No Dem incumbent will lose a primary by voting for the health care bill

by: Chris Bowers

Wed Dec 30, 2009 at 16:40


Even though I favored passing the gutted Senate health care bill, I am heartened by the noise some progressives are making in opposition to it.  Without such noise, there would be no hope to improve the bill, or much hope of getting better health care legislation in the future.  In keeping with the basic principle of the Overton window, there has to be prominent, public left-wing disagreement with Democratic policy, or else the national political discussion will never move to the left.

The degrees of acceptance of public ideas can be described roughly as:

  • Unthinkable
  • Radical
  • Acceptable
  • Sensible
  • Popular
  • Policy
The Overton Window is a means of visualizing which ideas define that range of acceptance by where they fall in it, and adding new ideas that can push the old ideas towards acceptance merely by making the limits more extreme.

Progressives looking to defeat the bill from the left are currently in either the "acceptable" or "sensible" stage.  While it is pretty amazing that they have even been able to get that far in such a short period of time, they have not moved onto the "popular" stage just yet.  That is why efforts like these are bound to fail, and fail spectacularly:

We also dedicate ourselves to Defeating Progressive Caucus Dems who vote for HCR without a Public Option @keithellison #p2 #fb

Such proclamations are necessary both to continue moving the national political discourse to the left, and in fostering a much needed culture of primary challenges.  However, with only 16% of self-identified Democrats favoring defeating the bill (and many doing so from the right), the beliefs backing up those proclamations still have a long way to go before they become electoral winners:


In the first months of 2010, one of my main projects will be working on primary campaigns against incumbent Blue Dogs and Conservadems.  These campaigns will include, but are not necessarily limited to, Marcy Winograd against Jane Harman (Blue Dog), Regina Thomas against John Barrow (Blue Dog), and Joe Sestak against Arlen Specter (recent Republican, current member of Evan Bayh's Conservadem caucus).  Given the numbers quoted above, it does not take a genius to conclude that all of these primary challengers would be at a real disadvantage if they argue against the health care bill, especially if the incumbents vote in favor of it.

Primary challengers already face in terms of money, name ID, and establishment support. These challengers cannot leverage unpopular positions as compensation for those disadvantages.  The only advantage progressive primary challengers can consistently have is to articulate and represent the hopes and dreams of the Democratic electorate when an incumbent Democrat has failed to do so.

There may come a time when, for left-wing reasons, defeating a bill like the one that passed the Senate becomes a popular position among the Democratic rank and file.  However, that time is not going to be 2010.  As it moves closer to becoming law, liberal and Democratic support of the bill is going up, not down.

The only viable progressive primary challengers we are going to have next year will be candidates who backed the bill even though they thought it had a lot of room for improvement.  By the same token, the only Democrats who I hope vote against the final health care bill are center-right incumbents who face primary challenges from their left.  A vote like that will make my--and I hope our--efforts to defeat those incumbents much, much easier.

Chris Bowers :: No Dem incumbent will lose a primary by voting for the health care bill

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Public Option via Reconciliation (4.00 / 2)
I think the correct primary challenge rhetoric from the left will not be to attack the health care bill, but to emphasize how it can still be made better.  We can add in a public option with 50 votes via reconciliation any year.  That is what we should be pushing the Democratic party to do and what primary challengers should be emphasizing.

Or... (0.00 / 0)
Argue that we can reform the Filibuster at the start of the Session with 51 votes and then we can pass the PO.

[ Parent ]
It is pretty easy (0.00 / 0)
to make arguments over the size of the subsidy, the extent of the penalty for not purchasing insurance, and the ability to buy into Medicare from the left.

I really wonder, though, if those arguments will cut at all.  

My guess is the economy will make people forget HCR quickly.  The place to try and make distinctions would be on the economy, but that might be difficult to do.  

Really, though, the best challengers are going to make their arguments based on running against Congress and Washington.  

Primaries are going to be won based on cleaning up Washington, and focusing on the role of money and lobbyists. I really am not convinced a policy based argument will be enough in most cases.



[ Parent ]
I am very uncomfortable (4.00 / 1)
with the idea that we should be encouraging Better Democrats to modify or outright switch their positions on the health care bill simply to hew to the political winds.

