Against Virtue: A dime's worth of difference.

by: Paul Rosenberg

Tue Sep 07, 2010 at 10:30



Who could be against virtue? Who could be opposed to the embodiment of what is right?

But what if that'a not exactly what I mean? What if I mean "against" as in "next to"?  And what if goodness is not necessarily best understood as emdobied?  What if it might also be understood situationally?

What if the notions handed down to us from ancient Greek philosophers like Socrates, Plato and Aristotle--especially Aristotle, the great systematizer--what if they were all wrong?

Or perhaps not all wrong, but mistaken the same way that Newtonian mechanics is mistaken compared to quantum mechanics and relativity?  And what if the world as we live in it today were very far from the conditions in which Newtonian assumptions hold good?

That's how I'd frame the issues raised by Thomas Nadelhoffer on the Situationist blog in "Virtue Ethics and the Situationist Challenge"

Paul Rosenberg :: Against Virtue: A dime's worth of difference.
First I'm going to describe Nadelhoffer's article, then I'll comment on it.  He begins with a quick introduction of the subject of virtue ethics:

We commonly describe people's behavior in terms of character traits such as honest, courageous, generous, and the like.  Furthermore, we praise and reward those who display virtuous character traits and we look down upon those who exemplify vices such as dishonesty, cowardice, and stinginess.   That virtue ethics [developed most fully by Aristotle] captures this aspect of our everyday moral practices-i.e., our tendency to describe human behavior in terms of dispositional traits that give rise to virtues and vices-is purportedly one of its chief selling points.

Only it turns out that relatively simple empirical tests seem to show that this isn't how people actually work.  And some philosophers take this evidence as a serious challenge to the philosophical tradition of virtue ethics.  Nadelhoffer calls this the Situational Challenge, and give this example of the kind of evidence it involves:

To get a feel for the sorts of empirical pressures that allegedly face virtue theorists, consider the surprising results from the "helping for a dime" studies reported in Isen & Levin (1972).  Subjects were random pedestrians in San Francisco, CA and Philadelphia, PA who stopped to use a public payphone.  Whereas some subjects found a dime that had been planted in the phone booth by researchers, other subjects did not find a dime.  When subjects left the phone booth, a female confederate of the researchers dropped an armful of papers and researchers recorded whether or not the individuals leaving the phone booth stopped to help.

The results were shocking: the subjects who found the dimes were 22 times more likely to help a woman who "dropped" her papers than the subjects who did not find the dime.  Let that sink in for a moment.  The slight elevation in emotion caused by randomly finding a dime on top of pay phone made a significant difference on subjects' moral behavior-something presumably all participants would deny if asked.  Perhaps the most surprising feature of these results isn't that something so morally insignificant-namely, finding a dime in a phone booth-had such a pronounced effect on people's moral behavior, rather it's that these results appear to be representative of moral behavior rather than anomalous.

Now, I would never argue that there's no moral influence exerted by the development of character.  But if such a small environmental influence can have such a powerful effect, then it's clear that character-building practice and the virtue theory backing that practice up are but one part of the picture--a part that may loom large in some situations but that's just the point: their workings are situational, not absolute.

Nadelhoffer goes on to discuss how virtue theorists have responded, first of all by denying that there's any challenge at all:

Unsurprisingly, virtue theorists have not taken the Situationist Challenge lightly.  Perhaps the most common rejoinder to characterological skepticism is to suggest that the situationist literature is entirely consistent with traditional accounts of virtue ethics.  Indeed, we are told that the only reason virtue ethics appears to be under empirical attack is that the skeptics have purportedly either misread or misrepresented the ancient virtue theorists.    In making their case on this front, virtue theorists often appeal to the purported rarity of truly virtuous individuals.  Merritt (2000) summarizes this so-called "argument from rarity" (Doris 1998, p. ) in the following manner:
    Now many sympathizers with virtue ethics will want to say, "So what?" The experimental evidence shows only that most people aren't genuinely virtuous. (And haven't we always known this anyway, without needing experimental psychology to reveal it?)  That doesn't mean there's a problem with the normative ideal of virtue ethics.  It just means that being genuinely virtuous is a rare and difficult achievement" These people have a point. (p. 367-68)

There are also other alternatives:

Of course, this is not the only line of response open to the virtue ethicists. Rather than falling back on the rarity of virtue-which is not a move without its dialectical and theoretical costs-virtue theorists could also opt for any of the following strategies:
  1. The Empirical Counter-Challenge:  One could directly dispute the data from situational psychology rather than try to show that the data are compatible with the characterological moral psychology of virtue ethics.
  2. The Immunization Thesis:  One could accept the data on situationism at face value and suggest that we can use these data to immunize or shield ourselves from the etiological encroachment of morally irrelevant situational variables-i.e., armed with a better understanding of the threat of situationism, we will be better equipped to allow our dispositions to find expression in our action.
  3. The Mischaracterization Response:  Rather than focusing on the supposed rarity of truly virtuous agents and behavior, virtue theorists could focus instead on trying to show that characterological skeptics have misunderstood or misstated other importance aspects of virtue theory.
  4. The Revisionist Response:  The virtue theorists could accept that the data on situationism puts serious pressure on classical versions of virtue ethics.  So, rather than defending the Platonic or Aristotelian views from the challenge, these virtue theorists could offer revisionist or rival versions of virtue ethics that are purportedly better equipped to deal with the situationist challenge.

And Nadelhoffer sums up:

Regardless of which of these strategies the virtue theorist adopts, it is clear that the empirical data on the dispositional and situational roots of behavior have forced virtue theorists to carefully reexamine both the views of the ancients as well as the contemporary views rooted in these earlier views.  While the data themselves do not (and presumably cannot) undermine virtue ethics full stop, they do represent an empirically-tractable challenge that virtue theorists must take seriously.

So What? The Pragmatic Turn

Now, I take it that philosophers may well be capable of arguing over this for the next hundred, maybe thousand years or so.  As I said, I think it's obvious that virtue theory has some validity to it.  And so there's also value in trying to refine or reformulate it in light of this new evidence.

But I also think that these may not be the most important sorts of questions we should be arguing over, merely because they have such ancient roots.  Rather, for a variety reasons--most basically that of pragmatics, seeking to find ways towards the greatest good--I think that the most important questions may revolve around what other factors influence us toward virtuous behavior, or, more broadly, toward "good enough" behavior that enables us to live in what we recognize as:

    (a) A good society, in which social relations are predominantly synergistic and mutually beneficial.

    (b) The "Beloved Community" of Martin Luther King and Josiah Royce, which has been described as:
    an inclusive, interrelated society based on love, justice, compassion, responsibility, shared power and a respect for all people, places, and things-a society that radically transforms individuals and restructures institutions.

    (c) Any other desired specification for a preferred state of society.

