Constitutional Beanball: The Supreme Court's Corporate Rewrite of The First Amendment

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 18:00


"This is purely a Bush v. Gore-type grab." - John Dean on "Live from the Left Coast", KPFK ~ 12:08 PST today.

In my previous diary, "Constitutional Beanball" I went to some lengths to describe some contrasting views of how political actors seek to radically change the constitutional order.  The reason for doing so was to (a) better understand what was happening with the Supreme Court decision in Citizens United vs. FEC and (b) better understand what is wrong with "liberal" (that is, both actually and apparently liberal) advocates supporting the ruling.

Let me begin by quoting most of a post at the American Prospect by Scott Lemieux of Lawyers, Guns and Money:

  • As I said after the oral arguments, I don't have any strong objection to the Court's ruling that the restrictions placed on showing Hillary: the Movie were unconstitutional. Such a holding would be quite defensible even under a legal framework that tried to balance First Amendment interests and the importance of fair elections.    The real question was whether the case would be decided in narrow or broad terms, and alas it's very much the latter. The Court overruled both a 20-year precedent permitting greater restrictions on corporate speech and parts of a more recent ruling upholding the McCain-Feingold Act, and has essentially held that for-profit corporations have the same First Amendment rights as individuals.
  • On a related note, it seems worth noting again that Chief Justice Roberts's purported "minimalism" -- so often touted by his defenders, including liberals who should know better -- is an empty fraud. At least in this case -- unlike previous campaign finance rulings -- the Court was willing to overturn precedents explicitly. But, certainly, this should serve as a reminder that it's farcical to claim that modern judicial conservatives stand for substantive "minimalism" or "judicial restraint."  
  • The central line of argument in Justice Kennedy's majority opinion -- that the First Amendment does not permit distinctions based on the identity of the speaker -- is superficially attractive. The problem is, there's no reason to believe that any of the justices believe it. In addition to the examples in Justice Stevens' superb dissent, consider Morse v. Frederick, a decision denying a free speech claim which all 5 of the justices in today's majority also joined. Obviously. Nobody would dispute that an ordinary citizen who unfurled a "Bong Hits 4 Jesus" banner could be sanctioned by the state; the punishment was upheld solely based on Frederick's identity as a student, which meant that his free speech rights had to be balanced against a school's interest in preventing drug use (and could be denied even if there was no plausible argument that his speech actually would promote drug use). If this kind of balancing test is permissible, surely Congress should be permitted to place some weight on the importance of fair elections when considering the First Amendment rights of for-profit corporations.   

This brief survey hits a number of high points in terms of basic contradictions between (a) the purported judicial minimalism of Roberts in particular, (b) the purported general abhorrence of "judicial activism" by conservatives in general, (c) the purported respect for precedent by conservatives in general and the actual practice of conservative justices when they can get away with it.  It also takes note of the conservative's eager embrace of limiting free speech for (potentially) doper students, but not for cigarette companies, corporate polluters and the like. As Scott notes, this is not mere minor carping, this decision vividly gives the lie to the claim that "modern judicial conservatives stand for substantive 'minimalism' or 'judicial restraint'"--which is, in essence, the core argument that conservatives have been making ever since they blew their tops over Brown v. Education 56 years ago.

The conclusion here is obvious: if substantive "minimalism" and "judicial restraint" weren't the issues, then obviously racism was (I'm shocked! Shocked!)  What's more, the entire conservative legal movement is based on lies.  This is clearly an element in what I call "constitutional beanball", in contrast to Tushnet's concept of "constitutional hardball."  Tushnet's concept essentially presumes good faith disagreement, albeit between (at least potentially) irreconcilable viewpoints. Beanball encompasses-but does not require-cases in which people are bad-faith actors, liars, cheaters, fraudsters, law-breakers, etc.

