Producers vs. predators--the difference between left & right

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Mar 20, 2010 at 15:50


( - promoted by Chris Bowers)

There's a lot of rigidity visible in how many people's thinking has remained remarkably unaffected by the virtually unprecedented behavior of the GOP over the past year-plus.  The rigidity itself would make an interesting topic to focus on, but it's more like the appetizer as far as I'm concerned, and I want to head straight for the entree: What people should have learned by now about liberals vs. conservatives, the left vs. the right. I've written about this before, how the right/conservatives see politics as war, while the left/liberals see politics as problem-solving.  But I'm ready to tackle it again.

To do so, I'd like to step back a bit and take a look at really macro-history, courtesy of Tyler Cowen at Marginal Revolutiopn, in a mid-week post, "Why did it take so long for humans to have the Industrial Revolution?"  It wasn't his purpose to answer the question about the origins of left/right attitudes towards politics for us, but he did so, whether he realized it or not.  Here's the crux of the matter:

extended periods of economic growth require that technologies of defense outweigh technologies of predation.  They may also require that the successful defender, at the same time, has good enough technology to predate someone else and accumulate a sizable surplus.  Parts of Europe took a good deal from the New World and this may have mattered a good deal.

Building a strong enough state to protect markets from other states is very hard to do; at the same time the built state has to avoid crushing those markets itself.  That's a very delicate balance

Of course other things are important.  Cowen also cites Britain's geography, and the influence of Christianity, especially as it evolved into Protestantism, some commentators cited the Enlightenment, which Cowen rightly notes came too late to explain how it got started, but is not so far-fetched if one sees it as the tail end of a secularizing, empiricizing and rationalizing triple-play: the Renaissance, the Reformation and the Enlightenment.  And, of course, the start of the modern information age via the printing press also gets noted in comments.

All these "secondary" explanations are importatnt, of course, but they're secondary in the sense that if predation could not be kept relatively at bay for long enough, none of them would have made a difference.  It was the core power dynamic in the passage I quoted above that created the opportunity space in which the other factors could take hold.  Without them, the Industrial Revolution wouldn't have happened.  But with the core dynamic in place for long enough, it seems arguable that sooner or later good enough social/institutional factors would have enabled the start of the Industrial Revolution.

What's this got to do with left & right, liberal & conservative, you ask?  Well, simple: the aristocracy is the core of the right, and it's based on two things: predation and inheritence. The European aristocracy is Europe's warrior class, and their values, outlook, social practices and habits define what it means to be conservative.  (This is strongly reflected in the American South as well.) Of course, they aren't alone.  But they're at the very core, along with the institutions they have long controlled--most notably, the Catholic Church.

Liberalism primarily evolved out of the city-based "middle classes", based in trade, small-manufacture and the professions--the bourgeoisie, although skilled workers (Tom Paine, anyone?) and even freed slaves (Frederick Douglass) played a part as well.  In turn, socialism/social democracy evolved primarily out of the working class, although disaffected members of the bourgeoisie (Marx & Engels, anyone?) played a significant role as well.

The Marxist method of dialectical materialism highlighted the tendency for old forms to persist in new ones, in altered forms via the dynamic of thesis-antithesis-synthesis, so there was sensitivity to the fact that the liberal bourgeoisie had more in common with the aristocracy than it generally realized.  (Particularly when it took over the functions of running the state, setting up empires, running slave trades, etc.) But in fact, this analytically method actually understates the degree to which all sides tend to reflect one another in various ways, nor does it adequately account for similarities between the proletariat and the aristocracy, such as a tendency toward embodied forms of reason, and a more conflictual view of politics.  Still, that does not negate the fact of profound differences in the basic logic of different social groups, nor the fact that generally speaking proletarian politics are to the left of bourgeois politics.

Things got quite a bit more mixed up in America, what with the lack of a national aristocracy, the presence of both an indigenous population to be predated and the imported slave population as a product of predation, and the post-Civil War emergence of monopoly capitalists whose essential logic was much more predatory than earlier capitalists had been, as well as the complex politics of race, ethnicity and region.  But the last half century has been a period in which America's political parties--and its politics more generally--has become more aligned along traditional left/right divides--though some new forms were developed to facilitate this.

But there's a hitch.

Paul Rosenberg :: Producers vs. predators--the difference between left & right
The hitch is that neo-liberalism has one foot on each side of the divide.  This goes all the way back to some of the earliest implicit aspects of liberalism, and how its logic was involved a detachment from the concrete world that conservative ideology regarded as unquestionable.  Among other things, this detachment, presented in positive terms as autonomy and impartial rationality, allowed liberals to talk in terms of universal rights, and yet to restrict those rights to a limited set of rights-holders, based on the argument that only those who were materially independent could actually exercise those rights of their own volition.  (The classic discussion of this is found in C.B. MacPherson's Political Theory of Possessive Individualism: Hobbes to Locke.)

