Defending Helen Thomas

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Jun 13, 2010 at 14:00


I'm Jewish, if you can't tell.  And I've seen the video in which she made her so-called "indefensible" remarks.  And I've just got to say it plain: there was no "there" there.  She was being interviewed by a rabbi.  She was friendly and smiling.  She was asked ""Any comments on Israel", and she said, "Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine."  This in itself is ambiguous, of course, since it could refer to all of Palestine previous to the arrival of any modern Jews, or it could refer to occupied Palestine (since the 1967 war).  Either way, though, it's simply a political opinion--one you may disagree with, but nothing even close to the expression of group animus, and American political figures express group animus all the time without being forced to apologize, much less end their careers.

When asked where they should go, she said, they should "go back home to Poland, Germany, America and everywhere else," and here I can certainly understand why some people would very angry.  Doesn't she know what happened to the Jews in Poland and Germany?  But, of course, she didn't say it should happen again.  And while Jews may find it unthinkable to return to Poland and Germany, I can't help thinking about all the African-Americans who live in the South, where their ancestors were also grievously mistreated.  And for those who will say that there was no comparison, they should be reminded that up until the early 1800s it was customary and normal to simply work slaves to death.  Indeed, when the Constitution was adopted with an end to the slave trade in 1808, many believed that this would be the end it.  The slaves in America would eventually all die off, and that would be it.  Of course, things changed, and it didn't work out like that.  And of course not all slaves were grievously mistreated even then,  But the fate African-American slaves was easily horrible enough that no one could blame those who left the South as soon as they could, vowing never to come back.

More than that, however, African-Americans continue to be mistreated throughout the South.  They are far more likely to more severly punished for crimes--or even to be charged in the first place.  And yet they continue to live their in vastly disproportionate numbers, and no one thinks about it much.  Indeed, for many, the very fact that it was a place of historic oppression is all the more reason for them to stay there, and reclaim it as a place of their own.

In short, what I'm saying about Helen Thomas is that she merely said something that made some people angry or upset, and that gave other people with their own agendas a chance to finally get rid of someone who had always bucked the powers that be.  In the land of fake journalism, she was one of the last authentic voices to be heard, and they just couldn't wait for an excuse to get rid of her--particularly one that would make her look bad.

And here's the irony.  Helen Thomas had nothing to apologize for.  I don't agree with her.  But neither do I feel offended.  I understand where her feeling came from.  Anyone who doesn't has to be at least a little bit crazy.  We have to be able to hear such feelings from one another if we're ever going to be able to work through them, as well as working through the facts on the ground that continue generating new feelings as well--feelings that are much, much, much more bitter than those that Helen Thomas expressed.

As an American Jew, I am deeply ashamed that such a remarkable woman was shamed into retirement and exile in my name, that I was used in such a despicable and dishonest manner.  I do not just with to defend Helen Thomas.  I wish to apologize to her.  As an American and as a Jew, I stand for much better than that.

Paul Rosenberg :: Defending Helen Thomas

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The whole episode is infuriating (4.00 / 11)
Infuriating because the Latinos-go-home crowd piled on.

And because the White House, eager to get rid of Thomas and kiss up to AIPAC, piled on.

And because other reporters danced on her grave, including one asshole from CBS who claimed she "asked questions no hard news reporter would ask."

And because this is payback for asking not just tough questions, but tough questions from an antiwar anti-imperialism perspective.

And because people got away with claiming she was invoking the Holocaust.  


I forgot the most obvious... (4.00 / 6)
Infuriating because of the double (anti-Arab) standard by which someone like Schumer can with impunity advocate the collective punishment of 1.5 million people.

[ Parent ]
Can You Imagine If Helen Thomas Had Said Something Like That? (4.00 / 5)
I bet there would have been an ACTUAL lynch mob after her.

It's literally inconceivable that any public figure could ever talk about Jews the way that Schumer and other pols talk about Arabs any time they feel like letting their hair down.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
And since this is Yglesias weekend at OL (4.00 / 3)
I might as well link to an old Big Media Matt post that's making the rounds.

AFTER THE LATEST DEPRESSING news from the Middle East I think we have to start asking just how inhumane it would be for Israel to just expel the Palestinians from the occupied terroritories. The result would probably be out-and-out war with the neighboring Arab states, but Israel could win that.

All forced population transfers are humanitarian disasters, of course, but so is the current situation. It's not like there's not any room in the whole Arab world for all these Palestinian Arabs to go live in, it's just that the other Arab leaders don't want to cooperate.

Okay, so he was young when he wrote that, but if in the post he had called for the expulsion of Israelis, he would be worrying about his future in journalism.

http://yglesias.blogspot.com/2...


[ Parent ]
Horrible, Simply horrible. (0.00 / 0)
But so typically Matt. Freewheelingly spreading outrageous ideas, without ever thinking the consequences through.

Germany- Australia 2:0, btw! Olé, olé olé olé!


[ Parent ]
I'm Sorry But Don't You Mean He WOULDN'T Be Worrying About His Future In Journalism? (4.00 / 2)
In real estate, maybe.  Or selling cubic zirconmium.  But journalism?  Not so much.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
If she had she would have made a more substantive argument (4.00 / 1)
As it was, she babbled about Poland and Germany.  I'm a good-enough-for-Hitler-Jew (paternal grandfather - I just love using that line when the Mitzvah Tank comes rolling around), and her remark about Poland and Germany made me uncomfortable.          

