Cut Points In The Foreign Policy Domain: Obama's Questionable Strategy

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Nov 10, 2007 at 15:44


In my diary earlier today on Ron Paul, I noted how he fell among the 0.2% of people totally opposed to federal social welfare policies--a remarkably far-right fringe position from which to launch a campaign that even seeks to appeal to progressives distressed with the Democrats' inept and confused response to the Iraq War. While Ron Paul stands zero chance of being elected President, he is doing a bang-up job of expanding the rightwing extremist base of influence, which is what a hegemonic cultural warrior ought to be doing.  Too bad he is on the other side.

Now I want to flip to the other side, and take a look at how a much better positioned progressive candidate--Barack Obama--has managed to do the exact opposite: take a majoritarian position and cut it to pieces.  He, too, will probably not be President.  But unlike Paul, he is doing virtually nothing to build influence for ideological base.  In fact, he's doing the exact opposite: his funciton is to divide and sometimes even demonize that base.

My points of reference here are how Obama himself has characterized the divisions in foreign policy as he sees them, and how he responds.

In a MyDD diary last December, The Two Obamas and Me, Part One, Chris contrasted the principle-driven Obama who first inspired tremendous netroots support with the compromise-driven Obama were seen since, who often seems intent on demonizing the very people who helped get him his start. Chris cited this example:

In town-hall meetings, when those who opposed the war get shrill, Obama makes a point of noting that while he, too, opposed the war, he's "not one of those people who cynically believes Bush went in only for the oil."

Chis followed up:

Did anyone with any power every say that? Did any leading Democrats ever say that? Did any progressive or liberal of any public stature ever say that? If they did, I'd love to see the quote.

More recently, on November 2nd, in a diary, Establishment Revolution?, Chris cited this passage from a Sunday's New York Times magazine article:

In 1981, Obama arrived at Columbia University, where he majored in international relations. He wrote his senior thesis on the North-South debate on trade then raging as part of the demand for a "new international economic order." But he says that he was never much of a lefty. Obama offers himself as the representative of a new generation, free of the dogmas that still burden the Democratic Party. "The Democrats have been stuck in the arguments of Vietnam," he said to me on the campaign plane, "which means that either you're a Scoop Jackson Democrat or you're a Tom Hayden Democrat and you're suspicious of any military action. And that's just not my framework."

The cut points that Obama makes are, I will argue, fundamentally misguided and destructive.  Even if the dividions were accurate, the only reason to focus on such divisions in the first place should be to heal them, not simply highlight them.  Besides, Ron Paul's example clearly shows that the most effective strategy is not even to talk about divisions.  But I don't want to simply be negative.  I want to illuminate what the real cut points are, and why it makes so much more sense to focus on them realistically in forming our policy. 

Paul Rosenberg :: Cut Points In The Foreign Policy Domain: Obama's Questionable Strategy
The Left/Liberal Divide On Foreign Policy

The first thing out of the box, I have to say that it's absolutely true there's long been a divide roughly between liberals on one side and leftists on the other over US foreign policy.  This was most vividly illustrated by the Henry Wallace/Harry Truman split in the 1948 election, and was reinforced by the early days of the Vietnam War protest movement, which was lead by groups like SDS--of which Tom Hayden was the leading theoretician at its founding--which were outside the political establishment.

Yet, at the same time, that split is also just one way to slice the pie, and it has rarely captured what things look like to the careful eye.  There has always been more dissent within the establishment than this dichotomous view gives credit for--which is why, for example, votes like the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution have been shrouded in deception.  If the truth were known, there would be nothing close to establishment unity.

So, we acknowledge that such a divide exists, but we insist that it captures only part of the picture, and is never fully reflective of how the attitudinal lines break down.  It is much better at relating to how people see their institutional roles--which, ironically, now includes Barack Obama, who no longer acts anything like the outsider he was back in 2002.

The Deeper Divide: The Two Cold Wars

A much more substantive dististinction can be pointed to, which I discussed briefly in my diary last weekend, Where's Obama? Questioning v Reinforcing [Foreign Policy] CW #3 (Political Duality of Rep v Dem 6c).  There I devoted a short section to discussion of a remarkable paper by Efstathios T. Fakiolas, "Kennan's Long Telegram and NSC-68: A Comparative Analysis," East European Quarterly, Vol. 31, no. 4, January 1998,  Here I want to look at that paper in a little more detail.  The paper analyzes two key documents from the formative days of the Cold War.  Kennan's Long Telegram, which first formulated a comprehensive picture of the Soviet threat, and laid the foundations for the doctrine of containment, and NSC-68, the national security directive primarily authored by Paul Nitze, which formed the blueprint for how the US fought the Cold War throughout most of its duration.

As I wrote in that diary:

It's my own observation, based on this analysis, that we fought Nitze's Cold War, but we won Kennan's.  It was not, in the end, our military strength that defeated the Soviet Union, it was the appeal of our culture of openness and freedom.  The history of Eastern European resistance movements, especially in Checkoslavakia and Poland, makes this abundantly clear.  Through their influence on dissident culture, Frank Zappa and Lou Reed did more to win the Cold War than any division of tanks ever did-or even a wing of nuclear armed B-52 bombers.

This is why I think it's such a far superior candidate to focus on for identifying a cut point in foreign policy-because it represents the real dividing line between rhetorical fantasy on the one side and historical reality on the other.

Fakiolas first specifies the framework for his analysis:

For the purposes of our analysis, we prefer classical or traditional realism to the structural realism. Our choice is due to the fact that the former is more prescriptive than the latter....

classical or traditional realism focuses on how the unique features of international anarchy that is, the systemic imperatives and impetus, along with the particular characteristics of individual states may lead them to specific behaviour. From this point of view, the classical or traditional realism is prescriptive in the sense that it suggests policies which are likely to help states deal successfully with the international anarchy to which are continually subject.

He then explains the main division within this framework that illuminates the subject matter at hand:

In turn, the classical or traditional realism encompasses disputes among its proponents. On running the risk of oversimplification, we can make two basic classifications: the billiard ball perspective and the tectonic plates model. The fundamentals of these postulates have best been framed by Stephen Krasner.(4) The principal argument of the billiard ball perspective is that the international system is composed solely of egoistic sovereign states interested in maximizing their relative power capabilities at the expense of others; world politics is a "zero-sum" game in which national security conceived of in military and territorial terms is the one and only states' national objective. On the other hand, the main assertion of the tectonic plates model is that even though states are the most important protagonists in world politics, there exist many other non-state actors; the distribution of power determines the outcomes in many fields of international system to the extent that the interaction of states structures varying patterns of behavior; for the world is not "zero-sum," and the opportunity for mutual cooperation is most often present.

The paper's thesis is that the analysis offered by Kennan's Long Telegram reflected the tectonic plates model of the realist school, while that offered by Nitze's NSC-68 represented the billiard ball perspective.

