A Politics Without Logic

by: Chris Bowers

Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 14:36


This is the most depressing passage I have read in some time:

President Bush's speech in Cincinnati and the changes in policy that have come forth since the Administration began broaching this issue some weeks ago have made my vote easier. Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first and placing highest priority on a simple, clear requirement for unlimited inspections, I will take the President at his word that he will try hard to pass a UN resolution and will seek to avoid war, if at all possible.

Because bipartisan support for this resolution makes success in the United Nations more likely, and therefore, war less likely, and because a good faith effort by the United States, even if it fails, will bring more allies and legitimacy to our cause, I have concluded, after careful and serious consideration, that a vote for the resolution best serves the security of our nation. If we were to defeat this resolution or pass it with only a few Democrats, I am concerned that those who want to pretend this problem will go way with delay will oppose any UN resolution calling for unrestricted inspections.

This is a very difficult vote. This is probably the hardest decision I have ever had to make -- any vote that may lead to war should be hard -- but I cast it with conviction.

That passage is from Hillary Clinton's floor speech in favor of S.J. Res. 45, A Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq.  It is remarkable that a congressional resolution entitled "A Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq," is justified on the grounds that it will improve diplomatic efforts. What part of "Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq," wasn't clear in the title? The text of the legislation, which isn't very long, also states "[t]he President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate." To argue that this legislation serves to further diplomacy, rather than to authorize the use of force no matter the outcome of diplomatic efforts and no matter the seriousness with which such efforts were engaged, is to cling to an incontrovertibly false argument. Arguing that the Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq authorized the use of military force against Iraq is as straightforward as an argument can be.

More in the extended entry.

Chris Bowers :: A Politics Without Logic
The self-delusion and / or lying that warps the meaning of the Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq as somehow not authorizing the use of military force against Iraq is not even what bothers me the most about this passage. Even beyond denying the fundamental principles of logic, what really bothers me is the argument that if Democrats do not vote for this bill in sufficient numbers, then they will be the ones sabotaging diplomacy. In fact, as the opening sentence of the second paragraph makes clear, Clinton offers this as the primary justification for her vote. Clinton's argument is that if large numbers of Democrats offer bipartisan support to the Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq, then war is less likely. Not only is this an exhortation to her fellow Democrats to be more hawkish, but this actually blames those who opposed the war for causing the war because they didn't back diplomatic efforts strongly enough.

This, in a nutshell, is Washington bipartisanship. Deny the fundamental principles of logic by claiming that a resolution authorizing the use of military force in Iraq did not authorize the use of military force in Iraq. Urge your fellow Democrats to move to the right. Top it off by placing the blame for the start of the war on those who opposed the war. It an extreme level of mendacity that twice denies both logic and common sense. What has been the source of this mendacity? Why, of course, it is identity politics:

McAuliffe declared that under no circumstances would she take back her vote.  "A woman?" he almost yelled.  "Can you imagine?"

In a politics without logic, the only thing left is identity and power. For reasons steeped in identity politics, Hillary Clinton has been fundamentally dishonest about Iraq with Democrats during virtually this entire campaign, both by repeatedly claiming that she didn't vote for the war in late 2002 and then claiming for a long time that she would end the war even though her Iraq plans will leave thousands, even tens of thousands, of troops in Iraq. It took six months of pressure from the residual forces campaign for her to even start admitting that she would remove most, but not all troops. Even then, however, it seemingly has not resonated much with the Democratic electorate, because identity is all that matters in the electorate, too. Clinton still leads nationwide.

Like Matt, I miss the days when we talked about electability, especially since things aren't going too well on that front, either.


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As someone who must (0.00 / 0)
know choose between Obama and Clinton (since I doubt Edwards will be very viable by the time he gets to Florida) I appreciate your analysis here. 


The Florida dynamic (0.00 / 0)
Fladem,

What is the dynamic in Florida.  I imagine that Hillary has an edge, given the large senior citizen NY transplant population.  However, FL also has a sizable young population with some very big universities.  It is also a very diverse state.  I've appreciated your polling analysis in the past.  Does Obama have a legitimate shot in Florida, assuming he wins NV and SC?


