Response to Paul's Opening Question (0.00 / 0)

Paul, first of all, thank you very much for hosting this discussion of God's Profits.

John McCain's relationship with Hagee did not come out of nowhere. Hagee's blessing was sought by George W. Bush when he was running in 2000, and again in 2004, although in a much more discreet way. McCain's overt embrace of Hagee was partly because he's desperate, in a way Bush wasn't, to get religious right leadership figures on his side. And since 2004, Hagee has become much  more of a nationally recognized figure because of the 2006 launch of Christians United for Israel, which is the lobbying arm for his Armageddon fantasies.

The fit between Hagee's theology (that the world is hurtling toward the final showdown between Christ and the Antichrist at the Mount of Megiddo in Jerusalem -- Armageddon) and neoconservative foreign policy has a long history. Hagee brought this history into public view in 2006 with the launch of CUFI and his vociferous saber-rattling for a war with Iran.   So while Hagee also represents the same-old, same-old religious right (anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-church/state separation), he also brings this foreign policy/Armageddon dimension to McCain's religious outreach.

I'm going to answer the Wright comparison separately.

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by: Sarah Posner @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 20:24:02 PM UTC

Contrast Wright and Hagee (0.00 / 0)

In a way, it's like comparing apples and oranges. Wright comes out of a tradition of challenging the existing power structure, speaking truth to power, if you will. Hagee comes from a tradition of seeking assimilation into the existing power structure. And even though his religious doctrine is extremely controversial (both his dispensationalism and his prosperity preaching, as Paul pointed out in his review), the marriage of convenience the GOP has made the religious right has made him an attractive figure not just to GOP pols who want to bring out Hagee's followers on the hot-button issues, but to the neoconservative foreign policy establishment as well. That's why he was welcomed at AIPAC's conference last year, and why at his CUFI summits in DC he gets leading lights to put their imprimatur on his endeavors. (E.g., Joe Lieberman compared him to Moses; Roy Blunt called CUFI "part of God's plan" at a dinner for major donors last summer that I covered.) I interviewed Rick Santorum last year, and he told me that even though he disagrees with Hagee's eschatology (remember Santorum is Catholic) he thinks Hagee's on target foreign policy-wise. So they're willing to look past his eschatology because his followers are the base for their war agenda. The neocons may want war for other reasons, but it's apparent that they share the desire for war.

Wright, in contrast, challenges the establishment -- the war, economic inequality, for example.  

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by: Sarah Posner @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 20:29:49 PM UTC

Another Multi-Parter (0.00 / 0)

Thanks, Sarah.  I have another multi-part question, which you can answer together or separately, whichever is most natural.

One deeply disturbing aspect of the Word of Faith movement is the way that appears to take advantage of people who have very little in the way of resources.  Obviously, it has a constuency that crosses class lines, but the fact that it gained prominence in the black community during the Reagan era, and that has adherents among other minorities as well gives the strong impression of a decided class skew.  Could you comment on this?  Is this impression correct?  If so, how does it keep drawing people in, year after year?  And what consequences does this have?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 20:33:34 PM UTC

Class Issues in Word of Faith (0.00 / 0)

From what I could see, Word of Faith crosses class lines. Go to a Word of Faith church and you'll see people who are obviously doing well financially, people who look like they are likely on their last legs financially, and everything in between. I once spoke with an escapee from a Word of Faith church, who had been a management-level employee at a big corporation, and he said that belonging to such a church provided a divine justification for his own greed. God wants me to be rich, you say? I therefore have no guilt about wanting more and more stuff.

That said, it's very, very clear that these televangelists prey upon the least among us -- and indeed encourage such predatory behavior by, for example, touting how an unemployed woman gave Rod Parsley her last $6 and then -- voila! She landed a fabulous job. Because it focuses on an irrational view of economic transactions, I've had people tell me that great things happened to them (e.g., got a new house)as a result of tithing (or, on the flip side, feared that bad things happened to them because they didn't tithe).  So they definitely operate from a radically different economic mindset from the "rational man" of traditional economic theory.

