Rolling Onward to a 19th Century Finish

by: Matt Stoller

Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 13:27


Is anyone else struck by how this contest seems very two centuries ago?  It's organizing based, there are really no policy disagreements, the party rules and establishments are fighting with each other over identities, partisanship and participation are quite high, regional disparities are hugely significant, and the will of the public could easily be thwarted due to party machine control.  I'd love some historians to chime in, but it certainly looks to me as if we are entering a new era of courts and parties.

I've just gone over the Obama campaign's projection spreadsheet, and the campaign is seriously overperforming so far.  They grabbed a three delegate margin from the Virgin Islands, instead of a one delegate margin, they took eight from Nebraska instead of six, twenty six from Washington instead of twenty, and eleven instead of six from Louisiana.  That's a net gain of fifteen over what they had projected.  And the DC, Maryland, and Virginia primaries are going to obviously exceed projections for Obama.  In fact the leaked projections are so cautious that it leads me to think that they are not at all what the campaign genuinely thinks but an expectations management tool.

Still, it's pretty clear that Obama is systematically overperforming, and if this trend continues he should come out ahead by a couple hundred pledged delegates (even including Michigan and Florida), though not enough to seal the deal without help from the superdelegates.  Based on last night's vote, Obama has more delegates, more votes, and more states than Clinton.

The Clinton's will not give up, and lots of the caucus states have obscure rules that suggest that delegate fights could happen at state conventions all over the country, leading to the overturning of caucus results.  I remember watching Harold Ickes vote count at the DNC Convention in 2005 for a Vice Chair race; he is experienced at this stuff.  If she can, she will win the nomination outright, but if she cannot, she will use any tool legitimate or not to do so.  And frankly, I would expect nothing less of Obama.  This is how the DNC set up the process, there is just no incentive for any kind of compromise here, and there is no 'Nash equilibrium', as Steve Clemons puts it.  You can't bargain over the Presidency, the prize is just so big and it is not divisible.  And once there's a nominee, this person has zero incentive not to break any deal they cut with the other candidate; there's no tit-for-tat here since the game is played once.

I've heard a number of rumors that Hillary Clinton wants Evan Bayh as her VP, and it goes without saying that neither Hillary Clinton nor Barack Obama want the VP slot.  Moreover, I just don't see any way that a cautious party establishment would put a black man or a woman on the bottom of a ticket headlined by a black man or woman, and certainly not in the name of unity.  Party unity is not very important to anyone, really, except base Democratic voters and activists, and it's obvious that both groups will solidify against John McCain very quickly.

Anyway, given that the Republican Party establishment is essentially stealing the nomination for John McCain against the wishes of the Republican voting base, and given that there is record turnout and organization on the Democratic side, I'm not as worried that Democratic party division is a bad thing.  In fact, I think it's a very good thing, as the number of donors and activists is exploding, and nothing gets you ready for a contested election like... a contested election.

There will be bad blood for a long time over this nomination, but that's going to be relatively confined to insiders since the candidates don't actually disagree on any major policy ideas.  Remember, Democrats not on the internets and not in the political junkie class tend to like Democrats.  And the superdelegates will probably submit to public pressure to go with the person who swept their state or district, since both Obama and Clinton have substantial party machine support in their corner.

Matt Stoller :: Rolling Onward to a 19th Century Finish

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Before the flame wars start on this post (0.00 / 0)
Matt I just want to say I love you and Chris, Paul and Mike, and Tim, and Open Left and all good Democrats (including both candidates).

We won the Battle. Now the Real Fight for Change Begins. Join MoveOn.org and fight for progressive change.  

Needless to say (0.00 / 0)
I like Matt's take on this situation a lot more than Chris's.

Not me... (4.00 / 1)
Chris's position is on the honor of the party... that we will not sell our souls to steal a nomination... something we expect the GOP to do.  I'm sorry, but I don't and still don't buy the argument of The ends justify the Means for a Presidential election.  If we sell out our honor, our own morality to steal an election then we truly are no better than the GOP.  

If Clinton used every trick including the manipulation of state conventions to overthrow caucus results I won't vote for her, not even in the general.  If Obama does this (unless in defense of a Clinton maneuvering) then he will lose my support as well.  Given I have supported him from the beginning shows just how much this means.

Now I don't go as far as chris with the SDs.  A large lead in Pledged Delegates being overturned by SDs would be a big thing.  On the otherhand, a smaller lead to me is subject to the mercies of SDs as they are part of the rules... even if they shouldn't be.


[ Parent ]
Re: (0.00 / 0)
I don't think the largest difference between us and the GOP is that we play a more honorable form of politics.  I don't think that's even in the top ten.

We have a set of rules and the rules are being followed.  The decision regarding MI and FL was made pursuant to the rules; if the convention votes to reverse that decision, that's also pursuant to the rules.  Superdelegates are also part of the rules.

Both Clinton and Obama are doing their best to persuade the superdelegates.  Unless you think they're holding a gun to the superdelegates' heads or something, that's entirely fair.  If most of the superdelegates buy Clinton's arguments, that's fair; if most of them buy Obama's arguments, that's also fair.

I don't approve of people trying to intimidate the superdelegates by threatening walkouts and the creation of massive rifts in the party if the superdelegates don't vote the "right" way.  There is no rule binding the superdelegates to vote according to the majority of pledged delegates, and threatening dire consequences unless they choose to adhere to that made-up rule is counterproductive, in my opinion.  This country has bigger problems than the nominee selection process of the Democratic Party and we are not going to solve them if we threaten walkouts over issues of procedure.


[ Parent ]
No retroactive immunity for MI, FL (0.00 / 0)
"We have a set of rules and the rules are being followed.  The decision regarding MI and FL was made pursuant to the rules; if the convention votes to reverse that decision, that's also pursuant to the rules."

The party leadership told MI and FL not to move up their primaries and they did. State party leaders flouted the rules. Those same rules also allow the committee to vote to seat their delegations anyway.