Fakiolas develops a brilliant analysis, which, unfortunately, I cannot do justice to here.  But I can highlight a central thread:  Kennan's approach was basically nonmilitary:

He was convinced that it was within the capabilities of the US to solve the problem without direct confrontation, or a "general military conflict" for two basic reasons: first, the Soviet leaders, unlike Hitler, were "neither schematic nor adventurist," in the sense that they were extremely "sensitive to the logic of force" and, therefore, they could readily withdraw, when strong counter-force and sufficient resistance was blocked up at any point; second, the Soviet Union continued to lag economically far away behind the West.(10)

As a consequence, the interests of the US, Kennan went on in his argument, could best be served by building a healthy and vigorous American society, on the one hand, and by conceiving and "exporting" to other free nations its "positive and constructive" image of the world, on the other.(11)

In contrast, Fakiolas begins his analysis of NSC-68 thus:

NSC-68 was intended to elaborate the overriding objectives of the US national security policy. It began with an assessment of the physiology of the world crisis, adopting two basic assumptions in respect to the global distribution of power: first, following the defeat of Germany and Japan and the collapse of British and French Empires, the international system was bipolar with the US and the Soviet Union representing the two centers of power; secondly, the Soviet Union had fundamentally antithetical objectives compared to those of US and, driven by a "fanatic faith," sought to "impose its absolute authority over the rest of the world." Behind this bipolarized reality stood the inherently irreconcilable struggle between the free and the slave society or, in other words, between "the idea of freedom under a government of laws, and the idea of slavery under the grim oligarchy of the Kremlin." The Cold War was substantially a "real war in which the survival of the free world" was in serious danger.(32)

It's not that Kennan had an objectively more benign view of the Soviet Union-in fact Fakiolas elsewhere notes that "he turned out to exaggerate the Soviet Union's capabilities and overestimate the ability of Soviet leadership to infiltrate the West."  Rather, he had a more realistic appraisal that recognized important, deeply-rooted differences between the threat of Nazi Germany and The Soviet Union.  He saw them as dangerous-but not crazy.

The reverse may well be true of al Qaeda--though "crazy" here is clearly an operational term, which simply means that their reference frame is far removed from that of most other actors.  In both cases, however, it remains true that a truly realistic appraisal demands that we understand both dimensions: how dangerous is an enemy to our basic survival? and how far removed are they from the realist framework that guides most other actors?  Unless we accurately understand the answers to both these questions, we have no chance of formulating a realistic response.  We may still prevail by dumb luck, but the excess cost-in lives as well as treasure-can be truly staggering.

The safest and sanest path by far in both cases--the Cold War and the struggle against terrorism--is to strengthen our existing institutions, and to take the challenges we face as challenges to our own record of living up to our ideals.  They should spur us onward all the more vigorously to be all that we have aspired to be--and toward that end, we should be eager to examine our shortcomings, for that is the only way to correct them.

Conclusion

This, then, is the cut-point in foreign policy that Obama ought to be focusing on in order to both forge a realistic and workable foreign policy, and to unite both liberal/progressive Democrats and the country at large.  Obama comes nowhere close to doing this, I would argue, precisely because he accepts the elite conventional wisdom, which is the source of the falsely-placed cut-points he embraces and articulates in both the passages I cited at the beginning of this diary.

In short, Ron Paul's great advantage--even though he's both reactionary and crazy as a loon--is that he is true to his outsider roots, even though his intellect is limited.  (Not the same as saying he's stupid.  He's clearly not.)  Obama's great weakness--despite a superior intellect--is that he is, at bottom, an establishment sort of guy, who only thinks "outside the box" in ways that are pre-defined inside the box.

It's like the boy band version of teenage rebellion.  Paul Anka instead of Bob Dylan. Peter Frampton in place of Bruce Springsteen. 


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I think you missed Obama's point. (4.00 / 4)
"The Democrats have been stuck in the arguments of Vietnam," he said to me on the campaign plane, "which means that either you're a Scoop Jackson Democrat or you're a Tom Hayden Democrat and you're suspicious of any military action. And that's just not my framework."

"The cut points that Obama makes are, I will argue, fundamentally misguided and destructive.  Even if the divisions were accurate, the only reason to focus on such divisions in the first place should be to heal them, not simply highlight them."

Wohhh wohhh. Obama wasn't making these divisions, he was calling them out as false divisions. He was doing exactly what you were claiming he should do, heal these imaginary divisions by pointing out that they are a false dichotomies. Am I missing your point? What is your point? Clearly Obama wasn't saying he believed in the Scoop Jackson/Tom Hayden division, he was trying to undermine it.


Repeating A Lie Doesn't Make It So (4.00 / 1)
We always here this from Obama supporters, but they can never show us how Obama accomplishes this magic act of healing.

Usually, the failure to deliver doesn't damage Obama much, because the "healer" hype is so much more appealing than the hard work of searching through the minutia to discover there's no there there.  But the homophobic fiasco in South Carolina last week was completely consistent with Obama's routine lack of substance to to fulfill the promise of that hype.

If you care to prove me wrong, please do so by explaining how he has healed these divisions, and pointing to specific people who feel healed by what he has done.

Not to mention, of course, that "Scoop Jackson Democrats" are known as Bush/Cheney neocons now.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Three examples (4.00 / 3)
1) Pushing ethics in the face of entrenched party power in IL.

The job [of negotiating an IL ethics bill] required negotiating across party lines to come up with reform proposals, then presenting them to the Democratic caucus. Senator Kirk Dillard, the Republican Senate president's appointee, said, "Barack was literally hooted and catcalled in his caucus." On the Senate floor, Mr. Dillard said, "They would bark their displeasure at me, and then they'd unload on Obama."

Mr. Obama entered the discussions favoring contribution limits, said Mike Lawrence, now director of the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute at Southern Illinois University. But he realized they had no chance of passing. So the legislation, passed in 1998, banned most gifts by lobbyists, prohibited spending campaign money for legislators' personal use and required electronic filing of campaign disclosure reports.

"I know he wanted to limit contributions by corporations or labor unions, and he certainly wanted to stop the transfers of huge amounts of money from the four legislative caucus leaders into rank-and-file members' campaigns," Mr. Dillard said. "But he knew that would never happen. So he got off that kick and thought disclosure was a more practical way to shine sunlight on what sometimes are unsavory practices."

The disclosure requirement "revolutionized Illinois's system," said Cindi Canary, executive director of the Illinois Campaign for Political Reform. By giving journalists immediate access to a database of expenditures and contributions, it transformed political reporting. It also, she said, "put Senator Obama on a launching pad and put the mantle of ethics legislator on his crown."

Citizens can't expect positive solutions from a corrupt system and Obama's earliest work as an elected official was to heal the breach of trust in the system.

2) Building trust between the African-American community and the police in Chicago.

Mr. Hendon praised Mr. Obama, however, for later winning passage of what some in Springfield called "the driving-while-black bill," which required the police to collect data on the race of drivers they stopped as a way to monitor racial profiling. Law enforcement groups had repeatedly blocked earlier versions while the Republicans were in control; when the Democrats took over, Mr. Obama brokered a compromise between the police groups and the A.C.L.U.

Mr. Hendon, sponsor of a previous bill, said Mr. Obama had "made some compromises that other members of the black caucus just weren't willing to bend on" - perhaps, he said, because Senator Obama had never been abused by the police. But he added, "I'm not saying he gave up too much. In hindsight, it was best to go ahead with the weaker version because a lot of police attitudes changed when we passed it."

