Liberals And Conservatives Switch Places--Sort Of (The Political Duality Of Rep and Dem, Pt 3b)

by: Paul Rosenberg

Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 02:21


In this diary, I want to begin the the analysis of why and how liberals are constrained in their political actions in a manner directly parallel to how conservatives are constrained in their policy analysis.

I'm going to do so by taking yet another pass at a historical review of how we got here.  What can I say?  I'm a historical junkie.  It's my mission to help counteract cultural and historical amnesia, America's national disease.

First I'll present a materialist run-though of the major forces involved and that will set up the point of entry for talking about how big lie fantasy conservatism made the scene, and how difficult it has been for liberals and democrats to adjust to it.

Paul Rosenberg :: Liberals And Conservatives Switch Places--Sort Of (The Political Duality Of Rep and Dem, Pt 3b)
The Material Foundations of New Deal Liberalism-Rise and Fall

We begin with a brief overview from a conventional materialist perspective-how economic interests drove both the creation of the New Deal consensus, and then tore it apart. Economic liberalism thrived because it appeared politically necessary to a large segment of the capitalist ruling class in the wake of the Great Depression.  Laissez-faire had been discredited, and while some segments of the ruling class were quite enamored with Hitler and Mussolini, the advent of WWII closed off that possibility, while the strength of the Soviet Union in surviving WWII indicated the long-term threat of a viable political-economic alternative.  Therefore, the welfare state had tremendous political utility in the eyes of large-scale capitalists, who had the resources to pay a share of the costs, and pass most of that onto their customs.  Thus, social insurance for their workers was economic insurance for them.  And so long as this seemed like a good deal, a dominant segment of the capitalist class supported the grand bargain of the New Deal.

However, there were significant segments of the capitalist class that never went along with this, and it was among these other segments that conservative movement gestated while largely out of power.  Not incidentally, the dominant New Deal governing coalition actually subsidized these dissident conservative elites in a variety of ways.  One was through military spending that largely moved money, jobs and advanced technology away from the old industrial core, and out into the geographic periphery.  (See The Rise of the Gunbelt: The Military Remapping of Industrial America .)  Another was through infrastructure spending that boosted the growth of businesses that often had little or no investment in the welfare state, aside from paying payroll takes.  In particular, the growth of the Interstate highway system boosted the growth of dispersed cities and suburbs where businesses and relatively affluent residents set up shop, leaving behind older, more expensive to maintain cities and regions with more recent influxes of black and white southerners whose needs for social services were significantly higher than the populations they replaced.  With these trends already well under way by the early 1960s, the Civil Rights Movement and Anti-War Movement of the 1960s then created conditions that made a rightwing presidential electoral coalition possible.

But it was not until the stagflation of the early 1970s, amid the first Oil Shocks that the dominant capitalist sectors that had originally bought into the New Deal bargain began to seriously question it, and look for ways to back out.  This happened primarily on the labor front, via rollbacks, union-busting and deindustrialization, as Democratic control of the House significantly impeded more sweeping changes at the governmental level-although they were able to make major gains in reducing higher-income taxes and shifting tax burdens overall, by raising payroll taxes substantially after cutting income taxes in the early 1980s.  Democratic control in the House resulted in an influx of corporate contributions to the Democratic Party, dividing its loyalties, and weakening ties to its core voting blocks.  But this did not have a major electoral consequence until 1994.

Free Lunch Conservatism
All the above explains motivations-and, broadly stated, means as well.  But it does not really explain how old-fashioned monopolistic capitalism made such a striking comeback, producing a rapid rise in economic polarization, which virtually halted a centuries-long history of each generation of Americans doing better economically than the generation before.  These political developments were so transparently opposed to the common good, and yet were so readily normalized that they require special explanation in their own right-as well as being crucial to understand if we wish to reverse them, as it seems inarguable that a progressive politics must do.

For this, we require an explanation that brings us back to the main thrust of this diary series.  The mechanism I propose was two-fold: First, traditional conservatism had utterly failed, and try as it might to re-present itself, people might buy it in the abstract, but when it came down to brass tacks, they were down with the New Deal, and broad government spending.  A conservative ideology that was halfway reality-based could not appeal to people whose everyday experience told them that government had an important role to play, even if they longed for the freedom of the Wild West and wished it were not so.  Still worse was a conservatism of austerity that promised people lots of hard work, with nothing much to show for it.  For conservatism to succeed, it had to totally cut its reality-based ties, and remake itself in the image of liberalism, promising good times for all, a better tomorrow, morning in America.  This was the beauty of supply-side economics, as sketched out in the earlier diary "The Big Lie And The Rightwing's Neo-Feudal Vision (A Supplement To The Political Duality Series)": it promised something for nothing: tax cuts would make tax revenues grow.  Instead of the traditional conservative message of sacrifice and hard work, this free lunch conservatism leap-frogged over the most utopian promises that mainstream liberalism had ever made.  Its promises were so excessive that they could only be compared to Communism. 

