Externalized Costs: The Free Market's Free Lunch--A Local Case At The Port of Los Angeles

by: Paul Rosenberg

Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 20:31


Two weekends ago I wrote a couple of diaries about the free market as a failed policy and failed idea, as well as Naomi Klein's new book, The Shock Doctrine.  My point was not simply to attack the notion of the free market, but to point out the necessity of doing so as part of a larger struggle for political realignment.  Such a struggle requires more than discrediting old ideas, however.  It requires replacing them--either with new ideas, with the rehabilitation of old ideas, or with some combination of the two.

At my day job, I write a lot about the Port of Los Angeles and its impact on the surrounding communities.  It's an excellent example for what I'm talking about.  The port facilitates the massive importation of consumer goods into the US, which not only involves significant exploitation of workers and the environment abroad, it also takes a terrible toll on the local communities surrounding the ports (Los Angeles and Long Beach) and the regions inland that are heavily impacted by port-related traffic.  Indeed, more people in California die from the pollution generated by goods movement than die from homicides each year.  These aren't industrial accidents I'm talking about.  They are simply the "normal" cost of doing business.  Except, of course, the businesses involved do not pay the costs of doing business.  The public does.

The story on the jump is one I wrote for Random Lengths News that ended up getting supplanted by another.  But it's well suited as an example of a phenomena that is all-pervasive in todays global economy, and it points to how we can start reframing that economy in terms that show what's really going on, and who's really paying the costs of someone else's fabulous wealth.

Paul Rosenberg :: Externalized Costs: The Free Market's Free Lunch--A Local Case At The Port of Los Angeles
TraPac's False Green Front
"Green Growth" Rhetoric Ignores Externalized Costs

As the first of a series of backlogged terminal expansion projects, the TraPac expansion's draft environmental impact report (DEIR) is drawing heightened scrutiny as a test of just how successful the ports' Clean Air Action Plan (CAAP) is likely to be in cleaning up the dirtiest air in the nation.  While the Port of Los Angeles (POLA) is trumpeting its new-found commitment to "green growth," critics have grown increasingly skeptical, dismissing the term as a hollow buzzword at best, and questioning the entire Villaraigosa Administraion.

"They aren't really looking for ways to grow the port green," said Tom Politeo, co-chair of the Sierra Club Harbor Vision Task Force. "They're looking for ways to grow the port with a green motif, a little green fringe here and a green highlight there."

To illuminate the gap between POLA's green rhetoric and the stark reality seen by community and environmental activists, one need only contrast the support for TraPac's DEIR from the Los Angeles Chamber of Commerce (LACC) with criticism from activists on the one hand, and activist support for another aspect of the CAAP on another.

In Politeo's view, piecemeal planning at the terminal level is fundamentally flawed. "There really is no regional analysis of how best to move cargo," he said.  "They're applying 19th and mid-20th century technology to moving cargo in the 21st century that can't be moved that way."

"We need to be investing in a new kind of infrastructure," Politeo stressed, as well as a new kind of analysis.

But the LACC is still all about seeing everything from the individual company's point of view.

In a July 31 column titled "The First Green Growth Test At Ports," LACC President and CEO, Gary Toebben, called the status quo "the worst possible outcome"-a clear indication that the old rhetoric of denial is gone for good-while that evening LACC representative Alexander Pugh praised the TraPac DEIR for "allow[ing] the operator to incorporate environmental features at an incremental cost instead of a crippling one."

"We're already paying crippling costs. It's not the industry that's paying crippling costs," shot back Jon Zerolnick, of the Los Angeles Alliance for a New Economy (LAANE) . Zerolnick is the principle author of a new report, "The Road to Shared Prosperity: The Regional Economic Benefits of the San Pedro Bay Ports' Clean Trucks Program."

Community, labor and environmental groups are strongly supportive of the proposed Clean Trucks Program (CTP) [PDF], which closely reflects proposals that originally came from the community/labor/environmental alliance, the Coalition For Clean and Safe Ports.  LAANE's report explains why, while demonstrating the kind of inclusive perspective that incorporates a genuine, quantified environmental justice standard, as well as labor and community protections. 

That perspective, introduced by British economist Arthur Cecil Pigou in his 1912 book, Wealth and Welfare, revolves around identifying "externalized costs" (like pollution, discrimination, corporate crime, etc.) that businesses force upon society at large or certain subgroups, and devising ways to internalize them, so that goods and services produced reflect all the costs involved in producing and delivering them.