Obama was criticized for his rhetoric and approach for brokering the compromise driving while black bill but in hindsight, according to an Obama critic, was "it was best to go ahead with the weaker version because a lot of police attitudes changed when we passed it." Change for the better. Not rhetoric but actual change.

3) Repairing the terms of our political discussion.


At a stop this week in Muscatine, a woman in the crowd noted that she had received many negative [and false] e-mail messages [about Obama].

"We've been hearing this for a while now," Mr. Obama replied, his voice steady. "You don't have to curse them out. Just tell them that they are misinformed."

'You don't have to curse them out' is an example of what pastordan at Street Prophets was talking about in his seminal post Obamarama. Pastordan: "There is some of that here, but we shouldn't mistake Obama for a simple triangulator like Bill Clinton. Nor is he necessarily in pursuit of an illusory moral center like Wallis. Unlike the mushmouthed practitioner of "God's Politics," Obama isn't so certain that all the differences can be worked out if we just try hard enough to get right with God and agree with one another. He's after something more here, something infinitely more threatening to politics as they are currently practiced: he wants to reclaim the authentic self in the public realm.

I know what I look like, he says to his readers: just another b.s. artist with some snake oil to sell. But it's not me; it's the fallen nature of our discourse. We can't take someone like Obama at his word, he argues, because the structure of our political life has been set up to prevent us from trusting one another. In turn, that lack of trust prevents us from being who we were meant to be, both as individuals and as a society. And so here's the audacity: Obama believes that the current political logjam can be broken by repairing the discourse that created it. [...]

Changing the conversation is leadership for Obama. It changes the political situation - in a way that traditional partisans like the netroots might not grasp. People talk about Obama's limitless ambition coupled with his odd lack of apparent passion for controversial topics. It's all there, but the ambition isn't to build a stronger party and the passion isn't to craft legislation. It's to fundamentally change the way Americans talk to one another, and the way they go about solving problems.

Partisan brawling has a place in politics, it's just not ALL of politics. Matt Stoller is a very effective partisan. His 'Bush Dog' campaign is brilliant and acts as kind of 'citizen whip' to steer the Democratic caucus along a progressive path. Still, when he has a disagreement with Mary Landrieu about energy policy and calls her a "moral ghost" it's not likely he'll ever be able to work with Landrieu on anything again. Would you listen to someone who called you a moral ghost? Ever? You can shrug this off but in a world with a finite number of Senators and a finite amount of time to get things done maybe Obama has a point when he talks about working with people and giving everyone the courtesy of a hearing.

The idea that the only tool needed for a progressive future is a bludgeon, first a bludgeon to 60 votes in the Senate, then a bludgeon to purge the party of Bush Dogs makes sense in the abstract but in reality it's NEVER been that way in our history. Not for one minute. Not for the civil rights debates of the 60s, not for the New Deal in the 30s, never.

When there is a bit more trust between the police and black residents in Chicago, when voters have more trust in the system in Illinois, and people in Iowa have a little more confidence to stand up for their views and the truth because the discourse is a little more agreable and less harsh -- when these things happen it's good for our society.

You can choose to dismiss it or find it insignificant as you wish but don't pretend you have some all encompassing knowledge of how the discourse HAS to unfold and Obama supporters are all rubes or naive for believing otherwise. You have your own view. We'll find out the relative merits of these differing views over time.

John McCain


[ Parent ]
This Is Typically Non-Responsive (4.00 / 1)
I don't mean to blame you personally, but these examples are not responsive to the issue at hand, which is this specific discussion of foreign policy.  I am presenting a very specific argument, and it calls for an equally specific response.

I have seen this sort of generic response, raising treasured, off-topic examples, many times with Obama supporters, and often--though certainly not always--others will show up with contradictory information or interpretations.  But to be clear, no one is arguing that dialogue isn't possible.  Or working across the aisle--although the Illinois legislature is rather famous as being a place in recent years where this is much more possible than most other places.  The racial justice scorecards from the Applied Research Center are one indicator of this. Comparing California Republicans with Illinois Republicans is like comparing night and day.

In fact, both Bill Clinton and George Bush came to the presidency with experience dealing with legislative oppositions that were decidedly different from what they faced in Washington.  There is no reason to believe that Obama's state-level experience would be any more predictive.

Furthermore, neither (1) nor (2) are particularly impressive examples.  Good work for a state senator, perhaps.  But hardly earth-shattering or unusual.  Those who do find them truly noteworthy have--whether they realize it or not--simply identified themselves as willing true believers.  These are enough to confirm perceptions already in place, but they are not really impressive to those outside the fold.

Finally, as far as "repairing the terms of our political discussion" goes, it would sure help if Obama stopped bad-mouthing people like me in order to score points with people who will never vote for him.  The term "Sister Souljah" comes to mind.  Not exactly something new.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
You keep moving the goalposts (4.00 / 3)
Your comment above talks about the South Carolina/Donnie McClurkin incident which last time I checked doesn't have a lot to do with foreign policy. My comment was a response to your comment above, not the foreign policy issues in your diary.
- - -
As for Iraq, I can't read Obama's mind about the 'war for oil' comments. My guess is he's trying to give room for moderates who once thought the Iraq War was in the 'US national interest' to redefine it as NOT in the 'US national interest'. You and I may think the 'US national interest' is a euphemism for oil but by pressing the issue you're going to get reflexive denials from the half of the Democratic Senate caucus that voted for the damn war in the first place. If you dismiss the 'oil = US national interests' line of argument from a foreign policy discussion moving forward you're more likely to get the Evan Bayhs, Dick Lugars, and Olympia Snowes (and Hillary Clintons) of the world to see the Iraq occupation as NOT in the US national interest.

I'm less concerned about Obama's rhetoric stepping on the left's toes than getting a governing consensus (not a populist consensus - we're there already) that we can't stay in Iraq. Negotiating without conditions means exactly that - coming to the table without preconditions. Ending the Iraq War on the terms of the left is less important than ending the Iraq War, period.

You could rightly say Obama isn't doing much in Congress today but it's my view that Congress is near useless as currently constructed with regards to foreign policy until January 2009. So it's not worth a lot of effort to lead in Congress now as all it amounts to is a bunch of grandstanding. It's a weak legislative body, so weak that no single member is going to make much difference today given how today's politics are currently practiced (fear, false media narratives, and disconnect between the corporate political class of consultants and the desires of the American people).

As for Ron Paul, his opposition to the Iraq War is every bit as reflexive as Joe Lieberan's support of any war. The model for Iraq War opposition is Lincoln Chafee, not "Dr. No" Ron Paul. Chafee has spoken favorably of Obama's approach on Iraq.

John McCain


[ Parent ]
I'm Not Moving The Goalposts, But I Could Have Been Clearer (4.00 / 1)
The reference to South Carolina was an aside.  It was directed at pointing out the fact that people generally can't be bothered to focus on policy details around Obama--and this was the exception that proved the rule.

The issue I'm focused on is the one I spent several hours researching and writing about.  That's the issue I wanted addressed.  That is the sujbect of this diary.  (Strange coincidence, no?)

I have a very specific piece of constructive criticism here, which goes well beyond Obama in its implications.  Your inability to focus on what I'm saying, and propensity to reguritate generic Obamaphile talking points instead simply points up the lost opportunity I am talking about.  (I'm not blaming you personally.  I think the campaign cultivates such behavior.  That's part of the problem.)

