The Logic of An Obama/Edwards Ticket--"Balancing" AS Reinforcing

by: Paul Rosenberg

Thu May 15, 2008 at 17:14


For some time now, Chris has been arguing for notion of picking a Vice-Presidential candidate based on reinforcing the Presidential candidate's message, rather than balancing their politics with another candidate who can helpe consolidate the diversity of a broad coaltion.  Taking off from my earlier diary about Edwards as a possible running mate--"A Different Dream Team? Obama/Edwards"--I want to focus on what I see as a logical extension of Chris's thinking, which might at first appear contradictory to some.

Basically, I'm arguing that by choosing Edwards as his running mate--and thus balancing his ticket with someone who can appeal to the core white working-class demographic that has been Clinton's base of support--Obama can in fact reinforce what he is all about.  Let me be clear.  He will be filling a defecit, there are no two ways about it.  But many of his supporters will claim that this is only a perceived deficit.

This is at least an arguable proposition, and the choice of Edwards, over the course of the campaign, gives Obama--and Edwards--a chance to prove them right.  That's the trick that could allows Edwards to be both a "balancing" and a "reinforcing" candidate, and the end result would be a much more robust model of just what it is that Obama stands for--which is why it would be such a potent, powerful move on Obama's part.

Paul Rosenberg :: The Logic of An Obama/Edwards Ticket--"Balancing" AS Reinforcing
In his classic presentation of the "reinforcing" idea, ("On Choosing A Vice-President"). Chris wrote:

Writing about potential Vice-Presidential selections is one of the more absurd realms of political speculation. Nonetheless, I wanted to present an idea that I hope will take Democratic approaches to selecting Vice-Presidents in a different direction than we have seen in most recent elections. Specifically, rather than choosing a running mate to create balance on a ticket for the purpose of shoring up perceived weakness in the Presidential nominee, it would be best to choose a running mate whose qualities reinforce the rationale behind the candidacy of the person at the top of the ticket.

Whatever people here may think of the Clinton Presidency, I think that Clinton's selection of Al Gore was the best running mate choice a nominee from either party has made in decades. Clinton ran on a dual platform of change, arguing that the country needed a shift away from Republicans and an older generation, and that the Democratic Party needed to shift away from traditional liberalism. He was a young Democrat proposing sweeping health care reform and a shift away from a Cold War national security budget, but he was also a DLC southerner who sought to make the party more "business friendly." Further, he won the nomination in 1992 largely on the strength of southern support on Super Tuesday and an electability argument that he could do the same in the general election. So, instead of "balancing" the ticket to compensate for his flaws by, say, selecting a member of the old, northern, liberal establishment as his running mate, he picked another young, white, DLC southerner who had run a virtually identical campaign four years earlier. Selecting Al Gore reinforced the message at the center of Clinton's campaign, rather than selecting someone who would balance and compensate for the qualities that Clinton lacked.

My proposition here is that there actually were differences between the two men, but they were relatively very minor compared to what they shared.  This was immediately obvious to anyone in politics at the time, because of how it was commonly contextualized.  This was a fairly simple matter revolving around cutlural identity and geographical politics.

Similarly, I would argue, the differences between Obama and Edwards are also relatively very minor compared to what they share--but this is not immediately obvious to anyone in politics today.  Again, the reason for this is because of how our politics is contextualized, but it's due to a more complicated matter of contextualization.  It's because our politics is so cramped, so distorted, so lacking in vision, so trapped in the failures of the past, and so out of touch with the root sources of past successes.   This is essentially the same critique that the two men have shared, but they have made their critiques using different terms, different arguments, different examples, and different angles of attack.

Yet, dig down deep enough and both are saying something very similar: Our politics is deeply broken, and betrays the promise of what America should be.  The things used to divide us need to be overcome and set aside, because we have important work to do together.

Thus, I would argue, the process of campaigning and showing how similar they are would implicitly serve to recontextualize our politics, so that we come to take a new context for granted in place of the old.  And that context is the one that I just described above--the context that Obama and Edwards both share.  In the process of doing this, the perceived weaknesses of both will significantly diminish--though of coruse Obama's perceived weaknesses are the most important.

Take, for example the sense that Obama is detached from and lacks sympathy for white working class voters, as epoitomized by his "bitter" remarks/  The problem, for Obama, was not what he said, but rather where he said it--a San Francisco fundraiser--and the detached manner in which he said it.

Pair this perceived weakness with the chief knock against Edwards this time around from the non-terminally trivial part of the media:  He's just so angry! What happened to the optimistic John Edwards that we used to know?  This is, in effect the explanation that the Des Moines Register gave in not endorsing Edwards this year, while they did endorse him in 2004.  Of course the answer the the Des Moines Register's question is quite simple: What happened to Edwards was four more years of the Bush/Cheney Regime.  What happened was not just four more years of Iraq. What happened was also Terri Schiavo, Cindy Sheehan, Katrina, the NSL and US Attorney scandals, the sub-prime mortgage meltdown, and much, much more.  Seriously.

What happened to John Edwards was simply that he was paying attention.  And his intense passion is evidence of that.

Thus, Obama's detachment in speaking of working class bitterness is reflected in John Edwards passion in articulating that very same bitterness.  Their fundamnetal attitudes about the bitterness are quite similar--they see that bitterness as quite well justified. They see it as reflecting a legitimate grievance--and not just the grievance of a special interest, or a specific subgroup of Americans.  No, they see it as but one specific expression of a growing universal awareness of a universal failure.

It is realatively easy to caricature and mischaracterize each of these men individually.  But you bring them together, and place them in dialogue with one another--or simply let them sing a duet about how they see the world,--and suddenly it is much, much harder to drown out the truth of what they are saying with the out-of-context-gotcha-soundbite routine.

This is just one example--albeit a very significant one.  But the principle has a much, much wider application.  Obama and Edwards are like two talented singers, each of which has remarkable gifts, remarkable strengths, but you put them together, and you discover they have hidden gifts, hidden strengths you never realized were there before, because they draw those hidden strengths out of one another.

Of course, there is no way for me to prove this analogy.  We can only know by hearing them sing together.  But I think that the potential is very clearly there, for anyone who has eyes to see, ears to hear, and hopes to nurture for a brand new day in our nation's history.

[Update: Circa 3:40 PST] I've got to go to work for an editorial meeting, so I'll be out of the conversation for about an hour and a half to two hours, with just a quick peek from work where the computers are dicey.  So those of you who grok my srgument, I'd appreciate it if you could take up some slack for me.


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As much as I like John Edwards, three time loser sorry to say (4.00 / 1)
And that CAN'T be put on the ticket.

Nothing against this post, but there are simply forces and circumstances you aren't taking into account.  


Thank You For Sharing, David Broder (3.60 / 10)
Are you and the nice Senator McCain ready for your warm milks?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Sorry, it's just the way it is (0.00 / 0)
I understand and sympathize with your snark and your frustration - but we have to deal with things as they are.

[ Parent ]
I AM Dealing With Things As They Are (4.00 / 3)
Hence, my snark.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
No Paul (4.00 / 2)
1.You don't deal with the "perceived loser" tag at all.
b.You don't deal with the effect this would have on the MSM.
c.You don't deal with the "didn't we already vote him off the island for the Vice-President last time?  What about this whole CHANGE dynamic, and they are coming at me with the same VP choice?"

You aren't dealing with the world as it is, but as how you want it to be.



[ Parent ]
Change (4.00 / 2)
There are more ways to present a change theme than to have changes in the ticket. One of the few things the media has understood in this campaign is that Edwards's message was about change just as Obama's is. They realized he was close to Obama (or Obama was close to him) than was Clinton. A distinction that Edwards himself sought to cultivate ("remember corporate Democrat for a corporate republican"?).

[ Parent ]
Possibly the case could be made (0.00 / 0)
Still thing it wouldn't overshadow the optics, but would be great if it did.

[ Parent ]
I would like to see Edwards as VP but I don't think it would add all that much to the ticket. (0.00 / 0)
I would certainly love to see a solid progressive like Edwards as vice-President. At the same time you can't outright dismiss the "former loser" tag. I think this tag is way more damaging to candidates than most analyst realize. Sometime about Americans not liking losers or something. Obviously it isn't universal but the sentiment exists.

But I do agree he would be a good VP and a good balance and would help Obama more of an effective President.

And quite honestly I think Obama is so far ahead of McCain in charisma and appeal that it really doesn't matter who either of them choose as VP, Obama will win no matter what. This could be a case for choosing someone to "balance" instead of someone to "enhance."

End this war. Stop John McCain. Cindy McCain is filthy rich.