But the larger point is that people who make a questionable remark - not even insidious, but merely questionable - are made to pay by people who are complicit in ethnic cleansing.

Of course, the whole situation is doubly ironic, because it seems more Russian Jews would rather move to Germany than Israel.  So much so, in fact, that Israel has lobbied Germany to restrict Jewish immigration from Russia. This is also a very useful point to bring up around Jewish neocons who say that Jews don't like quotas because they've been used historically to exclude Jews.  


[ Parent ]
Or, to put it otherwise: the collective punishment of 794,000 children, (4.00 / 3)
who constitute 56% of Gaza's population.

[ Parent ]
It's payback for making the others look like the lamers they are. (4.00 / 4)
This should be obvious from the comments by her "collegues", all those spineless creatures who stumbled upon each other in their eagerness to smear Thomas. Not one of them is worthy of even holding her pen, not to speak of taking her seat!

[ Parent ]
Of course, the Latino-go-home crowd... (0.00 / 0)
...are targets for ridicule and candidates for "Idiot Wind" awards, whereas we're supposed to "understand where (Thomas's) feeling came from.  Anyone who doesn't has to be at least a little bit crazy." Targeting Latinos is the only exemption from receiving the HT treatment, which is the real outrage, since surely anyone who advocated that (insert any other ethnicity) should 'go back where they came from' would be found unfit for a seat in the WH press room.

...Adding, that's not to say that the sanctimonious responses from many you mention aren't indeed 'infuriating,' but that and HT deserving an Idiot Wind award are not mutually exclusive.  

Self-refuting Christine O'Donnell is proof monkeys are still evolving into humans


[ Parent ]
But Helen Thomas Isn't In The Position of the Latino-go-home crowd (4.00 / 2)
(1) She's not a member of the dominant culture.
(2) Her feeling came partly from not being allowed an effective voice--the common fate of subordinate minorities--more like the Latinos than the Anglos who hate them.
(3) The Latinos were here first, so they're the ones who are more like the Palestinians, and the Latino-go-home crowd is more like Schumer.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Sorry, but... (0.00 / 0)
I don't see her not being a "member of the dominant culture" as a meaningful exemption, nor do I see someone who's been afforded a front row seat to question presidents and nationwide (worldwide?) column distribution by premier wire services as "not being allowed an effective voice." Finally, if "here first" is going to be scored back by multiple centuries...

Self-refuting Christine O'Donnell is proof monkeys are still evolving into humans

[ Parent ]
Go Ahead And Find Her Bias In Her Professional Work (0.00 / 0)
I'm waiting.

Otherwise, what bearing does "having a front row seat" have on her as an Arab-American?

As for not being a member of the dominant culture--that's got everything to do with everything.  Just check out my writings on social dominance theory.  There's a vast asymmetry between dominant and subordinate groups.

Finally, you're the one who brouhgt in the Latino-bashers.  The fact that Latinos and Palestinians were both first occupants surely has some significance, don't you think?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Your last sentence (0.00 / 0)
is something that really bears examination in light of Arizona's actions of late.  

[ Parent ]
Read the comment again (0.00 / 0)
Having not alleged bias in her professional work I'll pass on your offer/diversion.

Her "having a front row seat" and nationally syndicated column bears on her "having a voice," not on her being an Arab-American.

I look forward to future explications on the exemption of subordinate groups to say stupid things. Clearly that is central to your point.

If you want to go back over multiple centuries, the Jews might have some edge in the first occupants column.

Self-refuting Christine O'Donnell is proof monkeys are still evolving into humans


[ Parent ]
There Are Multiple Confusions Here (0.00 / 0)
far too much to deal with a comment.

But I take it that you haven't read much of what I've written about social dominance theory, structural racism or cultural racism.

Time for a refresher diary.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
People/groups need not... (0.00 / 0)
...be similarly situated or motivated for comparisons to be relevant and valid. Consider an "exploited" employee who contracts the murder of his company owner for retribution vs. a rising monopolist who contracts murder of the same man to enhance his control/position. Motivations and stations are entirely different, yet the effect of the action is identical.

That Thomas and the Latino-go-home crowd don't share identical station/motivation doesn't negate the Idiot Wind quality of what they similarly advocate. Being in a subordinate group does not grant some magical absolution of the expressed stupidity.

Self-refuting Christine O'Donnell is proof monkeys are still evolving into humans


[ Parent ]
Why Do You Lie??? (0.00 / 0)
That Thomas and the Latino-go-home crowd don't share identical station/motivation doesn't negate the Idiot Wind quality of what they similarly advocate.

Helen Thomas made a single comment in private.  A comment whose meaning is unclear--as you can see from reading all the comments here.  A comment that doesn't conform to what she has publicly expressed over the years.  This is not "advocacy" in any meaningful sense, and certainly not comparable to anti-immigrant hysterics.

So why are you lying about her?

You're usually a pretty sensible guy.  Insightful, even. But here you just seem to buy into the anti-Thomas hysteria hook, line and sinker.

I don't get it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Advocate (0.00 / 0)
Advocate - To speak, plead, or argue in favor of. (per American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language.)

Really, Paul? Lying? Hook, line and sinker? Take a deep breath and reconsider whether you should be accusing others of hysteria.

