National Popular Vote Plan With A Twist: A 3-State Solution

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 16:26


I've been a fan of the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact, a way to get around the electoral college by simply getting enough states to elect a President with their Electoral College votes to agree to all cast their electoral votes for the winner of the national popular vote.  Normally, it's thought of in terms of getting enough states to total 270 electoral votes.

This proposal has tremendous latent appeal, as the Electoral College has become quite unpopular of late.  But it hasn't progressed as quickly as many, such as I, might have hoped.

One problem, for example, is that it's easily demogoged.  For example, when Arnold Schwarzenegger vetoed the California NPV compact bill, he said:

"It disregards the will of a majority of Californians" [and] "is counter to the tradition of our great nation which honor states rights and the unique pride and identity of each state."

You can always count on the Gropenator for a pompous braindead quip.  But, then, there's no shortage of others with similar deficits.  Add to that the reluctance of battleground states to reduce their importance, and the slow progress so far becomes quite understandable.

Now, however, U.C. Davis law professor and Findlaw.com columnit Vikram David Amar has advanced a radically modified proposal that just might work.  Instead of relying on enough state to cast 270 votes, why not rely on a handful of key states--perhaps as few as just three==that no one can win without?  His model suggestion is Ohio, Virginia and Florida, but the precise identity of the states is less important than the concept.

He lists three barriers to the NPV compact, and argues that the 3-state solution could substantially reduce all three.  Read about it on the flip....

Paul Rosenberg :: National Popular Vote Plan With A Twist: A 3-State Solution
Obviously, such a proposal would significantly alter electability arguments, since it would no longer be about winning certain types of voters in certain specific states, and so Amar mixes in a little discussion of the Democratic primary process as well.  Those wanting to read about that should definitely check the original out. Here, I just want to focus on the barriers mentioned and how they would be affected:

(1) The Efficacy Barrier--Reduced

One reason a given state might insist on involvement by a substantial number of other states before committing is that the particular state in question wants to be sure that its actions will accomplish the desired effect of moving to a national popular election - and thus forcing Presidential candidates to campaign for all votes nationally, regardless of how "in play" any given state is....

But given the (seemingly undisputed) demographic/partisan reality in 2008, as to which states are overwhelmingly likely to be determinative battleground states, a move by Florida, Ohio and Virginia together to give their electoral college votes to the national popular vote winner would create almost the same kind of complete certainty: No candidate could hope to win the White House without getting the electoral college votes of at least one of those states. So coordinated action by these three states alone (and perhaps even a two-state subset of these) would be sufficient.

This is an especially important point.  It takes a long time to get a lot of states to pass something, unless you're like the beef lobby.  Getting just three specific states to pass something is obviously a lot more doable--and each of the three states would know that.

(2) The In-State Un-Popularity Problem--Reduced

There is also a second reason a state might rationally be reluctant to allocate its electoral college votes to the national popular vote winner. The reason is that the national vote winner may be unpopular in that state (and lose there by a significant margin)....

But my present focus on present-day Ohio, Virginia and Florida answers that problem. These three states are, as noted above, considered by virtually everyone to be "in play" for Election Day 2008 - that is, their voters are relatively equally divided between the two major parties and their candidates. So even if, say, Ohio (by pledging to cast its electoral college votes for the national vote winner) ended up giving the Presidency to someone who lost in the state, any loss there would have been by a pretty small margin.

This is largely a perceptual problem, but Amar is right, that it would diminish the perception to have the states involved all be battleground states.

(3) The Sacrifice Of Current Relevance Problem

A third and related reason why a state might be reluctant to act is that acting could involve non-trivial sacrifice. Take Ohio, for example. If Ohio were to allocate its electors for the national popular vote winner, Ohio would be making the question of who wins the most votes in Ohio, in particular, less relevant than it is under the current scheme....

But if, somehow, people in just a small number of states like Ohio could be convinced that their sacrifice, while historically momentous, would not be so great in tangible terms, or is worth the cost, then meaningful reform could be attained with much less national energy that might be supposed.

This is the least convincing.  Indeed, it seems clear that the states most willing--even eager--to have such a change are those that don't get attention now--meaning those that aren't battleground states.  But this logic cross-cuts with #2.

So, what we have here is a tantalizing situation, where the possibility seems to have grown much closer--but is still not well within reach.


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Disinclined to support this (4.00 / 2)
Ohio has special needs and interests not reflected by voters in other states. To put it bluntly, I don't want NAFTA being defused as a volatile issue. It would be a disservice to Ohio voters to assume that their interests are best served by a national majority. That goes for any state.

