Health care state of play, Senate Vote Eve edition

by: Chris Bowers

Wed Dec 23, 2009 at 21:00


Here is what is happening on the health care fight:

  • The Senate voted to end debate on the health care bill today, by a vote of 60-39.  The Senator who did not vote was Jim Bunning of Kentucky.  If you are confused by the roll call vote I link, that is because the health care bill was attached to a piece of legislation on homeowners.

  • The final vote will be Thursday (tomorrow) morning at 7 a.m. eastern, one hour earlier than previously expected.  While all 60 members of the Democratic Senate caucus voted for cloture (to end debate), expect at least Roland Burris to vote against final passage, which only requires 51 votes.  Burris will probably be joined by a couple of right-wing Democrats, too.

  • Representative Louise Slaughter says "kill the bill." Or does she? (emphasis mine):

    Now don't get me wrong; the current House and Senate bills are a significant improvement over the status quo. Given the hard path to reform and the political realities of next year, there is a sizable group within Congress that wants to simply cut any deal that works and call it a success. Many previous efforts have failed, and the path to reform is littered with unsuccessful efforts championed by Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Harry Truman and Bill Clinton.

    Supporters of the weak Senate bill say "just pass it -- any bill is better than no bill."

    I strongly disagree -- a conference report is unlikely to sufficiently bridge the gap between these two very different bills.

    This part of Slaughter's op-ed is confusing--first she says the Senate bill would be better than the status quo, and then she says that no bill is better than the Senate bill.  Is she calling for defeating the bill, or not?  To clear up the confusion, Greg Sargent called a spokesperson for Representative Slaughter:

    But a spokesperson for Slaughter, Vince Morris, confirms she's not ruling out a vote for the final bill, even if it lacks a public option or other concessions sought by progressives.

    "She's not ruling anything in or out at this point," Morris tells me. "She is hopeful that we can make the bill better in conference."

    Confusing indeed, and the original op-ed could have been better written.  I agree with TomP, who thinks that Slaughter is making noise like this to try and improve the bill in conference.  This is an effort which I wholeheartedly endorse.

  • In addition to the areas of dispute between the House and Senate bills I listed yesterday, another major area of dispute that has opened up in advance of the conference committee is when to start the exchanges: 2013 (as per the House bill, and progressive wishes) or 2014 (as per the Senate bill).  Ben Nelson today said he was skeptical of the exchanges starting in 2013, stating "we'll just have to look at the numbers." A statement about waiting for the CVO score from conservative Democratic Senators has usually been followed with a demand to strip the provision from the bill or else a filibuster will follow.  And those demands from conservative Senators are usually met with Rahm Emanuel showing up on Capitol Hill and telling Harry Reid to cave.

  • Some White House sources are tired of Democrats debating the merits of the health care bill in the press:

    There's no hard evidence they'll be denied that victory and TPMDC sources have been saying all week they are tired of Democrats litigating the merits of health care in the press.

    So much for the desire to have a great debate about the health care in this country.  Also, so much for congratulating progressives on accomplishing something almost unheard of in recent American political media: making the public debate over a major piece of legislation between the left-wing and the center, rather than between the center-right and the extreme right-wing.

  • Just in case you were wondering, even with tomorrow morning's vote, the health care fight will continue for at least another three weeks, and possibly as long as six weeks.  David Waldman breaks down the possibilities in detail.
This is an open thread on the ongoing health care fight, and for the Senate vote in the morning.
Chris Bowers :: Health care state of play, Senate Vote Eve edition

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I just hope they don't get this done tomorrow (0.00 / 0)
I would rather see the obama/rahm and dem leadership take this on on the chin.

A bill that represents bought-and-paid-for corporate interests, delaying what it does until AFTER midterms in 2010 and obama's re-election 2012 is just another empty promise.

They have structured it to escape responsibility for further entrenching big pharma and health-industrical complex monopolies around the country.

We need to make them run on their failures in next cycles, having a chance to hold them accountable for this massive corporate give-away.  Public, almost 3 to 1, wants a meaningful public option.

We could get a better bill that starts solving problems before 2014.

Worst case scenario is obama stuffing mistletoe in his codpiece and prancing around a Christmas tree with a MISSION ACCOMPLISHED start on the top, falsely declaring himself to be santa clause delivering a historical bag of cookies (NOT!)