If a candidate opposes the bill from the left (and rightly so) he or she should say so.  I thought we all wanted politicians who would speak their mind and mean what they say.

Though I have no empirical evidence for this, I doubt that opposing the bill from the left would automatically kill the candidate's campaign, as long as they clearly and articulately explain why they're opposing it.  There are plenty of legitimate reasons to be against this bill and the more we try to hide from them, the more that Overton window you refer to gets dragged to the right.


I am not saying people should switch their position (4.00 / 2)
What I am saying is that primary challengers who oppose the bill from the left will not be viable.

And no, to "clearly and articulately explain why they're opposing it" won't help. In fact, it will hurt, since talking about it more will just keeping reminding Dem primary voters that they disagree with the candidate.

But still, oppose it if you want to do it. Just don't expect to do well in the primary by running on that platform.


[ Parent ]
Okay, perhaps (2.00 / 2)
I question how solid these public opinion numbers are, as well as how much the public really knows about the health care bill coming out of the Senate.  Not to be the stereotypical elitist liberal, but is the bill more popular among Democratic primary voters than among us OLers because they're significantly to our right, or because they don't know what's going on the way we do?

[ Parent ]
... (0.00 / 0)
Or they interpret the data differently... or they agree with some of us who feel its better to pass a foundation and build from it than to scrap an imperfect bill on the huge gamble that they MAY try it again.

[ Parent ]
informed choices (0.00 / 0)
You hit the nail on the head with "because they don't know what's going on".

Maby they won't know yet by election time, but when the public does find out, they will be pissed. At that time, the backlash will be visible to everybody and the correct stance for office seakers will be obvious, regardless political persuation.

Government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob..... FDR


[ Parent ]
The problem with the poll (4.00 / 1)
is that some "independents" are actually left-wing third party supporters who oppose HCR from the left.

[ Parent ]
many people have become indedendent (0.00 / 0)
and third party in the last 6 months.  self identified dem and progressive aren't the same.  

I just believe the dems are becoming the old republican party and the greens will take the place of the old democrats.  The modern repulican party will fill the roll of dixiecrats.

My blog  


[ Parent ]
Probably a better idea... (4.00 / 1)
for them to keep their mouths shut about it, OR to talk about fighting to make it better.      Primary challengers need to concentrate on one thing and one thing only for most of their messages... Job Creation, Job Creation, Job Creation.

[ Parent ]
Americans are fairly progressive when it comes to the (0.00 / 0)
economy.  Most support government efforts to promote economic security and opportunity, and are large majorities support expanding social insurance (even if they are unfamiliar with that term.) If they can talk about additional health reforms that fit with these progressive values, it should help them (although attacking the bill, as Chris shows, probably won't.)

Since progressives support these things, and Republicans and corporate Democrats don't, that gives progressives an edge in a primary challenge that they would lack if they used a value neutral job creation approach. Why support a primary challenger who talks about job creation rather than the incumbent who does? An incumbent can probably point to some jobs created in their state / district - a challenger's potential job production would be potential.  Without putting that idea within a larger progressive narrative, a primary challenger is disadvantaged by that argument.

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.


[ Parent ]
Fair enough... (4.00 / 1)
But you could easily attack the incumbent for failing to focus on Job Creation, which is legitimate for 2009.

[ Parent ]
Do you have info on any other california districts? (4.00 / 2)
I know Costa and Baca both voted for Stupak, and Costa voted against the overall bill. All districts in CA were gerrymandered safe, though demographics are changing in a few.

If we have to live with the Nelsons of the world because no one else can win in NE, we shouldn't settle for shit in places where Republicans will NEVER win.


I'm torn on that... (4.00 / 3)
As far as the Nelson's of the world...  Is it better to have a reliable enemy, or a "friend" who may fuck you over at anytime?  I mean if control of the Senate hangs int he balance then sure, but if its between 56 or 57 seats... Eh, I might just rather say FU Nelson so that I don't have to worry about leadership cow towing.

[ Parent ]
Of course... (0.00 / 0)
Joementum is a special case.   I want him gone period.

[ Parent ]
Nelson is way worse (4.00 / 2)
Look at the voting records this session.  Ben Nelson ranks dead last among Democrats and votes with us in crucial votes 45% of the time.  That's above his career average of 44%.  Holy Joe is middle of the pack (tied for 29th) and votes with us 83% of the time.

