Great comment on neoliberalism

by: Daniel De Groot

Sat Sep 04, 2010 at 13:00


In response to my quick hit on UK public opinion strongly favouring having the Labour party abandon the "New Labour" neoliberal agenda, sTiVo has the following to say:


The thing about Britain is that their debate is closer to the real meat and potatoes of what this argument is all about.  Ours is frustratingly diverted into "Like or Dislike Obama" or "Is the Tea Party Racist" and other tangential questions.

Britain makes it clear: it's really about social democracy vs. neoliberalism.

It is important that [Open Left] understand this.  This is the debate that is barely allowed to be mentioned on our side of the pond but it's the crucial distinction.

When Paul Krugman argues for Keynesianism he's taking the social democratic side of this argument.  But he's not allowed to say so, or at least not willing.

The mistake of our side in the past period was in not understanding how strongly our opponents believed in the other side of this argument. It was indeed their central rationale.  It wasn't "just politics".
cont

Daniel De Groot :: Great comment on neoliberalism

When Barack Obama made his famous remarks about Ronald Reagan being transformational, it was misinterpreted as being political, an attempt to reach out to the other side.  It actually was, as some feared, philosophical.  It really did mean, sincerely, that except around the edges, he thought that Reaganism-Thatcherism was irreversible.  Just as Bill Clinton does, just as Tony Blair does.

The Third-Wayers are serious about this.  Seriously deluded, perhaps, but dead serious.  There was never an attempt to triangulate the "independent center", those who still believed in Reaganism but were distressed by the partisan cultural meanness.  That was sincere.  Those who were played were the Democratic base.  They would have to be satisfied with corporate-style knockoffs of social-democratic ideas (health care being the most obvious example).  Labor reformers would have to be mollified with "we don't have 60 votes".  And symbolic gestures devoid of content like inviting Pete Seeger to the White House.

Why didn't this work?  Why are the Dems SO wounded by a bad economy?  A better economy was absolutely crucial to the Third Way plan.  They didn't think it would get this bad.  If it hadn't gotten this bad, they might have been able to pull it off.  People would be working, the craziness wouldn't have gained so much traction, people would have been able to laugh at Sarah Palin, Dems would have been fat and happy.  But that way depended on bubble economics, which the neolibs mistaken thought was permanent.  They may not even believe they depend on bubble economics, they may even delude themselves that they truly stand in the middle.  But when push comes to shove, they never move to the left.

Instead we have this worst of all possible worlds - Obama falsely accused of "socialism" and "socialism" - his toothless attempts to counter bubble economics - all that neoliberalism will allow - blamed for the economic failure.

When the pundits say "America is a conservative country" I have to say, in opposition to most left thinking, they're right in a way.  Our counterargument has been poll numbers.  This is not an effective counter because they have enough power elsewhere to spit on poll numbers, to manipulate them and to make the inconvenient ones disappear.  Thus we hear endlessly about polling on the the "Ground Zero Mosque".  Not so much about Social Security.

When we say "the Dems hate the Left" or they're beating up on "dirty fucking hippies", what we're REALLY saying is that, for the Third-Wayers, neoliberalism vs. social democracy is actually the whole ballgame.  The last vestiges of American social democracy - the New Deal and all its accoutrements - must be wiped out, at all costs.  

They haven't been able to say so - because they need the votes of the "little people".  But there's almost no play left in that gambit.  With each [dispiriting] election betrayal (Clinton and NAFTA, Obama and Health Care, Obama and Social Security) the Democratic brand gets weaker and weaker.

We on the Left, the "netroots", etc., need to understand the centrality of this point more than we do.  The coming fight over Social Security is not one issue among many, it's the defining issue of this period.  Third Way politics is dependent on the bubble economy.  This has failed.  We can't go back there.  We have to make this known.  

The Third Wayers were born of the idea that Communism had failed.  It had, but the Third Wayers went much too far in sweeping the entire social democratic program off the table with it.  The social democratic reforms of the twentieth century are what enabled the West to defeat the problematic communist opponent.  The mistake is in cynically jettisoning them after the threat passed.  Bait and switch, really. But going back to the nineteenth century for economic inspiration ignores why social democracy and communism gained the traction they did in the first place.  

Free-market fundamentalism is not the answer, but the Third Wayers have no answer to it, because they cravenly accept its orthodoxies.  In the current situation we have to drag them, kicking and screaming, back from this abyss.