I used the word "advocate." Singular, not plural. A technically correct word: She spoke in favor of. I could have substituted "their similar expressions" or "expressing similar thoughts." I used the word advocate. Maybe it wasn't the best or clearest word. But seriously, "lying?"

Secondly, let's be clear here: As I've expressed in my comments to David, I don't support the vulgarity of responses, nor defend the hypocrisy of the respondents, nor do I think she should've been fired. To read my comments as being caught up "hook, line and sinker" in the "hysteria" is way off base. Seriously, dude, you're more thoughtful than that.

Look, the lady said something stupid. That whole groups of "serious people" reacted hysterically, some hypocritically, doesn't negate that she did, indeed, say something stupid. If, say, Chuck Todd had been similarly caught on camera saying that Latinos should all go back where they came from, he would surely and rightly be an Idiot Wind nominee. And I dare say there wouldn't have been a similar OL post decrying whatever blow-back Todd would've received for making it (and, of course, he wouldn't be fired for it, though I'd bet some here would think he should be).

Finally, some food for thought: Have Jews historically been a dominant or subordinate group? When they act today, how do they view themselves? The first is an easy question; The latter is more difficult and complex.

Self-refuting Christine O'Donnell is proof monkeys are still evolving into humans


[ Parent ]
More And More Ridiculous (0.00 / 0)
No native English speaker would use the world "advocate" to describe an isolated comment like that, just because you can pull that out of a dictionary.

You might as well accuse your auto mechanic of working for mob because he "fixes" your car, same as someone might "fix" a horserace.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
More and more stupidity (0.00 / 0)
...just because you can pull that out of a dictionary.

Where the fuck am I supposed to look for an impartial third party to arbitrate/define the meaning of words? You do agree that words have meanings, correct? And that there are socially accepted reference sources detailing commonly accepted definitions of words, correct? Seriously, WTF kind of argument is this?

The verb definition of "fix" has many different, completely independent meanings; The verb definition of "advocate" has only one meaning in any dictionary you choose. Analogy FAIL.

That the word "fix" means different things in your example doesn't make its proper usage wrong, which is your direct inference as it translates (by the dictionary, incorrectly) to the word "advocate." Logic FAIL.

This whole comment makes you look silly and stupid. You're better than that.

...Adding, it's telling that even after I wrote this...

I could have substituted "their similar expressions" or "expressing similar thoughts." I used the word advocate. Maybe it wasn't the best or clearest word. But seriously, "lying?"

...you still want to focus solely on my alleged "lying," while avoiding every other comment I made.

Self-refuting Christine O'Donnell is proof monkeys are still evolving into humans

[ Parent ]
BTW... (0.00 / 0)
A person can advocate (verb) something without being an advocate (noun). I did not say that Thomas was an advocate (n), nor would someone who advocated (v), or said something once be considered an advocate (n). Perhaps this is the source of your confusion.

Seriously, acrimony was not my intention. However, my comments made in good faith and not out of bounds are being met with open hostility. Anyway, whatever, however you want to play it. I'll roll with it either way...

Self-refuting Christine O'Donnell is proof monkeys are still evolving into humans


[ Parent ]
If we're going to go back over multiple centuries (0.00 / 0)
the Jews do NOT have some edge in the first occupants column.  I think that edge would go to the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites, whom we today call Palestinians.

Educate, Agitate, Organize, Mobilize, Act!


[ Parent ]
Your responding to my comment (4.00 / 1)
by using quotes from Rosenberg (which I might or might not agree with.)

For me, this episode is mostly about double standards. If we were going to clear Congress, the White House Press room, and Sunday show green rooms of people who've said things more unambiguously horrible and offensive than her remarks, then I might be more inclined to get into a nitty-gritty discussion about the nastiness of her remarks, or lack thereof.

I will say this, though. It's far from a perfect analogy: go home Latinos vs. go home Israelis.

Thomas is a Christian Arab who was already an adult (living here) when Israelis removed Arabs from their homes and stole their land. We can assume there's something other than, or in addition to, ethnic animus informing her wish that Israelis get out. She clearly identifies with the victims created by Israel's creation.

For the record, I'm happy to try to understand the feelings of the go-home Latino crowd.  


[ Parent ]
I agree (0.00 / 0)
...And really with your original comment too. My comment was really an addition or offshoot to yours, not necessarily a criticism of it. The vulgar, sanctimonious celebrations are indeed "infuriating." That they are, however, is no vindication of the Idiot Wind from Helen Thomas and I thought that worth saying.  

Self-refuting Christine O'Donnell is proof monkeys are still evolving into humans

[ Parent ]
This is a sentiment (4.00 / 2)
I have heard may times in Lebanon.  Sometimes it is accompanied by a bitter hatred of Israel but sometimes there is a note of irony, since the most brutal persecution of Jews happened in Europe and the Palestinians suffer for it.  The displaced Arabs were harmed in this process and it seems to me that this must be acknowledged if there is ever going to be a resolution to the problem.  AIPAC and the Israeli right-wing don't want a resolution because their ambitions for Israel are not fully realized.  Again, not to excuse it, but I think HT was making an ironic statement.  

It is ironic to me that HT has to step down for her ironic statement about Israelis being displaced, when Palestinians have actually been pushed out of Palestine or ghetto-ized in an almost perfunctory way.


