Confronting the failure of the New Deal

by: Daniel De Groot

Sat Nov 27, 2010 at 10:00


Paul Krugman in what may be his finest blog post articulates a fear I have had but been unable to properly express:


But watching the failure of policy over the past three years, I find myself believing, more and more, that this failure has deep roots - that we were in some sense doomed to go through this. Specifically, I now suspect that the kind of moderate economic policy regime Brad and I both support - a regime that by and large lets markets work, but in which the government is ready both to rein in excesses and fight slumps - is inherently unstable. It's something that can last for a generation or so, but not much longer.

By "unstable" I don't just mean Minsky-type financial instability, although that's part of it. Equally crucial are the regime's intellectual and political instability.

The failure here is not the policies themselves, but the 2nd and 3rd order intellectual and social structures that maintain sufficient social support for the policies of curtailed capitalism and the state enforcement of broad social mobility and equality.  In this sense, I say the New Deal did fail, because it failed to sustain itself much past the generation of people who lived through the crisis that made it possible.  It is getting harder to protect Social Security because with each passing year there are less people with living memory of what life was like without it.  Those people were generally immune to the propaganda, but those of us left behind lack that personal connection to seeing retired people reduced to begging and literally dying in gutters and under bridges.  

That's what we have to account for if and when we create the conditions to implement a New New Deal.  How to make the liberal consensus not only strong enough to do it, but self sustaining?

Daniel De Groot :: Confronting the failure of the New Deal
Krugman's post is quite lengthy by his standards (say, like an average Glenn Greenwald piece) and he outlines what he sees as the three main grounds of instability inherent in the post WWII Keynes/Galbraith/Samuelson economic consensus:  Intellectual, political and financial factors that led to the collapse of New Deal economics not from inherent economic failure of the model, but from the changing social awareness of various groups making the consensus vulnerable to counter-attack by the malefactors of great wealth.

My modest take is that he has the emphasis out of order, while his insights into the Intellectual and Political instability are profound (particularly the comparison of Central bankers to monks in monasteries who eventually fall to the barbarians if the knowledge they protect is not widely shared with the civilization around them), but the last one is the biggest cause:


Last but not least, the very success of central-bank-led stabilization, combined with financial deregulation - itself a by-product of the revival of free-market fundamentalism - set the stage for a crisis too big for the central bankers to handle. This is Minskyism: the long period of relative stability led to greater risk-taking, greater leverage, and, finally, a huge deleveraging shock. And Milton Friedman was wrong: in the face of a really big shock, which pushes the economy into a liquidity trap, the central bank can't prevent a depression.

One might compare this to the experience of a young binge drinker:  The first time one gets seriously drunk, the ensuing hangover teaches a strong lesson in moderation.  That lesson tends to fade over time though.  And the act of drinking itself works against the moderating effects of the last hangover.  Each drink goes down better than the last, and if you drink enough, you lose count (and the ability to count) and once that happens, you're can easily be way over the edge by the time you realize it's too late.

In economic terms we often discuss the problem of Disaster Capitalism, swooping in at moments of chaos and dismay to reorder society in ways that would never survive public scrutiny during ordinary times.  I think we need to pay more attention to Euphoria Capitalism too though.  The day Bill Clinton signed Phil Gramm's act repealing Glass-Steagall into law, November 12, 1999, the DOW had risen 20% in the past year.  When Brooksley Born left the CFTC on June 1, 1999, having failed to rein in derivatives trading, the DOW had risen over 18% in the year prior.  Similar things apply to the FBI's infamously ignored warning about "rampant mortgage fraud" in September 2004 and Krugman's many ignored warnings about the housing bubble through 2006-2008.  Meanwhile Glassman's idiotic Dow 36,000 was a best seller in 1999.  Anyone who has read Galbraith's classic "The Great Crash 1929" will see a similar litany of fools and knaves ignoring and denying the obvious impending collapse of the market until it was too late.

So yes it is difficult to stop the malefactors of wealth during crises but it has also proven hard to stop them during times of peace and prosperity.  It's not enough for a few liberal activists to see the problems if they can't find ways to wake up the broader populace to the dangers.

Right now we are faced with more immediate problems like trying to actually create a liberal political moment in which to elect enough sincere liberals to actually even just sustain the old New Deal never mind implement a grand New one.  But it isn't enough to build a new set of social programs and assume that their self-evident success and the widespread prosperity they bring will be enough to sustain them indefinitely.  

If there is a bright side here, it is that it's hard to imagine how the neofeudal dream of the right fully realized could even survive half as long as the New Deal did.  They've only been at it in a serious way since 1981 and they've already caused several serious crashes and banking crises and even nearly a new Great Depression.  While they've done a lot of work to build the echo chamber for total message domination, I have to wonder how sustainable even that stuff is if they succeed in repealing the Englightenment itself.  Their system is actually the giant ponzi scheme they project onto Social Security.  Regular ponzi schemes succeed for a time as a small part of a growing economy.  The right wing grand ponzi scheme actually shrinks the economy as it funnels wealth upward to less productive uses.  It's not what I would hope would really bring down their system, because of the suffering so many would have to endure but the utter collapse of right wing economics did work once before to create that liberal moment.  


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I look at what he is saying from an evolutionary biology (4.00 / 2)
set of ideas.

If economics is a species, and there are different members in that species, but those members are all according to one mean, then it decreases the likelihood of survival of the species when the environment changes.

The problem with moderation, in other words, is that it reduces the number of chances for any member of the species to survive to carry on the species.

I am still developing the idea, but it seems there is a lot that economics and indeed politicians can learn from the natural sciences.