If Obama had correctly identified the real policy divide, and devoted his considerable energy and talent to illuminating it, then tens of thousands of activists like you would be talking about it, instead of talking vague generalities.  And that sort of analytic specificity is precisely what Ron Paul supporters have that Obamaphiles do not.

I'll say it again: That represents a tragic lost opportunity.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
who you talking to? (4.00 / 2)
First, joe3, there's such a thing as an actual filibuster, where folks step to the mike clutching the bible and the phone book and War and Peace, and start talking.  Not the truncated abomination now conducted to save time.  The point of a filibuster is to creatively waste time, not save it.  Dems have the power but don't use it.  That's Paul's point time after time after time.

Secondly, I'm more interested in what Obama is saying to the American people than what he's saying to the politicians who got us into this mess in the first place.  If he spoke to the American people, and they responded, your Chafees and Snowes and Clintons would hear that.  But he short-circuits the process.  Opportunity wasted.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
Precisely! (4.00 / 2)
If Obama took Kennan's approach, he could write a really good law review-styled piece for Foreign Affairs, just to make them happy, and then he could tell the American people:

"We're the greatest country on Earth.  Bin Laden is just a guy hidding out in a cave.  He wants us to come down to his level, and Bush is more than happy to do it.  I'm not.

We will win our struggle with terrorism because we will not terrorize people in return.  We will win them over with trust and dialogue.  We will be vigilant--but not vigilantees. We will uphold the rule of law--not throw it away in craven immitation of those cowards who attack innocents among us."

You think that wouldn't create some political pressure???

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
You know perfectly well Paul that.... (4.00 / 1)
....neither Obama nor Clinton can say,

Bin Laden is just a guy hiding out in a cave.
 

His MIC money would disappear in the blink of an eye. Sadly, most of his supporters cannot seem to grasp the fact that if you walk like Joe Lieberman and talk like Joe Lieberman, bi-partisan...heal the rift...faith brings us together, why you're very apt to have a foreign policy position very much like Joe Lieberman.

Heh... I get troll rated for this comparison at dKos every time.

Delusional is what I call the position that Obama is some sort of progressive on foreign policy.

He's not.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
Fine (0.00 / 0)
Here is a VERY specific example of where obama went against the grain of conventional wisdom:
October 26th, 2002

What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income - to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression.

That's what I'm opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.

Now let me be clear - I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity.

He's a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.

But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.

I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.


http://en.wikisource...

[ Parent ]
Five Years Waiting Now, And Still No Encore (4.00 / 1)
No wonder some folks have stopped waiting.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
The new (0.00 / 0)
Thank you.  It is extremely irresponsible for the netroots, the liberal to moderate, Democratic netroots, to twist the truth to fit their own biases.

All of us are biased to a degree, but most of us attempt not to be.  I have visited this website from time to time and consider it a bit "wingnutty" in its analysis of some of the political happenings of this campaign season.

I have to conclude there is a lot of brains but not much wisdom.


[ Parent ]
Another Obamaphile With No Data (4.00 / 1)
Perhaps you don't realize it; more likely you don't care. But you are simply reinforcing my point: Obama is not appealing to people based on any sound underlying logic, which can be readily defended with facts.

Considering how far he can go without doing so, just imagine what he could do if he did ground his candidacy in an historically compelling logic.

I repeat my main point: this is a tragically missed opportunity.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Gotta disagree slightly on this Paul... (4.00 / 1)
...I don't want anyone as skilled at fooling himself as Obama appears to be to me in charge of a damn thing. So...

I'm relieved that his star seems to be setting.

He reminds me in his inattention to what he's actually saying of a certain brush cutting cowpoke.

And that didn't turn out so well.

Either time.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
You May Have A Point There! (0.00 / 0)
I initially mis-typed, "You May Have A Pint There!"  If you do, you should certainly buy me one, too.  I think I've earned it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
So you see my point then? (0.00 / 0)
Thanks nolalily, it seems that you understood my simple and straightforward point then.

I asked Paul a simple question about miss-interpreting Obama's quote about the Vietnam divisions.  Clearly Obama was not endorsing those divisions, he was speaking of them with disdain. Paul interpreted that Obama quote as suggesting Obama was reinforcing/accepting those divisions. Instead of answering my question, he took my use of the word "heal" and wrote an essay about it. Maybe heal was a slight overstatement, maybe not. Joejoejoe's response was convincing to me anyways. But that still doesn't answer my question.


[ Parent ]
Don't Think Of An Elephant (4.00 / 1)
First off, it doesn't matter if Obama speaks of the divisions with disdain.  He repeats the meme, he feeds the meme. It's as simple as that.  Or do you think it was smart of Nixon to say, "I am not a crook"?

Second, Obama may be speaking of the division with disdain, but he's not saying it didn't exist.  To the contrary, he is patting himself on the back for not falling into that dichotomy--because everyone else was doing so:

The Democrats have been stuck in the arguments of Vietnam," he said to me on the campaign plane, "which means that either you're a Scoop Jackson Democrat or you're a Tom Hayden Democrat and you're suspicious of any military action. And that's just not my framework."

How is that healing?  It's Obama making himself look good by making the party look bad--and using Republican frames in the process.

Third--and most important, for the purposes of this essay--talking about this rightwing meme does nothing to illuminate where the real differences are, why one view is clearly superior to the other, and why it should provide the guiding principles for us, in contrast to Bush's failed vision.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Not sure I get your Point (0.00 / 0)
He repeats the meme, he feeds the meme. It's as simple as that.  Or do you think it was smart of Nixon to say, "I am not a crook"?"

First of all, I really don't follow the connection to the Nixon comment. Sorry, I just don't get it.

Second, I'm not sure how you can critique a position without invoking it in some way. I think Obama's comment about Scoop Jackson versus Tom Hayden Democrats was clear enough that most people would realize it as a critique of that dichotomy.


[ Parent ]
Let Me Try SDomething Really Simple (4.00 / 2)
Why is he commenting about Scoop Jackson versus Tom Hayden in the first place?

Is he running for President?  Or to replace Tim Russert?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The more I read this thread (0.00 / 0)
the more I become convinced that what is at issue is NOT Obama's positions, but his style.  It's about whether the moveon ad was a good idea.

The notion that the quote cited here is a sign that Obama is buying into the rightward meme is misguided for a simple reason: it ignores the fact that he never bought into it in the first place.  He was AGAINST the war at the start.

This diary doesn't really address HIS policy positions - which is what you expect if the objection was based on his policies.  That would require explaining where his speech in Chicago in October of 2002 fell short.  Or looking at his speech in April  (the link will take you to a great summary but Matt Stoller)  or the article in Foriegn Affairs. 

Secondly, it is clear the Obama's style IS having impact politically.  This can be seen in Obama's performance among independents in NH (where he leads Clinton in one NH poll by 45-17). It has hard to ignore the impact Obama's message is having on the young - in general the younger the voter the better he does.  In fact, to some extent the quote above is about generational politics.

Here is the bottom line: the country has decided the War was a mistake.  It also HATES being divided about the War.  Its why the move-on add was so unpopular
Even liberals were strongly divided about the ad.