[ Parent ]
Message, not messenger (4.00 / 2)
At one level, no one cares who the VP is.  The question is, what will the VP choose say about Obama.  How will the VP choose alter the perception of Obama?

The problem with the balance approach is it tends to emphasize the nominees weakness more than cover for it.  The goal of the reinforcing VP is to push the nominee's strength and make that nominee appear better than s/he does in solo.

Paul is suggesting that both the compare and contrast of Obama to Edwards helps Obama.  They compare well, both pushing for change and uniting the country.  

Paul suggests the contrast also works in Obama's favor, as Edwards points out all that is wrong with the country while Obama takes the optimistic approach.  This simultaneously makes Obama appear more optimistic and positive while adding weight to the actual argument for change, pointing out the very specifics that must be improved.

Edwards is Two Americas, Obama is One America, which was always the goal implied by the Two Americas speech in the first place.

I'm not 100% sure I buy this, but this is the point Paul is trying to make.


[ Parent ]
I choice choose (0.00 / 0)
or something not like that.  Where's my edit button?

[ Parent ]
God I wish they allowed us to have one. Sure there would be some idiocy-scrubbing but they could add a little note at the bottom that says it was edited. n/t (0.00 / 0)


End this war. Stop John McCain. Cindy McCain is filthy rich.

[ Parent ]
This is disappointing coming from you (0.00 / 0)
Hillary Clinton has been winning exactly those kinds of voters in addition to women voters as well.  

I admire John Edwards and the work he's done on issues of poverty and class....I would have happily accepted the outcome if he, instead of Hillary was to be the nominee.....but he dropped out of the election because he couldn't begin to get enough votes.....while she continued and has received almost as many votes as Barack Obama.

Ther has been enormous anger generated in this campaign... a lot of it because of the enormous neglect of the rampant sexism which has infected so much of the attitude toward Hillary Clinton....Obama has benefitted greatly from the furor directed at the her for racial comments which weren't racial comments...yet he has been silent when one horrible sexist analogy after another is thrown at her. Rep Steve Chen of Tenn. likened her to that Glenn Close in Fatal Strraction....the epitome of a sexist movie. This blog hasn't done that...but then it hasn't expended any effort to counter it either.

I don't think you realize how disrespectful this is to her accomplishments, her rapport with the very voters you think Edwards can get....

Almost everything you cite in terms of Edwards she has accomplished as well....and she has many more millons supporting her ....who will not be assuaged by picking Edwards.  

This is not just about putting a woman on the ticket though the breakthrough importance of that has been discounted by most political blogs.....this is putting a woman on the ticket who will help him win by bringing her voters to the polls and who as VP will actually pull him to the left if the Democrats gain the presidency.

On a personal level do I think Obama wants her on the ticket? ...I think not...he's not that big a person...if he does then my opinion of him will go up because he will have gone beyond his own persoanl pique as crytalized by his NH comment "Oh, you're nice enough, Hillary".....even my Obama supporting, male, biracial friends see that in him.

Picking her as VP would show that he can rise above himself. Hillary Clinton is the beer track candiate and the workingclass hero.

And I am disappointed that someone with your judgement would dismiss her as something to be tossed aside.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
You Are Totally Missing My Argument Here (4.00 / 3)
In fact, you are totally missing Chris's argument, of which mine is simply an extension.

To recapitulate:

Chris said that "balancing" a candidate is a sign of weakness, it's much stronger to choose a running-mate who is reinforcing.

I extended that to say, "unless the 'balancing' actually serves to draw out additional sources of strength, so that it actually turns out to be reinforcing."

You are saying, "why doesn't Obama seek balance?"

Chris has already answered that.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Whether I agree with Chris's point totally or not (0.00 / 0)
And I think his point was well taken in terms of Clinton and Gore...I think Hillary Clinton is like John Edwards in terms of policy, substance and attitude. Edwards appeals to white working class voters, so does she. Edwards cares passionately about working and poor Americans so does she.

Edwards's father worked in a mill, she took a job one summer working on as assemblyline gutting fish.  I know how this affects your world view...I worked on a mass production line.  It makes you see the world in a differnt way....you can see th eworld from oothers' eyes.

Obama promises change but she knows how to execute it.  

In that sense she would  make his promises real...which frankly I don't think he 1. knows what to do to make them real nor 2. do I think he would be as good as she at actually executing meaningful change and not just change for show which either does nothing or makes things worse.

I think she both balances and reenforces him.

Besides you should choose someone who can be president and she meets that criterion.

You are very thoughtful so please take this in a spirit I offer it....kindly meant.. though you may not realize...ignoring woman's accomplishment, not including them in the consideration is not blatant sexism...just the low level hum of sexism.  Colin Powell would never have been a general if the Army hadn't realized they needed to make sure that blacks were considered.  

too much of this campaign season has seen the roar of sexism....trashing, sneering, vicious sexist comments and then ignoring them.  This blog waded in when they thought they saw racism....David Sirota sees racism everywhere...but were quiet when sexism just keep rearing it head.

Dismissing her is just more quietly acceding to that.  I hope you think about that.



"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
where Clinton and Obama differ (4.00 / 2)
is on two of the main focuses of his campaign:

1. campaign finance- Obama has really pushed on the small donor/people powered campaign. Clinton has been largely financed by big money contributors. Edwards was going to take public financing before he dropped out.

2. Iraq authorization/Kyl-Lieberman
Obama has campaigned heavily on the foreign policy judgement in regards to authorizing the Iraq war and more recently opposed Kyl-Lieberman (although he missed the vote). Clinton doesn't think she made a mistake in voting for the Iraq war.  
Edwards has admitted that he made a mistake in voting for the Iraq war. I assume Paul thinks that this is enough to help re-enforce one of the themes of Obamas candidacy, although I would disagree with that.

So I think that Clinton doesn't really fit with the re-enforcing theme.

and Deb, i would be surprised if anyone took your comments any other way than how they were meant.  :)


[ Parent ]
Sexism (0.00 / 0)
It is actually pretty rare for the second place candidate to get the VP nod, so I don't think there is any real reason to think choosing someone other than Clinton is a direct assault on her or particularly sexist.  And personally I think the problems of putting Clinton in the VP slot outweigh the advantages.

But I do get that to many people, particularly many women, the concept of a woman getting this close to the presidency and then failing, particularly to someone that everyone will agree is less experienced, is heartbreaking.

So here is my question to you.  Would putting someone like Sebelius solve the "sexism" problem?  Or is this personal towards Hillary?


[ Parent ]
The Sexism Aspect Is One I Take Seriously (0.00 / 0)
It's undeniable that Clinton was the subject of sexist attacks, and that Obama failed to speak up adequately against them, so I can well understand why Clinton supporters feel that they are owed.  But at the same time, I don't buy this as an argument for putting a woman on the ticket who doesn't do much more than simply satisfy this grievance.  For me, there's got to be something more.

A VP slot for someone like Boxer would make me happy as a progressive, and would have a fair amount of electoral logic to it.  As a leading environmentalist, Boxer would reinforce the whole change message on one of the major fronts--a complete reversal of the Bush obstructionism on global warming, and related issues, including its obsession with fossile fuels and hostility to alternatives that ties into the Iraq War from another angle.  As a Jew, Boxer would uitterly put the kibosh on the neocon attempts to sow doubts about Obama, and would be in a position to help put Florida in play.  This is not the strongest set of strengths--I would argue that Edwards brings substantially more.  But it's not chopped liver.

Boxer has said that she's not interested.  That's the biggest obstacle there.  I don't presume to know how solid she actually is.  But she seems substantially stronger a potential candidate than the other women being mentioned, to the best of my knowledge.  She's a forceful speaker, and can be quite passionate, if not outright inspiring.  And, of course, she has a long legislative history--a decade in the House before moving to the Senate in 1992.

The other most appealing alternative, for me, is simply to arrange for Clinton to become Senate leader.  Institutionally, at least, that's an even more powerful role than the VP, and it would mean that the Democrats would have women leading both houses of Congress.  If Clinton were to go for this--especially if she did so enthusiastically--I think that that would satisfy that vast majority of her backers, and rightly so.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Women are not interchageable (0.00 / 0)
I made the point that Hillary meets the criteria put forth by Paul.

Two...I have said this elsewhere but Sibelius is as exciting as sliced white bread.  I have met her and the post State of the Union speech is not an aberration...that's her.

She does not meet Paul's criteria

It's not rare...think LBJ and JFK , think Reagan and Bush...not rare at all...especially in light of party unity.  Obama supporters are not fully aware of the extent of the disillusionment and anger of her her supporters that exists. Also please remember they all remember the "Hillary you're nice enough"  giving her the back of the hand. Lots of people may not vote for McCain...they won't vote.


