Nomination Campaign Reduced To Lengthy Electability Argument

by: Chris Bowers

Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 11:50


OK, I'll say it: the nomination campaign is played out. After more than a year of settling the primary field, releasing dozens of policy papers, watching more than twenty debates, determining the key differences between the candidates, examining the evolving rhetoric and stump speeches, settling the primary calendar, building national organizations, and following the ups and downs of the polls, it seems that all we are left with is a lengthy, and increasingly boring, electability argument.

One the one hand, the Clinton campaign is arguing that only Hillary Clinton can win the general election, because she has passed the "Command in Chief test," because she has won enough states to win the electoral college, because she has already taken on the Republican Noise Machine and won while Obama has not been similarly vetted, because she has won "the big blue states" needed to win the general election, because she won Ohio and no one has ever won the general election without winning Ohio, and because she wins the key swing demographics like Latinos and working class whites. On the other hand, there are repeated implications from the Obama campaign and Obama supporters that there is no way Hillary Clinton can win the nomination because she can't win the popular vote, because she can't catch up in pledged delegates, and because the delegate math is stacked against her. And even beyond the arguments made by the Clinton and Obama campaigns, there is a third discussion about whether either Democrat can win if the nomination is not decided until the convention, or even if the rifts the party has opened up are too wide to heal in time.

Basically, after fourteen months of hashing out the differences between the candidates on virtually every other metric, with four weeks until the Pennsylvania primary, with no revotes in Florida and Michigan, and with less than 20% of the voting actually remaining, it seems that all we have left is a long argument about electability. That is a problem because, let's face it, long arguments about electability are really boring because they are ultimately unprovable and go nowhere. Even when discussions on race puncture the narrative, they are also couched in "electability" terms. Does Jeremiah Wright make Obama too racially polarizing to win the general election? Has Hillary Clinton alienated African-Americans too deeply to win the general election? It is a frustrating, boring catch-22, where the nomination campaign has become entirely an argument about who can win the general election, but we can't reach the general election because we can't settle the debate about who would perform better in it.

What isn't boring is the vast array of groups lined up to take on Republicans in the general election, a fully fledged left-wing conspiracy that, at long last, will be able to swamp the right in terms of activism and money spent. What isn't boring is the Responsible Plan to end the Iraq war, where an effort organized outside of the traditional institutional structures of party committees and think tanks now has over twenty-five endorsements from Democratic congressional candidates. What isn't boring is finding new and innovative means of attacking John McCain via search engine optimization, which is an effective, direct, quantifiable means of activism that anyone can accomplish simply through the use of embedded hyperlinks. We have built up a huge infrastructure utilizing new coalitions, new institutions, and new organizing techniques, and I am excited to see them in action. Unfortunately, it can't really take off yet because we are still slogging through an endless electability argument in a primary campaign with no end. In fact, even though I live in Philadelphia, I find the nearly dozen state legislative primaries to be more interesting than the presidential primary. The fact is that we already pretty much know that the campaign will continue past Pennsylvania, and we also already know the pledged delegate counts in the two main Philadelphia congressional districts (PA-01 will go for Obama 4-3, while PA-02 will go for Obama 6-3).

Barring something shocking, like the Michigan delegation being seated as is, the delegate math is clearly laid out before us, and Obama will slowly slog toward clinching the nomination sometime between May 20th and June 21st. For now, unfortunately, we are stuck in a holding pattern of an endless electability argument. I don't think that this sort of campaign will carry with it the benefit of the first two months of the year, where an intense, high-profile Democratic nomination campaign was largely helpful to the party. That is demonstrable by McCain taking the lead in general election matchups over the past two weeks. Without any voting to maintain interest between Mississippi and Pennsylvania, the void has been filled with electability and race (with the latter really being about electability). That is not the kind of discussion that Democrats need to win, because when Democrats talk about electability, no one believes what Democrats say.  

Chris Bowers :: Nomination Campaign Reduced To Lengthy Electability Argument

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Well, Chris, (4.00 / 1)
if you wanted to try to help end the primary contest, you could endorse Obama and try to convince the superdelegates you know personally to do the same. I agree that this tedious electability conversation is just going to drag on pointlessly and the only way it will end is if Clinton ends her campaign. The contest is basically decided, but Clinton needs a reason to concede, and the only thing that will do that is a wave of superdelegates endorsing Obama.  

I can also (4.00 / 1)
round up votes in PA. It may be virtually hopeless for Obama to win here, but if he does, it is all over.  

[ Parent ]
hold down her margin of victory at least (4.00 / 1)
Even holding down her margin in PA could be important. A 15+ point Clinton win could give some momentum to her superdelegate arguments (especially about Obama and working class voters) and vault her into contention in NC and IN. A narrow win (under 10%) could allow Obama to say to the superdelegates that she has failed at her last chance to dramatically affect the course of the election and it is time for them to endorse the pledged delegate leader (him).

