The Cloud of Eliminationism Grows Over The Election

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:33


Bruce Wilson, of Talk2Action, [aka "Troutfishing"] has a diary at DKos, "Clinton & Campaign Float Assassinate-Obama-Kennedy X5 ?" that's a good deal more than just expressing outrage.  It presents a timeline of assasination remarks related to Barack Obama-a timeline including FIVE separate incidents involving Hillary Clinton's campaign.  The point of the timeline is not so much to point the finger at Clinton as the instigator as it is to call attenion, to clearly illuminate what is going on, and her failure to act responsibly.  

Some may think it is even more sinister than that. But all can agree that this should have no place in our politics.  And yet it does. In fact, the assasination talk attached to Obama's candidacy are just one manifestation of a much broader sickness afflicting our political culture, a sickness known as eliminationism, which pioneering blogger David Neiwert described thus in his 10-part series "Eliminationism in America":

What, really, is eliminationism?

It's a fairly self-explanatory term: it describes a kind of politics and culture that shuns dialogue and the democratic exchange of ideas for the pursuit of outright elimination of the opposing side, either through complete suppression, exile and ejection, or extermination.

More on this below.  But first, to Bruce's timeline....

Paul Rosenberg :: The Cloud of Eliminationism Grows Over The Election
Bruce begins by establishing the context:

The Context

"Copycat Effect" researcher Loren Coleman puts Clinton's horrendous, apparently accidental May 23 remark in context :

Saturday May 24, 2008: Federally Funded "Copycat effect" researcher Loren Coleman has strong words for Clinton's "Obama-Kennedy-assassination" comments,

The power of words, the power of the media, and the power of graphic imagery cannot be underestimated in this political year, or any year. The fact that the vulnerable homicidal-suicidal mind of an assassin can and has been influenced by behavior contagion and the copycat effect cannot be disputed by anyone who is a student of assassinations.

Indeed, what was Hillary Clinton thinking?


Indeed, what?

He goes on to quote from Keith Olbermann's scathing special comment on Countdown following Clinton's May 23 remark, in which he said:

You actually used the word "assassination" in the middle of a campaign with a loud undertone of racial hatred -- and **gender** hatred -- and **political** hatred.

You actually used the word "assassination" in a time when there is a fear, unspoken but vivid and terrible, that our again-troubled land and fractured political landscape might target a black man running for
president.

Or a white man.

Or a white woman!

You actually used those words, in **this** America, Senator while running against an African-American against whom the death threats started the moment he declared his campaign?

You actually used those words, in **this** America, Senator, while running to break your "greatest glass ceiling" and claiming there are people who would do anything to stop **you**?

You! . . .

The politics of this nation is steeped enough in blood, Senator Clinton, you cannot and must not invoke that imagery! Anywhere! At any time!

Although it starts earlier, her is the core of the timeline:

December 27, 2007. Hillary Clinton, on Meet
The Press, accuses Barack Obama's chief strategist David Axelrod of
accusing Clinton of playing a role in the assassination of Benazir
Bhutto. Clinton said Axelrod "accuses me of playing a role in Benazir Bhutto's assassination." (see Salon story for more complete transcript) But on January , 2008 Albert R. Hunt, for Bloomberg News, writes:

"I was in the small group of reporters in Des Moines, Iowa, on Dec. 27, when Axelrod was asked if the Bhutto assassination would help the more-experienced Clinton politically. He disagreed and said the war in Iraq has "diverted" attention and resources from Afghanistan and Pakistan, bolstering radical elements, who may have played a role in the assassination.

That "diversion" argument is made by many Democratic politicians and foreign-policy experts, including Clinton advisers.

Whatever the merits of that argument, it isn't accusing Clinton of complicity in an assassination. Both Clintons had a professional relationship with Axelrod. Hillary Clinton and her husband, who leveled the same charge, know full well he wouldn't accuse her of playing a role in a murder."


January 7, 2008: Hillary Clinton, speaking to a crowd during the New Hampshire 2008 Democratic Primary, is introduced by Francine Torge, who tells the crowd:

"Some people compare one of the other candidates to John F. Kennedy. But he was assassinated."

January 9, 2008: Steve Bell, cartoonist for The Gaurdian, posts cartoon of Barack Obama with a shooting range target on Obama's chest.

February 1, 2008: Der Speigel floats Obama-Kennedy assassination meme.