"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Oceans of Subtext (4.00 / 1)
"The subtext is rapidly becoming text"
    --Rupert Giles, Watcher, "Ted," Buffy, The Vampire Slayer, Season 2, Episode 11

(1) I've already explained that Clinton does not meet my criteria in any way I can see.  You are, of course, free to argue otherwise, and I would certainly consider an argument made on those terms.  However, you should be aware that the nature of Clinton's attacks on Obama, and her willingness to argue for changing the rules of the process represent major--if not insurmountable--barriers to moving toward a position of reinforcement.  She has not simply taken a contrasting approach toward the presidency, but a conflicting one, in which she has even gone so far as to argue that she and McCain are both ready to be President while Obama is not.  I see no way to move from making such a claim to becoming a reinforcing VP candidate, but if you can make that argument convincingly (not change the subject, or explain why it's not important), then I will certainly listen.

(2) But that's all text.  The real story here is the subtext, of which there are oceansful. Not the least is soap opera side of the Clinton's long public career, in which Hillary Clinton has stood in for millions of women's experiences of suffering repeated attacks on their person and their dignity, almost always without the freedom to respond as she might truly want in her heart of hearts.  That's a whole lot of psychic capital investment, and any remotely sane person must surely recognize how grossly unfair it has been for one woman to bear such a burden.

That said, she alone chose to continue that high profile role when she ran for Senate in 2000.  She is not a victim here, even though she has been victimized.  She has chosen her terms of engagement, to the best of her abilities.  Yet, she is in no way comparable to figures like Barabara Boxer, whose political career owes no more or no less to her husband than many men's political careers owe to their wives. (John McCain, of course, is by no means typical in this regard.)

This complicated status, of course, makes her more suspect in the eyes of the male punditalkcrazy, but its very spicific messiness makes her all the more credible as a psychic representative for tens of millions of women--and this vast disconnect has been repeatedly activated and aggracvated throughout this campaign.

Like I said, oceans of subtext.

My diary here is not attempting to deal with any of that.  Not because it's not important.  Of course it's important.  Vitally important.

But its importance doesn't necessarily converge with the immediate task at hand--the winning of the White House this year in a clear and resounding manner that enables the possibility of a fundamental political realignment.

What's more--if one can set aside, for a moment, the emotional investment in seeking the highest office in the land--when one looks at the opportunity involved here, Clinton would actually play a much more substantive role in realizing the fruits of that realignment if she were to be Senate Majority Leader, rather than Vice President.  I don't expect that to be adequate psychic compensation.  It won't be.

But maybe--just maybe--the real, tangible, realworld progress in the lives of hundreds of millions of women that Clinton can help bring about as Senate Majority Leader will more than offset the psychic cost.

In short, maybe we can finally move on, not abandoning the past, but putting it into a perspective that truly serves the purpose of creating a better future.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Maybe I can set aside emotion (0.00 / 0)
but millions of non politically savvy women can't and won't.  And the more she is disrespected ..by either overt insults or quiet neglect ... the more emotionally invested they become.

It was implict to me when she made the comments re McCain and commander in chief that at that time the public perception was that she and McCain had passed that threshold...and one had to pass that threshold.

So now it's moot because Edwards doesn't want to be VP as I always knew  ( a family friend was his long time aide) so that wasn't my issue when I wrote ... it was to make you aware that the VP choice does matter in terms of winning the White House and the biggest impediment to getting there is pushing Hillary Clinton off the stage.  

And Harry Reid is going no where...believe me. Challenging him would be very ugly and it won't happen.  There is no way to push him out....even by Obama himself who of course wouldn't bother.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
I don't think it would be fair to either of them (4.00 / 1)
Do we really want this divide in the WH?  I think it would be a no win situation for both of them.  Either Obama won't be using her properly or she'll be the one who is really in charge.  Neither of these may be true, but as we all know, that won't keep the media from speculating about it.  It will be just too easy for Obama supporters or HRC supporters to be unhappy about something.

[ Parent ]
The Snideness Doesn't Help, Paul (4.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
Why not? (4.00 / 6)
Who cares if he lost before.  People lose in politics all the time, until they win.

[ Parent ]
And Not Just Politics (4.00 / 4)
Babe Ruth, strikeout king.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I get your point, but this is not a valid analogy. Babe Ruth had a batter average of .342 n/t (0.00 / 0)


End this war. Stop John McCain. Cindy McCain is filthy rich.

[ Parent ]
What's A Metaphor You? (4.00 / 1)
So? He was also fat, and drank a lot of beer.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Babe Ruth was in the top 90th or so percentile for batting averages. John Edwards is probably in the bottom 20% percentile for politician race losing averages. (0.00 / 0)


End this war. Stop John McCain. Cindy McCain is filthy rich.

[ Parent ]
But Edwards Only Plays In The All-Star Game (4.00 / 2)
So it's like he's always going up against Roger Clements.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Babe Ruth All-Star statistics: (0.00 / 0)
Batting average: .333

On base percentage: .500

Slugging percentage: .833

REFERENCE

End this war. Stop John McCain. Cindy McCain is filthy rich.


[ Parent ]
Of course (4.00 / 3)
Just look at Richard Nixon.

OK, maybe that's not the most inspiring example.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
Actually Reagan would be a more apt (4.00 / 5)
analogy.  He lost until he won because he was in the right place in the right time with a message that matched the national zeitgeist (more's the pity).

The reason that the examples are all Republican is that the Republicans don't toss their candidates aside like used Kleenex when they lose a Presidential election.

As far as Edwards, he lost in 2004 for two reasons: 1) he was pushing an economic agenda in a time when foreign policy was really the main issue voters cared about, and 2) Kerry was a war hero and the establishment candidate.

In 2008, Edwards had exactly the right message: the need to change how Washington works coupled with strong, progressive positions (I would argue the most progressive) on the major issues of the day.  However, he came up against two historical candidacies that people found more metaphorically apt to represent change: the first woman and the African American to have serious shots at winning the White House.  As he himself said, he had to step aside to get out of history's way.  That doesn't change the fact that he moved both Obama and Clinton to the left on their policy positions and also forced them to be better candidates than either of them would have been on their own (or have been since he dropped out of the race.)

So you can call him names, but I agree with Paul.  Edwards would be a wonderful complement and catalyst to Obama's candidacy for President.  If Obama is cerebral, Edwards is passionate; if Obama is devoted to fixing the process of government, Edwards is dedicated to those process changes being harnessed to improve the lives of the common man (and woman); if Obama has a grand and broad vision for America's future, Edwards is willing to articulate very specific goals; if Obama is a conciliator, Edwards is a fighter; if Obama's got the cool to be a general leading a successful campaign, Edwards has the heat to fire up and motivate the troops that the war is being fought in their name.

In other words, if OBama is to be our sword in the general, Edwards might provide just the right heat to temper him into a blade of invincible sharpness and power.

John McCain doesn't think kids need health insurance



[ Parent ]
Or Ronald Reagan. (4.00 / 1)
Oops! Not that inspiring, either. How about Bill Clinton, a multiple loser in Arkansas?

Join us at the Missouri community blog Show Me Progress!

[ Parent ]
this loser is getting a lot of media attention. (4.00 / 2)
And has a lot of support in certain regions of the country, and among certain demographics.

I'd venture to say he was a lot of people's second choice until he dropped out: ahead of both Obama and Clinton in that regard.

Have we forgot that he won pretty much EVERY debate (even if the people who said he won were voting for the more historic candidates)?


[ Parent ]
He was my FIRST choice. (4.00 / 3)
What I don't like about Obama is

1) he's not partisan
2) not populist
3) not a scrapper

If he puts someone on his payroll who is all of the above his stock rises significantly.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Yep... (4.00 / 1)
Edwards is everything the Clintonistas try to act like Clinton is in making distinctions between her and Obama, except he really is while she most certainly isn't.

Edwards is partisan in the right way by looking at class not just parties.  When you look at the economic situation of most of America, you can certainly put most of the blame on the Republicans.  The problem is it doesn't take much looking through voting records and the policies of the Clinton administration to realize that Democratic politicians have their own cross to bear when it comes to the squeezing of the average American.  Edwards attacks this from the best angle.

Clinton and Obama's policies are milquetoast and not populist or progressive.  Edwards was the best on policy of the big three and if he can help Obama massage his lamer policies he would bring much more to the table in my eyes than bringing Clinton on the ticket.