When the President says "this is against the tradition" of the U.S. when discussing economic policies, he is essentially reducing the chances of the U.S. overcoming its problems. Not because he's not "liberal" or "leftist" enough, but because he reduces the number of ways that we can adapt to changed circumstances as a society.  We are only allowed to be a certain range of members of the species. That range, we hope, will be enough to survive. By leaving out other members of the range, we reduce the likelihood that our species can survive.  


dig deeper dudes - (0.00 / 0)
underneath the "deep political? roots" lie the 'deep cultural' roots of a 'Social Network' where greedy scrupelous a...holes have become heroes - and not just for some uberrich 'oligarchs' - One of my best (poor) black friend told me last week -(after I got into all of the above) - "Girl - I don't want this wave to crash - I want to ride it ON TOP! And being half German - and spending now more time in Germany than in the 'homeland' this is the frightening problem - The young American friends I have - hardly have any 'class conscious -(even if they are poor) - and the word 'austerity' -(a highly valued virtue in Germany) - means nothing to them -
So - it's a lot of fun with them -(or sometimes depressing when times are bad) - but pushing through some "policy" - or god forbid - a ''liberal" or 'social' or even a "fair policy" for the common good - That's NOT cool -(or hot!) - But perhaps I know the wrong 'American people' - but why are there so many of them?! -(and why is it so easy to find "Joyman" friends who are not joyful at all) - but they not only love the words 'social' or 'liberal' - they also know what it means!


Oh, and looking at what is being said (4.00 / 1)
regarding the neofeudal- no it can't survive. Nor can neoliberalism. Not because of any left leaning theory, but because of its own inability to adapt. It can not survive based on its own rules. Its parasitic. Meaning, when you discuss the ponzi scheme, its about the issue of demand. They keep moving the ball around, but ultimately, that's the shell game. It doesn't matter what the left wants as far as the shellgame is concerned. Demand is finite. Thus, their game as an expiration date on it. We just don't know when that tipping point is.  

In what way is it finite? What is the expiration? What counter is there to the establishment of plutucracy? (0.00 / 0)


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
There is an expiration date (4.00 / 2)
and that has everything to do with physical laws rather than economic ones. I have no doubt that economically and politically they be able to 'extend and pretend' for decades.

However, their only way out of this mess that keeps the power relations in place is growth.

But there are inherent physical limits to the amount we can grow - limits to growth is a heresy according the neoliberal order - which I believe is best understood as a religion or faith rather than a science.  


[ Parent ]
Yes, this is a battle between reason and faith (4.00 / 1)
If one believes that one has the chance for unlimited growth and demand in a world of finite resources one is not engaging in reason. One is engaging in faith. When you wash away all the cults of personality,t he partisan rancor, the ideological perspectives, etc- at base this is a battle between the reality of fininite resources versus the myth that resources are infinite.  

[ Parent ]
I guess we are speaking passed each other. (0.00 / 0)
You seem to think I am saying soemthing, which I cannot fathom.

I was talking about the limit on how long the plutocracy can govern, see my response to the original post below.

You seem to think I was saying (maybe) I was talking about the limits of profligacy, or the limits of an entire economy to absorb production, or the limits on earths ability to provide resources.

I wasn't.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Your conversation misses the point, and I am not sure how to get (0.00 / 0)
you back to the main point.  

[ Parent ]
although you seem to blame me alone, that is what I said, (0.00 / 0)
we are speaking passed each other


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
I read what you said. I just don't find it particularly relevant. (0.00 / 0)
May be it is insome way that I am not seeing, but right now, I don't see it. So far of the things you said that are most useful to me are the comments that seem to suggest you think the plutocrats are God l ike and separate from the process of finite resources somehow and those that seem to suggest that you believe there is some sort of question about whther societies fail due to lack of resources.  

[ Parent ]
you dont find it relevent that I said (0.00 / 0)
respectfully that we were talking about the same things??

Really?

In a calm manner, without suggesting your error, or my error, merely describing our predicament.

This is soemthging to ignore?

You proudly ignore that you have missed my point?

You proudly ignore that I admit that I did not repsond to what you were saying, respectfully assuming that you were right, and left the opening for further discussion.

I sometimes wonder, is hostility an easily adopted attitude of resistance focused individuals that works against success all too often.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
I am going to bow out of talking to you at this point (0.00 / 0)
I gave it an honest try. You can't seemingly related whatyou are saying to here otehr than being a moving target when asked what you mean. Then when pushed to actually explain it in concrete terms, you then continue to claim its something personal. Its not. Its just I have no idea how your comments are relevant.

[ Parent ]
yep (0.00 / 0)
"You can't seemingly related whatyou are saying"

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
A good example (0.00 / 0)
Below I asked you two direct yes or no questions. In neither case do you answer yes or no. You provide yourselves wiggle room so that each time you say "oh you didn't get my point." If you can't even answer the basic questions without being clear, its impossible to have a discussion. So, this will be the last post, because the pattern seems to be to answer whatever will allow you to start a fight, and then claim someone else is hostile because they don't accept your world view, whatever that view is.  

[ Parent ]
ok (0.00 / 0)


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
I dont understand how this addresses the limits on the establishment of a plutucracy? (0.00 / 0)


--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Your question illustrates why you believe so much in incrementalism (0.00 / 0)
Demand is finite because we live on a planet with limited resources.

That leaves neolibs/plutocrats with two choices (a) shift existing demand (which leads to unsustainable upheaval  (b) continue to try the ponzi scheme of  pretending we can actually work on an infinite growth model (the later is Obama's argument at its base- he's waiting for the next lucky break to happen for him as it did for Clinton).

Neither are sustainable on their own terms. They don't require any outside force to cause them to collapse anymore than any unstable system requires an outside counter idea to collapse an unstable system to collapse. In other words, the whole premise of partisans such as yourself is wrong. You are all ultimately part of a larger system than what you seem to realize.