February 25, 2008: The New York Times floats Obama-Kennedy assassination meme

February 26, 2008: Howie Kurtz, for the Washington Post, comments on the apparent circulation, by Clinton Campaign staffers, of a picture of arack Obama dressed as a Somali elder. The picture pops up on right winbg websites with titles alleging an Obama-Al Qaeda link. By May 12, 2008, notes Ali Etaraz on the Huffington Post, the Obama-Muslim smear had morphed into a veiled assassination threat via the claim, spread by right-wing and right-wing Jewish websites, that Barack Obama might be assassinated by Muslims because he's an "apostate muslim".

Hillary Clinton, March 6, 2008 [off-camera interview with Time Magazine]:

"Primary contests used to last a lot longer. We all remember the great tragedy of Bobby Kennedy being assassinated in June in L.A. My husband didn't wrap up the nomination in 1992 until June, also in California. Having a primary contest go through June is nothing particularly unusual. We will see how it unfolds as we go forward over the next three to four months."

May 12, 2008: Edward Luttwak, in a New York Times op-ed, worries that Barack Obama might be assassinated because of a perception that Obama is an "apostate muslim".

Hillary Clinton, May 23, 2008

I don't. Because again, I've been around long enough. You know, my husband did not wrap up the nomination in 1992 until he won the California primary somewhere in the middle of June, right? We all remember Bobby Kennedy was assassinated in June in California. You know, I just don't understand it. You know, there's lots of speculation about why it is.

Friday evening, May 23, 2008: Keith Olbermann, on Countdown, delivers perhaps the most scathing and morally outraged commentary of his career

The feeding in of the "apostate Muslim" lie is quite telling, as it's all a part of the larger context of eliminationism-in this case, as in many others, our own right wing projecting its own eliminationist fantasies onto the Muslim world.  This off-loading of eliminationist fantasies onto others is an incresingly common theme in American politics-and an increasingly mainstream one.

To get a sense of the larger context this comes out of, consider the Christian Zionist movement, among whom John Hagee is a leading figure.  It is wholly founded on eliminationism. Christian Zionists are dedicated to the "defense" of Israel in order to bring about the Armageddon, and the destruction of Israel, along with billions and billions of people worldwide.  It is a fantasy of mass death so vast and sweeping that almost no one even stops to notice what they are talking about.  Israel even welcomes them as allies!

Here is an expanded version of Neiwert's remarks cited above:

What, really, is eliminationism?

It's a fairly self-explanatory term: it describes a kind of politics and culture that shuns dialogue and the democratic exchange of ideas for the pursuit of outright elimination of the opposing side, either through complete suppression, exile and ejection, or extermination.

... Rhetorically, it takes on some distinctive shapes. It always depicts its opposition as simply beyond the pale, and in the end the embodiment of evil itself -- unfit for participation in their vision of society, and thus in need of elimination. It often depicts its designated "enemy" as vermin (especially rats and cockroaches) or diseases, and loves to incessantly suggest that its targets are themselves disease carriers. A close corollary -- but not as nakedly eliminationist -- are claims that the opponents are traitors or criminals, or gross liabilities for our national security, and thus inherently fit for elimination or at least incarceration.

And yes, it's often voiced as crude "jokes", the humor of which, when analyzed, is inevitably predicated on a venomous hatred.

But what we also know about this rhetoric is that, as surely as night follows day, this kind of talk eventually begets action, with inevitably tragic results.

This is what we are playing with today.  It is far more pervasive than most are prepared to realize.  Which is precisely why the timeline Bruce has put together is so important.  Not because it's unusual.  But because it's unusually clear.


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marginilization, eliminationism, etc. (4.00 / 3)
Okay, i agree largely with your points and creating self-fulfilling prophecies about assassinations is a horrible thing.  But, doesn't the dynamic of a largely male establishment and masculinist election process trying to push a woman out serve as essentially the same thing?  I don't disagree with the arguments mounted in favor of Hillary leaving in substance, but the intensity seemed a bit out of whack to me.

Perhaps easier to say now than before, now that the nomination is relatively clear, but it is important.


Oh Sure (4.00 / 7)
The misogyny directed at Clinton was quite vile and despicable.  But it was much more overt and widespread.  For any number of reasons, people have felt just fine about continuing to be openly misogynist in ways that virtually no one is openly racist any more.

Part of this is certainly intimacy.  Gender relations are just too close for thin veneers to hide that well.