In short, I am suggesting that we shift our thinking from the individual and individual-transactional level alone which takes society as a given (Kegan's Level 3) to the next-higher level (Kegan's Level 4) that takes society as an object, and considers individuals always embedded within it, but also capable of standing critically outside it and making changes to it.

So What? The Political/Ideological Turn

The sort of approach I'm suggesting here is one that opens up a much wider range of alternatives for critical inspection and debate.  One consequence of doing this is that we find ourselves in a position of being able to reflect upon some consequences of virtue ethics that generally escape the sort of scrutiny they deserve.

If one takes virtue ethics to be the standard for all moral and ethical reasoning, one ends up, for example, with the conservative, virtue-based ideology that lead the National Review to defend segregation in 1957 thus:

The central question that emerges--and it is not a parliamentary question or a question that is answered by meerely consulting a catalog of the rights of American citizens, born Equal--is whether the White community in the South is entitled to take such measures as are necessary to prevail, politically and culturally, in areas in which it does not predominate numerically? The sobering answer is Yes--the White community is so entitled because, for the time being, it is the advanced race. It is not easy, and it is unpleasant, to adduce statistics evidencing the median cultural superiority of White over Negro: but it is fact that obtrudes, one that cannot be hidden by ever-so-busy egalitarians and anthropologists. The question, as far as the White community is concerned, is whether the claims of civilization supersede those of universal suffrage. The British believe they do, and acted accordingly, in Kenya, where the choice was dramatically one between civilization and barbarism, and elsewhere; the South, where the conflict is by no means dramatic, as in Kenya, nevertheless perceives important qualitative differences between its culture and the Negroes', and intends to assert its own.

National Review believes that the South's premises are correct. If the majority wills what is socially atavistic, then to thwart the majority may be, though undemocratic, enlightened. It is more important for any community, anywhere in the world, to affirm and live by civilized standards, than to bow to the demands of the numerical majority. Sometimes it becomes impossible to assert the will of a minority, in which case it must give way, and the society will regress; sometimes the numberical minority cannot prevail except by violence: then it must determine whether the prevalence of its will is worth the terrible price of violence.

Virtue and honor have always been used to justify racism.  They were watchwords of the Confederacy, as well as the segregated South, not to mention apartheid South Africa.  Even to this day, anti-black prejudice is justified in characterological terms--though much less offensively and much more subtly than once was the case.  And not just anti-black prejudice.  So long as characterological explanations are over-valued compared to actual empirical evidence, they will readily lend themselves to the justification of prejudice, and the consolidation of group privilege and power, with the inevitable result of social injustice.  We see this sort of dynamic all about us just now: against Hispanics, against Muslims, against gays and lesbians, against blacks.

Furthermore, we are told by people who know virtually nothing about Martin Luther King that they are merely following his lead in judging people by the "content of their character", although they--in virtually total ignorance of King's thought--have no idea of how he defined character in "The Drum Major Instrinct."

Giving Each Its Due

The characterological approach is inevitably subject to myriad confusions because it lacks sufficient breadth of vision--considering individuals and character traits in isolation--as well as depth of insight into differences of culture which it easily misrepresents as character failings, rather than what they actually are.

As with the example of Newtonian mechanics compared to relativity or quantum mechanics, one needs the less obvious, but more comprehensive theory in order to be able to see just where the classical theory works well enough to be relied on, and where it starts to break down, and why.  It is only the more advanced, more sophisticated theory that can be the foundation for mediating between the two, even though both of them have their place. The classical theory is incapable of properly grasping its own limitations.

So, too, for virtue ethics and the conservative moral & political tradition embodied in it from the time of Aristotle down to the present day.  We can and should continue to respect it for the light that it sheds on what it gets right.  But it is fundamentally incapable of grasping its own limitations, and thus respect for what it does properly should never become deference concerning what it does not.

This is the fundamental insight that Obama and all his neoliberal fellow-travellers utterly and totally lack.


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Considering the heavy focus (4.00 / 1)
that both Plato and Aristotle put onto conditioning and habit when they discussed how to inculcate "good" ethics, I kind of agree that I don't know how much of a challenge the situationalist framework is, either.  Plato, in particular, would argue that evil acts would largely come out of circumstance and ignorance.    

But (4.00 / 1)
The situationist framework is a significant challenge, no way around it.  It's just the nature of philosophy that it's hard to say how much.

What we can say is that it very clearly isn't the whole story, which is why I think we need to pay more attention to what the whole story might be.

Given that both Plato and Aristotle believed that there such things as "natural slaves" as part of their characterological beliefs, I'm not as inclined to show them deference as most of Western Civilization has.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
That's way more Aristotle than Plato (4.00 / 1)
And reading lines or passages from the Republic out of context is a certain way to get Plato wrong.  And I'm not advocating for deference, I'm advocating for an hoest analysis of them, and of their place in the development of our culture.  

Without Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, we don't have skepticism and empiricism today.  Rationalism takes a big blow, too.  If you're going to chuck them out the window for repeating views universally held by their contemporaries (and in Plato's case, you have to be EXTREMELY careful about this anyway, particularly when reading the late middle and late dialogues), feel free.  


[ Parent ]
Actually Not (4.00 / 1)
Without Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, we don't have skepticism and empiricism today.  Rationalism takes a big blow, too.

The pre-Socratics--beginning with the natural philosophers--were the ones who invented all that good stuff.  We only have fragments of their work, via either primary or secondary sources.  But The Liberal Temper In Greek Politics by Eric A Havelock does a masterful job of weaving the fragments together.

And reading lines or passages from the Republic out of context is a certain way to get Plato wrong.

(1) This is virtually the only option we have for the pre-Socratics, though, in'it?

(2) I read The Republic cover to cover two or three times as a teenager.  I read it the way that libertarian dweebs read Atlas Shrugged.  My difficulty wasn't taking it out of context--it was struggling to get outside of its compelling fantasy well enough to start to see its holes.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I'm plenty familiar with the pre-socratics to the extent that one can be (4.00 / 1)
And reading something like Diogenes Laeterius makes it clear enough that those things were systematized and coherently taught by Plato and Aristotle in a way that wouldn't have otherwise happened.  Irrespective, those ideas would not have been transmitted to 12th century Arabs or 15th century Europeans had the works of Aristotle and Plato never been written.  

Large swathes of the Republic are tongue-in-cheek at best.  The analogy of the city to the soul makes it debatable that it was intended as a theory of government at all.  


[ Parent ]
True (4.00 / 1)
The pre-Socratic texts didn't survive very well, so Plato and Aristotle played a vital transmission role.  But without the pre-Socratics before them, there'd have been nothing to transmit.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Also true (4.00 / 1)
Which goes back to my original point--knowledge is about standing on the shoulders of giants and all.  Had there been no classical mechanics, there would have been no way to formulate quantum mechanics.  Without Kepler, there's no Newton, etc.  

[ Parent ]
On the other hand.... (4.00 / 1)
Mmm.... The Eurocentrism here, for want of a better word, is almost palpable. I feel as though I should put in a word for our ancient Asian colleagues, preaching to the choir though I might be.