By The Way - I am for Edwards.


[ Parent ]
I Beg To Differ (4.00 / 1)
The more I read this thread

the more I become convinced that what is at issue is NOT Obama's positions, but his style.  It's about whether the moveon ad was a good idea.

No, it's not.  It's very much about substance.  It's about what constitutes an effective foreign policy.  And the answer I propose is that it consists of trusting our moral strengths and playing from them, while having the courage to face and correct our flaws.

The notion that the quote cited here is a sign that Obama is buying into the rightward meme is misguided for a simple reason: it ignores the fact that he never bought into it in the first place.  He was AGAINST the war at the start.

So what?  Just because you are on one side doesn't mean you are immune to carelessly passing on the other side's messages.  Obama clearly has disparaged others who are anti-war--and done so unfairly.  There is simply no denying it.  This weakens the anti-war movement.

This diary doesn't really address HIS policy positions - which is what you expect if the objection was based on his policies.  That would require explaining where his speech in Chicago in October of 2002 fell short.  Or looking at his speech in April  (the link will take you to a great summary but Matt Stoller)  or the article in Foriegn Affairs.

It doesn't address his policy positions vs. other Democrats.  But that's for a very simple reason--for purpose of this analysis, they virtually all fall short.  They are all in the same boat, the Paul Nitze/War on Terror boat.  Edwards at least knows he wants out of the boat, but he doesn't fully grasp what the alternative is.  And Obama is stuck in the place where people don't even understand that there is a difference betweeen Nitze and Kennan.

In short: this is not a diary about what Obama's foreign policy is.  It is about what it ought to be.  And every other Democrat's foreign policy, too.

Secondly, it is clear the Obama's style IS having impact politically.  This can be seen in Obama's performance among independents in NH (where he leads Clinton in one NH poll by 45-17).

So? Muzak has an impact, too.

It has hard to ignore the impact Obama's message is having on the young - in general the younger the voter the better he does.  In fact, to some extent the quote above is about generational politics.

Haircut bands sell lots of records to the young.  But I wouldn't say they have impact any more significant than muzak.

OTOH, the Velvet Underground only sold 100,000 records, but it was said that everyone who bought one of their records started a band.  That's impact.  (They also helped end the Cold War, along with Frank Zappa.)

Here is the bottom line: the country has decided the War was a mistake.  It also HATES being divided about the War.  Its why the move-on add was so unpopular
Even liberals were strongly divided about the ad.

This is always so.  People hate wars. But they also hate peace activists, because peace activists actually take a stand.  People passively allow wars to occur, and then get upset when they go wrong.  But they aren't committed to stoping them, and they certainly aren't committed to preventng the next one.  Peace activists remind them of this, and it makes them angry. It puts them in touch with their own complicity, and that is what they desperately want to escape.

Boo! Hoo!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Good. You are finally a bit more clear. (4.00 / 2)
"Repeating the meme, feeds the meme" is a nice, simple thing to explain. But, joejoejoe and nolalilly clearly haven't read Lakoff, so your framing comments went right past them. The "I am not a crook" is classic example of mis-propaganda stupidity that the Republicans have long since figured out. But still, many people are stuck in their literal reading of Nixon's comment, and don't understand that the emotional context produces exactly the opposite of the literal meaning:  the power-word CROOK completely overrides the  "I am not a".

Your main point of course is more difficult to get: Obama's "let's just all get along" hopeful message mis-diagnosis the problem and it feeds the Conservative CW framework. It shows that Obama DOESN'T UNDERSTAND several key things:
  - CW hides where the actual progressive fault lines are
  - How messaging and the frame are linked
  - And the harm that come from feeding the wrong meme

If bipartisan rancor is the problem, it is easy to slip to the solution of asking having the Democrats cave to the Republicans, which is a very right-wing fault line.

Obama made the same mistake on Social Security: People like social security; so why feed the right-wing message that there is some problem with it? Instead feed the the idea that we need to expand the social net to health care. Now there is a hopeful framework that leads toward progressive change.


[ Parent ]
Good analysis (4.00 / 1)
Paul,

I am really liking your thoughtful and thorough analysis of both issues and candidates as they relate to various issues.

I especially like the "Breaking the Rules" posts. Keep them up. They ought to be required reading for everyone in a leadership position in the Democratic Party.

About your analysis of Obama re: his outsider status - I think you're right. I also think his instincts come in part from his time as a teacher. And, I don't think those instincts are of any use in the race for the White House.

Like Hillary or not, she seems to understand the politics of running for president, and right now (her recent unforced errors not withstanding) she has the best operation going. Web sites like the HillaryHub and the FactHub are fun for her supporters, but they are really there for the media. I don't see any other candidate working at this level right now.

Hillary wins in a landslide in 2008


First Comment (4.00 / 2)
I think you are reaching.

You go from this:

"This is why I think it's such a far superior candidate to focus on for identifying a cut point in foreign policy-because it represents the real dividing line between rhetorical fantasy on the one side and historical reality on the other."

To a quote about classical vs. structural realism, followed by a shout out to the billiard balls and tectonic plates theories. This in an effort to highlight cut points etc...

Getting past the fact that your exposition of these theories is murky, and the discussion of the Kennan memo adds little to understanding this rift as you present it here (I'd suggest removing it as it takes away from you intended point), I do not feel you have sufficiently identified your premise, nor made a compelling case for the relation between theoretical cut points and the wider philosophical ideals you care about. Let alone why we should accept your 'cut points of Obama' as anything other than something you selected to confirm your own opinions.

I would suggest being a bit more discerning in your selection of cut-points (ie. is Obama's potential foreign policy going to be determined by the 'no blood for oil strawman', as Bowers put it and a quote about Scoop Jackson, or are there more significant things that might shape it, like say his stances on diplomacy or non-proliferation or engagement or trade or debt)

That said, I do not know where to start with your argument, because I do not understand it.  It is couched in a lot of big words and apparently weighty ideas, which at first glance may appear authoritative on foreign affairs to a casual reader, but fall apart when you're writing for people who have been annoyed by academics like Krasner, Walt, Morgenthau and other concise yet unenjoyable writers for years.

Lastly, and in fairness to your readers, there should be a prominent link in this post to what Obama actually wrote about his foreign policy approach in Foreign Affairs:

http://www.foreignaf...

All candidates takes are here:

http://www.foreignaf...


Jesus, Make Up Your Mind! (4.00 / 1)
On the one hand, you're upset that I didn't spend as long explaining the paper as I did in an earlier draft.  On the other hand, you complain about being "annoyed by academics like Krasner, Walt, Morgenthau and other concise yet unenjoyable writers."

