Can The Pennsylvania Interval Be Avoided?

by: Chris Bowers

Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:06


Four years ago, John Kerry became the presumptive Democratic nominee on March 2nd. His Republican opponent was George Bush, who had already united the Republican Party, built the largest financial warchest in Presidential campaign history, was hovering at just over 50% in approval rating, and had been running against John Kerry for a entire month based on over two years of opposition research. Given all of those advantages, George Bush still only defeated John Kerry by 2.46% nationwide, and narrowly won the Electoral College in Ohio under dubious circumstances.

Considering the far more favorable climate to Democrats have in 2008, the growing conventional wisdom that the still undecided Democratic campaign will somehow hurt the eventual Democratic nominee strikes me as bogus. If we have a nominee on March 4th instead of March 2nd, that is a difference of only two days. Further, during the next few weeks, both of our candidates will be running advertisements and receiving huge press in key swing states like Ohio, Virginia and Wisconsin. When it is all over, we will have a Democratic nominee with a lot more money than Kerry, a much higher name ID, a far less unified Republican Party, and a much more favorable political climate. Adding on an extra month actually strikes me as very good for Democrats, rather than something to worry about.

However, what happens if the nomination goes on after March 4th? As I explain in the extended entry, this could be something of a problem.  

Chris Bowers :: Can The Pennsylvania Interval Be Avoided?
There is a six-week interval between Mississippi on March 11th, and Pennsylvania on April 22nd, Forty-two days is a lot of empty space to fill, especially if the campaign is just as undecided then as it is now. News coverage could shift back toward McCain, and one the media's all-time favorite narratives, "Democrats divided," will have a lot of credibility for a long time. Both Democrats can spend a long time campaigning in the key swing state of Pennsylvania, but McCain won't be so restricted to one state. Fundraising isn't a problem, since Obama is now raising money at a rate equal to John Kerry in 2004, but spending it might be. Since both Clinton and Obama would still need to throw everything just at winning the nomination, in a post-March 4th campaign Democrats will be effectively spending less money targeting the Republican nominee in 2008 than they did in 2004.

So, I like this overtime, but I am a little worried about what could happen if the primary continues to be undecided after March 4th. The odds of either candidate dropping out on March 5th are not very good, either. In order to knock Obama out, Clinton probably needs to take about a 75-100 pledged delegate lead after Ohio and Texas. However, since Obama looks set to build an even larger pledged delegate lead over the next two weeks, that just isn't bloody likely. On the other side of the coin, Obama could conceivably knock Clinton out if he sweeps every state through March 11th, building a clear advantage in pledged delegates, popular support, fundraising and momentum. However, polling in both Ohio and Texas look pretty good for Clinton right about now, If she wins either state, and stays within 150 pledged delegates of Obama, she will probably soldier on to Pennsylvania. Expect talk of super delegates and Michigan / Florida to only intensify during that period, too.

I am really feeling good about this campaign right now, as most of the country is allowed a meaningful chance to vote, as both campaigns recover from multiple major setbacks, as both are now rising huge waves of grassroots support, as media attention solidifies around Democrats, and as the political climate stays very strong for Democrats. However, if we enter the six-week Pennsylvania Interval, I'm not sure if I will be feeling good anymore. Convince me either that the campaign will end before we reach that six-week break, or that it is a good thing if we reach that six-week break undecided. My gut reaction is not positive, but perhaps I am just being pessimistic.  


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My Fears Exactly (0.00 / 0)
If Obama can sweep through and win Ohio and Texas, Clinton is probably finished. But if he doesn't, I don't see how we avoid a battle which goes at least to Pennsylvania. If Clinton wins Wisconsin and then carries TX, OH, and PA, then Obama will be forced out. Otherwise this goes to the convention. No other scenario really seems plausible.

Yeah,it has been fun so far (4.00 / 1)
But if it goes to Pennsylvania, how is that fun? And I say that as someone who lives in PA. Further, if it goes to PA, how does it not keep going until June?

Right about now, I wish the Democratic convention was in July.  