Paul Rosenberg :: Constitutional Beanball: The Supreme Court's Corporate Rewrite of The First Amendment
As I noted in another diary earlier today, the potential amounts of money involved are enormous, on the order of almost 30,000 times the amount spent by MoveOn.org in the 2008 election.  The sheer magnitude of that much money alone is sufficient to make it obvious that a dramatic transformation in American governance will almost certainly result directly from this decision, unless significant counter-measures are taken.  This fact, combined with the multiple forms of duplicity involved in the case on the part of the conservative majority of justices is sufficient to qualify it as a case of "constitutional beanball."

Thus endeth part (a) of this diary.  But what if they're right, anyway?  That's the subject of part (b), for which I turn to a look at Glenn Greenwald's arguments.

The Context of No Context

In "What the Supreme Court got right", Greenwald is utterly unconcerned with any of issues I've raised about the arbitrary, capricious and downright bad faith behavior of the conservative justices.  Instead he focuses primarily not just on things he thinks the justices got right, but also on alleged preconceptions and misconceptions of critics-though he does preface this with statements about troubling aspects of the case, particularly the pernicious influences of corporate money on politics.

I want to begin by examining several of the most common reactions among critics of this decision, none of which seems persuasive to me.  Critics emphasize that the Court's ruling will produce very bad outcomes:  primarily that it will severely exacerbate the problem of corporate influence in our democracy.  Even if this is true, it's not really relevant.  Either the First Amendment allows these speech restrictions or it doesn't.  In general, a law that violates the Constitution can't be upheld because the law produces good outcomes (or because its invalidation would produce bad outcomes). (Emphasis added)
 
The bolded passage above suggests a Platonic view of the Constitution, as existing in an ethereal realm of its own, entirely divorced from the people who wrote it, as well as those who shaped the common law tradition in which it arose, and all those who have come afterwards.  This view is, frankly, entirely absurd, and I doubt very much that Greenwald actually subscribes to it as such.  But I underscore it precisely because it contrasts so sharply with the political and historical realism of Tushnet, Balkin and Levinson, and the insights they provide into the deeply contested nature of the political order, of which the First Amendment is clearly a (very important) part.

In fact, the historical reality-as already alluded to above-is that limits on free speech via balancing tests and the like not only have a very long history in Anglo-American law, but that are still upheld by the very same justices who cast them completely aside in this case.  Thus, from a realist perspective, the exact opposite of what Greenwald says is true: Either balancing tests support considerations of whether bad outcomes will result, or they don't-and virtually everyone, including the justices who decided this case-agrees that balancing tests do support such considerations.  The question is-how and why.  Of course, Greenwald is free to take an absolutist view of the First Amendment, in which no such outside considerations play any part.  But this is not the basis on which this case was decided, as there is not a single "Free Speech absolutist" on the Court.  Personally, I think that such absolutism is mistaken, but that it's a good idea to have at least one absolutist on the Court, just to push an important point of view, and to help keep the other justices honest.  So in essence, I'm critical of, but not necessarily hostile to this viewpoint.  I am quite hostile to the fake adoption of this viewpoint for ulterior motives.

Greenwald continues:

One of the central lessons of the Bush era should have been that illegal or unconstitutional actions -- warrantless eavesdropping, torture, unilateral Presidential programs -- can't be justified because of the allegedly good results they produce (Protecting us from the Terrorists).  The "rule of law" means we faithfully apply it in ways that produce outcomes we like and outcomes we don't like.

While this is certainly true on the face of it, it's misleading when linked to Greenwald's seemingly ahistorical claim about the First Amendments' Platonic status.  Rather, this statement is most illuminating when read in the context of Balkin & Levinson's discussion of Type I and Type III crises-or even moreso in the context of my concept of constitutional beanball.  Perhaps the best way of knowing that you're not engaged in constitutional beanball is if the position you're advocating foreseeably entails certain significant outcomes that you would not substantively advocate for-because this is strong (though not infallible) indication that you're not making a bad faith argument.