It's worth noting some other aspects of reality-denial that surfaced at this time. Racism suddenly vanished overnight, along with any sense that the conservatives who had fiercely defended it were in any sense morally lacking.  (Indeed, the fact that black people remained poor even after racism had vanished seemed to indicate that conservatives had been right all along-there was something morally wrong with the great mass of black people, and liberals were doing them no favors by pretending otherwise.)  Furthermore, by discovering the cause of fighting abortion, conservatives staked a claim to the new Civil Rights Movement. Vietnam was not tragic betrayal of ideals, a genocidal war of domination, marked by countless atrocities, fought for no good reason, and built on an elaborate foundation of lies.  It was a noble crusade, one that we had actually won, in fact, before the treasonous liberals in the media and the Democratic Congress stole it from us. And as for the environment, trees were a leading cause of pollution.

In all these ways and more, by cutting its reality-based ties, rightwing movement conservatism positioned itself for a dynamic of magical thinking, much like the rightwing movements of early 20th Century Europe.  Such a dynamic holds tremendous advantages over reality-based politics, simply because it is able to promise so much more-miracles both economic and spiritual.  The arguments for such a magical politics cannot be made in the same mundane reality-based way that one argues for realist politics.  One cannot discuss the Pentagon Papers, for example.  One must talk about Rambo instead, with his poignant question, "This time, will they let us win?"  One cannot study the sociology and economics of poverty.  One must tell stories of non-existent "welfare queens."  Nor can one realistically face the insanity of nuclear brinksmanship, and preparing to "win" a nuclear war.  Instead, one must tell fairy tales about a Star Wars missile shield, like a giant Superdome protecting the entire country.

All these problems that conservatism could not face and solve were to some degree insoluble because the world is simply too complicated for its Level 3 solutions.  It could neither grasp nor abide the Level 4 solutions of liberalism, but it could step in aggressively when liberalism faltered, either because a changing Level 4 world always throws up set-backs from time to time, or because the world was becoming even more complex-a post-modern Level 5 world. And when it stepped in because liberalism faltered, it stepped in with simplistic stories, about turning back to the good old days, and moving forward at the same time.

Above and beyond the material problems that liberals faced-problems sketched out in the section above-they now faced a serious dilemma, although they did not realize it at the time.  Conservatives were talking utter bunk, but efforts to point this out were only marginally effective.  Democrats did well in the 1982 mid-term elections, when the economy was in shambles, but by 1984, Reagan won a landslide re-election, while Walter Mondale abandoned his historical identity as a liberal champion, and campaigned on raising taxes to close the enormous deficits that supply-side fantasy had created.

The situation now was one of virtually complete role-reversal.  Instead of conservatives being defenders of the status quo, grounded in institutions that elaborately validated their worldview, liberals were.  Instead of those institutions being based on faith and authority (the Church, the King, feudal relations of lord and vassal, etc.), they were based on science and reason (social and physical science shaping and informing both social policy and technological initiatives, democratic institutions mediating the exercise of power, deliberations based on rational argument, albeit within boundaries set by power relations, etc.)

In a recent comment, texas dem wrote:

One way to look at it is that Democrats today are believers in the system that Democrats and a big chunk of the Republicans at the time put together in the 30s, 40s, and 50s.  The entire post-New Deal, Eisenhower era concept of government is one that the Dems and GOP then accepted.  (This is borrowing heavily from Perlstein's Unmaking of the American Consensus, of course.)  This conservative movement didn't accept it, they slowly purged the GOP of the oldline types that did, and now the GOP is 95% composed of people who literally want to destroy the concept of government that was developed back then.  The important contrast is that Dems don't.  So they play within the rules of that system, they don't exploit its weaknesses, they don't act in ways that might undermine it, and they generally keep their behavior constrained within a lot of the common understandings that used to constrain both sides.

I agree 100%.  But this is really only the teeniest tip of an ice shelf, not a mere iceberg.  As Ron Suskind's famous quotation reminds us, the Bush Administration, as the vanguard of this movement has nothing but contempt for "the reality-based community," which, in effect is to say, the entire tradition of the modern West with roots in the Italian Renaissance and even Roman law.  1215 and all that.

This larger tradition, although it involves Level 4 thinking, can well be experienced like an extended Level 3 community, which is precisely what liberals and Democrats have done.  Although movement conservaives (and with them, the entire Republican Party) have repeatedly violated the norms of this extended historical community, liberals and Democrats have been largely helpless to respond, in part because they deeply believe in those norms, and do not wish to damage them further, but in part because they are operating as Level 3 selves who are ontologically embedded in those norms, and are simply incapable of standing outside of them, recognizing how they have been broken, and crafting a Level 4 fix.

I would like to draw a parallel here.  In his book, In Over Our Heads, Kegan presents a series of vignettes illustrating conflicts and confusions between levels.  The most vivid one-for me at least-involved a teenager vowing to return from a party by their curfew, and then, naturally, failing to do so.  Kegan's point is that the teenager's failure was not in staying out late.  Rather, it was in making what is, for Level 2, an unkeepable promise.  For Level 2, point of view is subject, not object.  It is simply impossible for a Level 2 teenager to internalize their parents' point of view if it conflicts with theirs.  At the moment of promising-assuming good faith, of course-there is no conflict, and hence, no problem.  But neither is there the capacity to foresee future conflict, at which point the parents' point of view goes out the window.

