Framing Vs. Spinning Vs. Lying

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 16:21


Among other things, the discussion thread of my diary "Obama Praising Reagan--An Echo, Not A Choice???", again surfaced the confusion that falsely jumbles together framing, spinning and lying.  Because framing is so fundamental, so important, and still so badly misunderstood, I felt compelled to address it, with yet another attempt to set the record straight. 

Here's the basic picture:

Framing: 

A: "The glass is half full."
B: "The glass is half empty."

Both are objectively true, but represent different views.

Spinning:

A: "The glass is half empty."
B: "Why didn't you say it was half full?"
A: "But that's what I DID say!  They're both the same, you know."

Objective truth is involved, but it's being played with.  You don't lie outright, but you clearly mislead.  The sense in which what you say is true is not the sense in which you intend and expect to be taken.

Lying:

A: "The glass is half full."
B: "Why are you saying it's half empty?  You're such a pessimist!  Liberals are all pessimists!"

B is simply lying, and then generalizing from the lie.

The false equation of framing, spinning and lying comes in two particularly pernicious forms-those who make the false equation in order to attack framing, and those who make the false equation in order to support spinning and lying.  A couple of years back, I stopped posting at Booman Tribune, because Booman dogmatically insisted on this false equation, irrationally rejecting repeated solid arguments, not just from me, but also from a number of other diarists and commentators.

Now, here at OpenLeft, I'm getting it from the other side, from folks who are defending Obama's parroting of rightwing lies about Ronald Reagan as simple acts of "reframing."  Well, yes, technically, that's true, since lying is a form of framing, and recasting a lie in a somewhat different form is a form of reframing.

But there are important differences between the essence of lying and framing, and when you obscure those differences, what you're doing is spinning.  The best way I can think of to defend framing, and distinguish it from lying and spinning, is talk about where it comes from, and what it's all about-and then to show how deeply contradictory the arguments against it generally are, once you understand what it really is.

Paul Rosenberg :: Framing Vs. Spinning Vs. Lying
Framing = Contextualizing

Basically, framing is contextualizing, and because we are all creatures, embedded in creation, not gods set apart apart from it, we cannot escape the fact that all of our knowing is contextualized by our finitude, and our specific history, including the natural history of all our evolutionary past. This realization was first systematically developed in modern times by the nuerologists/psychologist/philosopher William James.  James was a young student when Darwin first published his theory of evolution, and thus was part of the first generation to absorb the Darwinian worldview, and use it as a lens for viewing the world.  James, however, was unique in the degree to which he turned that lens inward, and systematically related it to all three levels of his expertise-the physical foundations of awareness in nuerology, the full range of human information processing in psychology, and the fundamental possibilities of human knowledge, thought, values and destiny in philosophy.

James was, in fact, the first cybernetic philosopher, because he realized we are embedded in loops of circular causation, some of which span countless generations.  He saw that even our imagined "analytical truths" of pure logic were the products of eons of evolution, shaping our nervous systems so that some things appeared impossible to doubt, and beyond the reach of any conceivable evidence to the contrary.

Unfortunately, James fell victim to America's strange combination of anti-intellectualism and its cutlural inferiority complex in comparison with Europe.  His more subtle views of science and human knowledge were largely ignored through much of the 20th Century, in favor of a simplistic positivism, on the one hand, and a bloodless analytical philosophy on the other.  But the emergence of congitive science as a multi-disciplinary practice in the last few decades has revived the Jamesian recognition that our physical bodies, and the history embedded in them, are fundamentally involved in all our forms of knowing.

This was a point made forcefully in George Lakoff's first book on cognitive metaphors, co-written with philosopher Mark Johnson, Metaphors We Live By, and it has recurred throughout his work.  The book, Where Mathematics Comes From: How the Embodied Mind Brings Mathematics into Being (co-authored by Rafael Nunez) is particularly fascinating and instructive, since it has nothing to do with language at all, but is entirely concerned with understanding mathematics as a human endeavor, a human activity experessive of human consciousness, rooted in the human body. However, it received it's fullest examination in the book Philosophy in the Flesh: The Embodied Mind and Its Challenge to Western Thought, also co-authored with Mark Johnson.

As I've frequently referenced, along a different line of thoght, Robert Kegan's schema of cognitive development also stresses the persistent fact that the foreground of conscious thought-that which is object for us-always exists against a more complex background context of what is subject for us.  Put simply, we cannot escape the fact that, from multiple different perspectives, we are creatures whose rationality and autonomy is always dependent on the multiple contexts in which we live, think, and breathe.

The Argument At Booman Tribune

There were a number of different diaries in which Booman reiterated over and over and over again his baseless belief that "framing=lying", and a truly impressive group of crtics-folks like pyhrro, Media Girl and Janet Strange-tried to dissuade him... all to no avail, since reason is always powerless in the face of pure dogmatism.

I summoned up my best efforts at a response in a diary, "Why Booman Hates Framing... He Just Doesn't Get It!", which spawned nearly 200 comments, a lot of them quite insightful, but all to no avail.  You just can't argue with someone who doesn't listen to you.  It's just that simple, even though it's incredibly frustrating when it's a person whom you've often violently agreed with.

In one of the diaries, I responded like this:

You're Framing 'Framing' As Lying

You can't stop framing, even when you're attacking framing.  By framing 'framing' as 'lying' you are blinding yourself to the fact that you are framing in the very act of denouncing framing.

Just because conservatives and Republicans use framing in a perverted fashion does not change the facts.  Framing is an inescapable aspect of human cognition.  It operates through a variety of different mechanisms, and has been studied by hundreds, probably thousands of different researchers.  Denying framing is like denying evolution or global warming.

The problem with GOP/conservative framinig is two-fold: (1) Much of it is Orwellian.  

And Lakoff points out:

Clinton figured out how to handle this problem. He stole the other side's language. He talked about "welfare reform," for example. He said, "The age of big government is over." He did what he wanted to do, only he took their language and used their words to describe it. It made them very mad. Very smart technique. It turns out that what is good for the goose is good for the gander, and guess what? We get "compassionate conservatism." The Clear Skies Initiative. Healthy Forests. No Child Left Behind. This is the use of language to mollify people who have nurturant values, while the real policies are strict father policies. This mollifies, even attracts, the people in the middle who might have qualms about you. This is the use of Orwellian language--language that means the opposite of what it says--to appease people in the middle at the same time as you pump up the base. That is part of the conservative strategy.

Liberals and progressives typically react to this strategy in a selfdefeating way. The usual reaction is, "Those conservatives are bad people; they are using Orwellian language. They are saying the opposite of what they mean. They are deceivers. Bad. Bad. " All true. But we should recognize that they use Orwellian language precisely when they have to: when they are weak, when they cannot just come out and say what they mean. Imagine if they came out supporting a "Dirty Skies Bill" or a "Forest Destruction Bill" or a "Kill Public Education" bill. They would lose. They are aware people do not support what they are really trying to do.

Orwellian language points to weakness--Orwellian weakness. When you hear Orwellian language, note where it is, because it is a guide to where they are vulnerable. They do not use it everywhere. It is very important to notice this, and use their weakness to your advantage.

(2) The rest reflects a flawed worldview--the Strict Father worldview.  This worldview is extremely vulnerable to criticism.  But only if you understand what it is.  And if you understand the alternative--the Nurturant Parent worldview.

For example, when you look at data like the General Social Survey time series on supporting social spending, it's clear that the vast majority of people--including self-identified extreme conservatives--adopt the Nurturant Parent worldview when it is presented to them in terms of specific policies and programs that meet an identifiable need.  Our problem is, we have failed to develop consistent arguments and political narratives that connect those specific commitments to a larger vision.  And this can only be done with the use of framing.

I'm not saying that framing alone will do it.  But it can't be done without framing.

And Booman responded:

Please don't hit me

with a tautology.

I can't describe the framing debate without describing what I feel framing is. The second I do that you accuse me of framing what framing is.

Framing as a cognitive description goes to the visceral, the subconscious, the non-rational.

It works, which is why it is used. It is usually only necessary as a strategy when one is weak.

When one is strong, you lead with your ideas in a honest manner. When reason is on your side, there is less need to resort to the visceral.

Example: the word 'discrimination' has a bad connotation. On a visceral level the mind recoils from the word before the context is understood.

It used to be that gambling had such a connotation, so they invented gaming.

The left's obsession with framing reflects (too often) a lack of faith in the rightness of our beliefs and their attractiveness.

