If Obama And Clinton Were White Dudes Thread

by: Chris Bowers

Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 18:15


During 2008, I have sometimes heard a variation on the following question: who would you vote for if both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama were white men? In other words, are you supporting or not supporting one of the two Democratic candidates because of their gender and / or ethnicity? Typically, my first reaction is to say that of course I would still support Obama, since none of the reasons I give for supporting him are based on the demographic groups he represents. However, upon further thought, I think that if both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama were white men, I might actually vote for Hillary Clinton. Here's why:
  • If Hillary Clinton was a man, that would mean that (s)he is the homosexual life partner of a former President of the United States. That's pretty cool. I can get behind that breaking that barrier.

  • If Barack Obama was a white man, then what's up with his Kenyan family? Feels kinda colonial. Clearly, being married to an African-American woman shows that he is open to other cultures, but something feels off about a white American having an 90-year old Kenyan grandmother. Wouldn't that have happened while the British were still occupying the country?

So, there's a deep thought for a Friday evening. Maybe I would vote different if both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama were white dudes. How about you?

Chris Bowers :: If Obama And Clinton Were White Dudes Thread

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If Obama And Clinton Were White Dudes Thread | 25 comments
but in that case (4.00 / 3)
wouldn't the barrier already have been broken?

New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.
and my semi-serious answer (0.00 / 0)
I liked Edwards in 2004 and Obama in 2008, so apparently I'd be voting for the white man who hired David Axelrod.

New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.
Hm, that would put you at loggerheads... (0.00 / 0)
...with the people on this site who liked Dean in 2004 and Edwards in 2008, and therefore apparently want to vote for the person who hired Joe Trippi :)
[ Parent ]
Heh - nice snark for the counter-factuals (0.00 / 0)
Since we are looking at Pennsylvania, a little Bruce - Streets of Philadelphia -
well... (0.00 / 0)
...slightly seriously....if Hillary were a white dude, she'd pretty much be Joe Biden without the long record and establishment muscle. If Obama were a white dude, he'd be at least as good as 1992 Bill Clinton and maybe as good as the 1968 Bobby Kennedy (that was before my political time), so I think my choice would be the same.
I think if Hillary were a white dude... (0.00 / 0)
she'd be more like Hubert Humphrey.  If Obama were a white guy, you'd have to give him props for having enough soul to go to Trinity United Church of Christ.  I'd still vote for Obama.
[ Parent ]
besides (0.00 / 0)
what's more pathetic than the mental image of Hubert Humphrey crying?
[ Parent ]
Another difference between male!Hillary and Biden (4.00 / 1)
(S)He'd also lack the funny.
[ Parent ]
Plus (4.00 / 1)
You have to give respect to a dude with the balls to wear this jacket to a debate in Texas of all places.  Stylish and unconventional, there's a lot to be said for male!Hillary Clinton's eschewing the safe suit-tie combo that even Barack Obama found himself adopting.
Ha Ha! (0.00 / 0)
good point.
[ Parent ]
They are who they are (0.00 / 0)
Great points, all.  I gotta agree that if Hillary were a guy in your scenario the gay barrier was clearly broken.  Of course, it could be that Bill was a woman, so perhaps not.

But what the heck, let's try this question out seriously.

Clearly, as this shows, in the case of Clinton you can't separate her from her gender because her roll as first lady goes to the very heart of her candidacy.  If all s/he had was her 7 years in congress I'm not sure people would be all that attracted to her/him.  Would s/he really stand out?

Obama would clearly still stand out; nothing about his 2002 speech would be different, for example.  But would his calls for unity resonate without his bi-racial background?  As the "wine track" candidate, one would assume he'd lose to the "beer track" candidate.  Statistically, it is the wine track + black vote that puts him over the top.  As a wine track kinda guy, it wouldn't change my vote, but I doubt he'd be winning.

On the other hand, he wouldn't be up against the ex-first lady, either, so perhaps I'm wrong.

But the bottom line is you really can't pull their identity away from them without making up other details.  

But if you could subtract gender and race... (4.00 / 1)
Which I often wish we could do - especially when every critic of Obama's is accused of being racist, and every critic of Clinton's a misogynist, then the equation becomes much easier. Two senators, X and Y, with law backgrounds (except on worked for a corporate law firm, and the other was a grass roots activist). X voted for AUMF. Y spoke out against the war in Iraq. X funded a campaign the old way with high value donors. Y funded it with micro donations and a wider activist base. X says they will work the government machine. Y says they will change it... and so on.