Something similar is going on with Democrats when they "refuse" to play Constitutional hardball by voting down Bush's Supreme Court appointees, or even to exercise their undoubted Constitutional power of the purse to end the Iraq War by defunding it.  Some of them really are refusing to take these steps.  But some are so embedded in a Level 3 consciousness (itself partly constructed of our customary governmental order) that they are simply not capable of conceiving anything else.  This does not excuse them, any more than Kegan's analysis excuses the teenager of breaking curfew.  But it does strongly suggest a radically different approach to solving this poblem will be necessary.

Theres is much more that needs saying.  But this is so fundamental, that I want to let it sink in, while I work on organizing the rest, except for this...

Coda

In his comment, Texas Dem continued:

In this way, the Democrats are literally conservative; they like the old order that they created enough to conserve, protect, and retain it.  They care about its health.  They act carefully within it, so as not to damage it.  Democrats would never imagine pulling shit like the nuclear option, because it would damage the institution of the Senate, damage comity, further politicise the judiciary by allowing the appointment of more radical judges who could only muster 50 votes, etc.  The nuclear option is bad for the system of government that Democrats built, so they'd never ever even think of doing it, much less try to execute it as Frist did.  But modern Republicans are concerned with pulling down the old order and erecting their own, so smashing the opposition and smashing the old barriers of systemic restraint are both good for them.

This is it precisely.  And in fact, if we can create sufficient space outside of Level 3 consciousness to make this case it is a powerful way of reaching ordinary conservatives (the sort who largely support social spending, for example).  For the fact is that this is nothing new at all.  For centuries now, liberals have been creating new institutions whose purpose is two-fold-on one hand, to extend the realm of human freedom, and on the other to preserve social order and stability, which is, of course, an utter necessity if abstract freedoms are to be realized in everyday life.

This was the case centuries ago with the practice of religious tolerance, and its legal protections. The lack of religious tolerance had been traditional under the feudal unity of church and state. It was taken for granted that such unity was absolutely necessary in order to ensure social harmony.  But with the Reformation this tradition lead to a century of bloody warfare that decimated Europe.  Religious tolerance began as an utter necessity to preserve the peace.  Without it, no one was secure to practice their religion.  With it, the traditional aim of ensuring social harmony was restored-albeit via a new form.  Because disruptive changes like the Reformation are inevitable, Level 4 liberal responses like religious tolerance are actually conservative, reducing social strife and tensions, and preserving social order and stability.  This is a point of extreme importance that could help us build bridges to reasonable conservatives, and start the work of detoxifying the many millions who have been poisoned by movement conservatism.

But first, of course, we need to address the major overhaul needed among the Dems.



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It seems unfair to merely reply ... (0.00 / 0)
..."excellent and provocative," but that's all I have time for, other than to say that Ann Markusen (Rise of the Gunbelt) is one of the best neo-Marxist economists I've ever had the pleasure to know (a zillion years ago).

Gotta go to work (0.00 / 0)
Stock market open today so I am working.  I just had to say thanks, and I am looking forward so much to your conclusions.  I feel so caught here in NH, in a party in which the establishment seems to be taking credit for an enormous victory that was handed to them by the implosion of the Republicans, and stifling those of us who really want to change and move forward and get working on stuff like climate change before our world literally changes before our eyes. 



More Good History (0.00 / 0)
You're hitting the historical trends right on target.

The one thing I'd be interested in your opinion on is pre-New Deal developments.  For instance, there are a lot of far right nuts who view the income tax as some nefarious communist plot.  But how does this jive with how President Taft is seen, one of the supporters of the income tax amendment.

So, essentially, before the New Deal coalition, what seems to have accounted for the major victories of economic liberalism?

I actually have another question to throw in, because the discussion of New Deal politics reminded me of a post by Chris Bowers back at MyDD (http://www.mydd.com/...) about voting trends as studied by the Pew (http://people-press....):

Analyzing NES data, McCarty found that in the elections of 1956 and 1960, respondents in the highest income quintile were hardly more likely to identify as Republicans than were respondents in the lowest quintile. But by the elections of 1992 and 1996, those in the highest quintile were twice as likely as those in the lowest to call themselves Republicans. Pew's 2000 and 2004 election year surveys show that this pattern has persisted.

In short, the familiar "Republicans are rich/Democrats are poor" stereotype is much more true now - at least at the extremes of the income curve - than it was a half century ago when the AFL-CIO was founded. However, when it comes to partisanship and income, the key battleground in American politics is in the middle brackets. And there, after a long slow climb that has occurred mostly in the past two decades, the GOP has reached parity with the Democrats.

Do you view the lack of a partisan gap between the rich and the power in the mid-1950s as a sign that the New Deal coalition of the 1930s was already falling apart, or something else?


You Left This Out! (0.00 / 0)
Just before the part you quoted, Pew itself reported:
Just as these partisan allegiances have changed significantly over the longer sweep of history, so too have the relationships between party and income. A team of researchers led by Nolan McCarty of Princeton University has analyzed National Election Study survey data from 1952 to 2000 and found that there was much more partisan stratification by income at the end of that period than there had been at the beginning.

The biggest reason, they note, was the shift in the political alignment of Southern voters. In the 1950s, Southern whites of all income levels were among the most loyal Democrats in the country; they were still voting the way great-granddaddy shot in the Civil War. Meantime, blacks (almost all of whom were poor) were politically cross-pressured. Many were drawn to the Democrat Party by the policies of Franklin Roosevelt, but many others retained their ancestral loyalties to the Republican Party of Abraham Lincoln.