A better way to move in the same direction -- making the electoral college vote better reflect the popular vote -- would be to expand the number of congressional representatives beyond the arbitrary 435 limit to a number closer to the one-per-thirty-thousand framework envisioned in the Constitution.

If we had the same proportional number of representatives today that we did until 1910, that would make for about 10,000 members of the House of Representatives. That would also mean over 10,100 electors deciding the presidential contest, a far more accurate reflection of the popular will.

VISA is Hungry! http://www.funnyordie.com/vide...


I agree (0.00 / 0)
I've always said that we need bigger government.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
It would also be the largest legislature in the history of Earth (0.00 / 0)
By over ten times.  Backroom cloak and dagger would get ridiculous, as individual congresspeople would become completely faceless.  Not to mention that floor debates would become completely unmanageable.  The Capitol building would have to become a sports stadium just to seat everyone.  Increasing the size of Congress would certainly help, but it's not the end all.

Also, we'd still have the same swing state problem, we just would be diluting the importance of states like Wyoming and Idaho (which is good, because the current EC has a built-in Republican gerrymander)


[ Parent ]
Size of the House... (0.00 / 0)
would only need to be 655 (based on 2000 Census data) to give equal weight to everyone's votes - from Wyoming to California to Montana (the most underrepresented state). See "Interstate Malapportionment of the US House" in Perspective on Politics March 2008 for the full article.  

[ Parent ]
Why would these states give up their influence? (0.00 / 0)
I think that Amar's third reason for why states would balk at going for NPV is probably the strongest reason for why it won't work.  He writes, "Perhaps the NPV plan is possible only if to the extent that there are enough states who are not in play who are have reasons, and are willing, to sign on."  I don't expect battleground states to give up their centrality anymore than I expect Iowa and New Hampshire to give up their gatekeeper roles in the presidential nomination business.

It's quite possible that NPV would be most helped by the success of a candidate running a Clintonian "big states matter" campaign by ratcheting up the resentment of "states that don't matter" and that a Dean/Obama "50-state strategy" campaign dampens the interest in NPV by making everyone feel important.

Personally, I think the NPV is a bit silly. If you have enough support to get enough states to pass it, then you should have enough support to actually amend the Constitution.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


No, Amending the Constitution Is A Much Higher Bar (0.00 / 0)
I think the original proposal is probably the most feasible, because the states with disproporationate power will not give it up.  We just need to get rid of the total dunderheads like the Gropenator.

I'm thinking, mebbe plague.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Amending the constitution = 3/4 of the states (0.00 / 0)
Passing the NPV = enough states to constitute 270 electoral votes, roughly a simple majority of states (actually less, considering that NY has already passed it, and CA probably will once term limits bring about Ahnold's Judgment Day).  The latter is much easier.

[ Parent ]
Really, though (0.00 / 0)
Don't you think that if you can pass NPV in enough states, then you should be at least reasonably close in getting support for changing the Constitution in the necessary 3/4?  NPV's utility lies in putting constitutional change on the table.  It just strikes me as a silly end-run around the Constitution on a technicality if it actually gets enacted.



Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
You've Got It Backwards (0.00 / 0)
Our Constitution is an odd mixture of noble principles broadly stated and narrowly construed deals to get it passed in the first place.  Some of those deals are wildly at odds with the noble principes, and most of those were connected to slavery in one way or another.  Que Leonard Cohen:

Everybody knows the deal is rotten
Old black Joe's still picking cotton
For your ribbons and bows
Everybody knows

Simply put, democracy was unthinkable in a semi-slaveocracy, and we are still dealing with the fallout of that.  The electoral college is part of that set of deals, and it is highly anti-democratic.  So, too, is the Constitutional Amendment system.  But the NPV compact is an elegant work-around that only requires overcoming relatively minor anti-democratic barriers, such as Herr Gropinator.  Ergo, it's the way to go for folks what believes in democracy.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
i have no problem with pragmatic deals (0.00 / 0)
I don't know why you seem to think noble principles and compromises make for an odd mixture.  It all makes sense considering the context.  I think that you misunderstand the nature of some of that context by trying to fit all of U.S. history into a grand narrative of democratization and its opponents. (And, in fact, the Founding Fathers thought that the Electoral College gave more power to the people than the competing proposal of a president chosen by the national legislature.)

