Ron Paul OPPOSSES Cutting Taxes-IF He Smells A Messican! (Part 1)

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Nov 24, 2007 at 07:30


OH NO! Not ANOTHER Ron Paul Diary! Well, yes, and a rather arcane subject, to boot.  But there's a method to this madness, based on the premises that (a) everything is connected, (b) the universe is a fractal, and (c) you can sometimes learn the most by examining seemingly secondary matters where the BS defenses are weaker.  Furthermore, picking apart a far right movement candidate is important for the larger purpose of reflecting, yet again, on the lack of symmetry between left and right in America today. Part 1 lays out the basics of the issue. Part 2 gets into how Ron Paul completely misrepresented it, taking the the exact opposite of his his usual anti-tax position.

Arguably Ron Paul's greatest bugaboo is cutting taxes.  As a doctor, quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if someday he didn't recommend cutting taxes as a cure for the common cold.  So imagine my surprise when I discovered a tax cut he's opposed to! 

Well, I wasn't really surprised.  You see, the tax cut was for Mexicans, Mexican-Americans, Americans working in Mexico, and the companies that employ them.  And when it comes to Mexicans-or anything hinting of them-Ron Paul has a tendency to, well, let's just say that he claims he's not a racist.  But actions speak louder than words.  And here is one blindingly clear example where Ron Paul opposes cutting taxes.  In fact, he can't even bring himself to accurately describe what he's even talking about.  So I'll have to do it for him.

The issue at hand is what's called a "Totalization Agreement," that harmonizes the payroll tax-collecting policies between two countries that both have social insurance systems (like Social Security).  Such agreements started in Western Europe, where the phenomena of citizens from one country working in another has long been a common one.  Without such agreements it was commonplace for both individuals and the companies that employed them to be taxed by both governments.

Clearly, this is not fair.  Anyone can see that. Anyone except Ron Paul, that is.  Here we have a classic example of the kind of situation that Paul is always railing against-an unfair tax burden-but unlike many of the situations where he imagines that burdens are unfair, or simply assumes it, for no clearly defensible reason, this situation is so obviously unfair that it only needs to be described to be seen as unfair.  All of which leads us to question his purported motivation in raising the issue of "unfair tax burdens" in so many other situations.  If that was really his concern, he would be championing the cause of totalizaiton with every country in the world.  Instead, he is bitterly opposed to a proposed totalization agreement with Mexico.  And that smells just a wee bit like racism to me.

But, go ahead, jump to the flip, and smell for yourself.

Paul Rosenberg :: Ron Paul OPPOSSES Cutting Taxes-IF He Smells A Messican! (Part 1)
Totalization Explained

Totalization agreements do two simple things:

(1) arrange things between two governments so that people and businesses don't suffer from double  taxation, and

(2) arrange things between two government so that if people pay into two different social security systems, they can get credit for paying into both.

But don't take my word for it.  Here's what the Social Security webpage on totalization agreements has to say:

U.S. International Social Security Agreements

Introduction

Since the late 1970's, the United States has established a network of bilateral Social Security agreements that coordinate the U.S. Social Security program with the comparable programs of other countries. This article gives a brief overview of the agreements and should be of particular interest to multinational companies and to people who work abroad during their careers.

International Social Security agreements, often called "Totalization agreements," have two main purposes. First, they eliminate dual Social Security taxation, the situation that occurs when a worker from one country works in another country and is required to pay Social Security taxes to both countries on the same earnings. Second, the agreements help fill gaps in benefit protection for workers who have divided their careers between the United States and another country.

Of course, we can see what the problem is for Ron Paul-or at least one of them: it's that damn New World Order, lettin' foreigners work here, and maybe even worse, lettin' Americans work abroad where they can get their heads filled with all kinds of funny ideas.

