Fighting smart

by: Paul Rosenberg

Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 12:00


Big Tent Democrat speaks for me:

Creative Destruction
By Big Tent Democrat    

A historic loss for the Democrats last night creates opportunities for progressives around the country. Now more than ever, the primary process should give progressive candidates chances to capture Democratic nominations around the country.

While the Beltway and The Third Way will argue that Democrats need to run moderate Republicans as their candidates in the next election, the reality is the Beltway and The Third Way can no longer get a single person elected in a Democratic (or Republican, for that matter) primary.The era of the smoke filled room is over.

Progressives can be the change they are looking for. But they need to start now. And they need to focus on Dem primaries for House seats.

As Rahm Emanuel said, a crisis is a terrible thing to waste. Progressives should not waste this one.

The logic here is both obvious and unassailable.  Sure, many of us would just love to topple Obama--even though history says this would only result in ensuring a GOP victory in 2012 (and therefore, probably another 3 conservatives on the Supreme Court for the next 30 years or more).

But unlike that fantasy, this approach is actually well within our grasp, and accords with our bottom-up philosophy, while presenting us with the perfect venue for doing issue organizing and progressive messaging at a local level, seeding the ground for post-election policy battles.

At the same time, it presents an opportunity for building local progressive media infrastruture, including, but not limited to blogs with lots of video that can combine locally-generated news and other content with stuff shared regionally and nationally. While this can and should be built as part of a local electoral strategy, it should not be institutionally tied to the candidate, but should entirely independent, and capable of being used to hold the candidate accountable once elected.

In other words, this is an opportunity just made for us to build on our strengths.

Hard?  Sure it's hard. If it were easy it would have already been done.

Paul Rosenberg :: Fighting smart

Tags: , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email

Fighting smart | 60 comments
So the strategy here (4.00 / 4)
is to run progressives in open primaries?  I think this makes sense.  The more the merrier.  This would also allow different strategies to get a test.  Progressives whose liberalism is expressed primarily on cultural issues, plus a few labor-liberal challenges too.


sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.
great strategy - (0.00 / 0)
after you developed a progressive economic strategy!  
[ Parent ]
Schadenfreude (4.00 / 5)
I may be crazy, but the person I'd most NOT want to be this morning is John Boehner. He's about to find out what part of no he didn't understand, and so are we, although I imagine we'll enjoy it more than he will.

It was interesting to watch some fellow commenters chewing on Paul in the previous thread for the supposed crime of elitism. By all means, let's not talk down to people, but how many here can stand to spend hours in serious discussion with someone who insists that the moon is made of green cheese, or that we all ought to go camp out at the bus stop, 'cause Jesus is coming for us next week? I think not many, despite their pretensions to represent the wounded pride of the working class.

There used to be such a thing as working class intellectuals; not only were they real, they really worked for a living. Nobody at the time thought them at all strange. Where do you suppose they went, and why?

Why is this the only alternative? (4.00 / 2)
how many here can stand to spend hours in serious discussion with someone who insists that the moon is made of green cheese, or that we all ought to go camp out at the bus stop, 'cause Jesus is coming for us next week?

Because I agree that there is little value in lecturing others about their ignorance.

I have faith that logic and reason are beneficial, so why should I waste my effort slamming all of those that do not share that belief? I think my time is better spent trying to use that reason and rationality to accomplish what I can. Show, don't tell.

If someone else chooses to wait for jesus at the bus-stop, I'd rather work toward building them a better transit system so that they can believe they will get to heaven more efficiently, than trying to convince them that their beliefs are inconsistent with logic and reason.  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."

[ Parent ]
Innocence is never a real alternative -- ask Pontius Pilate (4.00 / 2)
If someone else chooses to wait for jesus at the bus-stop, I'd rather work toward building them a better transit system so that they can believe they will get to heaven more efficiently, than trying to convince them that their beliefs are inconsistent with logic and reason.