Yeah, among the best writers on the net, (0.00 / 0)
both in content and skill, both in heart and smarts, I am grateful, not just for the enjoyment and learning I get, but the step by step organizing that accompanies it.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Bernie Sanders should vote NO too (0.00 / 0)
Aside from the wars, this is the signature progressive issue. Yet the bill is not progressive. It is a tax on worker benefits to subsidize junk insurance for lower-income people. It is a bailout rather than a reform of our bloated health care industry. Single payer supporters were arrested. Public option supporters were screwed. The progressive elements in the bill are too few and far between to justify progressives' stamp of approval.

Lower people paying for junk insurance (0.00 / 0)
actually subsidizes the very good coverage that the wealthy get.  So it is much worse than "not progressive" - it is regressive.

I just hope we can find a way to carry this message.


[ Parent ]
Sanders will probably vote yes (4.00 / 4)
Given that he won a significant amount of funding for public health care (not insurance--but care) in the bill, Sanders will probably vote yes.

Sanders played the game well, and got something very good in return.


[ Parent ]
Exactly, Bernie continues to be a model for us all. (0.00 / 0)
I am humbled by Bernie Sanders.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
I find it depressing (4.00 / 5)
that at Daily Kos hundreds of people are cheering on diarists who make Jane Hamsher and FireDogLake enemy number one. AHIP and PhRMA are laughing their heads off.

Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.

Agree (0.00 / 0)
I don't spend much time there, though the threads I have seen and posts by kos seem to agree with much of FDL even if they don't agree with the way she carries the message (can be very shrill, in-your-face, and "with us or against us".

I usually only scan the frontpage, read few of those threads, and never go through other diaries.  Do you think the majority would flame killing the bill?  


[ Parent ]
The problem with Jane... (4.00 / 2)
...is that now she's joining forces with the teabaggers and appearing on Fox News.  It's one thing to kill the bill 'cos it's too weak, but legitimizing a radical fringe by joining forces with them is a bridge too far for me.

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!


[ Parent ]
There are other takes on this (4.00 / 3)
Teabaggers are fragmenting repugs which will make a progressive split from dem more successful.

Everyone knows that these 2 parties have little in common and huge differences in ideology.

Do you forget - 3 out of 4 Americans support a meaningful public option.  Even majority of repugs do.

There is nothing to lose by  killing this bill with teabaggers (for different reasons).  Why not collaborate with people that will work towards same goal.

The teabaggers cannot win elections on their platform, but progressives could win on public option - majority of Americans support it.


[ Parent ]
The bill has public options (4.00 / 3)
15 million, low-income, uninsured Americans will receive insurance on Medicaid--a public insurance option--from this bill.

The teabaggers would prefer zero. There is also this:

The House bill provides $14 billion in funding for the federal health centers and service corps. Sanders says that indications from the White House and Democratic leadership are that there is a "good chance" the final bill will do the same. That would translate to health centers in 10,000 more communities throughout America within 5 years, and increase the number of people served by over 100 percent, to 45 million. It would also create 20,000 new primary care practitioners, dentists, nurses and other healthcare professionals. Sanders emphasizes a George Washington University study that shows the $14 billion expenditure would save money--$23 billion in Medicaid alone--"because you're keeping people out of the hospital and out of the emergency room. Now if this is not a win-win-win situation, I don't know what is," he says.

Another 25 million people getting health care from a public option in this bill--thanks to Bernie Sanders.  That's a lot more than even the robust public option would have done.

Some people say progressives don't know how to negotiate. The results Bernie Sanders has achieved say otherwise.


[ Parent ]
Don't be dishonest here (4.00 / 1)
You know fully well that NO PROGRESSIVES ARE SAYING KILL THE BILL AND THEN FORGET ABOUT HEALTHCARE

Please save the slight of hand for other topics - this is about holding those that sold meaningful reform out accountable in 2010 and using leverage (perhaps primary challenge) in 2012 to start over.

We could end up with a REAL reform bill that takes effect BEFORE 2014.

I have yet to see you explain why the lying liars that sold progressives out (team obama was behind undermining public option - won't post link here because you know who has said this and why they are credible) are going to allow anything meaningful when they have 4+ years to undermine it.