Somehow, even without the Pre-Socratics, I think we'd have done okay, although we'd probably have had to rely on the Arabs, or somebody just as strategically placed, learning Sanskrit, Pali or Chinese. Sometimes I find myself thinking what if Marco Polo had brought back scrolls instead of noodles? :-)


[ Parent ]
Well, It's Hard To Say (0.00 / 0)
For example--not that it's the same thing, but it's indicative of something--Both the Chinese and the Indians invented the fundamentals of calculus, but neither of them had the cultural conditions that lead to it flourishing.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Sure (0.00 / 0)
but it would have been much rougher for the serfs in Western Europe, probably.  And Arab culture would have been way different.  I never thought it made much sense to not consider Arabs part of 'The West', anyway--just look at the overlap between the territory of the 12th century Caliphate and the Roman Empire around the time of Marcus Aurelius.  

[ Parent ]
The slough of ethics (4.00 / 3)
This is why civilizations are difficult to create, difficult to hold on to once they're created, and far too easy to destroy. The key to an understanding of how to do better than we've done is very definitely to be looked at in the collective, not in the individual, where we've so far done most of our looking. The individual may very well be the embodiment and the transmitter of most of what's important about the collective, but if you want to look at the link between means and ends, between anecdotal and statistical insights, it's just not there yet. It absolutely, positively is like trying to find where the insights of quantum mechanics and those of general relativity intersect.

Paul, you're one of the best writers on this subject that I know, and although you seem to be doing it off the cuff in these diaries, I know very well that you've spent many years thinking about all of it. I do wish you'd do a book, but in a way, I suppose that you are doing one -- a very big one. (It would have to be a very big one, wouldn't it? An entire shelf or range of shelves, maybe, with its own classification number in the stacks. Sorry, but once a librarian, always a librarian, I guess.)

Well, as an interested bystander, I'm glad to tag along. I often wish, though, that our social scientists and philosophers would firm up their focus a little bit and help us out. I've already given up on our politicians and so-called statesmen. I think maybe Bob Dylan said it best (The poets never fails us, even when just about everyone else does.)

And Ezra Pound and T.S. Eliot
Fighting in the captain's tower
While calypso singers laugh at them
And fishermen hold flowers


Its been awhile (4.00 / 2)
since I posted here.

There is an interesting position commonly associated with virtue ethics that is committed to the explanatory power of robust stable behavioral dispositions.  This position is at risk of simply being disconfirmed by lots of results from cog sci and experimental psych.  It is at risk because it offers a general explanatory framework for human behavior.  

But to think that this presents a significant problem for virtue ethics is to express historical ignorance and probably some extreme conceptual confusion.

First to the conceptual confusion.  Ethics is the study of how people ought to behave, live, feel, etc, not how they in fact do.  Information about how people in fact behave is tremendously useful to ethics.  Information about how people could possibly behave is too.  But that is not what ethicists study.  If they did study that then most ethicists would be wildly undertrained, since most ethicists have PhDs in philosophy.  And as someone who has one let me tell you that it is does not bring with much knowledge of how to do experimental psychology or sociological research.  Ethicists study how people ought to behave.  The result that most people do not exemplify virtues is not strictly speaking even relevant to a theory which says people ought to act as the virtuous person does (or that the happy life is the virtuous life), anymore than the fact that many people are unkind means it is false that people ought to be kind.  It would be relevant to find out that it is not possible for anyone, or even most people, to act virtuously.  But the situationist critique does not show this.  Gilbert Harman, who kind of got this critique rolling, focused on the Milgram experiments.  Most people 'shocked' the victim to the point where the shocks would have been fatal, but 40% did not.  One person stopped well before, despite being told to continue multiple times.  The Milgram experiments don't show that robust character traits are impossible.  They, along with other studies of this sort give really powerful evidence that robust character traits, especially of the kind that virtue ethicists recommend are at best very rare.  This is an extremely interesting result, but unless the impossibility claim can be proven it is not clear that it is even the kind of result that is relevant to the truth of 'You ought to act as the virtuous person would'.  Again ethical theories are not in the business of explaining how most people think and behave.  As an ethicist let me assure you that we are not qualified to do that job.

The conceptual claim is relatively straightforward and probably boring to most people.  The historical claim is perhaps more interesting.  I don't want to ascribe ignorance of the classical literature to Nadelhoffer.  When writing for non-philosophical audiences you don't go into the weeds, because it bores people who don't do this for a living.  But he seems to represent the response that 'the classical authors never said virtues were common' as though it were an open question.  For the most part it is not.  Two of the three major sources for virtue ethics are Plato and the Stoics.  Both are absolutely crystal clear that a virtuous person is rare.  For example Plato accepts the 'Unity of the Virtues' principle, which says that if someone has one virtue she must have them all.  This is because to be virtuous requires knowledge of the form of the Good, meaning you have to know what makes all good things good.  In the Republic he says explicitly that to gain this knowledge requires either divine grace or a life long regimen of study, and also that most people are constitutionally incapable of gaining this knowledge.  Again none of this is in doubt.  Similar things can be said about the difficulty of becoming a Stoic sage.

It might be true that Aristotle's virtue theory included a commitment to the kind of empirical psychology that contemporary psychology has shown to be false, but I doubt that.  I think it is clear that he believed human virtue was more common than Plato or the Stoics thought it was, but given the cognitive conditions he places on virtue (particularly in book vi of the nichomachean ethics) it is very likely that he thought virtue was rare as well.  But that means the result is that two of the three major sources of contemporary virtue ethics are uncontroversially committed to virtue being rare, and it is possible that the third is as well.  Why did people like Harman and Doris treat these experimental results as problems for the ethical theory derived from these sources?  Well neither Harman nor Doris is or even claims to be a historian of ethics or an expert in Ancient Greek Philosophy.  My guess is that they were responding to what many people were saying about virtue ethics in the 1980's.  Many people were crediting virtue ethics with a more plausible account of human psychology than could be found in either traditional utilitarianism or Kantianism.  So they had a point to make.  But it is the indictment of a psychological theory that someone people in the 20th century thought was suggested by virtue ethics, not a refutation of virtue ethics itself nor even of the view of human psychology that was held by the people who first developed virtue ethics.

I want to stress that the work being done by experimental psychologists is very valuable.  I also want to stress that the position they are in the process of refuting is an interesting position that many people have held.  But I think people should be a bit more careful in picking their targets.

P.S.  Accurately reporting what a person wrote down is not showing them deference.  Plato and Aristotle both endorsed noxious moral claims.  This they have in common with most major thinkers in the history of ethics.  You aren't supposed to show them deference, you are supposed to consider their arguments.  They weren't prophets, they were philosophers. (also scientists, mathematicians, teachers, etc.  But not prophets)


Sophie's Choice (0.00 / 0)
It's not that thinking about how people ought to behave is without value, but I find normative discourse about ethics hard to swallow in the absence of at least quasi-empirical evidence of how people actually do behave, and why they don't always behave as expected. Virtue may be its own reward, but when you try it grasp it, it proves to be a very slippery substance indeed.