If the leadership votes to give retroactive immunity from consequences, it will be just as much of an outrage and misuse of power as giving retroactive immunity to the telecoms.

MI and FL risked a consequence in their actions, and that consquence should be allowed to stand and their delegations should not be seated. Taking away the consequence will damage the Democratic Party's chances in the fall, and will create anarchy among the states in the next presidential contest.

Or here's another analogy: Our civil courts allow anyone to walk in, pay a fee and sue somebody else. That doesn't make the lawsuit legitimate or serious. MI and FL party leaders or their allies can approach the credentials committee and request any action. The fact of the request doesn't in any way give legitimacy to the requested action.


[ Parent ]
They do significantly disagree on issues (0.00 / 0)
I've been researching out their positions, economic advisers and there is no doubt by my research that Obama is to the right of Clinton on trade, budget, economics.

It will have a serious impact on any chance of turning the country around economically.  

She has better trade positions, subprime, health care, financial restructuring.  It's significant.

So you know, I'm not happy with either one so I'm not working for either camp.  I just looked it all over and there are strong differences.  Believe me it was shocking to conclude that Hillary was the Progressive one here.

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


You are correct (4.00 / 1)
but by and large, these are not the differences on which the primary is being decided.

We're not dealing with a clear choice between two competing ideologies here, where the primary process gives us an indication of which direction Democrats want to go in.


[ Parent ]
yeah, but... (0.00 / 0)
...I think he's more 'progressive' (i.e. less militaristic, more imaginitive) on foreign policy. She can influence his domestic policy from the Senate, he can't do much to guide her foreign policy from the Hill.

[ Parent ]
Re: (0.00 / 0)
This is also a very fair comment.

Frankly, I just don't think most Democratic primary voters care a whole lot about foreign policy, particularly in tough economic times like we're having.  Perhaps some of the new voters Obama is bringing into the process will alter this dynamic, but I'm not sure I can generalize about these people except to say that they're very attracted to Obama personally.


[ Parent ]
I don't entirely disagree (0.00 / 0)
even though I'm an Obama supporter.  I do think he's somewhat better on trade, but not that much better, and I think she's slightly better on healthcare.  But in my opinion, I feel like HRC is far more likely to compromise to the middle ground, i.e. she shoots for a 10 on the policy scale but would settle for a 5, while Obama shoots for an 8 but will settle for a 6 or 7, which in my mind is a better strategy because the chances of getting an effective majority around a policy agenda are much greater when you start with the 8 instead of the 10.  I think that could be seen with something like S-CHIP, where Democrats didn't get exactly what they wanted, but started at a slightly lower position and got a ton of Republicans on board from the very beginning.  Obviously the effort on the whole was unsuccessful, but given a better Congress and a new President, I would expect a similar (and more intensified) version of this effect on a policy agenda.

[ Parent ]
Obama on trade (0.00 / 0)
I'm going to cross post a piece I wrote last night comparing the two because I think people just are not looking at the cart's behind these two horses and what's in them in this race.  Obama is to the right of Clinton on trade and it's not good.  Obama is to the right of Clinton on doing something about the mortgage subprime.

There's only one thing I'm not sure of and that is if Clinton want's to have that bankruptcy law trashed.  (they both voted for it).  

It's originally here.

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


[ Parent ]
Big diff... (4.00 / 1)
After reading the post you link to I'm left feeling the same way I do over the majority of issues... Clinton and Obama are so close as to be indistinguishable.  You highlight a promise made by Clinton that she'll review every existing agreement.  Hmmm, do we have any reason to believe an Obama administration would NOT review every agreement and look to strengthen enforcement of labor/environmental provisions?  There are just not enough policy differences between the Dem candidates to strongly favor one over the other as the Dem choice to run against McCain.  It's the differences between the progressive D and regressive R that are more important, which brings us to who will do a better job getting Americans to support the progressive agenda.

When the nominating contest is over, supposing Obama wins, what will your take be on the "differences" in trade policy between Clinton and Obama?  To me it's pretty obvious we'll have a coalescing of policy ideas to take us into the GE, including the best of each of the policy ideas the Dem candidates ran on.  With Obama running in the GE, the Dem stance on trade policy will be the progressive choice, which is what all of us should be focused on.


[ Parent ]
Can't separate means and ends (0.00 / 0)
They differ mostly on campaigning and governing style.  Clinton is about settling scores and going for the kill, Obama is more conciliatory.  It is a personality difference as much as a generational difference, and more critical than policy differences.

Remember that FDR campaigned on balancing the budget.  It is like war in that once you become President the plans go out the window and character comes to the fore . . or not, as in the case of GWBush.

The President sets the agenda and the tone.  How well s/he workd with Congress, and the make-up and leadership of the Congress, have a great deal to do with what and how much gets done.  

Neither of them would get their policies enacted in campaign form.  It just doesn't happen that way, at least not with Democrats.  The policy issues are not that great, but the style, character and judgment issues are pretty significant.

Clinton is more cautious, but at the same time more rigid and less conciliatory.  So maybe she wins, but on small things.  She can't build the coalition for big things, even if she wanted to.  Plus, she will be bogged down in Iraq and who knows where else.

Obama is more visionary and more conciliatory, so there is a chance he wins on some pretty big changes, with a bigger coalition behind him.  A chance for real change.

His JJ Dinner speech last night was the most populist and "lunch bucket"  I've heard him.  If he wins OH, he should get the nomination.  If not, maybe not, unless it is razor thin.

The superdelegates should hold their fire until more people have a chance to vote.  Nothing needs to be decided now.  March is plenty of time.


John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
That's funny (0.00 / 0)
I feel like we reached the same exact conclusion with the exact opposite perspective.

[ Parent ]
You know what they say about great minds! (0.00 / 0)
Actually, I think Clinton would shoot for a 7 and get a 6, but Obama would shoot for a 9 and get an 8, because he would have better working relationships.