[ Parent ]
Just getting the margin to single digits (0.00 / 0)
Would help a great deal.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
Unfortunately, I agree that it comes down to this (0.00 / 0)
I've been yammering on about the super delegates now for weeks (egads! months, actually). If they haven't gone over by now, I suppose they really are gonna wait this out a bit more.

Oh well...yeah, get those votes, would ya?


[ Parent ]
Coattails and Map-Changing (0.00 / 0)
One other argument: Who's best for the Democratic Party?

I have to take issue with your comment:

Basically, after fourteen months of hashing out the differences between the candidates on virtually every other metric, with four weeks until the Pennsylvania primary, with no revotes in Florida and Michigan, and with less than 20% of the voting actually remaining, it seems that all we have left is a long argument about electability.

If I can crassly link to myself, Obama is the map-changer for Democrats this year, bringing the following states into play: Colorado, Washington, Oregon, Nevada, N. Dakota, and even frikkin' Texas.

Strategically thinking, the Democratic Party should take what Obama offers, and run with it.


That's still an electability argument (0.00 / 0)
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but that is still an electability centered argument.

[ Parent ]
Apparently both Clinton & Obama can be elected. (0.00 / 0)
The big deal is how huge the shift is in the Western and Central states. We're talking 15 or 20 points. That is map-changing now and for the future. It indicates some serious coattails.

Now, losing Pennsylvania isn't anything to sneeze at, but seriously, do you really see Pennsylvania becoming Republican?  


[ Parent ]
Sorry (0.00 / 0)
I guess that would have to be either Clinton or Obama!

[ Parent ]
Electability is not an issue? (0.00 / 0)
Because you are a numbers guy let's take two Must Win States - Ohio and Florida

McCain leads Obama by 7 points in a SurveyUSA poll in Ohio.

McCain leads Obama by 2 points in a SurveyUSA poll in Florida.

By contrast:

Clinton leads McCain by 6 points in a SurveyUSA poll in Ohio.

Clinton leads McCain by 9 points in a SurveyUSA poll in Florida.

That equates to a 13 point swing favoring Clinton in Ohio and a 11 point swing favoring Clinton in Florida - again two must win states.

So given that the idea here is to put a Democrat in the WH and that this race is amazingly close with no one candidate able to reach the magic number to win the nomination outright why shouldn't electability be an issue?

When you look at Ohio and Florida and the current polling numbers shouldn't we (the Supers) be determining who can actually win those states rather that who the feel-good candidates is?



[ Parent ]
Go Read. (4.00 / 1)
The SUSA Matchup Polls. Don't forget to look at the Partisan ID cross tabs. Actual evidence shows that either candidate can win over McCain, they just use different states to do it.

Obama does particularly well in the West. His advantage htere is map-changing because he gains a huge advantage from independents. Even Texas is within one point!

Also, Obama doesn't lose as many Democrats to McCain as Clinton does. What's that about?



[ Parent ]
You can roll the dice (0.00 / 0)
if you want to. Myself I'd rather depend on winning what we have always won and win Ohio and Florida in addition than count on states we have never won and are predictably volatile in which direction they can turn.

Additionally your numbers are old numbers which in the case of Ohio as an example show Obama winning that state. But the latest SUSA numbers show him losing that state which would mean that instead of him winning the nomination 280 to 258 he would actually lose 278 to 260. Oops!

Additionally your old numbers show Michigan (17 ev) as a virtual tossup with both candidates making both Ohio and Florida both more important. They are key states and Obama has slid backward big time in Ohio.

So as for your map changing - no thanks. We should keep our strongholds and add both Ohio and Florida, two states we are always competitive in and take the WH. You may like crap shoots when it comes to our country, I don't.


[ Parent ]
Never won? (4.00 / 1)
The Clinton 1996 map looks pretty different from the Bush/Kerry map.  California was in play as recently as 1992.  This argument doesn't make much sense to me.  Static electoral maps like the ones we've seen in 2000 and 2004 are pretty rare.  Running for the same five swing states every year while ignoring current polling strikes me as a bit silly, especially since it hasn't been proven to be that great of a winner for Democrats.

[ Parent ]
How quickly (0.00 / 0)
you forget.

Had it not been for Bush taking Florida to the SCOTUS in 2000 ans the Ohio voter suppression in 2004 both of those states would have put us in the WH in both of those years.

So bottomline each of those states were instrumental in 'winning' and are likely to be instrumental again.