This is how so-called "universal" rights came to be a kind of limited property that provided the bourgeoisie--not to mention white males--with a form of oligarchic power quite at odds with the liberal spirit of egalitarian market mediations as well as universal consent.  On a macro-scale, it also explains how centuries of injustice, with continuing consequences to this very day, such as massive debts owed by "developing" nations, can simply be regarded as unexceptional aspects of business-as-usual.

As conservatives quickly and adroitly capitalized on racial resentment in the aftermath of watershed civil rights advances, the often embodied logic of the struggles themselves was increasingly marginalized in terms of an abstract rights-based discourse that over time was increasingly submerged into an evolving techno-elitist discourse which was the "natural" language of neoliberalism, a viewpoint that sees liberation as an individual--not a group--struggle, the end purpose of which is to develop oneself on the model of a capitalist enterprise, as opposed to being a citizen of a democratic republic, whose being cannot be defined except in a process of engagement with others on a multitude of fronts and levels, from the personal to the world historical.

This may all sound very abstract, but it shows itself over and over again in very concrete ways.  It explains, for example, why Obama can be puzzled by the enthusiasm shown for the public option, while seeing no big deal in switching from opposing to supporting an individual mandate. It also explains why Obama so readily identifies with the plight of multimillionare and billionaire bankers, despite occasional rhetorical forays to the contrary.  (They are, after all, possessive individuals, just like the rest of us.) And why he sees no real imperative to reinstate New Deal-style regulations (properly updated, of course) that could have prevented the financial meltdown.  Neoliberals are constitutionally blind to the fact that there is no ideal free market for the biggest winners in the corporate capitalist order. They may well see this fact if forced to stare directly at it, but as soon as it's out of sight, it's out of mind, because it so fundamentally contradicts their basic framework of assumptions.  The kinds of restrictions they see as adequate--the only kinds they can really feel comfortable with--are by definition incapable of doing what is required because their conceptual framework is fundamentally individualistic, while the problem is systemic--a word that to them reeks of socialism, if not the Gulags.

And, of course, they are fundamentally not that different from neoconservatives when push comes to shove in the war-fighting department.  (All hail the God who is Patreas!)  They just pay a lot more attention to efficient and effective details.  But neoliberals would never dream of considering--much less being bothered by--the fundamental question of war's essential predatory nature, and the fact that this alone is enough to ensure eternal "terrorism" (i.e. asymmetrical resistance).

So, when it comes to endless war, it's quite clear that the neoliberals are far closer to the neoconservatives than they are to the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party.

There's little wonder, then, why the neoliberals are constantly trying to make nice with the right, despite any signs of reciprocation.  On one level, their entire orientation comes out of a long history of productive problem-solving, which works best when everyone gets along.  On another level, they've always had a rather comfortable cushion that comes from the unacknowledged fruits of sharing in the conservatives fruits of predation--often, when push comes to shove, fruits of predation on those who appear to be their base, or their allies.


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Very convenient (4.00 / 3)
eternal war assures eternal terrorism, and eternal terrorism ensures eternal war and war profits.    

Well, Like The Man Said (4.00 / 4)
"There's no success like failure."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Neo-Liberals Are Frustrated (4.00 / 2)
Because the right just won't play nice. They all feel like saying: "we really want the same things as you, we're just going about it in a more rational manner."

And for their pains they get a vicious attack from the right which they never understand and have hurt feelings about.

The right-wing understands more clearly than they do that to "give an inch is to give a mile" thus for example to reform the institution of slavery by sensible regulation and limitation (Abraham Lincoln) is to simply to give those "uppity Negroes" the idea that they are as good as white people.

And that can only lead to endless trouble.

The Aristocrats are right of course.

As Fredrick Douglas put it, a slave who's beaten and starved thinks no further than an end to his beatings and getting enough food, but a slave who is well treated and given some independence wants total freedom and equality.

Thus, every compromise with the mass of the population made as a sensible concession to reality (minority rights, labor rights, voting rights, womens' equal rights) only creates a further sense of entitlement to a full and fair share of the pie!


[ Parent ]
Bingo! (4.00 / 1)
You have your choice of prizes...

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Paul? Why are so many of the American Proletariat (4.00 / 1)
conservative?  How do we win them to back to their natural allegiance with Social Democracy?

Educate, Agitate, Organize, Mobilize, Act!


Race (4.00 / 5)
Perhaps the best insight here is provided by the paper "Why Doesn't the United States Have a European-Style Welfare State?" by Alesina, Alberto, Edward L. Glaeser, and Bruce Sacerdote (Brookings Papers on Economic Activity 2, 2001: 187-277), which I've written about a couple of times, such as "Racial Attitudes And Social Spending--Part 1" and "Racial Divisions vs. Public Social Spending".

