicians and parties.  


Advertising = Lying. (0.00 / 0)
When the Republicans come out on top, no matter how insignificant the fight, the Republican pundits come out to uniformly promote the victory and the strength of the party.

There may be a few grumblers on messageboards, but Kristol and Will and Krauthammer will pound the message, and more often than not, Limbaugh and Hannity and Coulter will follow.

Who is proclaiming Obama's victory on his historical health care win?  Who is out suggesting that the stimulus was the salvation of the economy, and that Obama really is the new FDR?  

Nobody.  

That, to me, is a difference in advertising strategy.  


[ Parent ]
no, wrong (4.00 / 1)
good advertising isn't about lying.  It's about pushing the right and most effective buttons, rather than the wrong and least effective ones.  Drew Westen talks about this a lot in his book.  He gives an example of advertising for an anti-pollution candidate in the South by having a hunter/fisherman with his son, pulling a diseased fish out of a polluted stream, talking about how the male fish have ovaries, and looking disgusted.

Play to your strengths, and push the emotional buttons that matter.

This is going to seem really self-promotional, but I swear I'm only bringing it up to prove a point. In another example, my brother and I co-produced and co-wrote an ad on Prop 8 in CA with all volunteer help:

See it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

The Courage Campaign aired it in selective areas on election day, and the production values weren't great.  Real money could have done a better job.  But it's the sort of button-pushing storytelling that can push the needle.

Democratic ads tend to appeal to the rational brain, not the emotional one.


[ Parent ]
Self-Promote All You Want! (0.00 / 0)
I want us to be good at this stuff.

My only beef with your post was over-valuing your field as a whole in isolation.  That's not to say it's not important.  Just my omnipresent over-determination mindset insistent on looking at multiple factors.

But precisely because I'm an over-determinist, and because this is such a weakness on the left, we need all the self-promotion of what actually works that we can get!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Backbone (0.00 / 0)
The lack of backbone in Democratic leadership isn't just a weakness of personality, a bad strategy, or corporate patronage, but the politics of division.

The Republicans divide the Democrats all the time: on abortion, on gun control, on the environment.  The Democrats are a diverse coalition, with divergent interests and prejudices. Immigrants are often social conservatives.  Union members don't always like immigrants.  Workers in polluting industries don't always support environmental regulation.  

This seems far less the case with the Republicans, which is made up of the wealthy and social conservatives.  Normally, the system works for them, with the corporate conservatives dominating the agenda, and the social conservatives frequently frustrated but with no where to go.  After the dramatic setbacks of the past year, there is open war in the conservative movement, but no clear way to pick up these voters.  

The base seldom wins, in either party.  It just seems that way when you are a member of the base on the losing side.


It is about the politics of division (0.00 / 0)
but there is nothing inevitable about that based on the Democrats' constituencies.  You capture it right here: "The Republicans divide the Democrats all the time."  That is something that Republicans do, not something Democrats are.

There are ways for Democrats to do the same, but they choose not to. One example - Don't Ask Don't Tell. It's a policy that enjoys broad support.  Dems could have pushed it, and attacked Republicans who opposed it as threatening national security and hurting the troops.  This could have split national security conservatives from social conservatives.  Instead, the WH and Senate have slow walked the issue, leading to disillusionment and frustration among core supporters.

Democrats could also have made serious financial reform a top priority, making populist appeals that could have helped sow discord between the corporate and populist wings of the conservative movement, even if it would not pick up any more voters (that too, would have helped with the base and independents - and might have depressed some of the energy that is fueling the conservative movement right now.)  

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.


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