Some of the compromises of the Constitution were about finding a new balance of power somewhere between the weak confederacy of the old Articles and the consolidation of the various states into a nation.  The new Constitution chose neither confederacy nor consolidation, but a middle path which divided power between the national government and the various states.  The Electoral College, emphasizing that the separateness of the states, was one of these compromises.

I argue that the context still exists to some degree unless you want to make the argument that state lines are archaic and need to be abolished.  Change on something as fundamental as this should be addressed nationally through working to amend the Constitution rather than slapping a quick-fix bandage on the problem through a legal technicality.  Part of that is because I'm more process-oriented than outcome-oriented, but I also believe that this is one of several issues that need to be addressed together regarding election reform and related matters.  So while I agree that the Electoral College should be changed or abolished (among other reasons, one flaw is that it was conceived by strangely naive statesmen who seemed to think that political parties would not exist), I disagree on how you should get from point A to point B.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
I'm Not Opposed To Pragmatic Deals Per Se (0.00 / 0)
Of course I realize that they're necessary.  Our founding problem was two-fold: (1) A lot of the pragmatic deal-making was directly or indirectly implicated in preserving slavery.  Anything involving the power of states, the balance of sectional powers, etc. fell into that category, and this includes the Electoral College, as well as the Senate. (2) Our pragmatic deals were hard-wired into an excessively static constitutional structure, that has some extremely anti-democratic features in it.

These two factors leave me with zero sympathy for the way the Electoral College functions.  The NPV compact is a perfectly legal, legit method to disable the anti-democratic impact of the Electoral College.

My only regret is that such easy means are not available for other such anti-Democratic features.  Such as, for example, the Senate--which is not just anti-Democratic, but racist, to boot.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
From my perspective (0.00 / 0)
I think that the Constitution still would have included the Electoral College (and the Senate even) if slavery was a non-issue.  The Electoral College strikes me as a particularly Enlightenment-influenced idea, where the Founding Fathers hoped to create a reasoned, deliberative selection of a president by directly-elected representatives of the people who have no ties to the federal government.  It's as if they wanted to create a third legislative body whose sole power is to pick an executive.  The Founding Fathers seemed to think they were rather clever in coming up with this artifice.

As for an excessively static constitutional structure, well, I do support some changes such as allowing ratification by referendum, but then I also think that there is a strong chance that if reforms are passed anytime soon which make it easier to amend the constitution, then the first new amendment will probably be one banning gay marriage.

I agree that NPV is legal, but I'm not sure that I consider it legit.  I feel about it a bit like I feel about the Texas redistricting scheme.  Delay's plan was legal (at least in part and illegal in some implementation), but the whole thing has a skeezy feel to me.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
Bad Analogy (0.00 / 0)
NPV is the exact opposite of DeLay's scheme.  It's pro-democratic, his was anti-democratic.  "Standard" is not always equivilent to "legit."

As for your deeper point, I agree that something similar might well have existed without slavery.  It's just that we can't readily disentagle these institutions from that legacy, since slavery was such a biggie in their deliberations, despite their reluctance to spell it out so clearly.  My point in reminding folks is not to delegitimize everything in a blanket fashion, but to problematize it, as they say in the trade.

I also share your misgivings about what might happen if we tinker with things improperly.  Getting deliberative liberal democracy right is not a simple task.  But there are better models out there than the one we have, in part because others have learned from our shortcomings and mistakes better than we have ourselves.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
just get rid of the electoral college if you want to get rid of it (0.00 / 0)
Instead of trying to get multiple state legislatures to pass a plan that makes the vote in their state irrelevant (something they are highly unlikely to do), wouldn't it be easier just to convince Congress to pass a Constitutional amendment to abolish the electoral college? I'm not sure why it didn't happen already after the debacle in 2000.

Not Really (0.00 / 0)
The best way to go is to first target large states that usually aren't in play sign onto the compact.  (New York, California, Texas, etc.) They have nothing to lose and everything to gain. The Gropenator's idiot move was the biggest setback so far on this score, since California could have given real momentum to it.

(Perhaps he was thinking that by blocking it, he would give the GOP another chance to run its "let's steal 20 EVs" scam.  Yeah, that's the ticket!)

A Constitutional Amendment isn't just passed by Congress.  It has to be ratified by the states.  MORE states than would have to pass the NPV compact.

Get it?

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Umm (4.00 / 2)
Amending the Constitution takes more than "Congress passing a Constitutional amendment"...