Race isn't the only reason they give, but there is a world-wide pattern seen at various different levels, showing that welfare-state generosity is correlated with racial uniformity.  Now, it has to be pointed out that lower working class is substantially more Democratic than the upper working class, and there's every reason to believe they're substantially less racist as well.  And, of course, it was the overthrow of the AFL's elitist labor model by the CIO that was one of the keys to the emergence of the labor movement as a central force in the New Deal.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
universality (4.00 / 2)
i think a How to try to overcome that is to focus more on universally available benefits. it's true that well-off people don't need the help as much, so it isn't as efficient (and Efficiency is the God). but generosity comes easier to homogenous populations because it's easier for people to think, "That could be me." they can imagine benefiting because they can identify. so if in the US it's harder for people to identify, then make it easier to imagine the benefit by making it explicit.

besides, universal benefits help emphasize our common identity as citizens, and that's what i'd call a good thing. (my copy of this post has the end purpose of which is to develop oneself on the model of a capitalist enterprise, as opposed to being a citizen of a democratic republic underlined 5 times with exclamation points in the margin...)

not everything worth doing is profitable. not everything profitable is worth doing.


[ Parent ]
Well, You Have To Know What The Problem Is (4.00 / 1)
before you've got a good shot at fixing it.  And your suggestion is certainly one way to start doing that.  As a confirmed believer in multiple causation, I doubt that that alone will be enough.  But there is certainly more we can do as well.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
They aren't that conservative. (0.00 / 0)
Most just don't vote. In order win their allegence to social democracy, you have to have a social democratic party!

My blog  

[ Parent ]
Interesting resemblance to game theoretical strategies (4.00 / 1)
It's a very rough equivalence, but I was struck by it nonetheless:

Conservative = always defect (pure hawk)
Neoliberal = varied strategies: Tit-for-tat, Firm-but-Fair, Generous
Progressive liberal = always cooperate (pure dove)

Success in the game depends almost exclusively on the strategies employed by the other players (with the exact balance depending on the precise rules e.g. relative rewards, group play, repeat interaction, population size, etc).

A population of conservative hawks is vulnerable to invasion by neoliberals who can cooperate with each other while defecting against hawks.  But a neoliberal matched with a true liberal is perfectly happy to keep defecting to win more points.  

That said, neoliberals gradually lose out to more generous variants due to accidental mutual-defection fights with each other.  Depending on the exact rules of the game, you sometimes end up with a population of pure doves... but any sufficiently generous/cooperative population is utterly vulnerable to an invasion of conservative hawks, starting the cycle over again.

Of course, reality isn't nearly so simple (noncultural factors such as genetics and many more), but one could argue that the analogy in terms of ideal opponents holds: a population with too many conservatives is a poor environmental for true liberals, while neoliberals can make some headway, and once dominant, can then be displaced by true liberals.

The great sorting of America over the last few decades into communities of the like-minded should lead to liberal dominance, as our model is simply more productive than they are when they're not around to screw things up.  This leads to the children of rural conservatives moving to the liberal big city to pursue their dreams, etc.  But we don't replicate as fast, nor should we given environmental carrying capacity; our best bet really is to win over their children.  Education is paramount for the liberal strategy.

Again, it's clearly a tremendously simplified rough equivalence, but Paul's comments on how the different groups view politics matched up well.

 


The nitty gritty (4.00 / 4)
This one gets another amen (and it ain't even Sunday.)

Just one quick observation: predation and defense are more closely related than most of us realize. The magisterium which initiates predatory wars resembles very closely the magisterium which initiates so-called pre-emptive, or preventive wars. No one needs to lie about the former because its aims are so obvious -- The only good Injun is a dead Injun -- but the magisterium always lies about the latter. Manifest Destiny, or The White Man's Burden, or The Pottery Barn Rule are always presented as defenses of civilization.

Of course, as our generation knows all too well, post-Vietnam, the wars you start over there always wind up over here. The techniques used by the Phoenix Program will inevitably be proposed for use by the Podunk SWAT team, and the magisterium which was created to defend democracy against the excesses of the rabble will always end -- absent other influences -- as the oppressors of the very people who were supposed to be the backbone of that democracy.

Absent other influences. Isn't that our cue?


"Well, Suck. On. This." (4.00 / 2)
I think Thomas Friedman would be the poster child for this self-justifying, neo-lib/neo-con ideology.  After all, owning a Lexus justifies your status and wealth no matter how you got it.  Owning an olive tree?  Well, not so much.  Here come the bulldozers.  

I have no doubt Thomas Friedman thinks he's a liberal.  
And isn't Friedman occaisionally on Obama's reading list?