But until we understand why we're in the position we're in we won't be able to get out of it.

STRENGTHEN SOCIAL SECURITY.  DON'T CUT IT.

(I bolded a few key passages and corrected a couple typos)

Well said, particularly raising the too-rarely raised point that the New Deal (and Great Society) built America into the most powerful and prosperous society in human history.  This should be one of the most powerful arguments for the type of liberal/progressive policies most reading here support, and should be used more often.  All of the sophistry that gets into the weeds of various New Deal programs and arguments about arcane figures feels rather unnecessary when you look at the grand aggregate result.  If it was all such a failure, why did America succeed so well?


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sTiVo is absolutely correct (4.00 / 19)
In theory, communism was utopian. In practice communism failed because, in one government after another, it repeatedly manifested as a form of centralized control that quickly evolved to dictatorship and totalitarianism. As a global society were are learning that, just as totalitarianism can evolve from communism, it can also evolve from socialism, capitalism, and even democracy.

Many people think that social democracy and socialism are the same. They are not. Social democracy is derived from enlightenment principles that treat the both the rights of the individual and the government's social responsibility as coequal. Social democracy requires a rule of law based in reason (i.e., logic). Its "prime directive" is equality among individuals. (I'm a social democrat. Can you tell?)

In the U.S., neoliberalism has evolved from communism into a form of global monopoly capitalism. Neoliberalism has nothing in common with social democracy. They are two separate sets of ideas at war with each other. Our current Democratic neoliberalism and Republican neoconservatism both serve the same masters. Although they have each in turn had some success in establishing the U.S. as a global empire they have failed completely where democracy is concerned. Very simply put, they are predatory in their fundamental natures. They are antithetical to democracy.

We will know the strength of our democracy by the commitments we make to the rule of law (i.e, the rights of the individual in society) and the equality of opportunity we establish among our citizens. In the 21st century, without a shared responsibility for public healthcare, public education, public free speech, public freedom of movement and a clean and healthy environment, there is no democracy.

It should be obvious to any rational human being that there is no future for the brand of fascism we currently call Republican neoconservatism. Likewise, there is no future for the form of oligarchy we currently call Democratic neoliberalism.

There is and will always be a future for democracy.    


A Thought Question (4.00 / 6)
What about China? It strikes me that what the Chinese have tried to do after Mao will arrive some day at a point the Republicans and Third Way Democrats want to also arrive at: a top down elitist controlled economy with vestiges of free markets and popular control, enough to keep the plebes happy but not enough to threaten the power of the elites. That's not representative democracy, certainly not social democracy. But it's not pure Communism either.

How do you think China fits into the Communist aspect of this argument? I don't carry water for China, certainly, but it strikes me they have found a viable direction if not model. And it looks a lot like where corporate Republicans and corporate Democrats are headed.


[ Parent ]
I've thought about this too (4.00 / 5)
And I tend to wonder if China's model is sustainable, particularly if widely emulated.  It strikes me as more than a little parasitic, relying on high cost labour in first world countries for it to undercut, and currency manipulation.  If everyone has cheap labour and cut-rate currency, what then?

I think the model works so long as they can manage extraordinary growth (8% or higher) rates.  While that is happening, everyone's lifestyle is improving materially so they tolerate elite skimmers and a lack of political freedom.  When the growth slows down to developed-country rates, will dissatisfaction bloom?


[ Parent ]
I think that China is more about where we've been (4.00 / 6)
than where we are going.

When we look at what happened prior to and during WWII, the thing that really sticks out in economic terms is the increase in manufacturing capacity and efficiency in the U.S. coming out of the war. Given the giant manufacturing machine that we had created, exports alone were not a viable economic way forward. What we did was re-embrace the idea that a working middle class could provide a means of consuming the kind of mass production of which we were capable. The rapid rise of the middle-class following the war led to a workforce boom, a baby boom and an economic boom that allowed my generation to live lives of prosperity that our grandparents and parents had never dreamed.

Well, . . . that's over.

It's just my opinion, but China is in a similar position to the U.S. following WWII. Their manufacturing economy is the source of their political, social and economic power in the world. At this time, I do not think they can rely on the developed nations for their continued growth. They are, however, in a position to consume their own production. They can remain an economic growth engine by building a middle-class that earns enough money to buy cars, TVs, furniture, clothes, computers, cell phones, . . . the whole bit. That is what I think is going to happen. I also think our multi-national corporations will make every attempt to sell into that market and try to rely less and less on U.S. consumers for their profits. If you think our corporate oligarchy doesn't care about us now, just give it another ten years of this neoliberal generational theft. We'll have the kind of income disparity you find in a country like Brazil.

http://internationalbusiness.w...