Just as the right resorts to Orwellian language, the left attempts to trick people into supporting policies that studies show the people support without trickery.

It becomes a defense mechanism against Orwellian language. It's weakness. I hate it.

Notice how emotive, expressive, non-rational, and visceral Booman's argument is.  Not to mention totally unresponsive to the arguments I've just presented.  There is not one shred of argument here that makes the case against framing per se.  It simply assumes that framing is defined by the dishonest, manipulative use of framing.  And that's simply par for the course.  Framing can only be dismissed by misrepresenting it, by framing it dishonestly.

Booman ascended to the height of such misrepresentation in his diary "What is Framing in a Political Context?"  In this diary, he attempted to define "Framing in a Political Context" in terms of Frank Luntz, as a poll-driven, consumer-oriented attempt to pick off small demographic splinter groups.  There are two main problems with this.  First, it is totally anathema to what Lakoff believes should be done.  Which, of course, makes it utterly absurd as an argument against Lakoff.

In Don't Think of an Elephant: Know Your Values and Frame the Debate, Lakoff writes:

A third mistake is this: There is a metaphor that political campaigns are marketing campaigns where the candidate is the product and the candidate's positions on issues are the features and qualities of the product. This leads to the conclusion that polling should determine which issues a candidate should run on. Here's a list of issues. Which show the highest degree of support for a candidate's position? If it's prescription drugs, 78 percent, you run on a  platform featuring prescription drugs. Is it keeping social security? You run on a platform featuring social security. You make a list of the top issues, and those are the issues you run on. You also do market segmentation: District by district, you find out the most important issues, and those are the ones you talk about when you go to that district.

It does not work. Sometimes it can be useful, and, in fact, the Republicans use it in addition to their real practice. But their real practice, and the real reason for their success, is this: They say what they idealistically believe. They say it; they talk to their base using the frames of their base. Liberal and progressive candidates tend to follow their polls and decide that they have to become more "centrist" by moving to the right. The conservatives do not move at all to the left, and yet they win!

Why? What is the electorate like from a cognitive point of view? Probably 35 to 40 percent of people-maybe more these days-have a strict father model governing their politics.
Similarly, there are people who have a nurturant view governing their politics, probably another 35 to 40 percent. And then there are all the people in the "middle."

The key can be found in Lakoff's subtitle: Know Your Values and Frame the Debate (Accordingly).  Don't pander. Build your campaign on articulating your value system through a systematic unfolding of the frames that express it.  This is nothing remotely like what Booman is talking about.

The second problem is that it is disingenuous way to obscure the actual logical relationships involved, which can be seen in the following diagram:

(Of course, it's oversimplified, since politics involves other sorts of framing, as well, most notably the visual staging of political events, campaign ads, etc.  But that's well outside the frame of discussion in which the framing debates occur.)

Booman has to ignore and obscure this natural order of embedding, because it contradicts the very heart of his argumnt, which is to center "political framing" in the practice of corrupt and/or rightwing political operatives, rather than in the actual reality of how it works in human reason.

Arguing The Other Way-The Obamaphile's Excuse

More recently, here and elsewhere, we've seen the opposite side argued.  Obama is not lying about Reagan's record, he's reframing it.  Obama is not  spinning Reagan's record, he's reframing it.  But, as indicated by the logical relationships mapped out at the beginning of this diary, such claims are disingenuous.  Lying and spinning are simply dishonest ways of framing, and what we want Obama to do-just like any other politician-is to frame things honestly.  That's why I fought so hard against Booman's misrepresentations-because I want to preserve and incredibly valuable distinction.  And I refuse to surrender that distinction to excuse-making Obamaphiles, just as I refused to surrender it to Booman.

The examples I presented in my previous diary, "What If Obama Tried to Split The Right, Instead of the Left?", are examples of how such framing can be done.  There are countless other examples as well.  But the point is simple:  If we set this standard for ourselves-the standard of honestly framing and re-framing-then we can meet it, and we can succeed politically.  But if we remain irrationally opposed to it, or blindly ignorant of what the standard is, then we stand very little chance at all.


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Paul (0.00 / 0)
I don't even know what you're accusing me of.

Defending "Reason" With Pure Emotion (0.00 / 0)
That's one thing I was accusing you of, for starters.

It's a common curse of the Western Tradition.  You're hardly alone.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
you're being an asshole (2.00 / 2)
is that emotional enough for you?

you're quoting from diaries that are over two years old to make some kind of half-ass and unsupported point about an argument that I never even made.

What more proof could you possibly ask for that framing is for suckers than the reaction of you pinheads to Obama making an innocuous point in an interview with the goddamn board of a newspaper.  Well it's not innocuous if it violates your holy rules of framing which no one gives one shit about outside of a college campus. 

You spend so much time pretending that Republicans win because people erroneously believe in false Reagan narrative frames that you're willing to tear down the only candidate with a prayer of a chance of beating Team Triangulation over some absolute bullshit. 

You're literally whining that Obama reinforced a frame you don't like, as if it matters in the slightest what academics think about political campaigns.  Obama already has the academic vote wrapped up tight, so I think he can afford to poke you in the eye a few times. 

You want to know what's emotional?  Taking it personally when a progressive candidate takes progressives for granted because they already have your vote. 

Go register someone to vote.  Drop a leaflet.  Just stop wanking on and on about whether it's a venal or mortal sin to evoke Reagan in a positive light.


[ Parent ]
I TRed ya pal just like I obliterated yer bookmark a long time.. (0.00 / 0)

...ago from my computer.

The point of the Obama 'hearts' St. Ronnie as it seems yer activist ass missed, is this.

Obama got caught telling a bunch of white guys who run a reactionary rag that they don't need to worry about him when it comes to unions and such. By invoking St. Ronnie he was telling them that they don't need to worry about him....

He is fully prepared to be their 'boy'.

Funny how the union voters in NV didn't seem to agree with you that this 'discussion' wasn't of much consequence.

Thanks for you 'concern' Mr. 'fact-free' Troll. And look for the union voters in SC to bitch-slap Senator 'Dope' back to the Senate where he can continue to 'fully fund' Bush's excellent adventure.

Thanks for droppin' in I'm off to practice my Kumbaya as it seems I just cannot attain the 'correct and proper' perspective now preferred by the 'Wise Men of the Blogosphere'.


Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
Well, Thank You For Sharing... (4.00 / 1)
As they say in ye olde human potential movement!

Guess there's still not a whole lot of coherent cognitive activity happening there.

Want a dip in the hot tub???

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I defended Obama (0.00 / 0)
I defended Obama over the Reagan remarks as much as anyone else here. I never used the term 'framing' to describe what he was doing, but I did argue that what he was reiterating was, in many circles, conventional wisdom. In that sense, I don't think that Obama was RE-framing anything, but rather buying into an existing (though incorrect) frame. If a Republican candidate had said what he said, they would have simply been reiterating an already existing frame. Is it different because he is a Democrat? I think it has to do with audience, and the fact that we don't all share objective truths, but rather all have a different set of subjective truths when it comes to politics and history.

Republicans are constantly invoking Reagan in the most glowing ways possible, but is this spin? Is it lies? I don't think so, at least not always. Their audience consist of a large swath of the electorate that already bought the "Reagan is Great" frame - hook, line and sinker. Those who exist solidly on the left don't believe that frame, but they also don't care what Republicans are saying anyway. So, according to the audience of the Republicans, the way Reagan is framed is accurate. It may not be an objective truth, but in politics you don't get to measure how much liquid is in the glass. Their audience believes the hype about Reagan. They don't have to spin, because the spinning already took place and the legacy of Reagan in the minds of most Americans has been set. It is wrong, but it is set. Reagan is among the greatest American presidents. This is the subjective truth according to a huge cross-section of the electorate. I know we hate this, but I don't see how anyone can deny it.

But what about when Obama says it? He speaks to a different crowd. The people I mentioned above - that group that hears the Republicans - are not subject to spin by Obama when he spoke about Reagan. In their eyes, Obama is simply reiterating their subjective truth. But, when WE hear it, it is not truth to us because we do not accept that frame. We of course were not the target audience, but we are an audience nonetheless. And when we heard those remarks, we heard lies. Not fact-based framing, not gray-area spin, but outright lies.

So Obama was not framing or re-framing when he is heard by conservatives, he is merely reiterating a truth they already accept: The sky is blue, taxes are too high, and Reagan is an American hero. But when we hear it, we perceive it as spin or lies or a mix of both. Same with the SS debate. Most Americans believe 100% that SS is in crisis. Obama was not spinning anything when he spoke out about SS. Because all American's know that 2+2=4 and SS is in crisis. These are established 'facts'.