Newton and the industrial revolution (4.00 / 1)
I'll just mention that the discovery of Newtonian mathematics had a lot to do with the enabling of the Industrial Revolution, and its absence explains why the IR did not happen during the Renaissance.

Well, As A Matter of Fact (4.00 / 1)
Discoveries fundamental to the development of calculus were also made in China and India, and it's now even thought possible that Indian work on infinite series made its way to Europe & was known by both Newton and Liebnitz.

The key difference was that neither China nor India were undergoing a dynamic evolution of technology that presented a plethora of problems that calculus alone could answer.  Without that, and all the other mathematicians whose attention was thus attracted, the calculus could have remained an esoteric mathematically curiosity for decades, centuries even.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
India's Bhaskara II invented derivatives c. 1150 AD, apparently. (4.00 / 2)
That's roughly 500 years before Newton and Leibnitz developed what we now know as calculus in the 17th century AD.

Bhaskara  is thought to be the first to show that:

   δ(sin x) = (cos x) δx

Integration being the inverse operation of differentiation (i.e., eg, integral of (cos x) is (sin x)), that was naturally around the corner as well, although there does not appear to be known evidence that Bhaskara himself explored integration.

This and the entire sequence of mathamatical evolution in India  (800 BC-1600 AD) is an important read to go with your interesting post:
-- Bhaskaracharya II
-- Indian mathematics primer.
-- Panini (mathematician and Sanskrit Grammarian, c. 500 BC)

Islamic invasions of India, which were disruptive of India's native cultures, fit in as the "predators" in your framework for the Indian context. They began in the current Afghan/Hindu Kush area in mid 600s AD, in the Sind (in present day Pakistan) area shortly after 700 AD (Qasim was the invader), and in "heartland" India with Ghazni's invasions that started c. 1000 AD. These, and the further invasions that followed, one can argue, upended the "natural evolution" from where the state of mathematics in India was to the Newton/post-Newton phase of math and science. If not, India, and along with it the rest of the world, may have advanced 500+ years ahead of the timeline of events in mathematics, science and technology that actually materialized.


[ Parent ]
I Remember Looking Into Both India & China (0.00 / 0)
back in the 70s, when I was a math undergrad.  There wasn't a lot of material I could find back then, and it was just sort of a sideline.  But it seemed pretty clear to me that the main difference culturally was that Europe was already on a pretty dramatic technological trajectory at the time, whereas China and India were both relatively stable.  There was a real hunger for what the calculus could do in Europe that simply didn't seem to exist in India and China at the time of their advances.

I also vaguely recall finding something about a similar development in Europe centuries earlier, among scholastic philosophers--William of Ockham, perhaps?  It's all quite vague now, but I recall there was theorizing about the integrals of qualities.  They were still very much lacking in the sort of technological surround that was very well established by the time of Newton.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I agree. (0.00 / 0)
Calculus was definitely a crucial turning point. Mechanical inventions (such as the stream engine and the internal combustion engine) could have been possible to come up with without calculus, but it is hard to imagine the development of electrical engineering w/o calculus.

Please see my post below on India's Bhaskara II inventing differentiation 500 years before Newton and Leibnitz.

Another beautiful invention (which is probably purely attributable to post-renaissance Europeans) is the notion of complex numbers (which are crucial not only for algebraic purposes, but also to understand and formalize alternating current.)

Field's medalist mathematician at Brown, Dr. David Mumford, is studying Indian mathematics, apparently. He recently wrote this review of Kim Plofker's book, Mathematics in India,  Princeton 2008.


[ Parent ]
Why we dont have atrue left/right divide (4.00 / 1)
On the whole, this a very well researched and pretty spot on analysis of why Democrats and liberalism have accomplished so little since the end of the Civil Rights movement. However, on the following point I believe you could not be further from the truth:

"But the last half century has been a period in which America's political parties--and its politics more generally--has become more aligned along traditional left/right divides--though some new forms were developed to facilitate this."

In retelling the origins of liberalism in the development of Europe in the past 500 years, I think you identified the traditional left/right divide quite correctly. That is the left usually represent forces of change that are attempting to fight against the predation of existing elites. It is this type of political divide, however, that is precisely what was lost when the New Deal coalition broke apart in the second half of the 20th century.

In most all Western countries there exists today some form of a workers or labor party. This, I would argue, is the true traditional left, at least in the context of modern capitalist societies, as clearly the corporate class is our new aristrocracy and workers are the those to whom predation is targeted. The New Deal coalition, which so radically changed the Democratic Party, it could hardly be considered the same institution that once defened slavery (anymore then the current Republican Party can be said to be the same as the Radical Republicans that fought to end slavery), was likely the only succesful workers party we have ever had in this country.