Outside the South, I just ran the NES data from the 1952-2000 cumulative data file, and partisan breakdown outside the South really hasn't changed much: 51.2 (D) - 40.5 (R) in 1952, 50.7 (D) - 37.6 (R) in 2000.  Republicans did much better from 1984-1994, even pulling ahead of the Democrats modestly in 1988.  But by 1996, Dems were back to 52%.  Also, low-income voters (the bottom 16%) have definitely become much more Democratic, 50.9-39.2 in 1852, compared to 65.1-23.9 in 2000 (if only their turnout were higher!) but shifts in all other groups were much more modest.  The most significant of them actually was the upper income (96-100%), which went from 22.8-63.2 to 37.9-55.2.

As for liberalism before the New Deal, well, you said it yourself, "there are a lot of far right nuts who view the income tax as some nefarious communist plot."  A fair number of them also think it was brought about by the Bavarian Illuminati.  The commies were just an Illuminati front.

The policies themselves, of course, tell a very different story. I don't think that the income tax, for example, was seen as a specifically liberal idea.  And on the regulatory side, establishing the FDA, for example, certainly wasn't.  ("I aimed for their hearts, but hit their stomachs," is how Upton Sinclair described the effect of The Jungle.)  Such reforms definitely had a liberal component to them, but were widely seen as pragmatic necessities, and frequently had cross-ideological support that was significantly stronger than anything seen during period when the New Deal was being put in place.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
So . . . (0.00 / 0)
On the history side.

I guess my question with the income tax and Taft, and your point with the FDA and meat safety and TR, was the "radicalism" of the New Deal, or rather the lack thereof.  As you point out, a number of business interests favored aspects of the New Deal out of necessity.  When you combine that with a look at Hoover's policies (he actually did more than he is given credit for) or Taft with trust busting and the income tax, TR with his programs, and of course Wilson, do you think that the reality of the New Deal is that it was far less of a radical shift in policies than it is presented in modern narrative?  So many new programs at once in such a short period of time certainly is important, but there was nothing that wasn't radically new when you look at the previous thirty or so years of American history that preceded it.


[ Parent ]
The National Welfare State Was Obvious A Major Change (0.00 / 0)
and any attempt to pretend otherwise is sophistry.

Before then, all that was possible was state-level programs and regulations, and many of them were struck down as unconstitutional.

It's a truism that all historic movements have long prehistories.  The women's movement, for example, didn't just spring up full grown out of the side of the Abolitionist movement in 1848.  There was a long prehistory, much of it within the Quaker Church, visible in the works of Mary Wollstonecraft (A Vindication of the Rights of Woman), Marquise de Condorcet ("On Giving Women the Right of Citizenship") and others.

The same is true of the New Deal instutionalizing America's national welfare state.  Of course it had many precursos.  But having precursors hardly diminishes the significance when the full force of a political movement arrives.



"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Not Diminishing (0.00 / 0)
Not trying to diminish the significance of it, but much like the earlier discussion of "Disaster Capitalism" and the influence of whatever ideas are around when a crisis hits, I'm curious as to how much of the New Deal and the national welfare state that it created was influenced by the progressive programs that came before it.  The examples set by state-level programs would be very important and I think it ties into a recent essay by David Sirota about the important of blue states leading the way on new progressive policies and not waiting for Congress, where filibusters and Bush Dogs slow Democrats down.

[ Parent ]
But It's WAY Off-Topic For This Series (0.00 / 0)
I'm only looking backwards to set the stage for what's going on today in terms of how cognitive development can illuminate the strange behaviour of the Democrats.

I didn't want to do that in a historical void, because I think it's much more powerful to show how it's embedded in history.  But that doesn't mean I have to start with the Magna Charta, just because Bush wants to get rid of it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
True, True (0.00 / 0)
I enjoy the series a lot, don't want to take it too off topic.

[ Parent ]
Well, Maybe a Bit . . (0.00 / 0)
OK, apologies if this is too off topic, but this is one reaction I have as some of your passages bounce around in my head.  This part in particular.  I'm going to add some emphasis and interject with thoughts and comments and question.

However, there were significant segments of the capitalist class that never went along with this, and it was among these other segments that conservative movement gestated while largely out of power.  Not incidentally, the dominant New Deal governing coalition actually subsidized these dissident conservative elites in a variety of ways.  One was through military spending that largely moved money, jobs and advanced technology away from the old industrial core, and out into the geographic periphery.  (See The Rise of the Gunbelt: The Military Remapping of Industrial America .)

What I think is very interesting is how this Gunbelt developed.  Because of the Democratic domination of Congress, and strong incumbent Democrats in the South and West, the rise of the military-industrial complex can in many ways be "blame" (for lack of a more neutral word) on conservative Democrats. 

Early anti-New Deal Republicans, like Senator Taft from Ohio, were anti-military industrial complex because of their strong isolationist views.  Even a more moderate Republican like Ike was critical of the whole system, despite being far more internationalist.  The marriage of conservatism, the Republican Party, and the military-industrial complex took a bit longer: the National Review and its focus on rabid anti-communism being the defining trait of the Republican Party.  Military-industrial Democrats still could be found in the Democratic Party in the 1970s, like Scoop Jackson, but I think there was a clear shift in the 1970s towards the Republican Party among the military-industrial community.

