Obama, man of anti-principle, strikes again--gives assist to mosque-haters and al Qaeda

by: Paul Rosenberg

Mon Aug 16, 2010 at 09:00


For a millisecond, it appeared that President Obama was making a principled defense of religious tolerance and freedom: (via digby)

Let me be clear: as a citizen, and as President, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country. That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances," Obama said.

"This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable."

But then (again via digby), not so much:

Speaking to reporters today, President Obama drew a sharp line under his comments last night, insisting that his defense of the right to build a mosque does not mean he supports the project.

"I was not commenting and I will not comment on the wisdom of making the decision to put a mosque there. I was commenting very specifically on the right people have that dates back to our founding," he said.

Obama's new stance is logically consistent with his words last night, if a bit less "clarion," as Mike Bloomberg called the first remarks. And there are certainly two possible stances here: Bloomberg's, that the Cordoba project itself represents the best of America; and Obama's, that the freedom of religion is an important American value.

Obama's new remarks, literally speaking, re-open the question of which side he's on. Most of the mosque's foes recognize the legal right to build, and have asked the builders to reconsider.

Osama bin Laden has just got to be tickled pink.  For a moment there, he was probably worried.  It almost sounded like Obama was going to turn a corner and start rebuilding trust in the Islamic Middle East--trust that had dramatically eroded in the past year:

But now haters everywhere can breath a sigh of relief.  The great champion of tolerance is cutting them all the slack they could possibly wish for.  He's not going to wage any sort of grand campaign on behalf of mutual respect and tolerance, so violent extremists on all sides--and their supporters--will be free to run amok and destroy any chance of peace breaking out.

You see, the folks behind Cordoba House are precisely the sort of Moslems that al Qaeda wants to destroy (Chris Martinez via digby):

[T]he Cordoba House is deliberately, expressly, and unequivocally intended to stand for the diametric opposite of what the 9/11 attackers believed. It would stand for inclusion, reconciliation, and understanding across faiths and cultures. In fact, in many ways, the Muslim founders of the Cordoba House (and its imam) are the sorts of Muslims that bin Laden and his adherents hate most. They are cosmopolitan and modern. The Cordoba House itself will contain many earthly luxuries and pleasures. Its founders (and location) actively embrace multicultural, multi-sectarian, quintessentially modern New York City, and many of its proponents have happily lived in Southern Manhattan for decades.

The Cordoba House, in other words, is not only separate and distinct from the identity and ideology of al Qaeda and the 9/11 terrorists, it is a direct repudiation ("refudiation," for Sarah Palin) of them.

Of course it goes without saying that every war we fight--in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Yemen, in Ethiopa, in The Sudan, wherever--will only make things worse, particularly when we make deals with strongmen (or wannabes) and spurn those--like the backers of Cordoba House--who have a far, far better understanding of what makes America great than we do ourselves.

So, way to go, anti-principle man! You're doing a much better job of fighting George Bush's self-destructive wars than Bush himself could ever have done.

Paul Rosenberg :: Obama, man of anti-principle, strikes again--gives assist to mosque-haters and al Qaeda

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He shouldn't be on any side (4.00 / 5)
He should say simply that the rules should be applied equally, and if the Mosque Builders complied with the law, then they should be able to build the Mosque.

That is consistent with the idea behind Freedom of Religion.  Saying that he supports building the Mosque there is no different than saying he supports the building of any religious building in specific location.   It's wrong.

Obama has said the right thing, and the only thing the President should say.  

You couldn't be more wrong.


He should be on the side of America (4.00 / 5)
and American values. The Cordoba House is a symbol of those values at their finest.

Tell me please, if you can, since Obama opened up the question of "the wisdom" of building on that location, what is the case AGAINST it? He seems to think there must be one, or he wouldn't have put it that way.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
He ALWAYS Assumes That Conservatives Have A Valid Point (4.00 / 5)
That's why I'm worried with all this talk of reprealing the 14th Amendment.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I question the widom of Cordoba House (0.00 / 0)
I question whether it has a chance of accomplishing its stated purpose or if it will turn out to be a wasted effort.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
Of course you do. (0.00 / 0)


Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
WTF does "question the wisdom" mean? (4.00 / 1)
Would these terms be applied to a church or a synagogue? WTF does "stated purpose" mean? Its purpose is the same as the church down the street: to make money for the clergymen and provide more opiate. I smell a little bigotry on your part.