Using this approach, LAANE calculated that the CTP could produce nearly $10 billion in ten years in reduced costs and increased benefits to truckers and their families, local communities and taxpayers at the federal, state and local levels.  Significantly, the costs to industry would be markedly lower (preventing health impacts is cheaper than remedying them), and would ultimately be paid by consumers at barely noticeable rates.  While any one firm could be crushed by such costs if its competitors escaped them, Zerolnick explained, they could easily be borne if everyone internalized costs through the same mechanisms, phased in over several years as the CTP calls for.

While widely accepted in the abstract, other theoretical perspectives have long combined with special interest political power to sideline Pigou's impact. Yet, since the early 1990s, the sheer magnitude in externalized costs, combined with stalled progress in dealing with environmental damage has contributed to renewed interest in Pigou's approach.  His approach is now routinely used by regulatory agencies, such as the California Air Resources Board (CARB) and the South Coast Air Quality Management District (AQMD) for their high-level analysis, though it has yet to trickle down to the level of individual EIRs. 

In 1995, Ralph Estes, an emeritus professor of business at American University in Washington, DC, wrote a paper, "The Public Cost Of Private Corporations," which conservatively estimated total external costs in the U.S. economy at $3.051 trillion, enough to turn a reported $714 billion net profit into a $2.337 trillion net loss. He estimated costs of $329.7 billion for stationary-source air pollution and $10.7 billion for mobile-source air pollution. 

The later, at least, seems extremely low in light of current knowledge.  Last year, [Proposed Emission Reduction Plan for Ports and Goods Movement (March 22, 2006) [PDF]] CARB estimated total externalized costs for goods movement accounting at $19 billion, half of which is in AQMD's jurisdiction.  The port-related share of that-anywhere from $3.5 to $5 billion or more-clearly dwarfs port revenues, much less expenditures to reduce pollution.

As regulators have increasingly come to rely on Pigou's perspective, industry-which profits handsomely from externalizing costs-has fiercely resisted, tugging hard on the ports as well.

In his 2004 report for the Public Policy Institute of California, "California's Global Gateways [PDF]," economist Jon Haveman raised the issue of multiple unpaid, externalized costs:

"Although California's entrepôt status also benefits the gateway regions through increased employment, business profits, and state and local tax revenue, congestion, pollution, and wear and tear on California's highways generated by shippers are costs for which the taxpayers and citizens of California are not compensated. In effect, California is subsidizing economic activity in other states.... promoting California's entrepôt status is not obviously beneficial, but is part of a large and complex policy calculus."

Haveman's analysis quickly caught the attention of the Port Community Advisory Committee, which has since tried in vain to get POLA to follow up and fund studies to clarify that complex calculus-to no avail, as the deaths continue.

"As policy takes years and years to develope, time marches on and all these costs continue to be borne by those in the the communities," Haveman told Random Lengths. "Without considering the externalities, appropriate decisions are unlikely to be made regarding infrastructure development."

It's not just a matter of local air quality, either. "What we're doing is subsidizing the movement of goods great distances, which dramatically increases the carbon footprint to fill consumers' needs."  We could, in effect, be hardwiring ourselves to needlessly generate far more greenhouse gases than necessary for decades into the future.

Further expanding the "inland port" infrastructure in the Inland Empire-a necessary consequence of TraPac expansion-without analyzing it in terms of externalized costs may only make things worse in the long run, critics have argued.  It's an example of off-port land-use impacts that are ignored in TraPac's EIR.

"The costs are real whether we want to acknowledge them or not." Zerolnick said. "We either pay for them as community members and tax payers. Or we pay for them in a nickel on a DVD player, or a quarter on a flat-screen TV."

"Once you get shippers to pay their way," Haveman added, "more sensible carbon decisions and more sensible employment decisions will result."

Finally, Politeo concluded, "As long as we're mitigating 18th century technology, we're not going to get anywhere."


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San Pedro (0.00 / 0)
You mentioned that growth at the port has cause damage to the local communities around the port, and you mention Los Angeles and Long Beach.  The cities closes to the port, however, are Wilmington and San Pedro.  I'm curious to hear your thoughts on how port growth is impacting those communities.  My family lives in Pedro and there is a very large push to "develop" the waterfront and revitalize downtown.  How do you think those efforts are tied to the issues you raise here of "green growth?"  If local economic development is tied to further growth at the port (green or not), might delaying development by fighting for greener development have any negative impact on local economic developments?  How should we think about these kinds of trade-offs?