Because of its roots in Pentecostalism and the rapidly growing charismatic movement, it was a natural for Word of Faith to attract African-Americans. They were at the forefront of the 20th century charismatic movement, starting with the Azusa Street Revival (1906) and indeed had always participated in the tent revivalism going back to the early 19th century. Mix in Reagan and the declining middle/lower class economic fortune of the 1980s, which is when WOF really started to take off (largely because of TV) and you had a cocktail that enabled people like Kenneth Copeland to start raking in the dough from people of all economic classes and backgrounds.

Remember, the Bush family's evangelical adviser through GHWB's and GWB's campaigns is close with prosperity televangelists and believes that he has financially benefited from the prosperity gospel. So you might think of poor little old ladies mailing in their last pennies to the snake oil salesman on TV, but there are many followers of this doctrine who are well-off and well-connected.

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by: Sarah Posner @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 20:48:53 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

You Did Mention A Sociologist In Your Book (0.00 / 0)

Milmon Harrison

I'm wondering if he, or anyone else has taken a more systematic look at how different classes or other demographic groups have different sorts of relationships or attitudes, or if attitudes tend to be the same?


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 20:55:55 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Sociology.... (0.00 / 0)

Harrison's book is certainly an excellent resource on those questions, as is Shayne Lee's biography of T.D. Jakes. There hasn't been much polling on how many people follow the prosperity gospel, and what their demographic makeup is. The closest poll on these topics we have is the 2006 Pew study on Pentecostal/charismatic movements in the U.S. and abroad -- but the one question it asked on the prosperity gospel was so open-ended that I'm not sure it takes a true measure of how many people believe all the WOF tenets.

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by: Sarah Posner @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 21:00:06 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Wright's Black, Hagee's White... (0.00 / 0)

But Hagee has a significant African-American following. They're coming out of a very different religious tradition, Pentecostalism, which emphasizes the "gifts of the holy spirit," celebrates the individual's personal relationship with Jesus, baptism by choice, and infusion of one's being with the holy spirit. Their religious expression includes speaking in tongues, declaring revelations from God, faith healing and prophesying.

These traditions were melded with the Word of Faith movement, so that Word of Faith churches and congregations exhibit many of the features of Pentecostalism (but not necessarily vice-versa). In these Word of Faith churches, there is much more of an emphasis on the individual -- one's relationship with Christ and how that relationship entitles one to divine health and wealth -- rather than on addressing the issues of one's community, the social justice issues that Wright speaks about. In that sense, Word of Faith enjoys a comfortable relationship with economic conservatism -- not just the social issues, or the foreign policy issues that I discussed in the earlier comment.

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by: Sarah Posner @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 20:39:20 PM UTC

a shifting religious right? (0.00 / 0)

Hi, and thnks for being here.

I have a question about the religious right in general. It seems that younger evangelicals are more interested in focusing on issues like helping the poor, protecting the environment, human rights - in other words, liberal values. How real and how strong is this trend? Do you think it can become the dominant strain of religion-inspired political thinking within, say, a generation?

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by: Chachy @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 20:47:44 PM UTC

Shifts in Young Evangelicals (0.00 / 0)

The answer is pretty complicated, but I'll try to address it briefly. I usually deal with these topics in The FundamentaList, so if you want to stay abreast, you can continue to find this discussion there.

There is certainly an emerging evangelical center and a (much smaller) evangelical left -- they've been there all along, but they're really finding their voice and attention in the media like never before. They will be a force -- and a voice -- in 2008, and in our political discourse for the foreseeable future.

A major question that hasn't been answered by the new center discussion is the treatment of science and the role of government in their political engagement. With regard to science, for example: they still believe that "God's design for marriage" is between a man and a woman, and that people choose to be gay. They therefore are opposed to gay marriage -- even though it is not the central issue of their political platform.

Second, even though some (like Jim Wallis) advocate for a role for government in addressing an issue like poverty, it's not yet clear how far they can go in mobilizing the grassroots around more government involvement. Evangelicals tend to be distrustful of government, believing that the church is better at, say, feeding the hungry. (Under the Bush Administration, true, right?) Another issue is global warming... what will be the role of science, and of government? I think there are a lot of well-intentioned and intelligent people at work on these issues, and how they will mobilize the grassroots will be one of the major political phenomena to watch.