Following the Civil Rights movement, however, this coalition broke apart. If we look at voting patterns today we know that racial minority groups (Blacks, Asian, Latinos) generally tend to vote Democratic, that is to say they have remained with the old coalition of the left built around the New Deal, the Great Society, and Civil Rights. We know, also, that Democrats almost never win the "White" vote. But this term "White" is a little decieving. It represents dozens of different ethnic groups and cultures, with very different histories in America. What White groups do Democrats usually win, in other words which groups stayed with the left coalition that FDR et al built? The answer, Jewish Americans and to a lesser degree white Catholics, who have essentially become the swing voters in the middle of racially based political divide. Republicans, on the other hand, fairly handily claim the White Protestant vote.

Why am I going into religion when talking about ethnic divides you may ask? Well the reason is that there is no data available really on how say, people of Romanian, Irish, Italian, etc. ancestry vote. What we do know, however, is that most of the southern and eastern European immigrant groups that came after the Civil War, were largely Catholic or Jewish. We also know that most of the earlier western and nothern European immigrants, as well as the colonials, were largely protestant. My argument is thus that Civil Rights was used as a wedge to once again divide American workers on ethnic lines. Following the Civil Rights movement, White Protestants, regardless of class, by and large bolted from the New Deal colation. White Catholics, left in large numbers as well, but Democrats are still able to win their vote if only by small margins.

The Jewish and Catholic immigrants from Europe that arrived at the turn of the 20th century arrived from what were then essentialy 3rd world countries. They arrived poor, and often undeducated or even illiterate. They experienced a great deal of ethnic discrimination, and indeed were not generally considered to be White until after the Second World War. On the other hand colonials and earlier immigrants came largely from the wealthy imperial powers of Europe, where never considered to be part of another racial group, nor did they ever experience anything close to the same level of ethnic discrimination as their Jewish and Catholic counterparts. It is also likely important that the Jewish and Catholic immigrants came at a time when slavery had already been abolished, and moved overwhelming to the North and the West. That is to say, while certainly by no means exempt from being racists themselves (towards Blacks or towards competeting immigrant groups), they were never vested in the same way or to the same degree into the systems of slavery and segregation as were White Protestants. Indeed, it was their votes that proelled into power the Democrats who eventually ended de jur segregation.

So the system we ended up with is as you described, with neoliberals sitting astride both parties. They are able to do so, because the working people are divided between the two parties along largely ethnic lines. To overcome this obstacle it will be necessary to rebuild a true left coalition of all working people across these ethnic divides, so that we may once again have a true workers party in this country. That will mean developing a progressivism that can appeal to large numbers of disaffected White Catholics, and even working and middle class White Porestants. The left, that is the working and middle classes, are the clear majority in this country, but so long as we remain divided as we are we will not be able to exercise our power as such.

----------------------

On another note:

"And, of course, [the neoliberals] are fundamentally not that different from neoconservatives when push comes to shove in the war-fighting department...They just pay a lot more attention to efficient and effective details."

Much the way the northern industrialists took up the cause of the abolitionists primarily because they believed wage labor to be a more efficient and effective means of exploiting labor than slavery. It also allowed them to overthrow the quasi-aristocratic Southern slave owning class, and proceed to buy up the farm land for use in industrialized corporate agriculture.


I Said America Was More Complicated (4.00 / 1)
But to stress most starkly what your analysis is missing, you have to recognize these three things:

(1) The Democratic party used to have many more conservatives in it--especially, though not exclusively in the South. The shift of the parties to become more ideologically unified (much moreso for the GOP) is the sense I was thinking of when I first thought of the passage you quote.  But it was immediately buttressed by the following two considerations.

(2) The heaviest shift of whites to the GOP has not just been Protestants, but Scots Irish, who are notoriously militaristic.  Maybe not your classic predators, since they were far too often the prey--but that only made their predatory mindset all the more ferocious.

(3) The dividing lines that now exist are ones based most fundamentally on identity and the urban-cosmopolitan/rural-exurban-suburban-parochial divide, which is how left and right have tended to divide all the way back to ancient Greece.  Don't forget, the rural working class (peasantry) has long been extremely reactionary, rellgiously primative and superstitious.  It's urbanization more than anything that turns them into a progressive force par excellence.

A class-based progressive politics can't get much traction with working class elements for whom economic progress is not a rationally attainable goal.  That's a very real barrier we're up against.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Can You Expand? (0.00 / 0)
Can you expand on what you mean here:

A class-based progressive politics can't get much traction with working class elements for whom economic progress is not a rationally attainable goal.  That's a very real barrier we're up against.

So are you positing that among the working class, economic progress is viewed as not attainable for the individual/family or for the class as a whole?  I think that the answer to that is dispositive of how to build a coherent politics of the left -- it's the difference too between neoliberal and progressive policy approaches, in many ways, within the Democratic sphere, and perhaps the thing still sitting outside the bounds of American exceptionalism.