[ Parent ]
"the only exemption from receiving the HT treatment"? (4.00 / 2)
"Nuke Iran!" (WSJ) - no consequences.
"Nuke North Korea!" (Coulter)  - no consequences.
"Expel the Palestinians" (Yglesias) - no consequences
"Stop Gazans from reproducing" (Martin Kramer) - no consequences

Probably only a very small part of the actual offenses. Latinos are "the only exception"? Obviously, not. It's the other way round, every nation, every group of people is fair game for hatespeech, EXCEPT the Israelis.


[ Parent ]
! (4.00 / 1)
And while I don't totally support your conclusion that Helen Thomas had nothing to apologize for - regarding the occasion, she should have taken extra care not to offend people - I agree that the hype about greatly exceeds the small offense.

Some other points I want to add:
- The Rabbi posted was allegedly is the "complete" video on his webiste. Strangely, he doesn't seem to have introduced himself at the start of the interview. And is it him who asks the questions, or his son?
- Just look at the unflattering close up camera view of the 89 year old lady! Obvious evidence that this was INTENDED to become a hit piece and not a fair documentary.
- Despite Thomas' remark about Palestine being ambiguous, aparently NOBODY ever tried to clear up which Palestine she meant, the former British mandate region, or Westbank + Gaza. Why this blaring omission?
- It should be mentioned that since the fall of the wall, about 200,000 Jewish russians voluntarily migrated to Germany, reinforcing the small, overaged Jewish communities here and resulting in a revival of Jewish culture in German cities. Still, regarding the unignorable historic background, it would have been much better if Thomas had bitten her tongue, or at least spoken about Israelis returning to Russia (where actually many settlers, and a large part of the Israeli population came from in the last 20 years).

All in all, it's a shame how this merited old lady, an icon of old school journalism who still dared to speak truth to power, was treated. I'm sad to see her go that way, and hoping she will make her distinctive voice heard again at a not-so-mainstream media, maybe a blog of her own!


Oops, the title. Well, thank you, Paul, for the fair look at the issue! (0.00 / 0)
Dunno how I managed to screw that up, sry.

[ Parent ]
Good and proper take (4.00 / 4)
on the Helen Thomas issue, Paul. The hardest thing sometimes is to defend the right of those who say things one is offended by, to say them. Forcing a courageous journalist into retirement, complete with villification, smears and hounding, is a sad sight, and a poor reflection on those who should be defending freedom of expression, not shutting the door in its face.

It must also be said - just exactly how are arab-americans treated by the press? can one  say anything about the ME while arab? and/or muslim? probably only in the quiet inside of 4 walls.

Whatever helen thinks - she obviously spoke in exasperation. She has apologized. The matter should have been put to rest right there. But her journalist 'friends" - many jewish -  turned on her. With feigned shock. Shock they did not express when the likes of Krauthammer express rancid racist remarks against muslims and/or Arabs on a weekly basis. Shock they failed to express at Schumer's recent remarks about "strangling the Gazans" (see quick hits). So much doesn't shock our erstwhile "journalists". But Helen's one comment does. Indeed.

One thing I do dread and that is that the Israelis may just take her up on the invitation to go to America (forget Poland). Which nearly a Million have already. Which almost every israeli I know wants to do. Problem is - do we really want to import all those "warm-bloodied' (just to be nice) middle eastern tribal-minded minds?

I escaped from israel as soon as I could make it out - on a one-way ticket, with a couple of $'s in my pocket, a student visa secured and ready to sing new songs - which I have done ever since - quite happily too. I live in mortal fear that many may yet follow. way too many. After all, the problem in israel was never that the beaches were not nice enough.

Even so, I excuse and defend helen for having expressed such wish, if just for a second. May few listen, and may Helen live [quite] a while longer and write that book she obviously needs to.


this is the first time (4.00 / 2)
i saw helens comments in their context, before, i heard about them through second hand reports of co-workers etc, if you are accurate i have no problem with her comments and i actually agree with her for the most part.

i abhor bigotry and racism on any level but i also disagree with what israel is doing in the middle east, america is supposed to protect the weak but as usual we as other super powers align with other similar states that can push our agenda at the expense of ethics, morality and of those that have no political voice.

again the obama admin and the dems prove that their integrity runs only skin deep and only when its convenient, they have no use for helen thomas because she was one of the few in the media that held their feet to the political fire, most of america won't realize it but we lost a voice of reason and there is no one right now to replace it, thanks paul for the info.  


This is silly. (0.00 / 0)
If you want to make the point that there is a double standard here, and that people (including Schumer) say far more odious things about Palestinians and Arabs without any challenge, then okay, yes, totally agree.

But that doesn't meant that Thomas' comments weren't odious in themselves. To advocate for the wholesale displacement of a people in any context is about as illiberal as it gets.  


Why? (4.00 / 4)
Why should it be off-limits to question the logic that Palestinians should pay for the sins of Europeans?

Are you afraid that you don't have any good counter-arguments?

If not, then what's the problem?  Move the conversation forward by engaging in it.

My own position is pretty simple, I think: The logic of displacing the Palestinians was indefensible.  But it was also done more than half a century ago, and undoing it now would entail other unjust acts as well.  So we must find a way to go forward, not back.  But that doesn't mean we shouldn't look back to consider how to look forward.