While a lot of evangelicals are swinging more moderate/independent this year, a lot of that may be discontent with the Bush Administration/corrupt GOP. Not yet decisive that they will swing Democratic.

Also, don't discount the pervasive, radically conservative fundamentalism in this country. A lot of young people are still indoctrinated into such thinking.

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by: Sarah Posner @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 20:57:44 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

More On Race (0.00 / 0)

I was struck by the degree to which Word of Faith seemed to attract blacks much more than the traditional religious right has been able to do.  You cited some evidence that this had had a noticeable impact in Ohio.  Is this true more general?  Is it a matter of concern that the black community itself has begun to address?  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 21:03:46 PM UTC

GOP and African Americans (0.00 / 0)

I think two things were happening simultaneously: the GOP was engaged in an explicit outreach to African Americans (for example, in the book, I interviewed the Rove subordinate who was responsible for African American outreach through churches, the point of which was to get W. reelected in '04); and the religious right was bringing more of the prosperity preachers into the fold. So Rod Parsley's emergence as a national figure out of the 2004 election in Ohio was a product of the convergence of those two things.

The traditional religious right is currently engaged in a similar project. Dobson hosted an event in '04 (I think, roughly in that time period) with the intention of bringing more African Americans into the movement. (They like to call it "racial reconciliation in the church). So they brought in people like Harry Jackson, who is just out with a new book co-authored with Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council about the future of the religious right, and Rod Parsley, who is white but whose church is about 40% black.

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by: Sarah Posner @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 21:07:26 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

More On Diversity (0.00 / 0)

Word of Faith seems to be a quintessentially American kind of phenomena.  But America is very attractive to the rest of the world.  I'm wondering to what extent it has spread beyond America, and/or to what extent does it have an appeal in immigrant communities?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 21:10:39 PM UTC

Yes and yes (0.00 / 0)

It has spread all over the world -- I once met a man from India, who was raised a Hindu, and now pastors a Word of Faith church. He was believing for his prosperity, even though he sleeps on a thin little mattress under a leaky roof.

You see a lot of immigrants at WOF churches, but it may be that they were first exposed to it in their home countries. After all, TBN broadcasts all over the world and people like Copeland and Hinn travel and perform crusades and host conferences around the globe.

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by: Sarah Posner @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 21:16:25 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Grassley Investigation (0.00 / 0)

Something that has not yet come up in our discussion is Sen. Charles Grassley's investigation of six Word of Faith televangelists: Kenneth Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Joyce Meyer, Paula White, Eddie Long, and Benny Hinn. As ranking member of the Senate Finance Committee, he's looking into whether they violated their non-profit status by diverting tax-exempt donor funds to a for-profit, personal use.

Several of the televangelists have flat-out refused to cooperate with the probe, and a few weeks ago, Grassley, along with Max Baucus, the chair of the Committee, wrote them new letters that suggested subpoenas would be coming their way if they didn't cooperate informally. This represented the first time that the Democratic majority publicly got involved in the investigation.

The televangelists have been defended by many sectors of the religious right -- the National Religious Broadcasters, the Alliance Defense Fund, to name a couple of prominent ones -- and this demonstrates how, despite the controversy over the doctrine, the religious right rallies around these televangelists' right to "preach the gospel" without government intrusion.

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by: Sarah Posner @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 21:14:00 PM UTC

Two Questions (0.00 / 0)

First, I was wondering how this solidarity versus Grassley's investigation relates to the inquiry from within the conservative religious community itself, such as Ministry Watch?

The second question touches on something I was going to ask about in a broader context.  You mentioned briefly in passing the connections that some Democrats have with the Word of Faith world.  Barack Obama was one of them. I was quite concerned to hear about this.  Are the Democrats generally disinclined to be critical of the sorts of things that Grassley is investigating?  And are they likely to play softball regarding other issues as well?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 21:26:02 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Grassley/Democrats (0.00 / 0)

Although Leonard is part of that religious/political establishment, Ministry Watch is seen more as a watchdog group for fellow Christians. It's one thing, in the televangelists' defenders' minds, to have internal debate, and quite another to have the dreaded government interfere with the church. So even if they have doctrinal disagreements with the prosperity doctrine, they fear that "slippery slope" of government intrusion into church affairs. "Snooping," I think someone called it.