As an expression of false piety, this is flawless. As a political strategy, it leaves a lot to be desired. Telling people to their face that they're wrong, or that they're stupid is rarely effective, but facts remain facts no matter how many propagandists you hire, and refusing to confront what you consider to be people's ill-founded prejudices is more patronizing in the end than telling them the truth, even if that truth isn't flattering. Whatever accusations you make against Paul's tone, it's hard to argue with his content. He certainly hasn't forgotten where he comes from, but neither does he forget where he's going.

You don't want to wait at the bus stop either, you just don't want to tell those who do why you don't. I don't see how that helps.

[ Parent ]
I don' t want to wait at the bus-stop because I don't want to GO (4.00 / 1)
to heaven. That's where I'm from and I haven't forgotten, either.

I push Paul on his tone because of his content, not in ignorance of it.

His is a message and analysis I would like to see and hear reflected on a larger scale and to a broader audience - and in my opinion his tone is something he can readjust and thereby become more synergistic with the content of his speech.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."

[ Parent ]
You mean something like the Full Court Press? (4.00 / 1)
The difference between it and what you say is the 5-points for judging whether a candidate gets primaried.

but should entirely independent, and capable of being used to hold the candidate accountable once elected.

The question is how you achieve this.  Full Court Press had some answers.  What are yours?  Can we NEVER find common ground?

For the wheel's still in spin And there's no tellin' who That it's namin'. -- Dylan

The Delicious Irony.. (4.00 / 1)
.. is Big Tent's post title. Creative destruction being a classically capitalist tenet (Schumpeter utterly rejected Keynesianism), that you would choose to use it in defining the road ahead for the progressive left is simply beautiful. As to last night, see what happens when markets are left to work? They do.
Last night, as the results were becoming known, (4.00 / 10)
I got this email from the PCCC:

"bystander"...hi, it's Adam Green and Stephanie Taylor, co-founders of the Progressive Change Campaign Committee.

Tonight was obviously not a good night. A lot of results are still coming in, but in the meantime we want to ask: What are you thinking right now?

Please tell us what you're thinking here. Seriously, we'd like to know.

-- Adam & Stephanie

That HERE took me to a web page that asked two questions:
1)  In general, what are you thinking tonight?
2)  What do you think the progressive movement should do next? As in, immediately...

My responses took the form of:  We need a 50 State/OFA - type organization that is independent of the Democratic Party apparatus.  We need a progressive-populist platform that can appeal across whatever party lines by which people want to self-identify (and that there is polling to support this).  And, we need to formulate that platform such that we can recruit across party lines, because there just aren't enough of us™ (John Emerson).

Where the &^(% is Howard Dean when we need him?

I agree that this needs to be built from the ground up and local.  There's no getting around this.  But, what would a progressive-populist candidate look like?  Where might we find them?  If we don't default, or don't want to default, to the Democratic Party's existing infrastructure we need at least a scaffold - or an outline of a scaffold - around which to organize.  We need a that we can point to.

Crowd Source (4.00 / 3)
In theory, to extrapolate a little on Paul's mention of local blogs, there are plenty of state progressive blogs (look to the right for a set of links, for starters) that could be pulled into a loose network that agrees to work together on a few key issues. One being to promote progressive worker-friendly debates and solutions at the local level. For example, identifying a common set of problems and a range of possible solutions. Another idea might be to sponsor local debates and publish interviews with local politicians (city, county, state, federal) to get local media attention for their blog(s) and ideas. Another idea might be to publish thorough articles that describe issues at greater depth than traditional media (original content and/or syndicated from other blogs).

There's nothing to stop somebody, somewhere, from coming up with a name for this sort of network and kicking it off. Indeed, it's probably happened and I'm simply ignorant. It's less a community blog like Kos or here and more a standalone blog like Digby with 1-3 regular contributors who become known locally and are physically accountable and present in their communities.

For me, the key is local visibility. If people in a town, city, state, know where to go online for honest political reporting and debate about real issues, finding and supporting progressive candidates should be fairly straight forward. Today it seems people need to find Open Left, Daily Kos, Big Tent, and all the rest. What I'm suggesting (and Paul may be suggesting) is that we make this a local dynamic whose sole purpose is to get local attention in the media and the community.