[ Parent ]
This Is A Good Articulation Of The FIrst Response, As I Read It (4.00 / 2)
And since I was once a philosophy undergrad, I have some sympathy with it, in terms of understanding philosophical positions and the work of philosophers.

To make a long story short, I'm not arguing here that virtue ethics is simply wrong.  I think that should be clear.  But I think it faces greater problems than you realize, and I think that philosophical practice tends to shield philosophers from fully realizing the depth of the challenge it presents.

The problem is not that it has no applicability.  It surely does.  The problem is whether it is an account that is big enough to actually encompass the whole of human (and--why not?--para-human) ethics.  And here is where I think it clearly fails.

Rather than defending the tradition, I'd like to see philosophers grapple with how to reconceptualize, ala quantum mechanics and relativity, so that the traditional arguments and ideas still work pretty much as they did before as a special case of a more general theory.

p.s.  One may not intend to show deference. And yet, the very act of studying does so, inevitably, at least without a constant struggle to the contrary.  And even that can be debated.  We seem to always be fooling ourselves that we stand outside of that which we discuss, but in truth we are always inside of it.  (Is that James or Wittgenstein? Or pre-Socratic?)

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Mathematics (0.00 / 0)
Rather than defending the tradition, I'd like to see philosophers grapple with how to reconceptualize, ala quantum mechanics and relativity, so that the traditional arguments and ideas still work pretty much as they did before as a special case of a more general theory.

As I understand the development of statistical quantum mechanics (not sure about relativity) some of the major "breakthroughs" were driven by the mathematics of expanding classical mechanics to particles of vanishingly small volumes, among other theoretical concerns. More precisely, mathematics provided a more suitable language with which to describe the first inklings of quantum mechanics.

Is there a mathematical way to talk about philosophy? If so, that may be the place to push toward a kind of statistical morality, or quantum politics - which ever terms one might coin.

If not mathematics - How are new theories developed?


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Mathematizing Philosophy??? (0.00 / 0)
That's been tried a number of times, always with interesting results, but never the sorts of ultimate answers people had been hoping for.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Isn't that what Asimov's Foundation series was about? (0.00 / 0)
Who is Hari Seldon?

To mix literary catch-phrases.

My point was to underscore the functional relationship of mathematics to theoretical, experimental, and applied physics and physical chemistry. The value of mathematics in this relationship was that it allowed theoretical "solutions" to the issues raised by the emerging quantum concepts to be investigated. Mathematics may, or may not, serve a similar purpose for philosophy. Any other language that can provide the means to investigate "theoretical politics" may be useful in this regard.

Game theory seems to hit all of these bases, but look what happened when those were applied to financial markets.  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Depends (0.00 / 0)
So most philosophers (in the analytic or anglophone tradition) use some formal logic in their work, and I can imagine someone calling that a mathematical way to do philosophy.  This kind of formal approach works better in some areas than others.  In the area of epistemology formal methods seem to be advancing the field quite a bit.  At the higher levels philosophy of logic classes are almost always crosslisted as mathematics courses.

In areas like ethics attempts at formalization usually result in theories that are insufficiently attentive to important details, to what some people like to call the fine grained texture of ethical life (utilitarianism is the best example of this.  It is an ethical theory that, if correct, would simply reduce ethical problem solving to a very simple series of calculations.  But almost everyone agrees that it is only so amenable to formal expression because it adopts an overly simplistic account of what is and is not good).  There  is some good work in ethics that incorporates mathematics and formal logic, but it is usually only done on a superficial level.  The real meat of these views is presented the way it always has been.  Ethics is firmly a humanistic discipline, in a way that some sub-disciplines of philosophy are not.  I for one have never seen any reason to think that more math in the humanities would make the humanities any better at what they do (although more mathematical and scientific literacy in the humanities would be a great thing).  I don't want to suggest that there is any really good reason why math can't contribute more in ethics, but only that it hasn't done much so far and the profession doesn't seem to be moving in that direction.


[ Parent ]
Wasn't really positing more mathematics in the humanities (0.00 / 0)
as my reply to Paul mentions. Although that is one way to go.

I find this comment interesting:

It is an ethical theory that, if correct, would simply reduce ethical problem solving to a very simple series of calculations.

Much the same way that mechanistic molecular biochemistry has a way of reducing life to series of catalyzed chemical reactions. If ethical decisions are based upon neural function and neural functions are the result of catalyzed (and regulated) chemical reactions, how is this different than a series of calculations? If ethics is not ultimately based in the biological and anatomical (and by extension cultural) structures of humans, upon what is it based?



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
I am not sure I understand what you mean (0.00 / 0)
Primarily because I almost never understand what people mean by 'based on'.  In this case I don't know what you are asking when you ask ' If ethics is not ultimately based in the biological and anatomical (and by extension cultural) structures of humans, upon what is it based?'

To explain the quoted section, Utilitarianism is committed to the view that the right action in any given circumstance is the action that would, if you performed it, lead to a higher level of net pleasure than any other action you could perform in that circumstance.  Utilitarianism, at least in the classical simple varieties, reduces ethical decision making to a set of easy calculations because the idea is that you could just add up all the pleasure and all the pain (with some arbitrarily assigned unit of measure) that results from an action and compare that to the sum you get from other actions.

Does that mean that, if utilitarianism is correct, ethics is based on biological and anatomical structures of humans?  Again I am not sure what the 'based on' relation is, but I guess the answer is yes.  After all pleasure and pain are just supposed to states of mind, and so in all likelihood brain states.  While this isn't as easy to show for other more sophisticated ethical theories it is by now the case that the overwhelming number of professional philosophers are naturalists, in that they only believe in the kinds of objects posited by the natural sciences.  If that kind of ontological commitment is what you were wondering about, basically any ethical theory is going to be amenable to that.


[ Parent ]
Based upon = the result of (0.00 / 0)
in this case.

Let me phrase the question differently.

Why shouldn't human ethics be reducible to a (complex) set of calculations?

If the beautiful mind of Stephan Hawking can use mathematics to explain the irrelevance of "God", calculating human morality seems a small task.

What makes us think we are so special that human behavior is beyond the reach of mathematical theories, while we claim to explain the existence of the entire Universe with the same mathematics? If chemicals can alter entire ecosystems, why shouldn't chemicals be able to change human "nature"?


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Given that definition (4.00 / 1)
Sure ethical decisions can be the result of neural processes.  In fact ethical decisions probably just are neural processes.  There is this guy Jonathan Dancy who takes himself to have arguments which demonstrate that no ethical theory can be reduced to rules or algorithms of any sort.  I don't accept anything so extreme as that.  I just doubt that ethical understand could be helpfully or fruitfully expressed mathematically for the same reason that I don't think it is good to give directions to my house that involve reference to longitude and latitude.  The everyday expressions we have seem fully capable of presenting the information and manage to do so in a way available to any competent user of English.  But for the mathematical inclined I see no barrier to figuring out some equations that are isomorphic to good ethical theories.