Although in many ways WOF is invisible to progressives, in many other ways it has become a part of mainstream culture. (I was just in my local Barnes and Noble, where Joel Osteen's book, Become A Better You, was on the best-seller list.) T.D. Jakes, from whom Obama has sought guidance, is one of the most popular preachers in America. (Note that Wright has been critical of the prosperity gospel. Like a lot of other preachers who come out of the prophetic black church tradition, he decried its focus on the individual rather than the community.) And Bill Clinton went to Jakes' church service the Sunday before the Texas primary -- just to be seen there, not to speak.

Both parties will have an issue with the larger religious right -- and maybe even other religious figures -- if the Senate Finance Committee issues subpoenas before the election.  

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by: Sarah Posner @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 21:33:51 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Another Dem connection (0.00 / 0)

Nancy Pelosi went to the groundbreaking of Osteen's new church -- a converted sports stadium -- a few years ago.  

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by: Sarah Posner @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 21:36:29 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Why is Grassley doing this investigation? (0.00 / 0)

It (the investigation) seems to have had no predicate, no massive media-glazed scandal to prod this Republican senator to try to take a look at a segment of his own party's power base.  How did this come about, and how long will it be before it bears fruit?

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by: a citizen @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 21:41:47 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Grassley (0.00 / 0)

Grassley has a history of investigating abuses of tax-exempt status -- the United Way, Red Cross, and others. (The Senate Finance Committee has oversight responsibility over the IRS.) So Grassley sees this as part of his larger efforts to fight tax-exempt abuse.

The televangelists were, of course, critical that Grassley (a Baptist) had an objection to their doctrine. I suspect he probably has issues with it, but he says the probe is just about tax issues.

The televangelists have been on his radar screen for quite some time. I think the information he had reached a critical mass that propelled him to action late last year.

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by: Sarah Posner @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 21:47:11 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

So I Take It (0.00 / 0)

There's not a lot of feeling that "we better clean up our own house" as a way to avoid government instrusion, and maybe more of a tendency to not invite anyone to ask questions?

Or would that be going too far?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 21:46:36 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

That's actually a complicated question... (0.00 / 0)

... you see, the conservative evangelicals tend to not trust the government (just like their secular conservative brethren) so their objections have more to do with that and they're therefore willing to cover up their eyes to the possibility of something nefarious going on. They thrive on the narrative that the secular society is out to persecute Christians (indeed that animates much of the Christian right's political rhetoric) so this just adds that sort of fuel to their fire.

Here's a response I got from a more centrist evangelical: well, we all know there are abuses but at least he (referring to Kenneth Copeland) is bringing Christ to people.

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by: Sarah Posner @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 21:52:54 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Do They Really Believe That? (0.00 / 0)

About Copeland?

Or is that just a rationalization, because they don't want to look?

Or some combination of both?

And what about the recurrent sex scandals?  Doesn't that gnaw at them, and make them start to wonder?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 21:56:28 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

That's why this isn't going away... (0.00 / 0)

I don't know what they really think. The person who told me that was Randy Brinson, founder of Redeem the Vote, which has a mailing list of tens of millions of prospective evangelical voters. Brinson, who doesn't like the religious right establishment, but backed Huckabee in the nomination race, told me that when I asked him about Huckabee's relationship with Copeland and the Grassley investigation.

There's too much reluctance among Christians to question it. Maybe that will change with the emergence of some of these more centrist leaders/groups, but so far the popular position has been not to come against another Christian.

Remember also that in their own circles, one of the televangelists' favorite bible verses is Psalm 105:15, "touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm." That's meant to scare people off from questioning them (they consider themselves God's anointed).

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by: Sarah Posner @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 22:05:32 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

But THEY Aren't Shy About Attacking Other Christians (0.00 / 0)

I have a friend whose quite immersed in history of American religion, and he assures me--in addition to what I've read myself--that the religious right has never really stopped attacking their more moderate counterparts since the battles of the late 19th Century.

Talk2Action has written about this fairly regularly as well, particularly the ongoing efforts to undermine and split mainline denominations.