But hey if you want to count on S. Carolina or Iowa or Wyoming or even Colorado - none of which are Shoo-ins, and all of which carry less than half the EV of Ohio or Florida - and discount Ohio and Florida be my guest. It's your country.

Trade two or more 'maybe' states for Ohio or Florida? Great strategy!


[ Parent ]
that's not the strategy (4.00 / 1)
and I'm not forgetting anything, you are.  History does not begin in 2000.  Clinton didn't carry Florida in 1992, for example.  Pretending that every election is going to play out exactly like the last two is insane.  

No one is advocating abandoning any state.  All that is being said is that Clinton and Obama have different bases of support, but have roughly the same national support, and that Obama has a lead in a wider part of the electorate.  

And anyway, this argument is obnoxious, because head to head polls right now are meaningless, and most of these methodologies count states where a candidate's "lead" is within the margin of error.  

If you want to obsess about head to head matchups eight months out before there is even a nominee, and then, within that section, focus on two states that, although they were insturmental in 2000 and 2004, might not be in 2008, knock yourself out.  

But no state is a shoo-in, and the five state strategy of Kerry and Gore has just lost over and over.  It might not have worked for Clinton if there had been no Ross Perot.


[ Parent ]
1992? (0.00 / 0)
LOL. Not only was that a long time ago, more importantly those were much different times my friend. The world was a safer place, the economy was not in the dumpster in the way it is now, and Bill Clinton was not running against a moderate Republican who can claim National Security credentials.

As for Kerry and Gore - neither were natural fighters which is what really doomed the both of them. And Obama is closer to those two in the 'non-fighting' category than Clinton is. Both Kerry and Gore tried to run a 'high road' campaign like Obama does and lost. You can bet that McCain is going to take off the gloves as will Clinton. Obama doesn't have that in him and nice guys finish second in the General especially in today's world.

As for head to heads - no it isn't November 2nd but to ignore trends is foolish. And don't forget an awful lot of Obama people like to point to those trends to say Clinton should drop out because this primary race is hurting our chances. But of course poll trends only matter when it makes a point for Obama and those same poll trends mean nothing when they go against him. Yeah right!


[ Parent ]
I don't care about Clinton vs. Obama. I really don't (0.00 / 0)
they are almost exactly the same to me when measured against McCain.  And are you kidding me about the economy not being in the crapper and being a major campaign issue in 1992?  Seriously?  Did Carville run on "It's the economy doing so well under Bush, stupid?

All Im' saying is that maps change.  They change pretty naturally, and to claim that somehow, a permanent red/blue state map has been created, and all that can happen is that marginal states can get flipped is something that is shortsighted and is also something that has not been particularly effective for the democrats, neither in the short term nor in the long term.  Is 270 electoral votes the most we can really hope for?  Was it the most Gore could have hoped for in December, 1999?  I really don't think so.

This campaign is going to feel a lot more like 1992 than it will 2004.  If Bloomberg runs, we'll even have the crazy third party billionaire guy.  


[ Parent ]
I said (0.00 / 0)
"the economy was not in the dumpster in the way it is NOW."

And it wasn't. No jobs bleeding off to other lands. No Wall street 'credit crunch', no triple digit inflation on energy prices, etc...

Need I go on?


[ Parent ]
The S&L crisis? (0.00 / 0)
We were saved by the tech boom in the 90s.  There were the same issues with jobs being shipped abroad--it just hadn't progressed as far yet, since THAT's been an unresolved issue all of this time.  It's why labor freaked out so much about NAFTA when it was up for it's original approval.  Remeber when MFN for China was a big issue?  This was also some of the motivation behind that.  

there was also quite the unemployment spike in the late 80s and early 90s, if I remember correctly.  You're talking about a quantative difference, not a qualitative one.  The '91 recession was enough to take Bush I down.  All of the same criticisms from then are being made now.  And, regardless of whether Obama or Clinton wins this November, little will be done to change any of the underlying problems that cause these cycles of speculation, OR the shipping of jobs abroad.    


[ Parent ]
And, additionally (0.00 / 0)
The world was a safer place????

The collapse of the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia had just created mass chaos in Eastern and central Europe, including two separate incidents of ethnic claensing in Kosovo and Bosnia, chaos all along the Caucuses, many of which are unresolved to this day, the rise of nasty dictatorships in Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Belarus, and huge amounts of instability in Russia itself, as oligarchs took over the country in the wake of the US-led privitazation scheme.  The genocide in Rwanda was lying on the horizon, and the US had just involved itself in two military actions in Iraq and Somalia whose 'resolutions' would prove to be problematic in the future.  Add to this all or Reagan/Bush's adventurism in Latin America, and I find it crazy to claim that the world was safer in 1992 than it is today.  