Really, it makes more difference whether Mitch McConnell is replaced by someone like Grassley in some ways.  With Grassley a Pres Obama could probably get quite a lot enacted.  Perhaps if the GOP loses enough Senate seats that will happen as a repudiation of the obstructionist strategy.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
I'm not sure (4.00 / 1)
Grassley would get the nod if McConnell lost, since he's up for re-election in 2010 and will be 77.  That said, if he does run, it would be with a lot of other Republicans who are either moderate or from swing states (Arlen Specter, George Voinovich, John Thune, Kit Bond, Mel Martinez, Jim Bunning, Judd Gregg, David Vitter).

If we can pick up a few more seats this year and be only a few votes away from breaking a filibuster (assuming a popular President Obama), a lot of those Senators would be inclined to vote with us if were running for re-election (helps our agenda), not vote for us and run for re-election (looking bad against a popular agenda) or vote either way and retire (giving us an open seat). I feel far more optimistic about legislative strategy under Obama than I do under HRC.


[ Parent ]
Breaking a fillibuster with Majority Leader Kit Bond... (0.00 / 0)
'accidentially' leave a bottle of Grey Goose in the Senate cloak room

[ Parent ]
Is that (0.00 / 0)
really true? I had never heard anything to that extent, at least as compared to the Lindsey Grahams of the world, for the proclivities that seem to be common among senatorial Republicans, Larry Craig style.

[ Parent ]
Coattails (4.00 / 1)
I like Hillary's platform and policy proposals -- but as a candidate that is saturated with Clintonian triangulation and is an advocate for Clintonism, her negatives preclude success as a transformational leader.

While Hillary's ability to energize women of all ages, it is Obama's inspirational rhetoric that is mobilizing a new generation of Democrats, with the possibility of a new governing coalition.

Short answer -- Obama's coattails could deliver 60 or more Senators; Hillary's coattails might only reach to 55. Obama is transformational; Hillary is transactional.

The Bottom Line -- it doesn't matter what they say, if there aren't enough Democrats to pass the reform legislation.


[ Parent ]
Doesn't the data say that the coattail effect (0.00 / 0)
gets weaker and weaker every year?  

[ Parent ]
transformational to what? (0.00 / 0)
More corporate sponsored legislation?  Sorry but it's the policy and legislation that's destroying America...

Getting someone in who simply has a "D" by their name just isn't cutting it for me here.

Unfortunately on economics, Obama's heading right....right back to that UofC/Harvard corporate economics crowd vs. U. of Maryland, EPI where he should be going.

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


[ Parent ]
Obama endorsed by Ohio's biggest newspaper (4.00 / 2)
Cleveland Plain Dealer endorses Obama.  They say:
Given these similarities, Ohio Democrats have to ask themselves which candidate is more likely, first, to win the White House, and, then, to persuade a closely divided country to embrace his or her vision of change. Put even more pointedly: Who is more likely to change the world of a child born in 2008?

The answer, we think, is Barack Obama.

Although Obama stands on the precipice of a historic breakthrough, his personal story is a classic only-in-America saga: (we know)

That speech laid out the template for this campaign. He has challenged America to move beyond rigid racial, religious or partisan divides to focus instead on shared, national goals. It's a message that appeals to young voters and independents, to disillusioned Democrats eager to regain a sense of possibility and, yes, hope.

Obama's frequent talk of hope strikes some people as naive. It leads others to question his toughness. But Obama understands something his critics do not: Change requires vision and optimism, shared sacrifice and mutual trust. Hope can sustain those elements; a presidency defined by political tactics cannot.

Obama for a fresh start.  They didn't make the same mistake as the CA papers, who waited until the last weekend to endorse.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
disagree (0.00 / 0)
and if you want to look at it that way, how about Hillary wants to go clean up Bill's mess along with the economic advisers who made the mess and realize the mistakes they did.

she has a lifetime career of cleaning up Bill's messes, why not the mistakes of his administration too?  (;))

I disagree with what Bush ran on, he said clearly what he was going to do and did it, the problem was no one believed him..
they said "nah, he doesn't mean that once he gets into office"
well, they do mean it.

That's the problem, people need to use their logical brain much, much more when voting and it's a well known technical to get to people's primitive brain, their emotional brain
to get them to vote and not even realize what they are voting for!

(and yes the campaigns have hired people who specialize in this!  The same people who will sell you a Hummer because your primitive brain wants to be aggressive and dominant...the ultimate psychological sales people).  

FDR is a special case because Keyesian economics was brand new....there was no test case that a socialist mix would work to affect a depression but he went and plain tried it..
again, because of his economic advisers.

Now, look at the rack of economic advisers between these two...

Well, Obama has the Chicago economics school which is very to the right and that is not good at all.  These policies have been proven to hollow out the US middle class and it's inane to enable them further.

Look at Obama on the Subprime and mortgage crisis and his list of economic advisers...

this seriously folks, if you're calling yourself a Progressive and that's why you're here, these are just not Progressive people he's pulling into that team.

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


[ Parent ]
There are a lot of unknowns in play (4.00 / 1)
One that is often left out was discussed in the New York Times yesterday

That is the Catholic Vote.
It is the largest single demographic with the best record of choosing the eventual president, as well as the demographic that has just as easily switched the party it supported in the general election:

Catholic Vote Is Harbinger of Success for Clinton

Hillary Rodham Clinton has run away with the votes of Roman Catholic Democrats in nearly all the primaries, often beating Barack Obama by two to one or better, exit polls show. In New York, she received 66 percent of the Catholic vote to his 30 percent.

I didn't go to bed until 1 in the morning waiting on the results," said Joe Quinn, a Catholic who is a building superintendent on the Upper West Side. "I slept very well, let me tell you."

Does it matter whom Catholics like Mr. Quinn voted for in the Democratic primaries? By November, it may not. Still, Catholics, who make up about a quarter of the registered voters in the country, have backed the winner of the national popular vote for at least the last nine presidential elections, going back to 1972.

