It's who you are, not what you do--ACORN/Catholic Church edition

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Apr 04, 2010 at 09:00


This week saw the demise of ACORN followed by its most solid vindication from the California Attorney General's office, juxtaposed with the Catholic Church's spiraling descent into incoherent babbling as more than half a century of criminal conspiracy in hiding and protecting child molesters finally threatens to demand a full accounting.

The fact that ACORN could be destroyed by lies despite no criminal activity, while the Catholic Church has avoided any criminal penalties for engaging in conduct that the Mafia wouldn't forgive speaks volumes about the state of hegemonic struggle in America and the world today.

This is not about Catholic-bashing.  The countless victims of these unspeakable crimes were all Catholics.  It's about the patriarchal hierarchy, which has long outlived not only its usefulness, but its moral credibility as well.  Sinead O'Connor--herself a victim of (non-sexual) child abuse by the church--in an eloquent Op-Ed put it squarely when she called the Pope and his co-conspirators the churches "alleged leaders", after explaining:

To Irish Catholics, Benedict's implication -- Irish sexual abuse is an Irish problem -- is both arrogant and blasphemous. The Vatican is acting as though it doesn't believe in a God who watches. The very people who say they are the keepers of the Holy Spirit are stamping all over everything the Holy Spirit truly is. Benedict criminally misrepresents the God we adore. We all know in our bones that the Holy Spirit is truth. That's how we can tell that Christ is not with these people who so frequently invoke Him.

On Monday, Democracy Now discussed the Church's pedophilia coverup crisis with Bridget Mary Meehan, a dissident female bishop, who is part of a growing movement to reform and transform the Church from below, along transparent, egalitarian, non-sexist lines. (Her blog is here.) In the interview, she said:

This is very, very serious, because standards of accountability must apply from the top down. There needs to be an entire shake-up of the whole Catholic system. And we need to begin by truth-telling. Roman Catholic Womenpriests are calling for a truth commission, made up of the non-ordained, the victims, and people of integrity, to examine the crisis in its implications for Church structure, for renewal, for reform. And we believe that any structural change must include the end of mandatory celibacy, married priest, and women priest. We must really change the way the Church does business and become a more accountable, open, transparent and just Church.

Hopefully, this extremely painful episode (an "episode" only in millenia-long history of the church sense) will eventuate in a radical transformation of the Church that will leave it much closer to the original communal and collegial form it had when it was the church of the Roman Empire's multi-cultural, multi-racial underclass--not the church of the Empire.

Paul Rosenberg :: It's who you are, not what you do--ACORN/Catholic Church edition
As just one part of the multi-faceted story now exploding world-wide, this past Wednesday, SNAP (The Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests) released a dozen pages of once secret church records in Los Angeles--documents proving that the Pope and other top Catholic officials - in Rome and America - knew a good deal about pedophile priests decades ago.  In an advance press release SNAP said:

Newly released records, including letters to the Vatican in the 1960s, show a Catholic official admitting a "tremendous problem" of predator priests. The documents prove that almost 50 years ago, top church staff knew how widespread and incorrigible pedophiles are. They severely undercut recent claims by the Pope's defenders that he and others in the church hierarchy mishandled cases because they were "on a learning curve."

Some of the records are written by the head of the Paracletes, a religious order that tries to rehabilitate predator priests. Decades ago, he admitted that "There are now in many parts of the world (facilities) "where 'Christ's wounded priests' may be cared for." In another shocking acknowledgement, he said that 30% of all priesthood candidates who are first rebuffed because of "question(able) qualifications" are later ordained because "someone in authority overruled" the initial rejection. He also urged the Vatican to adopt a "heavy penalty" for those "tampering with the innocence of the young," including "retirement . . .within a monastery" or "complete (defrocking)," in part because "Many experienced priests agree (we) not turning out men as dedicated to their priesthood as we did in former days."

The cleric had a private audience with then-Pope Paul VI and later wrote that he opposed "the return of priests to active duty that have been addicted to abnormal practices, especially sins with the young."