[ Parent ]
Here's my response, word for word... (4.00 / 1)
What he said: "My responses took the form of:  We need a 50 State/OFA - type organization that is independent of the Democratic Party apparatus.  We need a progressive-populist platform that can appeal across whatever party lines by which people want to self-identify (and that there is polling to support this).  And, we need to formulate that platform such that we can recruit across party lines, because there just aren't enough of us"

In other words, bring back the 50-state strategy and permanently fund it independent of the captured-by-neoliberals, Democratic party apparatus. A big-money, big-investment, long-term capital program is needed to build organization and infrastructure for a PROGRESSIVE movement (not the Democratic Party) in the United States.

Am I repeating myself? Sure. Advertising theory tells us something needs to imprint at least six times before it 'sticks' in people's brains (or at least that's what the newspaper ad sales reps used to say...).

It should be like 'Ground Hog's Day' around here until we get the 50-state-project back up and rolling.

The MSM has tagged Independents the party of swing-voting 'centrism.' If Democrats no longer represent your liberal values, show America there is still a Left by registering for another left-aligned party.

[ Parent ]
LOL (0.00 / 0)
Apparently, the links I embedded in my comment are somehow mapped to my email address.  I just got another "thank you" for responding.  As my email account fills with additional thank-yous I'll get a sense of how many folks from Open Left offered the PCCC their thoughts.

Given that it's a GMail account with quite a bit of room, I'm not too worried about quota.  Perhaps I should have offered the link that the PCCC suggested I offer, although it will only serve to recruit you to the PCCC.  If you continue to their homepage there is, I presume, an unmapped link for What are you thinking?

[ Parent ]
re: need (4.00 / 1)
My responses took the form of:  We need a 50 State/OFA - type organization that is independent of the Democratic Party apparatus.  We need a progressive-populist platform that can appeal across whatever party lines by which people want to self-identify (and that there is polling to support this).  And, we need to formulate that platform such that we can recruit across party lines, because there just aren't enough of us™ (John Emerson).

we also need a damn TV station to give us some fucking exposure

I've been waiting for years for something. I even get a russian news station (RT). If we can't start a new-one how about using an existing one? I see Free Speech TV carries "The Thom Hartmann Program, GRIT TV with Laura Flanders, Gay USA, and Democracy Now!." But it's only on dish  network; probably some premium tier/package too. Can we push that in more markets?

[ Parent ]
forgot to mention that (0.00 / 0)
I know we have msnbc but only in the primetime

rachel and keith are fine but have you tuned to msnbc in the daytime? it's pretty bad.

[ Parent ]
or we finally could focus on the economy? (4.00 / 1)
or 'first' concentrate on the economy?
(it's kind of a problem lately!)
1. Let's found a company with all the unemployed in California -(flyovercountry later)
2. Every employee of the Progressive Company becomes a shareholder with just 5$ and then we will produce everything for your daily needs -(no cars) - We will have our own food stores furniture stores and even our own banks and restaurants and we will be able to pay every one of our employees a decent salary because we only will shop at our own shops, banks and even restaurants.
(you know the trick of a succesful economy is if 'the people' produce something and then they consumate it -without defecting to the cheaper wallmart!)
3. Progressive victory!
That's actually a very good idea. (0.00 / 0)
.

"You want me to make all the roofs in Harlem white?" Mr. Paterson recalled asking Mr. Clinton inside the former president's office on 125th Street. Mr. Clinton nodded. "Don't you think Harlem has become white enough?" Mr. Paterson asked him.  
[ Parent ]
It is - (0.00 / 0)
and there are 'people' who seriously are working on this idea - but there are some who think it might never work in the US - if you just find one commenter on a so called progressive blog - who thinks it is a good idea!
[ Parent ]
Yea, big surprise there. (0.00 / 0)
Who's working on this?

"You want me to make all the roofs in Harlem white?" Mr. Paterson recalled asking Mr. Clinton inside the former president's office on 125th Street. Mr. Clinton nodded. "Don't you think Harlem has become white enough?" Mr. Paterson asked him.  
[ Parent ]
it's - (0.00 / 0)
a group of very unusual people in California and Nevada.
[ Parent ]
Is There a Website? (0.00 / 0)
Anything I can type into google to follow what they're doing?