The way I like to put it- you are in a car heading towards a cliff. At some point you will go over the cliff. You assume you can tweak inside the car to save the life of someone having a heart attack. But, the question is at what point does intertia take over, and the entire system goes over the cliff because intertia does not care who is in the car.

The liberal response is to save the guy having the heart attack in the car rather than worry about the fact that in terms of a system-t he entire vehicle is headed over the cliff.  They don't worry too much about whether the physics of the movement of the car will eventually make us a society that fails. We k now that other societies have fallen before us due to the law of finite resources. We live on a planet with finite resources. this is a law. Not an option thatyou get to ignore. Yet that's exactly what we do. At some point things will correct themselves whether we do so or not.  


[ Parent ]
If we are not speaking about the same thing then possibly it does not "illustrates why you believe so much in incrementalism" (0.00 / 0)
You seem to think I am saying something, which I cannot fathom.

I was talking about the limit on how long the plutocracy can govern, see my response to the original post below.

You seem to think I was saying (maybe) I was talking about the limits of profligacy, or the limits of an entire economy to absorb production, or the limits on earths ability to provide resources.

I wasn't.

on your points..

We k now that other societies have fallen before us due to the law of finite resources.

I dont "know" of this, unless to you refer to the theory about empire, esp. empire in conflict with an opposition, that the cost of militarization etc., will eventually be higher than the empires ability to allocate.

I do not think thats true anymore.

And I don't "believe so much in incrementalism" - I believe in success without sacrificing the innocent.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
You don't know that other societies failed due to a lack of resources? (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
no, I said this.. (0.00 / 0)
unless to you refer to the theory about empire, esp. empire in conflict with an opposition, that the cost of militarization etc., will eventually be higher than the empires ability to allocate.

I do not think thats true anymore.




--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
Can you answer the question I asked? (0.00 / 0)
Part of the confusion on my part about you is that you come across as an Obama type pol tryin to give yourself wiggle roomf or later rather than answering a direct question.

If I asked you does gravity exist, I would not expect you to then give a dissertation that seems to indicate you question its existence, but never directly make it clear, so you have wiggle room later to say you didn't say that.

This is a yes or no question that I asked for a reason. to get a clear idea of where you are coming from. I am not a voter, and you aren't a pol. Maybe you think you are. I don't know. But I am not going to play the role with you here. Just answer my question.

Do you k now other societies have failed due to a lack of resources or not?

Do you believe resources are finite?

These are yes or no questions.  


[ Parent ]
Follow up (4.00 / 1)
If you want to make this more relevant to the moment- across the globe right now everyone is seeking a country or set of countries that will produce enough demand to address the economic upheaval that everyone expects a decade or more for the global economy to come out of.

They want China or the US or Europe or where ever to produce the demand. If you look at Germany, it wants demand. China wants the same thing. The US - well we are even worse off because we aren't looking abroad for the demand. And yet, no one knows where its going to come from. They are playing  a shell game of hoping it will show up. That's what the EU situation, the US situation and all the rancor over China's trade policy/currency policies are about- where are we going to find demand? THe problem is- what if there isn't any? What if it can't be shifted fast enough to move the existing demand around to fool the population for a longer period of time? What then?

That's why austerity in Europe is so foolish. It kills demand even on the neo-lib own terms- its nuts. Yet that's what they are doing in order to feed the plutocrats. That's the parasitic element of the deal right now. They are looking for places to obtain money, and they are starting to feed on themselves to do it. Yet, by feeding on themselves, they are decreasing demand.  


[ Parent ]
Follow up (0.00 / 0)
If you want to make this more relevant to the moment- across the globe right now everyone is seeking a country or set of countries that will produce enough demand to address the economic upheaval that everyone expects a decade or more for the global economy to come out of.

They want China or the US or Europe or where ever to produce the demand. If you look at Germany, it wants demand. China wants the same thing. The US - well we are even worse off because we aren't looking abroad for the demand. And yet, no one knows where its going to come from. They are playing  a shell game of hoping it will show up. That's what the EU situation, the US situation and all the rancor over China's trade policy/currency policies are about- where are we going to find demand? THe problem is- what if there isn't any? What if it can't be shifted fast enough to move the existing demand around to fool the population for a longer period of time? What then?

That's why austerity in Europe is so foolish. It kills demand even on the neo-lib own terms- its nuts. Yet that's what they are doing in order to feed the plutocrats. That's the parasitic element of the deal right now. They are looking for places to obtain money, and they are starting to feed on themselves to do it. Yet, by feeding on themselves, they are decreasing demand.  


[ Parent ]
If you believe that the favellas of Rio are an example of the failure of the elites to (0.00 / 0)
make a society in their image, you might be overlooking that it is exactly what they hoped to create.

Barrios and ghettos and favellas slums are a feature, not a bug, to the elites who see all of us as surplus humans.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
You again seem to miss the point (0.00 / 0)
Its not about what they want. Its about the eventual impact of what they are doing as as system. You seem to think they are God-like beings.  

[ Parent ]
what they are doing to the system is making it more responsive to their needs (0.00 / 0)
and less to our needs, to all humanities needs, while removing ways to object or alter that system.

Their goals do not rely on approval of the great majority, the pain or anger, or even revolt from humanity.  

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
The guy in the car who is having a heart attack (0.00 / 0)
who is having the liberals have his life due to the heart attack is also creating a system within the car more responsive to his needs. There are forces that are outside of the guy in the cars control and those of the liberals who are saving his life. Neither are dealing with that issue. The reason why I don't understand your comment is again you seem to think they have some power to overcome finite resources that goes beyond common sense. You seem to give them supernatural powers. And therein lies why your comment seems more a faith in the devil than in analysis of laws of limited resources that will eventually harm them like intertia pulling a car over a cliff as well as anyone else in the car.