Ben Nelson may be the single most harmful US Senator in either party.  He personally slashes, deforms and burns every piece of major legislation as Reid always bends for the 60.  One million more people are now unemployed because of the way Ben Nelson and Susan Collins deformed an already inadequate stimulus bill.  That's slightly more than the entire workforce of his crappy state of Nebraska.

Holy Joe is annoying and a microphone grabber but he is not in the same class as Ben Nelson, Evan Bayh, Max Baucus or Kent Conrad or even close.  Lieberman's overall voting is like Bob Casey or Patty Murray.

We had Lieberman dead to rights for a week after the CT primary and the establishment and Ned Lamont let him go.  We pay for that for all the extra massaging he takes.  But don't ever confuse the effect of Lieberman with the effect of Ben Nelson.


[ Parent ]
I accept Nelson more than Lieberman (0.00 / 0)
In that I believe there are people out there whose policy preferences resemble how Ben Nelson votes.  I can't say the same about Lieberman.  All jokes about Connecticut for Lieberman aside, I can imagine a somewhat Nelson-like minor party gaining a few seats in a multi-party parliamentary system in America.  I can't say the same about Lieberman, unless you think his party would be a single-issue, pro-Israel party.  So, from the perspective of being pro-democracy, Nelson strikes me as someone who is more authentic in terms of representing an authentic point of view that is out there, even if it is not one I share.

If we did have a parliamentary government with proportional representation, it's quite possible that national politics would involve trying to convince the Ben Nelsons of the world that their party should join a center-left rather than center-right coalition.

The bottom line is that you know where Nelson stands and can make a deal with him if you are willing to bend that far, while Lieberman is a shyster who keeps you wary of being stabbed in the back.  I can respectful disagree with Nelson, while I have problems respectfully agreeing with Lieberman when he votes for things I support.


Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
AFAIK no one's stepped up to run against either Costa or Baca (4.00 / 1)
and it's getting a little late to get started.

[ Parent ]
What will make them vote no? (0.00 / 0)
By the same token, the only Democrats who I hope vote against the final health care bill are center-right incumbents who face primary challenges from their left.  A vote like that will make my--and I hope our--efforts to defeat those incumbents much, much easier.

Find out and put it in or take it out.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


DCCC dollars will likely go more to shore up the Moderates (4.00 / 1)
I'm concerned about and do not trust Hoyer and Clyburn's interference/influence on the DCCC.  Will they make sure the Stupaks and Blue Dogs have support and those on the left -not so much??

Our DNC isn't exactly the firebrand of an example it once was under Dean.  And Emanuel surely taught Van Hollen the ways of the back room.  Keeping their donors and key constituent groups happy could mean a real war against any progressives short of money. ??


Nationalism is not the same thing as terrorism, and an adversary is not the same thing as an enemy.


[ Parent ]
Which is why... (4.00 / 2)
We need a strong progressive infrastructure outside of the party's.  

[ Parent ]
re: pennsylvania (0.00 / 0)
if specter gets re-elected, are there any good progressives that could succeed him? I imagine specter won't seek re-election after 2010

Joe Hoeffel (4.00 / 1)
who is currently running for Governor.

[ Parent ]
Really? (0.00 / 0)
I think Arlen likes the power... I think he's trying to pull a Strom Thurmond.

[ Parent ]
Change the subject (0.00 / 0)
Given the numbers quoted above, it does not take a genius to conclude that all of these primary challengers would be at a real disadvantage if they argue against the health care bill, especially if the incumbents vote in favor of it.

Perhaps, given the situation, they should just shut up about it. (Since a challenger isn't voting in Congress.) See how things shake out. The bill still has to be passed. And when it has been passed you have to see how it shakes out.

The problem is, is that any primary challenger who wins has to campaign against a Republican. If the bill starts to stink come August, saying you supported the bill and then fighting the R about it is a loser. If the bill doesn't stink, then the reverse is true.

Since the general consensus seems to be that no one likes the bill but everyone wants it passed, basically, you're going to have to pretend the thing doesn't exist. The advantage is that the the incumbent will want to do so as well in the primary. The only people who are going to want to run on this issue (except whatever dollops of money shows up locally from it) is the WH. And the Republicans.