[ Parent ]
here's the thing, though (0.00 / 0)
This isn't 1968 -- this isn't a division over deep issues of policy, with the exception (I think) of foreign policy.  It's largely a question of personality and focus, and that's not the kind of thing which is going to make our general election efforts unmanageable in any way.

[ Parent ]
I agree (0.00 / 0)
And if they're smart, they'll help themselves out by pulling punches with each other while simultaneously tag-teaming McCain.  There's so much raw material here for a sweeping Democratic victory in November--for either one of them.  If they can find a way to ensure that, regardless of the outcome, these two enormous activist armies can be fused after it's over, they'll be in good shape.  

[ Parent ]
One more thing... (4.00 / 1)
I know that they both have enormous egos and really, really, really want to win the nomination, but they also must realize that, as Atrios says, if either one of them wins the nomination but loses to McCain, they will become the most reviled figure in the Democratic Party.  So it's in both of their best interests to work together to lay a solid foundation for a Democratic victory in November, and that means playing (reasonably) nice with each other while doubling up on McCain.  Because they're like the rest of us--they don't know who the nominee will be themselves!

That's a sketch of a line of optimistic thinking.


[ Parent ]
Ever heard of the Liar's Paradox? (4.00 / 1)
Or the tragedy of the commons?

Long story short: it might well be in their collective interests to avoid a junkyard brawl, but it might still be in each of their individual interest to throw down. Don't presume the most rational outcome will prevail.


[ Parent ]
No and yes. (0.00 / 0)
I don't know about the "Liar's Paradox."  I looked it up on Wikipedia, but there the phrase just referred to statements such as "This statement is a lie," which can't be true or false.

But I do know about the tragedy of the commons.  The premise there is that if two actors would work together, they could both succeed.  But because each of them doesn't trust the other to cooperate, neither does.  The two cattle ranchers sharing the same pasture is the classic case.  

For several reasons, I don't think "tragedy of the commons" fits this scenario.  For one, it is impossible for both of them to win the nomination (and a joint ticket would be a tremendous disappointment for the VP pick, whomever it was).   For two, if one of them goes extremely negative, it's unclear that the other would feel compelled to go negative to avoid getting wiped out.  In fact, the pattern thus far in the campaign has been the opposite.  Both sides have been nitpicky about calling the other side's tactics "negative," when in my opinion there has been surprisingly little negative campaigning.  

For a third, there are two levels of losing in this situation, one infinitely worse than the other.  Losing the nomination battle is not going to be a death blow to either of their careers.  Losing the general election however, most likely would be--at least to their world-changing ambitions.  So I'm giving them some credit for realizing that they each, personally, have strong self-interest at stake in putting the Democratic Party in a strong position.

A game theorist could probably write that a lot better (or disprove it!).


[ Parent ]
not liar's paradox (0.00 / 0)
I think what you're referring to is the prisoner's dilemma

[ Parent ]
oop (0.00 / 0)
My bad - yeah, that's what i meant.

[ Parent ]
You mean prisoners' dilemma? (0.00 / 0)
If both talk, they each get 5 years.
If one talks, he gets off and the other gets 10 years.
If neither talks, they both get off.

But since they are interrogated separately, neither can be sure the other won't talk.  So its in their interests to talk.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
If neither talks, they get 6 months (0.00 / 0)
Usually prisoners dilemma has the following rules:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P...

I think it is a good model for the situation between Clinton and Obama. It's much better if they both refrain from attack politics. Actually, I think the first one to go negative will be punished in the polls, so it may be even simpler than P.D.


[ Parent ]
Margins Matter More than States (0.00 / 0)
I don't think you can say that if Obama sweeps, or if Obama loses four big states it goes one way or the other.  It depends a lot on margins and delegate allocation.  If Obama sweeps, but by very small margins, it doesn't put Clinton away with her heavy superdelegate support.  Similarly, if Obama loses TX, OH, WI, and PA by small margins, and wins the other states by large margins, he is still very much in this.  

[ Parent ]
Can Pennsylvania move up? (0.00 / 0)
It's not like it's leapfrogging anybody. Moving the PA date up 2 weeks would be a reasonable solution. Is that possible?  