Put another way, taken as a whole what Greenwald is saying in the passages quoted so far seems fair enough as a caution against premature judgment, but ill-advised as a prohibition against considering outcomes.  It matters very much how one goes about considering outcomes in determining whether a judicial decision (or legal opinion) is right or wrong.  It's good to be prudent, bad to be prohibitionist.
Thus I would agree entirely with Glenn's next statement, with the inclusion of the modification in brackets:

Denouncing court rulings [simply] because they invalidate laws one likes is what the Right often does (see how they reflexively and immediately protest every state court ruling invaliding opposite-sex-only marriage laws without bothering to even read about the binding precedents), and that behavior is irrational in the extreme.

But I would find the next sentence headed right back to questionable Platonic territory:
If the Constitution or other laws bar the government action in question, then that's the end of the inquiry; whether those actions produce good results is really not germane.

If some result really is very bad, one should be cautious in jumping to conclusions denouncing it out of hand simply for that reason.  But if the result was reached in bad faith, then that's good reason to denounce the decision process, and also a strong indicator that the Constitution or other laws are contestable at best, if not clearly contradictory to what the bad-faith deciders allege.

Greenwald is also off-base in arguing that further empowering corporations couldn't possibly make things any worse:

I'm also quite skeptical of the apocalyptic claims about how this decision will radically transform and subvert our democracy by empowering corporate control over the political process.  My skepticism is due to one principal fact:  I really don't see how things can get much worse in that regard.  The reality is that our political institutions are already completely beholden to and controlled by large corporate interests (Dick Durbin:  "banks own" the Congress). 

I suppose Greenwald's outlook is understandable, since he spends so much time criticizing the results of the levels of corruption that already exist.  But it's easy to understand how they could be much, much worse.  There could be no one in the Senate to express Durbins views.  And no one in the House, either.  Or in any state legislature in the land, or on any city council or country board of commissioners.  It could be even worse than that.  There could be no one on any of those bodies who could even understand Durbin's criticism.  It can always get much, much worse, and Greenwald would almost certainly realize this if he were looking at things through a realistic historical perspective such as that which Balkin and Levinson articulate.

This is hardly a systematic refutation of Greenwald's points.  But it is indicative of what I see as the general problem with his viewpoint--and that of others who share it, or go even farther in the direction of ahistorical, acontextual support for the "free speech" argument in favor of the Court's ruling.  These positions sound credible in context of no context, but are like unto the pavement of the road to Hell for those who are not blind to history, or to the road on which we are now heading.


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The key concept (4.00 / 2)
is not what they just did, but where it fits into the broader campaign to reverse 1789.

Compare asking folks to get active to reverse a Supreme Court decision, versus asking them to preserve their freedom and personal safety:

One grabs one by the throat with a little more intensity than the other.

As long as we keep pretending there is no broader agenda (I don't dare call it a conspiracy...) we will continue to watch them win, like a frog in boiling water.


1789 Is Good (4.00 / 1)
The American Revolution was very much a revolution against corporate rule, among other things.  The original Tea Party was all about that.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
the big problem (4.00 / 4)
Is that greenwald is insisting on a plain text literalist interpretation of the first amendment, when that has never been the way it was interpreted.  If it was, no one could sue for libel or be charged for making a death threat.  You could attend any public gathering and disrupt and shout and not be subject to removal.   You could reveal state secrets to which you were privy.  The press could publish troop movements in war.  You could distribute child pornography or sell pictures of women photographed without their consent in change rooms or bathrooms.

There are some very reasonable and long standing prohibitions against all of these that have survived the first amendment, despite the plain text conflict they are in.  Maybe this is wrong and the constitution should be read that way, but then, it never was up to now, and if that's going to start, then you'd better allow all this stuff too.


True (4.00 / 2)
Thanks for bringing this up. I was originally going to get into it as well.  But I spent so much time on the previous diary, that I sort of ran out of steam, and decided to make this one shorter and more focused rather than risk rambling and getting too diffuse.