Brazil has a Gini index of over 60
The US Gini index runs in the mid 40s
The EU Gini index runs in the low 30s

So, we're about halfway between EU "socialism" and a pure plutocracy.

If you're a geek:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G...

The takeaway is: where income distribution is concerned our best years were 1968-70 and our worst years (since 1929) are now. In other words, we don't do income equality very well.


[ Parent ]
The Road Not Taken (4.00 / 1)
Thanks Daniel and Michael. I wonder if the US economic boom Michael describes could have been extended indefinitely if it had been managed well. For example, shifting from an oil based economy in the 1980s to a green economy, as well as changing from a suburban and ex-urban economy and housing system to more centralized forms with public transportation. Perhaps collapse was inevitable and the hijacking of the economy by US corporations and others starting in the 1980s simply hastened that end.

It does seem a huge waste of human capital. Especially since, in hindsight, it appears the impetus for the corporate takeover was racism: the fear of poor and middle class whites that the civil rights movement would damage their opportunities (at best) or simply racism (worst case). White fear in the 1960s and 1970s appears to have been the catalyst that allowed corporate interests the opportunity to really gain economic and political power at the expense of other interests in our society.

And, as citizens, it makes me wonder if there is an alternative today, if the tide can be turned back. Certainly the failures of the past four decades provide political capital to be exploited.


[ Parent ]
It absolutely could have been avoided.... (4.00 / 1)
...all we had to do was keep in place the tariffs that we had for most of our history.  We decided to abandon the American School of Economics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_School_%28economics%29), and it was a decision the leadership of this country made.  We are now paying the cost for those decisions.

Regards,

Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me-and I welcome their hatred. - FDR


[ Parent ]
I may be wrong, but (4.00 / 2)
isn't this consistent with the "destroy the middles class" pogrom? So clearly depicted recently by Rosenberg right here on OL.

I mean, without a middles class, won't US workers be forced to accept wages more like those of the Chinese? No need to off-shore or out-source - keep American jobs at home where they belong. At slave-wages, but hey, you get the prestige of living in the greatest nation on Earth and praying for your pitiful lives in the christian church of your choice.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Great points!!! (0.00 / 0)


Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me-and I welcome their hatred. - FDR

[ Parent ]
Where will the low wage workers be found (0.00 / 0)
upon which to make possible Chinese Wal Marts that will stabilize a middle class?

As I understand the situation, the Western middle class lifestyle is made possible by the exploitation of workers like the Chinese - is that not accurate?

If the Chinese follow the US model - they require someone to exploit, who?


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Great point (4.00 / 4)
and one that needs to be stressed more.

there is and always will be a future for democracy

What is meant by "democracy" anyway?

I can't improve on the definition given by Abraham Lincoln:

"government of the people, by the people, and for the people".

Of, By, and For.  Three little prepositions.

Democracy stresses all three.  Neoliberalism AT BEST, subscribes only to the last of them.  To the extent these folks are sincere at all, and I believe they are, the Ivy League "best and brightest" really do believe that they can govern FOR the people better than the people can do themselves.  

They can "reform" social security by "splitting the difference" with an opponent who is constantly widening the difference?  These guys are smart?  Legends in their own minds, more like it.  

They're for labor until it wants a true voice in governance.  That's BY the people and we can't have that.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
That comment is a fine essay (4.00 / 18)
I think the Catfood Commission offers a great chance for us to clarify the issues, and the sides, and to win. Social Security isn't just another Democratic Program; it's the Democratic Party. In the same way that the Democratic Party beat back Bush's attempt the privatize and hurt Bush in the process, liberals can beat back the neoliberals' attempt to cut SS and beat them in the process.

This is true --

The thing about Britain is that their debate is closer to the real meat and potatoes of what this argument is all about.  Ours is frustratingly diverted into "Like or Dislike Obama"

-- but it's true in large measure because Obama was savvy enough during his campaign to distance himself from Clintonism. He knew he needed to get to Clinton's left and to fight off Edwards, so he ran rhetorically against triangulation and pretended he wanted to redo NAFTA, muddying the waters even though telltale signs were there, for example his headlining speech at the launch of Rubin's Hamilton Group, which he called a "breath of fresh air."