These records, and thousands of other similar pages, were to be made public as part of the $660 million Los Angeles Archdiocese settlement in 2007. Church defense lawyers are still fighting to keep those records hidden.

Several times during his papacy, Benedict has urged bishop to be "transparent" with child sex cases. In light of his advice, and recent disclosures of abuse and cover up in the Pope's home diocese in Germany, SNAP wants the pontiff to publicly disclosed how he handled hundreds of cases from across the globe from 2001-2005 as head of CDF (the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith), the Vatican office where all such cases are sent.

The Church has told so many lies it's virtually impossible to keep track of them all.  But here is perhaps one of the most central and damning of them: the revelation of just how far back knowledge of a systemic, widespread evil goes--without doing anything remotely effective or responsible to stop it.  According to a story in the New York Times this week:

The founder of a Roman Catholic religious order that ran retreat centers for troubledpriests warned American bishops in forceful letters dating back to 1952 that pedophiles should be removed from the priesthood because they could not be cured.

,,,,

From the 1940's through the 1960's, bishops and superiors of religious orders sent their problem priests to Father Fitzgerald to be healed. He founded the Servants of the Paraclete in 1947 ("paraclete" means "Holy Spirit"), and set up a retreat house in Jemez Springs, N.M.

He took in priests who were struggling with alcoholism, drug abuse or pedophilia, or who had broken their vows of celibacy, whether with men or women. He called them "guests." His prescription was prayer and spiritual devotion to the sacraments, which experts say was the church's prevailing approach at that time.

At one point, he resolved not to accept pedophiles at his center, saying in a letter to the archbishop of New Mexico in 1957, "These men, Your Excellency, are devils, and the wrath of God is upon them, and if I were a bishop I would tremble when I failed to report them to Rome for involuntary layization."

Laicization - or removing a priest from the priesthood - was what Father Fitzgerald recommended for many abusive priests to bishops and Pope Paul VI.

But that step was rarely taken, said the Rev. Thomas Doyle, a whistle-blower who often serves as an expert witness in cases against the church, "because the priesthood was considered to be so sacred that taking it away from a man was something you simply did not do."

Thus, the perverted rightwing attempt to blame priestly pedophilia on secular post-60s influences of the left must needs also involve time-travel as well.  I'm thinking particularly of the NY Times' Ross Douthat writing this:

This hasn't prevented both sides in the Catholic culture war from claiming that the scandal vindicates their respective vision of the church. Liberal Catholics, echoed by the secular press, insist that the whole problem can be traced to clerical celibacy. Conservatives blame the moral relativism that swept the church in the upheavals of the 1970s, when the worst abuses and cover-ups took place.

In reality, the scandal implicates left and right alike. The permissive sexual culture that prevailed everywhere, seminaries included, during the silly season of the '70s deserves a share of the blame, as does that era's overemphasis on therapy. (Again and again, bishops relied on psychiatrists rather than common sense in deciding how to handle abusive clerics.) But it was the church's conservative instincts - the insistence on institutional loyalty, obedience and the absolute authority of clerics - that allowed the abuse to spread unpunished.

(Douthat is, of course, completely silent about the utter failure of prayer, fasting, pastoral counseling and--presumably--exorcism to cure pedophiles, because that's exactly the wrong sort of balance, as all good citizens of Versailles rightly know.)

There is, quite simply, no end to the lies the Church hierarchy and it's rightwing defenders will tell.  Truth is something entirely foreign to them.



p.s. I happened to see an old episode of Law & Order this week, based on an early real-life case in which a priest was convicted of molesting 28 children.  The Church itself was kept entirely off-screen, giving its blessing to the investigation.  There were some critical comments from the detectives, and at one point the ADA talked about naming the Church as an unindicted co-conspirator--but only to allow prosecution beyond the normal statute of limitations.  The episode was "Bad Faith", and it was from 1995, featuring a pre-Sex in the City Chris Noth and pre-Crossing Jordan Jill Hennesy.

The case it was based on was from 1993.  It's been that long since we've had indisputable, well-publicized evidence (there were earlier cases in the mid-80s) that the Church has been hiding and protecting pedophiles, foisting them off on one parish after another, giving them new flocks to prey on, once they are exposed in the old ones--in effect, functioning as procurers, far and away the largest pedophile procurement operation in the world.