The decision is a whole lot easier don't you think? And a whole lot less vitriolic. Though the identity politics of race and gender should never be overlooked, politics is not just symbolic gesture - it's a rational choice. And if that choice is reduced to the political restitution between black/white male/female, the net effect is that we all should be rooting for Condi Rice.

[ Parent ]
Of Course (0.00 / 0)
X is mid-way through their second senate term while y is just in his first and x took some hard hits for tackling issues like universal health care while y voted present on a whole range of issues.

But hey this is all hypothetical right????

[ Parent ]
Yup (0.00 / 0)
And following your hypothetical

x has six years of legislative experience
y has ten years of legislative experience

the attendance at both senates is roughly equal

keep going....

[ Parent ]
Wait, you've just put it all into perspective for me! (4.00 / 2)
If Obama was a white guy who opposed the war and was talking about changing the system, the media would already have killed him.

And Hillary would have been unremarkable, since half the reason she was so hated in the first place was that she failed to change her maiden name when she got married.

So the current race would be between... Chris Dodd and Joe Biden.  Oh, God, the media mostly likes Biden...

All of a sudden the current nightmare doesn't look nearly so bad.

More liberal media at The Sideshow

[ Parent ]
Stay with Bill? (0.00 / 0)
So if Hillary were male, why would he remain married to a guy who cheated with women? (Wouldn't he have legitimate doubts about his spouse's sexuality?) And why would he stay with the guy who signed legislation that nullified their own marriage in at least 46 states? Would the right wing really have tried to impeach a homosexual guy for having sex with the opposite gender?

Also, that's some mighty freaky medical science going on for Mr. Hillary to give birth to Chelsea and for Bill to be the father. I'd like to find out more about that incredible scientific breakthrough. Did NIH fund the research?

And would the right wing, in its darkest corners, really be trying to smear Hillary as being attracted to women?

Would David Geffen and Andrew Sullivan, among others, support Hillary for President?

duh (0.00 / 0)
Also, that's some mighty freaky medical science going on for Mr. Hillary to give birth to Chelsea and for Bill to be the father.

As John McCain reminds us, Janet Reno is Chelsea's father.  That guy is so funny.  

[ Parent ]
Hello? Iraq? (0.00 / 0)
If they were both white men, then Barack Obama would still be the more charismatic candidate who was right on Iraq, who doesn't outright lie about his experience, who doesn't praise John McCain, who the depressed conservative base of the Republican party hasn't been salivating about running against for 12 years, and who doesn't represent business as usual in Washington. So I would still be for him every bit as much as I am now.
Yup (4.00 / 1)
Separating all that stuff Chris mentions, which is irrelevant to the essential question, it's obvious who the better offering is.  The one who speaks in coherent sentences, who thinks his audiences can use the lessons of history, who keeps his temper even, who thinks before he speaks, who is aware of how hard change is going to be and how necessary.

Who would probably be trying to create a fairer society whether he was all one color or half of each.

[ Parent ]
Very funny...but I'll offer a serious answer. (0.00 / 0)
I'd pick Obama.

Because she voted to approve the Iraq War and he opposed it.

Plus, I won't vote for any candidate whose health-care plan involves "universal mandates" unless they state right off the top what the bottom-line lowest cost that each of us would be required by law to pay.  Saying "yes, but I'll make it affordable, trust me" while refusing to give any details doesn't fly with me.

And skin color or genitalia have nothing to do with it.
 

Somehow I missed this post earlier (0.00 / 0)
I would stick with Obama. One of these candidates is "crashing the gate" and the other is not. One of these candidates voted for the AUMF and the other did not. One of these candidates energized the elusive youth vote like no other politician in history, and the other did not. Race and class are appealing herrings, but both are red.  

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra
What if I won the lottery (0.00 / 0)
While were at it, what if both were Black woman? What if both were Black men or Both were half latino and half asian? Why did you select White men? If that were the case most likely they'd also be repuglicans wouldn't they.
LOL (0.00 / 0)
Chris, that is hilarious.  Good one.

Can you imagine what would happen to a male politician who cried before a major primary, like Clinton did in New Hampshire?  Their career would be over.

In fact, male politicians are quite often described as (4.00 / 1)
getting "misty-eyed," which was about the extent of Hillary's "crying."
[ Parent ]
If Hillary Clinton were not Bill Clinton's wife (0.00 / 0)
I doubt (s)he'd even be in the US Senate.

I suspect Obama would have the same job if he were not black.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."

If Obama And Clinton Were White Dudes Thread | 25 comments
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