The overarching issue is the economy. Full stop, so to really get anywhere, a primary challenger is going to have to argue for fixes. The secondary issue is the war. Same deal.

I'm pretty the fall will be all about 'Obama bank bailouts/Medicare cuts' against 'the Bush Economy'. So aiming to attack the Bush economy (and the incumbent's support for it) is the way to go. Leave the HCR stuff open for improvisation.

max
['That seems like the right play.']


This is health care we're talking about (0.00 / 0)
You can't expect candidates to disappear the issue and not mention it or be asked about it once the whole year.

[ Parent ]
Well... (0.00 / 0)
Yes, they should mention it and definitely address it if asked, but I think Max means they should FOCUS on it.    

[ Parent ]
No Dem incumbent will lose a primary (4.00 / 2)
if we kill the bill outright, either.

Primary challengers who supported killing it (4.00 / 1)
Would really be toast in the event the bill is actually killed. The primary electorate would be outraged.

[ Parent ]
"Outraged"? Is there a scintilla of evidence for this? (0.00 / 0)
This seems like an incredible statement to make, since the only people who seem truly excited about the bill are healthcare industry lobbyists, management, etc.

Thus, just about the only people who I can imagine who would literally be "outraged" by killing the bill are those same healthcare industry lobbyists, management, etc.

I can also imagine lots of Americans who have been denied healthcare insurance, at any price, might be excited about it's passage, if it means that they will, at long last, get that coverage. But if they know the bill was killed partly by Dem Congress critters who considered it a ripoff of the American taxpayer, one would hope that even they would have mixed feelings (including dismay.)

Sorry, I'm just not seeing or feeling the outrage of the "kill bill" scenario.

I heard a program on progressiveradionetwork tonight, where some guy named Jesse Johnson was interviewed. He's running or ran for governor in W. Virginia. He said that people in W. Virginia are registering independent at 5x the rate that they're registering for Democrats.

The crappy healthcare bill may accelerate such trends, leading to the question of "Even if some Democrats do get outraged over killing the bill, so what?" So, the most significant legacy of the great healthcare bill battles of 2008 may not suit the Democrats or Republicans.  

435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
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[ Parent ]
Yes, there is evidence (0.00 / 0)
Like the poll I quoted in the post, where only 16% of self-identified Democrats want their member of Congress to vote against the bill.

That is evidence. Scientific evidence, at that. All you have in opposition to this evidence is a vague feeling that Democrats who oppose the bill are more fired up.


[ Parent ]
The Vocal Minority... (0.00 / 0)
Kind of like the Theo Cons who think their views are the majority view when poll after poll tells us they are stupid... I mean wrong.

[ Parent ]
the word "outrage" suggests strong emotion (4.00 / 2)
I suppose a non-emotional barometer of this emotion would be the question: "If your Congressperson votes against the healthcare bill, would this incline you to vote against him or her in the next primary, against a challenger who is for the healthcare bill?"

I've read comments at Democratic Underground from people who say that they always say, if/when asked for a poll, that they support Democratic President X, even if they basically don't. The reason is that they are supporting their party by answering this way.

Another way to think of this is: a woman whose husband is an avid hunter may not lobby against guns in the house, or even that stupid-looking deer's head mounted on the wall. But that doesn't mean she wouldn't get rid of them in a heartbeat, if her husband was amenable. She is supporting the guns and dumb deer-head because she loves her husband, and for no other reason.

If the President got on TV tomorrow, and said that "Well, folks, sorry, but I will not sign the bill that will likely land on my desk, because of insufficient cost containment, blah, blah, blah. It has become so watered down that we need to start over from scratch!", would the Democrats in your survey be outraged at the President? Or would they fall in line, because they're Democrats first, and not so much thinking and aware citizens who have been paying close attention to this issue?

If the latter is the rule, then I don't believe they'd be "outraged" if a Democratic incumbent voted against the bill, and said incumbent made it clear why they were doing so.

435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


[ Parent ]
Honestly... (0.00 / 0)
Maybe its different in your area, most Dems I know want it to pass.  They think its flawed but the goods out weigh the bad and its a good start.    The only place I really see a HUGE amount of people clammoring to kill it is online... The polls show its popular among the party.   And it has gained in support as it gets closer to passage.    