There's also the long tradition of "time, place and manner" restrictions.  I cover public meetings all the time for Random Lengths and three minutes is almost always the most that anyone gets to speak.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Yes! It's an example of first ammendment fundamentalism. (4.00 / 1)
And it's rather hypocrtical, since those fundamentalists haven't done much, if anything, to protest and fight the countless exceptions of free speech some of whic Daniel mentions. Those excepotions exist, and their constituionality is supported by the Supremes. So, as Paul rightly points out, that's the actual position of the court, not first ammendment extremism, regardless of the outcome! And the recent decision doesn't fit into this pattern at all.

Greenwald is one of those voices that Paul sees as necessary to uphold civil liberties rights. I agree. But Glenn, with his superios intellect and honesty, should be able to see that his view of the first ammendment is different fom that of the Supremes, as evident in numerous precedents. It doesn't matter at all how he would have decided, the point is that the actual decision doen't make any sense when viewed in the context rulings like Morse vs. Fredercik, passed just two and a half years ago. There's no sign whatever that the Court would overturn that now, and decide differently, and so this has to be the gound on which to judge Citizens United v. FEC. And if you do that, it shows a disturbing arbitrary appliance of principles. Looks like corporations are more equal than students!

So, the answer to the question  "Either the First Amendment allows these speech restrictions or it doesn't", as evident in many Supreme court decisions, obviously is 'yes, the first ammendment allows those restrictions'. And that's how the cookie crumbles, or, in this case, the main pillar of Greenwald's argument. I admire Glenn and his standing up for rights and ethics, but imho here he failed, and Paul shot his defense of the highly questionable decision down. First ammendent fundamentalism is not the base on which the US are grounded. Period!


[ Parent ]
constitutional amendment (4.00 / 1)
corporations are not persons

pass it through Congress, get it ratified


Corporations are associations (0.00 / 0)
And part of this decision hinges on how you interpret freedom of association under the First Amendment.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
No (4.00 / 1)
The Supreme Court declared they were persons under the 14th Amendment in a "decision" written by a clerk, Bancroft Davis, in the Santa Clara case, back in the good old days, when railroad lawyers ran the Court.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
And Greenwald doesn't even ask why the Supremes upheld this! (0.00 / 0)
He has no problem with the Court overthrowing precedent that is a mere twenty years old: "It's absolutely true that the Citizens United majority cavalierly tossed aside decades of judicial opinions upholding the constitutionality of campaign finance restrictions." But he doesn't even ask why they didn't overthrow the 123 year old judgment in Santa Clara instead, even though that was decided under much more qustionable circumstances, as you rightly point out?

Really, for Glenn  Greenwald, that's a surprising level of double standards he uses in his recent postings! Quite a disappointment.


[ Parent ]
Coming or going, the limits of reason (0.00 / 0)
Glenn is a) a lawyer, and b) a libertarian (small L.) It shouldn't surprise anyone, least of all you, Paul, that he's also c) a Platonist.

Given the recent history of cheap sophistries regarding the Supreme Court and the basis of its decisions, I frankly find his Platonism momentarily refreshing, even though -- as a leftist -- I've never trusted even the most expensive sophistry, and never will. Human beings are entitled to manipulate the fundamentals of their social contract, certainly. All one can reasonably argue in the law's defense it that it makes those manipulations a bit more predictable. Under normal circumstances, this makes our lives a little easier, even though of course its strictures aren't really graven into stone tablets, and politicsalways trumps the law, particularly when the law is captured by a single interest group, and/or insists on being an ass, which anyone to the left of Attila the Hun can see is the case here.

Glenn clearly feels that he has to defend the abstract idea of the law, even though, as you say, Paul, he isn't stupid, and therefore probably knows as well as we do just how fragile his abstraction is. For my own part, I very much sympathize with his basic insight, which is that without some reverence for the law, however ill-founded it may be intellectually, we'll tend to treat it as the political football which it is in fact, and then we'll have no breathing space at all. We'll have nature red in tooth and claw instead, which no civilized person ever wants.