I clearly wrote too much here - point being, the audience determines if it is framing, spin or lie. Different audiences perceive it differently. It would do us all some good to remember that politicians rarely if ever speak directly to us. They more often speak to a much broader segment of the electorate, often excluding us. And those segments of the electorate buy into many different "truths" than we do. Which is why we are predisposed to call things out as spin and lies - unlike most Americans, we do not accept all kinds of ridiculous lies as truths. (which I suppose is a function of both high-info vs. low-info and liberal vs conservative worldviews)



"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra


Interesting Points/Perspective (0.00 / 0)
but I'm old fashioned, despite the countless accusations of relativism hurled at me over the years.

I still believe that lies are lies.

Even though I recognize the existence of conventional lies routinely treated/construed as true.  Sociology of knowledge.  Yeah, I did that scene.

But you weren't one of the people I was thinking of. So, we cool.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Should have read your comment, first (0.00 / 0)
I should have read your comment before writing my own.  We both make the same basic point.

But point about lying needs to be taken seriously.  You have to be very careful about using the other side's frames.  They are useful when making points because they are already with you and know what you are saying.  But the frames are often based on lies and using the frame implies you support and/or believe the lie.  But if you spend every-other word backtracking from the frame the point you are trying to make gets completely lost.

Of course, sometimes we confuse lying with frames in other ways and call something a conservative frame just because they used it to make their own point.  For example, in the real world Social Security taxes end up in the general fund.  Right now they help with budget deficits.  In the future they will make deficits worse.  Saying there is a pending "social security crisis" is pure frame, not a lie; glass half empty.  You could also say there is pending deficit crisis; glass half full. 

We currently call this a conservative frame because Republicans used it as an excuse to get rid of social security.  Prior to that, though, Gore used it as a reason to not cut taxes and keep surplus.  Obama uses it as a reason to do the most progressive tax hike in a long time, remove the cap on the payroll tax.


[ Parent ]
Except (4.00 / 3)
It's really not a "Social Security Crisis."

It's a "Republicans spend your retirement money like it's going out of style" crisis.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Fund (0.00 / 0)
Assuming you believe the Social Security "fund" is anything beyond an agreed upon lie. 

[ Parent ]
Well If You're Ron Paul (4.00 / 1)
Otherwise, Federal Reserve Notes and the like are actually "real money," same are your electronic bank balance.

So far as most folks in the world are concerned, the "full faith and credit of the United States" is about as real as money gets.

But, then, of course, it's also true that gentlemen prefer latinum.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Of course, but (0.00 / 0)
Of course, but those notes have to eventually be paid via taxes. No need or Ron Paul loonyness.  The bottom line remains the same.  Just framing with fancier legal documentation.

I love my Christmas bonus each year when my payroll taxes go away each November and December, but it's regressive as hell.  When those notes are due someone will need to pay them and I'd prefer something a bit more progressive.


[ Parent ]
Agreed (0.00 / 0)
We just don't improve our position by getting all tangled up in their language.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Not THEIR language (4.00 / 1)
I think it is a big mistake calling this Republican language.  Just because a Republican has used it doesn't mean they own it.  This gets back to the "purity" problem many of us see on our own side when attacking Obama.  Not all frames are innately ideological.

I've agreed to many of your complaints, but I don't think you really separate frames that directly support conservative positions from those that can be used a variety of ways.  I think the fear of some form of triangulations has gotten so bad that we don't notice when we can use language they have used for our own advantage.

On the other hand, I've also heard Obama use the phrase "tax relief", which I think is a bigger problem.


[ Parent ]
You Have A Point But (4.00 / 1)
I think you'd agree that it's much more common for folks to overlook the inherently ideological frames than for people to see them where they are not.

Furthermore, while some frames might be inherently nuetral, it's still better to replace them with inherntly progressive frames, rather than simple be satisfied with a draw.

No?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Using frame (0.00 / 0)
I don't think Obama was re-framing with the Reagan point.  I think he was trying to use an existing frame to make a point.

The more I think about it, the more I think Obama doesn't really use framing in the Lakoffian sense, at least not consciously.  I agree with you that he should.


I'll Have To Think About That (4.00 / 1)
About Obama not really using framing in the Lakoffian sense, that is.

I do see him framing things in terms of "conflict and polarization"="our problem", rather than "rightwing attack-dog lunatics"="our problem", and that alone is enough for me to chew on, with all its variations.  That's a pretty damn fundamental framing choice, so far as I'm concerned.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Good point (4.00 / 1)
I'll agree on the conflict and polarization frame.  There may be other examples I'm not thinking of.

But were I fundamentally agree with Obama and disagree with you and much of the blogosphere is that liberals win with unity.  I think the frame of division (Edwards "fight" rhetoric) aids the right more than the left.  They NEED strongly defined division to keep everyone from noticing they are stealing our money.

Of course, your next point should be "why hasn't Obama specifically said that".  He should.  In fact, I'd love to see a bit more populist rhetoric from him that explicitly points out that the robber barons have been flaming the culture war for years to maintain their power.  Huckabee basically makes the same point on the Republican side, so it is a particularly easy point to make this year.


[ Parent ]
This Requires Some Real Skill (0.00 / 0)
Not in terms of populism--which I think is a realtively easy sell, but in terms of the deeper conflict of values that point toward, and how conflct empowers the right.

The thing is, there are two diametrically opposed notions of unity.

The conservative unity is one where you're untied under an authortiy that is imposed on your from above.  Divine right of kings, that sort of thing.

The liberal unity is where you accept everyone on a equal footing, whether you agree or disagree. Freedom of religion, consent of the governed kind of thing.

But the problem comes when the theocrats want to take over.  How much can you tolerate that, before it eats you alive?

My point is not that there's one true right and only way, and that I have the answr.  But it is that simply surrendering ain't it.  And simply trying to mak soothing sounds ain't it, either.  You have to speak up against it, and find different ways that reach different people, but bring them to a common place of understanding.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I wonder (0.00 / 0)
Is it possible that Obama simply recognizes that while the country is rejecting the right and its leaders, politics and policies, it is not yet ready to do so entirely, or embrace the left, and that any leftie who tries to rush the transition, so to speak, by attacking the right and its leaders, politics and policies, is going to come across looking strident and angry (and I use those words intentionally, for reasons that I'm sure you can guess at) and lose the support of people who might otherwise be open to them and their ideas IF they presented them in a more accomodating and soothing manner (because, among other things, people don't want to be confronted with the truth that until recently, they bought into the right's leaders, politics and policies, and, having been told for decades that liberals were bad, it's kind of hard for them to admit that perhaps this MAY not be entirely true), and thus has chosen to try to win it over with a more soothing "unity and hope" approach, than with, say, Edwards' more angry-SEEMING one (or perhaps Hillary's more wonky-SEEMING one)?

If so--and I admit to being someone who's viewed his approach as being along such lines, rightly or wrongly--then the questions are one, is this the best way to win over the country and "wean" it off of conservative leaders, politics and policies, two, is this the best way to win it over to more progressive ones, and three, is this the best way to unite the left as it hopefully prepares to take over? Or is it at least the best compromise between these three goals (which I think you'll agree are central ones)? And if not, what WOULD be a better approach, that is as likely, or even more likely, to both win the nomination AND the general (or else it's all moot in terms of being able to actually govern and effect actual change)?

Sorry, I seem to be fundamentally incapable of asking a "simple" question. But, clearly, you seem to be fundamentally incapable of wanting to answer one (and I mean that entirely as a compliment, since there many simple-seeming questions are in fact just the opposite).

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Agree to a point... (0.00 / 0)
I agree with your overview that Obama represents a more soothing alternative to the right, but I think some of his message is getting lost.

I believe he's ultimately talking about removing the label barriers for all sides.  That we are more alike than different, that the false constructs of party politics and ensuing labels are stopping us, as a nation, from solving our most serious and basic problems.

Healthcare is a prime example.  Do you know anyone, regardless of party affiliation that doesn't think we need to find a solution? 

Religion is another.  Do you know anyone who has dismissed you out of hand simply because you belong to a certain denomination, church, base religion?

Why can't we rid ourselves of the labels at least long enough to work together for solutions that all of us think we need?  Why is it that we can't talk with each other, listen to each other's words without the preinstalled prejudices that come with party/label?