As for human nature I have to plead ignorance.  Philosophers are not equipped to really investigate what human nature is.  That is a task for biologists, psychologists, sociologists, etc.  What we do is preserve systems of thought that suggest different ways to approach that question.  I often think of philosophers as having the primary function of attempting to preserve and explain very different ways of looking at the world than is dominant at present, just in case the present way of looking at things turns out to be a dead end.


[ Parent ]
This All Makes A Great Deal of Sense To Me (0.00 / 0)
I love math & I love many of the different attempts to mathematize different things that seem rather too illusive to treat that way.  But I don't take all of them that seriously.  Some, I think, are obviously fanciful, and I enjoy them precisely as fictions, somewhat akin to Borges, for example.  Others, as you say, would never be very practical, even all the bugs could be worked out.  

One thread I never pursued as far as I'd have liked--and it's now rather muddled in my memory--was the scholastic philosophers who I believe conceived of defining virtues in terms of integrals.  If you've got any idea what I'm talking about & could point me to reference, I'd appreciate at.  It seems a likely inspiration for Descartes original purpose in developing analytical geometry.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
We approach this issue from diffrent perspectives (0.00 / 0)
When you say this:

I don't think it is good to give directions to my house that involve reference to longitude and latitude.

I immediately think of a GPS and certain smart phone apps - or even so mundane a concept as a search engine - that might actually render the longitude & latitude a valuable piece of data.

Then I wonder what might result from applying such radical reconceptualization of what is relevant and important to the field of ethics. One of the trickier aspects of being actively engaged in an experimental science is that one needs to be reconsider basic paradigms as a matter of course.

What are the biological bases of ethics and morality?

I admit that I am impertinent, but I do not intend to be disrespectful.

 

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Yup! (0.00 / 0)
I thought of that, too.

But I chose to go with the deeper point that I think still has validity:  just because you can give a more scientifically precise explanation doesn't necessarily mean it will be useful. For thousands of years, that sort of info wouldn't have been useful, and even now it's only useful with technology that one might or might not have.  "Turn left at the big red barn with a crooked basketball hoop" is an instruction anyone can use.

As a Jamesian pluralist, it makes perfect sense to me to accept that different purposes will render different approaches more or less appropriate.  Just which ones may well change as technologies change--among other factors. But the principle of pluralism will remain in effect.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I have a slightly different take ... (4.00 / 2)
Not in contradiction to anything you are saying.

I'm still staring at that phone booth.  We are generally so stuck in believing that people are how they are, that our hopes are diminished, that nothing major can happen, and we shape our politics accordingly.

But if something as small as a dime can make a significant difference, then it sets me thinking (without conclusions).  Are there ways the progressive community could plant some dimes?  What is the threshold for change?

Could we start demanding more?

For the wheel's still in spin And there's no tellin' who That it's namin'. -- Dylan


The social engineer speaks ;-) (N/T) (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
That's Part Of The Equation, To Be Sure (4.00 / 2)
There's a reason some folks are always stealing dimes, even when it's not really worth their while in a strictly rational sense.  And there's an equally good reason for sprinkling them around.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Balancing Dimes (0.00 / 0)
I've never really read the philosophers much and I'm not sure how they defined virtue ethics.  However, I know when I find money I tend to feel a bit guilty.  I know I didn't actually steal anything, but it feels like that.  So I can easily see how one might feel compelled to give back to the world what was taken.  Isn't that virtue ethics?  Or am I adding in modern complexity where the philosophers did not?

Virtue Ethics (4.00 / 1)
Is ethics defined in terms of personal virtue as an enduring character trait, which can be cultivated over time--but which often is assumed to have a ocnsiderable inborn component.  In Kegan's typology, this belongs at Level Two--durable categories.

OTOH, what you're talking about here is something else. I don't about the guilt part necessarily (you could just as well feel fortunate and want to share that), but I think that the deeper impulse toward reciprocity is probably very basic to our kind.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Ah (0.00 / 0)
I'm temped to just say "well that's dumb".  I guess you've got to get through the stages in order.

[ Parent ]
Well, There's Nothing Wrong With Level Two Stuff (0.00 / 0)
It's totally necessary as a developmental foundation.

But somewhat limited, no?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
As I said before (0.00 / 0)
I think as a factual matter this is just not what philosophers and ethicists throughout history have meant by 'virtue ethics'.  It is certainly not what current theorists in the area mean by it.  Contemporary virtue ethics might be committed to the view that we ought to try to develop those durable character traits, but it is not committed to the view either that this is likely to happen nor to the idea that any one is born with those traits or with proto versions of those traits.

I would suggest Roger Crisp's anthology 'Virtue Ethics' or Rosalind Hursthouse's book 'On Virtue Ethics' or the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy article on the topic if you want to get a better idea of what virtue ethics, considered as a philosophical theory of ethics is.  

Now Kegan is a psychologist, not a philosopher, and psychologists are of course allowed to use the term 'virtue ethics' however they like, as long as people realize that is a discipline specific use.  These discipline specific meanings do lead to confusion though, as the discussion on this thread shows.


[ Parent ]
I'm Not Sure (0.00 / 0)
How much we disagree & how much is simply (a) my too-hasty description in terms outside the discipline, and (b) my lumping together of philosophical positions per se with broader cultural tendencies that tend to play off of them. (Philosophers may reject assumptions re heritability of tendencies toward moral superiority, but their work still gets embedded in such discourse nonetheless, and I'm most concerned with all of how philosophy informs our world--including, alas, the mis-informing and the unintentional as well as what philosophers are trying to do.)

Most particularly, regarding (a) it's not Kegan who talks of virtue ethics this way, it's me using his constructs to talk about what I see described in this very article (by Nadelhoffer), and which I recall from reading folks like Alasdair MacIntyre--and, yes, when I was very young and foolish, Aristotle, too.  (I first got the itch to write something titled "Against Virtue" from his book "After Virtue", in case you didn't guess.  It took a bit longer than I expected.)

And yes, as far as developments since the 70s, pretty much guilty as charged.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I won't pretend to understand (4.00 / 2)
I won't pretend to understand the intricacies of these Greek philosophers or others from elsewhere. My historical awareness begins more or less at the dawn of the Viking Age in the 8th century and is sadly limited to European intellectual traditions, with a smattering, and only just, of some elements of some philosophical perspectives of some peoples indigenous to North America based on extensive readings and conversations.

But I am comfortable siding with Rosenberg here as well as a major thrust of evolutionary psychology and cognitive sciences (that fraud at Harvard notwithstanding).

