Superbowl Sunday highlights conservative welfare state in action

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Feb 07, 2010 at 08:00


Next weekend, I'll have a diary on the conservative welfare state as a common factor uniting conservatives, Blue Dogs and New Dems against progressives.  Consider this an appetizer, appropriate to the day ahead.

Last Friday, just on the eve of Superbowl weekend, the issue of a possible lockout of players in the 2011 season erupted to throw a discordant note into mix. Although NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell tried to downplay the possibility, even the WaPo noticed that things weren't right, reporting that:

On the players' side, Tennessee Titans center Kevin Mawae, the president of the union, told a Congressional subcommittee during a hearing last month on Capitol Hill that the players are fully anticipating being locked out by the owners in 2011. DeMaurice Smith, the executive director of the union, said Thursday that the owners had taken a series of steps that appeared designed to lock out the players.

Asked during his annual news conference Thursday about the prospects of a lockout in 2011, Smith called the urgency of the situation a 14 on a scale of 1 to 10.

The owners want massive give-backs from the players, because they claim to be losing money--which would not be surprising, since according to David Cay Johnston, author of Free Lunch, NONE of the big four subsidized monopoly sports leagues makes more money than it receives in public subsidies.  

Below is a clip from Johsnton talking about this on Democracy Now just over a year ago.  Although he focused almost exclusively on baseball in the clip--with a special little section on GW Bush & how local taxpayers made him rich--he did have this to say, more broadly:

Now, in this country right now, we are spending $2 billion a year subsidizing the big four sports: baseball, basketball, football and hockey. It accounts for all of the profits of that industry and more. Now, there may be individual teams that make money, but the industry as a whole is not profitable. And that's astonishing because the big four leagues are exempt from the laws of competition. By the way, irony is not dead, because here are people who are in the business of competition on the field who are exempted by law from the rules of economic competition.

If you go to England and you want to start a soccer team, they have to let you join the soccer league. There are thirteen commercial soccer teams in the London area. New York City, the biggest city in the country, there are two baseball teams, because there's no free entry into the market. In Los Angeles, there's no football team. And the owners use this power to prevent others from owning teams, to prevent municipal governments from owning teams, to prevent nonprofits from owning teams, to extract money from the taxpayers to build them new stadiums.

That's the conservative welfare state in action.

Sports stadiums in general are economic losers, and as for the Superbowl itself, it's not nearly as lucrative as the NFL claims, according to the folks at McCaltchy, the same outfit that wasn't snookered by Bush/Cheney on the whole Iraq War caper:

Paul Rosenberg :: Superbowl Sunday highlights conservative welfare state in action
MIAMI -- Boosters say a Super Bowl is worth $500 million to a host city. But many others scoff at that notion.

As Miami-area taxpayers consider a proposal by the NFL's Dolphins to have their stadium renovated, backers say to look at the numbers: Without a reported $250 million in improvements, the region could miss out on future Super Bowls and the nearly $500 million each game pumps into the economy.

But economists contend the math isn't nearly that simple -- or compelling.

Economists who study sports put the Super Bowl's net economic value at less than $100 million. And they accuse the NFL of dramatically inflating the Super Bowl's spending power for moments such as this, when teams want governments to fund stadium expenses.

"If they weren't talking about the numbers as justification for big public subsidies, I'd let them say whatever number they'd want," said Victor Matheson, an economics professor at the College of the Holy Cross in Worcester, Mass., who co-wrote a 2006 study titled "Padding Required: Assessing the Economic Impact of the Super Bowl."

His research shows that the Super Bowl's economic punch probably tops out around $90 million, although it can dip for tourist destinations such as Miami that already enjoy busy winters. His research found that in 1999, the area's economy gained $36 million from playing host to the Super Bowl.

"Not that you'd turn down $30 (million) or $40 (million) or $50 million for one of these events," he added, "but don't tell me it's $400 million."

Using a formula based on tax and income data, Craig Depken, an economist at the University of North Carolina-Charlotte, estimated that the Super Bowl added $58 million to southern Florida's economy in 2007.