I certainly wish that Obama had been outspoken in denouncing that sort of treatment directed at Clinton.  It would have made a huge difference now, if he had been more pro-active back in January and February, since both these diseases feed off of one another.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
But how much ... (0.00 / 0)
can one "mainstream" leader speak out and call the TradMed to task? ..  Why do you think that is rarely ever done? .. It's because the TradMed can render a candidacy to the dustbin(Howard Dean .. did he do anything for them to treat him that way?).  ... I am surprised Obama's statement last week about media consolidation didn't get more play

[ Parent ]
Great point. (0.00 / 0)
Who knows why Obama didn't come out against it. He might make the argument that a vision of hope does not get realized simply because it makes sense for the public good so he also has to play the games of politics.

I would say that your reason of intimacy as a part of why is true but I want to extend the thought to asking if that reason then excuses it.

I'm a bit disappointed that he didn't take the opportunity to move beyond racism to one of moral leadership. The obvious hazard in that is that it enhances Hillary and he can't really do that just yet.


[ Parent ]
I am sure he was waiting for her to take a stand (0.00 / 0)
against racism first.  She never did.  I don't see any moral imperative for him to do so.  His campaign was not out there trying to foster gender resentment against her so he was not responsible for it.  While it would have been nice, her campaign has never been on the moral high ground and her campaign has used the gender issue as sit suited them at various times i.e. Bill talking about them "beating up on a woman", her talking about, "if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen and I am very comfortable in the kitchen", her standing idly by and laughing as her supporter, Gov. Easly called Obama a "pansy", her surrogate saying that she had three testicles and Obama had one, etc, etc, I could go on.

[ Parent ]
overt vs. subtlety (0.00 / 0)
i disagree that it was overt.  the enormous pressure among the (mostly male) democratic party establishment and its base for clinton to get out, for example, rarely had an overtly sexist call, but the undertones of the process were unmistakable.  In addition to that there were overt statements here and there that were f@#ked up, but those were sort of the exception that proved the rule.  Also, before anyone jumps all over me, yes, I agree, there are plenty of other factors besides sexism which led to the calls for clinton to pull out well before her candidacy was conclusively dead (which it in fact is still not even though the numbers, under almost all reasonable assumptions, don't add up).

[ Parent ]
How can yu buy such dkos tripe? (0.00 / 0)
And coming from you???  How credulous can you be?

2 of the inciendnts cited have nothing to do with hillary clinton...one in particular is an outright lie that obama-dkos fanatics have peddled forever despite all evidience to the contrary that the Obama in Muslim garb photo was floated by rightwing websites and not the Clinton campaign

And the nerve of quoting Keith Olberman...who himself had to apologize for his own eliminationist rhetoric against Hillary Clinton herself....when he said someone ( a man) should take her into a room and only he should come out....death threat inplication if I ever heard one....maybe his outrage in his comment was one way to deflelct from his own guilt.  

Of course the dkos diarist did not quote Olbermann to that effect....because it would undercut the notion that vicous, dangerous threats were levelled only against Obama.

Before you talk about the level of political violence against Obama I recommend you go to a diary Natasha Chart put together on this website in which she quoted erica bennett with a compilations of  (100's not just 5) sexist statements, threats, derogatory comments directed against Hillary Clinton before getting on the high horse bemoaning what she or her supporters said.

Or is violence and violent rhetoric directed at women so common that it too doesn't begin to pierce the skin.....Indeed in quantity male violence against women is 1000's of times more prevalent than white violence against black men.

So a little perspective would have been warranted when buying the dkos obama koolaid.  

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Over the top (4.00 / 2)
You'd have to be hopelessly naive to think this had never crossed the Clintons' minds as a reason (among many) for her staying in.  But it is over the top to think she consciously wishes for it.  And I don't see the relevance of the "apostate Muslim" line--it is coming from the swift-boaters and the right, as proven by someone recently, not from Hillary's camp.  And I agree that as a women she is subject to a (different) kind of eliminationsit rhetoric.  

I think it's time we all dropped this particualr line of discussion.  New poll shows Obama ahead in Montana!  Her may win Puerto Rico!

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
Another for the timeline (4.00 / 1)
Another recent incident for the timeline is Huckabee's recent "joke" about Obama getting shot at, which fits Neiwart's definition perfectly.