I'm sitting on the fence on this issue, in other words, but given the alternatives, I'm more comfortable there than I otherwise would be.


I'm Not Opposed To The Abstraction (4.00 / 2)
Heck, I LOVE abstraction.  All that stuff about different types of integrals in my last diary?

It's unconscious abstraction that's so damn dangerous.

As long as we remember that it's just a tool of our own making, and like all tools demands respect in order to not cause serious damage, we'll be fine.

Unfortunately, given our track record, that seems to be asking an awful lot.

But, then again, my diary about the rightwing victimology ratio represents my own invention of another abstraction that I think can come in mighy handy.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Here's one of Greenwald's points worth examining (4.00 / 1)
What is overlooked in virtually every discussion I've seen over the last 24 hours is how ineffective these campaign finance laws are.  Large corporations employ teams of lawyers and lobbyists and easily circumvent these restrictions; wealthy individuals and well-funded unincorporated organizations are unlimited in what they can spend.  It's the smaller non-profit advocacy groups whose political speech tends to be most burdened by these laws.  Campaign finance laws are a bit like gun control statutes:  actual criminals continue to possess large stockpiles of weapons, but law-abiding citizens are disarmed.

I am sympathetic to the viewpoint that the law should be the same for for-profit corporations like ExxonMobil and Ford and for non-profit corporations like the NAACP and ACLU.  It becomes a question of keeping out the latter as a price of excluding the former or accepting the former as the price of including the latter.

Greenwald asks, "And does anyone doubt that the First Amendment bars the government from restricting the speech of organizations composed of like-minded citizens who band together in corporate form to work for a particular cause?"  I think that is a real question that has to be answered.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


I've ALREADY Answered This (0.00 / 0)
bad as it may seem, it could be much, much worse.  This is easily seen by the efforts undertaken to take over state courts, for example.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
No, I don't think you have (0.00 / 0)
I don't think I've read you write anything on what effect this ruling has on specifically non-profit corporations, especially those engaged in issue advocacy.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
As Far As I Can Tell, It's Impossible To Say (4.00 / 2)
But in all probability, the astroturf equivalents will run roughshod over everyone else.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I'd say it really depends on how far and how hypocritically (4.00 / 1)
they want to extend their logic.

Maybe the NLRB will overturn a union election because the boss threatened to move the plant if the workers voted to organize a union, and the SCOTUS will declare all laws and regulations limiting the boss's communication with the workers during a campaign as unconstitutional -- which would be a little less awful if the Court then went on to rule that Taft-Hartley bans on secondary strikes and pickets are also unconstitutional, but they're clearly not going to do that.

Or they could decide that, since money is speech, all campaign contribution limits are unconstitutional.  And then we'd be back in a world of Al Swearengen preparing his envelopes for the c**ksuckers in Yankton, without even the pretense of legal recourse.


[ Parent ]
Uh, but this doesn't make sense in light of his line of argument. (0.00 / 0)
Thoughout both of his postings, he criticizes readers whose "opinions about court rulings are outcome-based". Ok, to stick with a very stict reading of the constitution and disregard the outcome, is a rational (even though imho misguided) point of view. But then, he of course can't apply this principle arbitarily, and use the alleged ineffctiveness of the camapaign law as an argument for his side! Either the outcome matters, or not. He can't have it both ways.

And, afaics, the onesidedness apparent in his posting goes even further. Because he actually looks at prior decisions by the judges, but only to use these as an argument against criticism, for instance against the view that corporations aren't persons with constittional rights. But he totally fails to apply the same level of scrutiny to his point of view! D'oh. But if he would do that, he couldn't avoid noticing that there's no precendent that supports his opinion, that "The First Amendment is not and never has been outcome-dependent". No, sry, with all rpsect, but that's wrong. The Supremes have always seen the first ammendment with regard to the outcome. For heaven's sake, how else to explain the different standards applied to free speech. Shouting "The Supreme Court judges are idiots" at the entrance to Disneyworld is allowed, but not "I have a bomb in my ruckzack!". Where's the effing difference between both statements? It's the outcome, stupid!