It's Implicit (0.00 / 0)
First off, we publish in San Pedro, and circulate exclusively to the harbor area--San Pedro, Wilmington, Harbor City, Harbor Gateway, RPV, Carson, and West Long Beach.  So the piece is written for people who know that it's talking about them.  For people outside the area, however, those names don't mean much.  The ports of LA and Long Beach are pretty damn hard to miss, however.

Second, the development issues are incredibly complex.  Basically, development is always complex because the tendency is for the lower-income people to get shafted, no matter what.  But here there are all sorts of complicating factors layered on top of that.  We tend to write about them in a fashion that deals with these tensions and contradictions in a way that reflects both these background tensions and the concrete forces in the community as well.

The point I am making implicitly in this piece is that we need to do a lot more accounting of these externalized costs at all levels of planning, not just the higher levels, and if we did that, then the results of planning throughout the process would be more just.

It's simply not very useful to talk about "economic development" as if that phrase had a simple meaning that covers everything.  Building a lot of cheap retail that competes with all sorts of similar businesses elsewhere and is mostly low-wage jobs without benefits is one style of "economic development."  Building mostly public infrastructure--parks, museums, open space, a marine research park, etc.--and relying on that to attract residential development, which will in turn drive more retail away from the waterfront and more clustered around downtown is, to my mind, a preferrable form of development.  But it, too, needs to be done in a planning framework that preserves housing for people who would otherwise be priced out of the market--and then asked to commute back for low-wage jobs!

In short, you're not just asking for a whole 'nother diary on that.  You're asking for a whole series.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Thanks (0.00 / 0)
for your comments.  I knew it wasn't the appropriate forum for these discussions, but I got excited when someone posted about something I cared about.  I know there are some interesting South Bay blogs out there.  Are there any other blogs  you write for or read that follow these issues closely?  Keep up the good work at Random Lengths News.  It is a truly indispensable source of local news and analysis.

[ Parent ]
If I understand you . . . (0.00 / 0)
You're saying that our current corporatist economy externalizes the cost of pollution (among other things) and is therefore flawed.

And we have to do something about it.

Good example, I'm not from California but I appreciate this problem being brought to my attention.


The Larger Point Is That It's Omnipresent (0.00 / 0)
Free market theory supposes that externalities don't exist.  Modified versions suppose that they are small and relatively rare. But this example shows that they are huge--they dwarf the operating budgets of the ports, much less their profits.  Yet, cleanining up those costs would run much less per dollar.  The problem is, they can't do it easily for reasons of incentives historically structured into the system.  Once you start exploiting people, it's damn hard to stop.  It's become habitual. It's much easier to fight than to adapt.

Now, there are many, many other examples of this, that are just not so concentrated.  For example, every time you're stuck in traffic and waste time because of it, that's an externalized cost of traffic congestion.  People pay that cost in the time they're forced to spend like that, and that time has a dollar value--as witnessed by people's willingness to trade time for money.  So clearly, the loss of that time represents a substantial loss of money.  We could save a good deal of money in different ways in different situations.  But first we have to do a better job of tracking such costs, in order to understand them.

An example in the other direction is also evident in San Pedro.  We have an artists' community that does what such communities do most everywhere--their increase the value of property until the rising rents drive them out of the area.  They produce an externalized benefit, which only serves to hurt them, except perhaps for one or two who may have managed to buy their space, rather than simply lease it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Does It? (0.00 / 0)
It seems to me that this is just a situation where a business is trying to make other people pay for the cost of doing business.

If a business routinely stole its materials from someone else, it would be shifting the cost of doing business onto them.

Or alternatively it could refuse to pay its workers after they had finished a job. 

That some corporations are successful in shifting the cost of doing business onto the rest of us isn't a failure of free market theory.  It's a failure of our government.

After all, I thought the whole reason free market types likes property rights is that they are supposed to help protect against externalities, like in the tragedy of the commons.


[ Parent ]
"Bored Now" (0.00 / 0)


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Depressing (0.00 / 0)
I can't believe you're so sensitive to even the lightest of criticisms about your arguments.  You build up a straw man and get upset when someone points it out.

[ Parent ]
I'm with Paul (4.00 / 1)
Neoliberal economics zeroes out costs which can't be measured in dollars and calls them externalities. This makes their math neater, but means that their math can't adequately reflect reality.