The Catholic scorecard: five Republican and three Democratic presidents, and one popular-vote-winning but presidency-losing Democrat, Al Gore

No other large group has switched sides so often, or been so consistently aligned with the winners. Over that same period, a majority of white Protestants typically voted Republican, while blacks of all faiths and Jews strongly backed Democrats.

"Catholics are the last swing voters left in the country," said Brian O'Dwyer, a Manhattan lawyer and a Clinton supporter...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02...

I am very interested in seeing how Maryland turns out, because even though the polls show Obama winning that state, and likely will still win it, due to the heavy black vote in Baltimore, Maryland still remains a very Catholic state. The Catholic vote tends to be largely blue collar, and also more representative of the lower middle class as well as the middle of the middle classes.

This unlooked at demographic was largely responsible for the Clinton upset in New Hampshire where the Catholic vote mirrored the New York vote mentioned in the article above.

Clinton took two Catholic Votes to every Catholic Vote that Obama took and the Catholic vote made up a larger percentage of the Democratic vote (against the independent voters) than any other group.

My suspicions are that Obama will win Maryland, but the win will be a bit smaller than the current polls are suggesting.

Rhode Island has the largest Catholic population by percentage, at 63 percent.

Florida, where Clinton won has 26 percent. Maryland has 23 percent, but Maryland falls into the list as a Catholic Dominated State. Massachussetts, another Clinton upset of Obama, has the second largest Catholic percentages at 47 percent, New York Clintons home state, has 38 percent.

One would be surprised to see it, but both Louisiana as well as Obamas home state of Illinois do not fall into Catholic majority states. Louisiana is Baptist majority, Ilinois, even though it has the largest archdiocese in the nation is rankes as a Lutheran dominant state. Kansas a state that has a Catholicism as its largest denomination went to Obama. But the percentage of the population of that state that is Catholic is well below the national average of 26 percent.  Kansas is 20 percent Catholic. Washington also has Catholics as its largest single sect, but it too is well below the national average at 22 percent. The interesting factor is that in these states with large Catholic populations, Catholics are the least inclined or able to take part in the caucuses, because they are primarily lower middle class, to middle middle class and also make up a considerable proportion of the blue collar population of those states.

Texas has a larger than the national average percentage of Catholics, coming in at 29 percent. It is rated as a Catholic State, where its neighbor Louisiana is not.

Clintons wins in primaries have occured in states that ran primaries and had considerably larger Catholic population than the national average.

New York, California, Nevada at a bit below the national average at 24 percent.

If you follow the trends by this religious breakdown, you end up noting Clinton wins states that hold primaries and have a population near or above the national average of Catholics.

In fact, the larger the Catholic population, the larger her wins in those states seems to be a general pattern that is emerging.

I would like to see how it holds up in Texas, Ohio, Wisconsin, Rhode Island, and then how it holds up when comparing caucus states to primary states.

I think it will be amusing.

What will not be amusing is the tendency of Catholic voters to swing over to the Republican party depending on who the Democratic candidate is.

One of the major factors that resulted in Republican losses of seats in 2006 was centered around this Catholic vote, and oddly enough, around the Latino Catholic vote.

Until the Republicans started on their anti-immigrant rampage, the Republican Religious Right picked up enough Catholic Votes to win the national and mid term elections.

In 2006, the Republicans lost 75 percent of the Catholics who voted for them in 2000 and 2004. The Religious right managed to capture a significant portion of the Catholic vote in those years and they were an important part of their coalition. What they failed to realize is how large a percentage of that Catholic population was Latino.

The Latino Catholic vote, which may as well be the entire Latino vote, is socially conservative, but fiscally liberal. They oppose gay marriage, they oppose abortion rights by large measure. The tend to support Clinton for some reason and oppose Obama.

Try as he may to reach the Latino vote, where Obama falls down is on the Catholic aspect of that vote, not the ethnic make up.


[ Parent ]
New York is a major case in point here (0.00 / 0)
New York City a large Catholic City has voted for many if not most Republican mayors.

The most interesting switch here started in the 1970's when many Irish Catholic politicians switched party in the New York Metropolitan area. Those who moved up to Westchester became Republican candidates. Oddly the largest city in Westchester, has two registered Democrats to every registered Republican, and Republicans keep winning mayoral races.

The children of the Democratic Party's Irish base in New York City have become some of the city's best known Republican judges and legislators. I had a girlfriend in New York whose grandfather was one of the major powers in the New York City Democratic Party, and whose son went on to herald the move of Irish political candidates onto the Republican side of the ticket. Most were what have become known as "Rockerfeller Republicans" Fiscally conservative, socially laissez faire.

Explains a lot about Rudy's fall from grace.


[ Parent ]
I'm sorry (0.00 / 0)
but can you clarify your statement on Republican mayors of New York City? Rudy was the only mayor of New York who can be evenly remotely associated with the Republican Party as it exists today.  Bloomberg left the party, and Lindsay and LaGuardia are probably considered liberal now by even Democratic standards.

[ Parent ]
Yeah (0.00 / 0)
The split in the pre-FDR party system was more about progressives/non-progressives than it was about Republican/Democrat

[ Parent ]
Non-Latino Catholics (4.00 / 1)
I've seen the exit polling on Catholics- they do seem to break Hillary, by relatively large margins. But we should be careful to distinguish cause and correlation here. Is Hillary winning Catholics simply because she's winning Latinos?

I don't see stats particularly on non-Latino Catholics, but one test of this might be to see how she's running with Catholics generally v how she's running with Latinos. In CA, for instance, 33% of the primary voters in the exit poll identified as Catholics; they broke somewhere between 64% and 70% for Clinton. Clinton's number among Latinos (30% of primary voters) was a very impressive 67%. What these numbers suggest to me, though, is that, in CA anyway (it'd be interesting to look at states with bigger non-latino Catholic populations, as well), it's the fact that these people are Latino, not that they're Catholic, which is doing the explaining here.  


[ Parent ]
Your research is pretty wrong (0.00 / 1)
Clinton is farther to the right on trade.  You should probably redo the research as it is factually incorrect, regardless of what Steve M seems to think.