1. The notion that ethics, or the presence/absence of virtue, is primarily a question of individual character is to me obviously lacking as an explanation of behavior. I am tempted to say "obviously stupid" but that would be impolitic. Maybe it gives us some kind of scorecard to judge individuals in particular cases, if that is our purpose, but it tells us next to nothing about the origins of what is labeled virtue, how it functions, how it is changed, etc. Seems to me, in terms of how Rosenberg has framed the discussion, only social or environmental factors can rise to the level of explaining such phenomena.

2. But speaking of empirical evidence, there is a large and growing body of research that anchors moral decision-making (aka virtue) in basic cognitive structures as the residue of evolutionary processes. The evidence is far from overwhelming, to be sure, but the evidence that I am aware of, and to be honest have selected to attend to, is that moral systems operate as something akin to mental modules a la the UG account of the language faculty as developed in Chomskyan linguistics. This is not to offer an exclusively internalist or determinist explanation. Nor is it to make a claim that humans are "innately good" or, for that matter, "innately bad". But it is to suggest that moral decision making in the real world is influenced to some, potentially to a significant, degree by heuristics hardwired into our brains at the species - not the individual - level. Now, how these systems are actuated and how the balance between "selfishness" and violence, etc. vs. "altruism" and cooperation play out in daily life depends crucially on environments, especially social environments, that is, the nature and design of civilization.

I am definitely no more than an educated and interested amateur on these scientific questions, but the basic model strikes me as highly likely correct, at least in its main contours. And one of the ideological or political advantages, one noted by Chomsky in fact, is that such an account, in which hardwired human nature(s) interact with  environment and society with respect to ethical behaviors, provides a ready defense against the amorality implicit on entirely externalist accounts as well as entirely individualistic accounts. The alternative is that what is "right" is what those with the might say it is.

This account also helps to explain the persistence of religious traditions, for both good and ill, in that they are essentially examples of the Baldwin Effect, driving behavior non-deterministically, by casting the long shadows of the future on the present. This is essentially Dennett's evolutionary explanation of religions.

This type of diary is one of the reasons I so enjoy OL compared to other lefty sites: The big issues and debates are not sidelined in favor of an exclusive focus on the end of our noses. And there is at least some willingness to give people space to be wrong, sometimes fantastically so.

Did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts? Hot ashes for trees? Hot air for a cool breeze? And cold comfort for change?


I Probably Might Quibble A Good BIt On Details (4.00 / 1)
But I think we're both definitely in the same ballpark, and even attending to the same game.

I further believe that since humans evolved in small nomadic and semi-nomadic groups, most of our "civilized" history has been lived in an environment that's at odds with our basic nature in a variety of different ways--even though that nature is itself somewhat fluid and inherently oriented toward adaptation.

The most important thing for me is that we figure out the right questions to be asking ourselves, because we only rarely find (or, at least recognize) answers to questions we are already asking.

Which is why "Why?" and "How?" always seem to be such good places to start.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Chomsky and Evolutionary Psychology (4.00 / 1)
Ironically, though Chomsky is apposed to evolutionary psychology.  I've heard this multiple times and a quick google give us:

When I interviewed Chomsky for The Undiscovered Mind, he disparaged evolutionary psychology as "a philosophy of mind with a little bit of science thrown in." He suggested that the field is not really scientific, because it can account for every possible fact. "You find that people cooperate, you say, 'Yeah, that contributes to their genes' perpetuating.' You find that they fight, you say, 'Sure, that's obvious, because it means that their genes perpetuate and not somebody else's. In fact, just about anything you find, you can make up some story for it."


[ Parent ]
There's Definitely A Dominant Strain of Sloppiness (4.00 / 1)
That gives the field a bad name.  But there are also folks who are doing much better and more rigorous work.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I was actually insulting Chomsky. (0.00 / 0)
Well, maybe not insulting, but my critique was more directed at him than the evolutionary psychologists.

.

.

[Damn spell checker: just because "apposed" is a real word, doesn't mean it should let it go unchallenged!  Some of us need more help!]


[ Parent ]
Ah, Well, (0.00 / 0)
The EP crowd is a much riper target for cogent off-the-cuff critiques than Chomsky is. He's obviously over-generalizing here, yet at the same time, he's right about how their work is all-too-commonly misused.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Darwin's Dangerous Idea (0.00 / 0)
I first learned of Chomsky's dissatisfaction with evolution when I learned he was somewhat involved in Darwin's Dangerous Idea.  Now I don't want to get into critiquing a book I haven't read, only skimmed through once at the bookstore and read a handful of reviews, but it certainly didn't make a good impression on me.  It seemed like the author was simply strawmanning evolution and scientists who research it.

And now I've come to learn that Chomsky outright disbelieves that evolution can explain human hardwiring for language.  That is getting into nutty territory, in my opinion.

I might be wrong, but it is my impression that Chomsky associates evolution with materialism, completely rejects social evolution, emotionally rejects evolution itself and barely supports the idea intellectually.  It reminds me of Einstein and quantum mechanics.


[ Parent ]
Well, You Got Me There (0.00 / 0)
You know a lot more about this than I do.  I'm inherently skeptical of Cartesian approaches to anything--which Chomsky's approach to language most enthusiastically is--so I've always had considerable reservations about his non-political work.  Even if he's profoundly wrong--as I believe all Cartesians are--he's still obviously a brilliant analyst (as was Descartes) and that's what really counts in the political realm he's most popularly known for.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
With all due respect (0.00 / 0)
Chomsky needs to sit in on a few biology lectures and get up-dated on the mechanisms of evolution. But, hey, I'll cut him some slack because I would probably benefit from a few linguistics seminars.  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
With all due respect (0.00 / 0)
Chomsky needs to sit in on a few biology lectures and get up-dated on the mechanisms of evolution. But, hey, I'll cut him some slack because I would probably benefit from a few linguistics seminars.  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
EP and Chomsky (0.00 / 0)
I made the association at the level of analogy: that there are morality mental modules akin to the language facility module Chomsky describes (module is obviously a metaphor in both cases). Note the without embracing EP, Chomsky also speculates that there are morality mental modules and he posits that this explains why massive violence and inducements are required to sustain societal level horrors (in part).

Also, Chomsky is a fierce critic of something other than the more careful EP research. He is first and foremost and opponent of sociobiologists, having eviscerated Skinnerian psychology and the like as far back as the 60s. SB and EP have some overlap but they are not - not - identical. And second what he objects to in the political sphere (and he clearly distinguishes his scientific and political work and claims no special expertise regarding politics, which is part of his charm) are deterministic/materialist accounts of human behavior, whether of the SB or Marxist or EP variety.

He is categorically not anti-evolution. That is just silly. He is, however, much too much of a Cartesian/Enlightenment/Anarchist to accept the strong EP claim of some EP folks that because of evolution humans must make X,Y, or Z choice. The rest of the quote is just sensible scientist talk, i.e. we don't know much about the brain/mind so making strong claims is stupid. And he is fair in critiquing the sometimes tautological and retrospective character of the work. But like he is vis-a-vis Marxism, I see no reason to throw out the entirety of EP because some do it poorly and some claims developed under its aegis are poorly reasoned or false, especially since in this case he reaches similar conclusions with respect to morality but fails to provide an explanation other than that it is a feature of the mind-brain.