The Republicans have used foreign policy scares as a way to rile up the public since McKinley was president.  It's time the Dems actually decided to fight back.  I really hope that the winner of this contest decides to run on an argument similar to Johnson '64 against McCain.


[ Parent ]
Go Read The Polls (4.00 / 1)
I'm uninterested in your opinion (everybody's got one). I'd rather look at actual numbers. An extensive review of polling data on the 2008 General election is maintained at Poblano's website, fivethirtyeight.com

Again, actual data from multiple polls show that Obama wins some states, Clinton wins different ones, but the sum total favors Obama.

Again, look at the cross-tabs. Obama's success with Independents is an indication that he could be very effective at changing the electoral map.

McCain vs Obama/Clinton Swing states include:

NH 4ev
PA 21ev
AR 6ev
WV 5ev
OH 20ev
MI 17ev
WI10ev
IA 7ev
CO 9ev
NM 5ev
NV 5ev
OR 7ev

Note that Florida is not on Poblano's list of states likely to be won by either Obama or Clinton.


[ Parent ]
Who's Poblano? (0.00 / 0)
I'm looking at SUSA's actual polls. The one you cited is old. The newer numbers are at Realclearpolitics.

If you want to keep citing old numbers to make a point you are not making much of a point are you. It's not like you can take old numbers and freeze them in time.


[ Parent ]
Poblano (0.00 / 0)
is a guy doing exactly the type of analysis you seem to be interested in, but being much more thorough and not cherry picking.

[ Parent ]
This has been endlessly rehashed (0.00 / 0)
elsewhere and you know it. You are cherry picking states and polls and you know it.

Obama has good and bad states and regions, as does Clinton.

I wish the partisans here and elsewhere could admit this.


[ Parent ]
Florida and Ohio (0.00 / 0)
are cherry picking?

Well I guess if you mean that are both must have 'cherries' then you are correct.

If you are instead saying that I am mentioning two obscure and unimportant states then you are being disingenuous.


[ Parent ]
"the feel-good candidate" (0.00 / 0)
Yep. That damn speech in 02! If only.......

[ Parent ]
Ohio (0.00 / 0)
There is a whole list of reasons listed in the main post as to why Hillary is the most electable all of which to a logical person are valid. Ohio sticks out like a sore thumb.

But yet not one reason is listed as to why Obama is the most electable. That is pretty glaring.

We have nominated a whole slew of Democratic candidates that have gone on to lose the the General proving that the primaries don't always, or even often, get it right.

It seems that Obama's whole argument is that he inspires. Well inspiration will not fix the nation's problems. What will truly inspire people is to have jobs and healthcare and education and a secure future. Inspirational speeches just won't accomplish that. Different times call for different leaders and right now we don't need a feel-good figurehead. What we need is the best technocrat that we can put into office and one that in the primaries has showed they can carry the necessary states and the necessary constituencies. It is pretty clear regardless of caucus driven delegate counts, many which were won in states that we will never carry in the General, that Clinton is the technocrat who has the important states and the broader and more important constituent following to win the General. It is pretty clear that her decades old vetting will stand up to McCain where Obama is ripe for new attacks not only on his relative inexperience but also a whole host of other things. Not to mention that he doesn't do that well in comparison to Clinton with Democrats in general, women voters who are arguably the most important in General elections, along with working Whites, etc.

That Chris finds all this boring is quite surprising. Since when has the issue of who can WIN the WH boring?

Already Obama people are setting up the excuse that if Obama were to lose to McCain it is all Clinton's fault. Well I am sorry but if Obama were the candidate people say he is he would be using this opportunity to show why he is more electable rather than use his time talking about race which is not a major issue in the General election. Obama is not going to beat McCain or anyone else talking about race. If the type of speeches we have been hearing are an indication on how he is going to show why he should be elected instead of McCain then we are in for Kerry Part II.

We have Clinton making a good case as to why she is the most electable backed by solid electoral evidence - and then we have a leader in delegates, whose slim lead is mainly driven by wins in small caucus states that we have no chance of winning in November, not making an electability argument at all but instead talking about things that are not pertinent issues in winning over McCain.

Which is talking about winning and how - and who is not?

Remember in the 2004 General we didn't win Iowa or S. Carolina, or Wyoming or Idaho of Montana. Obama might have won states like those to give him his slim lead but they are no indicators of who can carry the states we know we need to carry.

I don't know about anyone else but when I see McCain SurveyUSA polling 7 points better in Ohio than Obama and then see Clinton SurveyUSA polling 7 points better than McCain in Ohio it concerns me a great deal on just who is better suited to win the States we need to win. That is a 14 point swing in a must have state!!!