For me personally, this is a major lesson that I hope the modern Democratic Party can learn from.  Having political power and control of Congress is one thing.  But you've got to be brave enough to use it.  Progressive Congressional Democrats failed to challenge the members of their own party who were supporting policies that in the long run undermined the Democratic majority.

From your perspective interested in the cognitive development, what do you see as some of the causes of this failure to confront an internal problem in the party?  A desire to work inside the establishment of the Democratic Party?  Being too cooperative and not confrontational enough? 

Another was through infrastructure spending that boosted the growth of businesses that often had little or no investment in the welfare state, aside from paying payroll takes.  In particular, the growth of the Interstate highway system boosted the growth of dispersed cities and suburbs where businesses and relatively affluent residents set up shop, leaving behind older, more expensive to maintain cities and regions with more recent influxes of black and white southerners whose needs for social services were significantly higher than the populations they replaced.

Exactly!  Looking back, we shouldn't be surprised that GM's transportation policy was to focus on automobile transportation at the expensive of all other modes of transportation.  And the rise of the suburbs had a key impact on the rise of modern Republicanism, from Atlanta (White Flight by Kevin Kruse) to Orange County (Suburban Warriors by Lisa McGirr), which also ties into the military industrial complex.

There is a clear system in place right now in which the government is propping up the conservative red state economy.  Military spending, transportation policy, unsustainable practices in agriculture, timber, mining, ranching, etc.  It seems that Democrats are more afraid of the backlash from cutting/reforming/changing these programs than they are of the long term trend of this conservative red state economy growing and continuing to undermine Democratic politics.  Is this just a short term vs. long term thing, or what?


[ Parent ]
Sorta, Kinda... (0.00 / 0)
Having political power and control of Congress is one thing.  But you've got to be brave enough to use it.  Progressive Congressional Democrats failed to challenge the members of their own party who were supporting policies that in the long run undermined the Democratic majority.

You do realize that this is the exact opposite of the conventional wisdom, that the McGovern wing of the party drove out the hawks, and thus destroyed Democratic credibility on national security lo, unto this very day?

Both views are mistaken, in my view.  But I think you're closer to the truth.

However, things are never that simple.  For one thing, the MIC was damn strong in both parties, and Ike didn't do a whole lot to actually stop the MIC when in office.  He gave two great speeches--one just after getting into office, to bookend with MIC speech--and did precsious little in between.  In fact what he did do--unleashing the CIA to be a covert action agency, overthrowing foreign governments, not just an intelligence agency--contributed enormously to the growth of the MIC, by accelerating confrontation and a sharp division between East and West, rather than accepting the Non-Aligned Block as a useful buffer.

As for your second point, McGirr's book is particularly important, both for making the MIC connection, and for how it explains the dependence of modern conservatism on the military welfare state and their intense denial of same, as well as the whole progression that followed therefrom.  It's worth noting, of course, how deeply OC and San Diego County are still driven by this dependency.  Duke Cunningham, anyone?

You are 100% correct about the red state subsidies.  If the roles were reversed, the GOP would cut them off in a New York minute.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Well . . (0.00 / 0)
As someone who likes McGovern, and sees how the McGovern 1972 campaign ties into the emerging Democratic majority, I'm more than happy to disagree with conventional wisdom.

I guess the silver lining today is that while 50 or so years ago the "Bush Dogs" of their times dominated the leadership of the Democratic Party, today they are by far the smaller wing of the Democratic Party.


[ Parent ]
Paul, who are you? (0.00 / 0)
I'm pretty sure you're not the 19th century French art collector who represented Picasso, Matisse and Braque. But are you Eminem's producer? (Your point in the previous post about the lack of interest on the part of Dems for Hollywood's creativity makes this possible...but still doubtful.)

Anyway, thanks for the posts. They're insightful.


No, But... (0.00 / 0)
Sometimes when I google to look for something I've written in the past, I get clutter from Eminem's producer.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
History is bunk (4.00 / 1)
People of all viewpoints like to point to history to validate their current position.

The glory days of Eisenhower Republicanism were far from ideal. For every myth of the happy household (Ozzie and Harriet) there was the flip side of the "Man in the Gray Flannel Suit". People traded a home in the suburbs for individualism. The cold war and Red baiting threw a pall over everything. Non-conformity was punished by social ostracism and even prison.

Being a member of the US Communist party was a crime. That is, thought was made a crime, since the party didn't do anything except posture. Teaching children to hide under their desks in case of a nuclear attack didn't do much for one's mental health either. Yes the middle class did better during the period, but how could it not given that the preceding decades had see an economic collapse and a war economy. When you are at the bottom every direction is up.

The glory days of the New Deal weren't as rosy as pictured either. Most of the policies put in by Roosevelt to control financial excesses had little direct impact on the lives of most people. So what if the margin rate was raised, people didn't own stock. The social programs that were instituted were all remedial and ad hoc and didn't represent a new, coherent, social vision. The CCC and the WPA were temporary programs based upon desperation. There may have even been some consideration that if the extent of poverty and unemployment continued to rise there was a risk of civil unrest. Everyone points to the creation of Social Security. This was a useful program, but was very small when it started. It did nothing to help dig the US out of the depression. Roosevelt was timid, not bold. He also didn't have as much support from congress as liberals like to claim.