I am not sure how much of a 'scrapper' Edwards is, but I like the fact that Obama isn't a scrapper.  If the media had given him the nomination when it was apparent that he had already won it, he could have gone into the general relatively clean.  I think the public is wary of swiftboating and negative campaigning, especially when it comes from the Republican party.  This may have been the one election where a Democrat could have successfully stayed above the fray and not paid for it.  Clinton has unfortunately given legitimacy to a lot of attacks that can be thrown against Obama.  He has weathered them well enough thus far, but the public's innate sense of disgust with the GOP slime machine has been weakened.  Edwards shows enough passion to potentially be able to shout down the worst of the slime, so if this role is clearly defined he might be a good watchdog for attacks on Obama.


[ Parent ]
Not Edwards (0.00 / 0)
I agree with JC, and I say it as a great admirer of Edwards. The object of naming a running mate has to be primarily to win the election, i.e., to attract more votes. I don't think Edwards would do that.

I think Obama needs to be a little bolder than Edwards. A fresher face, perhaps. I had been thinking that Gov. Richardson would be a good choice because of his Hispanic background, but I'm having second thoughts on the grounds of his familiarity on the national scene.

Lately, I'm thinking Wesley Clark. He happens to be the guy who commanded NATO to a victory against Serbia, and who's a critic of Bush's war. He's a Clinton loyalist, so he'd be a bridge builder. And the military background would be a huge plus.

Clark would attract votes that Obama might not otherwise get. Edwards would make liberals feel good. I don't want to feel good, I want to win.


[ Parent ]
Here The Thing (4.00 / 2)
If you have to explain why someone would be a great VP, then you've got to assume that the first 6-8 weeks will be wasted trying to make that case to the American people.  OTOH, if you  satrt with someone who needs no explanation, they can start campaigning at 100% on Day 1.

Now, if w'ere in the situation where the explanation works as campaigning, too, then fine.  But if make that assumption with Clark, for example, then you are saying that these are all Obama's weakneses, and you are right back to arguing with Chris's premise.

So go ahead and do that, first.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Response (0.00 / 0)
First off, I don't think that "having to explain why someone would be a great VP" invalidates the candidate. The alternative is to just throw out a name with no explanation, which I think is absurd.

I don't have a strong preference or opposition to any VP candidate. It's Obama's choice, and it seems to me that he's been doing pretty well up until now, so I imagine I'll support whoever he names.

Clark strikes me as a possibility because he'd be someone who's familiar, having run once before but more as a name-recognition exercise than anything else. Unlike Edwards, he didn't go all-out in two races. I think in presidential (and vice-presidential) terms, Edwards has had his day in the sun.

As for the idea of balancing vs. reinforcing, frankly I think it's an artificial distinction. The fact that two candidates are in the same party pretty much makes them automatically reinforcing, with a contrast being even more so because it can pave the way for voters who don't cleave to the top of the ticket to find a reason to support it.

I think this analysis of Edwards does a pretty good job of skewering the idea that he'd add a whole lot of white, working-class support to Obama. I reiterate that I'm someone who really liked Edwards; I have nothing but good things to say about him as a Democrat, but I just don't think he'd bring in any more votes.

But if Obama picks him, then I'm going to presume that he and his campaign have done the research and run the numbers, and can see something that I don't.


[ Parent ]
Clarification (0.00 / 0)
To clarify about Clark: He strikes me as someone who's familiar but not overexposed. Beyond that, he's great VP material because he's not presidential. His one campaign showed that he really didn't have the feel for the political big top, yet as a supporting actor I think he'd have the right stuff. I think it would play big with the Clintonistas, too.

[ Parent ]
Then As Usual, You Are Just Stating Your Opinion (4.00 / 1)
As for the idea of balancing vs. reinforcing, frankly I think it's an artificial distinction.

Then you're not really part of the conversation here.  And certainly not part of the attempt to create a reasoned debate.

It's fine to have your own opinion.  Everyone's got one, and in America, at least, it's your right.  But it doesn't really get us anywhere collectively.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Disagree With Paul = "Not Part of the Conversation" (4.00 / 1)
Sheesh! And please forgive me for "stating my opinion." What did you do, deliver the sermon on the mount?

[ Parent ]
You Just Don't Get It (4.00 / 1)
I have nothing against exchanging opinions, which is your thing, along with many others in the blogosphere.  In fact, I do it myself all the time.

But this here is something different.  It's an intellectual argument.  So, if all you do is present your opinion, you're not participating in what's really going on.

I was simply informing you of that fact.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
That's Not Even An Opinion! (0.00 / 0)
You're a fascinating specimen, brother C-P!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Wes Clark is a "fresh face"? (0.00 / 0)
Not from where I stand.

I know I'm in the minority, but I don't like to see ex-Generals that close to the reigns of power.  

Furthermore, the notion that the Democrats have to, somehow, demonstrate that they are "tough" and can "make war" is pretty old school.  Didn't help John "reporting for duty" Kerry, did it?


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
But, But, But.... (0.00 / 0)
It worked so well with Andrew Jackson!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Can Hillary really go over Obama's head to make herself VP? (0.00 / 0)
I just read on RCP how Hillary could go over Obama's head to make herself VP which would make all of these academic VP "choice" discussions moot.

http://www.realclearpolitics.c...

The long and the short of it is that Hillary can bring a vote to the floor of the convention and effectively install herself as VP with the support of her delegates plus 20% of the Supers. Anyone know more about this?


[ Parent ]
It Would Probably Be Easier For Her To Fly (4.00 / 3)
Pixie dust is really not that hard to come by, apparently.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Here's what I Believe (0.00 / 0)
Contrary to the NYT piece I saw, I'm not convinced this is best move for Obama nor JRE. Oliver Willis had an interesting take on the "youth" image, just as Bill Clinton and Al Gore had back in 1992, but I don't think that will work to the advantage to either candidate given that neither have significant legislative experience in Congress.  Al Gore did, and was able to carry superdelegates from the House and Senate.  

Mind everyone, I am a die-hard John Edwards Democrat.

No, I think Obama does need someone who is more mature in years, and with both experience as a governor, in the Senate, is in the South, and was against the war in 2002: Bob Graham of Florida.  He's about McCain's age, but he would bring real and perceived "experience" to the table that Obama will need, just as Dick Cheney brought it for Shrub.   Moreover, Graham is a very experienced campaigner.  He didn't make it to the Presidential primaries in 2004, but his voice would be welcomed.


I Have No Idea Why You'd Want To TOTALLY Reject Chris's Thesis (0.00 / 0)
by advancing the candidacy of someone like Bob Graham, much though I might admire him

Would you care to explain why you totally reject the logic of Chris's argument?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I thought it was your premise, not Chris's (0.00 / 0)
Please clarify.

Chris and I agreed sometime ago that JRE possessed the most progressive agenda.  What I am questioning is this the right move for both, and seriously, it is too early.  

But JRE rocked the house as much as Obama last night.

To the naysayers about JRE not carrying NC, go check MyDD or Daily Kos on the debunks on that.  Use my name benny05 at Kos or benny06 at MyDD.

And it's not fair to call Edwards a three time loser when Barack or Hillary had a window to take advantage of a wide open election.

Geebus...


[ Parent ]
Chris's Thesis Is Reinforce (0.00 / 0)
Chris's thesis is that reinforcement is better than balance, as balance implies that a candidate is lacking.

My thesis is that the right kind of balance can help deepen the message, and change the perceptual gestalt, so that in the end it does not appear to be balance anymore, but a deeper form of reinforcement.

In essence, I'm simply arguing that in the right situations what starts off as balancing can evolve to become reinforcing, and that in the process it can substantially strengthen a candidate.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
OK. I can follow this argument. (0.00 / 0)
But please explain why Edwards provides the reinforcement that Clinton doesn't.

[ Parent ]
Clinton (4.00 / 3)
Both Obama and Clinton picked up Edwards' populist rhetoric from time to time.  When you think of Hillary Clinton you don't think "populist", even though it is occasionally true.

Edwards, on the other hand, is Mr. Populism.  It is the end-all of his political image.  (Well, not including the Republican lead backlash.)

Clinton, on the other hand, represents Experience, which makes Obama look inexperienced.  She represents The Past, which does not reinforce the message of change and feel of newness.

I see how Clinton could help Obama from the point of view of unifying the party, but that is about it.

Then there is the whole Bill thing...  I'm sure SNL would love it and it would make for a great sitcom, but seems problematic.


[ Parent ]
Another big concern is that the Clintons might overshadow him, become another Dick Cheney (overly powerfull VP) or even publicly oppose on certain issues. n/t (0.00 / 0)


End this war. Stop John McCain. Cindy McCain is filthy rich.