So we must ask - is it more important to win the WH? Or is it most important to have a caucus driven primary winner who is 14 points behind the other candidate in Ohio run because he is 'our guy'?

President Clinton or President McCain?


[ Parent ]
So. (4.00 / 2)
What you're saying is that the states Obama won don't matter, while the states that Clinton did do.  And you're also saying that wins in the primary equal wins in the general election.

If you're going to look at poll numbers, why do you ignore the SUSA nationwide maps of Obama winning more states and putting those states you write off into play?  If you're going to use poll numbers to prove Clinton more electable in Ohio, then you also have to look at the poll numbers that say Obama is more electable nearly everywhere else in the country.

Heard it all before, and I'm sure we'll hear it all again.  

The fact of the matter is that Obama has more states, more votes, more delegates, and for Clinton to be the nomination, you're saying that none of those leads should matter.  I don't know what electability is, concretely.  But I do know what it's not, and that's trying to get people to vote for someone who didn't WIN the nomination, but rather had it given to them.


[ Parent ]
Into Play? (0.00 / 0)
That means what? That we don't lose them as badly as in the past? Well a loss is a loss even if it is a close loss.

And a loss in Ohio and Florida in which Obama is running behind in means that even a win in Iowa for example means nothing - he'd still lose the nomination.

Into play! This is no time to abandon the states that are must win swing states in favor of rolling the dice and winning S. Carolina instead.

I'd really suggest that you come out of your Obama cloud of joy and look at the electoral numbers and quit ignoring information about Must Win states like Ohio and Florida both of which I have addressed in this thread. Not a word from you of concern on those states. Why?


[ Parent ]
Florida is now way guaranteed for Clinton (0.00 / 0)
In fact == Florida is more likely to vote for a real war hawk than a pretend one.

[ Parent ]
Hummmm? (0.00 / 0)
Let's see here. Who was it who said they would unilaterally bomb parts of Pakistan? Maybe Obama should be ahead in Florida.

[ Parent ]
Nice... try... (0.00 / 0)
but this is what Obama really said:

"...And for his sake and ours, we cannot tolerate a sanctuary for terrorists who threaten America's homeland and Pakistan's stability. If we have actionable intelligence about high-level al Qaeda targets in Pakistan's border region, we must act if Pakistan will not or cannot. Senator Clinton, Senator McCain, and President Bush have all distorted and derided this position, suggesting that I would invade or bomb Pakistan. This is politics, pure and simple. My position, in fact, is the same pragmatic policy that all three of them have belatedly - if tacitly - acknowledged is one we should pursue. Indeed, it was months after I called for this policy that a top al Qaeda leader was taken out in Pakistan by an American aircraft. And remember that the same three individuals who now criticize me for supporting a targeted strike on the terrorists who carried out the 9/11 attacks, are the same three individuals that supported an invasion of Iraq - a country that had nothing to do with 9/11.

http://www.reuters.com/article...
Florida appears more interested in bombing the crap out of Iran rather dealing with the borders of Pakistan and Afghanstan where the 911 perpetators STILL reside.


[ Parent ]
Actually (0.00 / 1)
I was referring to what Obama said in the debate - not his 'cleanup' that you cited.

[ Parent ]
Yeah... figures... you're not interested what the guy actually (0.00 / 0)
says ... wanting complete sentences... you just want the bumper sticker...


[ Parent ]
Did he give a bumper sticker (0.00 / 1)
in the debate? That is when he first mentioned bombing Pakistan. A fact that you are trying to dance around.

Had he not said what he said in the debate there would have been no need for the cleanup on his part and the 'smoke and mirrors' and denial on you part.

But you already know all that don't you?


[ Parent ]
No you made up the bumper sticker (0.00 / 0)
before you were prepared to 'understand' what he was saying -- It's unfortunate that so many of Clinton's supporters have no understanding of nuance, do not seem to have a have grasp of US foreign policy...

"...Sen. Joe Biden of Delaware responded later in the debate, noting that the strategy Obama outlined was already U.S. policy.

"Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts," Biden said. "It's already the policy of the United States -- has been for four years -- that there's actionable intelligence, we would go into Pakistan." ...

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITI...

You are trying to make out the Obama would be bombing Pakistan like Clinton and McCain and Lieberman want to go into Iran and blow it to bits...  and that is just not the case....

So no ... it wasn't a clean up... his explanation of what he meant during the debates was to take and reach people like you that needed to be educated a little bit more.


[ Parent ]
Leadership styles (4.00 / 2)
This is the key difference, not policy oir demographic diffrences.  Obama was absolutely correct in saying that someone (like Hillary) who espouses a path to nomination that would overturn the will of the majority of voters and pledged delegates believes in top-down, not people-powered democracy, and such a person is going to tinker around the edges, not make the kind of fundamental changes in DC that we want and need.