To be a bit fairer to Hillary, however, the idea that black/progressive leaders on the cusp of success get assassinated in this country is not at all new. Early in the nomination process there were news stories quoting African American voters to the extent that they were hesitant to vote for Obama because he'd just get killed anyway. It's not just eliminationist rhetoric on the right, in other words, it's a generally held view of reality in this country. Certainly there have been assassinations and attempted assassinations of right wing figures, but the ones that people think of as a pattern -- JFK, RFK, MLK and Malcolm X -- were all leaders on the more progressive/leftward side.

On the other hand, even though there is a general perception that Obama is in particular danger because of this national history, it is not good either morally or politically for a figure such as Clinton to reify that perception. As you say, normalizing and mainstreaming the idea may increase its likelihood of actually happening.

No society that feeds its children on tales of successful violence can expect them not to believe that violence in the end is rewarded. -Margaret Mead


Political Leaders Have A Particular Responsibility (4.00 / 1)
You end up right on point.  Of course it's a very real concern that minority leaders are targetted for destruction, one way or another.  Clinton did not make that up, nor did either Bruce or I mean to imply that she did.

But it's one thing to be aware of a pattern, and another thing to talk about it irresponsibly in a way that feeds into an already quite deliberate tendency on the right.  (And here I thought Obama had a problem with repeating rightwing memes!)

As I noted, there are some people who think this is all quite deliberate on Clinton's part.  I am not saying that.  N-O-T, not! What I am saying is that there is an appalling lack of thinking things through and reflecting on the influence she has--not just on those that admire her, but simply on anyone who might hear her.

Put simply--it's the Secret Service's job to be obsessed with thinking about assassination.  But that doesn't mean that anyone else should.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I have an idea (4.00 / 2)
Let's put every word out of your mouth all day long under a microscope for six months.

Do you think it's possible that a couple of times you might say something you wished you had phrased differently?

I do not think making a gaffe shows an "appalling lack of thinking things through."

Obama makes gaffes, but they are not endlessly rehashed in one rec-listed diary after another.

Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.


[ Parent ]
Hmm... (0.00 / 0)
I don't recall Obama making a gaffe involving his only remaining primary opponent being shot. I could be mistaken, though.

[ Parent ]
The Reason I Posted This Is Just That--A Pattern Is Not A Gaffe (0.00 / 0)
I haven't weighed into this before, precisely because I realize that there's some legitimacy in this defense.  But that's only so when something happens in isolation.  Bruce's post argues against that presumption, and does so rather convincingly, IMHO.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
most of his "pattern" (0.00 / 0)
is not attributable to the Clinton campaign.

I am not convinced.

Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.


[ Parent ]
You Need To See The Larger Pattern (0.00 / 0)
to see how Clinton's behavior fits in.

That's quite straightforward, and it's really the whole point.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Where is it? (0.00 / 0)
"You Need To See The Larger Pattern"
Many here see only single incidents, thrown arbitrarily into a pot. Can you be sure that the "larger pattern" isn't only an optical illusion? I mean, it looks like many tiles, like the Spiegel and NYT stories, don't really fit right in. In fact, when it really comes down to making assasination acceptable in the eyes of a madman, only the horrible Huckabee "joke" reaches this critical level. So, the large pattern you speak of actually consists of several mismatches and only one good piece of evidence. That's still supposed to be a pattern at all? Sry, but this won't convince any clear sighted observer.

[ Parent ]
So easily convinced? (0.00 / 0)
"Bruce's post argues against that presumption, and does so rather convincingly, IMHO."
He's taking independent events out of context, and throws them into the same pot. Looks like 9/11 conspiracy theory talk to me. Or playing "6 degrees of Kevin Bacon". Everything that doesn't fit into the picture isn't mentioned, for instance, that there have been lots of publicly voiced concerns when news about security lapses at Obama events came up (wasn't this around February 1st?). And this hodgepodge of dubious "evidence" still reaches the threshold to convince you? Hmm...

[ Parent ]
"Patterns" and narrative. (4.00 / 1)
As Hemingway said, every writer needs a "built-in bullshit detector."  You've lost yours.  There is an easy way to find it again.

The problem with the left blogs is that they lost their ability to detect their own bullshit.  It used to be very simple.  Left blogs used to understand that, in modern political discourse, the worst enemy of reason-based discourse is narrative.  Then, once they got past the easy stuff - that is detailing the crimes of GWB - they forgot this simple insight.

By narrative, they meant something very specific - taking a few words or actions out of a long career or campaign and turning them into a novel.  Because once you get beyond fact, and the discussion of policy, or the major themes of the campaigns, there is only narrative, and narrative is always entirely subjective, and entirely bullshit.