"You want me to make all the roofs in Harlem white?" Mr. Paterson recalled asking Mr. Clinton inside the former president's office on 125th Street. Mr. Clinton nodded. "Don't you think Harlem has become white enough?" Mr. Paterson asked him.  
[ Parent ]
there will be a site - (0.00 / 0)
hopefully soon. Supposedly there are still a lot of organisational questions and as everybody agrees that It only will work if every 'worker' of this company will also be it's own reliable customer - there is still this major question: How you 'implement' this type of reliability in the US? It works pretty well in small Hilltowns in the Swiss Alpes - but in the country of the Brave and the Free'?
(especially the 'Free'?)
[ Parent ]
How deeply . . . (0.00 / 0)
have they explored credits -- that is, paying a significant portion of wages in 'company currency' redeemable at subsidiary shops?

If there were some webspace for this effort, help on concept design, planning, and start-up could be found easily -- in fact, the help would find itself.

How are you following this project? Where are you getting your information?  

"You want me to make all the roofs in Harlem white?" Mr. Paterson recalled asking Mr. Clinton inside the former president's office on 125th Street. Mr. Clinton nodded. "Don't you think Harlem has become white enough?" Mr. Paterson asked him.  

[ Parent ]
'credits' - (0.00 / 0)
is what they are talking about - or company 'cash-cards' and we interviewed the group  for a TV documentary. There seems to be just the sense that a project like that has to be really thought through - (and the need for major 'charitable' investors) - And there still is this discussion going on if one should start on a much smaller scale -(LA or SF area) - or if 'starting small' would turn it into another  'irrelevant Hippie pipe dream'...
[ Parent ]
kind of funny for BTD to deride the Third Way (0.00 / 0)
as I believe he was a Hilary backing PUMA
I Also Hear He Picked His Nose Once In 1987! (4.00 / 2)
Gots to keep the record straight!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3
[ Parent ]
I get the distinct impression you don't like me (0.00 / 0)
TD, speaking for myself only
[ Parent ]
LOL! (0.00 / 0)
I find you irritating a lot of the time, even when I agree with you.  You seem to almost strive for it.

Sorta like BTD, particularly when he went by Armando.

Speaking for myself only, of course.  (Like, who the fuck else would I be speaking for?  The Borg collective?)

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
it's gotta be generational (4.00 / 1)
stop hating your commentors, start hating conservative politicians
[ Parent ]
Good Lord! (0.00 / 0)
You're the one who's wildly misperceived my attitudes.  How'm I supposed to deal with that?  

I find you mostly annoying.

I find conservative polticians morally despicable.

If you think the former is worse than the latter, then I'm afraid there's no help for you.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
let me get inside your liverspotted head, here (0.00 / 0)
what annoys you?  is it my refusal to accept all of your premises?  is it because I don't comment in the posts that consist of 2 dozen charts?  help me help you, sir
[ Parent ]
I'm wondering about resources. (4.00 / 2)
Since a lot, if not most, of the progressive fund raising takes place within the confines of the Veal Pen, it seems to me we need to get those groups out of there. Alternatively, we'll have to create new fund raising operations well outside the VP.

I'm just thinking out loud here, as it were. A lot of seemingly disparate groups need to get together and form a common narrative, common strategy and start raising money. Without money and organization, this is all just talk.

Any constructive thoughts along these lines would be appreciated.

"More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly." -Woody Allen, My Speech to the Graduates

the PCCC? (4.00 / 1)
they're like 90% good
[ Parent ]
If PCCC (0.00 / 0)
were the center around which this could pivot, that would be fine with me, but one question.  How closely are they tied to the Democrats?  Either effectively or symbolically?  That may matter to some of whom we want to recruit.  It's not a loaded question.  I honestly don't know.
[ Parent ]
PCCC is very good. (4.00 / 1)
As much as I like PCCC, I'm not thinking in terms of finding one group to build up into a behemoth. I think it's possible that might occur of it's own accord through mergers or shifts in support out of ineffective groups into effective ones, once the progressive/liberal communities realize we're basically in a war now and that we all either stand together (within reason, of course) or we hang separately. I tend to think PCCC could gain a good deal from such movement.