Good economic practices say you should buy low and sell high.  What could be lower than zero? So the pressure on businesspeople is tremendous to not measure the cost of things and to pass those unmeasured costs on to nobody (i.e. the community). To the extent that businesses can influence government policy, they arrange things so that making other pay is part of the legal framework.

Paul is correct because any example of the serious impact of externalities shows that "free market theory" doesn't encompass the reality it purports to describe.

Barry


[ Parent ]
I'm Not The Only One To Point This Out, But You Just Don't Know What You're Talking About (4.00 / 1)
That some corporations are successful in shifting the cost of doing business onto the rest of us isn't a failure of free market theory.  It's a failure of our government.

In other words, you need effective government regulation to make "the Free Market" work.

But that's not "the Free Market." That's a regulated market.  And it doesn't matter how many times you claim that a regulated market is a free market, because saying it 10,000 times doesn't make it any truer than saying it once.

And that's why, just like Willow--also a Rosenberg--I'm "Bored now!"

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Interesting (0.00 / 0)
For someone who posted a diary talking about the cognitive development of someone towards being able to see other people's points of view, you really are having a hard time understanding my point of view.  Given how clearly I've laid it out, I can only conclude that you're purposefully misunderstanding me.  For what reason, I don't know.

[ Parent ]
I Understand Your Point Of View Perfectly (0.00 / 0)
All evidence is irrelevant, because it doesn't apply to your ideal, but only to distortions of it.  The very fact that it can't be attained makes it impervious to criticism.

Got it!

How 'bout them Unicorns?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
faith based economics (4.00 / 1)
I can't believe I am going to do this, but I am going to copy a term that I think Andrew Sullivan uses for Christians who he calls Christianists. I think one should coin a term for all the economics as religion types out there. Economic fundamentalist doesn't do them justice because it doesn't effectively capture how they re impervious to actual evidence based economic anlaysis. The reason I believe believe i m using sullivan is that he is one of the faith based economic types. ironic.

[ Parent ]
New Economics, Politics & Media (4.00 / 1)
Paul,

Your title "Externalized Costs: The Free Market's Free Lunch" sums up a whole lot of what's wrong with our economic system and dominant theories of economics.  I read it just after reading some reviews of Riane Eisler's "The Real Wealth of Nations: Creating a Caring Economy."  They dovetailed together nicely. 

According to a review in Stanford Social Innovation Review written by Mal Warwick, former chair of the Social Venture Network, Eisler's book:

sets forth "six foundations for a caring economic system": 1) a "full-spectrum economic map" that encompasses the households, unpaid, natural and illegal economies, as well as the traditional market and government economies; 2) a set of cultural beliefs and institutions that shifts the reigning social paradigm from domination to partnerships; 3) caring economic rules, policies and practices for business and government that meet basic human needs, direct technological developments to life-sustaining applications and consider effects on future generations; 4) inclusive and accurate economic indicators that reject benchmarks like the GDP, which grows larger with every massive oil spill and every bullet used in war; 5) relationships between economic and social structures that don't result in the concentration of economic assets and power at the top; and 6) an evolving economic theory of what Eisler calls "partnership": human interaction that goes beyond capitalism and socialism to recognize the essential economic value of caring for ourselves, others and nature.

This perspective is very much in sync with the "dignitarianism" you've written about in earlier posts, and with the primary themes of your current post, which are also powerfully presented in books like Peter Barnes' "Capitalism 3.0" and "Natural Capitalism" by Paul Hawken, Amory Lovins, and Hunter Lovins.

There's also a growing body of economic and legal analysis focused on "commons-related" issues and "externalities" related to communication systems and policies and the Internet, in particular.

I can't help but think that it would be very valuable to develop an ongoing online discussion aimed at creating:

1) a detailed and integrated progressive platform built around these fundamental "dignitarian" principles for systemic reform;

2) a web site that aggregates and helps develop and integrate multimedia materials (articles, podcasts, videos, etc.) to help present this platform and related background material to the public in a powerful, digestible and paradigm-shifting way.

The raw materials are mostly out there already, on authors' web sites, various progressive blogs (e.g., I just discovered a great mix of author interviews at Peter Ellman's http://intrepidliber...).  But these materials, authors, etc. aren't pulled together at one site whose purpose is to turn them into a united message and which has enough person-power behind it to manifest that purpose at the desired level of potency.