[ Parent ]
Florida (4.00 / 3)
is incredibly complicated.  I would watch five groups:

1. The Hispanic Vote:  The CW is that African Americans have trouble with Hispanic voters.  Watch Nevada for an early indication of the accuracy of this assumption.

2. The Jewish Vote:  This is a significant percentage of the vote in a Democratic Primary.  Clinton has historically been VERY strong with this group (which is concentrated in the two counties north of Miami).

3. The Bubba vote:  In between the cities are areas that are conservative as Alabama.  Edwards might be useful  in siphoning off some of this vote, particularly in the panhandle.

4. The African American vote: What will the turnout be?  African Americans may make up as much as 25% of the electorate.

5. White families living in the I-4 corridor.  This group decided that Bush would be President in '04 when it broke for him late.  The I-4 corridor (which stretches from ST Pete, through Tampa and Orlando and ends in Daytona) is the home to a significant number of independents, and is younger than the conventional Florida stereotype. 

My guess is Obama needs his margin in 4 to offset the Clinton margins in 1 and 2.  This means the primary will be decided in the I-4 corridor.

I haven't thought a lot about this, but on first blush I think Obama can win.  Will he is another question.
 


[ Parent ]
Thanks. That's very helpful. n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
I-4 (0.00 / 0)
Last night NOW's (the PBS news program, not the women's organization) Maria Hinajossa proviled Latinos in the I-4 corridor, but it was more focused on their reactions to Republican xenophobic/anti-Hispanic rhetoric.

"I think the economic logic behind dumping a load of toxic waste in the lowest wage country is impeccable and we should face up to that."
-Lawrence Summers


[ Parent ]
link (0.00 / 0)
Here's a link:

http://www.pbs.org/n...

"I think the economic logic behind dumping a load of toxic waste in the lowest wage country is impeccable and we should face up to that."
-Lawrence Summers


[ Parent ]
There's no choice (0.00 / 0)
I won't be voting Hillary--not in the primary, not in the general.  This is a perfect example of why. 

Here's an idea: how about an Obama/Bloomberg indie ticket?

The Politics of Bruno S.


[ Parent ]
Broder/Russert '08 (4.00 / 1)
Please, there is no need for Bloomberg in '08.  The only constituency for this would be among the Broders and Russerts.

Obama has an even chance at the Dem not.  If he comes out short, I expect him to campaign for Hillary.  I'm hoping it doesn't come to that though.


[ Parent ]
Re: A Politics Without Logic (0.00 / 1)
This is all very nice, but even Obama admitted he might not have voted against the AUMF if he had been in the Senate. In general this is standard Obama procedure. Say you're against something, but don't vote against it. Same thing happened in the Iran amendment to the "Defense Authorization Act".

Obama Quote:
"But, I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports,'' Mr. Obama said. "What would I have done? I don't know. What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made."


Except that ... (0.00 / 0)
Hillary could have chosen to look at the NIE .. and didn't .. heck .. didn't Bill Nelson exort her to look at it?

[ Parent ]
His analysis at the time (0.00 / 0)
was the most spot-on of any speech or commentary on the war at the time.  If he had access to Senate intelligence reports, the NIE, it most likely would have reinforced his decision to oppose it.

[ Parent ]
Re: His analysis at the time (0.00 / 0)
If he had access to Senate intelligence reports, the NIE, it most likely would have reinforced his decision to oppose it.

Interesting theory.  But this is opposite to what Obama himself has said.  He stated clearly in case he had access to Senate intelligence reports, "What would I have done? I don't know."  It's great to see you have so much confidence in Obama, but I bet Obama would know how he would've acted in that situation better than you would.


[ Parent ]
Context (0.00 / 0)
Also, keep in mind that this quote was a response to a question asked about John Kerry and John Edwards' positions on the war at the Democratic convention in 2004.  Obama has said he didn't want to undercut his party's nominee.  I would've chosen better words, but these are the exception rather than the rule in Obama's anti-war rhetoric, which has been pretty constant since 2002.