"It's not nothing. It's not zero," he said. "But it's not nearly what the NFL says it is."

There are citizen fights against stadium scams going on all across the country.  It's gotten particularly fierce lately, what with every sort of public service being cut to the bone--and beyond.  You can get an introductory taste from this breezy overview from SignOnSanDiego, and then get more just by Googling NFL+stadium+subsidies, or go to the motherload at Field of Schemes.

Also of interest is the Stadium Facts blog, which is "the work of a group of Santa Clara residents who are opposed to the City's proposed subsidy of a stadium for the San Francisco 49ers."  These folks really know their stuff, with lots of broader supporting info in their links.  This 2003 study (pdf) of how sports reduces overall income, for instance.  From the abstract:

This paper explores the impact of professional sports teams and stadiums on the wages of individuals employed in several narrowly defined occupational groups in cities in the United States. The occupational groups examined are among those that proponents of public funding of professional sports claim will benefit economically from these stadiums. Our analysis uses data from the March Supplement to the Current Population Survey (CPS) for the period 1977 to 1998 as well as sports variables previously utilized by Coates and Humphreys (1999), (2001). Previous research focused on aggregate measures of income whereas here the focus is on the wages of individual workers. The results of the study confirm conclusions of earlier research that the overall sports environment is frequently statistically significant as a determinant of earnings and that the predicted mean impact of sports on wages in a sample of individuals employed in occupations closely related to professional sports is an annual average decrease in real earnings of $47.95. The results also show that the effects of the sports environment on wages differ across job-types. Workers in retail occupations earn more on average each year due to the presence of professional sports while workers in other peripherally related occupations like food services and hotels earn less.

So, don't let this be a buzz kill or anything. It's just a teachable moment, know what I mean?


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Aren't those subsidies only resulting in inflating the income... (0.00 / 0)
..of everybody involved, owners, managers, trainers, officials, and players? Why shouldn't those popular sports teams be able to stand on their own effing feet, instead of feeding on the public trough?

And, while progressives should of course support all unions, is there anything to be gained for making a stnad fo the playes with their million dollar salaries now, at a time when mass unemployment is a much more urgent issue? What signal would it send to weigh in on behalf of football and baseball millionaires now? Imho this would look like being totally removed from reality, and I don't think those struggling under the rcession would be sympathetic to this...


Not to mention ... (4.00 / 1)
do you think it dawns on Baby Jesus .. I mean Tebow .. that he's protected by a union in the NFL? .. or a lot of the other players? ... but the problem is .. they really don't see themselves as union members .. at least not like what we'd normally think of as union members

[ Parent ]
Sort Of Missing The Point (4.00 / 3)
This isn't an anomaly.  This is an archetype of how the conservative welfare state works. So it's not about supporting the players' union--even though players (unlike owners) have shorter life expectancies due to the inherently dangerous nature of the job, and thus are a lot more like cops, mineworkers, dockworkers, etc. than most people realize.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I'm aware Im wandering from your subject a bit, Paul... (4.00 / 1)
...but you know I'm very interested in economic issus, and imho the effects of that susbisdy are important. And the example you chose here is evidence of a subsidy in its purest "wefare for corporations" form, because there really isn't any defendable profit for the public in this.

Just imagine those subsidies for stadiums would simply become verboten! Well, would they abandon the Superbowl then? Of course not! It simply would stop the competition about bigger and more luxurious stadiums, that's all. The way it is now, there's a constant competition among the cities to advance their chances to bring this eevent home, and they conduct this fight with offering even more subsidies for more impessive stadiums, year after year. And this, even though the claculations show that there is no profit in this for them. This only results in the public palying the investor for the teams, and in investments being made that otherwise would make no economic sense.

And all that money being pushed into this business also results in ising incomes fo all participants, it's just anothr competition fueled by taxpayers dollars. And what would happen if that money would be pulled out of that sector? Would the be no football anymore, or no baseball? Not at all! Even half of those inflated incomes are still high enough for making these jobs very desirable! There is no risk in bursting this bubble, as long as it effects all participants in the game, and doesn't spare some teams from the impact.