My sense is that a traditional blog structure is not sufficient for this task, partly because it's too chronological in structure and tends to have a somewhat different purpose and focus than what I'm talking about here.  A blog could be part of it, but it would probably also need some elements of a Wiki, and perhaps other formats and tools.

Clearly you've got a lot to say on these subjects, Paul, as do other OL frontpagers, diarists and commenters. 

I view something like this as the edge of one spear that can help pierce through the toxic media fog that most Americans have to slog through to get a sense that there are very practical solutions to what ails this country.  As I see it, the focus would be much more on laying out a positive (dare I say inspiring) political and economic vision, rather than on the gazillion things that are screwed up in our current system (though some of the latter would be necessary and helpful). 

There are brilliant and inspiring thinkers and doers out there.  Bringing them and their ideas together in one "progressive portal" sounds like a worthy project.  In some respects it would be a "virtual" think tank, whose job was to select, present and help integrate the best progressive policy thinking out there.  But, unlike traditional think tanks, it would not be DC-centric, and would retain the democratic, open-access nature of blogs and Wikis.  In doing so, it could provide the netroots with increased influence in policy debates, since it would give us a comprehensive, integrated and well documented and researched set of policies we could bring with us when we demand a seat at the table.

If anyone thinks something like this already exists, please tell me about it in a comment.


Please Note (0.00 / 0)
. . . that "Capitalism 3.0" by Peter Barnes and his earlier "Who Owns the Sky?" and "Natural Capitalism" by Paul Hawken, Amory Lovins, and Hunter Lovins are not nearly as critical of the idea of the free market and capitalism as Paul's posts.  They believe the theories needed to be updated, not replaced.  Peter Barnes in particular would be probably be a leftish "Liberaltarian" in the model described by Cato's Brink Lindsay: http://www.cato.org/...

For instance, he references Pigou Club founder Greg Mankiw on tax policy:

"Tax reform also offers the possibility of win-win bargains. The basic idea is simple: Shift taxes away from things we want more of and onto things we want less of. Specifically, cut taxes on savings and investment, cut payroll taxes on labor, and make up the shortfall with increased taxation of consumption. Go ahead, tax the rich, but don't do it when they're being productive. Tax them instead when they're splurging--by capping the deductibility of home-mortgage interest and tax incentives for purchasing health insurance. And tax everybody's energy consumption. All taxes impose costs on the economy, but at least energy taxes carry the silver lining of encouraging conservation--plus, because such taxes exert downward pressure on world oil prices, foreign oil monopolies would wind up getting stuck with part of the bill. Here again, fusionism is already in the air. Gore has proposed a straight-up swap of payroll taxes for carbon taxes, while Harvard economist (and former chairman of George W. Bush's Council of Economic Advisers) Greg Mankiw has been pushing for an increase in the gasoline tax."


[ Parent ]
You Consitently Equate "Markets" With "Free Markets" (0.00 / 0)
And I get really tired of constantly pointing this out.

Markets are very good as massively-parallel information processers.

Markets are very bad as moral weathervanes.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I'm sick (0.00 / 0)
Of you equaling "free market" with today's corporation dominated economy.  You keep bashing today's economy, which has serious flaws in its legal framework, and pretend that the problem is this "free market theory."

The problem is a failure to hold corporations accountable. 


[ Parent ]
Saying It Doesn't Make It So (0.00 / 0)
"Free markets" are markets without constraints.  Such markets do not exist in the real world.  Markets are always constrainted.  The question is only "Why?" and "How?"

I therefore have two separate criticisms, which you persistent misrepresent by confusing them together.  One criticism is of how markets have heen consistently abused.  The other criticism is of the illusory ideal, which is such a preposterous decoy.

The fact that you are obsessed with an ideal that doesn't exist is your problem, not mine.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The Disagreement (0.00 / 0)
You and I take fundamentally different views of what the phrase "free market" means.  But that aside . . .

I agree with you that free markets DO NOT exist in the real world.

They are arguably unsustainable in the real world, at the very least ever since humanity adopted agriculture.

Markets in today's world ARE constrained when you have government.  And yes, the questions are "WHY?" and "HOW?" but also, fundamentally, "FOR WHO?"  Who benefits from the vast majority of constraints in today's market?  Big corporations and their shareholders.

This diary clearly demonstrated one problem with our current market system.  But it has not demonstrated, nor has anything else I've seen from you demonstrated, why these problems are CAUSED BY the ideal of a "free market."