[ Parent ]
So what you're saying is... (0.00 / 0)
...even with less information than Clinton, Dodd, Edwards and Biden had, Obama got it right and they all got it wrong?

Because, reading the part of that quote right after your bold text, it seems pretty clear that Obama made up his mind based on available evidence and reasonable presumptions about Iraqi behavior, and we all know the Senate didn't have any intelligence capable of upending that calculation.

Really, was the Senate sitting on some secret document highlighting secular Iraq's extensive weapons trasfers to Wahabist al Qaeda, (providing the only delivery system Iraq could have found to attack US soil)?  Was there a classified communique claiming that, despite our massive military and surveillance budgets and the presence of weapons inspectors, those crafty Iraqi government agents were just too sneaky for us to find advanced weapons laboratories and stockpiles?

Your argument is without merit.  'Politics without logic,' as it were.  Try again.

Yeah I blog.


[ Parent ]
What's really depressing (0.00 / 0)
is the erudite and analytical Chris Bowers writing this sentence:

"For reasons steeped in identity politics, Hillary Clinton has been fundamentally dishonest about Iraq..."

Bush and Cheney and their ilk were fundamentally dishonest about Iraq, but Senator Clinton and other Democrats who voted for that resolution, I think your claim is a bridge too far, Chris. Further, I don't see how it's steeped in identity politics - and I don't see how you give a State Senator in Illinois a pass in this, when he too has said he'd keep troops in Iraq, just like Edwards and Clinton.

You suggesting that Hillary Clinton voted yes on that resolution because she's a woman is a sexist statement, bad as her vote undeniably was.

I agree with your general take on bipartisanship - we surrender too damned much - but in looking at the two remaining candidates, the one you're so heartily attacking here is the one most likely to reach across the aisle - and smack a few Republicans around on the way to a new progressive agenda domestically.


What is your proof .. (0.00 / 0)
that Hillary will smack a few Republicans around? .. Face it .. the DC Dems don't do that(though they should)

[ Parent ]
Her domestic agenda (0.00 / 0)
is the proof - it's not a middle-ground, compromise platform. It's about using the Democratic majority over the first two years of the administration to change our national policies.

It's all policy.


[ Parent ]
No (4.00 / 3)
"You suggesting that Hillary Clinton voted yes on that resolution because she's a woman is a sexist statement, bad as her vote undeniably was."

No, I am arguing that she maintains a bizarre logic to justify her vote because her campaign fears blowback because she is a woman. To put it another way, they aren't apologizing for the vote because they think it would look bad if a woman apologized for something like this.

[ Parent ]
But seriously... (0.00 / 0)
...you're saying this about her being a woman.

By late '06 her position has almost 100% in line with where John Kerry was when he ran for President. And we ALL lined up with him as the one to end the war, didn't we?

So why so tough on Clinton, why this insistence that she voted the way she did to look tough as a woman?

I think it's interesting Chris that you're trying to bring the Iraq vote back to the fore post-NH - this comment thread (but not your post, to be fair) also reads like over-the-top Clinton hatred by a dwindling group, and I guess it needs a valid manifestation now that the sad, personality-based attacks ended with "likeable enough." Hence, Iraq?


[ Parent ]
I think we all needed a reminder (4.00 / 1)
Iraq has taken too much of a backseat in this election recently. And it was do everyone some good to remember that Hillary Clinton voted for and supported a war of choice against a country that did not pose a threat to the United States (or anyone else). As did John Edwards.

As for the gender issue - her freaking campaign manager admits that she, as a woman, can not apologize for the war vote. I think this is the wrong choice, but the reasoning does make sense. Whether or not her gender (coupled with presidential ambitions) influence her decision to support the AUMF in the first place - that I don't think we can pretend to know.