And for the sports, it actually would be better, since it would even the field. Right now, those cities with a hgh population and a big budget have a big advantage in this race for the highest subsidies. Without that, the teams of smaller cities would have better chances, and that would result in more excitement!

So, Paul is ight, this is an excellent example of a subsidy that doesn'tmake any sense fo the public, and only results in serving corporate interests. Imagine what could be done with that amount of money if this nonsense could simply be stopped!


[ Parent ]
The Point Is (4.00 / 3)
It's not just stadiums.  This is a model for the entire conservative approach of giving subsidies to those on top in one form or other, and then just assuming that this will benefit the entire economy by some magical form of trickle down.  Well, it does trickle down a little ways.  The owners benefit, the CEOs benefit, heck, even the CFOs benefit!  But it doesn't go a heckuva way farther than that.

At best, it actually may benefit an entire sector--see how the FIRE sector (finance, insurance, real estate) has gobbled up the rest of the US economy these past 20-30 years--but the cost of that has been both tragic and enormous.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Yes, but the tickle down doesn't equal the subsidies! (0.00 / 0)
Not enough of this money is spent where it comes from, so even with the trickle down effects calculated in, the net effect for the donor (and the taxpayer funding this) is negative. And the same subsidy could produce much more positive results, in a more direct way, improving the lifes of much more people, when spent on job creating programs like infrastructure upgrades, of course.


[ Parent ]
I'm even more hardline than you (0.00 / 0)
I don't watch or support industry of spoiled children in any manner.  They want $100 and up for anyone to see their product.

"Oh. My. God. .... We're doomed." -- Paul Krugman
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.c...">http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.c...">http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.c...


[ Parent ]
I don't disagree, but it remains true that they *get* $100 for people to (4.00 / 3)
see their product. I tend to think that the larger problem here is the over-investment that professional sports create, or at least stoke, in a dishonest American mythology. It's the fantasy of pure competition that as Paul rightly points out, doesn't ever exist, at least not in a larger American economic sense. Something keeps folks buying those $100 tickets, and I have to wonder if a lot of that willingness doesn't come directly out of the phobias that underlie an economic system devoid of real safety net. It strikes me that there's really a very dark need for validation, even if it's secondhand, fleeting validation, lurking under all the rituals of celebration.  

[ Parent ]
Studs Terkle Interviews Get At This Very Well (4.00 / 2)
It strikes me that there's really a very dark need for validation, even if it's secondhand, fleeting validation, lurking under all the rituals of celebration.

He was soooo good at letting people talk, and surfacing this sort of stuff, along with much, much more.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
My biggest peeve in terms of (4.00 / 4)
the psychological aspect in the ritual of big time sports is the pre-game military porn, and I do not use the "porn" suffix here lightly. The outrageous dog and pony military worhip show that takes place prior to big games (especially ones at outdoor stadiums) is Military Industrial Complex faux-patriotic propaganda at its worst. When the bomber planes fly overhead in formation, you have to cover your ears, and it rattles every bone and blood cell in your body. I know it's supposed to fill me with American Pride, but it just makes me ill. Of course, I'm one of those freaks who listens to Pacifica Radio and Democracy Now and such, so I have at least some idea what happens on the ground to innocent civilians experiencing the business end of those glorious bombers.

And now more than ever in history, the Military Industrial Complex lives off of public welfare teat. Sure, the privatization of our military actually makes our armed forces less efficient, costlier in both money and lives, and makes our troops less safe. But we won't talk about that, will we?