John McCain

maybe MI and FL caucuses? (0.00 / 0)
I know it is pretty far-fetched, but what if MI and FL agreed to have caucuses a week apart in early April? I'm sure the state parties and the Clinton campaign would never agree to it, but if it did happen it seems like it could solve a lot of problems:

1) More delegates at stake in April ups the odds that one candidate can take a decisive lead after PA

2) Spreads out the intensity a bit, and forces candidates to campaign in 3 important swing states


[ Parent ]
NOT caucuses (0.00 / 0)
Closed curtain primaries only.

[ Parent ]
It's in PA's interest (0.00 / 0)
to get 6 weeks of attention rather than less, so even if they could, I doubt they will.

[ Parent ]
Its an interesting question (0.00 / 0)
One really has to wonder if pressure will start to be applied to the candidates to work something out during that interval.  I'm not sure what.  I suppose a combined ticket, but who gets the top?  My initial reaction is that Hillary is the obvious choice, but then you have to wonder.  Is there any circumstance under which Obama would find it worthwhile to take the VP slot?  He will certainly be one of the most marginalized Veeps in recent history, considering Hillary's management tendencies and Bill's obvious central position in the WH.  On the other hand, with Hillary as VP, the Clinton will still wield tremendous power and certainly have enormous influence in an OBama WH.  They will still make history as the first Female on a ticket to win.  I imagine they would have powers akin to Those of Chaney--though hopefully better used.

The Politics of Bruno S.


Let her be Senate Majority leader (0.00 / 0)
Where she can put her experience and political skills to good work and shape the legisaltion on health car stc more the way she wants.  Seriously.  Reid is outcloassed,  and they won't pick Dodd or Durbin.  But for peace in the valley?  

Or maybe the Senbators don't care.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
no way either one (4.00 / 1)
wants the VP slot. it would be embarrassing for Hillary and maybe frustrating to Obama to have her husband loitering around, and it would be pointless for Obama to be VP per your observation - third fiddle to the duo, bleck, i wouldn't want that job.  

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
I don't think a big deal (4.00 / 2)
McCain and his allies in the media can't really start digging in their claws until the Dem nominee is known (if they do, they'll just waste their ammo influencing who the Dem nominee is, instead of helping in November). And besides, 95% of the public hasn't tuned in yet, and that includes virtually ALL swing voters. Now, if it goes all Summer and we STILL don't have a nominee, and their respective supporters start tearing each other apart, we've got a problem.

trying to figure out a deal here in Michigan (0.00 / 0)
alot of chatter on Miliberal to cut a deal on ours and FL delegates.  I personally suggested March 11th as an ideal date for both our states to "re"-caucus.  The longer we wait, the more harmful.  This is 367 delegates that could and should be decisive in the nomination process.  I suspect Obama won't budge until results come in Tuesday night.  Clinton may act if she wins a state or two.  Either way, I'm hoping Dean has some plans in the works so he can call both camps next week and try to iron out a deal.  
Another idea is to try and compel the super delegates to declare their voting endorsement on or before say March 11th for states that have voted up to that point. Of course, I have no idea how to enforce such an idea because super delegates may get to the convention and change their vote.
But I don't really worry about the 6 week gap since one of the candidates should have a lead in delegates that should make one of them the front runner, negating the "democrats divided" meme.  Although I think it's great that more than 40 states will have had a substantial say in the nominee, we as a party, have to agree that getting to a nominee before the convention is ideal and God knows we are hoping to figure something out up here in MI.

MI/FL (4.00 / 1)
If MI and FL are going to get replayed I like the idea of doing it then (and not in June), but I'd like to see it happen in that gap somewhere, maybe March 25.  That takes some of the pressure off the campaigns to focus exclusively on PA during that period and allows for some break-up of the narrative during those six weeks.

[ Parent ]
My analysis of drop out scenarios... (4.00 / 2)
After March 11th, 2687 of the 3253 available delegates will have been assigned.  That leaves 566 pledged delegates to win in the post-3/11 Environment (Consisting mostly of Pennsylvania and North Carolina).

Since neither candidate - in isolation - is likely to pack it in entirely of their own volition at that point, it's probably worth examining what margin one of the candidates would need in order to create a critical mass of external pressure on their opponent to pack it in - or for the DNC to politely "encourage" the remaining supers to declare for the current leader to wrap things up.