[ Parent ]
Precisely! (4.00 / 1)
You nailed it perfectly!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I suggest you look at my posts at MyDD and EENR (4.00 / 1)
Instead of attacking subject lines...I am realistic, and have been a hard core JRE supporter for more than 4 years. I appreciate your comments, Paul.  But I'm not in alignment although you seem to be with Oliver Willis but on different grounds.  You and Matt could be OK in our differences of opinions. I know Chris is cool with differences.   He will disagree but not yell at us for those who are not.  

[ Parent ]
I suggest you look at my posts at MyDD and EENR (4.00 / 1)
Instead of attacking subject lines...I am realistic, and have been a hard core JRE supporter for more than 4 years. I appreciate your comments, Paul.  But I'm not in alignment although you seem to be with Oliver Willis but on different grounds.  You and Matt could be OK in our differences of opinions. I know Chris is cool with differences.   He will disagree but not yell at us for those who are not.  

[ Parent ]
I'm Utterly Baffled As To What This Refers To! (4.00 / 1)
Not for the first time, I suppose.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
OK. Now I get it. (0.00 / 0)
It's a very complicated, and not very convincing, rationale for cutting Clinton, and her supporters, out of the picture. Best of luck with your new progressive coalition.

[ Parent ]
Not At All (0.00 / 0)
It's an attempt to develop a rigorous argument that can illuminate the dynamics of choices involved.

One does not have to agree with an argument or its conclusions in order to understand it.

However, if one senses intuitively both its potetnial persuasiveness and power, and doesn't like where it leads, well, then, heaping scorn and obfuscation on it is certainly an understandable, if not quite an honorable response.

Similarly, your characterization of me and my motives, as wanting to cut Clinton out of the picture is utterly absurt. I have already stated several times my willingness for Clinton be given the post of Senate Majority Leader, despite the fact that I really don't like her DLC-style politics.  And I have pointed out that in terms of real power, this is a better position than VP--especially given that her age means that she would not simply inherit the nomination in 2016, the way Gore did in 2000.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I really don't believe you when you say that Edwards was your first choice. I have never seen any sworn Edwards supporter favor Hillary as much as you (except maybe Jerome). n/t (0.00 / 0)


End this war. Stop John McCain. Cindy McCain is filthy rich.

[ Parent ]
Believe what you want to believe. (0.00 / 0)
You badger me with this pointless shit all the time. All I care about at this point is the team. Period. Obama looks like the obvious winner, and I am fine with that. What I am not fine with is what looks to be the beginnings of an effort to purge the party of all that is Clinton. It's as if progressives are willing to drive the party over the cliff in November, all in the name of ideological purity.

Hopefully for all of us,  the Obama team will continue tuning the progressive blogs out, especially on this.  


[ Parent ]
Anti-Washington Sentiment (4.00 / 2)
Edwards reinforces the notion that there is something broken in Washington and the current process, something that Hillary, who is tied to the Clinton-Bush-Carville-Rove axis, is incapable of doing.  She just cannot fit herself into his message of change.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
Because scorched earth means Clinton is undermining, not reinforcing (4.00 / 1)
While Edwards has made some criticisms of Obama, Clinton has been more loudly negative on Obama than anyone.  With Obama branding himself as a genuine, tell it like it is, treat the voters as adults, new-style politician, choosing Clinton as his running mate would be extremely damaging to his image.  It would suggest that he is willing to compromise himself by adding someone to his campaign who seems to hate him.  There is a fine line between working with those who you disagree with, and giving into them, and especially with this latest Bush-appeasement spat, Obama needs to not blur that line.

Clinton, in this way along with others, sacrifices Obama's purity, and that is why she is not a reinforcing candidate.


[ Parent ]
Bob Grahm (4.00 / 1)
did not make it to the first primary in Iowa precisely because he is NOT a good campaigner. Maybe he was in his Florida guv days. But those days are long gone.

[ Parent ]
Not true (0.00 / 0)
He had a heart attack early in the year. By the time he had medical clearance to resume his campaign, it was too late to get traction.

He's a terrific campaigner, known for working alongside ordinary voters for a day, and he's been a governor and a senator. I think he and Obama would get along great.

He was against the Iraq War as a senator and reinforces that aspect of Obama; he has Intelligence Committee and Foreign Affairs Committee experience.

And his popularity in Florida wouldn't hurt.


[ Parent ]
Campaigner (0.00 / 0)
Well I'll have to see more of him on the stump. I remember vividly his convention speech. And no offense to him, but I remember it putting me to sleep. I have no ill will to him. I think he was a fantastic senator and governor and did an immense amount of good for the Florida environment. I just don't think he's a great choice for VP. My opinion is all.  

[ Parent ]
they're the change ticket, the anti-washington, anti-lobbyist ticket (4.00 / 4)
as much as they are a balancing ticket: urban-rural, black-white, lecturer-advocate.

Even the Edwards=fighter and Obama=healer distinction is much more subtle. Edwards unified a lot of conservative democrats, republicans, and independents AGAINST lobbyists and corporate influence that they felt had screwed them on NAFTA. Obama HAS talked about taking on the special interests, about changing Washington, about rejecting the politics of the past. Strategically they're very similar. It's really a tone thing.


A Tone Thing--EXACTLY! (4.00 / 4)
Or maybe register, as well.  Whatever it is, I think that the analogy to a pair of vocalists is apt.  Obama, as the Presidential candidate, definitely sets the dominant tone, and carrier the lead vocals.  But who sings harmony and how--staccato, glissando, syncopated, whatever--can make an enormous difference.

What I'm disputing here is the idea that for the duet to work it has to be someone singing with the same tone in the same register, with the exact same rhythm.  And when you put it like that, you realize that that's the last thing you want.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
"the change ticket" (4.00 / 2)
if that plays, it's a winner. I actually didn't understand what Paul saying until you put it in that phrase.

Team Change-- not a bad idea.


[ Parent ]
that's what reinforcement is all about! (4.00 / 1)
the "balance" mentality is that you have a weak candidate who needs to have their blindspot covered.

the "reinforcement" mentality is that both candidates are about one thing.

I think with Edwards you actually reinforce AND balance -- and the balance is subtle.


[ Parent ]
I like this idea a lot (4.00 / 1)
I really like Edwards and the campaign he ran in 2008, and I think everything Chris and Paul have said about reinforcing the message is pretty convincing (although this could also work against us--think of the commercial about the Harvard Law Review Editor/University of Chicago professor and the guy with the $400 haircut... so elitist!).

I also think that a Presidential ticket needs to capture the time it is taking place in... in 1992, we had 12 years of Reagan/Bush and a slowing economy, so people were ready to vote for the big changes symbolized by Clinton/Gore. People seem even more willing to do the same thing this year, as evidenced by the record lows in the right track/wrong track polling and in races like MS-01.

If not Edwards, I think another good choice would be Sherrod Brown.  


Elizabeth Edwards (4.00 / 4)
Elizabeth Edwards would be a great asset -- she fills the Eleanor Roosevelt role, which would take pressure off Michelle. Plus, she connects with the women that are Hillary's base.

John Edwards brings populist cred, which helps Obama.


So Much So (4.00 / 2)
that she's worth an entire diary to herself.  Though I have to confess I don't follow her serially, so I wouldn't do her justice.  I'm just mightily impressed every time she steps into the spotlight.  She does it very effectively, and equally importantly, considering her role, she never overdoes it.  She always leaves you wanting more.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Here is what is not reinforced: Obama's claim to being unconventional (4.00 / 1)
It's true that Edwards can reinforce much of Obama's message, like his claim to answering to a higher ethical standard.  But like it or not, Edwards appears to many to be a very conventional politician.  Indeed, how often have we heard him attacked as "slick"?

And in my view, Obama's chief asset may well be his promise that he is unconventional, and truly represents something new.  If you accept this premise, then I really believe he is best served by choosing someone who is somewhat off the radar, like Schweitzer.  Moreover, selecting Edwards may appear to be an effort to appease a particular segment of the electorate, which would be bad.


You Are Letting Our Enemies Define Us (4.00 / 2)
Calling Edwards "slick" is just a standard part of the smear machine repetoire.  By accepting that and using it to disqualify him, you are simply validating, and giving power to our enemies.

The whole point of my diary is to argue for taking the power of definition into our own hands.

Why do you oppose this?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Huh? (0.00 / 0)
I don't think he's slick, but I'm not going to bury my head in the sand either and ignore the fact that many have defined him in that manner.

In any event, do you really disagree that Edwards would be perceived as a somewhat conventional choice? This may not disqualify him, but I do think it's enough reason for him not to be at the top of the list.


[ Parent ]
You Are Committed To Playing Defense (4.00 / 2)
Which means that you've given up the lion's share of the chance to score.