[ Parent ]
Hmm, what do porn, today's military, and organized sports have in common? (4.00 / 1)
They're all grossly distorted and unnatural bastardizations of activities that in their more natural state are quite real and normal (i.e. sex, self-defense and the competitive urge), aggressively persued by their practitioners for profit and power, and sold to the public by exploiting their fears, weaknesses, insecurities and often impossible to satisfy (by more natural means) cravings. There's only so much money to be made by selling people what they really need and most genuinely want, and people who want much more money inevitably resort to manufacturing and selling these unnatural distortions to a public that is increasingly dissatisfied with its normal needs and wants (a dissatisfaction that is both manufacturered by these purveyers of profitable distortion, and arguably made inevitable by the professional, social and financial pressures of the world that they've created).

We are a society of junkies, for one unnatural, unhealthy and unnecessary product or another.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
I don't know if it's "dark" (0.00 / 0)
I think it's sad, really, millions of people, mostly men, who even if they're not fully or consciously aware of it or at least willing to admit it, feel both empty enough inside, and not manly enough, that they feel the need to make up for these feelings of emptiness and male inadequacy by becoming active sports fans, and believe that such active passivity actually accomplishes that. Or, they fear what their male peers (and perhaps women) would think of them if they didn't do this. And, of course, sports promoters and the media understand this dynamic very well, and exploit it masterfully.

It's not that sports, per se, are bad, in either a participant or spectator sense. They're not. I used to enjoy watching some sports regularly, and still catch as much of the Olympics when they're going on. But there's a difference between watching (or engaging in) a sport for the satisfaction that it gives you, and doing so in order to fool yourself into believing that it makes you a tougher, manlier or more "real" person. And it's the latter mentality that has taken over organized sports, among fans, and among those who profit from them.

And it's literally no different from the mentality that has pushed the country rightward, at least in terms of "gut feelings", if not also in policy preferences (which have actually shifted leftward), this opportunistic preying upon the insecurities and fears of ordinary people who are ill-equipped to intellectually handle the complexities and frightening transformations of modernity, for profit and power. Astroturfing teabagging = organized sports cultism.

And it's no coincidence that astroturfing is a sports-originated term.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Not a buzz kill at all. (4.00 / 3)
I just wish more people would see that the answer lies in getting actively involved in fighting Big Sports Welfare by participating in these citizens groups and not by simply taking the hands-off approach of "I won't buy tickets and I won't watch on TV". Your tax dollars are funneling in regardless.

One reason there'll be an NFL lockout (4.00 / 1)
is that the NFL's broadcasting contract is guaranteed -- that is, they'll be getting about $1 billion (I think this is the DirecTV deal) even if they don't play any games.  And, of course, if they lock out the players, they won't have to spend any of that $1 billion on player salaries.

Now, DirecTV must have known what they were doing when they signed that contract -- they were basically handing the NFL a huge club with which to bust the NFLPA.  It reminds me of the big UFCW strike a few years ago in Southern California, in which big grocery store chains that weren't being struck, IIRC, helped set up a bust-the-union fund to keep the struck grocery stores' cashflow going during the strike.

It's perfectly legal for companies to do that stuff.  But if the workers on strike set up a picket-line at one of the companies that's providing that kind of crucial financial support, essentially bankrolling the war against the workers?  That's an unfair labor practice under Federal law -- no secondary pickets.  And if workers see what's happening to their brothers and sisters in the grocery strike of NFLPA lockout want to go on strike to protest their own employer providing that kind of support, or doing business with a company that's in on the conspiracy?  Also illegal.

Sad that Employee Free Choice is in such terrible shape now, since the terrible state of union elections is just the tip of the iceberg where the anti-worker regime is concerned.


No doubt they're prepping the "Un-American" media campaign (0.00 / 0)
against these people, because organized male sports are right up there with god, guns and gay-bashing in terms of their appeal to the male reptillian brain, i.e. your average wingnut voter. They've long ago figured out how to appeal to these knuckle-draggers, preying upon their insecurities, prejudices, weaknesses, gullibilities and cravings, to make them their bad faith allies in crime against the rest of the country (and themselves, ultimately).

Question: How do you turn a man into your unwitting slave?

Answer: Convince him that a gay athiest communist wants to take away his guns and force him to become a ballerina and have sex with him.