2/3 of Congress and 3/4 of the states are required to amend. That's why we only have 17 amendments since the Bill of Rights. It ain't that easy.

What would be easier is the NPV plan which cuts out Congress and lowers the bar on how many state legislatures are needed to ratify.    


[ Parent ]
States like RI and MA woudln't be making their vote irrelevant (0.00 / 0)
they'd be making them relevant for the first time in years.  CA would get tons more attention than it currently does.  These are the states that have an incentive to pass this.

However, the problem is that the EC essentially overrepresents states like Utah, Idaho, Kansas, etc., that are Republican strongholds, while it underrepresents states like NY and CA that favor Democrats.  I have a feeling that this will get killed by the national Republican party if it actually manages to gain enough steam.


[ Parent ]
They Will TRY To Kill It (0.00 / 0)
But like the man said, "The Times They Are A-Changin'," so it should make for a very interesting fight.

I mean, the idea of having the GOP openly fighting against "one person-one vote" again... what could be better than that?

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Yes (0.00 / 0)
I really do like the idea of making them make arguments in favor of things that are inherently toxic to the populace.  I just fear them making nonsense arguments that obscure this essential point, á la what Ahnold said above.

[ Parent ]
Follow-Up Is Key (0.00 / 0)
The California Nurses Association made a laughing stock of him, and I never cease to be amazed at how the Democratic Party helped resurrect him after that.  But what's been done once can be done again.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
NPV would unfairly hurt small states (0.00 / 0)
The major problem with a National Popular Vote is it would eliminate the influence of smaller states like my own West Virginia.  The electoral college helps ensure that Presidential Candidates have to pay at least some attention to our state.  Without it larger cities would have more influence than many individual states.  

We need a system that ensures a balance to protect the interests of rural and less populated areas in conjunction with the interest of larger states and more populated geographic areas.

While imperfect, by tying the number of electors to the size of a state's Congressional delegation the Electoral College addresses this issue of balance.  A national popular vote does not.

In a good conversation everyone speaks. In a great conversation some even listen.


What About Utah, Wyoming, Rhode Island, Vermont, etc. (0.00 / 0)
there's plenty of small states that get ignored under the current system.  It's only the small swing states that get attention.

And there's not a great deal of evidence that produces much in the way of a public good. < /understatement>

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Swing states (0.00 / 0)
At least swing states are a somewhat fluid process.  It can change over time as some states are "in play" and others aren't.  We've seen that happen back and forth many times as the electoral map shifts over time.

NPV would take that option away, by focusing candidates' attention much more significantly on more populated areas.  

Heavily populated areas already get more attention.  Giving them even more at the expense of small states is unfair and ignores some fundamental principals that the United States of America were founded upon.

In a good conversation everyone speaks. In a great conversation some even listen.


[ Parent ]
Good Grief! (4.00 / 1)
All those dark urban masses might actually get listened to for a change!

We can't have that!

Not saying you're a racist, dude.  But look at it from their point of view for a little bit.  They haven't exactly been calling the shots for the last 300 years.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
No problem with cities (0.00 / 0)
I don't really appreciate the implication that I'm racist.  If you knew me, you'd know that's pretty ludicrous.

Anyway, it seems you have a problem with small states, but the fact of the matter is they are unique political subdivisions of our country.  They have to deal with federal mandates for programs like Medicaid, highways, etc.  Each state has it's own factors and interests.  

Cities are political subdivisions within states.  They're not states.

If you want to reorganize our representative form of government based solely on population then say so, but doing a back door move with 3 states making a determination that impacts 47 others is a bad idea.

Meanwhile, you seem to be forgetting that large states like California, Florida, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Texas, etc. already get a great deal of attention.  I don't see Presidential campaigns going out of their way for Montana, Wyoming, Rhode Island, Alaska, West Virginia, etc.  

Instead of questioning my motives, how about explaining how your NPV proposal would protect us from the tyranny of the majority?  Why should a candidate that only wins 3 states be elected President of 50?

I'm not saying everything's perfect with the current system, but you need to balance the interests of sparsely populated areas along with densely populated areas.

In a good conversation everyone speaks. In a great conversation some even listen.


[ Parent ]
Larger cities have more population than most smaller states (4.00 / 2)
Why shouldn't they have more influence?  Why should someone in Montana have their vote count for ten times as much as someone in New York City or San Fransisco?  The House and Senate have gone to great lenghts to protect rural interests--sadly, however, this has often meant that they support the interests of ADM over that of the family farmer.  Why do we need this archaic insanity in electing the President (which, by the way, doesn't favor rural over urban so much as it favors people in swing states over people in non-swing states)?