Darwin's Dangerous Idea is a brilliant work I strongly recommend to anyone interested in these types of questions. It's not perfect (nothing is) but it is pretty good. It's not clear from your post what your view of Dennett's book is but if it is - as it appears - that Dennett is critiquing evolution, well, you could not be more wrong. It is a strong a defense of evolution as you will ever find. Now when he joins others into devling into his meme evolution business, he starts to lose me a little...

Rejecting Cartesian thinking is certainly fair but I think one has to actually delve into the linguistic theories to toss those. It's not enough to dislike one source of Chomsky's inspiration to toss UG to the side, in my view. On this issue I have searched far and wide and no other theory as cogently accounts for language behavior or provides answers to "Plato's problem". Pinker also takes up the mantle and runs with it pretty effectively.

Maybe as Rosenberg is a strong proponent of Lakoff who famously fell out with Chomsky as one of his graduate students plays a story in all this. In some respects they are staking out competing theories of language acquisition, but in some respects they are merely looking at different things, e.g. syntax vs. semantics, acquisition vs. use, and so on.

Did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts? Hot ashes for trees? Hot air for a cool breeze? And cold comfort for change?


[ Parent ]
Darwin's Dangerous Idea (cont) (0.00 / 0)
Perhaps I'll get the book and give it a chance.  When I first looked at it I was intrigued, but unsure.  I surfed the net on it that evening to get an idea if it would be worth it.  I found the positive reviews unimpressive and the negative reviews reasonable.

My impression is what the book gets correct is obvious, then assumes everyone gets it wrong; thus the strawman comment.

But I'll admit that many people in the real world, including supposedly smart scientists, actually buy into the "strawman" version of things.  So what I'm calling obvious might still need to be said.

Or, perhaps, they are saying something more important I haven't caught on to.  Maybe I should get the book and find out.  I certainly am interested in these types of questions.


[ Parent ]
Shit! Wrong book! (0.00 / 0)
Damn it.  Sometimes I really wish God gave a functioning memory.  I couldn't remember the title of the book so I looked it up.  Turns out I got it wrong.  

The book I'm talking about is What Darwin Got Wrong, which just came out this year.

"This highly informative and carefully argued study develops two central theses. First, there are alternatives to classical neo-Darwinian adaptationist theories that are plausible, and very possibly capture principles that are the rule rather than the exception even if the basic adaptationist account is accepted. Second, that account cannot be accepted. The two theses are sufficiently independent so that they can be evaluated separately. Whatever the outcome of intellectual engagement with this stimulating work, it is sure to be a most rewarding experience." -Noam Chomsky

Sorry for the confusion.


[ Parent ]
Thanks (0.00 / 0)
You've given me a book to follow up on. It is clearly a response to those of Dennett's perspective. He is a hardcore neo-Darwinian, as against other approaches to evolution such as from Gould. Or from what I know, Fodor.

What is interesting in the context we have been exploring is that one of the authors of the book you describe, Fodor, is the foremost proponent of the view of the modular brain. For him it is no metaphor, so to speak.

Chomsky and Fodor were colleagues for more than 20 years at MIT so I would not take Chomsky's careful recommendation as an endorsement on his part that Fodor's critique must be accepted on the merits (though he may well feel that way).

I want to clarify that it recommending Dennett I am not saying I am somehow a Dennettite. I'm just saying it is a very great and thought provoking book, as strong a defense of neo-Darwinian views as one is likely to find. It is particularly devastating against critiques of evolution more than critiques of classical Darwinian views of evolution from a "pro-evolution" perspective.

The issue at stake here, I believe based on prior knowledge, is that Dennett embraces adaptationism as a kind of backward looking reverse engineering point of view, kind of a design heuristic but without the metaphysical baggage, kind of like functional analysis in sociology. Not everyone is in tune with that, even if they accept the basic premises of evolution but find natural selection an inadequate explanation of evolutionary processes (something Darwin himself accepted, even though Dennett does not). Dennett can and should be taken as saying natural selection ("fitness") explains all, or nearly all, and not just in biology.

Did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts? Hot ashes for trees? Hot air for a cool breeze? And cold comfort for change?


[ Parent ]
Skinner & Sociobiology??? (4.00 / 1)
I had the extreme misfortune of taking a FULL year of Skinnerian psychology in college.  So don't lecture me about torture!  But for all that, it really had nothing to do with sociobiology that I can fathom.  In fact, it was the utter disconnect from biology that finally did the Skinnerians in.  

I think this is a tip-off that what's primarily being debated here is not so much the (purportedly) science-level issues, but rather their cultural linkages.

As for Chomsky vs. Lakoff, I too see their differences primarily in terms of different primary interests.  Chomsky's linguistics never seemed to have all that much to do with his politics compared with Lakoff, though I know that arguments to the contrary have been made.  Lakoff is very much a (William) Jamesian sort of thinker, which is very much the tradition I come out of.  No disembodied Cartesian minds for me, thanks.  It's a fun game when you're a teenager (more fun than Atlas Shrugged, that's for sure), but not a very realistic way to deal with grownup stuff.

At the same time, however, that doesn't mean I find the mental module construct necessarily problematic.  Quite the opposite, I find it quite sensible, particularly when integrated into evolutionary accounts, such as The Prehistory of the Mind: The Cognitive Origins of Art, Religion and Science.  But I tend to think that the most interesting things are likely to happen where different modules overlap and interact, such that they aren't explanations for what we want to know most so much as they are explanation toolkits--and only partial ones at that.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I misspoke (0.00 / 0)
The Chomskyan critique of both sociobiology and Skinner is similar but they are different; how much so depends on what one takes to be the essence of sociobiology and to be fair the best interpretation would see them counterposed but guilty, from Chomsky's perspective, of the same original sin of determinism. I spoke fast and loose and meant behaviorism, and in error here used the term sociobiology by which I meant Skinner put the "force" in the social or external conditioning as driving the response of the biological organisms. Which is pretty much the antithesis of what sociobiologists say :) My only defense is that I am an amateur. I am aware of the difference you rightly lecture me about, however.

But your correction does more to reveal your psych background than it does to disturb the argument I was making.

Chomsky's linguistics has, according to him, little to do with politics and he has always said as much. To me that is a virtue, though I and others choose to draw political implications from his account of the language faculty. And, ignoring the politics, it is a far more persuasive account of language than any other I am aware of. To me the most fundamental questions about language that any theory of language must answer is acquisition and Plato's problem. If it can't begin to answer that, it's not worth all that much.