If I can offer an analogy.  An advocate of civil rights and racial equality in the early 20th century could clearly argue against Jim Crow laws and segregation, AND the underlying idea in many peoples' minds that some races were inherently inferior.  The flawed opinions of the latter produced the flawed public policies of the former.

As far as I see today's politics-

1- We have a Republican core of social conservatives and foreign policy hawks who don't give a damn about domestic economic policy that provides profits for big business.  If anything the military industrial complex that profits from the GOP overlaps with the foreign policy hawks.

2- A big business wind that provides the cash to the GOP and could care less about "ideals."  They care about whatever marketing will work for them.

3- A small but important segment of "anti-establishment" voters who used to seal the deal on the Republican Majority.  Perot voters, independents, people who dislike "bigness" of all forms-big government, big business, etc.  Many do like the "ideal" of a "free market."  But while you wish to try to convince them to give up their "ideal," I believe the Democrats could provide a better marketing attempting than big business Republican in favor of the argument that Democratic policies, not Republican policies, are better for the "free market."  I will admit that this would require some policy changes too, but arguably for the best.  These voters have been ignored by Democrats except for the last few cycles because Democrats instead try to focus on former Reagan Democrats/Southern Democrats who poll as economic liberals, but are also decidedly socially conservative.


[ Parent ]
Do You Have ANY Evidence At All To Support Your Claims??? (0.00 / 0)
I have to admit it's incredibly strange to have someone arguing for the non-existent ideal of unicorns "the free market" on the basis of the practical utility of convincing purported anti-establishement swing voters to join the Democratic Party coalition.

But, accepting that bit of surrealism in everyday life for the sake of argument, do you have any evidence at all that (a) "Perot voters, independents, people who dislike 'bigness' of all forms-big government, big business, etc." form a unfied swing block that gives the GOP its power--as opposed to being a hodge-podge thrown together for the sake of your argument, and (b) that "Many do like the 'ideal' of a 'free market.'" as opposed to the plain old-fashioned populist rhetoric of "standing up for the little guy," which is what the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party has always been about?

I would find it particularly interesting if you had solid evidence that Perot voters are deeply attached to the ideal of unicorns "the Free Market," since Perot was a strong economic nationalist who ran strongly in opposition to NAFTA, and it was Clinton/Gore's support for NAFTA that was one of the powerful factors that drove Perot supporters to the GOP in the first place.

I will admit that this would require some policy changes too, but arguably for the best.

In other words, screw the Democratic Party base once again in order to please populist GOP voters by giving them something they don't want.

How, exactly is this different from Clinton/Gore in 1993/94 handing us 12 years of GOP control of the House?

Sorry, dude, but given a choice between "the Free Market" and unicorns, I'm stikcing with the unicorns every time.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
One more time (0.00 / 0)
First off, let's be clear.  We both agree that a free market is not currently in existence.  And it is arguably not possible in the real world.  But to attack it as a "unicorn" and therefore something that must be discarded is absurd.  Ideals are useful even if they are unreachable because they give us something to work towards.  Something to aim for.  Something with which to measure current reality. 

So far, you have failed to show why the ideal is dangerous.  You claim that it gives support to our current corporatist economy; I am simply questioning this claim.  So far, you haven't backed up your claim.  Instead, you're playing fast with words and throwing questions back at me.

On the topic of Perot voters swinging to the Republican Party: "Three's a Crowd: The Dynamic of Third Parties, Ross Perot, and Republican Resurgence" by Walter J. Stone and Ronald B. Rapoport.  I would argue that it is the most comprehensive study of Perot voters.

On the topic of ""Many do like the 'ideal' of a 'free market.'" as opposed to the plain old-fashioned populist rhetoric of "standing up for the little guy," which is what the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party has always been about?"

I've never said that the ideal of a free market is incompatible with the rhetoric of standing up for the little guy.  In fact it is compatible and it formed the foundation of the Democratic Party: Equal rights for all, special privilege for none.

The NAFTA debate is a clear example where values trump numbers.  The whole idea of an elaborate system of red tape and new transnational agencies overseeing a trade agreement designed to aid corporations can certainly be cast as undermining the ideal of a free market.  That a number of policy wonks and economists were claiming it to be good for the economy doesn't mean that intuitively a number of voters aren't going to distrust it.