But, in fact, I DID present the central distinction between the two models, and what follows from it:

As a consequence, the interests of the US, Kennan went on in his argument, could best be served by building a healthy and vigorous American society, on the one hand, and by conceiving and "exporting" to other free nations its "positive and constructive" image of the world, on the other.(11)

And, in contrast:

NSC-68 was intended to elaborate the overriding objectives of the US national security policy. It began with an assessment of the physiology of the world crisis, adopting two basic assumptions in respect to the global distribution of power: first, following the defeat of Germany and Japan and the collapse of British and French Empires, the international system was bipolar with the US and the Soviet Union representing the two centers of power; secondly, the Soviet Union had fundamentally antithetical objectives compared to those of US and, driven by a "fanatic faith," sought to "impose its absolute authority over the rest of the world." Behind this bipolarized reality stood the inherently irreconcilable struggle between the free and the slave society or, in other words, between "the idea of freedom under a government of laws, and the idea of slavery under the grim oligarchy of the Kremlin." The Cold War was substantially a "real war" in which the survival of the free world" was in serious danger.(32)

The parallel of the latter, NSC-68 point of view to the "war on terror" paradigm is obvious: two powers locked in a struggle, driven by fanaticism on one side, a "real war in which the survival of the free world" is in serious danger.  What's missing is a contemporary parallel of the former, Long Telegram point of view (confident in our basic system, unwilling to devolve for "survival's sake.") Edwards has begun groping towards this parallel by specifically rejecting the "war on terror" framework, but has not coherently replaced it.

Given how influential these two documents were--and how, ironically, the US fought the Cold War largely based on Nitze's vision, but won it because of Kennan's--it's pretty audacious of you to call this analysis arbitrary.

And that's even without brining up the point that it was the gung-ho desire to defeat the Soviets militarily that fueled our support for the Mujahadeen, allied us with bin Laden, and thus sowed the seeds for the "war on terror" that now has us all tied in knots.

As for what Obama actually wrote, and all the other candidates, my point is simply: who the hell cares?  The differences they are shuffing around are all small beer.  None of them amounts to a dramatically different approach to foreign policy.  If they were, it would be as easy to talk about them as it is to talk about Dennis Kucinich or Ron Paul, and there would be no need to link to long documents.  You could put it easily into your own words.

The fact that you can't is precisely the problem I'm pointing to.  And it's not a problem with you.  It's a problem with Obama--and the rest of the Dems, as well, of course.  But Obama is the one who is all about how different and transforming and transcendental he is, and how dualistically trapped in Vietnam all the rest of us losers are.

That said, I do not know where to start with your argument, because I do not understand it.

That much, I think, was honest and straightforward.  Now that I've given you the Cliff Notes, maybe you can try reading it again.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Take things (0.00 / 0)
"As for what Obama actually wrote, and all the other candidates, my point is simply: who the hell cares?  The differences they are shuffing around are all small beer."

This is interesting, but seems to a bit ironic given that you're extrapolating his supposed stance, with "points of reference here are how Obama himself has characterized the divisions in foreign policy as he sees them, and how he responds." Namely, two different quotations. Not very rigorous, I believe, not representative.

"The fact that you can't is precisely the problem I'm pointing to. And it's not a problem with you.  It's a problem with Obama--and the rest of the Dems, as well, of course.  But Obama is the one who is all about how different and transforming and transcendental he is, and how dualistically trapped in Vietnam all the rest of us losers are."

No, I think it might be because I'm not willing to base my opinion of a presidential contender on two quotes that don't say the same things to me as they apparently do to you. I don't accept the premise that they signify this massive theoretical clash the way you do.

I think your trying to shoehorn two things together in a rather clumsy way...

As for not understanding your point, I appreciate your self-congratulatory tone assuming that the fault lies with me. May I be frank? The writing is bad, the logic disjointed and unsupported, and the central premise flawed. But what would I know, I only tried reading the thing three times.


[ Parent ]
Can't We All Just Get Along??? (0.00 / 0)
Obama has scolded and/or put down progressives on many more than two occassions, so picking two prominent examples that relate to foreign policy is hardly shoehorning.  Shorthanding, sure, I could agree to that.  If I were writing a scholarly paper, I'd want to have 10 or 12 examples at least.  But I'm not doing that here.  And what I am doing is surely up to the standards of normal magazine writing.

As for your first citation of my snarky dismissal--well, all you've got to do is show that I'm wrong.  What great break with the thinking of the last 50 years have I overlooked coming from Obaama's lips?  If you're going to argue with me, do so with some substance, not just a series of pissant formalist complaints.  Be a mensch goddamn it!

All sorts of progress can come from substantive disagreements.  I relish them.  But formalist snipping is such a bore.

Further, I'm not trying to argue that you should base your opinion of a presidential contender on two quotes, and I'm not sure why you'd think I was saying you should.  These quotes illuminate a well-known aspect of Obama's approach to politics, and you will certainly feel differently about Obama depending on how you feel about this underlying approach.  My arguement here is specific to this example, though I would certainly argue that it could be extended farther.  However, I have not yet made that argument here.  As it stands, I am making a very specific claim here.

Finally, I can't help repeating that Obama is not the only one who fails to get it.  I pick on him only because he started it. He is claiming he can bridge divides and transcend dichotomies, but from where I stand, I don't even think he can recognize them properly.  And this is a specific example I would be happy to debate.  If only Obamaphiles could actually debate substance.

Ah, if only pigs had wings!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
You missed obama's point, and now my point. (0.00 / 0)
My response to you was not on Obama generally, but on how you interpreted that particular quote of Obama's. You still have not addressed his question. The broader point may or may not be correct, but either way I'm pretty sure you used the wrong Obama quote to exemplify it.

Does in ever occur to the general reader.... (4.00 / 1)
...that Obama has so many positions and 'points' that it's kind of hard to keep track of them all?

Does to me. And I think the underlying problem that Obama is all about getting elected not coherent progressive policy for the betterment of all.

I've heard him in person and I would say, unequivocally, that 'there's no there there...'

Paul's specific points are a perfect example of why Obama should not be any one's choice for President.

The guy is a machine politician reminds me in some ways of 'The Rabbit' Emmanuel, love to see a post from someone examining the effect 'machine' politics in the Midwest has had on the 'Democrat' Party leadership, and I think it's trained him to think only short term.

Not what we need now or for the foreseeable future.

My opinion for what it's worth and spare me and the others here teh 'Pile On'. It's not progressive in the least.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
Kennan v Nitze (4.00 / 1)
I completely agree with this post and have long thought that the Cold War would have ended far sooner had we but really followed George Kennan's approach.  All the tremendous military buildups on both sides, the arms race, were counter to a policy I imagine FDR would have directed had he lived.

Literally dozens of proxy wars were fought over the Cold War decades.  These proxy wars were responsible for untold human suffering and degradation and, I would argue, utterly unnecessary.

Barack Obama's foreign polict approach does not seem to follow Kennan's in any sense and John McCain's is 180 out of phase.  In their Foreign Affairs articles, I see more Kennan in Hillary Clinton's than any other yet.  Maybe someone will surprise us, but I doubt it, and see a longer and bloodier struggle against Al Qaeda for that reason.

Thanks for the good work.  It was thought provoking and that's a rare thing in the blogosphere.


The Real Cut Point (0.00 / 0)
Lenin was the father of the Soviet Union and Stalin pretty much followed in his footsteps.  Lenin fashioned the USSR after a large American industrial company.  Fordism.

By this, I mean that Lenin (and Stalin) subscribed to the Fordist model of domination, hierarchy, manipulation, instrumentalism -- to build large industries, to marshal resources, to be militaristic.

And this model Lenin took from the (in that day) advanced capitalist industrial combines.