I have no clue what you mean in this case by disembodied Cartesian mind. People do sometimes compliment me for my youthful appearance, but I assure I am no teenager and did not find Chomsky until my undergrad years (long ago) and came to him by way of anarcho-syndicalist/social ecologist roots, not linguistics.

Agree completely on your toolkits point.

Did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts? Hot ashes for trees? Hot air for a cool breeze? And cold comfort for change?


[ Parent ]
Ahhh, Virtue Ethics (0.00 / 0)
Unlike PTM above, I do not have a Philosophy PhD, but I am aiming for it (applying to graduate schools this year, actually).  So I do feel slightly obligated to provide my thoughts on this matter.

First of all, it is definitely true that the virtue ethicist can respond to these kinds of objections.  Of course, in philosophy, you can basically defend any theory from any objection--the question is, how plausible the theory is after the battle is over.  But I do think the defenses offered in the article are fairly plausible, especially the first.

But stepping back a bit, I don't really have much sympathy for virtue theory in the abstract.  Not because segregationists used "virtue" and "honor" to defend segregation (and while I get where you were going with this, the argument that "some bad people talked about virtue" does not work as a rebuttal to virtue ethics at all, so you shouldn't have implied that it does), but because there's no way to actually justify the virtues within the context of virtue ethics.  They just kind of...assume that the virtues they like are the "correct" ones.  The situationist critique has some validity, but I think this basic justification issue is much more serious.

Anyway.  There are many psychological studies that show that, while we're very likely to give situationist reasons for our bad behavior ("I only kicked the vending machine because I had a bad day"), we're also very likely to give characteristic reasons for others' bad behavior ("He kicked that vending machine--what a violent person!").  So a certain hesitation to speculate on "the content of others' characters" would seem to be wise.

And if all the virtue ethicist has to offer is that we should work to make ourselves more likely to do good deeds rather than bad deeds, then I see no reason why I can't just take that and ditch the rest of their ethical system.

As for developing an ethical theory that can accept past theories for what they do well and offer new explanations for things they don't do well...I'm working on it. >_> But that's more Kegan Level 5 stuff.  From a Kegan Level 4 perspective, utilitarianism is probably good enough.

(P.S.: Why don't philosophers spend more time reconceptualizing old theories and working them into a larger framework?  There are many reasons, but I think the biggest is that current philosophers [at least analytic philosophers] tend to think that systematic theories like virtue ethics are literally impossible--that they cannot be right and so you shouldn't even try; much less try to make a theory even bigger than them.  So they spend their time debating about minutia that nobody aside from them really cares about.  In short, I blame postmodernism.)


I Mostly Agree, But Hey! Wait A Minute! (0.00 / 0)
In particular, my pointing to NR's defense of racism wasn't meant to constitute any sort of philosophical argument, but rather to be a big, bright flashing warning sign about how readily virtue ethics can and has been abused.

As with those bloody driver's ed movies, it's not to say that "you should never use this", but rather, "you damn well better know what you're doing."  And your pointing out the selective role of the fundamental attribution error is definitely where the more refined discussion of this ought to go. So, I'm happy you've given me the chance/prodding to clarify this. (Why else would I then say there was a place for it?)

My only real problem here is WTF you blame the post-modernists for the analytical philosophers' bad behavior.  I have my problems with each, but the problems are different--particularly given Kegan's point that Level 5 post-modernism has a reconstructive as well as a deconstructive phase, which is just the place where the theory reconstruction ought to start in earnest.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Kegan (0.00 / 0)
I haven't gotten to the stage 5 chapters yet, but isn't there always a deconstructive phase when moving from one level to the next?  It is the sense that "wait, this isn't working for me" that leads to the construction of something higher and better.

Of course, as I say that I look back at my own history and don't find I deconstructed previous world views all that much.  I don't remember thinking differently, so the change was probably more natural.

But I don't think that changes the fact the deconstruction still happens.  When it happens in public, it is just more obvious.

Also, as a side note, it can be very difficult to tell if someone is thinking one level higher than you or one level lower.  In both cases, they will "miss your point".  Deconstruction can look a lot like regression.


[ Parent ]
From what I remember (0.00 / 0)
At the beginning of each stage is a denial of the stage that came before it.  Because Stage 4 is the ideological/theoretical stage, denying it means denying ideology and theory--i.e., deconstruction.  This can be contrasted to denying, say, Stage 2, which might consist in denying the self and submerging yourself wholesale into the community.

And nobody goes through the stages exactly the same, either.  Especially in today's world where Stage 4 thinking is expected, going through Stages 0-4 is likely to be much easier than making the move to Stage 5, because there's already a lot of support for it.  Maybe in a century, when there'll be a lot of cultural support for Stage 5, the deconstructive phase of postmodernism could be de-emphasized.

Another thing that should be noted is that very few people have fully adopted Stage 5 thinking--it's possible no one has.  In any case, I definitely haven't.  So that should also be kept in mind when talking about these issues.

I think Paul has talked about the point of your last paragraph re: conservatives thinking liberals are moral and social degenerates and the like.


[ Parent ]
I'd Say "Deconistruction" Is A Possibility (0.00 / 0)
And, like David says below, denial is another.  There's a lack of fit, and people will try various different ways of coping with that lack of fit. Some will simply try harder.

Square peg?  Round hole?

GRRRR!!!  ARRRRGH!!!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Fair enough (0.00 / 0)
I knew you weren't trying to make a robust philosophical case with the NR example, but still--the fact that an ethical theory can be abused isn't exactly news.

Postmodernism, particularly the infantile brand that focuses only on the deconstructive phase and denies that the reconstructive is even possible--has had a large influence on analytic philosophy.  Almost all my undergrad philosophy classes were analytic, and several times my Profs said that most current philosophers don't believe in Big Theories.  The old analytic philosophers that did believe in Big Theories and even made some of their own had their issues--very serious issues--but I at least respect their attempt to solve big questions.  The general attitude these days, at least from my limited experience, seems to be "We can't solve big questions so let's not even try."


[ Parent ]
Well, I've Been Out Of The Game A Long TIme (0.00 / 0)
So I'll have to take your word for it.

But the analyticos I encountered back in the 70s were all, "I don't know if 'whether X is an important philosophical question' is an important philosophical question."

That's already about as anti-systemic as you can get.

Hard to see how the PoMos could make it any worse than that.  A little less dry, perhaps.  But as Bruce Coburn says, "The trouble with normal is it always gets worse," so I suppose it's quite possible, even if I can't imagine how.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I think there's still an element of that (0.00 / 0)
A bunch of analyticos spend their time debating these really arcane, insanely specific points that don't really matter to anything.  So the refusal to consider whether what they're doing is truly important definitely plays a role.  I think the PoMos gave them some theoretical justification for that stance, though ("It's impossible to answer the important questions, so let's just focus on these arcane details!").

But I also get a certain impression of a backlash to that line of thought, especially among the younger philosophers.  Of course I'm not nearly experienced enough to really offer an informed position on these things.


[ Parent ]
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