[ Parent ]
I give the plutocracy the power they already have, (0.00 / 0)
plus the continued powers they are accumulating.

What power, to do what, are you speaking of?

The power to rule?

The power to avoid accountability.

The power to supply themselves with opulence?

The power to ignore suffering?



--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
does anyone else understand how this links back to my original post? (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Foolish (4.00 / 1)
but not I think from their perspective.

Coercive internal devaluations are the only options they see that will allow current power relations to remain in place. They are banking on the belief that we will just suck it up and tighten our belts. Hence, Obama and the media's gibberish about 'we are all in this together'.

There was a quote on the Guardian the other day from Cowen the Irish prime minister who said that the austerity while painful in the short term none the less gave the Irish people reasons for 'hope' - since the measures were necessary to insure future 'growth'.

I wish I had a dollar for every time the word 'growth' is mentioned in the business press and cable shows recently.


[ Parent ]
Just told a friend. You present and interesting and scary thought (0.00 / 0)
That they have no choice now but to go on a suicide run and hope they somehow survive it with us in the car with them.

[ Parent ]
I am re-reading this at my leasure, but this one caught my attention (4.00 / 2)
of the right fully realized could even survive half as long as the New Deal did.

The plutocracy would be permanent. Your suggested limited nature of this overthrow of democracy, which is what it is, they have no love for democracy, ignores, that post the next 'election' - passed the point of establishing the RepubliCorp to office there would be no further free elections. Of this there is no doubt, merely argument.

As said elsewhere, the purpose of governance, once passed the establishment of the plutocracy, is the defence of the elite, without 'popular' recourse to any accountability. Add in the hundreds of thousands of mercenaries already under contract, loyal only to paycheck, and the mold is irreversible.

If Citizens United is anything, it the bald statement that the plutocrats have already established one dollar one vote, anything that counters that will not be allowed, anything that extends that will be established.

I would to comment of the remainder, and will. But first, the points you make only matter in the political spectrum that starts from left of plutocracy.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


Nice post, Daniel. (4.00 / 2)
Coming from within the discipline, Krugman hasn't necessarily assigned an emphasis, and the order in which he traces out his thesis is in the style of those who write about the history of economic thought.  It's a really familiar style to me.  And, from my read, his central concern is how the discipline got it wrong by synthesizing Keynes within the neoclassical tradition; the melding of macro with micro, if you will.  Or, using the epithet of some professionals of an heterodox persuasion, the mathematization of economics - specifically, macro-economics.  

IMO, Krugman is trying to explain how the profession got it wrong, not which of his specific instabilities carries the greatest burden.  It can be read as a synopsis of how the profession - the discipline - failed.  And, the discipline/profession is more than the sum of particular instabilities.  

I agree with you that Minsky offered a cogent warning.  And, were Hyman Minsky still alive I'd like to think that he would take no pleasure in being so stunningly correct.  Krugman has expanded on Minsky's notion of instability to point to instabilities within the discipline.  I chuckled at his,

Well, given human propensities, plus the law of diminishing disciples, it was probably inevitable that a substantial part of the economics profession would simply assume away the realities of the business cycle, because they didn't fit the models.

Diminishing disciples, indeed.  There is a herd mentality in academic disciplines, and Krugman points to one outcome of that in economics.

I read this as a kind of mea culpa in that I read an indictment in which he includes himself.  The profession has a lot of 'splanin' to do. I have yet to read DeLong's piece, but it seems to me that Krugman has started - at least - his own introspection process.  


Long Term Necessity: Systemic Blocks to Corporate Power (4.00 / 2)
Daniel, you and Krugman are right.  Below are some random thoughts about some structural changes necessary to create a more lasting economic regime that protects us all from corporate power.

In Germany, for example, workers get to vote for 1/2 of the Board of Directors of corporations.  It was imposed by Eisenhower after World War II.

Jefferson and Madison considered an anti-monopoly amendment to be part of the Bill of Rights and concluded it was not necessary because all the states had anti-monopoly laws.

We need a constitutional amendment that says corporations are not people and money is not speech.  

We need to have another amendment to the constitution that strictly limits the number of media outlets that any one corporation can own.  

We need to have laws that prevent members of Congress and members of the Cabinet from becoming lobbyists for at least five years after leaving government.

We need to have public financing of campaigns.  In the UK, there is a ban on all campaign advertising during the very short time between an election is called and people vote.  So all information is derived directly from speeches or from media.

The right to join a union should be part of the Bill of Rights.  

How about revoking a corporation's charter when the actions are so egregious that it causes severe damage to the environment, endangers too many people, or damage to the economy?


krugman is very very smart, but it's about time he noticed this (4.00 / 3)
economics frequently churns out things that are 'true' in 2010 but not in 1980 or 1950 or if you switch countries, or other things.  it's not just important to have the 'right' ideas but also to recognize that none of the economic models are complete and they all are, at best, partial descriptive models of a historical item (capitalism, for lack of a better word), not profound and complete truths about humanity.  

i wish now he would go and rewrite his piece on 'how we got here' in the new york times magazine which managed to have thousands of words and offer a history of economics without mentioning Marx.  there is a value in plurality of ideas rather than trying to replace 'there is no alternative' with 'there is an alternative and it is the only one'


I'm just glad (4.00 / 1)
to see a Serious Person who actually wonders "what went wrong and how might we prevent it happening again?  And what did I get wrong too?"  Which puts him miles ahead of his Sunday Morning Talkshow peers that I marvel that he still has a column and gets invited to make George Will look stupid as often as he does.

It's true as far as it goes to blame the current mess on the various plutocrats and malefactors who engineered the shitty policies that made it inevitable, but ultimately a successful socio-political system will have to account for the existence of sociopaths with lots of money and influence and ensure they are neutered from wrecking the system.