By my logic a 60%-40% advantage for the trailing candidate across ALL of the post 3/11 states is sufficiently infeasible as to be a safe starting point for basing a victory margin off of.

So assume that the trailing candidate wins 60% of those 566 delegates.  This would be a net gain of 114 delegates for that candidate.

Let's say that that trailing candidate is Clinton.  If FL and MI were included (with MI uncommitteds being counted for Obama because we're talking about "conventional wisdom" rather than actual delegate math) Clinton would pick up an additional 60 delegates.  

So under an assumption that the best she could feasibly do was a 60%-40% advantage down the line, 174 delegate advantage for Obama should be sufficient to create enough pressure for her to give it up.  

Depending on your assumption of what constitutes an unrealistic percentage of delegates to win after 3/11 (the Obama campaign spreadsheet projects him picking up a small number of delegates across these states, so the best case here is unlikely to be THAT high), these numbers change:

50% 60
51% 71
52% 83
53% 94
54% 105
55% 117
56% 128
57% 139
58% 151
59% 162
60% 173

For the Obama side, just subtract 60 from each of these.  (Yes, this means that under a 50% assumption he should withdraw on a tie - but a 50% best case scenario isn't very realistic)

In actuality, since external pressure will mount to resolve the race, the actual numeric triggers are a bit lower.  

If Hillary is down by 100 pledged delegates after 3/11, I would think that a lot of pressure would be exerted on both her and the superdelegates to resolve the race quickly.

If Obama is down by any substantial amount at that point, I expect the reverse (if the decision to include or not include FL and MI decides this, it will be bad.)

I think the danger zone is between a 40 delegate Clinton lead and a 100 delegate Obama lead.  These ranges will probably still cause a fair amount of external pressure for a candidate to drop out, but there's still a good reason for the candidate to stay in in these scenarios.

If Obama's lead in pledged delegates exceeds what I consider to be a CW FL+MI advantage (60 delegates) after 3/11, I think there will still be a lot of pressure on Clinton - just quite probably not enough for her to actually drop out.

The absolute worst case scenario is one in which Obama has a lead which is just under the impact that FL and MI might have - say, a 40 delegate lead.  In this situation, I find it hard to believe that either candidate would be willing to drop out, and the external pressure would likely be too divided to accomplish anything.

(The DNC needs to act proactively and schedule make-up caucuses in FL and MI.  Even if we never get to them, having them exist will help make this primary far more legitimate - and likely speed its resolution, as it would narrow the delegate lead ranges which would be required for one of the candidates to drop out.)


Again, NOT caucuses (0.00 / 0)
closed curtain primaries only...

[ Parent ]
Either way... (0.00 / 0)
I'd be happy with primaries as well.

If the nomination comes down to FL and MI, we need to have unambiguously legitimate results obtained upon a level playing field.  The choice between giving the states no voice and honoring a bad-faith contest is a very poor one that results only in a loss of credibility for the Democratic party as a while.

I think Obama likely wouldn't win either state, but the margins in the current uncontested versions are completely illegitimate.

Hillary probably deserves some sort of delegate advantage from Michigan and Florida - the demographics fit her support base well.  But it should be legitimately determined.  (And either a primary or a caucus would be fine by me - I think the caucus logic may be that caucuses are cheaper)


[ Parent ]
caucuses (0.00 / 0)
Also because my understanding is that the state Dems can't actually hold another primary without getting the state leg to agree, something that will be impossible.

Probably the best result would be a New Mexico like "caucus", which I think is basically just a primary run by the state party (although I think without absentee ballots).


[ Parent ]
Agree with your analysis (4.00 / 1)
Very well argued. I think, though, that the odds of Obama having a 100+ pledged delegate lead by 3/11 are high.  