Ok, I'm hyperbolizing, but only in the specifics, not in the essence of what's going on here, in terms of how rich corporate assholes have turned millions of Americans into their unnatural allies as they screw the country--including these allies--by conning them.

And it's going to happen with government subsidies of sports.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


Perhaps it wouldn't happen (0.00 / 0)
If we could quit alienating our natural allies by engaging in rhetorical culture wars. You see they would give a different answer to your question and to them it would be just as meaningful as yours was to you.  But when all was said and done, a lot of people would be pissed at each other.

 

"Oh. My. God. .... We're doomed." -- Paul Krugman
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.c...">http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.c...">http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.c...


[ Parent ]
How am I (0.00 / 0)
"alienating our natural allies by engaging in rhetorical culture wars"? By posting a true comment on a blog read by several thousand people, few of whom are the types that I'm talking about? Is this what you're suggesting, that we pull our punches or "monitor what we say", so as to not piss off all those "real Americans"?

I sense that I've struck a nerve with you. Good. I completely agreed with Obama's comments about how people retreat to guns and religion when they lose their jobs and feel alienated from the modern world. They have a choice. Either end the self-pity and projected anger and join the modern world constructively, or relinquish the right to be taken seriously.

When these people stop viewing the likes of Limbaugh and Palin as heros, is when I'll stop posting such comments. Until then, I'll call them out as the fools that they are.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
And rephrasing (0.00 / 0)
Hostility is the tool of ignorance.

You make the suggestion that everyone who goes to church or hunts supports Palin and Limbaugh.  That alone makes you look as ignorant as a tea-bagger.  But you repetitively choose that course.  How is your belligerence constructive?  I think that most people outside of the progressive movement would see your statements as inflammatory and self-defeating.  But, if you see it as constructive, well, so be it.

My only suggestion was, maybe progressives could learn to work with people who don't agree with them on every issue.  

I sense that I've struck a nerve with you. Good.

You don't really strike a nerve on me.   I just see you as a frustrated person lashing out indiscriminately at those you feel are not as intellectually evolved as you.  If the only place you talk like this is on a blog, then what does it hurt.  But if you talk to your acquaintances like this, I wonder how many of them try to avoid you.  

Take care my friend.  

"Oh. My. God. .... We're doomed." -- Paul Krugman
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.c...">http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.c...">http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.c...


[ Parent ]
You make the same classic logical mistake (0.00 / 0)
that Obama's many critics made when he made that comment, where you misinterpret the irrefutable assertion that SOME people turn to guns and religion out of frustration (with government, modernity, their relationships, whatever) to mean that ALL people who like guns and are religious do so out of frustration. So forgive me if I sound condescending, because this sort of simplistic mis-thinking is not how we defeat the other side. Nor is pandering to people who do like guns and are religious. Can you really not see the difference between these two remarks, or do you literally not believe the former, far more limited one?

I think that at best, you're unintentionally missing the point and lashing out at what you clearly appear to believe is some elitist egghead cabal against working class "real" people (such as yourself), which is just the flip side of the same stereotypical coin that you appear to dislike, making you no better than these alleged elitists. But as far as I know, you're deliberately trying to kick up shit in what you should know by now IS an elitist egghead blog, by trying to use its intellectual, fact-based, sophisticated nature against it. Which would actually make YOU the teabagger (i.e. a reality-challenged hater).

Think about that. I'm not putting down working class and/or less educated people, at all. I come from them myself. Nor am I putting down people who like guns and are religious. At all. I'm putting down people from ANY background who deal with their frustrations by lashing out at people and things they don't understand, and/or by retreating into stereotypical behavior like guns and religion for less than sincere reasons. And it's not just guns and religion, obviously. It's also border vigilante groups, survivalist militia groups, and, of course, teabagging. Think about that too.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Also, I'm not a doctrinaire progressive (0.00 / 0)
I'm open to ideas from all sides. Except, I know of none from the right or even center these days worth considering seriously. Do you? If you can think of any, I'm all ears.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
The analogy to England is strained at best (0.00 / 0)
They say that there are 15 soccer teams in London, and that is true, but there are not 15 primeier league teams in London.  But then they argue that there are 'only two baseball teams in New York' and 'no football team in LA'.  A five second google search shows that the latter claim is false, and the second claim can be shown to be false by a simple trip to the Yankees' site.  