[ Parent ]
uh (0.00 / 0)
Those are direct quotes from the candidates, you cannot be wrong cutting and pasting direct quotes.

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


[ Parent ]
lawyers (0.00 / 0)

This is how the DNC set up the process, there is just no incentive for any kind of compromise here, and there is no 'Nash equilibrium', as Steve Clemons puts it.  You can't bargain over the Presidency, the prize is just so big and it is not divisible.  And once there's a nominee, this person has zero incentive not to break any deal they cut with the other candidate; there's no tit-for-tat here since the game is played once.

It sounds kind of like the American legal system, does it?

Oh yeah... The system was set up by lawyers.

The truth about Saxby Chambliss


I meant (0.00 / 0)
"doesn't it"

The truth about Saxby Chambliss

[ Parent ]
Evan Bayh (4.00 / 6)
The Clinton's will not give up,

ahem... Harvard, huh?

I've seen those rumors about a Clinton/Bayh ticket, and if it's true, that's enough to knock me from a 60/40 Obama/Clinton voter to 80/20. Even if I weren't a DFH bloogosphere-type, this is disastrous. Bayh can't deliver Indiana and is particularly useless against the McCain/Russert ticket. It just smacks of the kind of fighting-the-last-war triangulation that led the Clintons (ahem) to put Joe Lieberman back in the Senate. And look how that turned out.


terrible choice (0.00 / 0)
I agree, she's out of her mind.  So many have mentioned Bayh and I have no idea why, he's milk toast way to the right, meek, brings nothing and sends what message?  

If she wants to kick some butt economically she should pick someone like Dorgan now that choice would be a message.

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


[ Parent ]
Matt, is Clinton done if (0.00 / 0)
 she looses one of Texas, Ohio, or Penn?

This post is dead-on.


Odds are very small for her losing (0.00 / 0)
any of them.

The hidden Demographic in those states is the Catholic voter, which goes for Clinton two to one against Obama.

The New York Times pointed this out yesterday.

That Clinton has basically beaten Obama in every large state that has a majority Catholic population. Two to one, in fact. Its her best and most loyal demographic.

On the other hand, they also tend to be the most likely to swing over to vote for a Republican if the Democrat of their choice is not the nominee.

The only upsets in the entire Democratic nomination process so far New Hampshire and Nevada, were two places where the Catholic vote is what confounded the polls prior to the elections. Clinton has pretty much solidly won Southwestern States and California when primaries were held, and Catholic voters voted. Obama has only won caucus states where there were fair sized Catholic populations, but the Catholics did not attend the caucuses, because they are neither party leaders, or the upper classes who make up the bulk of the voters in caucuses.

The recent turn of many midwestern states in which Catholics make up the largest single religious group has basically occured in caucus states, where the Democratic nominee is the one favored by the upper classes and the local political machinery. I could almost say with 100 percent certainty that a poll of Catholic voters in Kansas or even Washington state would not show Obama getting more than a third of that vote.

You can read the article at


[ Parent ]
I'm going to suggest (4.00 / 1)
That in this case, "Catholic" is largely a surrogate for other things - working class white Democrats and Latinos, primarily.

The question is whether Obama can improve in those demographics or not, especially if he has some momentum going into 3/4.  We'll see.  (Also, I'm going to guess that Obama does considerably worse among Latino Catholics than among White Catholics.)


[ Parent ]
Its a long time... (0.00 / 0)
Most people said Obama couldn't win Iowa originally...

I think Ohio is his best option, followed by Texas.  


[ Parent ]
Evan Bayh WOULD be a bad thing (4.00 / 2)
 What, Tom Daschle declined?

Evan Bayh absolutely oozes DLC cowardice and capitulation.

He'd be the worst possible VP pick.

Thanks for giving me extra incentive to support Obama.

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn


Well (4.00 / 3)
it'll be him, Ted Strickland or Wes Clark.  Clark would obviously be the best of the three (from a progressive point of view), as Bayh and Strickland are there to fill the Midwestern White Moderate Who Might Carry Their Home State (Strickland especially) role. Even so, I feel like Clark has held a lot of Clinton water so far this campaign, and I had hoped he'd endorse Obama.

[ Parent ]
Live with (0.00 / 0)
I like Clark and can live with Strickland.  I despise Evan Bayh and despise him nearly as much as Lieberman.  I will not vote for that ticket and will either vote green or write in a vote.  I can live with one candidate I don't care for.  Not two.

[ Parent ]
Daschle is supporting Obama (4.00 / 1)
But a more likely VP for Obama is Jim Webb or how about Jon Corzine if economic issues are going to be so important?  Obama wouldn't take Hillary, but he might take a Hillary supporter as a conciliatory gesture.

Bayh is the perfect Stepford VP for Hillary.  Every hair in place, totally bland, won't upstage her.  Think about that, Hillary supporters.  It shows where we go with her.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
Corzine endorsed Hillary (0.00 / 0)
not to mention the fact that he's really bogged down in Jersey politics right now, with a sub-50 approval rating with tires spinning pretty hard on a plan to raise tolls, with other controversies to boot.  

I would love Jim Webb, but I don't think it would be offered to him, nor would it be accepted.  Maybe my view of the matter is too traditional, in terms of the role of the VP (can take marching orders, fall in line, stay on message, don't upstage the nominee), but he's very much his own man (for better and worse), and is not the type to be a #2 (resigned as Secretary of the Navy after only 16 months after he was in a dispute with Reagan).

I almost wish Obama would pluck a young, progressive congressman (or congresswoman) from the backbench who shares his vision for a new and changed America, representing the future (especially against McCain) - someone like Tim Ryan would be great, if he wasn't pro-life. I think he needs a reinforcement strategy, not a balance strategy.


