Moving the goalposts for Clinton and Obama on FISA

by: Tim Tagaris

Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 18:41

Jane is first with the good news that both Senators Clinton and Obama plan on returning to D.C. to vote "no" on Mitch McConnell's cloture motion tomorrow at 4:30 P.M.

I can hardly contain my enthusiasm [/sarcasm]...

Look, it's certainly great news they will be voting the right way here, but let's be honest, so is Jay Rockefeller. This isn't a tough vote. And frankly, they were gonna be back in D.C. anyway for the State of the Union.

And while we should be doing everything we possibly can to ensure we have the 41 votes necessary to stop cloture, it's a vote that I don't think is in doubt at this point (hope I don't have to eat those words).

The real test of their leadership on this issue will come on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday.

If it was good politics to return to D.C. for the farm bill in the days before the Iowa Caucuses to please Tom Harkin, it's good politics to return to D.C. and stop the President's continued erosion of the Constitution. Unless we see an uprecedented capitulation in advance of the SOTU address, the only votes in doubt for this one will happen on Tuesday, Wednesday and maybe Thursday.

So, maybe I am expecting a bit more from our Presidential candidates, but who will return for those votes that will be close to 50/50? Who will join Chris Dodd in a filibuster? Who demonstrate the leadership necessary to bring their endorsers on board to cast a vote they wouldn't otherwise be inclined to? And who will refuse to wilt under the Republican charges that Democrats don't want to eavesdrop on al-Qaeda, and use their presidential megaphone to stand up for the Constitution?

That's what I am looking for in the days ahead ...

Tim Tagaris :: Moving the goalposts for Clinton and Obama on FISA

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Moving the goalposts for Clinton and Obama on FISA | 14 comments

and if they stayed until Thursday (2.40 / 5)

wouldn't you complain that they didn't stay until Friday?

Also, will staying until Thursday prevent Bush / Rockerfeller FISA proponents from getting 60 votes?

by: taylormattd @ Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 23:59:23 PM UTC

by: you @ soon

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Hmmmmmmmmmmm........... (4.00 / 3)

Les see...

Hillary Rodham Clinton....stateswoman, candidate for President, wife of Bill Clinton, Senator.

Barrack Hussein Obama...community organizer, candidate for President, advocate for change, Senator.

Why! Looky! They're both Senators of the United States. I do believe they get paid to compensate them for that onerous position. Healthcare too.

What is the problem with them doing their jobs, pal?

Can you explain to me why they shouldn't be on the floor of the Senate doing their jobs?

I'd really like to hear that.

Maybe I could use it on my boss next time I want to skip work.....

60 votes?

Simple.

Filibuster.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.

by: ACitizen @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 00:05:56 AM UTC

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by: you @ soon

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shouldn't (4.00 / 1)

you be off voting for McCain, Nestor?

by: taylormattd @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 00:08:38 AM UTC

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by: you @ soon

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Hah...hah...hah....Yer still fact free! (0.00 / 0)

Got a call there was a troll infestation here. So...

Came a whackin'

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.

by: ACitizen @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 00:13:47 AM UTC

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fact free? (4.00 / 1)

hmmm:

I really do not support his election in the GE... (0.00 / 2)
.....because when his jaws clench the earth in defeat, hah...lil' Homer for you 'academics' out there, this defeat will be ascribed to his 'progressive approach...'.
Sorry, rather have McCain than this guy. At least McCain is 'smart' enough to know he's stupid.
Obama.....
Whatevah!
Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.
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by: ACitizen @ Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 06:03:49 AM PST
[ Parent | Reply | none0: Troll4: Recommended ]

McCain supporter.

by: taylormattd @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 00:28:45 AM UTC

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This should be very interesting indeed.... (0.00 / 0)

......will The Hill realize how much the citizenry care about this issue, will Obama?

I, as is well known here, don't like either one of them for even dog-catcher, but I am prepared to be surprised.

It will be a great measure of if, and how well, they can hear the citizenry.