[ Parent ]
"If there is a bright side here, it is that it's hard to imagine how the neofeudal dream of the right fully realized could even survive half as long as the New Deal did." (4.00 / 2)
There is only one way I can imagine it so far that strikes me as possibly true - that the inequality is used to generate money which is then reinvested in new centers of global capitalism - particularly China.  It's an international redistribution through the wealthy classes, so that the global system can and will be sustained, but with specific countries dropping or moving up in the rankings.

What I don't understand is what the genius American bankers think that they can embark on this kind of practice without a) generating world war iii and iv and v; b) having to move their families to another country or c) having machine guns outside their gated community because of the level of social chaos it generates to have high inequality and low investment in the country you actually live in.

i know i'm being somewhat melodramatic, but if you think the tea party is bad, what's going to happen with a couple terrorist attacks and a generation that grows up with conditions like 9.6% unemployment.  

geniuses.


Agree- but actual unemployment is something like 20 percent (0.00 / 0)
as the new "norm" right?  

[ Parent ]
You Are Thinking The Unthinkable (4.00 / 1)
Just as the French Revolution was unthinkable.  Until it happened.

And then the elites blamed the Bavarian Illuminati for it!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
it's not just thinkable - it's already happening (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Of Course It's Already Happening (4.00 / 1)
That's just the point.  No matter what happens, certain things simply remain unthinkable to them.  So they never take account of them.

It helps, of course, if one is a 10th generation inbred imbecile.  But if not, first generation sociopathy will do just as well.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
but dr, this is already true or happening (0.00 / 0)
a) generating world war iii and iv and v;
done and done, plans for more, the goppers have war plans on top of war plans


b) having to move their families to another country or
see haliburton in dubai


c) having machine guns outside their gated community because of the level of social chaos it generates to have high inequality and low investment in the country you actually live in.
done and done, and growing, as are private "security" compaines, as are the "rights" to be armed, as are the right to shoot even just because you "feel" threatened.

--

The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky


[ Parent ]
I've been pondering (4.00 / 3)
If the neoliberal end state vision is a worldwide system of trapped nation-states with 3rd world style income distributions and vast underclasses that cannot respond to the demands of their citizens because they are subservient to a set of unaccountable global companies who flit from nation to nation in order to punish any that get out of line, and a set of billionaires who behave the same.

Where I think it breaks down is this:  The rich of the 3rd world do live in sheltered enclaves of wealth with armed guards and maybe the rich are prepared to live like that, but the comforts they enjoy all come from the first world.  Can those comforts continue to exist if the whole world looks like China or Russia?  Can the "great" cities that the rich like to visit like New York, Tokyo, Paris and London exist in actual failed 3rd world nations?  

I don't think the model is extendable to a global model, at least I hope not.


[ Parent ]
that's what it used to be...there's no reason it can't be that way again (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Sure there is (4.00 / 2)
for one thing, most of the world population is literate and has means to communicate and read history.  We just can't be kept in the dark about how the game works indefinitely.

Wages are even already going up in places like China where workers are going through processes much like western workers did in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.  Waves of strikes, and rising wages.  The neoliberals are running low on places to export the jobs if China becomes more expensive than they'd like.  

Climate change has me more worried than the prospect of a permanent neoliberal state of dystopian grinding poverty and massive inequity.  I worry greatly about a period of the latter, one which I may not live to see the end of, but not a permanent one.  These people are really good at scheming for advantage and fucking others over, but they suck at running the world.  It will go like the "permanent Republican majority" did - self-fullfilling collapse under the weight of corruption and incompetence.

A climate change world social order collapse would be so much harder to ever dig humanity out of the mud again though.  For one thing, we've largely used up all the easy to access sources of energy to run a second industrial revolution on and emerge from a new dark age.


[ Parent ]
largely agreed (4.00 / 2)
Wages are even already going up in places like China where workers are going through processes much like western workers did in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.  Waves of strikes, and rising wages.  The neoliberals are running low on places to export the jobs if China becomes more expensive than they'd like.  

Climate change has me more worried than the prospect of a permanent neoliberal state of dystopian grinding poverty and massive inequity.  I worry greatly about a period of the latter, one which I may not live to see the end of, but not a permanent one.  These people are really good at scheming for advantage and fucking others over, but they suck at running the world.  It will go like the "permanent Republican majority" did - self-fullfilling collapse under the weight of corruption and incompetence.

These are things I take faith in.

One of the greatest changes of the age we live in is how rapidly information was democratized. Even in places like China and Iran they can't keep up with the flow of online information. The inability of governments and economic elites to compartmentalize populations and their governments is going to be key to taking power back from the plutocracy. As a result, my thinking is at least, is an acceleration of social movements around the world.

I mean, the labor movement in the U.S. and Britain took decades and decades, and then the complete collapse of the global economy, to win the middle class we took for granted for most of the 20th century. In China? They're already striking and making demands. Every country is going to be a tough place for the plutocracy within 10 years, I believe, because of how much more educated the average global citizen is. And it will be largely because of the internet, and they won't be Americans.  

One of the greatest mistakes of the oligarchy, assuming they had the power to stop it I guess, was allowing a free and open internet to ever exist. I think this paradox goes straight to the idea that some things are "unthinkable" to them, like running out of places with cheap labor. Thankfully, we're confronting a bottom line, no tomorrow, profit NOW culture that won't plan two steps ahead. They're not capable of the kind of planning they would need to make in order to lock down their preferred system for a long time (up to a century). This is a good thing for us.


[ Parent ]
"permanent neoliberal state of dystopian grinding poverty and massive inequity." (0.00 / 0)
It hasn't always been neoliberal, but it has been permanent, varying in degree.  The wage increases and advances are real, but they've been largely restricted to a small portion of the population of the world.  In another words, the notion of progress in capitalism is highly debatable, but I don't think the notion of misery, when considering things globally, really is to nearly the same extent.