AND NO ONE CAN HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE IN 2010 and 2014


[ Parent ]
I think Chris believes what he is saying (0.00 / 0)
since he also made similar points about medicare expansion. My issue with the argument is that I look at on whose back this is going to happen.  

[ Parent ]
The all caps really make your point hit home (4.00 / 4)
Wasn't sure if I agreed with you, until I saw that you started typing in all caps. Now, I agree.

Anyway, call it sleight of hand or whatever you want, I simply want to point out that, in exchange for an opt-out public option that would have covered 3-4 million people with insurance, Bernie Sanders got 10,000 new public health clinics that will cover 25 million people with health care.

He did this by threatening to filibuster. Instead of killing the bill, he got 10,000 new free, public health clinics that will provide health care to 25 million people.  That is on top of 15 million, low-income, uninsured Americans with a public option known as Medicaid.

There are other ways of playing the game instead of just typing in all caps all the time. I think Bernie Sanders demonstrated that.

I don't even really have a problem with what Jane Hamsher is doing in general, although I think joining with Grover Norquist misses the mark. We need to be making noise from the left about why the bill sucks, so that we can keep getting concessions, ala Bernie Sanders, in return. Joining with Norquist doesn't help that effort.


[ Parent ]
Glenn Greenwald (4.00 / 1)
makes a good point however that the problem with left based or Democratic based alignment (and I would add personality based alignment) is that there are opportunities for real reform where brief alliances can be found. Why would it matter which form you use so long as it accomplishes long term reforms?

[ Parent ]
ROTFLMAO... (0.00 / 0)
The caps comment nearly made me pee myself, I laughed so hard.

[ Parent ]
SNARK DOESN'T COVER YOUR LIES (0.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
Feel free to post somewhere else. (0.00 / 0)
And read other posts, I wouldnt mind at all.


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
The good news is (0.00 / 0)
there are thoughtful threads here.  Not everyone has a swelled head and become so self-absorbed that they think they are blog gods (while increasingly becoming irrelevant).

[ Parent ]
Yes you are correct. And that is good news indeed. (0.00 / 0)


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
I don't endorse every tactic (4.00 / 1)
such as an alliance with Grover Norquist, but there is a deliberate diversionary effort going on at Daily Kos now, with the goal of making Jane Hamsher the enemy of reform because of her "unholy alliances." Meanwhile, Obama's unholy alliances with the drug and insurance companies get a pass.  

Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.

[ Parent ]
And some here do the same (0.00 / 0)
In the case of one, protecting his/her position as an "expert" and shaping the dialog with disingenuous, misleading, or outright deceptive posts is more important than the actual dialog.

And yet these same folks will wring their hands and deride that progressives (which includes them) don't have any power nor any choices about that situation than to continue to read the same dishonest "analysis" and cheer merrily along in agreement.


[ Parent ]
Who on the left besides Jane Hamsher (0.00 / 0)
is willing to take on Rahm Emmanuel?  If there were a left coalition ready to go after the little big man, she'd likely work with them instead.

Since there isn't, she's working with Norquist.

Strange bedfellows indeed.  But these are strange times indeed and you take the support you can get.


[ Parent ]
Joining with Norquist on anything (0.00 / 0)
does nothing but destroy one's credibility.  It is a significant mistake, and one I hope, given her intelligence, she will see in the end.

Who will mention this effort first: Beck or Rush?


[ Parent ]
er... (0.00 / 0)
This is getting too off-topic, I know, but:

Left-Right Coalition Calls for an Audit of the Federal Reserve Before Bernanke is Reappointed as Chair

Check out who signed that.

Probably the lesson is that going solo as the left part of a left-right action like the Fannie/Freddie bailout leaves you too exposed. That's not snark, I think getting more people involved would have helped keep the focus a bit more on the what and not on the who.

not everything worth doing is profitable. not everything profitable is worth doing.


[ Parent ]
I think it is pointless at this stage to argue (4.00 / 2)
No one from what I can see is listening. I think about the impact, for example, in NYC where I live where the median house hold income is around 46 k. What will those people do when their rents keep going up, they must pay student loan bills and now are forced to buy every increasing premiums with little relief. Why? The unspoken aspect of this bill is how it penalizes urban professionals.

[ Parent ]
You are clearly listening (4.00 / 1)
You write over 100 comments a week on Open Left. Almost every discussion you engage gets pushed to the far right margins, causing all other discussions in the comments to be hard to read. Because, I suppose, it is important to you that you are the only voice in a room that gets heard.