[ Parent ]
Chris, it is no fun if we end up losing in November (0.00 / 0)
to the old man.  Obama has the path ( more so than Clinton at this point) to the nomination.  If he kills her in the caucuses(like he has been doing)and wins all the primaries from now until March 4th he is in position to finish her off on that date.  However, he needs to win both Texas and Ohio (not convincingly, but by 3-4 points).  If she wins Ohio and or Texas or both, then it is a mess...added to the mess is the Michigan Florida thing and what to do with those delegates.  When it is all said and done, the Democratic Party and Chairman Dean will have found a way to lose a presidential election that we had no business losing.  I hope not, but it looks like it is headed that way if he does not finish her off.

Nervous of Caucuses (0.00 / 0)
Everyone has been saying Obama is good at Caucuses, and this seems to be the case.  But Clinton did win Nevada and roughly tie in New Mexico.  I'm not sure how hard she tried in the Super Tuesday caucuses.  Right now, everyone is expecting an Obama blowout and yet again Clinton is playing the expectations game much, much better.  If she wins just a single state over the next week it will look like a huge victory.

[ Parent ]
the reason that there is an expected blowout (0.00 / 0)
in the caucus states is that the Clinton team has not invested time effort or money in them because they are expensive.  Draw whatever conclusion that you want for that reason ($, strategy, whatever).  Poll in the Caucus states have him ahead by a lot.  I agree, her best chances at winning is Maine on Sunday, and MAYBE VA, but that is a stretch, with the last poll there, Obama up by 15.  But if she wins either VA or Wisconsin and Sweeps Ohio and Texas, he is in trouble.  Either way, it is a clusterfuck, due to the party and the people running it.

[ Parent ]
She might win Maine (0.00 / 0)
Obama's not only got the caucus advantage, but he seems to be ahead in the polls in Washington, and Nebraska matches very closely demographically with states Obama's already won (Iowa, Kansas, North Dakota).  I don't see him losing either of those.

Beyond that, it's mostly not caucuses.  Obama is favored in LA because of the large black vote, in MD because of the black vote and the educated professional vote; in Virginia for the same reason (and because a new poll shows him way up); and in Wisconsin because it's similar to mid-western states he's already won.

I think Wisconsin, not the caucus states, is the real danger spot for Obama.


[ Parent ]
he is up by 15 points there...maybe...if that is his (0.00 / 0)
biggest weakness, then she is in big trouble.  She needs to blow him away on March 4th.  And by then it will be 4 weeks of Rudy all over again....the more I think of it, she will be done on March 4th if she doesn't do something in the next couple of weeks.  Texas is a primary and a caucus...remember...Ohio is the one spot that will be interesting...but with her and Bill's NAFTA thing, she is pretty done...I think?  (pure speculation on my part).

[ Parent ]
Up by 15? (0.00 / 0)
Where are you seeing up by 15?  ARG has Clinton up 9 (Poll dated today)

I'm not confident about either Wisconsin or Maine.


[ Parent ]
I think (0.00 / 0)
georgeg1011 figures that since ARG is always 25 points off that Obama has a 15 point lead in Wisconsin, unless Clinton has a 35 point lead.  Anyway, Milwaukee and its environs might be good territory for Clinton, although since it is so close to Chicago Obama might be able to call in a lot of foot soldiers for a day or two of campaigning.  I would expect Madison to go heavily for Obama. Rural areas in the midwest seem to be friendly to Obama.  In California they broke heavily for Clinton.  If Clinton loses Wisconsin and either Texas or Ohio, it might be over, but no one at this stage expects her to lose either.  

[ Parent ]
Milwaukee itself (0.00 / 0)
is 40% Black and only 15% Hispanic.  That ought to be decent Obama territory.  The suburbs and places like Green Bay ought to be good for Clinton

[ Parent ]
Yeah, I would think it would make more sense (0.00 / 0)
for Clinton to be throwing her money at WI than VA

[ Parent ]
The reason Obama wins caucus states (0.00 / 0)
is that he works for them more than Clinton does. (In the case of most of the Feb 5 caucuses, something like 100% more). The exception was Nevada, where he lost. Assuming "caucus = Obama win" is completely baseless. Whoever works more wins.

Given this, does anyone know how much work he's put into the current and upcoming caucus states? Say, Maine?


[ Parent ]
Yeah... (0.00 / 0)
I'm not totally sanguine about Washington.  It seems like potentially good territory for Clinton.  We'll see what happens there, I guess.