What happened in the cold war as between the USSR and the Western Capitalist Powers, was a competition between various forms of the same Fordist ideology.

That the USSR fell first is simply a reflection of the fact that the USSR had long been crippled by civil war, boycott, WWII and the devastation there, and (probably most important) starting out as a more economically backward industrial state.

So the USSR fell first, but that doesn't mean the US won't follow on the heels of the USSR, if only somewhat later.  We can already see that happening in the massive current account defecits as the US continues to attempt the same dominunist, militaristic strategy.  The dollar falls and the US economy goes through the ringer, if much later than the USSR's economy did.  This makes sense, since the US economy had a much larger cushion to fall back on before disaster hits.

And, so, the real cut point is the distinction between idiotic, militaristic, Fordism, based on the need for an elite group to marshal forces by dominating, manipulating, and exploiting the rest of society.  As the dollar falls, global demand fails to rise to the occasion; as global warming heats up and public health world-wide leaves us open to massive new plagues, the same cold war chickens that haunted the Soviet Union will come home to roost in the USA.

Not that Obama or Clinton or Edwards will ever talk like that.  They are, after all, serious people.


One Note (0.00 / 0)
Stanley Aronowitz describes this much better than I in his great book, The Crisis in Historical Materialism, in which Aronowitz notes that the true gifts of the New Left were feminism and environmentalism, because both sought to counter exploitation and domination of both the human and the natural environment.  In this sense, Aronowitz argues, the left was moved beyond the Fordism of Marx, Lenin and Stalin.

[ Parent ]
You Have A Point (0.00 / 0)
But I wouldn't call these cut points in foreign policy--they're a bit beyond that.  And I don't think we can really take the sort of effective action that flows from such an analysis without having support from developing a much healthier foreign policy option.

I'm not arguing that everyone should stop whatever they're doing and join my project to do this.  There are many other lines of development that need to converge, and I'd never want to get into a zero-sum pissing match over who's is more important.  I'm just saying that the argument I'm developing here is intentionally open-ended.

It starts with healing a needless rift within the post-WWII Democrtatic Party establishment.  But it has the potential to serve much broader goals.  A key aspect of this is that Kennan regards the Soviet challenge as being primarily about the US failure to fully live up to its promises.  He therefore suggests a non-defensive stance toward facing our flaws and correcting them.  Even though he's an establishment liberal, that creates a lot of space for more radical people to creatively engage him.  That's precisely the sort of radical/liberal dialogue that the early Cold War Red Scare aimed at destroying. and precisely the sort of radical/liberal dialogue that we need to revive and raise to new heights.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
One Problem (0.00 / 0)
I don't think the rift you want to heal is really based on an honest disagreement about history and foreign policy.  It is more the window dressing for a power struggle amongst people who don't like and don't trust each other.  They have different domestic goals, come from different cultural backgrounds and represent different and often antagonistic interest groupings within American capitalism.  The two sides don't really want to work together.

[ Parent ]
I Am NOT Barack Obama! (0.00 / 0)
Who said I wanted to heal the rift?

I want to expose it.

Because right now, it seems like 60%+ of the country wants something different, but they don't know what it is.

I'm happy with a 60% supermajority any day of the week.  I don't need 80%, though I know I'll get it if the 60% solution actually is a solution.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
OK (0.00 / 0)
My reply was right after I got up and hadn't yet had a cup of tea.  You definitively are not Barak Obama.

[ Parent ]
My Point Is That Disagreement Isn't A Disease (0.00 / 0)
Obama wants to "heal divisions," but not all divisions can or should be healed.  Some are healthy, and serve to keep important issues open and alive for continued reconsideration as situations change over time.  Some are simply differences of point of view that need to be respected.  And it's the failure to recognize this that's the bigger problem.

We can see this most clearly when the rationale of "healing divisions" is used by dictatorships to suppress democracy.  Obama's mania for "healing divisions" doesn't come from a dictatorial impulse, but is equally misguided, nonetheless.

It's the intentional exacerbation of group divisions by rightwing wedge politics that's the real disease afflicting America.  But Obama's Liebermanesque perscriptions utterly misiagnose the disease, and thus misprescribe the cure.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
And You're Right (0.00 / 0)
There are basic conflicts of interest and value that cannot be reconciled and shouldn't.  Sometimes that tension is good, and sometimes you just have to fight it out.

[ Parent ]
The Dumbest Thing about the "Scoop Jackson" Comment (4.00 / 1)
Obama says:

"The Democrats have been stuck in the arguments of Vietnam ... which means that either you're a Scoop Jackson Democrat or you're a Tom Hayden Democrat and you're suspicious of any military action. And that's just not my framework."

This pisses me off. You know what? Everybody SHOULD be suspicious of any military action. Every time, always.

That's not to say that military action is never justified (though historically, it hasn't often been). But for Pete's sake - at the very least, we should be suspicious and skeptical about it. Anyone advocating military action should bear a very heavy burden of proof. Instead, it works the other way around - someone proposes a war, and the burden is on its opponents to argue that it's not a good idea. This is CRAZY.

I wish more people had been suspicious about our latest little military adventure.


I Made A Similar Comment The First Time I Saw This Quote (4.00 / 1)
Actually, I said something about the Founding Fathers, I think, building that suspicion into the very structure of our Constitution.

There are many levels of stupid in that comment.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Indeed, one of their greatest fears.... (0.00 / 0)

......was that the new Republic would get involved in foreign adventures by which they meant wars.

This fact that Obama can talk so casually about war marks him as a dangerous fool whom I fervently hope not only doesn't make it in this primary but goes back to Chicago where the worst he can to is screw up the next garbage strike.


Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
Exactly (0.00 / 0)
Rational critical analysis is based on scepticism. If you're willing to accept anything without a degree of suspicion and analysis, then you're wasting your cognitive faculties. You should certainly be cynical.

Anything you're told should be treated with suspicion until you've made an analysis of whether or not it is reliable. And with something as important as war with applies even more.

This seems like academic parsing, because it is. But it's no less important for that and Obama's background in academia suggests that it's not just a mistaken bit of phrase use.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
Obama reminds me a bit (4.00 / 3)
of people I know who, because they came from backgrounds that were outside of what was considered to be mainstream US society at the time that they came of age, decided to make a series of bargains or compromises in order to better fit into that wider society--while at the same time prominently holding onto certain aspects of their background in order to "keep it real" and not come across as too obviously smooth and slick and phony. And while the desire and willingness to do this is quite understandable--few people who have the ability to move beyond it tend to want to remain "stuck" (as they see it) in their non-mainstream background sub-cultures and worlds (be it the inner city, the Barrio, a Jewish, Indian or Asian enclave, or a small town in middle America)--the price that is often paid, in the form of giving up aspects which are genuine about oneself, in order to better fit in, and taking on certain pretensions and phony qualities, for what often ends up being just the illusion of fitting in, is often far too high and ultimately of mixed benefit.

I see this somewhat in Obama, and it is beginning to trouble me. Superficially, he has been quite effective in promoting this image of himself as a bridge between worlds, not just politically, but culturally, ethnically, racially, nationally and religiously. I.e. the son of a black African Muslim man and white American Christian mother, who grew up all over the world, lived in the African-American inner city but went to white bread Ivy league schools, was poor but is comfortable with money and fine things, aware of the still-prevalent role that racism and bigotry play in our society but able to rise above bitterness and anger, etc. Superficially, it's quite compelling and appealing, and he may actually buy into it, superficially. And there may well be actual substance behind it.