He chose his words carefully, but his inclinations were clear enough. He declared himself a "free trader," and said:

For those  on the left, and I include myself in that category, too many of us have been interested in defending programs the way they were written in 1938, believing that if we admit the need to modernize these programs to fit changing times, then the other side will use those acknowledgments to destroy them altogether.

Even though any ambiguity on this point should've been washed away when he whipped for TARP, then picked Summers and Geithner, there are still many progressives who don't see, or claim not to see, what side of the divides he's on.

The coming fight over the Catfood Commission will, I suspect, be defining, in more ways than one.

I welcome it.  


I've been thinking that as well - that the catfood commission fight (4.00 / 2)
will be a defining moment. And, with all the reconsideration of King that's been going on since the Beck demonstration I've been wondering what communal action might be appropriate for that fight. A national "sick day"? A national strike? And I'm also wondering whether any national group exists to lead such a fight.

Without some answers on the action and leadership front, though, I don't exactly welcome the battle. We're three months out from the lame duck session and most of that time will be spent fighting an election. And I don't see anyone-apart from the issue groups formed to defend Social Security-preparing for the commission's report.

I don't want to be a downer. But if we're looking ahead at a repeat of the NAFTA dynamic, I do want to know that someone with money and reach is getting ready to stop it.


[ Parent ]
Good questions (4.00 / 5)
The problem here is that none but the "usual suspects" are willing to push the Catfood Commission fight to the hilt, because of the all too real fears that pushing too hard with further split the Democrats and lead to more disastrous results in November.  Unlike many here, I take such fears seriously.  A Republican takeover of even just the House would set everything back tremendously, even as I also know the weaknesses of the Democrats.

So we are left with trying to pump the issue while being nice enough not to notice (much) the fact the Democrats are really split on it.  All the focus on Simpson is excellent - the guy is a walking ad for why the Catfood Commission is full of shit.  How many Third Rails is this guy going to touch?  310 million tits?  Greedy soldiers?  Jesus Christ.  If we can't make something out of those lemons, who are we kidding?

And so there will be this election.  Maybe the Dems can pull it out.  I still hope so.  But I'm not willing to keep my mouth shut about the policies.  As David Mizner said above, Social Security IS the Democratic Party.  Defending its crown jewel CANNOT be disloyal, by definition.  To the extent that the Democrats don't measure up, so much the worse for them.

At any rate, November 2010 will come and go.  The Democrats will or will not maintain control of Congress.  At that point we need to get ready to go full bore on Day 1.  The fat will be in the fire.  The point must be made a thousand ways that cutting Social Security means certain defeat for Obama in 2012.

There are some other things that we can do.  This October 2 march is starting to gather momentum.  Ed Schultz just endorsed it.  Drowning out Glenn Beck with a bigger march seems worthwhile to me - all the moreso if "Hands off Social Security" is one of its themes.  We can use Obama's bogus "anti-privatization" rhetoric against him.  Just as it plays to popular ignorance of what the game is, we can "support" anti-privatization by "extending" it rhetorically to include opposition to other cuts.  If we do this well enough, the distinction Obama will want to make between privatizing and killing with a thousand cuts will get lost and can be made to seem like a flipflop.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
I don't want to dismiss the power (4.00 / 6)
of power, but this issue is singular. I'm optimistic, seeing how Simpson's comment placed Obama's normal defenders and neoliberal commenters on the defensive. With labor fully on our side, we'll have a lot of leverage in the House.

But then I don't just want a narrow numerical victory in the House, I want a victory that shifts the balance of power in the Democratic Party, and the country.  


[ Parent ]
This may be a job for organizations (0.00 / 0)
outside the mainstream party structure.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
What ever happens in November is just dessert. (4.00 / 3)
Voting for Democrats in November and Obama in 2012 because they are better than dirt is only going to prolong the misery.   Until they loot it all, they won't stop; and we are obviously powerless to stop them.  We win a fight.  They retreat. and then they come back again and again and again until they inevitably get what they want.  A choice between Edwards, Obama, and Clinton clearly speaks to that.  

The Reaganites, religous right, evangelicals, neocons, teabaggers really don't give a damn about the Republican Party.  They reinvent themselves and keep on "winning".   They want what they want, and they are quite prepared to let the devil take the hindmost whether they are Republicans or Democrats.  