But, still, he's always claiming that he's not against anyone.  It's just the Bavarian Illuminati and whatnot that he's opposed to.  The people are just fine, he's not prejudiced against anyone, he insists.  And here are clear cases of double taxation.  He ought to be outraged.  What's more, the website goes on to explain, the US has been doing something about it for several decades now:

Agreements to coordinate Social Security protection across national boundaries have been common in Western Europe for decades. Following is a list of the agreements the United States has concluded and the date of the entry into force of each. Some of these agreements were subsequently revised; the date shown is the date the original agreement entered into force.

CountryEntry into Force
Italy November 1, 1978
GermanyDecember 1, 1979
SwitzerlandNovember 1, 1980
BelgiumJuly 1, 1984
NorwayJuly 1, 1984
CanadaAugust 1, 1984
United Kingdom  January 1, 1985
SwedenJanuary 1, 1987
SpainApril 1, 1988
FranceJuly 1, 1988
PortugalAugust 1, 1989
NetherlandsNovember 1, 1990
AustriaNovember 1, 1991
FinlandNovember 1, 1992
IrelandSeptember 1, 1993
LuxembourgNovember 1, 1993
GreeceSeptember 1, 1994
South KoreaApril 1, 2001
ChileDecember 1, 2001
AustraliaOctober 1, 2002
JapanOctober 1, 2005

The webpage goes on to explain:

The Problem of Dual Coverage

Without some means of coordinating Social Security coverage, people who work outside their country of origin may find themselves covered under the systems of two countries simultaneously for the same work. When this happens, both countries generally require the employer and employee or self-employed person to pay Social Security taxes.

Dual Social Security tax liability is a widespread problem for U.S. multinational companies and their employees because the U.S. Social Security program covers expatriate workers--those coming to the United States and those going abroad--to a greater extent than the programs of most other countries. U.S. Social Security extends to American citizens and U.S. resident aliens employed abroad by American employers without regard to the duration of an employee's foreign assignment, and even if the employee has been hired abroad. This extraterritorial U.S. coverage frequently results in dual tax liability for the employer and employee since most countries, as a rule, impose Social Security contributions on anyone working in their territory.

Dual tax liability can also affect U.S. citizens and residents working for foreign affiliates of American companies.

As an example of how these programs work, the Social Security webpage "Totalization Agreement with Italy" (linked to from the table above) contains the following chart (slightly reformatted), clearly showing its purpose and how it works to place both individuals and companies under just one set of national tax laws-either Italy's, the United States', or in some cases, whichever the taxpayer chooses:

II.A. Summary of Agreement Rules

The following table shows whether your work is covered under the U.S. or Italian Social Security system. If you are covered under U.S. Social Security, you and your employer (if you are an employee) must pay U.S. Social Security taxes. If you are covered under the Italian system, you and your employer (if you are an employee) must pay Italian Social Security taxes. Part III explains how to get a form from the country where you are covered that will prove you are exempt in the other country.

 

 

You are a U.S. national working in Italy:
Coverage and Taxes
  • For a U.S. employer
U.S.
  • For an Italian (or other non-U.S.) employer
Italy
  • As a self-employed person
U.S.
You are a U.S. national working in the U.S.:
Coverage and Taxes
  • For an Italian employer
U.S.
  • As a self-employed person
U.S.
You are an Italian national working in the U.S.:
Coverage and Taxes
  • For an Italian employer (or Italian-controlled business)
You may elect either U.S. or Italian coverage (see Part II.B)
  • For a U.S. (or other non-Italian) employer
U.S.
  • As a self-employed person and you are a resident of the United States
U.S.
You are an Italian national working in Italy:
Coverage and Taxes
  • For Italian employer 
Italy
  • For a U.S. employer or as a self-employed person and you are a resident of the United States
You may elect either U.S. or  Italian coverage (see Part II.B)