The bottom line that disturbs people about what Helen Thomas said is that she reminds us of the injustice done to the Palestinian people.  But any lasting solution has to be big enough in spirit to encompass and accept the reality of injustices done to all people, to all sides.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
then your view is not HT's view (0.00 / 0)
Your own position, as you express it, is totally reasonable. But it also seems to directly contradict Helen Thomas' position, which is apparently not that "undoing [the displacement of the Palestinians] now would entail other unjust acts as well."

The liberal solution to the injustice that's been done to the Palestinians has to be inclusive rather than exclusive - otherwise it's not a liberal solution. That means, for starters, giving Palestinians democratic sovereignty. (And maybe arguments could be made for either a two-state solution to the problem of sovereignty, or a one-state solution in which a Palestinian majority would be demographically inevitable.)

I, for one, am not disturbed by Helen Thomas calling attention to the injustice done against Palestinians. What disturbs me is the suggestion that the solution to an ethnic/religious/cultural conflict ought to be the removal of a people from their land. Plenty of people are able to call attention to Israel's unjust policies without invoking such dangerously essentialist thinking.


[ Parent ]
But You Don't Know That! (4.00 / 2)
This was very much an off-the-cuff comment, not backed up any sort of history of bias or bigotry that I've ever been made aware of.

In fact, I wouldn't at all be surprised if Thomas would agree with me completely.

Part of what's going on here, btw, is a very common, very deep cognitive error, a variant on what John Hanson was talking about in the video I posted overnight.  You're assuming--unconsciously--that Thomas is this rational actor-type of being, which no human really is.  We think much more in narratives reflecting our situated identities than we do in terms of expressing unchanging (or at least relatively stable) abstract preferences.

Part of the process of creating real change is getting into relationships with others such that there is sufficient trust that new narratives, new situations, new identities can be forged.  Playing "gotcha!" is antithetical to this process, and a very good way for those not interested in change to portray the other side as the source of the problem.

Some people are quite cynical practitioners in this "art".  Many more, however, just innocently fall into this misunderstanding of complex dynamics, resuting in neither side getting what it actually wants.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I don't know (0.00 / 0)
I see an impulse to give her a little too much of the benefit of the doubt here. I mean, maybe she meant something other than what she said. I'd be willing to hear her explanation of that if that is the case. But at the end of the day I think we have to respond to public comments as what they are, rather than what we project onto them, and in this case the comment as it stands - in context, etc. - seemed to be a pretty clear advocation of something I think is just morally wrong (and which you clearly don't want to defend, either).

But like I say below, I don't think it's a great use of energy to focus on whether Helen Thomas' anti-Israeli comments were or were not beyond the pale, when anti-Palestinian views are publicly expressed, by elected officials among others, that are clearly worse than this, and it hardly ever rises to the level of controversy. Offense is the better play here than defense.


[ Parent ]
Why are you lying about it? (4.00 / 2)
Where did Thomas call for "the removal of people from their land"? Who did she say should "remove" them? She said to tell them to get out of Palestine. That's not a call for "removal", which is a term that exploits the memory of the worst kind of crimes that history records. The reality is that Israel has been a failed experiment so far. It is unable to exist without massive aid from the US and elsewhere. It cannot muster the political will to accept its legal boundaries and seek a just and workable path to becoming viable.

I think the forbidden idea that Thomas is broaching is that at some point we are going to have to consider the possibility that the Zionist dream has failed and is no longer supportable. The burden is on Israel to demonstrate that it can survive as a self-sufficient state. If not, it may be time for the experiment to end.

A hard and terrible opinion, but not bigotry or any of the other slurs pronounced by those who can't stand for anyone to move beyond sentimental drivel about "God gave this land to me" and speak of more realistic possibilities.


[ Parent ]
This Really Gets To The Nub Of It (4.00 / 1)
I think the forbidden idea that Thomas is broaching is that at some point we are going to have to consider the possibility that the Zionist dream has failed and is no longer supportable.

In fact, the Zionist dream only keeps itself alive by constantly mutating into something more and more ugly and less and less specifically Jewish.

It recalls the infamous Vietnam War communique, "In order to save the village, it was necessary to destroy it."


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
She probably wasn't talking about that past immigration, (4.00 / 3)
which as you say would entail further unjustness to try to undo now.

As former Senator James Abourezk, first Arab American in the Senate, points out, she wasn't talking about undoing that half-century-ago immigration - she was talking about the ongoing immigration from Europe and the US, while Palestinians languish with no rights to return to what was their own land, and about the settlements in the Occupied Territories rather than Israel proper:

GOODMAN: Do you think that her comments, for which she apologized, were problematic?

JAMES ABOUREZK: No, I don't, to be very honest with you. If you understand what Helen was trying to say, is that there are Palestinians sitting in refugee camps all over the Middle East who cannot get back into Israel yet. Ashkenazi Jews from all over Europe are able to come freely, and from America, too, and I think that's what she was referring to...

Now, that's an offhanded remark. I mean, the guy caught her unawares. She probably hadn't thought that much more about it. But I understand what she really meant: they're taking the place of Palestinians who cannot return to Palestine, their home. That's basically what she was trying to say.



[ Parent ]
What if an Indians were to suggest (4.00 / 1)
that White Americans packed up and went back to Europe?

I'm not saying there wasn't anti-Semitism in her comments -- how could I know?-- I'm saying the that imperial, oppressive nature of Israel's creation combined with linking of Jewishness to an oppressive, powerful state softens or at least confuses the "odiousness" of her remarks.