This is the most galvanizing issue of the last year as to getting the attention of the citizenry. The response to Jane's campaign and those of others is proof positive. I can see it clearly on my tiny blog. People care about this very deeply.

I am looking forward to seeing what sort of leaders Obama and Clinton are now, right now not in the future or back in 2002, on an issue where leadership is what is needed.

Note: Those low-info folks who think it is not? Please return to that warm, snug spot under the bridge without violating Mark Twain's rule #1. Thanks.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.

by: ACitizen @ Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 23:59:37 PM UTC

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You are so right... (0.00 / 0)

nothing is ever enough. Ever.

by: Elise @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 00:04:19 AM UTC

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Well you know what.... (0.00 / 0)

............. Nietzsche said.

And then there was Truman's adage. But then Truman was a real leader not a product of 'Versailles'.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.

by: ACitizen @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 00:11:53 AM UTC

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by: you @ soon

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Tim's right (4.00 / 1)

Actually, they're not needed tomorrow at all, except for theatrics (and/or maybe getting their endorsers like Sens. McCaskill and Bayh to do the right thing).

Cloture is almost sure to go down now. If you go by the votes on tabling the Judiciary committee's version of the bill, we start at 60 - 36 for the bad guys. 60 is the magic number, so, unless Obama or Clinton plan on voting for cloture, their votes don't really matter. McCain will be busy campaigning in Florida before he loses to the Mittster, so he won't help. I'm assuming Lindsay Graham votes for cloture, so that makes it 61 votes for cloture.

Rockefeller already said he won't vote for cloture at this junction, so back down to 60. I believe I read that Bayh will vote against cloture at this point as well, so it should be over. Regardless, if Reid can't twist two arms from that group of 12 over to his side now on the easy vote, then this fight was over a long time ago, in spite of Sen. Dodd's courage and willingness to fight for us.

The question is, will Clinton and Obama be there to vote for removing immunity from Title 2, and/or improving the minimization requirements of Title 1 (or vice/versa, I can't remember anymore). Those, and the final votes on cloture and passage, are the votes that count.

by: Ron @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 00:20:31 AM UTC

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Where are the goalposts? (0.00 / 0)

I agree with the general thrust of this post-- it's a good point that a no vote cloture isn't all the meaningful if there aren't the 41 total votes necessary to stop cloture.

But I think that the tile of you post is a bit misleading. We'd all like the to see the candidates take a more firm stand opposing telecom immunity. But were there ever really widely agreed upon goalposts for determining what a satisfying response for the candidates on FISA is? If there were I missed that discussion.

Let's not be too hasty denounce the gestures Clinton and Obama are making on this issue. It was never a given that would even show up to vote against cloture. Give credit where credit is due. First, let's praise them, then let's ask for more.

by: geothenes @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 00:30:47 AM UTC

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41 isn't needed to stop cloture (4.00 / 2)

The people seeking cloture have the burden of securing 60 votes. If the vote on cutting off debate was 59 yes to 1 no, the people seeking cloture would fail and debate would continue. The no votes do not matter in seeking to cut off debate.

by: taylormattd @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 00:39:12 AM UTC

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Good point (0.00 / 0)

It does make voting no seem even less meaningful, I guess. Not showing up would serve the same procedural purpose.

by: geothenes @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 01:40:41 AM UTC

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by: you @ soon

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Doing the least they can do (0.00 / 0)

I'm glad they are at least doing this, but it is by no means leadership. Has Obama ever given a stirring speeach about anything other than his own candidacy? I'd love to see one about the constitution sometime. And let's see HRC work hard with Dodd to organize the filibuster.

Then I'll be impressed.

by: saidanddone @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 09:01:29 AM UTC

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WELL SAID!!!! (0.00 / 0)

That's it - I couldn't agree more.

by: benny1368 @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 10:55:02 AM UTC

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Moving the goalposts for Clinton and Obama on FISA | 14 comments