You are a dual U.S./Italian national working in Italy:
Coverage and Taxes
In employment or self-employment covered under both systems You may elect either U.S. or  Italian coverage (see Part II.B)  
You are a dual U.S./Italian national working in the U.S.:
Coverage and Taxes
  • In employment covered under both systems
You may elect either U.S. or  Italian coverage (see Part II.B)  
  • As a self-employed person 
U.S.
You are a third country national regardless of the employer:
Coverage and Taxes
  • Working in the U.S.
U.S.
  • Working in Italy
Italy

Mexico Is Different-But Only Within Limits

While the proposed totalization agreement with Mexico is similar to that already in force with other countries, there is a difference just because of the composition of people who would be covered.  By far, the largest number of people affected between Mexico and the US are Mexican nationals who have immigrated to the US, who have worked a portion of their lives in both countries. These people are covered in other agreements, but they are a relatively minor piece of the puzzle for most countries.  Not so for Mexico and the US.  If someone has worked legally 9 ½ years in the US, and 35 years in Mexico, they have paid into both systems, but cannot collect a penny from US Social Security. If they've worked illegally 10 years in the US and 35 years in Mexico, they have almost certainly paid into both systems (undocumented immigrants commonly use fake Social Security cards that pay into the system, but cannot collect benefits). 

As the Center for Budget and Policy Priorities explains:

Social Security coverage is lower among elderly Hispanics for several reasons.  Although undocumented workers frequently pay taxes into the Social Security system (under false or non-work status Social Security numbers), many of these workers, who are disproportionately Hispanic, will never collect Social Security benefits based on these contributions.  The presence of undocumented workers lowers Hispanic participation rates.

The Social Security system, through its ten-year work requirement, also lowers coverage rates for Hispanic workers who are here legally.  To qualify for Social Security retirement benefits, a worker must contribute to the Social Security system for at least ten years (40 quarters).  This creates a cliff in the system that can adversely affect workers with short work histories.  Despite the fact that they have contributed payroll taxes, those who work for less than ten years in covered employment receive no retirement benefits (unless there is a "totalization" agreement in effect with an immigrant's native country; see footnote 22), while someone who works exactly ten years can receive substantial benefits.

New immigrants, of which there are many in the Hispanic community, tend to have relatively short work histories in the United States and thus would tend to be disproportionately harmed by the way the threshold is structured. [22]

And:

22] This is not the case for citizens from the 20 countries with which the United States has "totalization" agreements in effect.  Under these agreements, the United States coordinates Social Security benefits with the public pension systems that exist in those countries.  Work in both countries can be counted toward the ten-year eligibility requirement for Social Security benefits, although to be eligible for "totalization" a worker must be employed in the United States for, at least, a year and a half.  Initial Social Security benefits are then pro-rated, reflecting the number years of employment in the United States.  Currently, Chile is the only Latin American country with which the United States has a totalization agreement that is in effect.  The United States has signed such an agreement with Mexico, but the President has yet to submit it for Congressional review.

Thus, what is different about Mexico is not the framework of the agreement, but simply how many people we might expect to affected.  Because of immigration, we can expect a larger percentage of people covered by a US/Mexico totalization agreement to be those who have paid into both systems, working first in Mexico, then in the US, compared to other countries. Still, what matters from a broad policy perspective is simply how equitable and costly the agreement will be.  And here, the Social Security Administration explains that the costs will be minimal:

An agreement with Mexico

  • An agreement with Mexico would save U.S. workers and their employers about $140 million in Mexican social security and health insurance taxes over the first 5 years of the agreement.
     
  • An agreement would also fill the gaps in benefit protection for U.S. workers who have worked in both countries, but not long enough in one or both countries to qualify for benefits.
     
  • Mexico is the second largest trading partner with the U.S. Agreements are already in effect with Canada, the largest trading partner with the U.S., and 19 other countries.
     
  • With Mexico, the U.S. now has signed agreements with eight of its top ten trading partners. Many of these agreements have been in effect for nearly two decades. The two exceptions are China and Taiwan. By law, the U.S. could not enter into agreements with these two countries because they do not have generally applicable social security systems that pay periodic benefits or the actuarial equivalent.