The left, oth, continues to support and pursue a disguised loyalty pledge of "more and better Democrats" - despite all of the losses and having nothing to show for it except a repeated suggestion from the party establishment to go fuck ourselves.  The "left" really needs to learn a lesson or two from the crazy right, and they better do it quickly.  More of the same is not acceptable; and if we can't drag these so called Democrats across the finish line, then I say "let go of the rope".   Let them fall on their asses and get it over with.  For once I'd like to deserve the blame they heap on me. It will finally mean we have some power.    No, I am not happy that we have to go for the ride; but I don't see any other way.  Liberals = 0  Teabaggers = 5   We vote for them, send them money, and all we get is ignored or blamed for their failures.

I really don't know how I will vote in November, or if I will even vote.   I'm pretty fed up.   If I can't effect change, then I might as well just wait for them to blow themselves up or for liberals to grow a spine. I can't say it enough.   If we can't hurt them, we have no influence.  We are just a lot of pie fights and cheerleaders squabbling all over the front page of dailykos.  


[ Parent ]
Outstanding essay by sTiVo and outstanding comments by Michael Harold and David Mizner (4.00 / 7)


Yes, great stuff sTiVo (4.00 / 2)
on the mark.

[ Parent ]
Lots of good "bold worthy" stuff here, (4.00 / 4)
this being one of them:

Instead we have this worst of all possible worlds - Obama falsely accused of "socialism" and "socialism" - his toothless attempts to counter bubble economics - all that neoliberalism will allow - blamed for the economic failure.

Sure, this idea has been stated many times before, but I particularly like the succinct and unambiguous nature of this particular phrasing.


Every worker needs a pay raise, (4.00 / 3)
Every worker needs a pay raise, as it will stimulate the economy and create new jobs. A pay raise especially for those at the lower end of the pay scales. Even better they can transition from a 40-hour workweek to a 30-hour workweek keeping the 30-hour workweek wages the same as the 40-hour workweek.

By the way this will increase Social Security and Medicare income.


This is an economic difference (4.00 / 5)
And one that doesn't come to light as often as it should because we keep getting side-tracked with culture war crap like the not-quite-ground-zero non-mosque.  Some people are talking about not letting the haters win when we should be talking about not letting them change the topic.  Neoliberals don't get the thrashing they deserve because they are perceived as necessary allies on issues like secularism.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

That's why they are called "wedge issues" (4.00 / 1)


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Please reconsider (4.00 / 2)

1. Bloggers here and elsewhere do not set the agenda. If OL and the rest had followed your advice the media narrative and political dynamics would not have been different by one iota. Your argument depends - crucially - on a massive overstatement of our influence.

2. Those with influence, like the leaders of the party, have stayed pretty close to your recommended strategem and it is not working. They featured the "right to build" and "1st Amendment" tact, just as you recommended. They have attempted to point out - think Biden, think Obama, think others - that this "controversy" is being ginned up to divert from GOPer intransigence on economy.

When the bully steals your lunch money day after day after day, sometimes you have to take him on directly. Pointing out that he is trying to cover up his poor grades does nothing.

It does not reliably refocus the conversation on your preferred topics.

It does not correct the image of being weak, repelling potential allies.

It does not prevent further attacks but invites them.

Sorry for my tone but we have the data: your argument fails.  

Not to mention it is possible for smart communicators to do both:

"Muslim Americans are first and foremost Americans and we were all attacked on 9-11 and, as Americans, we leave no citizens behind because of some ignorant and hate mongering politician angling for gain. That is not why our brave soldiers died in Normandy. Those aren't the values we have always stood for. Support for a center conceived in peace and understanding is in the best American tradition and one which shows the world who we are and who we want to be.

We refuse to let the Republicans use their worst impulses to define all Americans. We Americans should come together to support each other, not further follow them into division and mistrust. They divide Americans. They seek to undermine the security of our seniors and veterans. To support the very few wealthiest Americans, they are prepared to allow deficits to explode. They focus on hate because they have no answers for the problems average Americans face. But we see through them. Americans need to get back to work. So do those construction workers and electricians and those plumbers ready and willing to build this center for peace."

Did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts? Hot ashes for trees? Hot air for a cool breeze? And cold comfort for change?