ACORN

On the other hand, we find the exact opposite situation with ACORN.  Although the California Attorney General's report finds evidence of managerial sloppiness resulting in potential civil liability, mirroring earlier findings, this is the first investigation to finally get its hands on the unedited tapes, and thus to confirm what ACORN itself and all other evidence previously pointed to: a well-crafted con-job by the purported "conservative media activist."  From the AG's press release:

Last September, Gov. Schwarzenegger asked Brown to investigate the activities of ACORN in California. His request was triggered by tapes made by undercover videographer James O'Keefe III that purported to show ACORN employees providing advice on how to conduct a prostitution ring and commit other serious crimes.

But new, unedited videotapes discovered through Brown's investigation, as well as other evidence, shed clearer light on interactions between O'Keefe and the now-defunct ACORN.

Videotapes secretly recorded last summer and severely edited by O'Keefe seemed to show ACORN employees encouraging a "pimp" (O'Keefe) and his "prostitute," actually a Florida college student named Hannah Giles, in conversations involving prostitution by underage girls, human trafficking and cheating on taxes. Those videos created a media sensation.

Evidence obtained by Brown tells a somewhat different story, however, as reflected in three videotapes made at ACORN locations in California. One ACORN worker in San Diego called the cops. Another ACORN worker in San Bernardino caught on to the scheme and played along with it, claiming among other things that she had murdered her abusive husband. Her two former husbands are alive and well, the Attorney General's report noted. At the beginning and end of the Internet videos, O'Keefe was dressed as a 1970s Superfly pimp, but in his actual taped sessions with ACORN workers, he was dressed in a shirt and tie, presented himself as a law student, and said he planned to use the prostitution proceeds to run for Congress. He never claimed he was a pimp.

"The evidence illustrates," Brown said, "that things are not always as partisan zealots portray them through highly selective editing of reality. Sometimes a fuller truth is found on the cutting room floor."

The original storm of publicity created by O'Keefe's videotapes was instrumental in ACORN's subsequent denunciation in Congress, a sudden tourniquet on its funding, and the organization's eventual collapse.

In short, while ACORN itself was guilty of sloppy management, its failures pale in comparison to the failures of all those who took the sting videos at face value, never bothering to discover for themselves if what they purported to show was actually true.  Thus Congress not only acted recklessly and unconstitutionally (anyone remember the invasion of Iraq?), but utterly foolishly as well. (Anyone?)

The same is also true of all the foundations that withdrew support for ACORN as well.  While conservatives have closed ranks in support of child molesters central, liberal powers that be fled in horror from an organization with an unmatched record of work registering low-income & minority voters, and providing them with a wide range of services as well as organizing assistance--based solely on the un-investigated public impressions created by an avowed conservative activist.

As far as hegemonic warfare goes, this isn't a case of bringing a knife to gunfight.  It isn't even a case of bringing a yogurt spoon to a nuclear war, as I sometimes say.  It's a case of bringing a wakizashi (Samurai short sword) to a seppuku (ritual suicide).

But if anyone should be committing seppuku, it's the liberal foundation establishment.  They have behaved abominably.  They have behaved like traitors.  And that's exactly what they are.


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It wasn't the point of your column (4.00 / 6)
but I am struck by the parallels between the efforts of the church to slink away from its history of child molestation and our government's efforts to slink away from our history of torture.  And, the rightwing's defense of the hierarchies that promoted and supported both.  That would be utterly consistent for those of an authoritarian bent who want to preserve the patriarchal hierarchy and their place in it, but wherefore the liberal elements of these institutions?  Their compliant acceptance is equally damning.

There's a lot about Alan Grayson's foreign policy position with respect to Israel that I don't like, but he was the only member of Congress to offer public support to ACORN that I am aware of... perhaps, there were others.

As for the liberal foundation establishment - which used to include elements of the Roman Catholic Church - their betrayal seems full circle, to me.