[ Parent ]
Well, labels or not (0.00 / 0)
Poll after poll has shown for years, if not decades, that the majority of Americans hold what are essentially liberal and progressive values or at least goals, and differ from self-identified liberals and progressives more in terms of the degree to which and way in which they hold them, and the labels that they attach to them, than in any irreconcilably and fundamentally different manner.

E.g. on health insurance, education, the environment, civil liberties, civil rights, gay rights, abortion, even issues traditionally ceded to and associated with the right, such as economic and fiscal policy and national security, the majority of Americans are more in line with liberal and progressive values, positions and goals than with conservative ones.

It's only on messaging that they seem to have aligned more with conservatives over the past few decades--and even then only because conservatives have been better at messaging, and not because most Americans actually agree with the values and policies that belie this generally Orwellian (or more garden variety dishonest) messaging. And now even THIS is changing in our favor, so conservatives don't even have a messaging advantage.

I would add that conservatives did have several other advantages, having to do with infrastructure, e.g. dominance of the media, having a deeper and broader ideological system in the form of think tanks, talk shows and publications, etc., and although this advantage is also starting to fade, right now I think that they continue to have an advantage over our side, since these advantages take years to reverse.

So, in a sense, we shouldn't even have to be afraid any longer (as if we ever really needed to be afraid of such things) of talking to voters in ways that might alienate them, or scare them off of us big bad evil libruls.

Except that decades of being propagandized by the right, ineffectively and insufficiently countered by the left, have sort of brainwashed Americans into thinking about the issues according to right-wing frames and biases, such that even if they actually believe in liberal position X, on some unconscious level they continue to think of it according to right-wing frame Y, such that they end up with a confused opinion Z, that leans left in some ways, but right in others, and there's a certain automatic pushback that kicks in, implanted in them by decades of right-wing propagandizing, whenever they hear liberals promoting liberal ideas, values and goals, using liberal language, even if they actually agree with these ideas, values and goals.

And thus there's a fear on the part of some people on our side to speak about these things too openly and directly, for fear of alienating such people, and losing an opportunity to "get" them. And instead, they adopt frames that either reject liberal framing, or that adopt right-wing framing, in order to speak a language that such people are comfortable with, but to promote ideas, values and goals that are actually liberal, not conservative. An understandable approach, perhaps, but as Paul and others have argued, not only is it not a necessary one, or necessarily the best one, but quite possibly one of the worst ones, since HOW you talk about something can be just as important as WHAT that something actually is.

Someone like Obama is smart enough to get all this, even if he doesn't necessarily agree with it. I'm assuming that after having worked in and gotten to know the major players in national politics and how it operates today, he's decided that the only way to advance a progressive agenda (to the extent that he believes in one, of course) is by first winning over enough moderate Pubs and centrists to have a mandate for progressive change. And the way to do that is to "ease" them into the progressive camp, whose positions they largely agree with, but which they cannot yet comfortably identify themselves with politically. He's sort of promoting "Progressivism for Dummies", or progressivism with training wheels, or, to invoke Bush and Olasky, "Painless Progressivism"--as opposed to Edwards' approach, which appears to be to openly declare himself a progressive without apologies, and ask that Americans join him in his progressive coalition.

I can see the logic behind such an approach. But I can also see the dangers, or at least downsides, in that by watering down progressivism and gently reaching out to the other side (or at least to voters who've aligned themselves with the other side but aren't true believer wingnuts and, having become disenchanted with the other side, are open to being brought over to our side, or at least to being aligned with it), he's blurring the meaning and power of progressivism as something different from and better than conservatism, to the point where it's almost like saying that if you're sick of McDonalds, why don't you try Burger King, because it's yummier--when in fact the real alternative is genuinely healthier and tastier food of a very different sort that you can't generally get as fast food. It also conveniently sidesteps any direct confrontation with the other side (i.e. its true believer wingnut element), leaving it intact to live and fight another day (and perhaps re-take these soft supporters back from our side).

In a way, I think that progressives who object to what Obama is doing might compare it to what Chamberlain did when he met with Hitler. I.e. he avoided a fight and reached a sort of agreement with him, that in his mind averted war and brought "peace in our time", but in reality left a dangerous man alone and simply gave him more time to gain strength and prepare for a war that he had long before decided to wage, that ended up being even worse than the war that might have been fought had Chamberlain opted for harsher measures to contain Hitler. If this is how they view Obama, I don't know that I agree, but I can see their point. It might be nice, in theory, to make peace with the other side, and sometimes it's the right thing to do (e.g. the end of the Cold War). But sometimes, conflict is necessary and unavoidable, and Obama is simply not getting it (or is getting it, but thinks that he can somehow outsmart everyone).

I don't know. I just don't know. As for your question of whether we can't lay down all these labels and just work towards a common solution to our problems, via approaches that most Americans by and large already agree with, well, I'd love to be able to do that, but I don't think that it's that simple. For one thing, the RW spin machine keeps punching holes in any such bipartisan alliances. And for another thing, as I wrote above, despite essentially agreeing with most progressive positions, many Americans still think about the issues according to RW frames, making it hard to get them to work with us without first destroying those frames--which requires destroying the right's political power to a large degree. I.e. before there can be genuine and meaningful cooperation across the aisle, we have to first neutralize the worst elements on the other side of the aisle. And I'm inclined to agree with this. Perhaps Obama has figured out a way to do both at once, or to destroy the other side's power without open conflict, or to first build a bipartisan coalition and then use it to neutralize the other side. But I have my doubts, as do many others.

And yet, he continues to be my preferred choice, simply because I don't see the others (which at this point basically means Hillary) as being any more promising, and in some ways I see them (i.e. her) as worse. But that doesn't mean that we can't call him out when we see him doing things that we think he shouldn't.

And apologies for both the length of this response, and for mischaracterizing Paul or others' positions if I have in fact done so. Cheers.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Anger is overrated as a turnoff. The "angry white male" (4.00 / 1)
was the bedrock demographic among so-called Reagan Democrats. And as Newt Gingrich, Tom Delay and a lot of less well known knuckle draggers will tell you, it's won a whole lot of elections since. And of course, at times like these, anger is certainly an appropriate response.

That said, the whole Too-Angry John Edwards meme is disproved when you see that he generally leads his opponents in head-to-head matchups with Republicans.

Thanks for the post, Paul.


[ Parent ]
Anger might not be as big a turnoff (0.00 / 0)
as it's been made out to be by some, but neither do I believe that it's a very big turnon--at least to the sorts of voters that we're likely to attract and might want to attract. Anger works for an inherently minority ideology like conservatism, since its followers generally see themselves as persecuted "real Americans" who've been marginalized by minorities, gays, liberals, welfare cheats, gun haters, intellectuals, commies, etc. It does not work as well, I think, for everyday Americans who just want things to get better, not to take us back to the 50's (20th or 19th century, your pick).

Then again, I agree that Edwards is NOT about anger, but rather justice. But the media has effectively portrayed him as the "Angry Candidate", which he failed to combat effectively and which in many ways has likely doomed his chances. So I can see the appeal of Obama's "hope" approach, and its logic, in todays's media climate--although I'm not convinced that it can help him win the nomination and presidency AND allow him to govern effectively. But then I'm hoping (or assuming) that he's not this naive, and will, gradually, begin to show his other, tougher and less accomodating side, to conservatives who continue to obstruct our side, once he feels that he's secured enough bipartisan support to have a mandate. Whether my assumption is correct, and whether he can do this in practice, is still very much up in the air.

Whatever one thinks of him, Obama has certainly thrown both sides for a loop of late. That may be good or bad. Or possibly both. I just don't know. But I do know that anything would be better than another Pub president at this point--especially at this point. Angry or not.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
One of my fvorite Jamesian anecdotes comes from Barzun's (4.00 / 1)
nearly hagiographic "A stroll with William james," in which as one point Barzun quotes James as regarding humanity in the universe as akin to cats in a library.

Follow me on this, Paul: (4.00 / 1)
What frame do you use to promote the notion that there is no meaning to the concept of monetary wealth that is non-relative (in a closed system) and that the consequence of obsessive consumerism and competition for resources is what motivates people to crash airplanes into our buildings?

As to the first.... (0.00 / 0)

..........a real big chunk of the world's population live on less than $2.00/dy. It that 'relative'?

Two separate issues...two frames.

Paul can have number two as I find it's syntax impenetrable.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
There Are Plenty of Them In the Bible (0.00 / 0)
For example:
    Matthew 16:26: "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul?

    Matthew 20:16: "the last shall be first, and the first last."