Right now, I'd be very pleased if all these various groups started talking about common goals together and start working. The Veal Pen must go, one way or the other. It's killing us as a community and will effectively prevent any real movement building.... as it's intended to do.

"More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly." -Woody Allen, My Speech to the Graduates

[ Parent ]
re: pccc (0.00 / 0)
As much as I like PCCC, I'm not thinking in terms of finding one group to build up into a behemoth. I think it's possible that might occur of it's own accord through mergers or shifts in support out of ineffective groups into effective ones, once the progressive/liberal communities realize we're basically in a war now and that we all either stand together (within reason, of course) or we hang separately. I tend to think PCCC could gain a good deal from such movement.

isn't better to stick to one and not split the few resources we have? pccc sounds fine.

[ Parent ]
Agreed. (4.00 / 1)
That's what I meant by business plan and viable apparatus many threads back.  Infrastructure.  Ideas are crowd source-able, but I don't see how we'll escape at least some "bricks and mortar."
[ Parent ]
Yes. That was a good comment. (4.00 / 1)
Given the short-term immediacy, I'm thinking in terms of coalition building outside the Veal Pen. Perhaps a confab is needed to form a working consensus. At this point, I think trying to build new infrastructure from scratch is too costly in terms of time and resources.

Crowd-sourcing can very well work, methinks. But there needs to be real urgency in getting people out of the Veal Pen (or they will go down with the proverbial ship) and into the daylight. I'd really love to see existing infrastructure better used towards common goals.

My hope is that with a more concerted consensus-building effort, the bricks and mortar will follow as a natural result of organization.

MoveOn can raise a million dollars in 48-hours. But they're in the Veal Pen. Perhaps liberating orgs like that could do some real good in terms of funding races and building local orgs up into respectability. It's pretty clear to me, at least, that progressive power needs to be devolved and built up to a more local level. Any effort at infrastructure that doesn't accomplish that will very likely be too easy to co-opt by the ruling elites.

I don't see how we can afford to make that mistake again. I figure that if progressives and center-left liberals don't start building up for 2012 now, we'll all be discredited and blamed for the depression that's likely coming.


"More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly." -Woody Allen, My Speech to the Graduates

[ Parent ]
Still with the "Veal Pen"? (4.00 / 1)
The lambs who went willingly to the slaughter and those who didn't wound up in the same place.

Grayson and Perriello fared no better than the Blue Dogs.

Those who have nothing to lose should should be more circumspect about assuming motivations of and insulting those who have managed to achieve something they fear losing.


sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

[ Parent ]
Insulting? Hardly. (4.00 / 2)
It's just that "Common Purpose" is at cross-purposes vis a vis anything resembling "progressive" politics. CP exists to constrain and co-opt progressive orgs in furtherance of serving the Neo-Liberal Establishment. Those two things are not compatible and the last four years of having the public's hopes and needs thrashed beyond recognition is proof of CP's utter uselessness.

Now, those people who built up those orgs have every right to do as they please and that's precisely what they'll do, for good or ill. If they continue to attach themselves, like barnacles to a sinking ship, they will reap what they've sown for themselves and the country. If they decide otherwise, that, in my opinion, could be greatly beneficial to the Public Interest and progressive politics more generally. Or at least that's the potential.

It's not insulting to point that out. It's merely the truth as I see it.

"More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly." -Woody Allen, My Speech to the Graduates

[ Parent ]
Creative Destruction (4.00 / 4)
This is certainly the most positive approach we can take.  We absolutely need to get rid of Citizens United, though.  I'm hoping the Lame Duck congress full of pissed off losers will pass the full disclosure law.  How many of them are glad they protected their NRA rating today?
Hellooo!! (4.00 / 1)
if progressive don't start to talk A LOT about the economy - and little bit less about what we are talking about right now - WE will have to wait a very very long time for progressive victory!
(and I just saw this poor Obama dude - Men does he needs to escape to a reasonable place!)
Here's the Problem (4.00 / 2)
Our economy suffers from a consumer demand problem. Republicans and conservative Democrats, however, insist the problem is a business demand problem and push policies like business tax cuts, deregulation, and the usual Chinese menu of right wing policies that wrecked our economy. The media and permanent political class in DC follow in lock step.