Consider that during post wwii to @1980 (what is seen as the BEST time for ordinary people in the 500 year history of capitalism), you had probably 80% of the world's population living in real mass poverty.  This is why I consistently advocate that progressives look at these issues globally - if only because it provides a different and more accurate lens.  

I think your points about the quality of information and lack of places to exploit aren't convincing either, though I wish they were.  The information is useful only if the political institutions account for the perspectives of the people who have it, but the subject of what we're talking about - mass immiseration and massive inequality- has existed regardless of that.  I think that what you're arguing IS going to be beneficial though, through the 2nd tier of the world's population (i.e. the middle class - maybe 10-20% just below the rich). also don't forget that africa has not 'developed' yet. so another place exists.

I agree with you, though, that within the confines of that system, things may be better than in the past.  but question of degrees, not of kind.


[ Parent ]
I Agree That This Is A Fairly Insightful Post On Krugman's Part (4.00 / 3)
But I've been poking around the Real World Economics Review blog sporadically for the last few days (mostly I've been eating & sleeping, but when I do drag myself over to the computer screen....)  and by comparison Krugman is just getting his toes wet.

He's certainly right to draw attention to Samuelson, whom genuine Keynsians (now much more "post-Keynsians" than "New Keynsians") see as never having actually understood Keynes in the first place.  And he's right more generally in the spirit of expanding Minsky's "stability is destabilizing" dialectic to the broader realms he does.

But there's at least two closely-connected things wrong here which are relatively easy to explain, beyond the more arcane stuff.  First is that Krugman is conflating "the kind of moderate economic policy regime Brad and I both support - a regime that by and large lets markets work, but in which the government is ready both to rein in excesses and fight slumps" with "The New Deal."  This is historically false.

Yes, there were some who took that lesson from the New Deal. But Krugman and DeLong are products of a much later time, which in turn resulted from a relative crippling of the lessons of the Great Depression, and the most significant successes of the New Deal.  And this brings us to the second thing Krugman is overlooking--the cumulative impact of a decades-long conservative hegemonic counter-attack, which actually began on the economic in the earliest days of the FDR Administration.  The passage of Taft-Hartley and the purging of Communists from CIO union's leadership were two of the most visible rightwing victories that undercut leftward pressure, and helped ensure a fairly consistent conservative overall drift.

This is not to say that Krugman is mistaken, so much as that he's incomplete.  It's not moderation per se that's problematic, it's this particular moderation.  There's a generalization here:  neither moderation nor extremism is necessarily a good thing. Both have their costs and benefits in general. The specific cases can and do vary wildly in terms of how the costs and benefits play out.



"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


Isn't his point that the crippling of the ideas of moderation (0.00 / 0)
as they came about from the New Deal inevitable? I mean- isn't that Minsky's point? That we become comfortable and stable,a nd then based on that , we lose sight of why we created the rules in the first place, so we lose the rules or cripple them, and subsequently human behavior being what it is, we find ourselves yet again in the places that led to the New Deal in the first place? That , in other words, the New Deal itself helps to create the cycle by now addressing the fundamental issues that leads to such crisis head on? That moderation isn't enough in this sense because he leads to the cycle we see? I am just asking as I am just now starting to understand all of this myself.

[ Parent ]
Minsky's Talking About A Self-Moderating Process (0.00 / 0)
But radicals always work against that. Therefore, the removal of radicals form the equation was something that Minsky was already assuming from the beginning.  And, indeed, based on what he observed, this is already what had happened by the mid-50s.

But it didn't have to turn out that way. It took an organized right-wing power-block to make those things happen.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I guess I don't see how this is not predictable from the model (0.00 / 0)
You can't have casino gambling with out casinos or the gamblers advocating for its existence. That's all the far right really is. Is your point that it would have taken longer withyout the rise of the far right? Are you sure that the public wouldn't have forgotten anyway?

[ Parent ]
Bored Now! (0.00 / 0)
If you assume what you set out to prove, then there's no real point to having a discussion.

Minsky was an empiricist, and I try to be one too.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
If you were an empiricist, you wouldn't have problems with people asking you questions (0.00 / 0)
For the record,  I have no idea what the answers to my questions are. That's why I asked you because you seemed to be saying you have a more advanced understanding. I think you are ideologue who doesn't like to be questioned. I can say that because well, your response to being questioned was to to lash ou at the questioner for asking you questions.  

[ Parent ]
You Use The Term "Casino Economy" (0.00 / 0)
Which pre-supposses an outcome. But the events I pointed to as most prominent--the passage of Taft-Hartley, the purge of Communists leadership from the CIO--occurred long before any such casino economy was evident, and there's a very real question if such an economy would have evolved had these things not happened.

Don't forget the Dow didn't even reach pre-1929 Crash levels until 1954--several years after the events I referred to.

Anyone who believes in the efficacy of political action damn well ought to believe it could have been much, much different.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I believe all my ideas are falsifiable. I test them to see if they are wrong. (0.00 / 0)
Not to prove them correct.

I was referencing this moment in time and whether despite what we have seen  in the US would we have ended up here anyway.

It was a real question.  The EU has had a left , including communists, have they not? So, I am comparing what  lead them to the same sorts of mistakes as us?  


[ Parent ]
Multiple Answers To Your Last Question (4.00 / 1)
One thing that surprised me is that while interviewing Dean Baker several months ago he told me that European leftists he met had absolutely no knowledge of Keynes.  Which means that once Marxism has been discredited by the fall of the Soviet Union, they had no economic framework for opposing the spread of US-spawned neoliberal ideas.