That, it seems to me, is the nut of the difference between the two.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


As always, (0.00 / 0)
Mimikatz, you are right on!

[ Parent ]
Electability is all we have left (0.00 / 0)
The electability is all we have left, nothing else matters now.

The delegate count won't matter, math won't matter:
We are in for a deadlock on that subject, it is going to be like that:
O: I have the popular vote, and the most delegates
H: You stonewalled the revote of Florida and Michigan, Without Florida and Michigan, you've got nothing.

A rhetorical deadlock, I give you a few examples:
"The Clinton are not respecting the rules, they are cheating, they are thugs"
"Obama blocked the revotes because he was afraid to lose, he disenfranchised voters"

I agree that so far the electability argument has been somewhat empty for the lack of reliable estimates. But don't worry, it's coming, if Obama get a thumping in PA and does very poorly with white blue collar, the electability argument will jump to a new level. The same will happen if Obama holds his own.

Now as far as I am concerned, the ball is on Obama's camp, he must demonstrate that he is not damaged goods. The perception is that the Wright story may have hurt him very badly. My gut feeling is that it will take a lot more that a nice speech to make up for the GROSS political mistake that is remaining closely associated with a guy who was basically saying that America was responsible for 911 and that "god damn America".

Just picture at, a little tv ad with packed together:
Obama without a flag pin,
Obama without his hand on his heart
Michelle obama, never proud of her country before
Rev Wright Sermon
The twin towers falling
Courageous fire fighters rushing in
Families of the victims weeping

Sure that would not influence the crowd at open left, be we are not exactly representative are we?

What I espect from Obama in the next couple of Months is a clear demonstration that he can survive that kind of attack ad. My belief is that he can't, if it weren't for the 911 comment, yes, but as it stands, probably not. Anyway, we will all have a better idea after PA.


However Clinton IS damaged goods... (4.00 / 1)
... If she is our nominee we WILL lose...  After having to listen to her long list of lies.... her Bosnia delusion finally did it.  

If you don't think her problem with dealing with the truth won't come up in the GE then you are in denial.  A habital liar vs.  an batty old guy... My thinking the batty old guy will still come up tops.. She's had numerous 'Dean Scream' moments... but she doesn't want to 'get-it' -- it's over...

She has no credibility left ... nada zip.  We can go on with numerous posts here, TPM etc... on what he said, what she said, but when is all said and done... McCain is still going to come selling of roses.  We don't have TIME for this... each week that goes by we are losing more 'low-info' people to McCain and the window for us to get these people back is closing... fast...

And, now we now find out that there are DLC superdelegates (wanting Hillary) who appear more aligned with Lieberman -- than with wanting to bring the Party together... do I want these guys choosing our nominee... no freakin way.

Ms. Debbie Wasserman-Schulz et al.

The Forward: "Dozens of Jewish Super-Delegates May Hold Key to Democratic Race"
http://www.forward.com/article...


[ Parent ]
Okaaaay... (1.33 / 3)
Ok, I get it Hillary is the Antichrist.
And what is Obama, Jesus? That might not be such a good thing, didn't jesus get crucified or something?

[ Parent ]
You said Anti-Christ... not me.... (0.00 / 0)
However, Hillary is a really really bad candidate...

The press and rightwing nutjobs haven't even started on her yet.

Plus, some of us (Obama supporters) have seriously at a possible Hillary nominee == and because we haven't drunk the Clinton kool-aid realize it's going to nye impossible for us to defend some of her incredible gaffes and obnoxious parts of her character.

Booman did a good summary post:

The Depressing Joyless Slog
http://www.boomantribune.com/s...


[ Parent ]
McCain vs. Obama or Clinton Myth (4.00 / 1)
Which Democratic presidential candidate would the Republicans prefer to face?  Which Democratic candidate would more likely beat or lose to McCain?

These questions are bogus, and are asked most frequently by the media, Republicans, and members of the Obama camp!   Aside:  Talk to Clinton and former Edwards supporters.  They will almost always say they will support either of our candidates.  But, Obama supporters too often say they or others will stay home or vote McCain.  That is some testimonial for the Obama camp.

My analysis below is based on voting numbers published on the CNN site:
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/20...  

In Vermont, Obama beat Clinton, but each of them had more votes than the total of all of the Republican candidates.  In Ohio, Clinton won, and again, each had more votes than all of the Republicans.  Georgia, which uses a 21st century calender and a 19th century brain, is a worst case as being notoriously Republican.  Yet, the total Democratic vote exceeds the total for Republicans by over 90,000 votes.