So, again, this doesn't seem terribly sincere to me.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 22:13:44 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

It's not sincere, of course... (0.00 / 0)

Because a lot of the religious right is critical of liberal denominations (like Wright's United Church of Christ, for example) for not hewing to doctrinal issues like believing in the virgin birth. And of course for being liberal, socialist, or any manner of RR bogeymen.

Remember that the prosperity preachers have been the religious right's helpers for many years. Copeland has worked behind the scenes for the Bushes, and C Hinn also has helped Republicans. So like everything else religious right, it's a marriage of convenience that serves a political and electoral purpose.

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by: Sarah Posner @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 22:22:09 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

It's not sincere, of course... (0.00 / 0)

Because a lot of the religious right is critical of liberal denominations (like Wright's United Church of Christ, for example) for not hewing to doctrinal issues like believing in the virgin birth. And of course for being liberal, socialist, or any manner of RR bogeymen.

Remember that the prosperity preachers have been the religious right's helpers for many years. Copeland has worked behind the scenes for the Bushes, and C Hinn also has helped Republicans. So like everything else religious right, it's a marriage of convenience that serves a political and electoral purpose.

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by: Sarah Posner @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 22:22:09 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Of course if more people were aware of what was going on... (0.00 / 0)

... and the Senate Finance Committee heard from them, I wonder whether they would convince them that many Americans (a majority?) would back the probe.

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by: Sarah Posner @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 22:08:21 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The Jewish Question (0.00 / 0)

As a secular Jew, who is already deeply disturbed by the way Israel has changed during my lifetime, I was particularly creeped out by the different forms of (apparently) self-deceiving anti-Semitism that was manifested by different people in the Word of Faith movement--both leaders like Hagee and some of the ordinary people you talked with.  I have three different questions here.

First, what can you say in general about the persistence of anti-Semitism and the inability of people to recognize it?  I take it for granted that many of the people you met genuinely do not harbor intentional ill-will--but that still doesn't alter objective facts (both regarding the origins of their beliefs, and what it would mean for actual real live Jews.)

Second, what can you say about the willingness of both Israeli and American Jews to embrace these people as allies?

Third--and it's quite all right if you don't feel comfortable answering this--I just wonder what it feels like to interact with these people, to actually confront these contradictions face to face with seemingly normal, even smiling-at-you people?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 21:43:56 PM UTC

Oh, my... (0.00 / 0)

Yes, of course it is anti-Semitic to consider the Jews pawns in their Armageddon fantasies... before Jesus comes back, there has to be an in-gathering of Jews in Israel, that's all in the biblical prophecy. But they don't view it that way, of course; in many instances I was treated with great affection (I guess) when people found out I was Jewish.

A lot of American and Israeli Jews are more than willing (in fact are glad to) embrace the Christian Zionists. As a woman at the AIPAC conference last year said to me, "Israel needs all the friends it can get." (I know, I know, with friends like these....) But Israeli Jews embrace the Christian Zionists, too. Their Holy Land excursions bring a lot of tourist dollars, and many Likudniks and other hawkish elements see them as powerful advocates for the settlements, etc.

I have to admit it was a very odd experience talking to the "Hebraic Christians" I met in my travels. The most strained moment always was when I asked them whether they believed that when Jesus comes back that Jews would recognize him as the messiah they've been waiting for. The answer: yes, of course! (Hagee denied that he believes that  when I asked him that question in a press conference at the CUFI summit last year.)

Something many people don't realize is that the Hebraic Christians observe the Jewish holidays. (In the book, I detail a Hagee sermon in which he purports to show how the Jewish holidays from Passover through Sukkot prophesy Christ's birth, death, resurrection and return.) They think they're getting ready for Christ to come back, when he will be a rabbi to the world. But of course with the WOF spin, Judaism gets distorted just like Christianity does.  

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by: Sarah Posner @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 22:01:27 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

What About Carlton Pearson? (0.00 / 0)

I was fascinated by Carlton Pearson, his evolution, and the rejection that greeted him.  From what I understood, there is a certain natural logic to his direction.  (The Universalists, with whom Unitarians are aligned, went through something similar generations ago.)

Are there others who support or follow him?  Is their more ambiguity toward him outside of the top echelons?  Are their other signs of possibly similar dynamics in other quarters?