[ Parent ]
If you have a message in there, I'm missing it. (4.00 / 2)
Overstate their influence?  you bet, yet you claim people listened to them and then failed.  Who listened to them?   And saying is not doing....  The populist rhetoric of 2008 won with a mandate for change.  Neoliberal, establishment Obama of 2010 is losing his ass.  

[ Parent ]
I'll simplify (4.00 / 1)
I'm not a messenger, so my statement is inelegant, but the point is that the left (at least) should be able to say and do: "don't watch other citizens thrown under the bus and promote policies to restore economic justice." de Jesus' is saying forget the former, do only the latter (as I read it).

de Jesus assumes something that isn't so; bloggers and the left don't have influence over party power brokers (you make the same argument upthread).

de Jesus' "winning" advice is being used by the leaders who have power and they are not winning, by their own standards.

You add that leaders don't want to do what he says they should do. Probably true, but this just further underscores the emptiness of his argument.

What I am hearing from you is a lot of verbalized frustration and no hint of what actions should be taken, other than letting everything burn down, again assuming a false choice: sit on our asses while everything goes to the next level of hell and then we will pick up the pieces (if there is anything left) OR vote for losers that will stab us in the back.

I have no illusions that anything here at OL, much less anything I may contribute, will affect much. But articulating it is part of not going insane and helps me to develop and scope my actions. About which you know nothing, but I can give you a brief sketch.

I view elections and party politicking as but one part of a broad continuum of social and political action, probably not even the most important part. Instead I place greater emphasis on helping to build counter-institutions with my neighbors: community gardens, reclaiming and renovating drug dens for low-income housing, building access to digital resources for low-income folks (free mesh networks, community computing centers, refurbished computers). Stuff that is a good idea whether or not the collapse you long for comes.

And then I also agitate and vote. Clarke over Kilpatrick. Bernero over Snyder. Contribute to help Kitzhaber over Dudley back home.

Walking and chewing gum, rather than false choices and apocalyptic hand-wringing.

Did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts? Hot ashes for trees? Hot air for a cool breeze? And cold comfort for change?


[ Parent ]
The way I would put it (4.00 / 2)
is the Democratic Party should be for both jobs AND equal rights. No false dilemmas here, and no need for any.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
And as a side note (4.00 / 1)
the neoliberal plan is to be for neither, and we see how well that works out.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
I don't think you understand what I am saying (0.00 / 0)
I'm not talking about Republicans.  I'm saying that culture war issues obscure the real differences on economic issues that progressives have with neoliberals.  As long as the emotional focus is on the "American Taliban" and not the economic structure of this nation, there is a fear that any internal struggle on the left will lead to the racist, religious nuts winning, so there is not as much will to fight against the parts of the center-left coalition that may seem to move in the same direction on policy, if not as far, as progressives, but have a significant different worldview.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
But you don't get to choose what other (4.00 / 1)
people care about. For the victims of the American Taliban, it matters very much what they say and do, and whether or not someone is going to stick up for you against them.

If someone is not with me against the American Taliban why should I give two shits what they have to say about anything else? They are untrustworthy.

And again, there is no conflict between a prosperity agenda and an equality one. None. In fact, I don't see how you could ever truly achieve the one without the other.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Yes, many are missing Anthony's point (0.00 / 0)
Yeah, I'm pissed that more Dems don't stand up to the idiocy around the Ground Zero "Mosque", but not nearly as pissed as I'll be if Democrats help to cripple Social Security.  And yes, I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm less critical of Barack Obama "amping down" his support for the mosque after what I presume to be panicky calls from Democratic Congresspeople than I will be when and if he goes ahead with a Social Security-crippling agenda that he doesn't need to do.  

As an example of what Anthony's talking about, a poster here a couple of weeks ago was hailing the mosque hero Michael Bloomberg in terms so glowing that they almost sounded like a wish that he'd run for President.  In spite of his obvious pro-Wall St. bias and lousy stance on education.

Strategy and tactics, folks.  If no part of the agenda can ever be deemphasized (not abandoned) for tactical reasons, we don't have a real movement.  If we refuse to work with anyone whose position on the mosque isn't right, then we can't win the fight to save Social Security.

In theory, the agenda is a seamless whole.  I agree, in theory.  But politics isn't played on an entirely theoretical chessboard.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
sTiVo is spot on here, as is (0.00 / 0)
Michael and David and so many others.

Very good post, and very good comments.


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