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra


[ Parent ]
Iraq and the candidates (0.00 / 0)
We lined up behind Kerry in '04 because he was all we had. We'll line up behind Clinton in '08 if she is all we have between us and another *&^% Republican. But that doesn't mean that her weaselly triangulating behavior doesn't stink rotten. It does.

Can it happen here?

[ Parent ]
OK then, so... (0.00 / 0)
Who's your candidate - the Senator who also voted for it or the state legislator who says he might well have voted for it - two guys who have plans for Iraq roughly equal to Senator Clinton's?

Honestly, I know what you're all trying to do here - led by Chris, who suggests he somehow "just read" the above passage - but it won't wash.

There's the tiniest of slivers between Clinton-Edwards-Obama on this issue (despite Edwards' silly apology) in terms of policy going forward, and none of them (or any Democrats besides the active saber-rattlers like Lieberman) can be blamed directly for taking this country into a stupid disaster of a war.


[ Parent ]
Can't be blamed? (4.00 / 1)
I didn't realize Senators could not be blamed for their votes in the Senate.

Everyone who voted in favor of the AUMF can be blamed for doing their part in leading our nation to war against Iraq. And your claim that Obama may have voted for the AUMF is weak at best.

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra


[ Parent ]
It's not a "claim" (0.00 / 0)
it's from the man's own lips.

[ Parent ]
I would genuinely appreciate a source (0.00 / 0)
I know it can be a pain in the ass to track down a quote when you need it, but I really would like to see it so I can appreciate the exact wording and context. I'll look as well.


"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
This TPM post (4.00 / 1)
refers to it - doesn't have the exact line, but it's been pretty widely distributed:

http://tpmelectionce...


[ Parent ]
Also... (4.00 / 1)
This WaPo blog post has pretty good round-up of Obama on Iraq. My point is, he gets a pass and HRC gets slammed as if she led the nation to war. Plenty of inconsistencies in Obama's statements too:

http://blog.washingt...


[ Parent ]
Thank you for the links (0.00 / 0)
This seems like minor political word-splicing on the parts of both Obama and Bill Clinton.
I don't blame bBll for bringing it up in an attempt to undermine Obama's campaign, and I don't blame Obama for saying what he did in an attempt not to undermine Kerry's campaign.

I find it very difficult to imagine that, all politics aside, Obama would have said what he did. Just as I don't imagine Bill - all politics aside - would have tried to paint Obama the way he did.

I don't mind reading between the lines when it comes to political campaigns. I understand it is a dangerous thing to do - very easy to insert one's own bias - but I find it necessary. Taking every word literally simply does not paint an accurate picture.

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra


[ Parent ]
And you wonder why ... (4.00 / 1)
a lot of Dems don't like Clinton .. your whole point about the AUMF is why I don't like her one bit(add in people like Terry McAuliffe and their leaving the DNC worse off).  The Clintons are all about themselves.  Nothing more.  The sad thing is, the Clintons have name recognition and she gets to coat tail on the relatively prosperous time while Bill was in office.  Look at how many registered Dems voted for Clinton in NH.  I bet a lot of them don't even know how she voted re: AUMF.  Why do you think Obama does better among people paying attention(and Edwards does even better than Obama in that category)?

The MSM (4.00 / 3)
has decided that Iraq is not important anymore.  Obama needs to bring it back to Iraq, and he needs to hit Clinton hard on this.  Unlike John Edwards, HRC doesn't think she did anything wrong on AUMF.

[ Parent ]
Question (0.00 / 0)
What can Progressives do?  Are we strong, organized, big enough to make an impact in the primaries?  It seems like it took a lot for some Progressives to come around to endorsing Edwards (still with some hesitancy). 

Do we push all out for Edwards?  Try to get him in the media, get his positions to people, put all our weight behind him - whether the outcome looks bleak or not?

Do we campaign against Clinton?  Get out true facts and info to voters?  (the push for ignoring issues and debating gender and age is rampant on the blogs I read.  Most Clinton supporters are asserting she is the most progressive as if it is a fact - and how will people know without Progressives jumping into the dialogue).