That's A Good Parallel, All Right (4.00 / 2)
Accountability for thee, but not for me is the authoritarian watchword on such matters.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I would also ask why James O' Keefe's been able to skate away twice (0.00 / 0)
now from appropriate criminal prosecution. I'm not clear on why Jerry Brown felt it necessary to offer up immunity for what was a clear and blatant violation of the CA Invasion of Privacy Act. And I'm especially not clear on why the Landrieu office break in was downgraded to a misdemeanor.

 


[ Parent ]
If You're Not Clear (0.00 / 0)
then please re-read the diary.

Or at least the title.  The part that says "It's who you are, not what you do".

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The title just gets right to the heart of it, doesn't it? Beyond that it's a (4.00 / 1)
matter of the ugly details. Over at Kos, there's a decent (I have some quibbles about the thoroughness, divergent focus, and lack of linkage) diary on what is likely to be the US Conference of Catholic Bishops' next target, now that they've got that dirty ACORN residue of their hands: the newly loaded term, community health centers.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/...

There are so many ugly details to be had here.


[ Parent ]
Sinead has both the facts and the truth (4.00 / 6)
I had not listened to Sinead for a long time. It had never occurred to me until this morning that "Nothing Compares 2 U" might have been about the loss, not of her faith, she appears to have plenty of that, but of her religion. Then again, until I read her editorial, I did not really know her childhood background. I can relate.

Religion is on the ropes because it has abandoned its commitment to truth. If faith is not faith in the truth, there is no faith. If hope is not hope in the truth, there is no hope. I love science and reason because they pursue the truth for its own sake. Sinead reminded me that religious faith also pursues the truth. A truth not established by facts, but by the belief that what we call virtues -- love, compassion, charity, patience, hope -- are as true as facts and that to act or speak against them is a lie and not of god.

Our Declaration of Independence says that certain of these types of truths are self-evident: life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness. To pretend otherwise, or to make excuses is a lie against all humanity. Because of that, this kind of lie cannot, under any circumstances, be condoned.


I wish (4.00 / 1)
there was a number higher than 4 to score this.  Well said.

[ Parent ]
Justice And Truth (4.00 / 5)
Martin Luther King used the following formulation:

If physical death is the price that some must pay to free their children and their white brothers from a permanent death of the spirit, then nothing can be more redemptive. Yes, we were singing about it just a few minutes ago: "We shall overcome; we shall overcome, deep in my heart I do believe we shall overcome."

And I believe it because somehow the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice. We shall overcome because Carlyle is right: "No lie can live forever." We shall overcome because William Cullen Bryant is right: "Truth crushed to earth will rise again." We shall overcome because James Russell Lowell is right: "Truth forever on the scaffold, wrong forever on the throne. Yet, that scaffold sways the future and behind the dim unknown standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above his own."



"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Her own songs are much more political (4.00 / 2)
"Nothing Compares 2 U' was written for her by Prince.  But check out the next song on that album: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

She put together a whole album, titled Theology, exploring the problems of religion, also.  To me, she's one of those artists whose depth of work has kind of been hidden by her superhit.


[ Parent ]
Actually (4.00 / 1)
Prince wrote the song for The Family, whose membership included several members of The Time.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
I Knew It! I Knew It! (4.00 / 1)
Prince's secret connection with Mark Sanford!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
And Sanford's connection to Morris Day! (nt) (4.00 / 1)


Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.

[ Parent ]
But What About Gladys Knight? n/t (0.00 / 0)


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
"The Holy Spirit is truth." (4.00 / 2)
I am ashamed to admit I never thought of that before, and yet it fits. It explains why it is at once dreadful and wonderful.

Montani semper liberi

Many people died for our sins, and with any luck, we'll resurrect all of them eventually (4.00 / 5)
This is a tough one for Easter morning, even if you aren't religious. It isn't that people haven't done a lot of thinking about such things, they have. It's just that - to me at least -- almost all of it seems incomplete. I suppose I ought to read more post-modernists -- God forbid -- since they seem to the current experts in the morphology of meanings unconnected to their original foundations.