In Vermont, Obama won with 91,740 votes to Clinton's 59,640, with a total of 152,380 Democratic votes.  The three Republican candidates received a total of 36,730 votes.

In Ohio, Clinton won with 1,207,806 votes to Obama's 979,025, with a total of 2,186,831 votes.  The three Republican candidates received a total of 717,864.

In Georgia, Obama won with 700,366 votes to Clinton's 328,129 and Edwards' 17,990, with a total of 1,046,485 votes.  The five Republican candidates received a total of 954,462.

So, in states like Vermont and Ohio, it would require a bizarre combination of events for McCain to beat either Obama or Clinton .  Many, many more Republicans would have to show up at the polls.  Many, many Democrats would have to defect and vote Republican.  Many, many Democrats would have to stay home.  It may be that the final results of the primaries and caucuses will cause some of all to happen (Republican increases, Democratic defections, Democratic absences).  We can not predict how it might happen in real life, but we can look at the extremes.  And, if these extremes are ridiculous, we might be able to infer that anything in between might be at least close to ridiculous or highly improbable.

Extreme case 1, Republican increases:  Republicans turn out in extraordinary numbers, and the Democratic vote stays the same.  In Vermont, this would require that over four times as many Republicans (115,651 additional) materialize on election day.  In Ohio, it would require over three times as many Republicans (1,232,370 additional).  Georgia requires a mere increase of nine to ten percent (92,024 additional) increase in Republican voters.

Extreme case 2, Democratic defections:  Democratic voters defect, and the Republican vote stays the same.  In Vermont, it would require 57,826 Democratic defections for McCain to win.  This would be 63% of Obama supporters or 97% of Clinton supporters.  In Ohio, it would require 734,485 Democratic defections for McCain to win.  This would be 75% of Obama supporters or 61% of Clinton supporters.  As expected, Georgia requires only 46,012 defections.  Even if all of Edwards votes go to McCain (which I doubt), it would still require -- 28,022 Obama or Clinton supporters to defect.

Extreme case 3, Democratic absences:  A complete faction of the Democrats (all Obama or all Clinton) do not vote at all, and the Republican vote stays the same.  As stated above, before I got into the numbers, in both Vermont and Ohio, both Obama and Clinton would whoop the shit out of McCain all by themselves, regardless of how they fared against each other.  However, in Georgia, it would only require nine percent (92,024) of Democrats to stay home to swing the vote.  Again, if we were to take away all of Edwards' supporters, seven percent (74,034) of the other Democrats must sit out the election.

Speculative, hybrid case:  Now I'll try a case which favors the argument that "all is lost if Obama is not the Democratic presidential candidate", and includes a variation from each of three extreme cases.  For this I'll use Vermont, where Obama won the primary.  Suppose that the Republican turn out is double (100% higher than) the primary and they all go for McCain.  Suppose that 25% of Obama supporters defect and vote for McCain.  Suppose that an additional 25% of Obama supporters become dispirited and just stay home.  Suppose that the remaining 50% of Obama supporters vote for Clinton, in addition to her original primary votes.

In this scenario, McCain would receive 36,730 original primary votes, plus 36,730 additional Republican votes, plus 22,935 Democratic defection votes for a total of 96,395.  Clinton would receive her 59,640 primary votes, plus 45,780 votes from Obama supporters for a total of 105,510.  So, even in this case which requires Obama supporters to behave irrationally, Hillary R. Clinton would still beat McCain, 52% to 48%.  


Aside: Talk to Clinton and former Edwards supporters. They will almost always say they will support either of our candidates. (0.00 / 0)
Got any proof on that?

[ Parent ]
You skip the facts and go for the anecdote. (0.00 / 0)
That was the only anecdotal part of my posting, and why it was stated as an aside.  Nevertheless, try it yourself.  

In the meantime, I challenge you to refute the bulk of my posting.


[ Parent ]
I must admit... (0.00 / 0)
I thought you were trying to be serious(?) when you said that Edwards voters were saying they would vote for Clinton or Obama... Clinton being the Corporate Queen a'all and I kinda lost interest in reading the the rest... but I will continue reading.

[ Parent ]
Ok ... all well and good... (0.00 / 0)
...but really life isn't this predictable.

Stick an October surprise in  and all those numbers go poof...


[ Parent ]
The republican primary was over by the time Ohio came along (0.00 / 0)
Ohio has a semi-open primary system.  Therefore, it's hardly surprising that more people voted in the dem primary than in the rep primary.

[ Parent ]
WRONG! (0.00 / 0)
The Republicans had three candidates in Ohio:  McCain, Huckabee, and Paul.  I used Ohio as one of my examples because of this.  I.e., Republicans still had more of an interest in their own party, rather than influencing the Democratic outcome.