[ Parent ]
I think (4.00 / 2)
Clark is the best choice for either one, given that the MSM is going struggle mightily to make this a 'national security' election for McCain's benefit (maybe not consciously, but they just can't help themselves).
Alternatively, don't laugh or throw rocks and garbage: Biden.
The Village greenrooms love him, and when he can reign in his logorrhea, he's very knowledgeable on foreign policy, speaking in terms the Establishment likes to hear. Not as progressive as I'd like on foreign or domestic policy, but better than Bayh for sure.

[ Parent ]
That may be possible (4.00 / 1)
but to me, that further solidifies the need not to have just some old guy who was in the military or serves for 2139 years on the Foreign Relations committee on the ticket (at least for Obama). If he had a young, strongly anti-war running mate, it would just provide further evidence for his difference in vision for the future, instead of reaching back.  Clark wasn't a terrific candidate back in 2004 and had a couple gaffes of his own on foreign policy, so I don't feel as strongly about him as others do (though I was for Dean, so I might be biased Haha).

[ Parent ]
Yeah (0.00 / 0)
I don't think the usual young-old balanced ticket works for Obama's message of change and transformation. A big part of his appeal is that he would be a fresh face and a 21st century president. A young running mate would only enhance that image while an older or overly familiar running mate would undercut it.

[ Parent ]
VP (0.00 / 0)
Obama's best options are Webb and Richardson...  

[ Parent ]
Biden is... (0.00 / 0)
too loose in the lips. Part of the Republicans success has been message discipline, and I could see Biden rolemodeling sideways talk to the media The last thing we need is a Democratic administration being undermined from within as it gets the inevitable barrage from without.

[ Parent ]
Jim Webb for Obama's VP (4.00 / 2)
Jim Webb delivers Virginia, and he has the classic toughness Obama needs in a VP.

Plus, his military resume gives the deep red military voters an opportunity to break from the GOP -- which leaves the fundies and the Wall Streeters as the rump fragments of the wing nut coalition.

If Hillary is the nominee, Obama is the only logical choice -- without him on the ticket, he will be an insurgent in the Senate, ready to challenge her in 2012.

In 1932, FDR chose John Nance Garnder as VP, specifically to remove him as an obstructionist Speaker of the House. FDR also appointed Joe Kennedy Ambassador to Great Britain to neutralize him as a presidential rival.


[ Parent ]
She'd challenge him in 2012 as well (0.00 / 0)
Don't underestimate the anger of women if Obama is the nominee. If he's less thsan strong or loses to McCain, she'd run again in a heartbeat.

[ Parent ]
If Obama wins the nomination (0.00 / 0)
If Obama gets the nomination and loses to McCain, you had better believe that women like me will be furious. And if he wins the presidency, and his message of "hope" doesn't turn into some real action to clean up the Republican mess, or if his policies turn out to be as moderate as I fear they will be (judging from his programs and his votes), I think many people will demand that Hillary run in four years.

I'm willing to work for Obama if he gets the nomination, but I think he has a lot to prove. He has sneered at being a 'CEO" but that's a lot of what a good president does. Bill and Hillary did it, I'm convinced, as a team. Maybe Michelle Obama can handle the nuts and bolts of an Obama administration, while he does the inspiration. If so, maybe that's OK, as long as the policies are progressive. Maybe the job is too big for one person, anyway. It has certainly been way too big for George!

I do think a Clinton / Obama ticket would be great. He needs to be in a position where he can learn some governing skills. And I think all the Obama people would pretty much have to give up their "I'll vote for McCain if Hillary is the nominee" meme.

Sharon Toji
Irvine California


[ Parent ]
Bayh (0.00 / 0)
The only saving grace of him being the Vice-Presidential nominee is that in four or eight years a grassroots candidate should be able to beat him for the presidential nomination.

But the problems of him as Vice-President - political cowardice, triangulation, undermining the brand, giving cover to Democrats who vote badly, being one horrible accident away from power - are huge.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
Outperforming the spreadsheet (4.00 / 5)
It seems that the spreadsheet is underpredicting the spreads, as you say, but I would argue that it also potentially underpredicts Clinton's spreads.  As an Obama supporter, I would like to think that Ohio, Pennsylvania and Texas will have Obama within single digits, but previous polling and demographics don't really support it at this point.  

I don't think we will really know anything until March 4th, and at that point we can start having conversations about giving up and a superdelegate crisis if one of the sides is showing a clear spread.  To begin to discuss it today, when the Obama campaign is just begining to show a spread is unfair to the Clinton campaign.  

Right now, if you are an Obama supporter, you should not be worrying about the superdelegates, you should be worrying about Ohio, Texas and Pennsylvania.  Make the pledged delegates so convincing that the 'machine' can't take it away.


Spreadsheet (4.00 / 1)
I wrote this someplace else...

"Let us say that the released document was done on purpose, which...who knows.  It was a brilliant, but really risky move, at least based on this site's coverage of the results here.  You are referencing their campaign's document and saying they are doing at least that well, if not better.  We can look at these results and compare to the spreadsheet.  When he is hitting or surpassing all the results, it says something about his campaign.  It also says something about where the delegate counts will be down the road.  In fact, if I were a Clinton supporter, I think I would begin to be worried if it keeps following this "script".  I think it is also focusing the coverage on his side of the campaign more."

Just to expand on that a little bit.  That was a hugely risky expectations setting move.  I mean, if this is actually his conservative predictions, he could easily under-perform them and then get slammed for it.  If he keeps outperforming them, I would see his delegate calculation team as kind of scary good.  I don't know, but his campaign team just keeps impressing me.  I mean, they seem to be playing a long and very thorough game.  The one way in which they might have disappointed me is, and I am not sure how true this is based on only one data point, but if they are not handling the super delegates well.


[ Parent ]
Very true (0.00 / 0)
But Obama looks to BE the leader in pledged delegates - but as you say, better to work hard now, so as to eliminate all doubt.

[ Parent ]
Hmm.... (4.00 / 2)
I don't know.  It seems to me that with two weeks of intense campaigning in just Ohio and Texas (basically - I suppose Obama might take a trip to Vermont and Rhode Island), Obama is going to significantly rise in the polls.  We saw him rise in California and elsewhere with much less time, and with him actually focusing his attention much more on the smaller states.