The minor leagues and the arena leagues (not to mention leagues in Brazil and the like) are pretty close to analogous to arena football, the IHL and the minor leagues.  

That being said, I would support a bill that would ban subsidies to sports teams, as a condition of the anti-trust exemption.  


Man You Sure Know How To Pick Your Knits! (0.00 / 0)
LA has nothing remotely even AA close to major league football.

Heck, up until the Giants mover there in 1957, San Francisco had the PAC Seals, and the city loved them.  There was a time when minor league sports could really capture the imagination of a decent-sized city.  But that time is no more.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Arena football is as close to an AA or AAA equivalent as exists (0.00 / 0)
My point is that there ARE other professional leagues, and that they do exist in major metropolitan areas.  To count EPL soccer at all levels of play, while only counting the top level of american professional sports is comparing apples to oranges.  

And using false equivalencies in order to establish an otherwise valid conclusion is one thing that I do take seriously.  


[ Parent ]
No, I think major college football is a closer analogue (0.00 / 0)
Certainly in terms of money, there's no comparison between USC and that LA arena league team.  Even UCLA must gross ten times what LA's arena team does.  And UCLA men's basketball is a much bigger deal than an NBA Development League team is, or an old CBA team would have been.  

Incidentally, college sports is probably the only opportunity to use a promotion/relegation system in major US sports.  I'd say college basketball would be the best chance, if they wanted to do it.  The NCAA would play the role of the FA, and you could relegate the bottom team in the Pac-10 to the West Coast Conference or something, and the WCC's champion would join the Pac-10.


[ Parent ]
that's fair (0.00 / 0)
and you have a point there, though I do have the complaint that I really kind of think that college sports should just be abolished, at least in the form that they currently exist.  They are absolutely toxic for our university system.  But that's another complete aside that has nothing to do with this conversation, really.  

Similarly, you could use Divisions i-III for the relegation thing, too


[ Parent ]
Yes and no (0.00 / 0)
The English Premier League is, by most accounts, the top professional soccer league in the world, and 1/4 of the 20 teams in the EPL are from London (Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham, Fulham, and West Ham).  The first three in that last are among the elite of the elite, perennial contenders for the league title.  

In the level immediately below the EPL, the League Championship, there are another 2 London teams (Crystal Palace and Queens Park Rangers), and there are 4 more teams in the level below that and other 2 below that one.

It's a little like the "golden age" of baseball with the Yankees winning the AL every year, the Giants and Dodgers dominating the NL, and the Yankees' top farm team, the Newark Bears, fielding teams better than some major-league teams at the time.

But it's my impression that English professional, team sports pretty much start and end with football, though I suppose county cricket still has fans.  And if you compare all professional sports franchises in American cities to English football clubs, the comparison is closer:  NYC has 2 NFL teams, 2 major-league baseball teams, 3 NHL teams (if you count the Devils), and 2 NBA teams.  That's pretty comparable to London's complement of serious professional sports franchises.


[ Parent ]
Of course, (0.00 / 0)
London accounts for a much larger percentage of England's population than New York does of the US's, too.

[ Parent ]
Yeah, and part of the problem with the comparison (0.00 / 0)
is that top American professional leagues are nearly continent-wide (excluding Mexico), whereas top European leagues are national -- the Scottish and Welsh teams (except for Cardiff and Swansea) don't even play in the FA.

Again, the structure of American college sports is more similar to the structure of European soccer leagues -- clubs that play in regional leagues, but whose existence isn't at all dependent on them.


[ Parent ]
I agree with you, though the emergence of the (0.00 / 0)
Champion's league somewhat muddles that.  Though I guess that makes your college sports analogy even more apt.  

[ Parent ]
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