[ Parent ]
The Republians NOMINALLY had three candidates (4.00 / 1)
But the delegate math was absurd--Huckabee needed to go on a massive multi state sweep for the rest of the primary season in order to secure the nomination.  There was no way that a non-McCain victory was going to happen, with the lack of superdelegates, winner take-all primaries, and the press treating the Republican constest as essentially over.  I live in texas, and while I saw numerous Obama and Clinton ads, I saw almost nothing for the Republicans.  

[ Parent ]
Do not ignore the thrust of my argument! (0.00 / 0)
Running far afield, analyzing suppositions about the internal machinations of the Republican race, does not blunt what I am saying.

On a state by state basis, where voting primaries were held, look at the total Republican count.  Next, look at the individual and total Democratic counts.  Notice that a Republican win in the Presidential election would require not merely a Republican turnout many times over the primary turnouts, it would also require a very high percentage of progressives to stay home and/or vote with the neocons.

That is what I challenge to be refuted or explained by any person or group who insists that either Obama or Clinton is a liability.

The only thing I say that isn't based on fact, is that my experiences and conversations (anecdotal evidence) reveal that the unelectable argument is brought up much more often by Obama supporter than Clinton supporters (temporarily setting aside the mainstream media and necons).

Would you care to gather some anecdotal evidence yourself?  Pick some blogs (or non-MSM0, any blogs (or non-MSM), and do some counting yourself -- whether it is the main articles or comments.  I'm not suggesting that this is would be a scientific study, but it surely would demonstrate a trend.


[ Parent ]
Sorry, but your argument is insufficient (0.00 / 0)
We are justifiably proud of the Democratic primary turnout, and it is likely to be an indication of enthusiasm in November. HOWEVER, Primaries can't predicate actual turnout, only a generalized eagerness to vote.

[ Parent ]
No. The unelectable issue argument is unsupported! (0.00 / 0)
I am not attempting to predict the makeup of the Presidential election turnout.  

I am pointing out what it would take for progressives to lose -- mind boggling increases in Republican numbers and defections/absences of Democratic numbers.

So far, the unelectable argument has been insufficient -- pulled out of thin air.  Further, it appears that the majority of proponents of this argument come mainly from the media and neocons.  In the main, he progressives that parrot it, appear to be from the Obama camp.

I proposed a challenge, 'go to blogs & non-MSM.'  You might even start with this comment set.  Mate!


[ Parent ]
No. (0.00 / 0)
You proffer Dem primary turnout numbers as evidence of Dem turnout in the general, or at least as evidence of raw numbers of Dems.  Existing data from past elections show that this correlation is specious at best.  

The Dems have a solid advantage this year, because Dem self-id is increasing, Bush is unpopular, and McCain is vulnerable.  But none of this has to do with primary turnout.  And it's still going to take a hell of a lot of work from a lot of people to take down McCain.  


[ Parent ]
what I mean (0.00 / 0)
the fact that your conclusion may have truth value associated with it does not imply that your supporting arguments are valid.

[ Parent ]
Simply put. (0.00 / 0)
My conclusion is that the unelectable issue is a bullshit argument.

My antecedents demonstrate that a vote swing favoring a Republican win, for any reasons, demands that, not only they increase their numbers mightily, but that large numbers of Democrats must defect or fail to vote for the party.

My aside is a related, but different, conclusion based on anecdotal evidence that seems to be reflected in the comments on this very page.

With that being said, the primary contest should continue and be based on real issues and proposed solutions.


[ Parent ]
Chris is affirmed. (0.00 / 0)
Man does this thread support Chris's argument that the next few months will be agony.  

One point of departure with Chris, however.  The racial dynamic at play goes far beyond mere arguments of electability.  A new generation of black youth have been forcefully alerted that the racist underbelly of the American empire is alive and well.  Frankly, I don't know where that will lead, but it seems always to lead to places white folks don't expect.


Advice from my father (4.00 / 2)
So my parents came over to our house for Easter dinner yesterday.  My husband and I support Obama, my mom likes Clinton but humors us (ha ha), my dad doesn't talk politics much.

So in the middle of dinner he makes the grand statement:

You know who I am supporting in the race?.....any Democrat running against the Republicans in the fall.  I am so sick of the Republican Party...and its not just Bush, its all of them, the whole party, they have screwed this country so badly I am voting for the Democrats no matter who it is!

My dad is retired military, history teacher, lifelong Republican.  

The rest of us just looked at each other and felt the mood change.  Hell yeah!  Get the bastards and throw them out.  We might be different generations/experiences, but we know who the real enemy is....and it ain't Clinton or Obama.  

I just wish people on the the internets could be as rational about the situation as my dad......(I so never thought I would ever write that).


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