In addition his actions leading up to WWII have been overlooked while the role of the US in fighting the war is highlighted. What was happening in Germany was obvious as far back as the late 1920's and there was no interest in the US nor the UK and France to head it off. In fact there was much support for Germany in both the US and the UK. Both countries had many with close ties both personally and through business. The idea that setting Hitler against Stalin would solve the west's problems was common. Communism was seen as the big threat and allowing a bit of fascism to overcome it was seen as worth the price. Roosevelt explicitly ignored the reports he received about the destruction of the Jews and did nothing. This was a political calculation. We see the same calculation being made today in places like Darfur and Burma.

The truth is that the people only win rights when they undertake direct action. This is never totally peaceful. Even if the people are non-violent the state will resort to violence when the status quo seems threatened. It could be Pinkerton men, the local police and national guard as happened in labor disputes or the rounding up of  monks in Burma.

It is nice that political movements try to validate their claims by reference to history, but it's always selective. No one wants to see their myths debunked.

I think it would be more productive if we stated the moral principles and then discussed how we are going to get them enacted. Otherwise we run the risk of fighting old political battles over again. Lincoln was a Republican, so what. His brand of Republicanism has nothing to do with the modern party of the same name.

The battle lines are clear, as they always have been: privilege vs democracy. Shared values vs an elite. Everyone is equal vs some animals are more equal than others.

Policies not Politics


The Man Who Said That Was A Vicious Anti-Semite (0.00 / 0)
I'm puzzled why you'd use that quote.  And more puzzled still by what you seem to be saying.  Don't study history because it's a mixed bag?  You're being just as selective in pointing out all the negative.  I don't have a problem with that, but just notice what you are doing.

I wasn't trying to pretend that the New Deal was some sort of Golden Age, and I certainly don't mind criticizing it's short-comings.  The American welfare state was always significantly inferior to European ones, and it's important to understand why that is.  Because, of course, history is not bunk.  It's how we learn from our mistakes.

Anti-semites like Henry Ford are bunk.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
lighten up (4.00 / 1)
Just because I chose an obviously stupid quote from a bigot doesn't mean I support his ideas. Not only was he a bigot, but he was viciously anti-labor and sympathetic to Germany and its industrial policies.

I also ended by quoting Orwell, or didn't you notice.

I'll simplify my point: using history to validate a political movement that is not the same as the one in the past even though it shares the same party name leaves one open to getting trapped into pointless debates about history.

I would rather see ideas for change being advanced on their own merits. Whether Roosevelt was motivated by X or Y will not help get progressive legislation passed now.

Just look at the arguments in the economics sphere. For everyone who says Reagan's tax policies were the conservatives finest moment there is another who counters with Clinton's tax increases. Both groups use cherry picked data to "prove" their economic model. The truth of the matter is that if there was a model that was robust these arguments wouldn't exist.

Now someone favoring a tax increase at present could just focus on how the money is going to be applied rather than invoking the historical cases. It is just because the conservative outlook is so clear on what their goals are that they need to resort to distorted history to obscure their objectives. I don't think liberals should play their game.

Appeals to fairness, equity, democracy and economic efficiency should be adequate. I can't change the past, but I might be able to influence the future.

Policies not Politics


[ Parent ]
The Baby With The Bathwater (0.00 / 0)
I'll simplify my point: using history to validate a political movement that is not the same as the one in the past even though it shares the same party name leaves one open to getting trapped into pointless debates about history.

That's a good point.  But your post went far, far beyond it.  The GOP of today bears no relationship to the Party of Lincoln.  OTOH, the Democratic Party of today does have a clear, demonstrable relationship with the Democratic Party of the New Deal.  Thanks to the Civil Rights Movement, and much else, it's a better version.  Thanks to deindustrializaiton and the DLC, not so much.  But the relationship is still there.  It has not flip-flopped on its core principles.  The GOP of today is far closer to the 1850s American Party (the Know-Nothings) which rivalled it briefly in a bid to become the successor party to the Whigs.  And blurring the distinction between those two examples is a further disservice.

I would rather see ideas for change being advanced on their own merits.

The purpose of this piece was not advocacy of ideas, but analysis of how our current political process has become so dysfunctional, and how we might change that.  So you're entire first comment, as well as this follow-up, seem to miss the point.

That being said, a connection to past historical efforts can hardly be separated from an argument on the merits.  The record of the past is intimately bound up in our judgments about how the future is likely to turn out.

The fact that people disagree about the past is hardly proof of anything.  They disagree about the present and the future as well.

Appeals to fairness, equity, democracy and economic efficiency should be adequate.

Yes, they should.  But unfortunately they aren't.  Which is why I'm writing this series.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Totally off topic (but not really) (0.00 / 0)
I'll state my problem with the current political scene and then shut up and let you get back to discussing process.

I don't think we have two political parties in the US, we have one and a half. We have the Republican and the Republican Lite. They only differ in one area. The GOP is against government regulation of corporate behavior and in favor of regulation of personal morality. The Dems are in favor of relatively more government regulation of corporations, slightly less control of personal morality and more interested in a social safety net. These difference can have substantial effects on individuals, but I consider them secondary.