[ Parent ]
Do you really think... (0.00 / 0)
Most Americans are idealists rather than pragmatists?   Do you really think people without coverage are going to be ok with an altruistic gesture rather than the coverage.  In the mind of many of those who fall into that category or fall into the catergory of if they lose their coverage, they'll never get it back, flawed coverage is better than the NO coverage they have now.  

That's the thing I think that many in the blogosphere are losing site of.  Killing the bill ONLY works if a new bill gets passed.  If that doesn't happen, then 30 million people just got screwed out of coverage and many more still face pre-existing conditions, recision, cap limits, etc.    I mean answer honestly... Are you upset about this bill because nothing guarentees your rates won't go up potentially causing you trouble down the road... or can you honestly tell me that you think that the people who get screwed by Recision, Cap limits, and pre-existing condition on a daily basis... that the people who would get more subsidies to get insurance they don't have now are BETTER off under the existing system if the GAMBLE fails?   I don't fault you at all if your costs are you biggest concern... not at all... but I'd just like an honest answer... are you willing to risk keeping those who have no insurance and can't get any under the current abusive system mired in that system if the gamble fails?


[ Parent ]
I already suggested that some people would benefit by this bill (4.00 / 2)
even to the extent that they are excited about it. That's why I wrote,

I can also imagine lots of Americans who have been denied healthcare insurance, at any price, might be excited about it's passage, if it means that they will, at long last, get that coverage.

So yes, there are good things in the bill.

Also, I personally don't have any health insurance. I quite literally can't afford it, unless I live in the street or bum off a relative for shelter on the couch. At my age, that's not a very good thing. And no, I'm not the picture of health, but I'll skip the details.

So, I'm not really looking at this in terms of the effect on my pocketbook, and thanks to Obama's bonehead economic policies, it's not even clear that I'll ever get a job, again, that pays even 60% of what I made before being laid off.

The main reason I want the bill killed is because it's going to solidify and even accelerate the downward trend of the middle class, as a whole, which has the effect of disempowering it. If the Democrats come back with a much better bill that lowers healthcare costs to society down to European levels, that will aid the middle class (and indirectly the poor). And if they fail to do that, the still-more-empowered-than-otherwise middle class can use their disgust with the Democratic Party to either get off their rear ends and take it over, from below, or else support a third party.

By the way, I think a good part of the support for the bill by Democrats is fundamentally tribal (see my comment above), and that the Republicans, if they're smart, won't get in the way of it passing it, but soon. Instead of ineffective "pull the plug on grandma" stories that mostly bolster their own base, they can start campaigning against it's real defects. That should allow them to utterly smash the Democrats in 2010. I don't really like the Democrats, but I like the Republicans even less.

After all, to win in a general election, you need independents supporting you, not just your base. And how is that looking?

435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


[ Parent ]
Outraged, but still willing to push for an improved HCR bill, no? (4.00 / 2)
I'm really struggling to understand why the wind will go out of the sails of reform if no bill passes, yet the impetus to "fix" the bill will somehow remain strong.

The system is broken, right? The status quo is unsustainable, right?

So how is it possible that should no bill pass, the desire (demand?) for reform will evaporate on the part of the populace?

What is the flaw in a campaign based on "getting HCR right", in the aftermath of a failed bill?


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
The answer rests on who makes their case the loudest, doesn't it? (4.00 / 2)
Bring it down to the Fox level of understanding -which is where much of the public is.

The benefits to the Dems bucking up to do the right thing by killing their own bill because it was so flawed immediately gives them an huge offensive advantage over the Right, for a change.  If they loudly take advantage of that in their struggle for re-election I think they'll suffer less harm than had they slammed through another pro-business anti-consumer choice piece of crap.

They need good PR now. Tell the public the'll put HCR aside temporarily to focus on jobs, but will come back later in the year with a sounder and simpler plan for everyone..

Wouldn't we rather hear them make sound re-election arguments on the campaign trail rather than a load of whining youtube quality excuses?


Nationalism is not the same thing as terrorism, and an adversary is not the same thing as an enemy.


[ Parent ]
Yes (0.00 / 0)
Which faction ultimately takes credit for, or gets pinned with, sinking a failed bill is a crucial point.