[ Parent ]
It's stated purpose (0.00 / 0)
Is to make some sort of point about interfaith relations and peace and somesuch.  It strikes me as the sort of New Age-y, kumbaya-ish claptrap fails to accomplish anything.  I question the wisdom of anyone who thinks that such symbolic gestures are awesome.  

If you want to talk bigotry, your words suggest that you view all religion as a scam.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
Nonsense. The center was planned there because of geographical (4.00 / 2)
considerations--it provides a place of worship for the locals, who have to travel farther uptown, and that same building has hosted Jewish events in the past. You question "the wisdom of anyone who thinks that such symbolic gestures are awesome," then you go home and open your bible. Hmm... there are other things to "question," you know?

[ Parent ]
Geography was important (0.00 / 0)
Not because it was convenient to worshipers, but because the building was damaged by part of a plane that hit the WTC.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
That's What The Bigots Say (4.00 / 2)
why are we hearing their line from you?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Because it's true? (0.00 / 0)
From The New York Times:
The location was precisely a key selling point for the group of Muslims who bought the building in July. A presence so close to the World Trade Center, "where a piece of the wreckage fell," said Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the cleric leading the project, "sends the opposite statement to what happened on 9/11."

I think there is no question that this project was intended primarily as a theological and political symbolic gesture.  I am skeptical to the notion that it will change anyone's minds.

On the other hand, I don't mind if it gets built because sometimes I just like seeing people cry.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
You are right. The mosque "was intended primarily (4.00 / 1)
as a theological and political[ly] symbolic gesture." Symbolic and theological gestures" are not what religion should be about. We should cast doubt on the mosque for this reason. How dare a religious group make a theological gesture, especially one that is not Christian!

[ Parent ]
This Project Has Been Planned For 11 Years (4.00 / 3)
The planning began in 1999.  You're picking up right in the midst of the tail end and ignoring the vast majority of what it's been all about.

Did Abdul Rauf adroitly stand the bigots' logic on its head?  Yes, he did.  But was that actually what this was all about?  Back in 1999?

Get serious!

It was about cultural assimilation in the patchwork paradigm vs. the melting pot paradigm:  an immigrant group (ethnic, religious, whatever) matures to the point where it expands outward from simply serving their own intimate spiritual, communal and religious needs to where they contribute their own unique form of service to the broader community.  It was a communal coming-of-age gesture that was primarily civic and cultural in nature, not religious (it's a cultural center with a mosque as part of the complex).

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I don't think that all religion is a scam. I think religions (4.00 / 1)
provide stories to make people feel better, and many providers are true believers and are not in it to make money. It is because I am an atheist that I defend the mosque. I don't see that much difference between the religions of the book--Christianity, Judaism, Islam--they all have good moments in their texts, and evil moments, but in my mind there is very little difference between them. I admire some groups within these religions and despise others. I think most of those who object to the mosque are Christian or Jewish. 'My god is real and you are worshipping an idol"--something like that.

[ Parent ]
oh, the horror (4.00 / 2)
In a world where a few are able to stoke religiously-influenced conflict, to even appeal to interfaith comity and peace is beyond the pale, New Age-y claptrap that fails to accomplish anything, certainly less than letting the right perpetuate their hate mongering without a strong and firm response, rhetorical and otherwise. Yes, that is surely best way to accomplish a lot that is good.

Did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts? Hot ashes for trees? Hot air for a cool breeze? And cold comfort for change?

[ Parent ]
This is America (4.00 / 2)
Everyone - every group - has the right to fail at their stated purpose as long as they don't infringe on others rights, or break the law, while doing so.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Its not (0.00 / 0)
for the President to say whether it is a good idea or a bad idea.

That is thed REAL American value.

Let us try this again.

We have seperation of church and state.

The state shouldn't be an advocate one way or another.


[ Parent ]
If the state refuses to stick up for (4.00 / 2)
those whose rights are threatened, then they have no rights. It's not that complicated.


Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
It did (0.00 / 0)
the rules were followed fairly.

The State did stick up for the rights of the minority.


[ Parent ]
Well, It SORTA Did (4.00 / 3)
What?  You never heard of "drip... drip... drip"???

Bloomberg--bastard though he may be--drew a bright line.

Obama drew a bright line.

Then he drew another one, a little bit brighter, to diminish the first one.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
This isn't a civics lesson (4.00 / 3)
It's a political and cultural battle with profound social and political implications worldwide.  Too bad this President does not know how to use contentious politics to his (and our) advantage.  

[ Parent ]
Do you really believe that the Pres would be "advocat[ing]" (4.00 / 2)
Islam? Is this what Bloomberg did? You think they are closet Muslims?

What Obama has been advocating during his presidency and his candidacy is his silly, soppy, brand of Christianity. Preachers everywhere, and a fake evangelical pulpit accent at key moments in his speeches--laughable, really.


[ Parent ]
Rick Fucking Warren at the Inauguration (4.00 / 5)
Sweet Jesus.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
So it's actually your position (4.00 / 2)
that with his speech supporting the mosque (hailed by progressives everywhere) Bloomberg violated the 1st Amendment?



[ Parent ]
Well (0.00 / 0)
let's see. James Madison once apologized for mentioning God in a speech to troops because he didn't think he should have mentioned religion.

So the answer is yes.

Another example of why I don't know what "Progressive" means.  Are "Progressives" saying the President should SUPPORT the construction of the Mosque as opposed, to say, a Catholic Church?  


[ Parent ]
Progressive (4.00 / 3)
means "liberty and justice for all." That includes Muslims, and anyone else who is or may be a target for discrimination.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
So (0.00 / 0)
you believe the goverment should encourage the building of the Mosque?

Another reason why I am not a Progressive.

It isn't the Goverment's role to decide that.  It should only make sure the rules are applied equally.



[ Parent ]
The people behind the Cordoba House (4.00 / 5)
are in full compliance with the laws and have jumped every hurdle required of them. If anyone gives them shit, hell yeah the government needs to have their backs.

It took federal troops to integrate the public schools, remember? And for the exact same reason. Guess we can see now how Obama would've played that one!

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
I think (4.00 / 1)
troops should be used to support the building of the Mosque if someone tries to obstruct it.  Which means enforcing the law.

As was done in the integration of the schools.


[ Parent ]
One is not necessarily breaking a law by speaking out against a mosque (0.00 / 0)
Sure, Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich deserve multiple punches to the face, but when it comes down to it, they have a Constitutionally-protected freedom to speak out in opposition to the mosque.  Doing so doesn't violate a Muslim's freedom of religion.  What are you asking for, Obama to order federal troops to stuff socks down the throats of the Knucklehead of the North and the Pumpkinhead of the South?  As long as it's just words, there's no reason for government to protect the people behind Cordoba House from any public pressure.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
Inciting violence is another story. (4.00 / 4)
And that's exactly what they are doing.

On the radio (not even hate radio, just regular top-40) I heard the dj's saying "freedom of religion is fine, but if they build a mosque there something will happen and it will all be the fault of the Muslims for putting it there."

The Right knows exactly what they are doing, and why. Obama either doesn't get it, or doesn't care.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Precisely! (4.00 / 2)
This is a bigot's crusade, and violence is always part of the mix in their worldview.

They are not just liberals with a different set of "tastes" as our economist friends would have it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Even that speech is protected (0.00 / 0)
In 1969, the Warren Court unanimously decided Brandenburg v Ohio in establishing the "imminent lawless action" test for whether speech can be prohibited.  In the case, a KKK leader was convicted of advocating violence because he spoke of revenge against blacks and Jews at a Klan rally.  The SCOTUS overturned his conviction, holding that abstract advocacy of violence was permissible.  So, speech that may incite violence or other illegal actions at some indefinite time in the future is protected under the Constitution.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
Of course it's protected! (4.00 / 3)
No one's saying it isn't.

The question is, why is the President of the United States supporting and encouraging it?!?

Is it cowardice, or stupidity?

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Besides, (4.00 / 3)
who exactly is the target audience for a statement like "I question the wisdom of building a mosque on the site?"