[ Parent ]
Large Cities Aren't States (0.00 / 0)
Accordingly they shouldn't have the same degree of influence.  We have a representative Democracy to protect us from the tyranny of the majority.

The balance of the US Senate with 2 / state, combined with the population based House of Representatives has served us well.

You need a balance, otherwise as Paul admits, only 3 states could deliver a Presidential victory.  That doesn't serve the interests of the country.

BTW, the electoral college doesn't let Montana votes "count for ten times as much as someone in New York City".  It's based on Congressional representation.

In a good conversation everyone speaks. In a great conversation some even listen.


[ Parent ]
Do the math! (4.00 / 1)
Rhode Island: 4 EV, 1,000,000 population: 250,000 people/EV
Wyoming: 3 EV, 493,782 population: 164,594 people/EV
Montana: 3 EV, 999,000 population: 333,000 people/EV
MO: 11 EV, 5,900,000 population: 536,000 people/EV
NY: 31 EV, 19,000,000 population: 613,000 people/EV
CA: 55 EV, 36,000,000 population: 654,000 people/EV

So, eight times as much is exaggeration, but it takes four times as many people to elect an elector in California than it does in Wyoming.  How is that not having your vote count for four times as much?  The math that they use is based on congressional representation, but it's math that overcounts votes from small states.

Thank god we have the constitution to protect arbitrary state borders that were defined via the arcane politics of the 1870s!  Together, the interests of Vermont and Wyoming, with their small state interests, will team up against Texas and California, with their large state interests.

And doubly so that we're so aggressively protecting rural interests, when the citizens of the inner cities are already wielding so much power in our government!

But, seriously, if we're going to take defending state's interests so seriously, why the hell do we have a series of state borders that make no sense?  And, also, it's the current system that makes three states so crucial--since winning a decisive margin in PA, OH, MO and FL, for example, is essentially the decisive factor in flipping over the whole map. That has been the strategy since at least 2000, and pretty much since 1988.  One of the best arguments for switching away from the EC is that it would force candidates to run a national campaign across the whole country, not just swing states.  


[ Parent ]
3 electors is a a fair minimum + The whole country? (0.00 / 0)
First, states have a minimum number of 3 electors and Congressional representation to set a minimum degree of influence.  That's not "over" representation, it's setting a level of equity so that the 50 states have some degree of equality with one another.

Thank God for the equal representation of the Senate or who knows what radical proposals would be presented through the House of Representatives.  Most would agree that the balance between both Houses has been a good thing.

As for the idea that NPV "would force candidates to run a national campaign across the whole country, not just swing states.", you need to check your math.  

Candidates would just need to get the most votes, not a certain number from across the country.  As a result, candidates would try to gain huge margins of victory in their strongholds.  Dems would focus a ton on California, and Republicans would focus a ton on Texas.  Most parts of the country would be virtually ignored.

In a good conversation everyone speaks. In a great conversation some even listen.


[ Parent ]
Why are states more fundmental entities than people? (4.00 / 1)
Most states in the nation are bizarre hodgepodges that were formed based on the vagaries of nineteenth century politics.  The only reason that the citizens of Maine get for times as much say in electing the president than the citizens of Massachusetts is that Congress wanted to prevent the addition of Missouri from creating an absolute majority of slave states in the Union.

Most everyone I know is way more attached to their home city than they are to their home state.  Why should Wyoming, as an entity, have some sort of equality with California in electing the President?  No other democratic country in the world uses such a system to elect their chief executive, and there's a reason for that.

If you're so concerned about 'tyranny of the majority' (which has a lot more to do with congressional legislation than the election of the president), requiring a supermajority to elect the president would make a lot more sense, really.  But what that phrase really means is that individuals recieve protections from government action, and that minority voices have the right to be heard.  Not that we overcount certain votes when electing the president.


[ Parent ]
Not More Representation - Just Minimum Representation (0.00 / 0)
I'm not asking for more representation for states, just protecting a minimum degree of input for each state and their citizens.

Your side is proposing the change therefore it should be your burden to justify a reduced role for the affected states and their citizens.

You've yet to state a clear reason why someone should be able to ignore 47 states and focus on winning 3 states by a large enough margin that they could be elected President.  

In a good conversation everyone speaks. In a great conversation some even listen.