On the main issues the two parties agree. These are that the only viable economic model is the capitalist/consumerist one. The solutions to the major problems in the society can be found in economic growth. This growth is a "national interest" and thus getting an adequate supply of raw materials and finished goods at favorable prices is also a national interest. The best way to achieve this national interest is by maintaining a strong military sector and practicing a muscular foreign policy. The details may differ, but both Dems and the GOP believe in the concept of a just war.

Neither party is willing to examine other economic systems, especially those not predicated on growth. Neither is willing to reduce the military/police sector. Neither is willing to address climate change and looming resource limits in a realistic way. Neither is willing to reform the electoral process so as to get big money out of the system. Both are beholding to big money to help them win elections.

I find the similarities more important than the differences. I grant that a change of majority party will be a "good thing", it just won't be a sufficiently good thing.

Policies not Politics


[ Parent ]
The Whole Point Of This Discussion (0.00 / 0)
I grant that a change of majority party will be a "good thing", it just won't be a sufficiently good thing.

I think that's pretty much the point of this whole blog in the first place.  If we all felt it was sufficient, we'd still be at MyDD.  (Not that they necessarily think it's sufficient, either, but it's more along the line of their focus.)

Where I would differ with what you've stated above is that you're talking about party leadership, whereas there's considerably more diversity in the parties as a whole--particularly the Dems.  And the issue, therefore, is what can be done to alter the leadership, while expanding the range of ideas more generally throughout the party.

The whole point of this discussion is to illuminate some of the obstacles standing in the way, and try to identify some ways around them.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
OK, I'm breaking my promise (0.00 / 0)
I promised to shut up, but...

I think the problems that I outlined go beyond the Dem leadership. I think that both parties represent the real desires of the majority of the population. Many of these desires are fairly ugly and selfish, so the public and the pols have developed a whole vocabulary to disguise the situation.

The fundamental fact is that the vast majority of Americans like the present society. That is they like the easy availability of cheap consumer goods, they like living at the peak of the standard of living of the world, and they don't want to see this change.

Of course, many are more liberal than congress on social safety net issues, but this is, I keep maintaining, a detail.

We like the SUV, McMansion culture. Even those at the bottom of the pile are still better off than 90% of the rest of the planet. To maintain this position we consume an inequitable amount of the world's resources. We know in our heart of hearts that this can only be achieved through force, either overt or soft, but we don't want to admit it (even to ourselves).

Any politician that came out with an "eat your spinach" campaign wouldn't get two votes. That's why efforts to control auto usage and design don't get much traction.

As Pogo said: "We have met the enemy and he is us."

Asking people to sacrifice now for the benefit of future generations is a particularly hard sell. I don't see any way to shift public opinion towards more realistic consumption and use patterns.

If Katrina wasn't a wake up call what will it take?

Policies not Politics


[ Parent ]
You're Committing A Common Republican Mistake (0.00 / 0)
Republicans do this all the time--use people's consumer desires as a proxy for political attitudes and policy preferences.  They do it because they want to ignore those policy preferences.  You seem to be doing it out of frustration and despair.

But the truth is that people have contradictory desires all the time, and this one of the ways that they manifest.  The purpose of politics, in an ideal pragmatic sense, is precisely to resolve some of these contradictions by delivering things in the policy realm that can't possibly be delivered in the consumer realm, particularly since people evidently want both.

However, another thing worth noting is that people never have been given another trade-off choice that many would find appealling--money for time.  Over the past 3o-some years, worker productivity has expanded significantly.  That should have enabled, as one possibility, a substantial reduction in workweeks.  Time is a precsious commodity, and when people have more of it, they often tend to consume less, as they get more satisfaction from liesure activities that fulfill self-expression, belongingness and other higher-order (Maslovian Hierarchy) needs.

But, of course, the American worker not only never got that choice.  They never got paid in higher wages, either.

Ah, the wonders of the free market!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
My Question For You . . (4.00 / 1)
But the truth is that people have contradictory desires all the time, and this one of the ways that they manifest.  The purpose of politics, in an ideal pragmatic sense, is precisely to resolve some of these contradictions by delivering things in the policy realm that can't possibly be delivered in the consumer realm, particularly since people evidently want both.

How do you approach using politics to resolve these contradictory desires?  What should be the guiding principle that Democrats use when using politics? 

That's the short of it.

Here is where I am coming from.

I have a friend who wants to be able to eat lots of junk food without getting fat.  She supports banning trans fats because that will force junk food companies to find something healthier to use.

I dislike market concentrations and big business.  I know that any new way of making junk food without trans fats will be a trade secret cooked up in the R&D branch of a big corporation.  The ban will have the effect of putting out of business smaller more boutique companies that use trans fats.  In New York, for instance, the ban is having problems with bakeries and doughnut shops.  The result is that local doughnut shops will be driven out of business because they can't adapt, while a big national chain can.

On a host of issues ranging from the availability of unpasteurized milk to better tasting tomatoes that look ugly to small scale organic farming and meat processing I am in conflict with my more suburban consumerist liberal friends.


[ Parent ]
Obviously The Answer Is More And Better Politics (0.00 / 0)
In this case, more and better regulation.  Government mandates for improved health and safety should not be yielding those sorts of results, so we need mechanisms to deal with such secondary effects.  This calls for more systematic thinking to appreciate all those effects, and then appropriate mechanisms to deal with them.