Who is he trying to suck up to, and is it really a good idea?

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
It Seems That You're Saying You're Not A Progressive Because (4.00 / 2)
it's only right to defend principles, not people.

Did I get that right?

Because where I come from, we call that a "disconnect".

See Caroline Products.  Footnote 4.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The principle (4.00 / 1)
is about people.

[ Parent ]
That's Just My Point (4.00 / 3)
This is not a classroom exercise, but that's exactly how Obama's trying to play it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Encourage the building? (4.00 / 3)
No, defend it as it comes under attack because of bigotry.


[ Parent ]
No (4.00 / 5)
The President should support Americans, especially those that are socially vulnerable and under politico-religious attack.

Explain your precise fear in terms of the establishment clause if the President were to say:

"These Americans, New Yorkers who wish to build a faith and community center to promote interfaith dialogue and healthy living do not deserve to be targeted by hate mongers seeking political gain. Muslim Americans are first and foremost Americans. Many died on 9-11. They have every legal right to build their house of worship, but even more all Americans should support their efforts as reflecting some of the best in American values. I support them and not those who would trade in hate."

Is your argument: 'next stop, theocracy'. Obviously not, so exactly what is the fear?

And I think it is clearly better politics than his current course, but this argument and my question are above or beside narrow political questions. Being politically smarter given the circumstances is just gravy.

Did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts? Hot ashes for trees? Hot air for a cool breeze? And cold comfort for change?


[ Parent ]
Ah, yes, those progressives, with their (4.00 / 4)
"confusing" views.

Believe me, I -- unlike Obama, and a lot of other Dems -- think it'd be be great if pols erred on the side of not endorsing religion. Ever. (Speaking of, I'd be interested in seeing all your comments and posts blasting Obama for all his God-talk.) If Obama tried to defend his non-position position on 1st Amendment grounds, people would be amused by the hypocrisy.

The point here is that the relevant authorities have gone through the proper channels in trying to build a mosque, and at that point, it should not be blocked because of religious bigotry or "sympathy" for victims of 9-11. Defending the right -- not a general right but the right of this specific mosque to be built -- becomes a matter not just of the 1st Amendment but more general values of pluralism, tolerance, etc.

And it certainly doesn't violate the 1st Amendment to point out that form of Islam should be the ally of the United States small-l liberalism, and that to give in to bigots would be a huge blow in our battle against AQ.

As for your question, the choice here is not between a mosque and a church. The choice here is between religious tolerance and religious bigotry. Which side is Obama on? Neither, as usual.



[ Parent ]
False dichotomy (0.00 / 0)
The choice is not mosque or church.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Of course it was. (4.00 / 3)
It's technically true, as Darren Hutchinson points out, that Obama isn't changing what he said, as his speech last night was devoted to a defense of "the right" of the mosque to be built, and it said nothing about whether it should be built near Ground Zero.  But clearly, the tone and the emphasis of his speech -- and the absence of the fine distinctions he's drawing today -- made it obvious that it would be interpreted as siding with the mosque proponents and against those opposing the mosque, and that's exactly how it was interpreted by virtually everyone.

But by insisting now that he was merely commenting on the technical "rights" of the project developers -- as a way of responding to Republican criticism that he was advocating for the project itself -- he has diminished his remarks from a courageous and inspiring act into a non sequitur, somewhat of an irrelevancy.  After all, the "right" of the mosque isn't really in question and didn't need a defense.

http://www.salon.com/news/opin...


[ Parent ]
The technical 'rights' are, he claims, (4.00 / 1)
'what our country is about.' That's maybe not quite so narrow as portrayed. This is the walkback:

"I was commenting very specifically on the right people have that dates back to our founding. That's what our country is about and I think it's very important, as difficult as some of these issues are, that we stay focused on who we are as a people and what our values are all about."

Now, slam him for saying these issues are 'difficult,' I guess. Because that's bullshit in the larger sense--though it's completely true in the 'bizarre right-wing fetishistic media' sense.