[ Parent ]
Not Exactly (0.00 / 0)
It's more that I think a lot of people have no clear idea of how their material lives can improve.  I think that it's clearer in some places where you have more examples of success, which is part of why more technological, innovative communities are more Democratic.

But the South in particular--and many non-urban parts of the rest of the country, I just don't think people have much of a sense of how things could get better--other than conning your way into a reality-TV contract, that is.

This isn't just about the white working class, either, as the example of black churches embracing the "prosperity gospel" shows, for example.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Rephrasing; Differentiation of "That It Can" vs. "How It Can" (0.00 / 0)
Sorry if I was somewhat obtuse in my original question.  I meant to ask:

So, are you positing that among the working class, economic progress is viewed as unattainable for:

the individual/family?

OR

the class as a whole?

In your response, you said

...I think a lot of people have no clear idea of how their material lives can improve.

and

...I just don't think people have much of a sense of how things could get better...

These statements are different from what I understood you to have stated above.  In the previous post, you phrase it as a matter of the working class being uncertain that their material economic condition CAN get better; in the response to my reply, you phrase differently as being uncertain HOW it can get better.

I think that qualitative difference, be it centered upon working class individuals/families or the working class as a class, matters greatly.  

As we on the left produce an alternative framework of analysis that differentiates between our vision and that of the rightist neoliberals and conservatives*, we can produce in the working class a sense of how we got here and how we get from here to utopia (or wherever else we are saying things can go).  With this sense becoming more diffuse, I think that working people can see that the material economic condition can improve.  

And I'm a social scientist of sorts, so I think that the individual vs. class-as-a-whole thing can probably melt away with scale.  Can individuals buy into a vision of reality through a lens of left-oriented critical analysis?  Sure.  Can the group as a whole?  Yes -- and it will proceed upward and downward throughout the class to individuals and vice versa.  The key is scaling up the diffusion of such an alternative framework of analysis (of political economy).  

But I'd definitely love to hear your take on it.  

* = I don't use "neoconservative" outside of the foreign affairs context.  To me, the typology of ideological adherents matters, because there are vary degrees of fine-grain in qualitative differences.  A neo-conservative is a different beast to me from the regressive or revanchist conservative.  Differing value and belief systems predicated upon different ideological frameworks and principles.  But that's mostly minor quibbling.  Clearly, I'm in academia right now, as the distinctions that amount to minor differences matter much less than the broad strokes of it all -- but without the minor things, how would anyone ever write a decent paper for publishing? :)


[ Parent ]
It's Not That Complicated, Peter (4.00 / 2)
Back in the early 60s, in junior high school, I remember my Spanish teacher one day explaining about the lottery in Mexico, how it was the only way people could imagine every getting ahead.  And I remember thinking how tragic that was.

Well, basically, that's America today.  So we're not even in a position where the distinctions you're asking about could arise.

But not quite.  Cause we're not Catholic.  We've also got the prosperity gospel, as described in my
2008 review of God's Profits by Sarah Posner.  Here are two passages I quoted from the book:

The main tenets of Word of Faith are revelation knowledge, through which the believer derives knowledge directly from God, rather than from the senses; identification, through which the believer is inhabited by God and is another incarnation of Jesus; positive confession, or the power of the believer to call things into existence; the right of believers to divine health; and the right of believers to divine wealth. The believer, a "little god," is anointed and therefore can reject reason in favor of revelation, a "higher knowledge that contradicts the senses." It is through revelation knowledge that the Word of Faith movement has created its alternate universe in which rational thought is rejected and where the media, intellectual thought, science, and any type of critical thinking are scorned. Drawing on the Pentecostal tradition of casting out devils, pursuits associated with the Enlightenment are denounced as the work of Satan.

And, regarding its appeal across racial lines:

Sociologist Milmon F. Harrison, who has documented the increasing popularity of Word of Faith among African Americans, writes that "the harsh realities of Reagan-era economic policies for the nation's most vulnerable were very different form what was being portrayed of American life byh the mass entertainment media. Popular culture of the time seemed to be shaped by the mass media procuders' obsession with glorifying consumption through many highly successful television programs." These programs included Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous, Dynasty, Dallas, Falcon Crest, Miami Vice, and the popular porgram that symbolized black upward mobility, The Cosby Show.  According to Harrison, "the reality of life in many African-American families belied the Regan administration's claims.... of unbridled upward mobility and access to wealth and prosperity for all who worked hard."  As a result, Word of Faith offered "a shining hope and an answer to the question why some people (especially born-again Christians) were not prospering in the midst of so much wealth.  The answer was that those people had not been taught what the Bible really says about wealth and who should possess it.   What appeared to be impossible through mere hard work and the secular opportunity structure God's favor could make possible for believers who know they are in Christ."

BTW, Obama is quite close to one of the leading prosperity gospel ministers, according to Posner.