Ironically, after I made clear that I think the failure of the Democratic Party has been due to trying to appeal to the populist GOP base voters, you attack me and claim that I want to screw the Democratic Party base in order to please populist GOP voters.

You are not even trying to listen to me, you are purposefully distorting my words so you can continue to bash a straw man.


[ Parent ]
The Burden of Proof Is On YOU! (0.00 / 0)
First off, let's be clear.  We both agree that  Communism is not currently in existence.  And it is arguably not possible in the real world.  But to attack it as a "unicorn" and therefore something that must be discarded is absurd.  Ideals are useful even if they are unreachable because they give us something to work towards.  Something to aim for.  Something with which to measure current reality.

So far, you have failed to show why the ideal is dangerous.

Because you reject all historical proof as irrelevant, since it doesn't apply to Communism, but only to how Communism has been distorted.  By your logic Communism can never be shown to be at fault.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Unless (0.00 / 0)
You were to show fundamental flaws in the logic of the ideal of Communism. 

[ Parent ]
There Are No Flaws In The Logic of the Ideal of Communism (0.00 / 0)
which makes it superior to the "Free Market," in one respect.

But, alas, it's a hollow victory, since it gets done in anyway by the flaws in human nature, which it unfortunately fails to fully account for.

< Homer Voice>Do'h!</Homer Voice>

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
again (0.00 / 0)
exactly. as someone wrote elsewhere the two people most a like in the way in which they approach the theorectical ideal are a communist and a libertarian. they are practically the same in terms of how they argue.

[ Parent ]
Shudder (0.00 / 0)
"...it is arguably not possible in the real world.  But to attack it as a "unicorn" and therefore something that must be discarded is absurd.  Ideals are useful even if they are unreachable because they give us something to work towards.  Something to aim for.  Something with which to measure current reality. "

This is like saying, "I like my tea hot, so we should outlaw Fire Departments."

Barry


[ Parent ]
It IS Unfair... To Unicorns! (0.00 / 0)
Millions of people have died in the name of free markets.

Unicorns, not so much.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
no its like sayin (0.00 / 0)
we should try to use communism in the real world because although its not possible its a useful tool- the question the poster never answers is for whom is it useful and for what purpose

[ Parent ]
As a Note . . . (0.00 / 0)
"Markets are very bad as moral weathervanes."

To me, your stance is to just accepting the current market as the "free market" and throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

It's as if you're writing in the 1850s, attacking the institution of slavery, and blaming slavery on the theory of the free market.

When in reality the success of the Republican Party in uniting the North against slavery came from focusing on how slavery failed to live up to the ideal of a free market economy of free laborers.


[ Parent ]
Your Ignorance Is Boundless (0.00 / 0)
When they first started out, the Abolitionists were hated by the Northern free-traders of their day.  New England's economy was tightly tied to that of the South.  It was the ultra-exploited mill girls who were the early white mass recruits to the Abolitionist cause, precisely because they, too, were exploited by the system, and had no allegience to it, but instead had allegience to a moral vision.

It took several decades for the Northern elites to come around, and they came around precisely because the Southern slaveocracy was unwilling to share power, but insisted on imposing itself on the rest of the nation.  It was the over-reaching of the Soutehrn slaveocracy--prompted, of course, by the growing influence of Abolitionism that directly challenged their moral authority--that served to consolidate the Northern vote for the Republican Party.  And even well into the Civil War, abolishing slavery was not a war aim--subduing Southern rebellion was.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Excuse me? (0.00 / 0)
You need to learn to be more civil in your discussions.  Please stop attacking my intelligence.

Abolitionism did start off opposes to some Northern economic interests, both pro-free trade and anti-free trade.  But my entire point was that they were not successful until they were able to expand their appeal to a number of Northern voters who in their gut valued the ideal of the free market.  Particularly former Northern Democrats in the Midwest who fundamentally opposed the expansion of slavery because it conflicted with their ideal of independent and free laborers.

You're absolutely right that ending slavery was not an original war aim.  Neither was ending slavery an original political aim of the Republicans in 1860.  Stopping its expansion was.  In other words, it was a moderation of the abolitionist cause.  And this moderation enabled the Republican Party to appeal to more voters.  That the Southerners in the Democratic Party were over reaching was of course an additional factor.


[ Parent ]
I Know What Your Point Was, But You Miss Mine (4.00 / 1)
It was the Abolitionists--and, ultimately, of course, the black slaves and escaped slaves--who drove the process, piercing the slaveocracy's veener of reasonableness.  This was a very long and far-reaching process.