But the point is that it doesn't matter if the president, or you, or I, support building a community center two blocks from Ground Zero or a mosque directly on top of it. We're Americans. We have these rights. The support or opposition of the president is not what this country is about. The rights are. If someone is opposing the right to build a community center there (and saying that the 'right' of the 'mosque' "isn't in question" is idiotic; of course it's in question) they are opposing 'what this country is about.'

But the real point is the hair trigger. WTF. Obama's utterly shitty on any number of real issues. This is just the media chasing a new shiny ball.


[ Parent ]
Except his failure to support it (4.00 / 4)
DOES matter. Rights mean nothing without people to stand up for them, to stand up AGAINST those who would deny them to other people. This "both sides have a point" bullshit is dangerous.


Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
He -did- stand up for the rights. (4.00 / 1)
He stood against those who would deny those rights. That's the whole point. He doesn't have to stand up for that particular community center, because that particular community center isn't the issue. If the guy in charge was a shithead instead of being a Bush-appointed moderate, the rights still exist. They are just as strong.


[ Parent ]
That particular center is the issue! (4.00 / 1)
That's why the Right is making a big stink about it?!?

I'm confused now, are you telling me Obama isn't morally adrift he's just not very bright? That he honestly just does not understand "what all the fuss is about?"

Either way it's not a huge comfort.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
No, it's not the issue, any more (4.00 / 2)
than Rodney King, say, is the issue when talking about the rights of citizens to not be beaten by cops. People on the right love making the specifics the issue. "Well, King was a felon, blah blah blah." Who the fuck cares?"

The only issue is rights. The specifics are irrelevant. I don't care if the community center hurts the right's fee-fees. I don't care if gay marriage hurts the right's fee-fees. I don't care if gay couples live happy lives together forever, or hate each other and wish they'd never married. That's all irrelevant. What's relevant is the rights.

I don't want the president saying, "I support this building because of all the lovely people and the lovely message.' Screw that. I want the president to support the building because that's just how it works here.


[ Parent ]
It is the issue. (4.00 / 1)
The Right saw a chance to score some cheap points and rally their base, and they took it.

Really, if Obama can't help us in these matters, if he doesn't understand how this stuff works and what's at stake, then he's better off staying out of it.

He does less damage when he just watches from the sidelines.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
They are making a stink about (4.00 / 1)
BECAUSE THEY DON"T BELIEVE THE STATE SHOULD BE NEUTRAL.  

That is the core argument at issue.


[ Parent ]
There is no "neutral" here. (4.00 / 5)
You are either for religious freedom and tolerance, as represented by the Cordoba House, or you are against it, whether actively or passively.

Obama's passivity in the face of injustice is not a virtue.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Also, Hutchingson is clearly (0.00 / 0)
channeling McArdle when he says, 'technically true but collectively non sequitur.'

It's kinda embarrassing.


[ Parent ]
If it wasn't a walkback (4.00 / 3)
why was the second statement neccessary? What was wrong with the first speech? Why not let it stand on its own?

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Well it was either a walkback (0.00 / 0)
Or the first speech was much less than it initially seemed.


[ Parent ]
Because he was (4.00 / 2)
asked a question?

And he said, 'In this country, we treat everybody equally in accordance with the law." And he insisted that they have a right to build a 'mosque' there. And said that he's not saying anything about about the wisdom of building a mosque there, but that they absolutely have the right to.

I mean, does anyone thing it's a tremendously wise thing to do, to build a community center there? I'm pretty sure that some real estate became available that suited the project, so that's why they chose that location. Not because of the wisdom of the spheres.

And that's a nefarious walkback?

This is just silly. Hair-trigger is right.


[ Parent ]
Keep in mind (0.00 / 0)
the administration chooses what media have access to Obama and what questions he will answer. If he was asked that question it was because he wanted to be asked that question.

He wanted an opportunity to walkbalk his earlier statement becuase, God help him, he thought it was the clever thing to do.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
You watched the video, I presume. (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Sorry, here: (0.00 / 0)
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITI...

I mean, I can detect what he did wrong, but it takes a lot of effort to generate any poutrage about it. Hair trigger.


[ Parent ]
"Poutrage!" (4.00 / 1)
How clever!