 

Costs of an agreement with Mexico

  • Social Security actuaries estimate that a totalization agreement with Mexico would have a negligible long-range effect on the Trust Funds.
     
  • Costs to the U.S. Social Security system are estimated to average about $105 million per year over the first five years. These costs are for additional benefits to eligible U.S. and Mexican workers and reduced Social Security tax contributions under the dual taxation exemption.
     
  • To put this in perspective, in 2002, costs to the U.S. system for the existing agreement with Canada were about $197 million.

Caveats

Now, we have to keep in mind that this is the Bush Administration we're talking about.  So we shouldn't necessarily simply accept these figures.  But neither should we ignore them.  Rather, we should look for the best possible critical analysis-and we should look for potential fixes for any problems encountered that will preserve the common-sense benefits already found in dozens of other totalization agreements.

Indeed, in September 2003, the Genaral Accounting Office (GAO) issued a report [PDF] on the proposed agreement, along with a highlight of its findings [PDF].  This report was issued in response to a request by by Clay Shaw, Jr., Chair of the Subcommittee on Social Security in the Committee on Ways and Means and James Sensenbrenner, Jr., Chair of Committee on the Judiciary.

The highlights noted:

Why GAO Did This Study

Totalization agreements foster international commerce, protect benefits for persons who have worked in foreign countries, and eliminate dual social security taxes that employers and their employees pay when they operate and reside in countries with parallel social security systems. Because Mexicans are believed to represent a large share of the millions of unauthorized workers present in the United States, a totalization agreement with Mexico has raised concerns that they would become newly eligible for social security benefits. To shed light on the possible impacts, you asked GAO to (1) describe the Social Security Administration's (SSA) processes for developing the agreement with Mexico, (2) explain how the agreement might affect the payment of benefits to Mexican citizens, and (3) assess the cost estimate for such an agreement."

So, the very sorts of things that made the Mexico/US totalization agreement potentially different spurred Congress to ask the GAO for this report.

What GAO Found

SSA has no written policies or procedures it follows when entering into totalization agreements, and the actions it took to assess the integrity and compatibility of Mexico's social security system were limited and neither transparent nor well-documented. SSA followed the same procedures for the proposed Mexican agreement that it used in all prior agreements. SSA officials told GAO that they briefly toured Mexican facilities, observed how its automated systems functioned, and identified the type of data maintained on Mexican workers. However, SSA provided no information showing that it assessed the reliability of Mexican earnings data and the internal controls used to ensure the integrity of information that SSA will rely on to pay social security benefits.

The proposed agreement will likely increase the number of unauthorized Mexican workers and family members eligible for social security benefits. Mexican workers who ordinarily could not receive social security retirement benefits because they lack the required 40 coverage credits for U.S. earnings could qualify for partial social security benefits with as few as 6 coverage credits. In addition, under the proposed agreement, more family members of covered Mexican workers would become newly entitled because the agreements usually waive rules that prevent payments to noncitizens' dependents and survivors living outside the United States.

The cost of such an agreement is highly uncertain. In March 2003, the Office of the Chief Actuary estimated that the cost of the Mexican agreement would be $78 million in the first year and would grow to $650 million (in constant 2002 dollars) in 2050. The actuarial cost estimate assumes the initial number of newly eligible Mexican beneficiaries is equivalent to the 50,000 beneficiaries living in Mexico today and would grow sixfold over time. However, this proxy figure does not directly consider the estimated millions of current and former unauthorized workers and family members from
Mexico and appears small in comparison with those estimates. The estimate also inherently assumes that the behavior of Mexican citizens would not change and does not recognize that an agreement would create an additional incentive for unauthorized workers to enter the United States to work and maintain documentation to claim their earnings under a false identity.