My difficulty with post-modernism up to now has been its confidence, bordering on arrogance, that it's found a sure way through the veil. (It doesn't help, either, that some of the conclusions of individual pomos seem to me to be, to put it kindly, true but irrelevant.) Be that as it may, when I look at two parallel stories like this, where the noun in each case seems so much more important than the verb, I find myself scratching my head. Why isn't it obvious to many more people that there's a double standard lurking in the difference between the conclusions drawn about ACORN, and those about the Roman Church hierarchy?

The simplest answer, I suppose, is that a cultural institution often defines its own limits, and its own distinctiveness, by what it chooses to lie about. Unless the concept of a single God is defended, if necessary at the point of a sword, the Church is just one more merchant of abstractions. If His rules aren't held to be inviolable, no matter how often they're violated, the Church is just another costume drama. Likewise, if a society doesn't defend its own cultural institutions, no matter how iffy their original provenance, it ceases to be what it is. (The Church, The South, The Senate.) This makes people extremely nervous, and rightly so. Why should they be expected to welcome the threat of chaos into their beliefs, let alone into their lives?

If there was anything unique about the United States early on, it was the promise that here our government wouldn't invest in propping up institutions just because its people were familiar with them, but would instead invest in the stewardship of change, to create a space in which institutions which developed nasty habits -- such as using our children as unpaid prostitutes -- could be done away with more or less quietly and replaced with something more suitable.

Needless to say, that project never came to complete fruition, and probably never could have, given human nature, but we did have a pretty good run at it. Even today, many of our simplest souls still consider themselves the masters of their own destiny to an extent which would be inconceivable anywhere else in the world.

ACORN got the axe because it was new, and because it attacked the founding lie of a more established institution -- our government. And what lie was that? I hear someone asking. The one about democracy, the one about the truths we hold to be self-evident. That lie. The Church didn't get the axe because anyone who had an axe was taken into the fold long ago. I suspect that if we wait a bit more, the Church will implode. Then again, the Church has been around a long time, longer than any of us. That alone may make it hard for anyone to declaw its predators. Still, it shouldn't stop is from trying. Whether the Church finally worn out its welcome or not, there's no reason for any of us outside its doors to be polite. On the contrary.

I'd put it this way. If Jesus died for our sins, so did Martin Luther King. On this Easter Sunday, I think that a reverence for the truth should compel us to admit that of the two institutions in question, ACORN has done a far better job of honoring their sacrifice than the Roman Church has done.


Between ACORN & The Vatican (4.00 / 1)
it should be obvious who cared more about the least of these.

Well said, William.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Well said, William (4.00 / 3)
The Church didn't get the axe because anyone who had an axe was taken into the fold long ago. I suspect that if we wait a bit more, the Church will implode. Then again, the Church has been around a long time, longer than any of us. That alone may make it hard for anyone to declaw its predators.

Somewhere along the line Digby lost the search capability on her site and her archives refuse to give up a full month's worth of columns (or, my version of Firefox is the problem).  She wrote a piece about the Catholic Church extending an invitation to Catholics disaffected by the Episcopal Church's position on gays.  And, she quoted from a more recent letter from an Episcopalian reminding Catholics that the Episcopal church was a close cousin in regards to the Catholic hierarchy's response to recent revelations about child molestation.  All of which reminds me that a Reformation occurred once before.  As I recall indulgences were at the heart of it.


[ Parent ]
Boy Howdy! You Ain't Kiddin'! (4.00 / 3)
I'm listening to peace activist, best-selling author and former priest James Carrol delivering a withering and incredibly erudite analysis of what's happening to the Church.  He's comparing it to the collapse of the Soviet Union--once the moral authority is gone, everything can collapse with amazing speed.

The Digby diary you want is here.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Thanks, Paul (4.00 / 1)
The idiosyncrasies of FF on my machine did turn out to be the problem.  Appreciate the assist!

once the moral authority is gone, everything can collapse with amazing speed

And, given Obama's response to torture, I'd observe this could be true for our government as well - or at least, what we quaintly refer to as our Rule of Law.