I don't really know where you find the time to spend so much time here at Open Left, especially since you seem to hate the place so much. No one else on Open Left writes more comments than you do--literally, no one else, not even me--and you hate it here. From what I can tell, you think I have a deeply flawed character, filled with cowardice, confusion, and a general lack of emotional control.  Plus a lot of stupidity.

Just in case you were wondering, only about 7-8% of the roughly 13,000 people who read this site a day even look at the comments on Open Left. If you want to troll around about the character and intellectual deficiencies of every progressive who isn't you, there are many more visible places to do it.


[ Parent ]
My comment was not about this site in particular (0.00 / 0)
It was about generally what is happening in DC and where things are at regarding the bill. It was my personal feeling about where the debate is. No one is listening, and they want to have it done soon. If for no other reason than to probably move on to jobs issues.

It sounded like today Rep. Slaughter was making sure to leave enough room so things could be done soon.  I am not even sure how you decided that my comment was solely  or even mostly about Open Left since you are not the final voice on the bill.

You also not the only writer here I read. Some times I am one of the lurkers. Sirota and Paul for example.  Sometimes you write things I do agree with. I only comment if a) I have a point about which i disagree for which I am really passionate in my disagreement or b) I be don't disagree and I think I have something to add such as the discussion I had on China.

By the way, I have not been on this site in months until a few weeks ago in terms of posting. I was one of lurkers. Disagreement is not hate. The two sites I frequented while working on my business were Daily Kos and Mydd.com. Mostly writing diaries on health, economic and gay issues while working on my research.



[ Parent ]
If it helps... (0.00 / 0)
I took your above comment different than Chris did and rated accordingly.  Its not much, but hey.

[ Parent ]
yeah, I went back to re-read to make sure I did not (0.00 / 0)
accidently attach my statement to the wrong comment. i've done that in the past since  I tend to write these things fast. So it could have been my mistake. But,  at this point, I am totally confused how my response to arnie can be seen as an attack on open left or concern people who read it.  

[ Parent ]
... (4.00 / 1)
I'd still buy you a beer you right wing, left wing, centrist, socialist, facist, Democratic, Republican (and any other political affiliations you can think of) SOB ;-)

I think that covers most of the things I have seen you called on here LOL.    

Seriously though, keep up the good job.


[ Parent ]
I don't understand your response (0.00 / 0)
if you don't agree that this bill will be punitive to urban professionals, you should make your case as to why it's not.  There's no good reason to have such a mean spirited response to a reasonable concern.



[ Parent ]
Par for the course - this is what he does daily (0.00 / 0)
Then he will follow that commentator through the threads, posting more nastiness and misrepresenting content of posts to make it appear he has "one-upped" them, which is obviously untrue to anyone that reads the thread.

Some use the volume of their verbage and their subject line to create the illusion to casual scrollers that they have "caught" someone in an irrefutable contradiction.

This guy never actually does, but uses short bursts of text to deceive that he has.


[ Parent ]
All the more so given that (4.00 / 6)
some of these anti-FDL/Jane "bloggers" are planted shills (not all are, of course). They're no doubt laughing at how many "progressives" are falling for it.

I just posted a comment on one of these to the effect that if making common cause with the likes of Norquist (admitedly a major asshole who's done much damage to the country) is evil incarnate, then what does that make Obama's being in bed with the likes of Rubin and PhRMA? (To which the predictable response was that these can't be compared, and to which I replied true--these are far worse.) Ah, self-denial. How sad.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Their arguments are rarely consistent (0.00 / 0)
Senator Obama made several deals including as I remember with Senator Coburn to co-sponsor a bill, did he not? Are they seriously arguing that when interests align that politicians and interest groups should never work together. But, these are the same people who will in one breath denounce certain journalistic techniques like unnamed sources, but as Meteor Blades wrote support them when it is convenient. I honestly don't know if they are paid shills or not. I suspect they are given the repetition of talking points, but I don't have proof, and thus figure it must just be a group of hard core supporters who congregate elsewhere before posting at the site.  

[ Parent ]
Serious Question... (0.00 / 0)
I know we have all made the shill accusation at one time or another... how do you KNOW they are shills?   Or is it just suspicions?  I ask this seriously and in no way judgemental... god knows I've done it.