"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Only 1/3 really applies. (0.00 / 0)
Thank you for your response. Of the threee things, however, only one really represents what is missing from my analysis (I by no means am claiming that it is complete or fuly researched analysis, was trying simply to share my perspective with the information available to me).

First and foremost your second point is simply false because the Scots Irish are predominantly Protestant. So they do represent exactly was I was speaking of, White Protestants fleeing the New Deal coalition after Civil Rights.

Your first point is true, but that is more or less also exactly what I has saying in my first comment. The southern conservatives you speak of that were lost from the Democratic Party were again largely White Protestants. I perhaps didn´t make this point clear enough, though I did mention that turn of the century immigrants went largely North and West and not South (hence the White population in the South is ovewhelmingly Protestant, and I don't think it was Black conservatives that made up most of the defectors).

Your third point, about the Urban/Rural divide is an important one that I did not address in my first comment. However, I do not believe it is fair to say the peasentry is largely reactionary. If we look at many of the revolutions that took place in the 1800s and 1900s, which were primarily waged to overthrow a feudal land based elite in favor of a modern capitalist industrial elite (much the same as our Civil War), the peasentry was often one of the first groups to rise up.

The peasents led by Emiliano Zapata in the Mexican Revolution are a perfect example. Whether in France, Mexico or anywhere else these revolutions to overthrow the old predators often failed or succeeded based on their ability to unite the rural peasentry and the urban proletariat (usually under the lead of urban intelectuals and merchants).

It is true that the peasentry like the modern rural/small town working class, are often socially much more conservative, and this has long been a barrier in uniting the two groups mentioned above. Furthermore these divides have certainly been used by Republicans to get the working class to vote against their economic interests by appealing to their conservative social values. That does not, however, explain why, in the current climate where economic issues are clearly trumping social values in the minds of voter, non-urban White Protestants seem so unwilling to join with the urban working class for economic change.

This same group did exactly that during the Great Depression when the New Deal Coalition was formed. And they broke off from it only when Blacks and later Latinos and Asians where added to that coalition. Even in the face of a crisis that is the closest we have come to a second Great Depression, non-urban White Protestants refuse to join back with the urban working class now that it includes Blacks, Latinos and Asians (who were either not present or could not vote in the 1930s). A simple look at the Tea Parties can give you an idea what degree race and ethnic identity might play in that. Now obviously correlation does not prove causation, but the case is still pretty compelling that racial/ethnic identity (particularly, but not only, in regards to how one's family came to this country, and how deep those roots are) are a driving force behind our current political divide.

As for elements of the working class not seeing economic progress as a rationally attainable goal, I think it is at least reasonable to question what role perceived racial/ethnic/cultural differences play in that as well. The right in this country, particularly since the 1980s, has done a very good job of associating Welfare and social programs in general with minority groups, thus fostering a sentitment among many Whites that progressive policies would favor minorities at their expense. The left, on the other hand, has failed completely to reframe the debate as it truly is, that social programs should attempt to balance disparities between social classes not races.

Anyways, considering that when another commentar asked ¨Why are so many of the American Proletariat conservative?¨ You asnwered by simply saying ¨race¨ and presented data showing that countries where the people, and thus the working class, are more racially divided have less social spending (thanks for providing those links by the way), it would seem you more or less agree with my basic premise that racial/cultural/ethnic differences (or the perception thereof) drive the current political divide that makes it so hard to achieve progressive policies, and has allowed neo-liberal ideology to dominate both parties.

The focus I like to bring is that a huge part of our cultural divides are not between the large umbrella categories of White, Black, Asian and Latino, but within the so called ¨White¨ race (and within the other groups too, but that is another discussion). It seems, though, that mentioning anything which might challenge the fragile and ahistorical view of one homogenous White majority is becoming more and more taboo.


[ Parent ]
The Warrior/Producer Divide (0.00 / 0)
I could get down into the weeds and attempt clarifications or argue fine points with you--calling peasants reactionary is a broad judgment on overall tendencies, not a blanket statement meant to deny any possibility of disruptive openings, for example.

But, really, all the fine differences devolve from a difference in the main concept I'm advancing here, which is one that's different from the Marxist/class analysis approach.  I'm saying that the right/left divide is in some sense derived from the divide between warriors and producers--not just in who people are, but who's outlook they adopt, or regard as hegemonic.

This is not entirely incompatible with a standard Marxist/materialist approach to class analysis, but it's much more Gramscian, and doesn't see the phenomena of "false consciousness" as some sort of residual error, but rather as something that's universally present, and not so much "false" in its essence, but rather imaginative.

Finally, it's extremely odd that you should say this:

The focus I like to bring is that a huge part of our cultural divides are not between the large umbrella categories of White, Black, Asian and Latino, but within the so called ¨White¨ race (and within the other groups too, but that is another discussion). It seems, though, that mentioning anything which might challenge the fragile and ahistorical view of one homogenous White majority is becoming more and more taboo.