So, their problem was different than ours, but still was historically dependent on ours as well along with their own peculiar twists, which were also not etched in stone.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
How does one break the cycle? (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
The discussion continues. (0.00 / 0)
via Krugman today:

November 26, 2010
Brad DeLong
Battered but Not Beaten
My Talk for the October 29 Berkeley IRLE "New Deal or No Deal?" Conference


I read it (0.00 / 0)
It is a great essay.  I think he missed "cramdown" as one of the ways to fix the mortgage crisis in his list of policy options, but still a great effort to explain how policy makers did have a menu of things that could have prevented the suckage of today and got it wrong over and over under 2 administrations.

[ Parent ]
Krugman (0.00 / 0)
is a smart guy and good writer. But as far as I can see he shares a lot of assumptions with mainstream neoliberalism. Of course every now and then he comes to doubt some parts of orthodoxy.

A few years back he admitted that his cheerleading for so-called 'free trade' should have been more nuanced.

This seems to be another of those moments of doubt.

But he is still saying that we can 'grow ourselves' out of this mess - if we adopt the right economic policies. He is frustrated because politics seems to be blocking the rational technical solution.

I think he is wrong about this.

In my view, there are people who are far more ahead of the curve than he is. At the end of the day, he is still pretty much a mainstream economist and a mainstream democrat.


It Would Help (0.00 / 0)
If you explained what you mean by this:

But he is still saying that we can 'grow ourselves' out of this mess - if we adopt the right economic policies. He is frustrated because politics seems to be blocking the rational technical solution.

I think he is wrong about this.

As it's by no means clear.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Sorry (0.00 / 0)
what I mean is probably a lot less than meets the eye.

I am not referring to the blog post - but Krugman's general point of view expressed numerous places.

It is my sense that Krugman believes that if the correct economic policies are followed (and by that I think he means mainstream Keynesian policies) then the situation we are in is fixable - in other words, a radical rethinking of economic theory is not required (steady state economics for example).

Finally, he believes that following the correct policy prescriptions will allow us to grow our way out of this situation.

That is (part) of what I have taken away from reading Krugman - a pretty much mainstream keynesianism with a dollop of neoliberal growth and trade theory.



[ Parent ]
Okay (0.00 / 0)
I was afraid that's what you meant, because my response is "close, but no cigar."

In fact, for the most part, I share Krugman's view that Keynsian stimulus would pretty much solve most of our short-term economic crisis.  That's not where the rubber hits the road in terms of the limits of his economic vision, IMHO.

And just to make it clear, I don't see Krugman as a very good Keynesian, and I only see Keynes as part of the way out of this epistemilogical mess that economics has itself mired in.  So I'm not defending Krugman here.  I'm just saying that there really are some very simple, elementary things we could do that would make things a whole lot better in a very short time-frame.  The real problems come with:

    (1) Dealing with the pre-conditions that caused the crisis in the first place.

    (2) Dealing with the irrational opposition that's preventing us from taking effective action in the short run.

    (3) Creating new models and building policy based on them that can lead us to a truly workable global economic future, including, for example, true cost pricing that makes it profitable not to destory the ecosystems that sustain all of human civilization, including all our economies.

I believe it's absolutely vital to deal with these problems, and Krugman's limited vision prevents him from being able to deal with these--at least so far.  But I think he's absolutely right about the need for Keynsian stimulus and its efficacy.  It's just that that's the bare minimum of what we need to do in order to have a decent chance at solving the long-term problems we face.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Ok (0.00 / 0)
but reviews are mixed about the QE and its effects (I don't know if that is what you are thinking about re: stimulus) but Krugman certainly believes it is necessary to prime the pumps.

One school of thought on the left, Michael Hudson for example, is that it is another backdoor bailout.

Hudson does not disagree with the idea of a stimulus but with that particular implementation which Krugman favors.

Hudson is also leery of the China bashing going on amongst people like Krugman - we have no one to blame for the current disaster other than ourselves.


[ Parent ]
Krugman thinks it's necessary? (0.00 / 0)
I need a cite for that claim.

[ Parent ]
Yes (0.00 / 0)
he does.

He thinks stimulus is necessary, QE is the only stimulus that is possible in the current circumstances, therefore QE is necessary.

He has been very vocal in his support for Bernanke on this - just Google it.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.c...


[ Parent ]
Not sure the piece you cite, (4.00 / 1)
offer Krugman's support of QE2.

I counter with...

October 6, 2010, 4:32 pm
The Market Believes in QE2

For the moment at least. Optimism about Fed action has led both to falling long-term interest rates...[]...My guess is that the market is expecting more than the Fed will deliver. But I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

October 23, 2010, 4:08 am
How To Think About QE2 (Wonkish)

Still on the run, so no long posts. But with all the talk about further quantitative easing by the Fed - QE2, for quantitative easing, the sequel - I think it's worth sharing one way of thinking about what's on the table - and why you shouldn't be too optimistic about its effects...

November 3, 2010, 3:59 pm
QE2: Meh

Seconding Brad DeLong here.

Conventional monetary policy involves buying short-term government debt; it has no traction now because interest rates on short-term debt are near zero.

So now the Fed is buying longer-term debt - but still only 5-year debt, with a current interest rate of slightly over 1 percent. How much more effective is that likely to be?

And $600 billion really isn't a lot when you're trying to move a $15 trillion economy...

[all emphasis mine]

The piece you cite is Krugman explaining why there is nothing left in monetary policy except QE.  That does not particularly convince me of his support for that approach.  Where Krugman has been steadfast is in his defense of fiscal policy, which is a whole different animal.


[ Parent ]
Precisely! (0.00 / 0)
Thanks for doing all that legwork!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
What's Hard to Understand (0.00 / 0)
He thinks stimulus is necessary, QE is the only stimulus that is possible in the current circumstances, therefore QE is necessary.

Where are we disagreeing?