I'd like to see some polls out of Ohio and Texas, but it seems to me that the main thing favoring Clinton there is going to be inertia and lack of time, which may not be enough.

This holds even more true of Pennsylvania, where there will be a 42 day campaign.  Yes, extrapolating from 2/5 results, Obama probably loses all three.  But the results in three weeks, and in two months, could be virtually unrecognizable.

The first real test is going to be Wisconsin.  If Clinton wins there, that's a very bad sign for Obama going forward.  If Obama wins big, I think he should have the nomination well in hand.

Wisconsin!  It's a very storied primary - up through 1976, probably as important as New Hampshire.  Some highlights -

1912 - In the first major primary contest, Governor Woodrow Wilson of New Jersey defeats Speaker of the House Champ Clark of Missouri here, helping him on his way to the Democratic nomination.  The same year, favorite son Robert LaFollette wins the Republican primary

1944 - Wendell Willkie, the Republican nominee in 1940, trying to repeat his performance, but fails miserably in Wisconsin, coming in third to Thomas Dewey and Douglas MacArthur, basically finishing his candidacy.

1956 - In one of his many victories of the primary season, Estes Kefauver defeats Adlai Stevenson.  It is not enough to secure him the nomination.

1960 - John F. Kennedy defeats Hubert Humphrey in one of their two face to face primary competitions this year.  The key to Kennedy entering the convention as the favorite.

1964 - George Wallace does surprisingly well here against a favorite son stalking horse for LBJ, in his first demonstration that he could do well among working class whites outside the south.

1968 - Following his narrow write-in victory over Eugene McCarthy in New Hampshire, President Lyndon Johnson withdraws from the presidential rate on facing certain humiliation in Wisconsin.  McCarthy goes on to win the state easily.

1972 - George McGovern powers over Hubert Humphrey, George Wallace, and Ed Muskie in the primary here, ending Muskie's campaign and casting grave doubt on Humphrey's ability to stop him.

1976 - Jimmy Carter pulls out a surprise victory over Mo Udall, cementing his standing as the Democratic frontrunner.

Anyway, exciting to see a real Wisconsin primary.  That's a lot of history there, and it's too bad that that tradition has basically died in the last 30 years.

I don't really think, though, that this can be compared to the nineteenth century.  It looks a lot more like 1984, except with Obama combining the demographic strengths of Hart and Jackson, and being a better candidate and running a much better campaign than either.  (Clinton, to her credit, is probably a better candidate than Mondale, but her areas of strength are quite similar to his - with the organized party leadership, unions, and the like)  That was the last time it came down to the superdelegates.  They could've broken overwhelmingly for Hart and given him the nomination, but Mondale was only a few pledged delegates short of the nomination, and managed to secure the support of enough superdelegates the day after the California and New Jersey primaries to win the nomination.


[ Parent ]
To be honest (0.00 / 0)
I've heard the Bayh rumors too, but I've never understood the case for why it would be a good choice.

Is the idea that Hillary will somehow defuse the GE charges that she's a commie pinko by naming a centrist DLC type as her VP?  I rather doubt that.  I mean, if you think John McCain is scary because he wants to bomb Iran and stay in Iraq for 100 years, would you suddenly become tempted to vote for him if he names a moderate VP like Lincoln Chafee?

Indiana is very unlikely to turn blue and it is not an electoral prize anyway.  Bayh clearly brings no headline-grabbing excitement with him.  So why would she do it?


Rolling Onward to a 20th Century Finish (0.00 / 0)
The 1960 nominating process was also like this -- that was probably the last time there wasn't a sense of front runner inevitability.

In 1932, Al Smith went into the convention thinking he would be the nominee; FDR and Harold Ickes outflanked him, and won the nomination.

In fact, 1960 and 1968 are the only times I can remember where there was extended drama in the primary/caucus nominating process. 1984, 1988, and 1992 were not decided in the first round, but the front runners emerged sooner than today.


And not enough smoke and liquor (0.00 / 0)
for it to really be 19th Century.  Too cool and technological.  

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
1968, 1972, 1976, and 1984 (0.00 / 0)
1972 and 1976 were pretty unpredictable years.  Both times, (very different) insurgents emerged as early frontrunners, and the party establishment proved incapable (or, in 1976, more like "unwilling") to stop them.

[ Parent ]
Prognostin' (4.00 / 1)
Obama ends the primaries with momentum and strength but not enough for a lock.  With the pressure of party pragmatists, Hillary and DLC-types make deals, if not for VP then other key cabinet posts.  Obama agrees.  Apparatchiks all keep their jobs. "Unity" and "victory" achieved.    Progressive activists generally disappointed, voicing complaints of 'sell-out'. Uninsured population reduced to 5-10% by end of first term. Obama re-elected in '12.  Presidency coincides with increased participation of historical minorites in many venues.  Greatly improves reputation of US abroad. Cheney crypto-constitutional executive powers reversed.  Structural excesses of the Bush era ameliorated, though Estate Tax is never fully restored.  High-level Bush figures remain ensconced for decades as media pundits and corporate lobbyists.  No high-level Bush figures prosecuted for war crimes or denials of civil rights during the first years of the 21st Century.  Things muddle along. A hundred years from now Obama better known than Kennedy.  College history majors find it nearly impossible to distiguish policy objectives between Obama and Bill Clinton adminstrations.

The everyday people of the whole earth are ready to run the sphere in peace.

Or...insurgent Hillary runs in 2012 against Carter-like Obama (0.00 / 0)
Just as likely.

[ Parent ]
Barring some strong shift, is it the case that Obama's already won the pledged delegate fight? (4.00 / 1)
Now, don't count chickens before they hatch, Clinton could come back, Obama could gaffe, but...

If you take Obama's current pledged delegate lead, of 60 to 80. (all numbers are taken from  this Wikipedia article), let's simply look at the BIG states.