Anyone can invent narrative.  John Kerry can be a flip-flopper.  Al Gore can be a serial liar.  John McCain can be a straight talker.  Or they can all be exactly the opposite - you just need to take three or five or seven statements from a year of campaigning, or three or five or seven bills from a lifetime of legislating, and declare them to be a "pattern."  Here, Bruce has taken five statements, not all from Hillary herself.  This establishes a "pattern" and thus reveals a "theme" of the campaign.  It's unadulterated crap - not always because the specifics are wrong, but because it's a dishonest and propagandistic way to approach the campaign.  FFS, the woman gives at least two speeches a day, and has been introduced by literally hundreds of people who write their own material.  You might as well find a "pattern" in five sentences of the collected works of Shakespeare.  

When you start talking about vague concepts like "eliminationism" and then using five examples from a half million words spoken over the past six months to support the existence of this indefinable concept you are engaging in narrative.  And by nature, you are engaging in anti-reality, anti-reason, propagandistic bullshit.  That makes you no more useful than the msm you always claim superiority over.

It doesn't matter who uses narrative - it is always useless, entirely subjective, and dishonest.  Every time you do it, you degrade your own credibility, and injure discourse for everyone.  I don't think you care, but at least you should know that some of us notice.


[ Parent ]
Well said (0.00 / 0)
Paul, to me this what you have said here is the perfect antidote to the portion of this story that I criticized in a reply to SayItLikeYourCrazy below. Very well put. I think this  is a very good topic and it will be worth revisiting all the way up to November. Its bound to intensify.

I wonder if Google can help out with frequency of words like "Obama" and "Assassination" on the web over time. I wish someone were doing comment content analysis on blogs across the web.  

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


[ Parent ]
how did Clinton "reify" that perception? (0.00 / 0)
I think that is ridiculous.

Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.

[ Parent ]
Neiwert's Work Is Excellent (4.00 / 2)
I really highly recommend taking a look at all his series (Rush & Newspeak, Psuedofascism, Eliminationism, etc) as they're outstanding.  If you can find his books at your library, give those a read too.  If you're not already reading his blog, you're really missing out.  His coblogger, Sara Robinson, is very good too.  They do an excellent job pinpointing the sources of hatred in American politics, and who is letting it seep into the mainstream dialogue.  Just wanted to plug one of my favorite writers, since he got a mention here :)

Disgusting (1.00 / 4)
That these pages would cite a diary from a blog famous for t thriving on outrageous accusations to slime their guys opponent. The f*ing blogs have become worse that the BS tabloids you see packed with obvious lies and doctored photos at the grocery store.

The Orange Satan blogger forgets to add that it was way back in May of 2007 that Obama got Secret Service Protection which is long before any of these comments were made...

Comments by the way in which Clinton made only ONE of and that was the reference to Bobby Kennedy.

ONE! THAT IS ALL SHE MADE. And it was a historical time reference that Kennedy was ALSO still running for the nomination in June. But yet people try to take the comment out of context and if they had any sense of history they would know "At the time of his death, Kennedy was significantly behind Vice President Hubert Humphrey in convention delegate support" (citation: wikipedia)

You see - Clinton was referring to the fact that Bobby was still in it in June even though he was running behind Humphrey! But have you read that in a blog anywhere? Did Paul the resident historian mention that> Hell NO!

But yet the Orange Satan blogger and now Paul try to take the whole list presented here and try to make it as if Clinton herself was involved in all of these comments.

Obama supports have long ago jumped the shark. They forget when Obama was still making his insider deals in the Illinois State Senate that Clinton was making numerous Progressive Liberal votes in the US Senate. They forget that she is the only one who along with Bill ever tried to bring true Universal Healthcare to our nation. Additionally Hillary worked hard in the Clinton WH to help get passed SCHIP legislation. But yet no one wants to recognize her contributions to the Progressive movement that we all cherish. NO! Instead these pages including Chris and Matt ignore all she has done and demonize her and throw her off the bus. It's no wonder why the netroots does not command the respect in DC that they feel they deserve. The don't get the respect because they will turn on a dime to love you one day and then hate you the next.

Hell Chris wote this back in February of 2007:

there is no way I could respect either myself or the movement and support *** in the primary. His campaign will have contributed to the longstanding goals of the conservative movement and DLC-nexus alike to defund, marginalize, ostricize, and otherwise diminish the influence and credibility of the people-powered netroots and grassroots. Such a move would reinforce every elitist, ignorant, double-standard, disinformation campaign ever run against the netroots and the blogosphere.