I can't for the life of me understand why.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Then why not Feingold? (0.00 / 0)
From your reply, it sounds like you sincerely think that Edwards is the best choice on the merits, politics aside.  If we were only discussing the merits (i.e., who is best for the job), I would not argue with you much at all.

But my point is that there are other people who are better positioned to appear unconventional, and thereby reinforce what I think is an important part of Obama's message.  In fact, I actually think that Feingold would be better in this regard.


[ Parent ]
My Argument Is Not Exclusive (0.00 / 0)
I am advocating for an idea and a perspective here.

I already said that if someone wanted to argue for Clinton, then the way to do it was to show how she could fulfill the same--or at least a similar--function as Edwards.  The same would go for Feingold or anyone else.

But Feingold has not been in the campaign, and he does not have a strongly identified connection with working class whites.  So this makes him more of a candidate in the mode of Chris's original diary.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
OK, I think we agree about the analysis, just differ about the application (0.00 / 0)
Perhaps I should have qualified my comments in the first place by saying I think your analysis is fine, on a theoretical level.  In other words, I agree that a choice can both reinforce one's strengths, while addressing weaknesses.

In the context of Hillary, I suppose one could argue that, by choosing her, Obama could demonstrate his ability to bring different groups together.  (Not that I actually think she should be chosen, though.)

But aside from the analytical approach, I personally am hoping that Obama chooses someone who seems unlikely, in one respect or another, thereby showing that he can break the mold.


[ Parent ]
To Satisfy Me Intellectually (0.00 / 0)
Yowould have to explain how Obama and Clinton come to a point of convergence where they actual DO reinforce.  Until you do thatwe are only meta-theoretically in agreement.

But that's still progress, so I won't turn up my nose at it!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Why (4.00 / 1)
He's opposes Edwards but can't just admit that, so instead he's going for the "some say" smear campaign. He/she was the same one who talked about the mysterious polling showing Hillary Clinton doing better than Edwards among white working class voters.

[ Parent ]
Cut it out (0.00 / 0)
I tried ignoring you, but it doesn't seem to be working.

I read a ton of polls every day, and I can't remember the source of the one that showed Hillary doing better with the white working class group than Edwards.  

But whether or not you want to believe it, I happen to like Edwards. Why you consider it hostility to acknowledge that others do not like him is beyond me.


[ Parent ]
If You Can't Remember The Poll (0.00 / 0)
then look it up.

That's what grown ups do.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Ok (4.00 / 1)
I accept it. But it doesn't help to throw out things about polls that are not common knowledge (such as George Bush has high disapproval ratings) to make an argument. I just don't think it makes sense. So I'd like to see the poll that provides evidence of your assertion. Otherwise, just the fact that the most of the industrial and trade (and SEIU) unions endorsed Edwards I think shows that he definitely had broad working class appeal, especially amongst politically active working class voters.  

[ Parent ]
What is your deal dude? (4.00 / 3)

"Indeed, how often have we heard him attacked as "slick"?"

Well, not at all actually. Except from you. Got any evidence of how many times he's been attacked this way? Was this nugget of information in the same poll your friend's friend told you about showing that Hillary Clinton polled better amongst white working class voters against Obama AND Edwards? Gimme a break.

You seem to like to make unsubstantiated claims about Edwards in order to simply tear him down. You're worse than the MSM's "some say" crap.



[ Parent ]
Edwards Has Been Typecast ... (0.00 / 0)
... as a lightweight and a phony. I don't think of him in those terms, but I also think the charges stuck to some degree. Yeah, I know, I know. I've drunk the FauxNews kool-aid and I'm engaging in self-hatred, blah blah blah. So be it. Life ain't fair, and politics is life on steroids.

In any case, I'd rather that the VP candidate be someone who hasn't been pigeonholed as Edwards as. Face it, whether it was the $400 haircut or something else, when you've run for president a couple times, you've picked up too many dents. The voters don't want the scratch 'n dent job.

That's one of a bunch of reasons why presidential candidates tend to pick people without a high degree of prior nationwide public exposure: They can "create" the VP's identity rather than have it pre-selected.

That factor, by the way, precludes Hillary Clinton's selection as the running mate. It would complete dilute the image of the Democratic ticket. You'd get all the negatives of both, and none of the positives of either. She's the only choice I can imagine Obama making that would make me seriously doubt the skill of his operation.

A final thought for all: Remember, we are price-takers on this one. Obama's going to make a choice, and our job will be to stand up like trained seals and bark on command. Better get used to it, 'cause that's how it is and everyone knows it.


[ Parent ]
The Charges Stuck With The Media (4.00 / 2)
But the folks that Edwards appeals to hate the media even more than your average American.  So this is arguably a plus, not a minus.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I'd be utterly surprised if this happens. (0.00 / 0)
That said, the 'three-time loser' and 'appease one segment' arguments might toss around the media for a week or two, after which I think they'd be utterly forgotten. I imagine first impressions like those would fade almost immediately.

I'd love this, but I don't see it happening. I think Obama's gonna pick someone who doesn't have a power base. I think he'll reject anyone who does. So no Edwards, no Richardson, definitely no Clinton. Maybe Sebelius, maybe someone like Clark. Nobody who comes with his or her own agenda, either. No Webb, no Feingold.  


[ Parent ]
Something strange. (0.00 / 0)
I'm a diehard Edwards fan. He was far and away my first choice for the nomination and I think he would make a great choice for second spot on the Dem ticket. Here's what I find strange though. If you really want to provide "balance" to the ticket, why not pick your VP based on the fact that she got nearly 50% of the votes in the primaries? It would also go far towards re-uniting the party -- an overriding concern of mine these past few months. I'm beginning to suspect that it may not be the overriding concern of other Dems. What is going on here exactly, Paul? Am I missing something? Are there other issues at play here? If so, please spell them out.  

Yes you are (4.00 / 1)
You're missing the whole point of what Paul meant by "balance". Hence the quotation marks. Read the post again.

[ Parent ]
Please Read The Diary (4.00 / 1)
You are talking in terms of conventional political analysis, and that returns us to Chris's default argument.

What I'm saying is that this particular type of balance between these two candidates can produce a form of reinforcement that vastly strenghtens the core meaning and message of the presidential candidacy.

If you can explain how Obama/Clinton would turn that same trick, I would be very interested to hear that argument.

Otherwise, I think you've just missed my point--which, I realize may take more than one diary before it starts to sink in.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I suspect that conventional political analysis (0.00 / 0)
is my comfort zone.

I'm not following this at all. It may all just be a tad overcomplicated/counter-intuitive for my taste. But seeing how Clinton more or less sucked up Edwards healthcare reform/economic populism message and has surged since March by selling it successfully to white working-class Dems, I'm not following the logic of dumping her in favor of Edwards, who didn't appeared to be able to successfully make that case.

Is that not the message Obama should be looking to reinforce with working class voters? If it's Obama's Change in Washington message, I 'd suggest that hasn't nearly the same allure with working class voters as it's had with progressives. Or maybe it's a combo of both?

I also don't see where Clinton's numerous female supporters fit in.  Will they also be as amenable to Edwards reinforcement as they would likely be to Clinton's?

 


[ Parent ]
They fit in with Donna. And Michelle for that matter, who is a very capable, intellegent, and fascinating woman. In fact she has better Ivy League credentials than either Clinton. N/T (0.00 / 0)


End this war. Stop John McCain. Cindy McCain is filthy rich.

[ Parent ]
Perhaps I haven't seen any recent Clinton speeches... (0.00 / 0)
But when did Clinton take up Edward's healthcare plan?  His plan seemed to pretty much attack the current system of private insurers while her plan just makes sure everyone pays them.  When did she present a new populist economics platform?  I didn't see much different on her site the last time I was there.


[ Parent ]
Your default argument is right on (4.00 / 5)
I am somewhat dismayed by the arguments against Edwards here.  Chris and Paul are dead on with their arguments for reinforcment as opposed to balance.  The disquieting points being made by the commenters that are against Edwards as a choice seem to be based on very short memories.  Its as though the only thing they remember about the 2004 campaign is election night.

First of all, Kerry was at the head of the ticket, not Edwards.  Kerry set the tone of the election and Edwards dutifully followed along as V.P. candidates are supposed to do.  His debate with Cheney reflected the demeanor and tone that Kerry set and wanted.  Period.  Anyone watching the debates during this campaign season has to know that Edwards commanded most of them as he was able to be himself.  In 2004 I was a die-hard Edwards supporter who was ecstatic that Kerry chose Edwards.  It only took about two or three weeks to see they weren't that great of a match.  Thier appearances together steadily decreased as the campaign wore on.  Then on the day after the election when Kerry finally conceded all you had to do was see the look on John and Elizabeth's faces.  Kerry had promised to fight to have every legitimate vote counted during the campaign.  The irregularities in Ohio were never addressed by Kerry's campaign on a real level.  Edwards had pushed for that fight and it never came.  These two have barely spoken since the election and for good reason.  