    Matthew 25:40: 'inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these My brethren, ye have done it unto Me.'

Also:

    "As ye sow, so shall ye reap."
    "What goes around, comes around.

There are plenty more.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
You're making this too easy (0.00 / 0)
The first three are from a description of an historic figure who was martyred.  The failure of the last two were the raison d'etre of that same figure.

[ Parent ]
A Frame Is Not A Solution (0.00 / 0)
It's a starting point.  You want to start with something as familiar and accepted as possible.  This is where I would start.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I didn't ask for a solution (0.00 / 0)
I asked for a frame.  And I posited the one I did for a very serious reason.  Since that one's a non-starter, I'll shift a bit:

Can we agree that the critical mass of American voters is shifting from one that was accustomed to personal sacrifice and want (the Depression, WWI & WWII) to one that has either benefited from the great post WWII economic expansion (like us) or knows only Friedman economics (gen x and beyond), and therefore has generally come to expect an ever-expanding economy as surely as they do the rising of the sun?

And can we agree that variations in experience will result in varying perceptions of at least some frames?


[ Parent ]
Well, Sure Experience Shapes Perception. DUH! (0.00 / 0)
But if you believe gen x and beyond have only experienced an ever-expanding economy, I have a whole portfolio of bridges I want to sell you.

Most folks have only experienced stagnant or downward mobility over the past several decades.  That's just a simple fact.  And your disconnect from this basic reality is something I find genuinely astonishing.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Fair enough (0.00 / 0)
Even though I think you're being a little disingenuous, I'll agree that I didn't explain myself well. 

The frames they have experienced overwhelmingly are ones that reinforce the idea that economic success is achieved by a constantly expanding economy.  And you will agree that frames do effect perception and, therefore, experience?


[ Parent ]
Okay, Sure, (0.00 / 0)
That's certainly the case.  People are bombarded with that sort of false imagery all the time.  How they process it, well, that's another matter. 

But I still have the feeling that I don't really understand what you're getting at. 

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Jerome nails it...and so do I... (0.00 / 0)

Obama was 'pandering', whoops...that don't fit Paul's analysis me bad, when he essentially told the conservative board of the Reno Gazette, how quaint that is..., that he 'hearts' him some Reagan. Of the eight folks who attended the Oaktown chapter meeting of Drinking Liberally all, every on got that.

It would seem that many of the folks classified as 'unionists', mere rank and file I suppose in NV got it too.


Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


IOW (4.00 / 1)
When Clinton was doing his triangulating thing, it MIGHT have been an effective short-term tactical move on his part to re-appropriate RW frames and talking points to make it LOOK like he was doing what they wanted to do, when in fact it wasn't, and in so doing steal their thunder and the apparent popularity that they and their ideas seemed to be experiencing at the time, yet without having to actually implement these ideas--but by employing this crafty technique, he simply made it easier and more acceptable for the right to start doing it itself several years later, in vastly more egregious and damaging fashion?

Except, even if so, IIRC, Clinton didn't just triangulate ideologically or rhetorically, but actually, in terms of policy. E.g. NAFTA, "Welfare Reform", monetary policy, etc.--i.e. he really DID cave in to the right, at least partly, just in a way that allowed him to retain some measure of power and control and not cede everything to it, yet still continue to appear to be a liberal to his side (or at least that portion of his side that wasn't really paying attention).

If so, then this wasn't a "pure" use of this technique, and in a sense his "lie" wasn't completely a "lie" (or spin, or reframing--I'm still trying to get my arms around the distinctions here)--and, in fact, it was arguably more of a lie to HIS side than to the other side, in many ways. Whereas Bush's lie was "pure", since his bait and switch was entirely ideological and rhetorical, with no meaningful actual triangulating on the policy level. E.g. "Healthy Skies" was not a Clintonian pander to the environmentally-concerned center that ended up actually offering some things to environmentalists (or, in Clinton's case, to conservatives), but a true Orwellian lie that offered nothing to them, and was 100% conservative and dishonest.

Assuming that any of this is true (I'm just throwing out ideas, if I'm wrong then I'm wrong), what do you see Obama's Reagan remarks as being more like, Clintonian triangulation, which was both rhetorical AND substantive, or Bushian triangulation, which I see as purely rhetorical? I.e. regardless of its political wisdom, or the effect it might have on the left and politics, does Obama strike you as pandering to the soft right and center as Bush once pandered to the center--i.e. purely rhetorically, and totally dishonestly--and deep down he's still a progressive who's just trying to win some votes? Or does he strike you as pandering to them substantively, and he really does intend to govern more like a centrist than as a progressive, and cave in to the other side substantively--as Clinton did?

Or are these questions besides the point, and I'm missing the real point entirely? I.e. it's not what he's saying to the other side, or what he intends to do, that matters, but that he's trashing his own side, and in doing so hurting, weakening and dividing it? Or are BOTH things going on here, and if so, what are your thoughts about the part that I brought up here? I.e. that his rhetoric doesn't just hurt our side, but is a warning sign as to how he'd actually govern wrt how much he's going to concede to the other side?

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


I'm Really Not 100% Sure WHAT Obama Is Doing (0.00 / 0)
I just want to try to clear away some of the rampant confusion that seems to be growing like kudzu in a Simpsons Halloween nightmare sequence.

While I find Obama's remarks troubling however you parse their intention, things were just getting progressively worse as the justifications flew all over the map.  So I thought I should try putting my foot down, and hoping, just hoping I'd miss the worst of the deep doo-doo, as the senior Bush war criminal would say.

I generally do see Obama as basically working in the Clinton tradition more than anything else.  But my deeper problem is that (a) I could be wrong and (b) Obama is simply too vague for me to really know for sure.

But I have this sinking, sickening feeling that it could be all of the above, as you intimate in the end.

Mclurkin just really sticks in my craw, for example. I just don't see how you make that one smell nice.  Do you?

"King's X!" just doesn't cut it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Missing the point (0.00 / 0)
You are missing the point.  "Compassionate Conservatism" is still conservatism.  It is trying to spin and sell an ideology.  The bottom line in this debate is the belief by some that Obama isn't selling the liberal and/or progressive ideology.  While I largely disagree, I have to admit the very fact so many don't see it implies they are at least partially correct.

[ Parent ]
Better frame? (0.00 / 0)
Perhaps Obama did a better job at framing today as he tries to make the same point on unity he has been making:

Unfortunately, all too often when we talk about unity in this country, we've come to believe that it can be purchased on the cheap. We've come to believe that racial reconciliation can come easily - that it's just a matter of a few ignorant people trapped in the prejudices of the past, and that if the demagogues and those who exploit our racial divisions will simply go away, then all our problems would be solved.

All too often, we seek to ignore the profound institutional barriers that stand in the way of ensuring opportunity for all children, or decent jobs for all people, or health care for those who are sick. We long for unity, but are unwilling to pay the price.

But of course, true unity cannot be so easily won. It starts with a change in attitudes - a broadening of our minds, and a broadening of our hearts.

Every day, our politics fuels and exploits this kind of division across all races and regions; across gender and party. It is played out on television. It is sensationalized by the media. And last week, it even crept into the campaign for President, with charges and counter-charges that served to obscure the issues instead of illuminating the critical choices we face as a nation.

So let us say that on this day of all days, each of us carries with us the task of changing our hearts and minds. The division, the stereotypes, the scape-goating, the ease with which we blame our plight on others - all of this distracts us from the common challenges we face - war and poverty; injustice and inequality. We can no longer afford to build ourselves up by tearing someone else down. We can no longer afford to traffic in lies or fear or hate. It is the poison that we must purge from our politics; the wall that we must tear down before the hour grows too late.

But if changing our hearts and minds is the first critical step, we cannot stop there. It is not enough to bemoan the plight of poor children in this country and remain unwilling to push our elected officials to provide the resources to fix our schools. It is not enough to decry the disparities of health care and yet allow the insurance companies and the drug companies to block much-needed reforms. It is not enough for us to abhor the costs of a misguided war, and yet allow ourselves to be driven by a politics of fear that sees the threat of attack as way to scare up votes instead of a call to come together around a common effort.

And that is what is at stake in the great political debate we are having today. The changes that are needed are not just a matter of tinkering at the edges, and they will not come if politicians simply tell us what we want to hear. All of us will be called upon to make some sacrifice. None of us will be exempt from responsibility. We will have to fight to fix our schools, but we will also have to challenge ourselves to be better parents. We will have to confront the biases in our criminal justice system, but we will also have to acknowledge the deep-seated violence that still resides in our own communities and marshal the will to break its grip.