Although the actuarial estimate indicates that the agreement would not generate a measurable long-term impact on the actuarial balance of the trust funds, a subsequent sensitivity analysis performed at GAO's request shows that a measurable impact would occur with an increase of more than 25 percent in the estimate of initial, new beneficiaries. For prior agreements, error rates associated with estimating the expected number of new beneficiaries have frequently exceeded 25 percent, even in cases where uncertainties about the number of unauthorized workers were less prevalent. Because of the significant number of unauthorized Mexican workers in the United States, the estimated cost of the proposed totalization agreement is even more uncertain than in prior agreements.

In short, there's good reason to run a more rigorous analysis, and perhaps consider revising the agreement accordingly.  This is not to say that the current agreement would be a disaster-but "not being a disaster" is a pretty low standard to have, and we ought to do better.

Specifically, the GAO concluded:

What GAO Recommends

GAO recommends that SSA (1) establish a formal process to identify and assess risks of proposed agreements, (2) make future reports to the Congress on these agreements more consistent and informative, and (3) work with the Office of the Chief Actuary to improve the cost estimates for agreements. SSA disagreed that additional processes were needed to assess risks, but it agreed that cost estimates should be more consistent and that it should regularly re-examine the accuracy of its estimates.

Months before the GAO issued this report, however, part of the underlying problem was resolved-the problem having to do with undocumented workers being eligible for benefits if they moved back to Mexico.  This problem was eliminated-not in the totalization agreement, but in the underlying law, which was being revised in Congress over this same period of time with a variety of different measures combined into an omnibus revision bill.  This change was added to the bill in April, 2003, and was signed into law 11 months later (March 4, 2004) as the "Social Security Protection Act of 2004".  The signing announcement explained:

Prohibit Benefits to Persons Not Authorized to Work in the United States
  • Would provide that the payment of Title II benefits based on the earnings of any noncitizen would be precluded unless (1) the noncitizen had ever been issued an SSN indicating authorization to work in the United States, or (2) the noncitizen, at the time any quarters of coverage are earned, was admitted to the United States under a B1 visa (for business purposes) or D visa (crew member--e.g., for an airline).
  • Would be effective with respect to Social Security numbers issued on or after January 1, 2004.

This was a significant-but by no means "break the bank" expensive-oversight in the underlying law that was not addressed in the original totalization agreement.  Instead, it was addressed where it should have been--the underlying US law.  By changing the underlying law, the "Social Security Protection Act of 2004" removed the problem, not just from the proposed totalization agreement with Mexico, but from all other such agreements, past, present and future.  This provision was not part of the bill as originally introduced to the House on February 12, 2003, but it was added before the House approved its final version, and was part of the package throughout its consideration by the Senate, after which it was signed into law.

This is what sensible, responsible government processes look like.

This is what Ron Paul cannot stand.  He thrives on hysterical, wild-eyed accusations.  Especially when furriners (particularly dark-skinned ones) are involved.  Which brings us to...

Ron Paul's Hysterical Attacks

But that's where Part 2 begins.  Positing in a few hours, giving you time to digest all the above, and post questions and comments below.


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Kucinich considering run with Ron Paul? (0.00 / 0)
Perhaps the idea is that both Kucinich and Paul want an immediate exit from Iraq, no matter what?

But according to Huffingtonpost and other sources, Elizabeth Kucinich says her quixotic hubby would run on a ticket with Ron Paul. http://www.huffingto...

Shades of a Ralph Nader spoiler? Or a Lieberman who really really wants to be on a ticket?

Not a good plan.

PS Your "comments" link is very difficult to navigate. Must scroll down, down, down to find the sign-in. Then get to the story and scroll down, down, down to find the place to insert your comment. Might get more comments if it were easier to use.


One More Reason I Can't Support Kucinich (0.00 / 0)
Back In early 2002, I saw Kucinich speak at a conference in Southern California.  While all the other progressives were still mumbling, he was clearly challenging the very heart of the Bush agenda (which most others would even be able to clearly identify for at least another 18-24 months, at best).  As a result, I was a Kucinich man amongst all the Deaniacs during the 2004 cycle.