But the more he reveals his true political stripes, the more it belies this appealing superficial image of him as a bridge-builder. Instead, he's coming across as too willing to compromise with or not seriously fight people who hold view that are supposedly very opposed to his, yet on the other hand too willing to set up and attack straw men on his own side. As for the former, look at all the votes that he's missed on important bills and nominations, or waited until the very last minute to vote on. And as for the latter, look at the way in which he's been attacking Hillary, which I initially supported, but which I now view as excessively and transparently opportunistic, vicious and even hypocritical.

I mean, did he really need to pile on her the way that he did last night at the JJD? That was seriously over the top, and reeking of panic and desperation. Never mind whether there was a sound basis for the accusations that he hurled and insinuations that he made--I think that in many ways there was, as Hillary HAS said and done some quite awful things as senator vis a vis foreign and military policy. But to so blatantly, bluntly and viciously attack her for this was, I think, uncalled for, unwise, intemperate, mean-spirited, and demagogic.

And I sense that some, if not much of this, stems from his sense of himself as still being an outsider trying to be accepted as an insider, yet pushing too hard, and being too blatant, desperate and insincere about it, to "deserve" to be accepted as an insider. This apparent anger at entrenched insiders comes across as phony, forced and really self-contradictory (almost, in a limited way, like the way that Bush keeps blaming "beltway insiders" for being out of touch with the country, when he is obviously the #1 beltway insider), given that in many ways he has been trying hard to become an insider.

I don't believe that Obama is completely or even largely a phony. I think that he does hold certain core principles that he believes in quite strongly and earnestly. But I think that he also still feels like a powerless and disrespected outsider trying to become an insider with real power and respect, and that in his efforts to accomplish this, he has unwisely chosen to take certain unfortunate, dishonest, transparent, amateurish, stupid and unnecessary actions that are, I think, quite beneath him and his talents, intelligence, wisdom, accomplishments and potential, and which he does a great disservice to by stooping to.

It reveals a certain immaturity, desperation, and, perhaps, weakness of character, that make me seriously question my initial support for him. It's not that he lacks the qualities that could make for a great president. It's just that he appears to lack for them right NOW, in sufficiently mature and realized form. I think that he knows this, and has unwisely chosen to take certain unwise and unnecessary shortcuts to compensate for this, which will, I believe, ultimately backfire on him.

His was always somewhat of a Quixotic effort to become his party's nominee, given his relative lack of experience at the national level, and other obvious strikes against him as dictated by the still prevalent but usually unstated "rules" of how American politics actually work (e.g. favoring affluent traditional white Christian males, mediated by an inherently unfair and unethical media, heavily skwewed by the influence of corporate money and power, etc.). So if he stood any chance at all, he clearly had to offer something uniquely special and different that could compensate for these obstacles.

And, at first, he did, with his vision of hope and optimism and bridge-building. But as initial enthusiasm for someone truly different (at least superficially) has shifted into the cold harsh reality of electoral politics, he has unwisely chosen to deemphasize that aspect of his initial appeal, and overemphasize stale old attack campaigning, which has not only been questionable in its autheniticy and severity, but which, by standing in stark opposition to his earlier message of optimism and hope, only comes across as even more negative, unappealing, unconvincing and hypocritical.

The shift from "hope" to "attack" has been so swift and severe, that it almost make it seem like his earlier "hopeful" message was contrived, an approach which was felt to be most likely to work back then, but now is seen as no longer as useful, and so he's shifted into another mode. It makes one wonder which one is his "true" mode--or if he even has one. I personally suspect that he does, but that he's lost touch with and confidence in it, which is why he's now doing what he's doing, which I think is a mistake, possibly fatal (I can just picture Wolfson and his people staying up late to craft a sophisticated and powerful series of responses to these recent attacks that will make this backfire on Obama).

And if it's not already too late--and I suspect that it is--I strongly believe that he needs to dial back the attacks, and make them more measured and proactive--i.e. what he thinks we should do, as opposed to what he thinks is wrong with what Hillary wants to do. He needs to convince the public that he can lead, and lead well, and not merely that others cannot. If you can demonstrate the former, the latter is unnecessary. And attacking your opponents is not the way to do that. But he might not be at a point in his personal and political development where he's smart enough to fully realize that, both in his mind, and in actuality.

Hillary is an extremely lucky candidate to have opponents who are not capable of taking her on, either inherently, or at the present time. If she wins, it will be as much by default, as due to any special brilliance or capability on her own part. And if she's smart, she will know and admit this to herself, and conduct herself accordingly. All successful politicians are required to carry within themselves the message whispered by a slave standing right behind them to every triumphant general who was paraded through Rome after a glorious military triumph:

Sic transit gloria mundi, or glory is fleeting.

Hillary, Barack et al--heed these words well, and they will serve you well. Heed them not, and they will be your nemesis. (Think very recent history for ample examples.) Don't overestimate your abilities, overstate your case, underestimate your weaknesses and opponents, and misestimate everyone and everything, including your intended audience.

I.e. "keep it real". It's the golden rule of politics (even if, as is often the case, this means being extremely good at faking authenticity, as the old joke goes--but I'm hoping that some of these people have the ability and character to actually keep it real, naive as that undoubtedly sounds and likely is--there's always the example of Lincoln to keep one hopeful).

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


Seems like (0.00 / 0)
it's more than Hillary, et al, that need to heed these words.  Exactly what are we doing when we divide Democrats into "Bush Dogs", "Rove Dogs", "Opposition in Name Only", and any other of haf-a-dozen derogatory terms for our own side.

Obviously, we should push for more progressive policies, but we should find a way to do it that doesn't ostracize and defeat our own party.  Sort of like Ron Paul is doing.


The point of all this is that these folks are.... (0.00 / 0)
....Obama, Hillary, Biden, Reid, Emmanuel, Pelosi are calling themselves something that they are not; that is, Democrats.

They don't belong in my Democratic Party, they would not have belonged in my Daddy's Democratic Party and they sure as hell would not have been part of Grandad's, and I can go on for hours about why that is so, so I'm working to throw them out.

A useful comparison would be: Tim Russert is as much a 'journalist' as Nancy Pelosi is 'Speaker of the House'.

Not.

It's past time for a change, a real, real big change. Many here in Free Left Blogistan welcomed Miss Nancy with open arms and she took a shit on us.

She took a shit on the American people and worst of all she took a shit on the Iraqis whom your tax money is being used to annihilate. Something that folks who want to go on about 'party unity' tend to forget since it's not their children, aunts, uncles or grandparents who are being slaughtered by American troops in the MeatGrinder.

I say, 'Big mistake Nancy as you will find out as we move forward.'

You don't agree...fine.

As fer Ol' Ron....

Oh...You mean this Ron Paul? Thanks pal, I'll take a pass on the Fascism.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
I'm not arguing (0.00 / 0)
with anything you said.  I'm just saying it's counterproductive to be childish about it.

[ Parent ]
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