As for the "loser" label being bandied about please spare us the sports and WWF analogies reserved for high school.  Lincoln lost in his first attempt at the Illinois General Assembly.  He did win the next election and served for four terms before running for and winning a term in Congress.  While there he was more or less ineffectual and was known only for a speech he gave damning god for forgetting the weak and innocent.  With a damaged political career from that speech he skipped a run for a second term to avoid all but certain defeat.  Then he ran for the U.S. Senate and lost that one.  I, for one, am glad this three time loser kept on going.

One can argue that today's political climate is differnt and rightly so.  But it is a dynamic environment that is in a state of constant flux.  Just ask Tom DeLay and his redistricting plans in Texas for a "permanant majority" and the three GOP House candidates that lost their special elections this year.  

Democrats seem to have forgotten that you win by breaking a few rules.  Jimmy Carter agreed to and sat for an interview in Playboy drawing gasps and condemnation from all corners of the party.  He won anyway.  Clinton ignored the losing New Hampshire rule that ends campaigns and claimed victory anyway with a second place finish.  Here's to Obama breaking a rule or two.

Edwards for VP.

TrumanDem

Truman's Conscience
"The Buck Stopped Here"


[ Parent ]
Excellent Argument (4.00 / 1)
I have to admit, anyone who even advances the "loser" argument has lost me so irrevocably that I don't have the energy, time or inclination to mount a serious response.  I take it as a sign of their own insecurity and self-loathing, which means that a rational argument is simply bound to fail.

However, I am very happy that you have the stomach for it.  After all, the important audience here consists not of those who make such loser arguments, but of those who just might be swayed by them if not given a healthy reminder of reality.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
When will Obama choose? (0.00 / 0)
Kerry selected Edwards on July 6, 2004.  I imagine Barack will choose around then as well, given that once you have a VP candidate he/she can double your ability to campaign.  That means that Kerry was engaged on this point and his staff was vetting people probably throughout June.  This means that this vetting process will be happening even while Clinton is still a candidate.  I think this dynamic will push Obama to look beyond his past rivals and towards a Sebelius or Jim Webb type candidate.  

If a deal is struck with Edwards for Attorney General then Edwards will be campaigning for Obama just as much as if he were the VP candidate.  That's how badly I'm sure Edwards wants a shot at something.  I'm sure the guy is bored as hell in NC.  And if you can get the milk for free from Edwards, why shouldn't Obama go with a woman (Sebelius), latino (richardson), or post partisan (Webb, Schweitzer)?  


Maybe True, But Irrelevent (0.00 / 0)
What does this have to do with my diary?

It's entirely possible that Obama will play checkers instead of chess, or go.

But why should we?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Apologies for getting off-topic (0.00 / 0)
I think you make a strong case for why Edwards should be the VP. Ultimately Edwards took his time to endorse OBama despite the fact that a lot of his supporters went to Obama as soon as he dropped out.  The impression on this site at least was that Edwards felt he was snubbed by Obama, and that's why he cozied up with Clinton enough to not endorse Obama.  

Ultimately I think Edwards is a smart political entrepreneur who knows that fighting poverty and advocating populism are powerful waves to be riding right now, just as he rode the centrism, third-way wave in the late 90's to get himself a senate seat.  I think Obama can subtly signal to Edwards that he would be a good AG, get Edwards to campaign for him, adopt his message on poverty and pick someone else for VP.  I disagree with your dichotomy of Edwards is or is not the VP.  There's a whole range of roles that Edwards can play in the campaign and the Presidency, maybe we should talk about those too.  


[ Parent ]
Fair Eniough (0.00 / 0)
If that's what you think.  But the point here is that Chris made a powerful argument--not necessarily an inviolate one, but a powerful one.  I am building on it.  And it has to do spcifically with the Vice President.  So what you're saying may make a certain amount of sense, but it doesn't address the logic of either Chris's original argument or my extension of it.  

These are not sacred cows, but they are ways of posing significant questions, brining them into sharp focus.  And I can't help but notice how readily people run like the plague from these sorts of attempts to think rigoroously about politics.  And I can't help but think that this sort of helter-skelter aproach to politics is one of the reasons that we squander so much of our natural advantages as Democrats.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I agree with Chris's paradigm on VP choices (0.00 / 0)
I don't agree with your extension of it to Edwards and that's what I was critiquing.  Where you see passion in Edwards, I see political entrepreneurism.  Edwards had six years in the senate to stand with progressives like Wellstone and Feingold and he didn't.  I think Edwards espoused the politics that I most identify with and I am dedicated to working towards.  However, during the primary campaign I lost my faith that he was the best politician to make those politics a reality.  

I see an Obama/Edwards ticket  as a good cop/bad cop dynamic playing out in the kubuki theater that is our poitical discourse.  Edward's populist message would be like fingernails on chalkboard to the village and the elites and then Obama could come in and soothe it over with his watered down health care and post-partisan rhetoric.  Its a compelling prospect and I think its an interesting idea that Edwards vision and emphasis on poverty could slip into our political discourse by being brought under the Obama franchise.  Look forward to discussing this more.  


[ Parent ]
That's a great idea! (0.00 / 0)
If Obama roughed out a cabinet and got agreement from his choices--and I think Edwards would be a great attorney general--then all of them, including the amazing Elizabeth Edwards (who in a forum easily outshone both her husband and Kerry), could fan out across the country to campaign.

This sounds like a logistical and financial nightmare, but from what I experienced of the Obama campaign, they can do it.


[ Parent ]
I Have Long Been An Advocate Of Candidates Naming Their Cabinets In Advance (4.00 / 1)
In fact, I think they should name them before the primary elections start.

So I'm obviously cool with this suggestion.

But it is off-topic for this diary.  The question would still remain, who should be the VP and why?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Does a job come with the title? (0.00 / 0)
Apparently not.  Too much discussion about what he does for the election and not enough about what he brings to the job.   I would like to see a VP who is influential in Congress, something I do not believe describes Edwards.  He's much better suited for AG where his independence from Congress and politics as usual is a substantial plus.  

The traditional role of vice presidents (4.00 / 2)
before Cheney gave us the full-fledged, unaccountable shadow presidency, was to go to funerals and get in fights. Not necessarily in that order.

The vice president is supposed to be a "pit bull," who sticks up for the president  and defends him from enemies while allowing him to remain "above the fray" and keep his hands clean.

Edwards is totally suited for that role. He is also well suited to playing "Jiminy Cricket," keeping Obama focussed on doing the right thing even when it means the cocktail wienie set will be unhappy with him.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Iraq war (0.00 / 0)
I found this line of argument very compelling: Given Obama's contrasting his judgement with McCain's (& Clinton's) as a way of answering claims of experience, if he picked a VP candidate who supported the invasion of Iraq, it would undermine his message.  It would show that he feels that someone who made that judgment call badly is a good choice for president.

Given that Edwards did that, what do you think of this?


70% of the country thought it was a good idea to go into Iraq (4.00 / 2)
And Edwards was one of the first people to admit he was wrong. I think a lot of voters identify with that evolution. Edwards has shown impeccable judgment on Iraq since then, and on a whole other host of issues.

Adding someone who messed up Iraq before but gets Iraq now is not gonna ruin Obama's anti-war credentials. The only thing that could ruin that is someone who has voted to block a withdrawal: like Casey, Salazar, or Webb. Let alone someone who is full out anti-withdrawal like Lieberman.


[ Parent ]
Which 'Unity' is he for though? (0.00 / 0)
I've long thought Edwards would make a strong choice for Obama's VP, and for many of the same reasons you give.  He is a natural choice and reinforces his message in exactly the way you describe.  On a more practical level, he is white and male, which might re-assure a portion of the population that worries about such things.  I think his strengths could help in regions that will help fill out his election map. In terms of 'natural fit,' both reinforcing and complimenting in message and style, I think Edwards is the candidate.

The problem is that at this point, any reasoning for any other name on that ticket (or at least the offer) feels like cheap justification.  You can logically argue for anyone, and provide decent justifications - and Edwards has perhaps the strongest case, but favoring a 'follow your strengths' analysis without weighing the '48% of Democrats voted for Her' factor seems like stove-piping the intelligence.  