Do we simply go with Clinton and not put up a fight?  Do we abandon Edwards for Obama?

And yes I know the Progressives/netroots do not all want Edwards over Clinton, but can we at least establish who would be best for us?  Or is it too late?


No, it's not too late (4.00 / 1)
I'm an Obama supporter, but I have to say that Edwards' coverage in the MSM has been near criminal.  As an Obama supporter, I've decided not to pressure Edwards supporters into joining a "Stop Hillary" movement.  That's not what our campaign is about.  I'm voting and volunteering for Obama because I believe he is our most viable option to enact positive, progressive change in Washington.  If Edwards supporters are determined to stick by him and fight against the long odds to try and get him in, I wish you all the best.  If you think Obama is more viable and will be a better option than HRC, welcome aboard.

Supporting a candidate is an intensely personal decision.  It's remarkable that the Hillary inevitability narrative has come back to the fore after 1 win.  Obama is not out of this by any means.  I think if people looked beyond the kumbaya cliche, they would see a man who has been committed to progressive change for his entire adult life.  If you're determined to stick with Edwards, I wish you the best.  I've been very impressed with his campaign and what it has brought to the debate.  An Obama-Edwards two-person race would be ideal, with the debate being much more substantive.  It's unfortunate that it's not going to happen.


[ Parent ]
Always this way (0.00 / 0)
It sucks, but that is how it always is with the media.  Four years ago I was pissed that Edwards was getting all the press after Iowa instead of Clark, even though Clark beat Edwards in NH.

[ Parent ]
Clark skipped IA to focus on NH (0.00 / 0)
and still only beat Edwards by a point, who had practically no organization in NH prior to his 2nd place finish in IA. Clark had actually been ahead of Kerry and close to Dean in earlier polls in NH, so his "win" over Edwards was actually a huge disappointment.

Join us at the Missouri community blog Show Me Progress!

[ Parent ]
True (0.00 / 0)
But the Edwards bump into NH was purely media driven, and it kept going from there.

My real point is this always happens and it is very obvious and annoying when you are on the other side.  It never seems so bad when you are the beneficiary.  After all, you can make a pretty strong case that the media should be ignoring Edwards by this point; certainly as strong as the case against Clark.


[ Parent ]
This is the case Obama needs to make ... (0.00 / 0)
This needs to be the campaign's "closing message"; in fact, this is the only commercial that needs to be made for the Dem primaries. Barack's speech and thoughts in 2002, versus Hillary's decision to be a thoughtless hawk and to cover her ass.

Cut the crap with Jesse Jackson, Jr., et al. The Clinton surrogates' ham-fisted racial nonsense speaks for itself.

The 'Change' message needs to be about something concrete -- the establishment groupthink that lands us in stupid wars and/or gives us horrible fiscal and tax policy that benefits only the economic elites. Clinton is front and center in both those camps.

That's Obama's appeal -- that he's not a career member of that group, and that HE WAS RIGHT about Iraq.

If he and his campaign don't make that case, another pol will go unaccountable for his/her decisions that resulted in the deaths and maiming of upwards of 15,000 US troops and at least 150,000 dead Iraqis, not to mention at a cost of at least $500 Billion, and probably upwards of a trillion.


Neever had problem with vote (4.00 / 2)
I know I'm hugely at odds with general opinion, here, but I've never had a problem with the vote itself.  Applying pressure to get the weapons inspectors back into Iraq was not in and of itself a bad thing.  Even with hindsight, it is good that we actually learned he didn't have WMDs.

The problem is Bush pulled out the inspectors and started a war, anyway.

The problem for Clinton, Kerry, Edwards and all the other pro-war democrats is they SUPPORTED THE ACTUAL WAR.

Where were the speeches against pulling out the weapon inspectors?  Why weren't the Democrats united against Bush breaking his word and attacking Iraq despite its compliance? 

My anger lies with the initial (and continued!) support of the war, not the vote itself.