Should be bill end up being voted down, I want Conservative/GOP finger prints on it. One more reason to push the final version to the left - get the "moderates" to jump ship.

Chris has a point about the up-hill battle faced by DFHs who are seen as the assassins of the reform effort.  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Move the ball down the field (0.00 / 0)
What I am saying is that primary challengers who oppose the bill from the left will not be viable. - CB

I suspect you are correct about this, Chris.  But, that shouldn't prevent a candidate from campaigning to the left of the final bill, should it?  They aren't required to threaten to kill it, or say that it should be killed.  But that shouldn't stop them from pointing out a weakness in the bill (there is, afterall, likely to be an array to choose from) and campaigning to make that bill better.  More progressive.  More responsive.  More inclusive.  If the argument that the bill can be improved has any merit at all, then we are for damn sure gonna need champions for its improvement.  They aren't required to denigrate what's been done, but they ought to be free to point out where their opponent could have done better.  There's both process and content opportunities, imho.


Move The Bill Left (0.00 / 0)
I agree here.  I think that any progressive that campaigns should not be happy with the Senate bill, and should make it a point to start reform of the bill right now to make it better.

Most voters I know also realize this is massive gift to the insurance industry and are not happy about that at all.  If fact, most fear a real backlash against the Dems for screwing up the bailout (economy) and health care reform.  


[ Parent ]
the overton window?!!! (4.00 / 1)
All that you note above may in fact be empirically true.

But what does this say about 1] the extent to which the nation is hopelessly brainwashed by the back and forth Democrat/Republican, crony capitalist, Wall Street narrative and 2] the extent to which the left is virtually irrelevant in changing that narrative?

The "overton window"!!!!

What a perfect didactic description of what left wing pundits are reduced to these days. It's all this theoretical inside the beltway bullshit about stuff you read in each other's blogs. It's just intellectual masterbation by and large.

What proponents of real health care reform need of course is half a million men, women and children marching on the Capitol Building demanding it. They need people contacting each other a la the Deaniacs in 2004 and organizing efforts to find and support genuinely progressive candidates to drive the Wall Street hacks out of the Democratic Party.

All I read here is basically a bunch of academics exchanging words about other words they read in the New York Times, the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal. Will someone explain to me what any of this has to do with ousting the Bilderbergers from Washington?

Even Jesse Ventura is digging into the Bilderbergers this evening. Where? Not here at Open Left or at any other left wing venue. No, he is exposing these rich, powerful and enormously influential crony capitalists bastards on Tru TV!!!

Sorry, Chris, it looks like you've been scooped.


Whatever, man (4.00 / 1)
You dump on analysis itself. As such, why should anyone take what you say to be true? There is no way to argue for or against it, given that all analysis is bunk.

The overt anti-intellectualism is your writing is sad.


[ Parent ]
analysis can be fun (0.00 / 0)
I believe the poll was taken while there was still the illusion that there would be a public option.

It was also before Herbert's article and the opposition to taxing Cadillac plans hit the headlines.

And some nasty stuff is going to come up when Stupak fights for his sick and disgusting amendment when it's taken up in the House, and Democrats have to argue the merits of Nelson's sick and disgusting amendment instead.

The poll you cite already notes a downward trend in support for the bill since September.

We shall see.  In any event, I think the bill should be killed, its head cut off, the body burned and the ashes scattered to the winds.  Then maybe we can settle down to doing it right.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
The poll was taken after the public option was killed (0.00 / 0)
And one-third of the interviews were conducted after Lieberman also killed the Medicare buy-in.

Further, as I cited in the article, support has only gone up further since that time.

But yes, I'm sure that Herbet's article will sway the opinion of the base mightily. Most Democrats in the country just do what he says.


[ Parent ]
The issue Herbert raises will (0.00 / 0)


Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

[ Parent ]
pretend I'm not even here... (4.00 / 3)
You could be right.

And I did major in philosophy at college.

But what prompted my exasperated rant above was the "overton window" reference.

That just pushed me over the edge for some reason.

I'm 61 years old. I'm disabled and live now literally on SSDI. So, I'm pretty much both harmless and impotent.

But for nearly 25 years I was active in one or another radical political organization in the 60s, 70s and into the 80s.

Tons and tons of analysis then too.