[ Parent ]
Wyoming vs. California (0.00 / 0)
By the way, California has 55 electors.  Wyoming has 3.  That's hardly "some sort of equality with California in electing the President."



In a good conversation everyone speaks. In a great conversation some even listen.


[ Parent ]
I just randomly joined (0.00 / 0)
specifically to ask a question about this.

It sounds like an interesting idea, but what happens if one of the candidates is from one of the states used in the process? That would inflate their vote totals? Or wouldn't it?  


It Might (0.00 / 0)
But that impact would be pretty small in the grand scheme of things.  California's the largest state, and in 2004 it went for Kerry, 6,745,485 to 5,509,826--a 1.24 million voter edge.  If Kerry had been a Californian, he would have had to win California by 4.24 million--more than TRIPLE his actual margin of victor--on order to have won the popular vote.  OTOH, he could have won the electoral college with only 120,000 more votes in Ohio.  No one in California history except Earl Warren could possibly have managed that sort of a lopsided vote, and there were nowhere near that many people here when Warren was governor.  So, not very likely, to say the least.

Moreover, America has abysmally low voter turnout, compared to other countries, particularly among those with lower income.  The long-term impact of this change would be to make every vote count everywhere, which would give more players in the system a stake in raising voter turnout everywhere.  Thus, over time the differential impact of a candidate coming from a large state would tend to diminish over time.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
If you want to federalize elections, then support NPV (0.00 / 0)
The problem with all of the schemes is that you need to federalize the presidential election. Voter registration should be standardized, the list of candidates should be standardized, the vote time should be standardized - even early voting. Otherwise, some states might have a disproportionate effect on the election.

Federalize, Sure (0.00 / 0)
But I think the rationale could be much stronger.  Simply put, the right to vote should be a fundamental right of citizenship.  It's not, because of what I mentioned earlier--the deal, with slavery at its heart.

We should pass an Amendment establishing a federal right to vote, and that would lay the foundations for federal election administration.  The question of disproportionate effects is an important one, of course.  But nothing is as fundamental as realizing the right to vote, without which the idea of government by consent of the governed is simply a hollow joke.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
federalization (0.00 / 0)
Paul, while I agree with you about the need for a right to vote amendment, there also needs to be a simultaneous debate about what the right to vote means.

To federalize elections, we need to address these (and other questions). Should felons vote? Should those incarcerated vote? How do we define who is a felon? When should people vote? Should polls close at 7 (Indiana) or at 9 (New York)? Should we require early voting? Should we require same day registration? Should we allow for vote by mail? And then there are questions about qualifications for the ballot? Could there be fusion voting, IRV, or other forms of proportional voting? Also, how are the ballots organized? Should a political party be listed first? Or do we do what California does and create an alphabet for every district in the union? Who handles redistricting?

I sympathize with the push for nationalizing elections, and with a federal right to vote amendment, but all of these issues need to be worked out first before I can sign on.


[ Parent ]
Yes, There's Plenty To Debate (0.00 / 0)
But establishing a fundamental federal right, IMHO, takes precedent over everything else.  The sort of voter suppression efforts that the right is pushing now are very serious, and we need to mobilize against them.

The Supreme Court is positioning itself to start rubbing stamping a whole new wave of state-level voter-suppression measured, and we need to elevate our game to stop that.  A federal right to vote make perfect sense as the foundation for doing that.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
I'll float this idea for fighting voter suppression (0.00 / 0)
Some conservatives have pushed for a national ID card because of illegal immigration.

I'm skeptical of the law enforcement benefits touted, but I've suggested the following counter-proposal in the past.  A government-funded national ID card of some sort with the following features:

-Everyone has to get one within a year of their 18th birthday
-Every citizen who receives one is automatically registered to vote
-No one has to pay to get one or for replacement/renewal (unless they lose a ton of them)
-People above a certain age will be grandfathered in
-you are not compelled to carry one with you at all times

If you want to federalize elections, one facet of that is going to be the creation of national voter rolls, even though any sort of national voter registration database is going to cause concern for privacy advocates who will worry that it going to lead to a national ID card of some sort, whether de facto or de jure.


Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
Alexander Keyssar Has Proposed Something Like This (0.00 / 0)
He's the Harvard dude who wrote the damned book on all this, The Right to Vote: The Contested History of Democracy in the United States.

It's a reasonable, sensible approach, which naturally doesn't interest a whole lot of conservatives.  (At least that's what Keyssar told me.) But that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep putting it out every time they start going all Desparate Housewives on us.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


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