You make some good points (0.00 / 0)
but I think we could have gotten the weapon inspectors back into Iraq without giving away the ghost.

It was blatantly obvious by the time of the vote in 2002 that this was being done to improve Republicans' chances at the ballot box. It would definitely not have been easy, and Democrats may have lost another Senate seat or two, but in the end that is what leadership is supposed to look like.

Moreover, Senators had the ability to find the truth if they wanted it. That they didn't work to find it, publicize it, show it, is to their moral discredit.

The larger fact is, the Clintons were part of the establishment that led to the CW that Saddam had WMD.

I, to this day, rue my unblinking and uncritical belief in our establishment back in 2002. I bought it all, hook, line, sinker, and then some. But I was in my mid-20s (I feel much older now, for so many reasons besides actual age) and naive. We ought to be able to expect more from those that want us to elect them to the highest office in the land.

This is why I have so much respect for people like Jim Webb and Barack Obama and Russ Feingold that were right on the merits back when it was unpopular to hold such a position. It's why I now support Obama, despite a little uneasiness with the nebulousness of what his candidacy is really about.

(Just to be clear, I 100% agree with what you wrote after the first paragraph, and it's actually an opinion I haven't heard bandied about here much -- so, thanks for airing it).


[ Parent ]
Weapons Inspectors (0.00 / 0)
Getting weapons inspectors into Iraq was not a bad idea. It was not a crucial, do or die decision - but it wasn't a bad idea.

But when you say...

I've never had a problem with the vote itself.  Applying pressure to get the weapons inspectors back into Iraq was not in and of itself a bad thing.

...I think you are mixing two issues together.
One issue is that of applying pressure to get the most thorough weapons inspections possible. I see no problem with any Senator voting in favor of this goal.

The other issue is that of declaring a war of choice. The AUMF vote was not a vote to put pressure on Iraq to comply with weapons inspectors. Is that not crystal clear? It was a vote to give authority to Bush to make whatever decision HE saw fit. I refuse to believe that it was a mystery to any thinking person what Bush's decision would be.

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra


[ Parent ]
Good point (0.00 / 0)
Technically, it wasn't a declaration of war.  But then, nothing since WWII has been, so that doesn't help me much, does it.

I refuse to believe that it was a mystery to any thinking person what Bush's decision would be.

Clearly, you win with the weight of history on your side.  And I think you might be correct even in the context of the moment, but that is much less clear.  We all have our biases and Bush lived up to the biases of the anti-war crowd.

For myself, it didn't become "crystal clear" for about another month or so after the vote that Bush couldn't be trusted with that power.


[ Parent ]
In fairness (0.00 / 0)
My perspective was from a radical-left vantage point at the time. I was attending protests as soon as even the idea of invading Iraq was first brought up. It surely must have looked  differently to other observers. So, in fairness, 'crystal clear' is an overstatement.

This is a reasonable excuse/explanation for the average voter - but not an excuse for a sitting Senator, who no doubt understood excatly where the AUMF was headed.

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra


[ Parent ]
Afghanistan (0.00 / 0)
Just out of curiosity, were you also against the invasion of Afghanistan?  I still believe that was the correct course of action.

[ Parent ]
The AUMF vote is irrelevant (0.00 / 0)
Democratic primary voters haved moved on, whether you like it or not. They have concluded that any Democrat will get us out of Iraq.  The details of who supported what and when they supported it don't matter anymore--especially since Obama never had to cast a meaningful prewar vote.

Handicap in General (4.00 / 1)
Despite my post above supporting the vote itself, the narrative is set and the vote really hurts in the general election.  Kerry's vote really hurt him against Bush.  Every line of attack he tried failed because it was too nuanced and easy to call flip-flopping.  Edwards and Clinton have the same problem.  (Edwards less so on this account, but his apology opens other avenues for attack.)

It is much, much easier to make the case against the war when you don't have to defend the vote at the same time.

BTW, this is why senators make bad candidates in general.  There are just too many votes to defend, many of them contradictory on the surface.