But also tons and tons of other stuff. Like community organizing, grassroots movements and marching in the street.

I just look at the left these days and can't help but point out how far removed it seems to be from where it needs to be---hooking up with folks who can get us beyond a worlds of words.

It would be nice to see another mass movement before I tumble over into the abyss.

But it's not going to happen is it?

Hey, nothing personal.  


[ Parent ]
Hi George! (0.00 / 0)
I'm 61 and diabetic with bad knees.

But I'm seeing stirrings of movement.  And I'm not one easily seduced by the cries of outrage that go nowhere.  New ways of thinking.

I suspect that Chris, in his defense, has heard these empty calls to battle for so long that it's hard to notice subtle changes of tone.

Since you're a 60's guy, remember the stretch, around 1965 give or take a couple years, when the Johnson administration became the system, the enemy, because it was killing us?  We were young and didn't have the Democratic habit, and like the Incredible Hulk, "All I know is that you try to kill me, and for that you must pay!"  The government is fucking with us, and Obama and the Democrats are the government.  It's that simple.

What's good or bad for the Democratic Party is simply not the question.  Nor is our outrage in any way an endorsement of the Republicans.  It stands on its own.

The spectrum of discussion has been stiflingly narrow, but what I am starting to see are gropings towards turning outrage into activity.

The Full Court Press (I use the example, not trying to recruit you) has gotten a much stronger response, given its limited visibility, than I had ever expected because it promises a specific plan.  I expect some stirrings when the jobs program becomes front and center, and we go into it with our eyes wide open, instead of in a daze like we entered the healthcare fight.

Please hang around a few more years, and I'll try too.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
You know what... (0.00 / 0)
Maybe it is a generational thing.... I'm curious now.

Still I find it interesting a 60+ Diabetic with bad knees thinks he would be better under the old system then the proposed system in the few years he has until Medicare.   Imagine you were 10 years younger with the same issue... do you honestly feel you'd be better off under the current system...  because if this bill is killed and congress DOESN'T immediately take it back up as some are gambling on, then that's what you are stuck under.    

To me, start building a basis and continue to fight to improve it.   Will it be easy... no.  But you have a lot better shot of improving it than to pass another giant HCR bill like this one... especially given the opposition to reconciliation, which no one has been able to produce proof 51 Senators support using.


[ Parent ]
It's not necessarily whether I will be better off personally (4.00 / 3)
I believe it's a bad bill.  The mandate will be a crushing burden on my wife and I.  We can't afford the premiums and the subsidies won't be enough.

But it's not just how it affects me.  While it's somewhat unlikely that I'll be needing an abortion soon, the Stupak/Nelson amendments offend me to the core.  

As for improving it, I believe that with the system broken, it is imperative that something be done.  If something crappy is done, there will not be sufficient support to fix anything further.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
p.s. I don't believe that you're harmless (0.00 / 0)


Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...

[ Parent ]
Mostly Harmless... ;-) (0.00 / 0)
Don't Panic!

[ Parent ]
The popularity of this historic reform... (4.00 / 1)
... passed on Christmas Eve might change a little bit after people find out what's in it.   And every month thereafter when they have to write a fat check for a lousy policy.

Christmas news dumps only last so long, and there's still almost a year to elections.


We have religious atheism, now we need political party atheism (0.00 / 0)
That suggesting we should hold out for even the kind of limited public health system neoliberal Canada has be considered "radical" if not "unthinkable" is very telling of the kind of depraved state our polity is in. And, that no matter what we should invest hope in the Dems, in spite of the mountain of evidence the party is as fiercely reactionary as the dominant party, is telling of the insanity resulting from this sickly state of affairs.

For me, if the left really has been reduced to apologizing for the Democrats then I want something other than the left.


[ Parent ]
Of course... (0.00 / 0)
They also may like enough of it to be happy with it... such as not having to worry about pre-existing conditions, caps or recision, etc anymore.

[ Parent ]
I think many progressives have left the party (0.00 / 0)
in the past six months so I am not impressed by self identified democrats.

in any case in only cements my view that we should vote against conservadems in the general and not just the primaries, and it further solidifies my view, that more and better deocrats won't make a damn bit of difference since they will still allow conservadems to lead the party and vote for all the bad bills the conservadems produce.

Go greens!

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