Believe me, the Obama/Clinton logic is one I've resisted for a long time, and I had personally hoped Obama would begin to openly talk with Edwards the day the latter dropped out. I am a long-time Anyone-Named-Clinton-Distruster, but you can't really carry on an argument for who should be VP at this point and then exclude the whole set of criteria that makes her the most overwhelmingly obvious choice.


Why Not? (4.00 / 1)
I am a long-time Anyone-Named-Clinton-Distruster, but you can't really carry on an argument for who should be VP at this point and then exclude the whole set of criteria that makes her the most overwhelmingly obvious choice.

It certainly wouldn't do to arbitrarily excluse that whole set of criteria.  But no one's talking about doing that.

There's a very clear progression here.  Chris developed an argument for a reinforcing VP candidate rather than a balancing one.  Clinton is basically a balancing candidate, and your argument is a meta-balancing one: she almost won!  So she's earned the second spot!

I've added a corallary: There's room for a balancing VP candidate, if their candidacy can fuel a transformation that produces a deeper, stronger reinforcing alignment.

So given these arguments, you have three choices: (1) Refute the basic logic of Chris's argument. (2) Accept the basic logic of Chris's argument, but explain why this time it's different. (3) Accept the basic logic of my extension, and show why Hillary fits the bill as well as Edwards does.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
(2), with a dash of (3) (4.00 / 1)
I think Chris's argument is spot on, but it IS different this time - the nominee didn't crush all comers in the opening primaries, lock it up early and then have lots of time to smooth over bent ego's and pick a running mate solely on shoring up an delegates map.

It really does come down to how committed Obama is to message.  Logically, temperamentally and from a message standpoint, Clinton is wrong, all wrong. But, and you guys are the experts, not me, I can't imagine there are more voters in swing states that would pull for Obama/Edwards but not Obama/Clinton than the other way around.

If this were a normal election in a Clinton-less alternate universe, even if Omaba had used his un-traditional methods to beat all comers to the nomination, then Edwards would be the clear best choice. But it's NOT a normal election.  Clinton is the first Woman to get this close, she has a national organization with a tap to a very inside and old school DNC superstructure.  Sure, the point of his insurgency was to prove it could be done from the outside, but that didn't magically make that superstructure vanish overnight.  As much as we progressives would love to see that dinosaur die, we might do well to realize what an asset her 20 years of political skill and organizing could be in the general election and beyond.


[ Parent ]
Destroying The Village In Order To Save It (4.00 / 3)
The problem is, Clinton pursued her strategy without concern for the damage she might do to the party. And that reason alone makes her unacceptable, IMHO.

So, even if I were inclined to accept the logic of your argument as to why this time it's different, Clinton herself has made it virtually impossible for Obama to take her as his running mate without severely damaging his own credibility in a number of ways.

I'm not saying they can't work together.  But they can't work side-by-side.  He can clearly support her to be Senate Majority Leader.  But making her his VP is in effect endorsing her criticism of him.  It's a self-destructive move.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I hear you (4.00 / 1)
I was one to curse at the screen daily at her tactics.  Found myself detesting her.  I can't even say I'm taking this position for anything more than sheer contrariness, except to say that I find myself less annoyed by her now and more open to the concept of how badly we could crush McCain with her on the ticket.  I mean, if insurgent internet campaign is better than traditional insider DNC campaigns, then both together is even better.  Also, I kinda feel she deserves it because she came this close this late in the game even with a lame-ass pander-fest.  This actually exposes a real weakness Obama has: his insistence on truthfulness over truthiness makes him vulnerable to a real class of voters - especially to McCain.  Indeed, since one of the theoretical criteria for a VP is the ability to wink, nod, pander and sling crap without tarnishing the star, who better than Clinton to do it?

But essentially I agree, if one of the operating criteria is that no one with the letters C-L-I-N-T-O-N in their name should ever be allowed anywhere near the white house again, then Edwards is the next logical and practical pick, for reasons you and Chris outline.


[ Parent ]
I Don't Hate Clinton (4.00 / 1)
But actions have consequences.  She made her bed and now she has to lie in it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Balancing act (4.00 / 1)
I don't see Clinton reinforcing Obama at all and I agree with the analysis of Chris and Paul.  To me the practical considerations also make Clinton a risk even if you wanted to ignore Chris's premise and shoot for out-and-out balance.  While she acts a balance by uniting the party (something that should occur anyway), she at the same time damages Obama's appeal to independents and republicans.  Bill never did really win over a majority of Independents.  If you take Perot out of the equation in '92 I am not sure he would have won.  Hillary has even less appeal to these voters. She also shores up the Republican base for McCain.  That 25% that won't vote for McCain in these latest primaries aren't necessarily up for grabs, but the percentage that is open to Obama probably isn't as open with Clinton on the ticket.  Does a Clinton on the ticket also GOTV of those Republicans who were more inclined to sit this one out than vote for McCain? It might.

So we are playing at the margins here.  Clinton might bring 10% of the party that is unwilling to vote for Obama, but might cost him more of the independent/Republican vote and/or bring more of the disaffected GOP base out to cost us the election.

I think Clinton on the ticket is risky and feel Edwards would help unify the party and seal the change argument for the Democrats.  


[ Parent ]
The problem I see (0.00 / 0)
is that John Edwards has actually not been very successful in winning support among the working class.  If you look at exits from NH or IO, for example, he performs worst among the lower income categories.

I like the guy a lot, but the white working class voters that are up for grabs in this election, a relatively moderate to conservative bunch as democrats go, have historically not bought what he's selling.  

John McCain: Health insurance for low income children represents an "unfunded liability."


Careful (0.00 / 0)
When I made the same point earlier that Edwards had not performed particularly well with that demographic, I was attacked for not being able to cite a particular poll and called an Edwards-hater.

[ Parent ]
Half Right (4.00 / 1)
Low-income voters tend to be low-information voters, and given how outspent he was it's not surprising that Edwards did less well among the lowest income voters.  However, he did best among self-described conservative voters in Iowa, with a plurality of 42%, as you can see here.

A more accurate poll, in terms of what his appeal would likely be in the number two spot, would be the national head-to-heads with McCain that showed him to be the strongest Democrat overall.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Good catch (4.00 / 1)
Interestingly enough, in New Hampshire there is no noticeable difference across ideological groups in terms of Edwards support.

The more general point at which I'm trying to get is that I'm not sure a programmatic left wing populism is actually the way to mobilize the white working class voters Obama needs.  It seems to me that somebody with more bubba appeal and a greater track record with those groups, like Ted Strickland, would be a better bet.  That kind of choice loses the "reinforcer" part of the pick.  I'm not a big believer in the idea that Obama needs a reinforcer to begin with, so I guess I have fewer problems with that.

John McCain: Health insurance for low income children represents an "unfunded liability."


[ Parent ]
But Who KNOWS Ted Strickland? (4.00 / 2)
This is the same sort of fallacy as those trying to dis Edwards as a "loser".  Edwards has been playing at the top of the political heap.  Even a noble loss at that level can give one more authority, more respect, more influence than a dozen wins at a lower level.

I'm not saying it's fair.  I'm just saying that's how it is.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
A lot of people in Ohio (4.00 / 1)
especially in the eastern part of the state, which swings it.    That might be enough.  Its hard for me to imagine a scenario where Obama wins Ohio yet loses the election.

But you're right in general that he's pretty much unknown outside of Ohio and the surrounding states.  I think Strickland represents a more focused bet on putting Obama over the top in Ohio and helping hold PA, whereas other choices would have a broader influence.

John McCain: Health insurance for low income children represents an "unfunded liability."


[ Parent ]
Good observations (4.00 / 2)
As I think about Obama's possible VPs, I keep coming back to the need to choose one of his (near) contemporaries. As much as someone like Joe Biden would be the answer to the question of experience, I agree that there is a kind of synergy that comes from choosing John Edwards (who I supported and still like--until I got to know Obama). Webb as VP might also work this way but that would be far riskier for Obama.

There is a kind of mirroring or synergy that occurs with these pairings and it is definitely partly about race, partly about age and partly about similar beliefs. But, if I understand you, this is a good thing because it would actually transcend race and reinforce the message of change. I agree. Under different circumstances the same effect could be used to transcend gender-but maybe not this time.


Edwards was completely off my radar (4.00 / 3)
until I heard his speech.  Maybe I've heard Obama too much or maybe I was just glad he was endorsing Obama.  Whatever it was about halfway through his speech I was thinking VP.  I'm not buying the loser arguements, remember you usually learn more from failing than you do from sucess.  I don't think he will allow himself to be identified like that again.  As for reinforcing Obama, I would like to see more of them together, but what I did see yesterday was pretty good.      

Hmm (4.00 / 1)
This post is somewhat convincing, so kudos.


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