But this time out he seems to have really failed to grow, and that has resulted in him being much more reactive than pro-active on a number of fronts.  Not getting it on boycotting Fox is a prime example.  And flirting with Ron Paul is another.

Plus, anyone who thinks about third parties at this time is just begging for "crazy uncle" status.

Begging for it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The only good supporting Ron Paul .. (4.00 / 1)
is to throw a monkey wrench further into the Republican party nomination process .. If he raises $12 million this quarter ... just imagine the kind of advertising he can get out .. you know what his real appeal is? .. That the Rethugs dislike him more than even people like Paul R.  do .. the Wall Streeters among the Rethugs hate him .. because Ron Paul challenges their very way of life .. I am in no way endorsing Ron Paul ..  but I can see his value(Imagine if he somehow wins NH?)

not a Ron Paul fan (0.00 / 0)
but that said, I think what you are missing here is the idea of legalization of 12-20M illegal workers and what that then does with totalization agreement.  It's backdated legalization as far as I have read in the various CIR's (comprehensive immigration reforms).

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


Actually, Not (0.00 / 0)
The 2004 revisions mean that no Social Security payments before legalization will be counted.  So all those payments will be part of the price paid for legalization. 

Thus the most substantial connection between totalization and immigration reform will be that new American citizens will receive Social Security payments from Mexico when they retire.

Hmmm.  I wonder if Ron Paul will rail against that sort of international welfare state?

Somehow, I think not.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Actually yes (0.00 / 0)
I think you are referring to
SEC. 607. PRECLUSION OF SOCIAL SECURITY CREDITS FOR YEARS PRIOR TO ENUMERATION, of S.1348, S.1639.

you're referring to the modifications of section 214 of the Social security act to not issue credits to any SS# before 2007.

Well, SS# would have been already issued to any guest worker Visa holder so if they were illegal in the country they would qualify AND it issued a SS# to any "Z Visa" which were doled out in mass and thus would qualify regardless if they met any of the other criteria to become legal workers.

Major major loopholes and as it was this was a major debate in the amendments.

There is another major issue with the great sounding claim of "back taxes" but the devil in the details of US tax code implies those back taxes might actually result in a refund with a payment of zero. 

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


[ Parent ]
No, Not (0.00 / 0)
First of all, I'm referring to legislation that was passed in 2003 and signed in 2004, which had to do with closing the loophole allowing credits for unauthorized earnings, in case a totalization agreement were passed.  It had nothing to do with immigration reform per se, and immigration reform was not then on the table.

Second, you write:

Well, SS# would have been already issued to any guest worker Visa holder so if they were illegal in the country they would qualify

But the amended language from H.R.743, the Social Security Protection Act of 2004, made unauthorized earnings inapplicable to any further accounting.  It doesn't matter if someone has a SS#, if they are in the country illegally, then those earnings don't count. 

Now, of course the law can be changed.  A new guest worker visa provision can be written any way that Congress and the President like, and that can be part of an immigration package.  But that does not reflect the existing underlying law, which was modified in the 2003-2004 time-frame, before the recent round of immigration reform legislation was taken up.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
uh, no, not exactly (0.00 / 0)
S.Rpt 108-176, pp. 23-24, This is the Senate Finance Committee report on H.R. 743:
Individuals who were never legally permitted to work in the United States should not be able to collect Social Security benefits on the basis of their illegal earnings. The Social Security program should not reward those who violate our immigration laws. This provision would begin to address this issue by limiting benefits to those who were authorized to work in the United States at some point in time.


This provision does not fully address this issue as individuals who begin working illegally and later obtain legal status could still use their illegal earnings to qualify for Social Security benefits

Q.E.D. and I most assuredly am NOT a Ron Paul fan.

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


[ Parent ]
Okay, Thanks (0.00 / 0)
It appears that the legislative summary I was relying on was imprecise on this point, and I appreciate the clarification.