This is one reason that socializing costs and benefits is sometimes far prefferable to marketizing them.  There are just too many ramifications in the marketplace, and you count compensate for them all.  So if you call for a new regulation, and only a monopoly-held product can meet that regulation, then the government--which is creating the new captive market in the first place--has a right to regulate the price, or buy out the right-holder.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Money for Time (0.00 / 0)
Interesting that you raised this. I've been thinking about writing an essay on buying time.

I'm a perfect example of the trade off. I decided at 57 that I had accumulated enough wealth and stopped working (for money). This was possible because of the "sacrifice" I had made for the prior 30 years in keeping my consumption rate down and my savings rate up.

I traded consumerism for time. It's been eight years and I think I made the right choice. It's not clear that the next generation will even have the option. While the critics like to point to the flat screen TV's as a sign of profligacy, it is really health, housing and college costs that are reducing the ability of people to save for the future.

This is to be expected in an unregulated market economy. It is just those costs that people can't avoid that can be raised to what the market will bear. In fact we have already exceeded these costs for many. The effect isn't large enough yet to force the costs  to be scaled back. Instead of saving for the future people are renting their lives.

Policies not Politics


[ Parent ]
Changing perceptions, discovering opportunities (0.00 / 0)
I think Paul's point about providing people with new and more satisfying trade-offs is very important in addressing the point Robert makes about Americans wanting all the material goodies and low prices our economic system delivers (at least to some folks).  Yes, there's a part of us that sometimes loves Wal-Mart's low prices, even as we hate much of what makes them possible in our existing economic system.  But that doesn't mean that this ambivalence--or the system, socialization and messaging that maintains it--is immutable

This is where a fundamentally different framing is extremely valuable--not only of particular issues, but also of the fundamental underpinnings and interactions of economic, social, political and ecological systems; how our experience of individual and collective human life fit within and interact with these systems; our options as individuals and citizens; and potentially with regard to what comprises a truly satisfying life.  All that sounds complicated, but in key respects, I believe there's a shared simplicity underlying it all.  As Paul has noted earlier, that simplicity can often be conveyed best through stories with strong themes rather than through policy papers.  Sometimes its helpful to unravel the complex layers to understand the dynamics, but other times its best to tell a story that gets to the heart of the matter.  Republicans have abused this art form, but their abuse only underscores how potent it is. 

Some basic "shifting" of worldviews and paradigms seems to be called for here.  I think Paul's example of the time-money trade-off represents one opening into those kinds of shifts.  And I'd argue that a mind open to one element of a systemic shift is likely to be more open to other aspects of it. 

Of course, shifting worldviews and paradigms on a mass scale is not an easy task.  But my feeling has long been that, while electronic media and technology have contributed to the Wal-Martization of American consciousness (e.g., the TV--and its barrage of inanity--is on for an average of more than 8 hrs/day in US homes, compared to roughly half that amount in most of the rest of the developed world), these same technologies (actually more evolved and interactive forms of them) can also help turn the tide in the direction suggested above. 

As an example of where we might find some pleasant surprises, I'd point to Matt's post on Zack Exley's "Revolution in Jesusland" blog.  My first impression was "what????".  Then, after scanning a few of Zack's posts, my reaction was that maybe there actually are some bases for alliances between progressives and younger generations (and some oldtimers) of evangelicals.  That, in itself, started shifting some of my own worldviews and thinking in new and positive directions.


[ Parent ]
The value of historical analysis (4.00 / 1)
I think the value of spending lots of time on historical analysis vs. analysis of current situations and strategies is a valid arena for debate.  And I think Henry Ford's virtues or lack thereof are not especially relevant to that question.

My sense is that Paul is providing value by integrating historical analysis with a psycho-social-political-economic perspective grounded in current realities, and an appreciation of the need for effective public policies and political strategies that work in today's world.

But I also think Robert raises a fundamentally valid point which, as I understand its broad meaning, is that history is an incredibly complex, multi-layered and multi-faceted subject that is open to many interpretations, including some that may seem to contradict each other, or at least can be used to justify opposing views.

To me, the key question is what can we learn from history that is truly valuable and applicable in today's world, and how can we apply and test it?  I certainly don't know the answer to that in the abstract, but I do think this "current-value" question should be the primary filter that determines how and the extent to which we look to history for guidance.  I also think there's a healthy balance that needs to be struck between the argument that "those who ignore history repeat it" and the risk that "those who focus too much on the past cannot envision and create new paths to a better future."

And, perhaps more importantly, I think Robert and Paul agree on the fundamentals.  For example, Paul's core theme of "dignity and security for all," is strongly echoed in Robert's closing statement:  "The battle lines are clear, as they always have been: privilege vs democracy. Shared values vs an elite. Everyone is equal vs some animals are more equal than others."

I think that the value of Paul's history-rich analysis will lie mainly in how it can help us move forward from where we are today.  That leads me to view Robert's comments as a useful cautionary reminder.  But I also get the sense that Paul's analysis and purpose is very much grounded in the question of "where we go from here" and "how do we best get there."  And, given my own lack of historical knowledge base, I appreciate Paul's effort to distill and integrate so much history, so the rest of us can digest the gist of it relatively quickly and easily.


[ Parent ]
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