Seriously, if Obama can't do this he's better off keeping his mouth shut. He thinks he's running circles around everyone else but he's just digging himself deeper into a hole.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Well, it's not mine. (0.00 / 0)
Usually applied to the right when they get into a triple-axel-tizzy about something obscure. Like Brooks is all in a poutrage today because Obama said that 9/11 was 'traumatic.'

We're upset because Obama said: ""I was commenting very specifically on the right people have that dates back to our founding. That's what our country is about and I think it's very important, as difficult as some of these issues are, that we stay focused on who we are as a people and what our values are all about."


[ Parent ]
"We?" (0.00 / 0)
You're not upset with Obama, you're defending him.

And if you don't understand by this point why progressives are upset with him for making yet another bait-and-switch, you probably aren't ever going to get it, so you might as well forget about it and move on.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Actually, I am upset with him. (0.00 / 0)
Just not about this. But you're right that's it's probably best to move on.

[ Parent ]
It's a complicated issue, politically (not morally) (4.00 / 8)
And no one -- not even the PL (professional left) -- was demanding he take a position.

But having decided to take a position,  he should have come down clearly on the side of religious tolerance, which, as you say, is also anti-AQ and pro-national security.

Instead we got classic Obama: an attempt to split the difference, fear of conflict, a move that both energizes his enemies and de-energizes those who would have gone to the wall supporting the right position.  


And Don't Forget Pakistan (4.00 / 2)
Where's the President (and ex-Presidents) asking for Americans to help tens of millions of Pakistanis affected by flooding? Clearly it is in our interests as human beings as well as our foreign policy interests to have a high profile relief effort to help the Pakistanis recover. Yet all you hear are crickets.

Then again, last August at the height of the "death panels" and town halls Obama was out golfing on Martha's Vineyard (?) with the head of UBS which had been indicted within the prior week. The guy is tone deaf, and his staff.


He may well be tone deaf (4.00 / 4)
But pitch is the least of his problems. This isn't about optics, but reality. He's in bed with the power and money establishment and truth be told I think he likes it. He doesn't appear to be doing this out of "pragmatism" (let alone brilliant 11D chess), but rather out of choice. A combination of personal weakness, lack of deep conviction about public policy, and fierce ambition, has led him to this place.

He was a progressive community organizer the same way that the children of the upper middle class were "hippies" for a time during the 60's, before they cut their hair, put on suits, and joined the establishment that they were always bound to join (and now lead). It was all about slumming and pretending to be someone that you're not and never will be, for show, and for fun. It was never real.

Obama is the Democratic party's Reagan, pretending to be progressive (as Reagan pretended to be conservative) in order to rally the troops and get elected, while actually promoting corporate/establishment interests.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Or... (4.00 / 4)
Monday:

I'm having a party this Saturday and you're all invited.

Tuesday:

Yes, I did say that I'm having a party this Saturday and that you're all invited, but that doesn't mean that you're all welcome.

I NEVER said that.

Wednesday:

You all still love me, even those who aren't welcome to my party this Saturday that they're invited to, right?

Thursday:

I'm here to speak to all you members of the professional invitees on behalf of my boss, who's throwing a party this Saturday that they're invited but not necessarily welcome to. Come if you like, but don't expect Dennis Kucinich to be there.

Friday:

We don't comment on matters of party importance.

Yes, that means you too, Betty Thomas and Michael Hastings.



"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

Saturday: (4.00 / 2)
What is everybody all mad about? Losers.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Sunday: (4.00 / 3)
My party was AWESOME!! Too bad you weren't there!

Don't forget to vote for me, and can I have $20?

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Watch the full video (4.00 / 2)
Even the second time, Obama did far more than claim they have a legal right to build a mosque.  Watch the video, all the way to the end.  He describes the right not as a legal technicality, but as one of our most cherished traditions and values.  That "we stay focused on who we are as a people and what our values are all about".

That is a lot stronger than conceded they have the right to build the mosque.

True, it isn't the full case for the center you make above, but lets not pretend it is just the same as simply recognizing a legal right.



So why does he question the wisdom of building it? (4.00 / 4)


Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Wisdom (0.00 / 0)
I don't want to get into a full throated endorsement of Obama's position, as I think I'd prefer what Paul wrote above.  At a minimum, I would have preferred he not bring up the "wisdom" at all.