Considering that I myself singled out the warrior culture background of the Scots Irish.

For more of my thoughts on white culture's internal divisions, see "Political Correctness vs. Discussing American Culture At DKos " and "Jane Smiley and James Webb-Contrasting Views on The Scots Irish", both of which draw heavily on novelist Jane Smiley's interpretive discussion of the book Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America, by David Hackett Fischer.



"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Not fine points at all. (0.00 / 0)
What I was debating was not fine points of nuance or semantics at all, but actually larger differences in perspectives. As far as peasants the point I was trying to make is not just that there are some exceptions, I disagree entirely with the overall premise that peasants have an overall tendency towards the reactionary. Culturally conservative, yes, of course, but economically or politically reactionary, I do not think that is the overall tendency.

It can appear that way in the United States because race and social values have been used for so long as a wedge. But historically and globally I think it is quite the opposite. Peasants have usually been the leaders of progressive change. And if you look throughout, for example, Latin America today you will find many campesinos who are quite firmly on the left (again with the exception of social issues like abortion).

Indeed, I believe this coincides very well with your view of the left right divide as producers and predators. Peasants are the ultimate producers. City dwellers, in some sense, have always been predators of sorts of the farming classes. The economic exchange between city and country has almost always and everywhere been unequal to the favor of the city. They work of producing food is clearly the most important labor any human can do; it is the labor by which all other labor is possible. Yet what is the status held usually by the people who actually work in the field: peasant, surf, slave, illegal immigrant. Whatever the name it is almost always one which puts them at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder.

Furthermore, I fail to see how your producer predator divide is any different than a class one, besides the difference in language. A producer is, by definition, a person who works for what he has, who produces value with his labor. A predator is one who lives by consuming the work of others, whether as a warrior, an aristocrat, a slave owner, or a banker, the pattern of behavior is the same. Marx called those who produce with their labor the proletariat, and those who through predation live off the surplus value of those workers the bourgeoisie. You have merely changed the names my friend.

Also, you never did address the fact that the examples you gave of Southern conservatives and Scots Irish defecting from the Democratic Party in fact represent exactly the racial divide I spoke of, since both groups are overwhelmingly White Protestant, and White Protestants are clearly the very base of the Republican party, and the one group that Democrats have not been able to win in decades. You seem to have some contention with my analysis - that ethnic identity drives the current R vs. D divide, and thus splits the working class - yet as I said when you were asked by another you also stated that race was the primary reason why so many working class Americans are conservative. Now, however, it sounds as though you attribute this to some perceived militarism of the Scots Irish, and a believe that the South, because it is rural, simply has to be conservative (as opposed to asking yourself why the South, despite much higher poverty, is still so economically conservative...you already know my answer). I stand by my claim that the evidence, including the links you provided on social spending and racial diversity, point much more strongly to race and ethnicity as the source of our political divides.

As for this thing about false consciousness, I never once wrote a word of that, and I am by no stretch of the imagination a Marxist (in many ways I believe Marx did more harm than good to the struggle of working people). Working class conservatives voting against their economic interests has nothing to do with false consciousness, it simply shows a preference (I believe) for cultural and ethnic identity, over class identity. I personally believe that class identity, especially in politics, ought to be more important (at least more so than it is now in the US), but there is nothing false about preferring cultural or ethnic identity.

Cultural and ethnic differences do exist, I think they can be easily exaggerated, especially by politicians who want to win elections, but they are real. I argue that by focusing too much on culture and ethnicity, one sacrifices much potential for economic progress. Others would argue that by focusing too much on class identity one risks losing their culture and heritage (I think this is a very real fear in America, especially in regards to immigration). Probably both are true to some degree. I feel we err too far in the direction of ethnic politics in this country, but then again I come from a family of east European immigrants, I do not have the same attachment to Anglo American culture, so that is perhaps a bit of my own bias as well.

Finally my last comment about the seeming taboo about challenging the idea of a single homogenous White majority, was not intended to be directed at you specifically (I see why it was taken that way, given the conversation). I have not read enough of your writing to make that judgment, though I will try to check out those links you posted. I made my comment more out of a frustration I feel when discussing the topic that many react with the assumption that it is fueled by a prejudice against certain White groups.

I feel that this largely ahistorical concept that everyone is either White, Black, Latino or Asian is becoming more and more rigid, and that it greatly glosses over the history of this country and its people. It also ignores the very real racial divides in Latin America by simply lumping them all together as Latino, regardless of whether they are White (i.e. of Spaniard decent), Mestizo, indigenous, Black, mulatto or in some cases even Asian and Arab immigrants who came to Latin America.


[ Parent ]
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