[ Parent ]
Media narrative (0.00 / 0)
First of all, I think the odds of the campaign being over on March 4th are actually reasonably good. My sense of the developing narrative, which it seems like the Clinton campaign is encouraging, is it all is going to come down to Ohio and Texas. So if Clinton loses both states, the race is probably over and Obama is the nominee, regardless of whether Clinton officially drops out on March 5th. If Clinton convincingly wins in Ohio and Texas (big enough to take even a small lead in delegates), especially if Obama has had a really good February, the narrative is that Obama can't close, and I don't think he recovers. Mississippi probably won't get enough attention for Obama to use a big win there to rebuild momentum, and the "youth enthusiasm not turning into votes" narrative is one that the media likes, and is already cropping up a little bit.

However, if it is not over on March 4th, I think it depends on how the campaigns react. If either goes into scorched earth mode (either after March 4th or sometime in the next month), the "Democrats divided" stories will be unstoppable. But I've already seen some pushback against the Democrats divided story (for instance, Matt Bai had a post on the NYT politics blog about how the real narrative should be that Democrats can't choose between two dynamic and skilled candidates). If the campaign stays relatively clean, and the rest of the debates are like the one in LA, then maybe the Democrats really love their candidates this year narrative can take hold. Pushing the poll numbers showing that Obama supporters like Clinton and Clinton supporters like Obama, as well as the turnout numbers showing incredible excitement, might help this narrative.

Also, there is the chance that with McCain firmly established as the Republican nominee, both Obama and Clinton will campaign against him, trying to demonstrate that they are the one that can win in November. I've already seem some of this on both their campaign sites, as both are featuring some version of the "why I can beat McCain" argument. That could actually give us an advantage, as it is hard for McCain to effectively attack the Democratic nominee when there isn't one, but easy for both Democrats to attack McCain from different angles.


Remember this: (0.00 / 0)
If Obama runs the table for the rest of February, Clinton will have gone a Giuliani-esque 4 weeks without winning anything, and will be at least 100 delegates in the hole. (I give her her best chances in Maine and Wisconsin; but even if she wins Maine, that won't give her much mo', since it'll get buried in Tuesday's forthcoming rout. Wisconsin might be a bigger deal, but Obama still has to be favored there.)

And: I don't see Ohio being as favorable to Clinton as CW has it. The Dem electorate is about 20% black, so if they go to Obama 80-20 (as they have just about everywhere); then, even if Clinton wins the white vote 65-35, she would only win the overall Ohio vote 56-44 or so. That would only be good enough to pick up about a 20-delegate advantage at the most.

The math is similar for Texas, with a similar proportion of black voters - though with a lot more Hispanic voters, of course; but assuming, again, a non-black vote for Clinton of 65-35, working out to an overall 56-44 Clinton win, that is still only enough to pick up about a 25-30 delegate advantage. So: combined, let's be generous and say +50 delegates for Clinton on March 4th (I'm figuring VT and RI to cancel out, more or less). But Obama is almost certain to already be ahead by 100 pledged delegates, and maybe more. And this is still not factoring in the certain momentum boost he'll get from his upcoming victories.

Taken together, I think there has to be at least a 50% chance of Clinton being effectively out of the race on March 5th.


I'm not sure it's Giulianiesque (4.00 / 2)
What was so embarrassing for Giuliani was not just that he wasn't winning.  It's that he got massacred everywhere, and usually got fewer votes than Ron Paul.  Clinton has already won a bunch of big states and a ton of delegates.  It won't be perceived the same way as Giuliani's losses at all.

[ Parent ]
More even... (0.00 / 0)
The other problem was the sheer comedy of the "This is exactly according to our strategy!" act as they fell further and further behind.

It got a lot of play, precisely because it was so ridiculous.


[ Parent ]
They are actually doing that (0.00 / 0)
Looking at it, they are actually pulling a "all exactly as we expected, move along, nothing to see here" strategy.  We'll see if it works.

[ Parent ]
also (0.00 / 0)
Guiliani's polls numbers immediately started dropping everywhere as soon as he started campaigning there. So his whole campaign was a series of continual downward momentum.