[ Parent ]
Actually (4.00 / 1)
when Kerry spoke clearly and critically about the war in late fall '04, he rose in the polls dramatically. His problem wasn't voting for the AUMF and then later criticizing the war. It was that he kept couching his criticisms in circuitous paragraphs. "I voted for the 87 billion before I voted against it" was a gift to the GOP.

Join us at the Missouri community blog Show Me Progress!

[ Parent ]
AUMF could not have been more transparent (0.00 / 0)
A vote for the AUMF was a vote for a hawkish, almost imperialist US foreign policy. It was a vote against the will of the world, and the will of our closest allies. It was a vote that threatened Mid East stability. And it was a vote that resulted in the deaths of (at least) 150,000 people. And Hillary Clinton not only voted yes, but urged others to do so as well.

It was a war of choice - Iraq did not pose an imminent threat. And it would have been hard to argue that Iraq posed even a long-term threat. It was under our thumb (sanctions, no-fly zones, etc). Yes, I too believed Iraq may have had biological or chemical weapons - many countries do. But that did not mean that Iraq was any more threatening than other nations outside of our circle of allies. This should all be old, old news. It was old news 5 years ago.

That Hillary Clinton will not apologize for this vote is almost unbelievable. I don't care who you are - when you vote in favor of an authorization for a war of choice that results in the deaths of more than 150,000 people - you god damn better apologize. It is really the least she could do.

If Hillary Clinton is the nominee, I will not vote for her in the general election. This is the reason why. 

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra


Can I put you down (0.00 / 0)
as a McCain voter then?  That would make a lot of sense.

[ Parent ]
McCain? (0.00 / 0)
How does that make any sense?

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
No comparison between Clinton and McCain on Iraq (0.00 / 0)
Instead of calling it identity politics, why don't we just call it sexism in the United States.

There's only a 6-point difference between Clinton and Obama on progressive voting on Iraq. Clinton rates at 76.32 and Obama 83.33.

I have no respect for people who say they won't vote if Clinton is the nominee. McCain scored a 16.22 progressive voting score on Iraq compared to Clinton's 76.32 and Obama's 83.33.

Clinton 76.32
Obama 83.33
McCain 16.22

Are you really going to let the 16.22 guy win if the 76.32 woman is nominated over the 83.33?

Furthermore, McCain's lifetime progressive rating is 13.72!

Clinton 91.29
Obama 88.76
McCain 13.72

Defense only makes up 10% of the overall voting on Capitol Hill. There are many more domestic issues. How can you let a 13.72 lifetime progressive rating win over a 91.29?!

Banned for posting five straight diaries.


[ Parent ]
I don't have to back up my tough talk (0.00 / 0)
Because I live in California. In some alternate universe where Rudy (or some other jackass) had even an outside chance of winning my state, then I would vote for Hillary.

Also - one particular rating of progressive voting makes little to no difference to me. I study these candidates pretty thoroughly - I'll give them my own scores thank you very much.

I don't understand where this McCain thing comes from? I'd vote Green perhaps, but voting McCain is so outside my radar I can't even comprehend it.

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra


[ Parent ]
I'm with LandStander on this one (0.00 / 0)
1. I give my own importance to various issues, so my idea of who is more progressive is different than probably yours or progressive punch's idea. It's about priorities and war and peace are, or at least should be, huge priorities. On that issue, I go TOTALLY Obama.

2. I have no respect for people who say they have no respect for other progressives.

3. The general election has not come yet. Many will be STRONGLY encouraged to vote for one side or the other and we'll see many of those who said they would never vote for someone (like I would believe many anti-immigration GOPers said they wouldn't vote McCain) actually go back on their word, so just chill.


[ Parent ]
Clinton would campaign (0.00 / 0)
for Obama, and Obama would campaign for Clinton - exactly right.

[ Parent ]
Helping a Republican win (0.00 / 0)
by not voting is not a respectable progressive position.

Banned for posting five straight diaries.

[ Parent ]
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