That is the unity - the hard-earned unity - that we need right now. It is that effort, and that determination, that can transform blind optimism into hope - the hope to imagine, and work for, and fight for what seemed impossible before.


We Need Policy Proposals from Obama, not Pontification (4.00 / 3)
When is Obama going to stop pontificating and present a serious comprehensive legislative program that covers all the bases of his pontifications?

I am sick of hearing his platitudes. I'd like to have a rough draft of his first state of the union address complete with legislative proposals and projected budget for his first fiscal year in office.

It's outrageous that he keeps repeating his pious platitudes over and over again but never applies them to the real job of the president which is to prioritize and fund the policies he wants enacted.

The country is divided not because it lacks a pontificator preaching unity. It is divided because the Republican/Democratic regimes of the past couple decades have been a failure on the economic front and the voters are desperately looking for a new political philosophy and course of action that is going to replace the failed conservative economic policies of the past.

Obama is not going to bridge this divide with pontification. What is needed is a comprehensive legislative program. That he keeps pontificating about the need for major change while failing to present a comprehensive major change program suggests that he really does not have one. He just wants to get elected and the learn on the job how to fight his way through the current crises enveloping us.


[ Parent ]
His Iowa Victory Speech Was REALLY Vacuous (0.00 / 0)
And I can't help thinking but that that hurt him, though of course the talking heads didn't see a word they would have altered.  If he had given a speech with substance, a speech that--unlike the one he did give--no one else could have given, then I think that he could well have done what many people that night thought he was going to do--run the table.

But he didn't even seem to faintly realize that he was falling woefully short.  It simply never occured to him that there was something... missing.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I give up (0.00 / 0)
Democrats seem to innately like the legislative branch and politicians who read suggested laws, word for word, to no one but wonks.

Sorry for the snark, but I'll think I'll continue.

You guys are just freakn' dead inside.  Must suck to be you.  Again, over the line...  sorry...  but damn.

He has given a policy speech on every freakn' category.  Lays out detail proposals for all to see.  Brings them up in debates.  He has several major change programs.

And all of Hillary's, Edwards' or Barack's details will change in congress, anyway...

I stand by my claim that complaints about Obama's substance are really about style.  He tells what problems he wants to solve.  He explains the system for solving them.  He gives his views on the best actually solution.  But he doesn't wonk us through details on a daily basis.  Whatever.

This discussion was about framing, btw.

I'm out of here.  Right now I'm too pissed to think.


[ Parent ]
Well, I Hope You Come Back (0.00 / 0)
Look, it's a good speech.  No doubt about it.  A lot better than his Iowa victory speech, for example.  And, yes, it does a good job of framing attitudes.  But it doesn't connect all the pieces that a presidential candidate should be connecting, and I think this should be patently obvious.

This is a speech that any black minister could give.  Indeed, it's a speech that any person in America could give.  There is nothing specific to political power about it, much less specific to running for the presidency.  And so I don't think it's the least bit unreasonable to say that we'd like to see the "running for President" version.

So, please don't take this as an attack.  It's just a simply benchmark.

Within the context of this diary, per se it does represent what we should be looking for.  But beyond that context, in the larger conversation, it hasn't even begun to engage with what's really needed--the specificity of action committed to within that framework of moral necessity.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Laundry-list Democrats (0.00 / 0)
I understand your previous points about weaving policy into speeches and the overall narrative and largely agree with you, but there are major disagreements.  Where we disagree most strongly on this is twofold.  First, I think this improvement would be a minor thing whereas you think it should be (needs to be) the focus of the entire campaign.  Second, I think Democrats almost always fall into the trap of being Laundry-list candidates and it really hurts us.  I think it is far better to err on the side of demonstrating leadership style than to err on the side of Laundry-lists.

For some reason Democrats act like we are voting for white papers, but we aren't.  We are voting for people.  Clinton, Edwards and Obama have all been very clear on how they plan to lead.  As they all support the same basic plans, that is the most important difference. 

Edwards I have the least confidence in; he is basically daring the Republicans to put up the most solid counterattack they can, and they will.  Besides, he has never shown the ability to successfully do anything outside the courtroom.

Clinton will work the backrooms and I think is the most likely to get something done, but that something will probably be relatively minor.  Competent, but nothing special.  I'm a fan of plain old Good Government, so that's fine, though we can do more.

I agree with many that Obama is the biggest gamble, but the more I read the more convinced I am he can pull off the biggest changes.  I certainly agree with him on foreign policy more than the others (I'm not even talking about Iraq, per se) and that is where any president can do the most on his or her own.

Don't worry about me, I don't feel attacked.  Heck, I wasn't even much of an Obama supporter a month ago; it was mostly process of elimination for me.  But the complaints about him really started to get on my nerves.  I was much more excited about his Iowa victory than I expected to be.


[ Parent ]
Thanks For The Rightwing Frame! (4.00 / 1)
The people overwhelmingly support Democrats on the issues.  So how to overcome this advantage?  Two ideas: (1) Get them to become more like Republicans.  (2) Get them to just shut up.  The DLC, K-Street and the Versailles press have all sorts of ways to do #1, and calling their issues "a laundry list" is a good way to do #2.

So, congradulations for doing the GOP's work for it!

And as a matter of enlightenment and principle!

Meanwhile, back in the real world, George Lakoff has explained what the real problem is, which is not talking about issues, per se as Karl Rove and company have convinced you.  The problem is talking about issues without grounding them in our values and connecting them to people's lives.

It's the disconnected way of talking about issues, talking about policy that's the problem.

And you play right along by disconnecting them even further and saying they're not important.  And Obama plays right along as well, by leaving them out of his most prominent speeches, and stashing them away in white papers that his fans can link to in PDF, but not actually discuss.

Sorry, dude, but the only one who's treating issues like a laundry list here is you!

I have to thank you, though.  I never realized before reading this comment how the deep problems with the Obama campaign just never seemed to get fixed.

Now I understand.

All the bugs get touted as features.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Talk to some guy last night about this (0.00 / 0)
they are all too smart for their own good. what i mean by this is that i talked to him about real world negotiation, and how that worked in the past, and he goes on about how he likes what obama has to say about negotiation because "no one has ever tried." my thought when he said this was-- maybe a) becuase it doesn't work and b) because no one wants to focus to be on reinventing the wheel when the real goal is to get things accomplished outside of the wheel itself. notice when we discuss obama we discuss process change, not actual outcome changes? it was like this disconnect between what the guy wanted to hear versus what actually works when one negotiates.

[ Parent ]
A nerve (0.00 / 0)
Nancy hit my nerve when she attacked the substance, because it is all clearly there.  Apparently the phrase "laundry list" hit one of yours.

But it is the lack of narrative that I was attacking, not the presence of policy.  And I agreed he needs to weave more policy into his narrative.  The "laundry list" is a great way to describe policy without narrative -- at least it works for me.

But let me reword for you without hitting that nerve: I think it is better to err on the side of too much narrative and not enough policy than the other way around.

This is particularly true in a primary where the differences between the candidates is so small, policy wise.


[ Parent ]
Fine I Accept Your Rewrite! (0.00 / 0)
But your original narrative was, well, weak, right?

And while I fully agree that Dems have generally been lacking on narrative, "big time" as our #2 war criminal would say, the answer to erring in one direction is not to err in the other, but to strike a balance.  And that's what's been horribly missing from Obama.  If you look compare the Iowa speeches of Edwards and Obama, the difference is crystal clear. 

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Sorry, but (0.00 / 0)
I just don't know what these "major change programs" are.

Could you give me some specifics?


[ Parent ]
Blueprint for Change (0.00 / 0)
Here is a 64 page pdf with links to speeches and further details: Blueprint for Change.

But this isn't very interesting, to me at least, as it isn't much different than what all the Democrats have; the agreements this year are overwhelming.


[ Parent ]
Oh, Great! A Laundry List! (0.00 / 0)
The fact that you link to them, but don't discuss them, speaks volumes.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Yes (0.00 / 0)
You are correct.  The 'volumes' of which this speaks is all I care about is electing a demigod I can worship every day.  I care nothing about fixing actual problems.  Care nothing about making this a better country, about improving the lives of our children's generation.  All I care about is listening to pretty words.

You caught me.


[ Parent ]
No (0.00 / 0)
It speaks volumes about the gap between your kind of activism and Nancy's.  And this, in turn, is quite emblematic of the gap between Obama's "movement" the all the movements in place before he popped up to run for President.