I suspect the "wisdom" line had more to do with calls from worried Democrats than anything else.  This allows Democrats to answer the question "do you agree with Obama on the mosque" lots of wiggle room.  They can take the legal version of the answer, which everyone says they agree with.  I'm not very happy about that, but I get it.

But I think it is important and significant to point out Obama is not just agreeing with some legal technical point.  He is fundamentally linking that right to a central American value.  Allowing this to be build defines us as a nation and a tolerant culture.  

I certainly hope everyone here agrees that this right to religious freedom is far more important than the specifics of this case.  More importantly, they don't depend upon the specifics.  The developers could actually be who the conservatives claim they are, and it would still be true.

So yes, I'd prefer Obama supported both the American value of religious tolerance and the specifics of this particular project.  But ultimately, it is the former that is important, not the latter.  To claim this is an "assist to mosque-haters and al Qaeda" is just stupid.  (And I rarely think that about anything Paul writes, even when I disagree.)


[ Parent ]
I don't read it that way. (4.00 / 2)
I hear things like people on the radio saying "if it is built something will happen and it will all be the Muslims fault" (and not callers either, but a top-40 station morning host) and then Obama says he questions the wisdom of building the Cordoba House and it does not sound like he is trying to help us build a tolerant culture at all.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Obama said what?? (0.00 / 0)
Obama says he questions the wisdom of building the Cordoba House

Did you actually watch the video?  At no point does Obama "question" the wisdom.  He states he will not comment on the wisdom, but strongly defends their rights.  I defy you to find people who are against the Cordoba House that think Obama just came to their defense.  They don't exist*.  

(* Well, you can always find one of anything.)


[ Parent ]
What does it mean to say (4.00 / 1)
you will not comment on the wisdom of something?

This is a rhetorical device called "raising a question." He raised a question, refused to answer it, left his opinion up in the air and open for interpretation. What that means is that those who choose to interpret his position as opposed to the Cordoba House are invited, by him, to do so.

Like I said earlier, if he can't handle this kind of thing I really wish he would just keep his mouth shut because his compulsion to be the smartest kid in class only ends up doing more harm than good.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Drawing a line (4.00 / 1)
I get why this annoys you, so perhaps I should just shut up about it.  But you can strongly support someone's rights and/or you can agree (or disagree) with how they use those rights.  He wanted to make the point he was doing the first but not the second.

Everything he said in the first speech he still stand behind, completely.  

Was the "wisdom" phrase awkward?  I don't think so, but to each their own.


[ Parent ]
ps (4.00 / 3)
The Right does not think he came to their defense, rather, they know he caved, he signaled he will not put up any resistance. It's all they ever ask of him and they won't hesitate to ask again.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
What does it mean to question the "wisdom" of putting (4.00 / 4)
the center there, and why is Obama going there? I would question the wisdom of putting the mosque over an Indian burial ground and question the wisdom of razing the wailing wall to build a mosque, but to question the wisdom of building a mosque in a privately owned building that is only near, and not on, ground zero feels like religious persecution to me. Ground zero is not a holy site. Those who died there did are not martyrs for Christianity, even if the legions of tourists believe so.

I think Obama does believe what he says, but he would never take a risk by speaking before he can survey the political landscape. Have our standards sunk so low?


[ Parent ]
Question? (0.00 / 0)
Where did the phrase "question the wisdom" come from?  You guys are spinning this to be something that Obama didn't say.

In the other thread, someone pointed out we were discussing a molehill next to a mountain.  The mountain was Obama's initial speech Friday and his reiteration of those principles Saturday.  The molehill was his statement that he was not commenting on the wisdom of the center.  That about sums it up.


[ Parent ]
"I will not comment on" (4.00 / 1)
is another way of saying "I question." For example, "I will not comment on your ability to parallel park" means "I don't think you can parallel park for shit but I am too snooty to say so directly."

And if the first speech was a mountain (which it could've been) why the need to undermine it with the second?

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Classic Obama (4.00 / 1)
Classic Obama - trying to have it both ways. So which is it? It certainly can't be both. Can we get a straight answer from this guy? Is that too much to ask for?

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