I don't think Clinton's problem is going to be negative momentum. Clinton is going to have a problem if Obama starts gaining momentum rapidly again, powered by a string of impressive wins in Feb.  


[ Parent ]
I agree with that much (0.00 / 0)
It won't be that bad, but it'll at least be some bad.

Plus this: Obama has risen considerably in just about every state he's contested (as HC's name-ID/familiarity advantage evaporates). Can you really see him underperforming this scenario -i.e., getting less than 35% of the white vote? I think it's close to the best case scenario for Clinton


[ Parent ]
I think there is even more presure on Clinton than perceived (0.00 / 0)
because this all wraps up in North Carolina May 6th. And Obama will landslide NC just like SC. This means Hillary would have to have a huge win in Penn and at least a good showing in either Ohio or Texas, and she has to keep it tight everywhere else too. This is the key, NC is Obama's backup Ace. Hillary needs to be out in front by a lot before then, and that's looking just about impossible. She's going to be rather far behind by March, and remember she's never lead in the Delegate count in this race. Then March 4th she not just has to win Texas or Ohio, she needs to win big so that when she goes to Pennsylvania she can land the knockout and Obama won't be able to recover in NC.

If Obama is up by roughly 30 right now, and will probably be up by 70 when he's done running the table in February. If Hillary is lucky she can win huge in Texas and Ohio ( not likely ) and even the score or maybe take a marginal lead. Then she needs to landslide in Penn to offset the final landslide Obama will delivery in NC.

Know what? it's over. Hillary just doesn't know it yet.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


It does not wrap up in North Carolina (0.00 / 0)
Puerto Rico has a big bloc of delegates and they vote on June 7.  Obama will be under pressure to have a big enough lead to survive what could be a Hillary rout there.

[ Parent ]
thats only 63 delegates (0.00 / 0)
he'll easily safe guard against that with wins in Kentucky Oregon Montana and South Dakota before then

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
Kentucky (4.00 / 1)
Will likely go to Hillary.  Maybe Oregon too.

[ Parent ]
Kentucky (0.00 / 0)
Will likely go to Hillary.  Maybe Oregon too.

[ Parent ]
In any case (0.00 / 0)
Your original premise that Hillary has to have a big enought win in Pennsylvania to withstand North Carolina is wrong...Obama will need to have a big enough win in North Carolina to withstand Puerto Rico.

[ Parent ]
Puerto Rico Winner Take All? (0.00 / 0)
If that is the case then it is big

[ Parent ]
I'm with you (0.00 / 0)
this thing's probably over. She's probably going to lose badly in February, that will probably have further negative effects, which means she will probably not be able to win both OH and TX.

She's toast. Probably.


[ Parent ]
Keeping it going (0.00 / 0)
If it keeps going after TX and OH, then the candidates have to publicly or at least privately agree that they will keep things positive and will select the other as their running mate.  Then let them compete all the way to the convention if they need to.  It would be riveting theater and keep the nation's interest in the Democratic race high.  Picking the other as the runnnig mate would mean a fairly quick transition to unifying the party with a minimum of disappointed partisans.

Tough (0.00 / 0)
It will be tough. my one hope is that the two campaigns compete on the basis of who can attack McCain the best.

more here

Me | My Work | Future Majority


Exactly...two are even better than one! (0.00 / 0)
I don't share this "concern" about the negative possibilities. The media frenzy following this race will be VERY good for the party and bring even more into the excitement. Good for Democrats as McCain kind of twists in the wind.

[ Parent ]
No reason to be afraid...an extended campaign (0.00 / 0)
will be VERY good as long as they don't go nuclear on each other. They learned their lesson on that one.

But the media frenzy that will result and constant talk about the campaigns is equal to millions of dollars of free publicity. And many more people have time to get involved and become excited about being a Democrat again.

This will be a positive thing, as long as they don't go too negative on each other with the media picking that up as a theme.