[ Parent ]
Because this is how sleazy politicians operate (0.00 / 0)
And Obama has proven to be right down there with the worst of them. I have no proof, I'll admit. But if it looks like shit and smells like shit, then it probably is shit.

Also, Obama clearly HATES to lose, and there's obviously a lot at stake for him and his backers here, so I can't imagine that they wouldn't leave ANY stone unturned, and this is a big one.

None of which is proof, but I'd put good money on it, if there was a way to know for sure.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
It is pretty much to be expected (4.00 / 1)
Daily Kos is now divided between the hardcore fanboys and those seeking to argue politics and policy on both sides of any given issue.

The fanboys dominate half the time, and the policy and politics people dominate the other half. The front page since the department of Dana Houle is considerably better in presenting both pro and con.

With the fan boys, it is an issue that Greenwald  and Meteor Blades identified regarding talking out of both sides of one's mouth. Supporging a policy or person when the president does and attacking them when they think it is what the president believes. Hamsher is "evil" b/c she's the next Nader as one poster put it. Right now, they are attacking her because she has the temerity to focus on interest aligned politics regarding rather than personality, Democratic or ideological aligned politics.

However, it is okay to be for releasing the torture photos when the WH was for it, and against it when the WH was against it. Let me give you a practical example: yesterday when Obama told a fib about his not supporting the public option, there were all these fanboys denouncing the diaries on the subject as inaccurate because Obama never "campaigned" on the PO. Someone linked to a diary several weeks before recommended by several of those who denounced the diaries from yesterday.

In the prior diary, the same people were touting that Obama had always supported the PO. One of the reasons I am souring on blogs is that while at one point you could have these flame wars- they were sincerely felt disagreements. Now, most of the spin to me seems a) intellectually dishonest and b) self serving rather than for a common cause. There is also the sense that I get that I am actually often talking to paid shills, people with the strategy of simply derailing dissent or people with a set of talking points.

My advice is to focus on those individuals regardless of which side they are on who are going to speak honestly about the issues.  


[ Parent ]
I agree about the split (0.00 / 0)
And about vastly preferring to discuss issues with people who have substantive and fact-based opinions on them even if they are the exact opposite of mine, than wasting time arguing with plants, shills, trolls and fanbots who engage in dishonesty and character assassination. There have always been the latter type on DKos, but since Obama won the election they've had a disproportionate presence there, and I'm not sure why they're tolerated since they obviously operate in self-recommending swarms and really hurt the quality of discussions there, in terms of issues and civility.

And while I also agree that it's best to just ignore them and focus on the substantive members, I have the sort of personality that makes it hard to not take the bait.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
... (4.00 / 1)
I agree that the DKOS diaries overstep, but then again this is very contentious and has split progressives on the best possible outcome.  Neither side is happy with the bill and really the strategy seems to be dividing us.    I mean you have to assume people are going to hammer her simply for passionately taking a side.     Hell, look at the comments sections over the last week and a half on here.   God, I can only imagine the fist fights that would have broken out by now if we were all actually in a room together.    

That being said, I agree with Ezra's rebuttal on her 10 points to kill healthcare... although a commenter on the WP page pointed out that Jane's article is about this bill vs the perfect bill whereas Ezra writes about this bill vs the Status quo, ultimately concluding that the two are talking past each other.   The commenter had a fair point on that one.  

Think back to the bitterness of the primary battles (which make this look like a civil debate)...  things will start to settle down once a decision is made, either way for all but a few d-bags on here.


[ Parent ]
I think it's worse than the primary debates (4.00 / 1)
I engaged in those, as well as the "Impeach Bush Now!" debates (and others), and this is worse IMO, because it's so much more personal and vicious, and so much less substantive. And I was one of Obama's defenders against Hillary and Edwards supporters, which makes this even more bizarre to me. Perhaps I'm suffering from selective memory and those were just as bad, but it's simply nauseating how many comments from his worshippers basically amount to "He's smarter than you and you just hate him, you teabagger!". They sound like rebellious and misunderstood 15 year olds who think that it's them and their cool leader vs. the world. My boyfriend's back and you're gonna be in trouble...