And if not, what made him so different?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 22:09:25 PM UTC

Pearson is indeed (0.00 / 0)

a fascinating figure... how a black Pentecostal who grew up poor and reached the upper echelons of the charismatic movement, only to fall when he questioned the most essential question of Christian doctrine: the notion of hell. Abandoned completely, and as he told me, "It was a business decision to stay away from Carlton Pearson."

Only a few hundred people go to his church now in Tulsa. Contrast that to Hagin's church in nearby Broken Arrow, where I saw thousands worship, or Billy Joe Daugherty's brand-new mega-church across from ORU, where I saw a SRO crowd come to hear Joyce Meyer.

The only people who remain friendly with Pearson from the old days are Mark Hanby (who I show in the book has his own ethical issues) and Earl Paulk, the fallen Atlanta televangelist (and former GHWB "thousand point of light") brought down by a wide-ranging and horrific sex scandal. Paulk recently pled guilty to perjury in a civil lawsuit brought by one of his congregants, charging that he forced her to have sex with him over a 14 year period. Paulk testified in a deposition that he'd never had sex outside his marriage -- but that was proved a lie when DNA testing showed that he had fathered his brother's son-- that's right, he slept with his brother's sister. Paulk remains loyal to Pearson (because under Pearson's new theology, Paulk's not going to hell) and Pearson remains loyal to him.

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by: Sarah Posner @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 22:17:52 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

What A Tangled Web! (0.00 / 0)

For me, Peason was the most attractive and fascinating person you wrote about.  And Paulk was the most instinctually repulsive.

Talk about the odd couple.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 22:23:25 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Like all things involving religion.... (0.00 / 0)

there are things amazing, and things contradictory.  

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by: Sarah Posner @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 22:26:13 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

So long for now, but let's keep talking.... (0.00 / 0)

I'm signing off for now, but I'd like to thank Paul and Open Left for hosting this discussion. I will check back in over the next couple of days, so if anyone has more questions or comments, please post them and I will respond.  

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by: Sarah Posner @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 22:25:22 PM UTC

Thank You So Much, Sarah! (0.00 / 0)

This was a very quick, lively and informative two hours (and change). And thanks even more for offering to check back in. Thanks to everyone else who participated as well.

And lurkers... now's your chance to carefully formulate those questions you were too shy to ask while Sarah was here in person.  I know you're out there....

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 22:32:35 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Religion and Class (0.00 / 0)

Hi, Sarah.  I apologize in advance for not yet having read your book, and I missed the "salon", but I do have a question.  

I've been doing some reading about the charismatic/pentecostal movement and about social class in religion.  As I understand it, in urban areas the mainline churches are mostly middle-class (although that can mean different things in the white and black community, for example) while the holiness/charismatic churches (often storefront churches) are mostly working class and poor. Community organizing groups generally have trouble recruiting the charismatic folks because they focus more on faith than works (to simplify a complex issue).  From what I can tell, it seems pretty accurate to say that churches are one of the most class segregated institutions in America.  

The religious right charismatics, these prosperity folks, seem to break this mold, bringing in a range of people from different classes. Part of it, obviously, is the fact that they give a "pass" on greed.  But I wonder if there is a richer story to be told about this.  And this seems to relate to all the writing about class and politics that's come out over the last decade or so.  You've spoken to this a little in your other posts, but do you have any other thoughts about this.  This issue of social class and religion seems like a key challenge for congregational approaches to community organizing, but doesn't seem to be talked about much (at least in public).

--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)

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by: educationaction @ Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 02:55:14 AM UTC

religion and class (0.00 / 0)

This is a far too complex topic to be treated in a couple of paragraphs, but my short answer would be that the prosperity gospel movement crosses class boundaries, and as the sociologist Shayne Lee has shown in his work, it melds the pentecostal/holiness traditions with modern consumerism and self-help bromides. It's the injection of hyper-capitalism (and hence individualism) into church life that makes it more difficult to do community organizing. Church and spirituality become about self-improvement and self-indulgence, rather than about the community. That the prosperity gospel movement has crossed class lines with this form of Christianity demonstrates that it's not amenable to easy categorizing about class.

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by: Sarah Posner @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 16:38:26 PM UTC

[ Parent ]