In the 1810s, African colonization was a bipartisan, trans-ideological fantasy--remarkably analagous to "Free Trade" during the Clinton/Gingrich Era--and it was the northern free blacks who played a critical role in mobilizing against colonization, and sparking the white abolitionist movement into life (white abolitionism already existed, but it had declined significantly as a force, and was not really a movment until this turning point).  This, in turn, eventually lead to the slaveowners being forced onto the defensive--even though most of their defenses came from northerners--which produced an apologist literature that was heavily reliant on the Bible, from about 1830 onward.

The formation of Free Soil ideology--prior to the formation of the Republican Party--was certainly significant.  But it was not initiated out of a cutting edge idealism.  It was a reaction to the increasing militancy and power-grabbing attempts of the South.  Locating this extremism in the Democratic Party completely obscures the vast nature of the extra-normal power grab that the slaveocracy was mounting, of which Bloody Kansas and the Dredd Scott decision are the most high-profile examples.  It was this threat--to box in the North, and force it to accept the spread of slavery--that forced the Northerner's hand, and finally brought them around.  The Free Soil ideology was a rationalization of the position they found themselves in.  It was a brilliant invention, but it was a reaction to an historical impasse that had been created by the actions of others, spanning several generations.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I Was Trying To Do Something Along Those Lines Seven Years Ago (0.00 / 0)
Back in 2000, when the DNC was here in LA, I joined the local Indymedia collective, and contributed a lot of writing and editing to provide background for the demonstrations, to give a sense of the intellectual depth behind the protests, which naturally was a good deal deeper than any of the corporate reporters realized.  I stayed involved in the local collective for more than a year afterwards, trying to do and/or encourage similar efforts and collaborations with other folks in other Indymedia sites, but there was just too much ego, tyranny of structurelessness and the hidden hand of trust fund babies to contend with.

Plus, of course, the tedious ranting, conspiracy theorists, and what-have-you.  But they were relatively easy to ignore.

My sense is that now the time may finally be ripe, or getting close to it.  But it takes some serious mulling over.  I think a blog would be very important as part of such a site, whatever else it looks like, because there's a desperate need for creating community if you want to keep people engaged in this sort of work long-term.  I'd certainly be interested in discussing it further.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
We hosted Peter Barnes to tell us about Cap 3.0 and... (0.00 / 0)
...I found his take a interesting and provocative. Certainly the idea of the commons should be useful.

More needs to be done to educate the citizenry as to the corporate exploitation of the 'commons' for their profit at the expense of society as a whole and Barnes ideas point in the right direction.

Many in the Mountain West are currently finding out what impact corporatist exploitation of the commons means in actual practice.....

A nice lake of toxic mud created on your property line, or actually on your property, courtesy of 'regulated' methane drilling.

I'm willing to bet the people who've had this happen to them have a slightly different take on...

'Big Government and it's inherent evils...'

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


Bankruptcies and law suits (0.00 / 0)
Businesses, of course, can be confromted and forced to pay some of these external costs.  It can be done through regulatuion and it can also be done through law suits. 

Too often, however, businesses choose to avoid paying these costs by declaring strategic bankruptcies.  I rather vaguely remember Johns Mansville in the 1960s declaring a string of bankruptcies as it lost a string of liability law suits concerning asbestos.  The problem is that sloppy handling of a dangerous product back in the 1940s and 1950s caused real harm.  Declaring bankruptcy shifted the costs from the manufacturer to the victims and society as a whole.

That's not a good thing.

Tort "reform" is just another way for institutionalizing the ability of big businesses to avoid paying external costs.  It may sound great but it simply shifts the burden from the corporations to the victims and society as a whole.  What is it with some people who are neither rich nor powerful who find this a satisfying conclusion?  Fear?  What I call a wannabe attitude (they suck up to the rich and support their interests in the hopes of someday being rich at the expense of their current interests)?

God knows how the whole idea of shifting masnufacturing to countries with no environmental and labor standards works in the overall scheme of things.

Sustainable growth does a lot better job of passing on costs rather than problems.  Just like the asbestos in the ships made for WW II, a little care now can save oceans of problems.


The Lawsuits Have Already Begun (0.00 / 0)
So far, however, there have been no public trials.  Sealed settlements, perhpas.  But those don't do much to change policy.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
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