You consider that the most that Clinton has won the delegate count in big states by (not including New York, as I won't include Illinois for Obama) is around 55% to 45%.

There is nothing that suggests (correct me if I'm wrong) that Clinton will win the other big states, by a larger margin.

Ohio, Texas, and Penn - that is a total of 492 delegates.

I think it is a safe assumption that the optimal performance for Clinton, is that she will win 55% of those delegates.

That would be around 271 for her, and 221 for Obama.

So, that STILL - at this point, without counting ANY OTHER STATE - puts her at around a 10 to 30 delegate disadvantage at this point.

Not counting the rest of the states this month - Maine, Virginia, Hawaii, Maryland, D.C., Wisconsin.

And of course, not counting any of the OTHER states in March, April, or beyond.

You would have to say that Obama will pick up some other delegates, in the rest of the states.  And it is possible that, like yesterday, he could pick up a lot.

At this point, isn't it right to say, that unless Clinton stages a comeback, and votes shift significantly her way, that Obama is MUCH more likely to win the pledged delegate race?

This analysis doesn't take into account Florida and Michigan - if those delegates were seated, what is the plus Clinton advantage?  (I would assume all other delegates would go to Obama).

At this point, it is more likely that Obama will win the pledged delegate race.  If he can get above the number that FL and MI would give Clinton, going back to what Chris said the other day, I don't see how superdelegates - knowing that Obama is ahead in pledged delegates, even INCLUDING Florida and Michigan, can shift the election to Clinton.  It would far too much of a snub of ACTUAL voters.

At this point,I think you have to hope either that:

a. Obama pulls out and becomes far ahead in a delegate lead.
b. Obama stumbles in some manner, thus shifting the contest back to Clinton (I throw this in there for Clinton supporters!)

Thoughts?



Evan Bayh (4.00 / 1)
Matt, Chris-

I'm actually kind of surprised that you guys haven't been more overtly pushing for Obama, given the kind of people that Hillary has surrounded herself with in this campaign.
Terry McAuliffe, Howard Wolfson, Mark Penn, and now the possibility of Evan Bayh as VP?   Oy, oy...

It doesn't get any more centrist/DLC than that.  These people are the enemy of all things progressive.  Hillary has given us all the evidence we need about what kind of President she would be.  Ye are known by the company ye keep....


I'll continue with more thoughts (0.00 / 0)
In this case, regarding conservative estimates of what Barack will win.

Feb 12th primary -

I think you can conservatively estimate across all 4 states, that Obama will get at LEAST - 55% to 45%.

With 168 at play:

93 Obama
75 Clinton

a gain of 18 for Obama.

Feb 19 -

Hawaii CAUCUS in Obama's home state, versus a primary in Wisconsin.  

A 55% to 45% split in WI for Hilary (I think the best that she can manage) would only be 38 to 33, a lead of 5 delegates for Hilary.

Hawaii alone, as a CAUCUS in Obama's home state, will beat that spread.  At least 13-8 in Hawaii for Obama.

NOTE:  It is very possible that Obama does better in Wisconsin, but I'm staying conservative.

March -

Rhode Island, Vermont, and Wyoming - I don't know much about.  Wyoming is a caucus, so say Obama breaks even there.

Mississipi - will go for Obama, by a 60-40 spread. Another 6 gain.

So that is, at a MINIMUM, through March (and including Pennsylvania) -

extra 23 for Obama - plus the 10 to 30 he is ahead after the hits of Penn, Ohio, Texas -

33 to 53 pledged delegates ahead, CONSERVATIVELY, going into April (and already including Penn).



Two words: (0.00 / 0)
"Al Gore". I know, I know, it's one part wishful thinking and two parts way too obvious, but it just might be the only answer that keeps the party from self-destructing.

In mid-May Dean gets the two camps together and says, "Look, I've spoken to Al, and for the good of the party and the country he's willing to be drafted in Denver. He wants Barack on the ticket as VP; Hillary will get the first Supreme Court opening. We've already got enough Super Delegates lined-up and excited about this to keep any nominee from being selected on the first ballot, and after that Gore will win by proclamation. It's a done deal, let's get to work".

The other thing about this is, a Gore/Obama ticket doesn't just win in November vs McCain and whatever youthful wingnut he needs to stick on the ticket to appease the lunatic Republican base. Gore/Obama wins in a landslide. Probably the biggest electoral win by a non-incumbent since 1932.

Yeah, the Democrats would lock down Ohio and Florida, but moreover Colorado, New Mexico,  Nevada and Virginia would turn blue and the Repubs would be in full retreat, trying to hang on to states like Tennessee and North Carolina.  

After that kind of a massive defeat the Right wing would be in open revolt against the "moderate" McCain wing. Both Houses of Congress would be in Democratic control. The United States would be withdrawing from Iraq, global warming,  energy independence,  and health care legislation would be moving through congress, and within a year Hillary Clinton would be sitting on the Supreme Court.

In other words, the Republican Party would be living out their worst freakin' nightmare, and would be in for a long spell of self-reflection in not outright extinction.



Leaving that aside... (4.00 / 2)
I think Al Gore, Jimmy Carter and few other elder statesment (George McGovern, Gary Hart, Mondale, Dukakis, George Mitchell, Pat Schroeder....) need to confer with Howard Dean about bringing this all to a smooth landing, whatever happens. This is one of the reasons I hope Gore doesn't endorse. We may need him to broker the peace, if not the Convention.

[ Parent ]
I agree, Blue... (0.00 / 0)
Gore has worked very hard to attain the status he now holds, and he would squander it with a too-early public endorsement.

And it just might require the kind of gravitas held collectively by the group you mention to keep this thing from coming off the rails.    


[ Parent ]
Some of those guys have endorsed (0.00 / 0)
I know Mondale, McGovern, and Mitchell have all endorsed Clinton, and I think Hart has endorsed Obama.

[ Parent ]
At this point... (0.00 / 0)
That'd be unbelievably outrageous.  Can you really see something as anti-democratic as this flying with anybody?

[ Parent ]





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