There is a persistent divide, and this disjointed, if not totally disconnected attitude toward actual policy is right at the heart of it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Activism? (0.00 / 0)
I'm just a guy procrastination on a design document due tomorrow, I have no well thought out theory of activism.

I think it is extremely important that there are people out there working out all the various details of policy, looking at what solutions have been shown to work and what solutions tend to fail.  I think it is incredible important for people to speak up about those portions of our society that still have a long ways to go and need more attention.

I'm a pragmatist who believes there are "many ways to skin a cat".  My ideology tells me what the problems are that we face, they don't always tell me the solution.  I don't know if welfare style solutions of Jack Kemp style solutions work better to solve urban poverty.  I hope that both have been tried and we have some answers we can apply.

I believe in expertise and a government filled with professionals who work through these problems, come up with good policies, follow through to see how well they actually work, correct and continue.

I'm not anti policy at all.  But I'm under no allusion that I know the answers.  I have guesses and I know what kinda sounds good to me, but I'm no expert.

This is why Obama's core message about process hits home with me.  I understand the enlightenment and science and how one goes about solving problems and I see Obama understand this as well.  I don't know what form all the solutions should take place.  Just because a solution sounds good to me doesn't mean it is good.

The goal of science is answers, not process, but it is the process that makes it science and it is the process that gives us the correct answers.  I believe the same is true in government.

So I need to know what a candidate thinks are the core problems to be solved.  The difference between concerns about stagnating median wages versus keeping labor costs under control is huge.  It goes to the heart of understanding what is really important.

But how do we improve wages?  I have lots of opinions on the matter, but I'm no economist.  I claim no expertise on how all the details work out.  So expecting me to choose between detailed plans is not only stupid, but as someone who believes in expertise and professionalism, I actually find offensive.  What I want proven to me is the experts will be brought on board, experts with different opinions and backgrounds, and the best guessed set of solutions will be applied.

If this is the "persistent divide" of which you speak, then yea, it is a divide.  Perhaps you are an expert and do know all the answers to everything, but I seriously doubt it.  You are an expert about some things and you've done a great job of explaining what you understand.


[ Parent ]
Any differences? (0.00 / 0)
I would tell you to go to his website for his very explicit agenda, but I'm sure you've done that already.

I would then say google dem candidate differences and see that virtually everyone of proported intellect has said there's hardly a gnat's hair of difference in the democratic candidates agendas, but you've already done that.

I would then say you should examine all the candidates records in all their endeavors and see which actually achieved something closest to their goals, but you must have done that.

I would then ask if you've listened...really listened...to his words to see that he's explaining why he thinks his approach to implementing the agenda they all want is better than the others, but again...

He has a stated agenda, and it's very explicit.


[ Parent ]
Getting into people's heads (4.00 / 2)
One of the issues that comes up has to do with intention. If a person is telling an untruth deliberately that is one thing, but there are other variations.

One of the more interesting takes on the issue was philosopher Harry Frankfort's "On Bullshit". He defines this a a person who has no regard for the truth. A liar knows he is lying and could (theoretically) admit it if circumstances required. A bullshitter will say whatever seems most useful to make his point at the moment. The truth or falsity is not a consideration.

A good example is Bill O'Reilly, who can contradict himself within a couple of sentences without batting an eye. He will also stoutly deny he said things that are in the public record. Perhaps he's a type of sociopath. There are many other examples, especially in the right wing media, but several prominent (current and former) members of the current regime seem to fall into this category as well.

There may be some correlation with the authoritarian personality type, but I don't think there have been any studies done.

I wonder if "framing" doesn't contain a degree of deliberate distortion, at least by omission. A typical case would be to quote some economic consequence of a policy while omitting contradictory evidence. Perhaps you would consider this spinning, but I think spinning requires actively promoting an untruth.

Why understanding a person's motivation is important is because the techniques used to counter the message have to be tailored appropriately. A bullshitter, for example, can never be beaten in an argument. Even if they are completely discredited they will be back the next day as if nothing had happened.

A liar can be unmasked and discredited and driven from the scene. Several flacks who worked in the whitehouse (or the Justice Department) suffered this fate.

Ron Paul and Huckleberry are both people who believe economic nonsense. It's hard to tell whether they are uniformed, ideologically blind, or bullshitters. The uninformed can be educated. The others are a danger as the WMD fiasco illustrates.

Policies not Politics


Bullshitter=Pathological Liar??? (4.00 / 1)
I've long thought of the pathological liar as someone who lies without control.  They lie like other people breathe, not for any purpose, but simply because their lips are moving.  But this doesn't mean everything they say is a lie, just that anything could be a lie.  There is, quite simply, no compunction about lying, and seemingly no awareness.

Richard Nixon, for example, was an extremely deliberate tactical and strategic liar.  He lied all the time, really, but always for a reason--and often two or three at once.  But Ronald Reagan would just simply say anything that popped into his head.

As I wrote in a blues song back in the early 80s:

George Washington couldn't tell a lie
Richard Nixon couldn't tell the truth
And Ronald Reagan couldn't tell/the difference 'tween the two.

So, is that what you're talking about?  Or have I just made things more complicated?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Bullshit vs. Pathological Lying (4.00 / 2)
I think the difference between a pathological liar and a bullshitter is that the pathological liar feels particularly compelled to lie, whereas the bullshitter uses truth or lies with equal facility as needed to reinforce his position.

The difference can be seen in the end result. The pathological liar's sense of reality becomes increasingly warped and fractured as each lie further damages that reality. Whereas the bullshitter's reality is only solidified and bolstered by his blending of lies and truth.

Your blues song lyrics are really quite apt, I think. One can make a case that Nixon was a pathological liar because his lies were innately self-destructive, in many cases unnecessary, and ultimately served to unravel his psyche and career. Whereas Reagan, the consummate bullshitter, emerged not merely unscathed but deified, having successfully convinced much of America to buy into his version of reality.

I like Obama, but it seems like that is what he is after, achieving the same mastery of bullshit that Reagan enjoyed, except employing it in the service of more benign ends. To paraphrase Woody Allen, he's a bullshitter, but at least he's a bullshitter for the left!


[ Parent ]
Clinton didn't just frame (4.00 / 1)
Clinton didn't just steal the other side's language to get done what he wanted to get done.  He actually got several key Republican proposals enacted into law, specifically NAFTA, the GATT, and "welfare reform".  Reagan talked about welfare queens in Cadillacs, but it was Clinton who threw people off welfare.

It's very difficult to use the other side's language against them, because language has a power of its own.  If you speak your opponent's language, you advance your opponent's program, unless you are far more clever than Bill Clinton was.  Clinton managed to use this trick for his own self-preservation, but he severely damaged the Democratic Party (including losing Congress) by pulling this trick.


... (0.00 / 0)
More recently, here and elsewhere, we've seen the opposite side argued.  Obama is not lying about Reagan's record, he's reframing it.  Obama is not  spinning Reagan's record, he's reframing it.

Obama said nothing about Reagan's record.  He was talking about his political acumen.

Did you watch the whole interview?  Read the transcript?


You can't divide up like that (4.00 / 1)
it's ironic you would talk about reading, and then selectively parse a bigger dialogue- namely that of contextualization. It doesn't matter what he thought he was doing. The context in which he acts also matters. Until you understand that you will never understand diaries such as this.

[ Parent ]
?? (0.00 / 0)
It doesn't matter what he thought he was doing?? 

Can you imagine for one instant that any candidate for the most powerful position in the world doesn't measure every action they take, that they are always speaking to a national audience?

Context is what matters??

Context is measured from one's perspective.  If you want to limit yourself to the simplistic idea that Obama was only speaking to a backwater newspaper editorial board, then your context might matter.  If you look at the context from a national candidate point of view and know, surely, the camera trained on you will catch your words and air them to all those California voters who loved Reagan, then that context matters.

Or you could simply read what the fella said and quite blowing smoke about what is historical fact.


[ Parent ]
You are wrong. (0.00 / 0)
here are the various definitions of the word context:

"6 results for: context
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www.All-LearnEnglish.org Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
con·text  [kon-tekst] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-noun
1. the parts of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage, usually influencing its meaning or effect: You have misinterpreted my remark because you took it out of context.
2. the set of circumstances or facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc.
3. Mycology. the fleshy fibrous body of the pileus in mushrooms.
[Origin: 1375-1425; late ME < L contextus a joining together, scheme, structure, equiv. to contex(ere) to join by weaving (con- con- + texere to plait, weave) + -tus suffix of v. action; cf. text]

-Related forms
con·text·less, adjective

-Synonyms 2. background, milieu, climate.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
con·text  (k?n't?kst')  Pronunciation Key 
n. 
The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word or passage and determines its meaning.
The circumstances in which an event occurs; a setting.