You and Paul are acting as if I am doing some hatchet job on Keynesian fiscal policy in general and Krugman in particular.



[ Parent ]
wait... (4.00 / 1)
A stimulus, as in QE2, or something else?  Not sure I've read you correctly.  Krugman would be in favor of a stimulus to raise aggregate demand.  Based on what I've read, he's ambivalent at best about QE2.

[ Parent ]
Krugman Has Been Strongest (0.00 / 0)
In condemning those who attack QE2 purely to attack any form of government action to try to help the economy.

This implies he sees some possible benefit from it, not that he's a staunch advocate.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
You're Shifting the Debate Here (0.00 / 0)
Now it's about QE2.  Now, QE2 has it's problems--and Krugman has noted them.  But he supports QE because of its stimulative potential, not for any other reason.  And he doesn't pretend it would be enough.  So now you're trying to go after him for supporting whatever he can find?

You're welcome to do that, of course.  But that wasn't the original argument.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Actually (0.00 / 0)
I am not really going after him at all.

I indicated above that he favors stimulus, QE2 is all that is politically possible and so he supports it.

I don't recall saying that he didn't have some doubts - I did say what is true - that he has supported this action by the Fed.

And he may be right!

I simply mentioned that there are other economists on the left who have a much more negative view than Krugman does about QE2.


[ Parent ]
I'm Talking About Your Original Argument (0.00 / 0)
But now it seems that you're too confused to follow your own arguments.

Sorry I asked.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I am not even a little confused (0.00 / 0)
apparently you are.

Maybe you should actually read what people say before going off.


[ Parent ]
Perfect! (0.00 / 0)
You're so confused, you have no idea what I'm talking about!

Part of the reason Krugman stays stuck where he is, I'm afraid, is that he spends so much time arguing with folks like you.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The coming age of "ressentiment." (4.00 / 2)
Julian Sanchez hit that note here.  Brad DeLong hits it again on page 24 of Battered but Not Beaten.

In one of few times I've ever seen GGreenwald speculate on Obama and his motivations he did so in his own threads yesterday.  I responded that I had a grim feeling that nothing was much being done, because they genuinely didn't know what to do.  Glenn thinks I could be correct but notes,

In Obama's case, I think he might be clinging to that vapid though tempting thought that it's the "Best and the Brightest" (in the case of financial issues: the plutocrats) who are the best and only hope for solving things - so just make sure that that they're taken care of, strong and prosperous (and he's certainly doing that) and they'll be in a position to save the rest.

Brad DeLong offers in his 4th hypothesis that he doesn't think Obama is relying on his economic advisers, at least (p. 22).  So, maybe Obama is relying on the plutocrats to save themselves, which I think they can do in the medium term, and the rest of us are going to be allowed to simply go to hell.  All the plutocrats need to accomplish that goal is just a bit more ressentiment as a general sentiment among the populace.

Obama Reminds Me (0.00 / 0)
of nothing so much as those adolescent rulers they used to have who had no idea WTF was going on, and usually were nothing more than figure-head pawns for competing powers behind the throne.

Except that now, of course, the fate of civilizations hangs in the balance.

As far as the long-term sweep of history is concerned, I'm afraid he's not functionally all that much different from Sarah Palin.  He really doesn't seem to have a clue about what a clue would even look like at this point.

Of course, in the short-term someone like Palin could cause a very sharp spike in human suffereing, but 20 years down the line or more, I really don't see Obama making a damn bit of difference with any degree of confidence at all.

Rather, it's up to us to use whatever breathing space we have to make a difference now.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
and this thread reminds me - (again!) (0.00 / 0)
that nobody seems to know WTF is going on - but's that's perfect - Isn't - at least y'all try hard to find some sense and structure in this 'nonsense' -(
Serious voice!:"Well here are "the Plutocrats" and they have their own egotistical plan and then there is US - and we don't -(or perhaps we do?) - And in reality 'the Plutocrats' are a bunch of chaotic idiots also - and they have no plan at all  and that's the problem - it's basically everybody against everybody - a lot of doors without hinges  - and even Paul (the Krugman) - who might be right with his idea of 'spending' ourselves out of the crisis - but might be completely wrong with Ireland - because sometimes there are countries which are waay beyond any ability to spent themself out of any crisis - and why is everybody always avoiding this conversation y'all once have to lead? -
You know this thing about - 'the Root' -
One day ya'll will have to talk about changing the 'culture' before you even can can think about chancing some 'policies' or 'politics' -(aren't you aware that you can't do with Americans what you can do with Europeans?) - I guess not - So I will wait for some introspection and work on my anthropological studies of this weird 'tribe' who pretends not to be a 'tribe in one sense but is a 'Konglomerat' of most entertaining tribes of contradictions.



[ Parent ]
I don't think (4.00 / 1)
Krugman advocates Ireland spending its way out of trouble.  I believe his remedy is for them to either let the banks fail or to have Ireland effectively default itself and renegotiate new terms.


[ Parent ]
that's true - (0.00 / 0)
he is for them to "either let the banks fail or to have Ireland effectively default itself"- and then some poor old Lady in Germany - who loves austerity and saved every Penny her whole live will have to pay the bill - Because what does Paul say: 'austerity is bad' - So let the Irish default and as they owe Billions to some idiotic German bankster - let these Bankster default too - and then - (and how wonderful ironious) - it will hit the only person left with money -(but only because she was stupid enogh to believe in austerity) - and Paul doesn't - but otherwise I'm 98 percent with him!

[ Parent ]
but I'm sorry - (0.00 / 0)
about another stupid and incoherent post of myself - What does a 'culture of austerity' have to do with the US? - Absolutely nothing!!

(and do you know that the US at the time of the New Deal had a real 'Communistic' party - so what happened?)


[ Parent ]
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