Over at Daily Kos, newly minted front pager Laurence Lewis, Kos's the site's great liberal hope, blithely compares her comments to those of Al Campanis.

Ain't. That. Simple.  


[ Parent ]
Howard Kossel, Perhaps (0.00 / 0)
who was the greatest establishment supporter of Muhammad Ali back when even many blacks were shying away.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Among the Indian Rights people I've met (0.00 / 0)
that's a comment sentiment. And just about as likely to happen. Paul's right, the only way is forward, not back, but it is to be expected that the oppressed are going to be bitter at times.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Reminds Me Of That Guy Punking The Tebaggers Last Year (0.00 / 0)
with his rants against the crime-spreading Euro-Americans!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
If we keep going that way (0.00 / 0)
we'll all end up in north Africa.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Excuse me pls, Israeli settlers DO displace Palestinians! (4.00 / 3)
They take away their lands, they uproot their olive trees, they divide the country with Israeli-only roads, checkpoints and security fences, seriously damaging their economy and their everyday life. Of course this is a policy designed to displace Palestinians and corral them together in a continuisly shrinking part of the land! And to say that Israelis should move the hell out of Palestine (the Westbank and Gaza) is simply a protest against the displacement of Palestinians.

[ Parent ]
not what she was talking about (0.00 / 0)
And to say that Israelis should move the hell out of Palestine (the Westbank and Gaza) is simply a protest against the displacement of Palestinians.

It is obvious that she didn't just mean the Occupied Territories when she said "Palestine." Otherwise she would've said they need to go back to Israel, not Poland and Germany and America.


[ Parent ]
It is NOT obvious! Like Paul said, it's ambigous. (0.00 / 0)
Nobody knows for sure, nobody cared to get a clarificiation from Thomas. And many of the settlers did make aliyah to Israel, most of them from Russia.

[ Parent ]
it is not ambiguous (0.00 / 0)
The guy asks her, any comments on Israel? She says, tell them to get the hell out of Palestine... The guy tries to clarify: "So you think the Jews should go back to Poland and to Germany." She says, nodding, "-and America and everywhere else." The context clearly indicates that it is the presence of "Israel" and "the Jews" in the Middle East that is at issue.

If she just meant her comment to refer to the settlers in the Occupied territory, she could have clarified that in her apology. But all she said was:


"I deeply regret my comments I made last week regarding the Israelis and the Palestinians," Thomas said in a statement. "They do not reflect my heartfelt belief that peace will come to the Middle East only when all parties recognize the need for mutual respect and tolerance. May that day come soon."

Look, I don't really want to get too deep into what Helen Thomas really meant/said. That's why I think defending her is the wrong tactic. What we should really be talking about is why Thomas gets the axe for these comments, but Schumer can aver the morally unconscionable view that collective punishment of the people of Gaza (most of whom are children) is justified, without creating so much as a stir. (Notice how I'm channeling my inner Rosenberg here? The best defense is a good offense. :) )


[ Parent ]
Why Should We Only Talk About Your Approved Topic? (4.00 / 3)
You really need to reflect on your insistence on agenda-setting, and consider the possibility that (relatively mild) outbursts such as Thomas's may partly reflect a whole lifetime lived in the context of others such as you setting the agenda for her in countless different situations.

Condemning the double standard is relatively easy.  Not for many on other blogs who shall remain nameless just now, but certainly for the vast majority here at Open Left.  But there are harder issues here as well, and if we don't tackle them here, then where will they be tackled?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
All right, what are the harder issues? (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
The Harder Issues Are Just What I Was Talking About (0.00 / 0)
"defending the indefensible" and such.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
You mix the interviewer's part with ther actual statments. Not fair. (4.00 / 1)
And it still doesn't make it clear which Jews Thomas emant in her answer. Sry, but I stay with my view that you're over interpreting this, and that this is not clear. And, actually, if you look at comments at the NYT and elsewehere, you see that lots of people understood this exchange as being about the Westbank.

As for her apology, yes, it's very short. And it doesn't clear things up. Nothing to conclude from this.

And, of course, the hypocrisy when it comes to statements about Israel, opposed to equally disturbing quotes about other people, is an important point. But I still think that the media immediately condemned Thomas remarks, without being sure what exactly she meant, is another important issue.


[ Parent ]
your psychic powers intrigue me (4.00 / 1)
tell me more things that were never explicitly stated

[ Parent ]
But That's NOT Obvious At All (4.00 / 4)
It's a very fragmentary interview, there's no sustained attempt to get her to clarify.  It's much more the quality of a momentary expression of emotion, and given that it was said to a rabbi with a smile on her face--not a sneer, but a genuine smile--I would read it as something of a confidence, an expression of trust.

In such situations, a person may say something out loud that's more like a first draft, a half-formed thought that doesn't accurately reflect even what they might think in the moment.  Whenever I get someone in an interview saying something like that, I try to get them to repeat it, or confirm it in similar terms, just to make sure it's something they stand by.  But, then, I'm not a gotcha! journalist.  I try to be a "first draft of history" journalist.