But it still doesn't have anything to do with what Ron Paul was complaining about, except in fairly rare cases--where someone works illegally, then legally, and then goes back to Mexico to retire (or has suriving dependents there).  The vast majority of those who become legalized at some point would presumably being doing so in the process of becoming citizens, or at least permanent residents, and thus would not have anything to do with totalization agreements--except insofar as they would combine their earlier Mexican benefits--meaning that the net result would be more Mexican Social Security payments entering the US.  In confrast, it would be the leagalization process--not the totalization agreement--that would make them eligible for US Social Security benefits.

Furthermore, this can hardly be consided a magnet, or stimulus or anything like that, since it depends on eventually becoming legallized, which there is no guarantee of in advance, which is one of the biggest bugaboos.

Finally, I never accused you of being a Ron Paul supporter.  But you are making his position seem more reasonable than it is.

Above all, it's significant the passage you cite goes on to note:

This provision does not fully address this issue as individuals who begin working illegally and later obtain legal status could still use their illegal earnings to qualify for Social Security benefits. However, the Commissioner of Social Security has raised concerns
about SSA's ability to administer a more comprehensive approach. The Committee believes the proposal in the bill is the best approach to this issue at this time, but the Committee will continue to consider ways to more fully address this issue in the future.

There's that old reality-based community factor sticking its nose into things again. 

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
adsf (0.00 / 0)
Sure, they are saying it's a potential budget buster and should look at it in the future, i.e. if legalization is enacted, i.e. of course they would be able to declare their unauthorized work of previous years. 

I am a fact based person, very much into GAO, CBO, statistical projection reports and this was an is an issue w.r.t. CIR (comprehensive immigration reform) bills.  I'll give two reports, which show projections as problematic.

CBO (Congressional Budget Office), which has a fiscal loss at $78 Billion by 2016, $48 billion from 207-2016 just from Social service benefits not including tax credits, and note this is before benefits really kick in, the CBO punted on after 2016 projections.

The most extreme projections, but there is some valid analysis here Heritage Foundation which has claims costs as high as 2.6 trillion. 

While I believe the Heritage foundation report is flawed, they do not take into account social and fiscal mobility, I also think the CBO passed the buck by refusing to look past 2016. 

That's the problem, this entire arena is so full of opinion, philosophy, name calling, objective analysis is taken as a full on frontal assault and myself...I am a numbers person, regardless if that goes against my philosophical grain.



NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


[ Parent ]
Now You ARE Starfting To Sound Like A Ron Paul Supporter (0.00 / 0)
Since you're persisting in talking about a completely different subject--the costs associated with a particular structure of immigration reforms--as if it were totalization.

What's up with that?

And to even mention the Heritage Foundation as if anything they ever do can be considered objective analysis...

Seriously.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
adsf (0.00 / 0)
and that is the Ron Paul talking point, he is talking about the possibility of future claims by unauthorized workers.  It's right on his website. 

This is my last retort for I don't enjoy empty argument.  You wrote a two part series claiming something that frankly isn't so.  I put up the actual details of the bill as well as some CBO projections to correct it and tried to point out some details as to why, why this is an issue for them,  versus experience yet another insult post on this topic.  EOM.

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


[ Parent ]
But I Wasn't Refering To Ron Paul's Talking Point NOW! (0.00 / 0)
I was quite clearly referring to arguments he made in 2003 and 2004, about one government act--the US-Mexico Totalization Agreement--and you are completely ignoring the whole content of my argument to argue about another related, but quite distinct issue four years later?  And you are accussing ME of empty argument?

Sorry, dude, but you've got a bad, bad case of Ron Paulitis!

A couple of months ago he wrote a column warning about congressional take-over of health care.  It started off with a couple of sentences about SCHIP, and then launched into a long tirade about psychological screening and the prescription of behavior-modifying drugs.