[Middle English, composition, from Latin contextus, from past participle of contexere, to join together : com-, com- + texere, to weave; see teks- in Indo-European roots.]

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Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Online Etymology Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
context 
1432, from L. contextus "a joining together," orig. pp. of contexere "to weave together," from com- "together" + textere "to weave" (see texture).

Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper
WordNet - Cite This Source - Share This
context

noun
1.  discourse that surrounds a language unit and helps to determine its interpretation
2.  the set of facts or circumstances that surround a situation or event; "the historical context"

WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.
Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary (Beta Version) - Cite This Source - Share This
context [?kontekst] noun
the parts directly before or after a word or phrase (written or spoken) which affect its meaning"

Not one of which in a political sense can be read to mean Obam alone gets to determine his meaning of his words. THe context here is what is understood by evoking the name Reagan within the common political language,a nd not one that is accorind to Obama's own perspective.

It's the height of hubris or naivette, and I frankly don't care anymore which, to argue that all that matters is what the thought he meant. He's not living in a bubble. The idea that the great unifier and his accolytes would argue context in such a manner is just bizzare.

But let's be honest- you don't really care about context. This is about Obama. I get that.  And yes, as was stated below- you are shilling and spinning.


[ Parent ]
LOL (0.00 / 0)
Before I accept being summarily dismissed, one more shot...

#1 addresses my continual question did anyone here see the entire interview or read the transcript...or are words being plucked out to make a dog whistle case?

#2 Is met in that he's a national candidate perfectly aware that every move he makes, every word he utters is under the microscope.

Your assumptions are narrow built on a biased framework.

Look...his message is unity to solve our problems.  He's speaking to a nation, not a slice of the Democratic party.  You and others seem to have made up your minds that you don't like him...fine.  There are other choices.

Carry on...I hope you get to whatever goal you're striving for.


[ Parent ]
Just One Little Glitch... (0.00 / 0)
Uniting the country while dividing the base.

Is the answer:

(A) No problem, we're working on it?

(B) It's a feature, not a bug?

or...

(C) Both of the above?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
An Excellent Example Of Spin! (0.00 / 0)
Thank you for sharing!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I like the background in Framing (4.00 / 1)
I must admit the the details of the controversy with Booman went over my head, since I am not familiar with his writing.

However, I really appreciate the "crash course" in framing that is embedded in your post. It's very instructive. I like Jeffrey Feldman's blog, but don't have any background in linguistic framing; your post helps a lot.

By the way, Paul, I've really appreciated the posts you've been doing here at openleft. I followed Matt and Chris over from mydd, and I think it's great that you've joined them as a first-rate front-pager.

Your posts, and Digby's posts, on Obama's Reagan comments have helped me clarify my thought on that issue. Watching Obama say that stuff made me sick to my stomach, and my emotional response was so strong that I couldn't put my finger on everything that was wrong with what I was seeing. I understand it better now that a few days have passed

ec=-8.50 soc=-8.41   (3,967 Watts)


Glad I Could Help (0.00 / 0)
The best struggle is the struggle to explain, rather than to convince. 

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Layers (0.00 / 0)
Let's expand on the object/subject thing

When stuff is presented, that is the object, but there is a non-disclosed subject doing the presenting.

When we aren't aware of the background/subject we are standing in, then that is conveyed anyway, but we don't act as if that were the case.

So, there is always a frame going on, but not necessarily one we are conscious of, intentional about, or feeling responsible for.

'Framing' as an art is simply saying, make your de facto frames the result of conscious, intentional, well-considered choice.

The problem with this approach is that when you make your frames objects, then there is still yet a deeper subject doing this, which again is non-disclosed, perhaps unconscious, non-intentional and which we don't assume responsibility for.

This is what is being attacked, I think, when people get angry at 'framing.'
That it will be seen through and reinterpreted anyway, because people still can see you have a non-disclosed subject operational, and they react to that as much as your content and your now-intentional frames.

The question as we go deeper into making the unconscious subject conscious is not to simply drive the object/subject split deeper inside ourselves, because that won't necessarily change anything in terms of perceived legitimacy and ability to convince.

Rather, the usefulness is that any examination of unconscious parts is that it leads to an internal reconciliation of all parts of oneself with each other.
This is a kind of coherence, but not a strict, imposed, rigid one.
Rather it is the natural meaning of who you are as a whole, were all of you to be included in a conscious sorting-itself-out process.

All parts of you come into natural relationship with each other to a greater degree.
Then your content, your frames and even your unconscious subject tend to a greater degree to resonate clearly, unambiguously, naturally.
You support your own argument on all levels, because there is less bewilderment and internal conflict.
You don't even have to stay 100% conscious all the time for this to be the case, as long as your are conscious enough, enough of the time, that the tendency to accumulate junk in the background is balanced by regular waves of clearing-out and sorting-out.

Then you are not 'framing' but your de facto frames address the reality at hand well.

Intentionally adopting a frame from a book, may or may not lead to such a sorting-it-out process, it depends how you do it, and for what reason.
Generally asking questions, stimulating the internal process helps.
But on the other hand, having a pre-designated answer to it all just changes your arrangement, while leaving the undisclosed subject still operational, and still potentially at odds with content and frame.

In a discussion, as others present a point of view, one can simply agree and say 'yes!!' or one can include it and stimulate the internal sorting, considering.
Strong opinions that are well-constructed tend to lead people to just 'get on board' and that is a problem.

Because the best resolution is one that arises from within via conscious, open-minded holding of distinct facts, realities, feelings, tendencies, and just seeing where it wants to go.
Becoming an effective gardener of your own reality.

A president should lead this process in the nation, be the great guide of the nation's organic self-sorting process.


Basically, Yes (0.00 / 0)
I might have some minor quibbles, but basically, I agree with where you're going, which is why I've argued in the past that framing is not some specialized art for us to leave to the "experts"--speechwriters, consultants, ad-makers, etc.

However, I would also add that liberal frames are generally inherently conducive to this process, while conservative frames are not, and this goes directly back to the basic Strict Father/Nurturant Parent duality.  Liberal frames support listening, dialogue, nurturance, exploration, self-discovery.  Conservative frames support doing what you're told.

Thus, even getting liberal frames from a book will start to push one into the direction of the process you describe, while conservative frames will tend to arrest that process, even as one might try to reflect on them.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I suppose (0.00 / 0)
I understand what you're saying but I don't think the distinction is as clear as you seem to think it is. The glass half full example, that you use repeatedly, is really clumsy. If you're going to use an example it needs to be consistent. In this case the example of framing was a statement about the cup while the examples of spinning and lying were statements about what someone said about the cup. Add that to the obvious fact that the examples are about something completely different from what we're talking about and they end up doing very little to illustrate your point.

In the real world politicians need to decide:
1. What information to leave out.
2. The extent to which the conventional narrative needs to be challenged. We shouldn't spend out time correcting inaccuracies at the expense of making our point.
3. Which adjectives to use. Such adjectives can carry a variety of denotations and connotations that range from completely inaccurate to almost completely accurate. No word is adjective is ever perfect but many will be acceptable.
4. What tone to take. Optimistic or pessimistic? Cautious or certain? Unsurprised or bewildered? Angry or collected?
5. The timing of the response.
6. Probably many more.

I suppose it might be possible in principle to make a firm distinction between spinning and framing. Buy you haven't done so. In the context of actually political speech a degree of deception is expected as a result of subjective opinion and semantic ambiguity. Now I think it is important to be able to parse the statements of politicians but I also think it is silly to dogmatically reject anything that might be called spin.

Lets take your use of the term "Obamaphile" as an example. Sure, I guess it means someone who likes Obama so it is a pretty good descriptor of those who disagreed with you on this. On the other hand not everyone who disagreed with you actually supports Obama. So maybe that makes it a lie? But surely some people who disagree with you on this DO support Obama so now you're just generalizing. Maybe that's spinning- you're just leaving out the examples that are inconvenient. On the other hand the suffix -phile has a connotation of an irrational infatuation. Like a mental disease. Surely no one actually has a mental disorder that leads them to have an obsessive sexual fetish for the junior senator from Illinois, right?

So what is it? Framing? Spinning? Lying? Political speech is  not easily divisible into three categories of relative honesty.


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