Really, Greenwald's stance towards the decision is very disappointing. Not only doesn't he apply the same standard to both sides, his whole premise is obviously wrong. Wow.


[ Parent ]
What about an impeach Scalia/Thomas movement? (0.00 / 0)
I tend to feel the same way that Greenwald does about Kennedy's majority opinion, but I've also read Scalia's concurrence and Thomas's partial dissent and I'm wondering if anyone else feels like stringing up those two bozos or riding them out of town or whatever metaphor you want to use.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

Some points (0.00 / 0)
1.  I think you bolded the wrong part of Greenwald's post.  This:
Either the First Amendment allows these speech restrictions or it doesn't

doesn't express support for Constitutional Platonism as you describe it.  It expresses support for the logical principle of bivalence.  Now some people don't like bivalence.  But those people are all either professional philosophers or really freaky theoretical physicists.  And as one of the former let me tell you not to trust them on such weighty matters.  It is the next quote that seems to be the real target of your criticism:

In general, a law that violates the Constitution can't be upheld because the law produces good outcomes (or because its invalidation would produce bad outcomes).

Here is where it matters that no one actually applies the first amendment in this way, and that it would be absurd to do so.  Compelling state interests get taken into account all the time.

2.  Pet Peeve:  Plato does not deserve to have his name attached to Glenn's position.  Call it Constitutional Absolutism, or Constitutional non-consequentialism or something.  But Plato thought that the consequences of a policy mattered.  He may have thought that too much.  Plato gets a lot of shit since they turned his name into an adjective, and it just isn't fair.

3.  More substantially, I don't think your argument against Glenn's point that this doesn't matter holds much water.  You are certainly correct that Congress can get much more corrupt than it is.  But I take it that the real point in favor of 'this might not change things that much' is that it was pitifully easy for corporations to get around the ban on corporate donations.  They simply started a PAC which all the very highly paid executives of the company contributed to with remarkable uniformity.  I think the point is that all this case does is remove the necessity of the intermediary organization.  In short, this takes away the need to launder the money before using it to buy politicians.  So while Congress could be more corrupt, the old ban did nothing to stop corporations anyway, so this won't increase their power to corrupt Congress.

That is the argument I take it.  I am not sure of the details of campaign finance law as it relates to PACs, but I was under the impression that their contributions were unregulated.  If that is not correct, then Glenn's 'this doesn't make a difference' argument probably falls through.

4.  My own position on this is that the real reason to be upset here is that the Court has basically set down another precedent in favor of full corporate personhood.  Justices are going to point to this for years to argue that corporations need to have each and every right that human beings do.  Like the right to adopt children, or the right to associate with a person or not based on gender, race, orientation, religion, etc.


Uh, no, the equivalent of the either/or statement is... (4.00 / 1)
..."The First Amendment is not and never has been outcome-dependent". As I see it, this is the principle that Paul attacks, by showing that the First Ammendment INDEED has been applied with a view on the outcome. Paul doesn't question that "a law that violates the Constitution can't be upheld". He asks IF the campaign law violates the constitution, and he has good points, based on precedent, showing that it's totally in line with other restrictions of freedom of speech that thee Supemes ruled constitutional. And that the decision in Citizens United v. FEC suspiciously breaks with those established legal gounds.

So, no misunderstanding, I agree "no one actually applies the first amendment in this way, and that it would be absurd to do so". I just disagree that the quote you mention is th centerpiece of Paul's arguement. Well, let's wait what he says about this.


[ Parent ]
Um, no (0.00 / 0)
The logical form of the first quote in my comment is

Either X or not X.

Where X stands for 'The first amendment allows the speech restrictions'

That is just the formal principle of bivalence.  And bivalence doesn't commit one to any view about what kind of evidence can be adduced in favor of X, which is what we are arguing about.  I, and I am presuming Paul and yourself, think that outcomes can count as evidence in favor of ruling that the first amendment allows the speech restrictions in question.  Anyway this is not a huge deal.  I just didn't want Paul's target to be perceived as being a rule of logic (or what used to be a rule of logic, anyway), when his arguments are so effective against the sentence just below it.