Could be nuclear to the party (0.00 / 0)
The longer this runs into the summer the more likely we have a brokered convention and assuming MI/FL haven't had a do over, the problem with those two states still exists.  The problem with a brokered convention is one group is going to feel like they got hosed (women or AA's).  Could be really bad for the party as a whole.  What happens if Obama has delegate and state lead, but trails slightly in popular vote.  If Clinton then wins nomination, you don't think AA community might be a little perturbed.  Also, throw in MI/FL debacle to the supers determining who would win.  The convention could stink of backdoor deals and political buyouts and make dems look stupid.  

[ Parent ]
One of two ain't bad (0.00 / 0)
"Convince me either that the campaign will end before we reach that six-week break, or that it is a good thing if we reach that six-week break undecided. My gut reaction is not positive, but perhaps I am just being pessimistic."

I can't convince you of the former.  Clinton could be knocked out by then, but it seems unlikely, and Obama will certainly not be, absent pictures coming to light of him, Rezko, and Bin Laden having drinks together in Peshawar.

But I don't see what the big deal is about the primary last into April.  Not that much really happens publicly in a presidential election during this time - its just preliminary sparring.  You obviously want to start organizing and raising money as early as possible. But lets be honest.  We are not going to be short of money in the general.  And while organizing is a concern, its offset by two factors.  First is that a lot of organization for a general happens outside the candidate's campaign anyway.  People at the DNC, in labor, and in Dem consultancies are going to be working overtime no matter what.  Second, as the campaigns continue they are picking up and mobilizing activists in every state that they enter.  That will leave huge contact bases and networks of people that can be more easily organized next fall.  

That last organizational point also has ramifications for all parts of the ticket next fall.  For example, I am really happy about the fact that both campaigns are probably going to be working the ground heavily in Texas.  Its not going to go blue, but it may really help us in other races there.

John McCain: Health insurance for low income children represents an "unfunded liability."


A modest proposal to kill two birds with one stone... (0.00 / 0)
Problem #1 is the six week interval before Pennsylvania.

Problem #2 is Michigan and Florida versus the legitimacy of their delegates.

How about we allow a caucus for Michigan and for Florida three weeks into this period?  That still gives three weeks before Pennsylvania, and both of the "banned" states can create "cleaner" delegates not tainted by the schedule move-up.

It would probably mean that the DNC should provide some kind of modest financial aid to both state parties to pay for these caucuses, a loan at the least.  Because all of the delegates did sign on to Florida, a proportion of the primary vote that's already taken place should probably count - say 50%-60%.  That gives the Clinton folks something to hang onto and less of a reason to complain about caucuses there.

I know there would be a lot more dickering involved than what I've proposed.  But it's a thought.


Caucuses "Discriminate" Against the Working Poor and Seniors (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Not in my state, bub.... (0.00 / 0)
Seniors are a lead pipe cinch to show up at our state's caucuses.  And especially since one of Hillary's more certain voting blocks are low-information voters who are working class people, her campaign has busted their chops getting their vote and their presence out there where they've felt it counted (New Hampshire, New York, New Jersey, California).

My experience is caucuses make it hard for successful blue (especially construction) and occasionally bright collar people working 24x7 to be available for them.  


[ Parent ]
Crazy Idea (0.00 / 0)
Instead of beating up on each other, the candidates run against Bush-Cheney-McCain and lay out their programs! What a crazy idea, eh?

bright spot (0.00 / 0)
I share your anxiety about the candidates exhausting resources while potentially sniping at each other if the campaign drags on. On the other hand, a long primary season/horserace keeps the media and the public focus on the Dems, while McCain and the Republicans will, relatively speaking, drop out of view. All the enthusiasm and interest will be swirling about Clinton and Obama, and independents and moderate Repubs will see more of them. So a continuation of the primaries does have its advantages.

Regarding Michigan and Florida - something MUST be done to allow the voters of those states a say in this process, those states are simply too, too valuable to our General Election strategy. To simply refuse to seat their delegates is suicidal; they are important swing states that are most definitely trending blue, and the National Dem party must not do anything to reverse that trend. The Florida situation is less troubling to me simply because all the candidates were on the ballot, and voters could express their preferences for Obama or Edwards despite the restrictions on campaigning. Regardless, we cannot disenfranchise these hugely important states. I prefer a closed primary, or a New Mexico (though better run!) style caucus, for the reasons many have pointed out.  


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