So, it would be different if the interviewer had asked, "What do you mean?"  Don't you mean they should go back to the pre-1967 borders?  Then we would have known.  But as it is?  We really don't.  And given that she's been around forever, and has no such history (unlike many folks on the anti-Palestinian side), there's additional background reasons to take this quite differently than you seem intent on doing.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
But the wholesale displacement of a people (4.00 / 4)
is exactly what did happen. It's what Thomas was criticizing. But this is a forbidden conversation on America and so she had to go.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
You Make It Sound So Simple! (4.00 / 1)
because it is.

and because you know it is.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
imputing meaning (4.00 / 2)
When I saw the full transcript, I came to the conclusion that whatever Helen said was insufficiently precise to nearly have any meaning at all.  Certainly her words could have been better chosen; it was not well thought out ... although it doesn't seem the circumstances were conducive to a well thought out statement.  Perhaps, it could be said that Helen has been around the block enough to recognize that some opportunities for speech can, and should be, declined.  

But, if I've learned nothing in the past decade it's that people almost never heroes.  They can be heroic in certain circumstances, and they will display their clay feet in others.  So, Helen Thomas has clay feet.

I will miss her voice terribly.  I hope she has a marvelous retirement.  She deserved much better from that pack of vultures she called colleagues.  When offered the opportunity to dis them, I don't believe she ever did, even though she was offered many opportunities to do so.    


WOW! A Voice of Reason In The Mob Scene (4.00 / 1)
"Many heads, no brains," was Benjamin Franklin's description of a mob.

I don't necessarily agree with Paul, certainly not that he should be ashamed in any way of being a Jew, but I am awed by the calm in the storm of passion.

I will miss the dissident voice of Helen Thomas, too.  That is despite often thinking she could not be more wrong.

Our tasteless mayonnaise dialogue desperately needs flavoring.

Thanks again, Paul.

Best,  Terry


Me too, too (0.00 / 0)
I see some people give Helen Thomas a pass because they assume she is 89 and got mixed up.  I think that does a disservice to her intellect.  It's not like she suddenly lost it, though in any case it would have been considerate to clarify some vague comments.

Nitpick:  "...African-Americans continue to be mistreated throughout the South." Should read "...throughout the States."  Just go to Detroit and ask around.


[ Parent ]
Clarification (4.00 / 2)
Of course I know that African-Americans are mistreated outside the South as well.  I am a reporter, after all!

But the South is worse (just check the death penalty stats), and therefore roughly analogous to the Jews long experience of European anti-semitism, which was persistently worse than what they experienced in Muslim lands.  And it's that analogy that I was highlighting.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I am a reporter.. (0.00 / 0)

And a good one Paul.  I love your stuff, even before Open Left.

[ Parent ]
Thank you Paul. (4.00 / 1)
I find myself disagreeing with most of what you say these days, but am grateful that you offered the only rational response to Thomas's "offense" that I've seen anywhere. She dared recall the injustice of Israel's founding and the aggressive expansionism that seems to be its only solution to securing its existence. There are many counter-arguments to her view, but the hysterical knee-jerk "outrage" is more sickening than anything she said.

Her remarks could have been the seed for rational discussion of some deep issues that have imperiled world peace for many decades. Instead all we get from every side is sentimental marketing of the Holocaust, as if that memory is a sufficient answer to everything. Just once I'd like to know what the defenders of Israel have to propose for its long-term survival, other than perpetual land-grabbing on America's dime?


Just So (4.00 / 1)
Her remarks could have been the seed for rational discussion of some deep issues that have imperiled world peace for many decades.

It's precisely because such deep issues could have been rationally discussed that she had to be gotten rid of so swiftly and finally.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I think you're wrong (0.00 / 0)
What Helen Thomas said was idiotic.  I can of course understand resenting the creation of Israel where it is today (in my opinion, it should have been carved out of the lands of the people who perpetrated antisemitism for hundreds of years and had the most power- europeans).  I can understand resenting the colonialism Israel and its allies are engaged in too.  I can understand the vehement critique.

But to boil it down to what she said the way she said it does no one any good - not Helen Thomas, not the Palestinian rights movement, and not anyone else.  It is TOTALLY legitimate to believe that the state of Israel should not exist.  It is NOT legitimate to believe that what replaces it should have no place for the descendants of European Jewish people who came there.  As with any minority group in any place.

Once you go where Helen Thomas went, the only difference between you and those you are criticizing is really a difference in power, not a difference in ethics or morality let alone humanism.  So, yeah, the disempowered and the people who ally themselves with the disempowered often speak out of a context of greater moral sensibilities -  but that's because of what they say, what they feel, what they believe - not by virtue of the disempowerment itself.  It might be more understandable why people in positions of disempowerment are driven to anger than, say, a$$hlles like Schumer or Obama or McCain who can sit around and sing about or advocate for people getting killed or 'contained' or whatever...but it doesn't make it right.

my two cents.  and in this context.  if i had to deal with mainstream "£$£$ in the u.s. (forget about schumer...just basic liberals who care about the suffering in gaza but don't care that it is israeli state violence tied to all kinds of thigns that's creating it), then i might defend helen thomas too.  and i might understand better why she expressed what she expressed in the ways that she did.


But, This Just Isn't A True Picture of Helen Thomas: (0.00 / 0)
It is TOTALLY legitimate to believe that the state of Israel should not exist.  It is NOT legitimate to believe that what replaces it should have no place for the descendants of European Jewish people who came there.