They have the microphone. We don't. They have network news, TV stations, major newspapers, and newspaper chains. We have ... blogs.

As others have noted, the solution probably is working locally, person to person and person to small local groups, to surface facts, problems, and solutions. Not every voter is so dumb they can be stampeded by the GOP pushing their inner racist buttons. I'd like to think most voters are rational and want to engage to fix these problems. But the easy solutions are dominated by the powers that got us into this mess. And insist we continue auger down into a death spiral.

We need to find a way to counter this destructive pattern. Until then, it'll be near impossible to force the elites to talk rationally in public about how to fix our consumer demand problem.

[ Parent ]
I'm aware of 'the problem' - (0.00 / 0)
that's why I posted the 'good idea' -(see waay above) - but what I was really trying to say in the Helloo post - there seems to be this misconception of the folks that so called progressives are interested in everything but economic resolutions -(the good Paul being the exception) - So let's talk a bit more about 'the economy' on our... blogs? (if you are really sure it's the only thing YOU have?!)
[ Parent ]
We Have Other Stuff, Too (4.00 / 1)
Each other, for one. Righteous anger for another (e.g. how many people have to die a year before we get real universal health care?). Facts are also on our side. Same for the public as evidenced by long standing polling like the General Social Survey that shows for decades even conservatives support much/most of the welfare state. And I'd like to think we're as inventive in developing solutions as Republicans. Surely there's more stuff we have.

So we have the raw materials. The problem is how to get in front of people to engage them with facts and to enlist their help solving these problems. That's what makes a local solution -- people talking to people, many times people you know or can easily know -- the best solution. How to activate this local dynamic, that's one problem to solve.

But we'll never win the Big Media game. Instead we have to do a Kobayashi Maru and figure out how to "cheat" enough to win a no-win scenario.

[ Parent ]
Guerrilla warfare in this case begins way, way, way down-ticket. (4.00 / 5)
We must recruit true progressives to challenge in every local and state office race (judgeships, clerkships, coroner offices, school boards, etc., in which candidates interact with voters face-to-face) before the Citizens United juggernaut extends its tentacles downward.

We need to resurrect Dean's 50-state strategy, and this time include a component that provides organizational and financial support in those local races.  

Ultimately it's a twenty to forty-year project to counter right-wing hegemony. Any other time horizon is just not realistic (in my view).

[ Parent ]
Hear, Hear (4.00 / 3)
One thing Dean's 50 state strategy did was make it respectable to be a Democrat in every state in this union. Organizing locally, finding local blogs and other local media to get our message out and to engage people, that also will make it normal and respectable to talk about progressive and Democratic ideals and solutions.

Remember, 98 or 99% of Americans work for a living and often stretch to make their expenses. It's "normal" for people to think of politics in terms of their own daily lives, the lives of their families and friends, and to focus politics around their needs. A locally focussed strategy will help us get to the goal of a progressive and Democratic hegemony equal to the Republicans.

Indeed, in the ways that count, we have all the cards on our side because most everyone is not rich and not well off. And never will be (and may not want to be).

It's how we make this happen that I'd like to see discussed, mapped out, and made to happen. I assume many people want to know how and where to plug in and pitch in.

[ Parent ]
That's a legitimate question (0.00 / 0)
Here's my answer.  To carry out what you espouse, it requires an organized force -- one which doesn't yet exist.  The "We" in "We must ..." is undefined.  In that case, local efforts get lost, there is no critical mass, people are defeated "in detail" (a military term).

It's not like the left hasn't been trying what you propose for 50 years.  The practical effect is to bring enough new blood in to keep a moribund party on life support.  Look, how many of today's withered party hacks started out as fiery young radicals?