[ Parent ]
I'm not that into philosophy, and maybe that's why I still don't get it. (0.00 / 0)
I mean, hmm, does anybody here disagree that 'The first amendment allows the speech restrictions' is a bivalent statement? Afaics, no. The question is, is the statement true, and on this we seem to disagree with Greenwald. And imho not only the historical evidence is on our side, it also works in our favor that it doesn't make any sense if the first ammendment was intended to be an absolute law! It's obvious, since the first Congress didn't eliminate the libel charge, which would otherwise have been the unavoidable consequence. So, the only logical conclusion is that the first ammendment indeed allows restrictions.

Btw, on side issue that is irritating me: Did Congress ever vot on the bill of rights, or was it only ratified by a supermajority (75%) of the states? Wikipedia doesn't say anything about a vote?


[ Parent ]
I think we have gotten turned around (4.00 / 1)
This proposition is the one I am talking about:

Either the First Amendment allows the speech restrictions or it doesn't.

I am just trying to point out that this claim is almost trivially true.  It's empty.  It doesn't imply anything interesting, and in particular it doesn't imply that consequences of a speech restriction don't matter.  

To be clear I think the mistake here is Greenwald's.  It is pretty clear from the context of his post that he thought he was making some interesting point by making the statement above.  He didn't know that it was pretty much a tautology I guess.  I think Paul was just responding to the fact that Greenwald thought that this was a point with some force to it, but the real target of Paul's criticism was Greenwald's claim that consequences don't matter.  And the claim that consequences don't matter doesn't imply and isn't implied by 'Either the First Amendment allows the speech restrictions or it doesn't'

This is a relatively minor point, but the reason I feel the need to make them is that these small mistakes are precisely the kind of thing that people like Byron York, George Will and the like harp on when they don't want to deal with the main point.  Sloppiness is a weakness of argumentation, and not just in academia, because it allows for people to make rhetorically satisfying counterarguments that obscure the fact that you have the evidence on your side.  In this case the sloppiness started with Greenwald, so I never meant to be criticizing Paul.


[ Parent ]
I Meant It Was Platonic (4.00 / 3)
In the sense of being like a Platonic form, existing in a realm beyond space and time, and whatever one can say about it is categorical, unchanging, eternal, which is why its consequences are irrelevant.

Obviously, Plato didn't think that things like the First Amendment were forms, but the term "Platonism" has been attached to this sort of attitude before to describe positions that put certain principles beyond the realm of argument.  While one could certainly call this "fundamentalism" -- and I often do -- there's something particular evoked by "Platonism" which is different: fundamentalists tend to think their principles are bedrocks -- that they exist below everything else.  Platonists think they are above everything else.  The logic consequences of this difference may be hard, even impossible, to pin down, but there's a definite difference in flavor.

The fact that Glenn says:

There are few features that are still extremely healthy and vibrant in the American political system; the First Amendment is one of them, and the last thing we should want is Congress trying to limit it through amendments or otherwise circumvent it in the name of elevating our elections.

And that he says:

What is overlooked in virtually every discussion I've seen over the last 24 hours is how ineffective these campaign finance laws are.  Large corporations employ teams of lawyers and lobbyists and easily circumvent these restrictions; wealthy individuals and well-funded unincorporated organizations are unlimited in what they can spend.

Indicates to me that he's clinging to a lofty transcendent here, "at least one thing is pure!" -- rather than defending a foundation on which basis everything can be put right.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I know (0.00 / 0)
its not your fault that 'Platonic' is used this way.  It has been used this way since around the time Plato was kicking around.  That is why it was just a pet peeve.  And a bit of joke on my part to bring up.  The substance of your argument is of course correct.

[ Parent ]
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