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
they were equally bad (4.00 / 1)
Just the other day askew accused me of having a professional relationship with Jane Hamsher or FDL (which I do not have), just because I didn't support the stampede to make her the enemy. Kind of like the way askew used to accuse me of being a Hillary shill because I criticized Obama (even though I spent many hours urging Iowans not to caucus for Hillary).

Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.

[ Parent ]
I understand (0.00 / 0)
that you're also a pro-Buchanan Naderite who once worked for David Duke. Just like Kos, Greenwald and myself. After all, that does explain a lot, no?

;-)

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
agreed (0.00 / 0)
as long as the left is divided, we will waste our energy on demonizing Jane and others.  

[ Parent ]
I gave money to FDLs campaigns but (0.00 / 0)
I'm not doing so now.  I don't believe killing the bill is a viable strategy at this point.

At the same time, I won't slam Ms. Hamsher for trying to make common cause with some elements of the the teabag movement - yet.  There are paths she could choose along that direction that would bring me into full-throated opposition, but she hasn't done so yet.  If we are serious about building populist opposition to the Wall St. consensus, we are going to have to look outside the Democratic party as well as inside it.  If such efforts are successful in isolating a sliver of former teabaggers who are not Ayn Randians or racists then it may prove worthwhile.  Or it may not.  I think of it as an experiment.

And that experiment goes to the heart of my disagreement with many here.

Many seem to think that we are weak because we are poor negotiators.

I think that we are poor negotiators because we are weak.

That means we have to get stronger, somehow.  Experiments like Hamsher's may or may not be part of the answer.  But I think her "sellout" rhetoric can be overplayed.  As I've said before, it's simply amazing how readily we move someone to the sellout column the minute they announce against killing the bill.  

I think we all know approximately where this Health Care Bill is going to land.  There's little more we can accomplish in this battle.  Our accompishments should not be overlooked.  As Dr. Dean (haven't heard anyone call him a sellout yet) said, the bill they passed is better than it was last week.  We should take indirect credit for that even though the particular improvments were not the ones we were pushing for.  Our pressure nonetheless was responsible.

La lutte continue.  Our thoughts need to shift to the next battle.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Good analysis here (0.00 / 0)
Obama & Democrats Give Americans a Healthcare Con Job for Christmas

Obama & Democrats Give Americans a Healthcare Con Job for Christmas  

Corporate Democrats and the Obama Administration stand ready to deliver a gift to Americans on behalf of the pharmaceutical companies and private insurance industry in America: health reform.

Cloaked in the spirit of the holiday season, Americans will let politicians shove this right under their Christmas tree somewhere between little Timmy's Zhu Zhu Pets and daddy's new GPS navigator, which many Americans probably managed to barely squeeze onto their Visa Mastercard.

In the final moments before passage, Americans will whine about how Republicans are Scrooges and do not understand the meaning of Christmas and they should pass this bill for the poor instead of always giving to the rich. And, some Americans will sympathize with Democrats who have to be in the Senate on Christmas Eve and cannot be with their families because Republicans continue to obstruct passage of health reform.



[ Parent ]
I read Slaughter's op-ed (4.00 / 1)
as saying that there are three basic options now vis a vis the senate bill:

1 - Pass it as is--it's ok as is and can't be improved
2 - Improve it in conference
3 - Kill it--it can't be improved enough to make it worth passing

She's clearly advocating #2. I doubt that there are many people who seriously advocate #3 (especially given that folks like Sanders and Franken are for it). And very few real progressives are advocating #1. Most, like Slaughter, are advocating #2.

Improve it in conference. That's what most "kill the bill" advocates were pushing for.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


Slaughter's mistake... (4.00 / 2)
Slaughter's mistake was having her people clarify that she is not saying she WON'T vote for it without a PO.    From a pure negotiation point, if the other side knows you won't walk away from the table, its easy to win or even steam roll that person.   She would have been better off saying she didn't think she could vote for it without a PO and then win concessions like Bernie Sanders did.   There is a lot in the house bill I'm hoping finds it way to the Senate bill... but I hope that the trouble makers are part of the conference committee so we don't get an agreement and then another Joe or Nelson moment.   Fraking 60 votes...    God, I wasn't sold on Filibuster reform before... I sure as hell am now.    

[ Parent ]
She's clearly advocating #2? Ummm, no... (0.00 / 0)
Here's what she says in the CNN piece:

Supporters of the weak Senate bill say "just pass it -- any bill is better than no bill."