[ Parent ]
These episodes are a good reminder (4.00 / 5)
that the journalistic convention of "on the one side...on the other side" is only deployed when two "serious" sides are in dispute.  That one side makes nonsense claims is irrelevant to whether their position will be treated as legitimate.  

For ACORN, it had no defenders. Democratic officials, many of whom in fact benefited from ACORN's voter registration work, refused to call the attacks nonsense, and indeed jumped on the bandwagon to attack them. (Of course, lots of new voters is threatening to incumbents, who might prefer to avoid such an influx even though it would improve the electoral prospects for Democrats in general.)  No one in the corporate media thought that ACORN itself should be given space to defend itself.  

What does all this mean? It means that in addition to complaining about journalistic double standards, we need to focus on power.  If Democrats won't take our side in conflicts, than our side will be treated as off the wall.

A key step forward would be to go after the first Democrat who legitimates false or hypocritical Republican attacks on actors like ACORN the next time around.  

Another would be to demand that Dems make an effort to publicly support such groups. How many Democrats in Congress went down the March for America?  How many hill staffers were talking about it?  The answer to those questions is one of the key reasons why such a large march which is such a great story barely made a dent in the media.  And it's also why, on the day of the March, MSNBC had on a tea partier to talk about their small rally but then brought on a journalist to talk about immigration reform.

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.


re: new voters (4.00 / 3)
You prompted me to go back and search for one of John Emerson's diaries -  The Wonk Demographic and the Stupid Voters - where he wrote:

There's good reason to believe that the present Democratic Party is unenthusiastic about bringing in new voters (ACORN!!!) primarily because new voters would make inconvenient demands conflicting with the things Democratic pros need to do to massage their big donors. Furthermore, recruiting voters and getting out the vote is harder work than fundraising, and successful fundraising is what brings in the money to pay the pros.

It was a great diary and it resonates with me still.


[ Parent ]
I'd sure like the Pope and the rest of the (4.00 / 4)
Catholic Church hierarchy to explain to us all once again how it is that women are so entirely unfit deliver the message of God and lead the flocks.

I'm no big Dr. Phil fan, but I'd really relish seeing the (Nazi) Pope as a guest on his show and Phil putting the question to him: "So, that Patriarchal-Misogyny thing - how's that working out for you?"


There you go with that liberal culture of therapy stuff again! n/t (4.00 / 2)


[ Parent ]
Cry For The Moon (4.00 / 1)
The Embrace That Smothers -- Part IV

Follow your common sense
You cannot hide yourself
behind a fairytale forever and ever
Only by revealing the whole truth can we disclose
The soul of this bulwark forever and ever
Forever and ever

Indoctrinated minds so very often
Contain sick thoughts
And commit most of the evil they preach against

Don't try to convince me with messages from God
You accuse us of sins committed by yourselves
It's easy to condemn without looking in the mirror
Behind the scenes opens reality

Eternal silence cries out for justice
Forgiveness is not for sale
Nor is the will to forget

Virginity has been stolen at very young ages
And the extinguisher loses it's immunity
Morbid abuse of power in the garden of eden
Where the apple gets a youthful face

You can't go on hiding yourself
Behind old fashioned fairytales
And keep washing your hands in innocence



God Never Intended YouTube To Be Used Like This, Mark! (0.00 / 0)
I just don't what the world is coming to.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I take offense to the seppuku comparison (4.00 / 1)
In ancient Japan, seppuku was a way of reclaiming your honor after bringing shame upon you (either by doing something bad or by failing miserably).

Our modern liberal establishment has committed more sins and failed more miserably than most can dream of, yet they have absolutely no interest in getting any of their honor back.  Assuming they had any in the first place.

[disclaimer: post is half-snark]


Yeah, I Know (0.00 / 0)
It bothered me, too, that the cultural background clashed with my foreground message.

But sometimes you've just got to go to war with the metaphors you have, and not the metaphors you wished you had.

Anyway, good of you to take note.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Heh, don't worry about it (0.00 / 0)
As I mentioned, my comment was more of a joke than anything else.

[ Parent ]
As A Confirmed Snarkaholic (0.00 / 0)
you will never find me deprecating the truth value of humor.

I dug it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
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