In this case, I believe that there is a basis for creating a national presence, which can THEN create a support structure for local efforts, and KEEP THEM INDEPENDENT.  Independence within the Democratic Party is the issue.

For the wheel's still in spin And there's no tellin' who That it's namin'. -- Dylan

[ Parent ]
I agree - (0.00 / 0)
with the twenty to forty-years - because we will have just by 'nature' a younger and thus more progressive group of voters - But I just don't know about these romantic ideas of succesful 'Guerrilla warfare' on the base - If you haven't noticed there is already a awesome 'base' - hundred of thousands who's idea of 'fighting smart' might differ - but they are willing to 'fight' in a contemporary way -(on marches for sanity or on blogs like Reddit!) - All what the 'oldtimers'
(wow - 5x4) -  have to do is to connect with these much 'milder politicized' groups. I promise it will be worth it!

   

[ Parent ]
2012 (4.00 / 2)
"Sure, many of us would just love to topple Obama--even though history says this would only result in ensuring a GOP victory in 2012"

Why?  Is a politician as skilled as Reagan looming on the horizon?

Not Necessary (0.00 / 0)
There have been three serious primaries launched against incumbent Dems in modern times.  All three resulted in the Dems losing the election: 1952, 1968 and 1980.  It's very difficult indeed, once you've studied this history, to realistically imagine that a serious primary would have any other result.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3
[ Parent ]
Causality is not proven (4.00 / 1)
and 3 instances in nearly 60 years don't prove diddly.

But in any event, it may not be within our power to determine whether Obama gets primaried.  The Fund WSJ article was most interesting -- the forces questioning Obama's future are not particularly of the left.

So one thing you have to take into account is that Obama may be primaried from the right of the party.  By your lights, he would be doomed.  So wouldn't it be better if there were also a challenge from the left?

Or are you worried that you might then get blamed for his demise?

For the wheel's still in spin And there's no tellin' who That it's namin'. -- Dylan

[ Parent ]
Of Course There's No Absolute Proof (0.00 / 0)
There's just a huge preponderance of the evidence.

And against it you've got what, exactly?  Quotes from a rightwing douchebag?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
??? (0.00 / 0)
Why on earth are you still debating this on blogs? What kind of serious organizing effort debates its opponents for weeks on end on the internet?

I can understand some efforts to build support via left of center webspaces, like Dixon did on the Georgia project -- but, as in his example, those efforts are in and out -- they don't stick around playing tit for tat because they're too busy actually . . . you know . . . doing what they took a break from to type about.

Is there any serious engagement on your part with this effort you keep pushing, -- which many agree is not entirely without merit -- or is this an aspirational exercise for you?

"You want me to make all the roofs in Harlem white?" Mr. Paterson recalled asking Mr. Clinton inside the former president's office on 125th Street. Mr. Clinton nodded. "Don't you think Harlem has become white enough?" Mr. Paterson asked him.  

[ Parent ]
Why does Paul devote entire diaries ... (0.00 / 0)
... and endless sideswipes in other diaries to exposing the error of my ways?

Perhaps you've only followed this casually.  The position has  been developing and clarifying, events are bringing Dump Obama into mainstream venues, and the position is gaining legitimacy.

If one's venue is blogs, this is how one organizes.

For the wheel's still in spin And there's no tellin' who That it's namin'. -- Dylan

[ Parent ]
Read Malcolm Gladwell's New Yorker Piece on Social Networks. (4.00 / 1)
You aren't organizing a damn thing worth organizing via the fucking internet.

What you just described is a pipe dream. I say that as someone with some sympathy for your position. The tragedy is, as serious as circumstances are, and given the president's grievous missteps, serious efforts needed, and would-be allies are playing I'm-smarter-than-you games on the fucking internet.

Stop arguing with Rosenberg and invest some of your blood, sweat, tears and cash into this project.

"You want me to make all the roofs in Harlem white?" Mr. Paterson recalled asking Mr. Clinton inside the former president's office on 125th Street. Mr. Clinton nodded. "Don't you think Harlem has become white enough?" Mr. Paterson asked him.  