I strongly disagree -- a conference report is unlikely to sufficiently bridge the gap between these two very different bills.

It's time that we draw the line on this weak bill and ask the Senate to go back to the drawing board. The American people deserve at least that. (emphasis added)

That is the direct opposite of #2.

She's incoherent and her only direct demand is something that is simply not going to happen -- that the Senate scrap its bill start over. Simply embarrassing...

Self-refuting Christine O'Donnell is proof monkeys are still evolving into humans


[ Parent ]
Embarrassing like a fox! (0.00 / 0)
She's at least flexing the muscles a bit on the progressive side before the conference. Maybe not in the most graceful manner, but hardly anyone else is taking on the job. It's better than nothing.

[ Parent ]
Soft bigotry of low expectations (0.00 / 0)
No coherent strategic vision or disciplined message. It's not better than nothing. It's embarrassing and demoralizing. I expect more from our leaders. If this is the best they have to offer...

Self-refuting Christine O'Donnell is proof monkeys are still evolving into humans

[ Parent ]
Not some back bencher (0.00 / 0)
Also, just to be clear, Slaughter is the chair of the Rules committee, which puts her very high up in the leadership ranks.  This is simply unacceptable behavior from someone in that position. We should expect and demand better.

Self-refuting Christine O'Donnell is proof monkeys are still evolving into humans

[ Parent ]
Technically, you may be right (4.00 / 1)
But I think that in her own convuluted way she's still advocating #2, even if it requires that the senate rejigger its version of the bill (which makes no sense from what I know of parliamentary procedure, but if she thinks that's what needs to happen, then that's close enough for me). I.e. she appears to believe that the bill needs to be improved before she can vote for it, even if she's confused about how exactly that's going to happen.

And if her confusion/cluelessness is indicative of the mindset of house progressives, then one, that explains a LOT, and two, we're screwed, still stuck in a situation in which conservative might be assholes but they get things passed, and liberals might be good people but they're totally useless and way out of their league. This is Keystone Kops stuff.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
She's the Chair... (0.00 / 0)
...of the fucking Rules Committee and high up in the leadership. And at best she's "confused" about procedure.

Pause a moment and let that sink in...

Self-refuting Christine O'Donnell is proof monkeys are still evolving into humans


[ Parent ]
No need to pause (0.00 / 0)
I've never been much impressed with the intellectual level of your typical politician. Ever heard Reyes or Gohmert pontificate? Makes you want to smack them. Reaching a leadership position is a matter of being a team player, getting things done, and waiting your turn. It is not a matter of being smart. Not that there aren't some smart ones, like Franken or Sanders or Weiner (damn I like being a Jew sometimes), but they're the exception.

I vote for confused, and thus, in her own confused way, #2.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Weiner (4.00 / 1)
He's another strategic genius...

We are so outgunned...

Self-refuting Christine O'Donnell is proof monkeys are still evolving into humans


[ Parent ]
Leaderless - Woolsey embarrasses herself on Countdown (4.00 / 1)
Here's our progressive caucus co-chair on a friendly media outlet simply unable to articulate any coherent position on the public option or any other issue she's asked about, let alone formulate and advance a pre-mediated progressive message regarding progressive agenda items in the upcoming conference.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30...

We are so outgunned...

Self-refuting Christine O'Donnell is proof monkeys are still evolving into humans


Agreed (4.00 / 1)
Woolsey's another nice, well-meaning liberal who's just way out of her league. They're bringing dreamcatchers to a gunfight.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
She was alright (0.00 / 0)
I agree with the criticisms, but at this point, it's over.

[ Parent ]
Passed Senate 60-39 at about 6:30 a.m. (0.00 / 0)
It's over. All hail the corporate oligarchy!

Obama Promised (0.00 / 0)

"President Obama should frankly feel ashamed that he promised Americans a public option, got people to believe real change was possible, and then never truly fought for it - instead, pushing a mandate that he specifically campaigned against."


Its so weird, we demand for months, literally demand for months (0.00 / 0)
That Obama promise us, demand for us, force the Senate and House to provide a PO, then the day the Senate fails in that, we say Obama promised us a PO.

Its effing odd.

Please demand, you arent' promisng --- you promised but didnt give us.

Its the oddest of frames, popular, but odd.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
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