Moral?  Just because Ron Paul connects two issues doesn't necessarily mean they are connected, or that they are connected in the way he says they are.

Ron Paul is a master of recasting every issue that comes along into his pre-determined slots.  And here you have fallen for it, "big time," as America's #2 war criminal would say.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
no I have not (0.00 / 0)
please calm down and I'll put my Ron Paul is not the answer piece I wrote a while ago, again, which gets a lot of reads.  I really find the inability to accept the details I originally wrote and ad hominem attacks to be quite against what they want on this site.

These two issues are connected and they were very connected in '03/04.  It is not just Ron Paul saying it, that is why Grassley got in the modifications and many of them have additional positions on this issue.

Bush is the one pushing for mandatory psychological "testing" and mandatory "treatment" under his privatized no health care plan.

My pointing out some details of course does not endorse Ron Paul.  I just happened to be aware of the ongoing arguments on the Mexico totalization agreement, from back to '04.

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


[ Parent ]
I'm Not Saying You ARE A Ron Paul Supporter (0.00 / 0)
But you are buying into his arguments much more than you realize.  And it's not an ad hominem attack to point this out.  (Ad hominem is an attack in place of a rational argument, a critical remark that follows from an argument might not be a box of chocolates, but it's not an ad hominem attack, even if you have a response to the argument itself.  Which, ironically, I have yet to see from you on this point: you are using Ron Paul's arguments today to obscure his past dishonesty.)

Furthermore, once you gave me a specific link to specific congressional records, I agreed with the point you were making, and acknowledged that I had been depending on a less clear summary.

But you are confusing arguments being made now with arguments being made then, and you simply can't do that if the purpose is to criticize the arguments as presented--which was precisely what I was doing.

It remains the case that totalization is much more about ensuring fair taxation than it is about anything else, and the issue of benefits for unauthorized work is much more about legalization irrespective of totalization.

But this distinction is entirely beside the point if we simply look at the arguments as presented in 2003 and 2004, which was the subject of my post.  Ron Paul was arguing then that $1 billion a year in 2050 was going to bankrupt Social Security, and this argument is patently bogus.  The fact that other concerns have since emerged which are less transparently bogus merely provides cover for his bogosity.  It does not redeem it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
and I'm saying (0.00 / 0)
ok, let's say $1B a yr is truly bogus, but considering how neo-conservatives claim that SS should be privatized, is about to go bust (hello Medicaid/Medicare, we'll just ignore the real one)...coming from this line of political spin it is inconsistent to add more deficit via a totalization agreement with such a low PPP nation-state such as Mexico.

I am saying that the totalization agreement with
Mexico is a serious budget buster because you MUST look at the open border agenda as well as the NAU agenda along with it and suspect since Ron Paul is "no amnesty" (except of course when corporations want to flood the labor market with guest worker Visa labor under their control) it's more connected that you would think.

From the conservative view point doing a totalization agreement with any low PPP nation is a serious issue, although the way the US dollar in tanking, our debt imploding we may soon have the same PPP ratio so it all might be mute.  But considering current PPP, totalization agreements with 3rd world nations is just plain not a good thing from a budget deficit perspective.

Portable retirement benefits IS a corporate agenda being promoted, global, and doing that with such a low PPP nation-state such as Mexico is fiscally irresponsible, especially, especially due to the open border agenda which they are shoving down people's throats as I type.  You cannot disconnect the two when looking at future deficit projections and that is what it's all about.  Come hell or high water the globalists/open border people are determined, one way or another to gain control over migration, immigration policy and that's when this thing balloons.

Overall Ron Paul is full of shit, hypocritical, spin master and everything I think you're trying to point out, but in this little corner of statistics and legislation, there is potential big deficit trouble and that's where we are disagreeing.

Overall what I see going on in politics is who is the best hoodwinker to promote the destruction of working America and frankly it's a tough call, there are so many contenders, including Ron Paul!

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The Economic Populist


[ Parent ]
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