That's simply not what she believes.  She certainly said something in the moment that could be interpreted that way, but the interviewer was either not skilled enough, or not interested in finding out by asking the right follow-up questions.  Not a great surprise, since far too many professionals fail to do this on a regular basis.  But the end result is that we really don't know what she was expressing in the moment with a high degree of certainty, and so there's a strong tendency to fill in the blanks with suppositions.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
That's fair (0.00 / 0)
However, I was not commenting on what she believes - I was commenting on the way in which it was presented in the context that I saw it in (which was the Daily Show, which is going to show some bias on this to some extent).  

So from my vantage point, I think you're correct to say it's not JUST Helen Thomas's responsibility and leaping to conclusions is not fair, particularly about a person's belief or character in a time and place in which anyone who says anything negative about Israel is still subject to an infinitely greater level of scrutiny than someone calling attention to negative actions by, say, the Government of Sri Lanka or the Government of Turkey.

However, if upon seeing what I saw, what she said was in line with what I have been presented with - that she believes that Israelis should 'go back', then she has taken it a step too far in terms of what she has said and would make me angry.  Not because I believe the state of Israel has the right to exist, end of story, but because it is far more detrimental for someone to thoughtlessly say something in the moment particualrly given the context of how it would be perceived.

Granted, I am in England and I've perhaps acquired an overly critical stance towards the idea of blurting out what first comes to mind (particularly from a reporter).  However, I have also learned that the unfairness of the world adds an additional unfairness to those of us who would like to speak the truth - which is that we must always be careful, measured, etc. - because we have to deal wtih the bull$hit of the actual situation we deal wtih and then the bull$hit of how best to approach it.  Thoughtfulness in other words.

Dont' get me wrong - I'm not exempting myself from this - in fact it's actually because I have done exactly what Thomas is accused of doing in terms of blurting something out you believe but which isn't in conformity with established opinion and I have seen how counterproductive it can be.

With all that said, I completely agree with you that the overall context needs to be looked at in order to assess waht responsibility Helen Thomas bears, the interviewer, the programme, the Daily Show, the rest of the media, Chuck Schumer, George Bush, and many others who have an impact in shaping the way in which this incident is seen.  Narrowly speaking, I would need to see the whole video and find out a little bit abuot it's making in order to understand.  As a heuristic, I might go with my impression that the level of scrutiny she's been subjected to has been cynical at bset and offensive and discriminatory (against Palestinian rights) at worst; her comments were misrepresented on the basis of ill chosen words at best and vile at worst.


[ Parent ]
Just To Make It Simpler (0.00 / 0)
Compare what she said with the vitriol now being directed at the Free Gaza Flotilla participants, now being characterized as "terrorists". This is intentional, sustained, organized and coordinate demonization.  And it goes all the way up to members of Congress--"liberal" Democrats, even!

Put that side-by-side with what Helen Thomas said, and there's simply no comparison.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
of course there's no comparison (0.00 / 0)
the pro-israel and pro-israeli chauvinism arguments are beyond the pale.  but we have to ask ourselves why we object to them - on what grounds.

do we object to them on the basis of humanism, socialism, social democracy, or some other universal basis in which people on the grounds of ethnicity ought to be treated equally and decently?  Or do we object to them because they're on the other other side?

This is not because both sides are equally powerful or because context doesn't matter - it is exactly because both sides are not equally powerful and context does matter. it's not fair - at all.  Trust me I know.  It's about getting by and not making things worse for the people you're nominally trying to help by being thoughtful about how you go abotu things.  And yes, in that context, there is even a time for thoughtlessness and just saying what needs to be said - but you're placing yourself at greater risk and you're placing the people whom you nominally support or actually support in a dangerous position by continuing the back and forth rather than just cutting through it and calling it out for what it is - bullshit.  Israel has NO right to keep millions of people locked in what is basically a prison, deprive them of materials to reconstruct their lives after Israel destroyed their buildings, to undermine democratic elections, to pretend that it had no role in instigating conflict that LED to islamism, and to pretend that it has no outside support when the biggest military power in the world is on its side.  It has no right to oppose a million UN resolutions and the opinions of essentially the entire world.  And it doesn't have the right to try to make this 'nuanced' when it's not or engage in a propaganda war by spreading false pictures around or just outright lying.

Think of it this way - how much more of a distraction has Helen Thomas become and how much fodder have these comments provided for israeli chauvinists who already allege that these kinds of sentiments are widespread among anyone who thinks that people in palestine (and everywhere else!) deserve the right to be treated like people?  It's like the work of the gaza flotilla activists was partially undone by this incident.  If she wanted to say something about Israel, why didn't she say 'It's Obama's fault.'  or 'Israel is a criminal state.' or 'Israel should withdraw its embassy' or 'Israel and Palstine should be one state where everyone is treated equally?'  or even 'Israel should not exist, and the state that replaces it should treat everyone fairly.'  None of those arguable but reasonable things were said.

But I still concede your point that I, at least, don't know who is most responsible for this, from my vantage point, for this incident.  Is it the daily show?  Is it the people who edited the video?  Is it the people who made the video?  Is it the interviewer?  Or is it the interviewee? Those things are always relevant considerations in light of the very very good points you make about the underlying nature of the problem - Helen Thomas incident is a minor blip as are the kllings of international solidarity activists compared to what happens and is happening to Palestinians (and millions and hundreds of millions of others) on a daily basis because of the way that the world is structured politically.


[ Parent ]
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