[ Parent ]
I got what I got ... (0.00 / 0)
... and at 62 with bum knees, I got no cash.  You know nothing about my blood, sweat and tears.  I know quite a bit about my limitations.

I could point you to Progressive Independence or FDL, where things are moving along, but from your Olympian heights, I'm sure none of it would be worthy.

By the way, blogs and social networks are 2 different animals.  That's one reason why I'm not doing this on Facebook.

For the wheel's still in spin And there's no tellin' who That it's namin'. -- Dylan

[ Parent ]
I've read you at other blogs. (0.00 / 0)
That's how I know you're going around the internet typing about this.

Like I said in the other post, efforts like the one you're advocating are necessary right now. Once you dig deep into it, you may find that it's doomed to fail, or you may end up crafting a plan that convinces millions of Americans to join you and saves the republic. But the scale of it is so large, no amount of typing with sympathizers (again, like me), and certainly not opponents, is going to get you anywhere near your goal.

But best of luck. Here's to hoping I'm wrong, and you're right.


"You want me to make all the roofs in Harlem white?" Mr. Paterson recalled asking Mr. Clinton inside the former president's office on 125th Street. Mr. Clinton nodded. "Don't you think Harlem has become white enough?" Mr. Paterson asked him.  

[ Parent ]
Let me explain better ... (0.00 / 0)
... personally what I hope to accomplish.

I'm well aware of my limitations.  I have no illusions about being the one to actually create a Dump Obama campaign from scratch.  I don't have to.

I believe that Dump Obama is "in the wind."  The experience of the last couple years, the gap between Obama's practice and the needs of the base, and his failure to govern effectively, all combine to make it a likelihood.  Some of the reactions here highlight the exposed raw nerve of its potential.

What I hope to do is try to impact the framing of it on the left.  If there is a busy presidential primary season, I want the left to fully participate, not leave it to the centrists.

Thus while others are still arguing over "whether?" I am more concerned with "what character?"

I want to sow the seeds of a progressive independent/progressive Democrat alliance.  Thus I urge independents and Dems alike to stress a 3 point set of demands:  jobs (and safety net), peace, and civil liberties.  (I believe Obama's expansion of presidential powers has gotten insufficient attention.)

With Dems, I argue the merits of primarying.  With independents, I argue against their pull to sectarianism and ultra-leftism.

I see opportunity for progressives.  I can only do what I can do.


For the wheel's still in spin And there's no tellin' who That it's namin'. -- Dylan

[ Parent ]
and - (0.00 / 0)
I just don't get it Jeff - Voters already 'dumped' Obama -(and who knows if he ever will recover) - and so we just have to wait if 'progressive victory' will follow -(it doesn't look good - dude!)  - So I only can hope you have another twenty to fourty years in you!  
[ Parent ]
Your Framing Is Precisely The Problem, Dude! (4.00 / 1)
On the level of issue analysis, you & I probably agree 90-99%. And when you write:

I have no illusions about being the one to actually create a Dump Obama campaign from scratch.  I don't have to.

I believe that Dump Obama is "in the wind."  The experience of the last couple years, the gap between Obama's practice and the needs of the base, and his failure to govern effectively, all combine to make it a likelihood.

I can certainly agree with most of that.

But my point is that Obama himself is (a) personally pleasant & appealing, (b) a powerful symbol of black identity & success, and (c) more a symptom of the broader problem of neo-liberalism than the problem itself, while we have no immediately obvious alternative candidate to rally around.

Hence, the "Dump Obama" frame is a particularly bad one.  In addition to all the above, it has no positive content whatsoever, and hence will probably appeal most strongly to those who already dislike him viscerally--not the constituency you're trying to reach and rally.



"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Fighting smart | 60 comments
USER MENU

Open Left Campaigns

SEARCH

   

Advanced Search

QUICK HITS
STATE BLOGS

Home | RSS/XML Feed | Register | Contact

  © OpenLeft 2007-2010, Powered by SoapBlox

Powered by: SoapBlox