Now one could safely assume given Obama's trashing of the blogosphere On Fox News and elsewhere and the call for his supporters to defund netroots organizations like David Brock's Progressive Media USA that Cris was talking about Obama. Certainly all the words Chris wrote could apply to Obama.

No but it wasn't Obama he was talking about at all. You see at the time in February 2007 Chris was supporting John Edwards. And those words in the quote above were in reference to Edwards, not Obama. But because of an internal Blogger issue that Chris did not agree with he was ready to throw Edwards under the bus for one issue and not a politically important one at that. It was wholly a blogger issue but Chris was ready to love Edwards one day and hate him the next.

That is exactly what has happened to Clinton. It matters not what a person has done over a lifetime for the Progressive movement.

It also matters not that one day a blogger loves their favorite candidate, then is ready to throw him off the bus because he offend bloggers...

But yet a little more that a year latter that same blogger supports another candidate who offend bloggers!

Bloggerville has become Bizarroville. It is OK to toss aside a lifetime of work of a person for political expediency. It is OK to drum up a bunch of quotes and try to weave them as attributed to a candidate who did not say what is quoted. It is OK to toss any politician off the bus putting more weight one one statement or one vote that the weight put on a lifetime of work. It is OK for a blogger to trash one candidate for offending the blogosphere but yet turn around and support another candidate just as guilty a year later.

In other words it is OK for a blogger to front page a list of lies. It is OK for a blogger to flip-flop on a position but it is not OK for a Pol to flip-flop ever or they catch hell and lose all the points they have scored in the past as if those votes that got us things dear to all of us never happened. Bizarre!


Take Your Meds (3.20 / 5)
Guilt by association much?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Low class (4.00 / 3)
Seriously, Paul, you need to take a break.

Clinton made an ill-considered statement for which she apologized.  You may believe she is the female incarnation of Satan, if you wish.  However, to claim that a reference to RFK is "eliminationism" is simply unhinged.

Say It Loud took the time to document to exaggeration involved in the RFK statement controversy.  You are right that it isn't exactly on point with your post.  It is relevant only in that it is the starting point to examine the sickness in your post - paranoia and blind hatred, carried to comical extremes, and your post being an extention of being far on the end of that limb.  To suggest that this has anything to do with "eliminating" Obama by force is almost too silly to be considered offensive.

In fact, the whole notion of "eliminationism" is pretty weak.  In politics, as in debate with elevated feelings, there is a desire to triumph over one's opposition decisively.  This manifests itself in ill-considered comments and crude jokes.  It always has.  It always will.  That is a very different thing than expressly or by implication calling for someone's forcible extermination.  But it is a useful tool in one sense - it helps you put your world into black and white context.  Find one exaggerated or misconstrued statement of an opponent, call it "eliminationist" and you have found something in common with everyone else you don't like - from Haggee to Hitler. That's the heart of your political movement - demonization of opponents.  

It's sad to think that you might really think what you wrote is somehow relevant, analytical, or even intellectual.  


[ Parent ]
She never apologized to Obama ... (2.67 / 3)
and if you look at the words of her apology .. they weren't much of an apology at all .. speaking of which .. I heard she had an op-ed on todays NY Daily News

[ Parent ]
daily news (0.00 / 0)
here is that blather:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new...

its fine for her to say Kennedy's campaign in 68 had continued into June and may have continued past June. She should just say that if thats her point.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


[ Parent ]
Except the priamries .. (4.00 / 1)
started in March back then .. not the first week of January .. and as Kos pointed out yesterday .. if she was indeed tired .. and pooped when she said the RFK remark .. that makes her 3am ad look down right idiotic .. doesn't it?

[ Parent ]
It's 3 AM, Do You Know Where Your Blooper Reel Is? (4.00 / 1)
No, but my Simon and Garfunkle record is right here...

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Yeah .. but is it a Wednesday morning? ;-) (4.00 / 1)
.. anyway .. tomorrow she'll say .. "Last Night I Had the Strangest Dream" ..  LOL!!

[ Parent ]
It's may 25th, do you know where your towel is? (0.00 / 0)
http://blog.wired.com/geekdad/...
Happy towel day, Paul!
:D

[ Parent ]
Hey, I'm not saying its a compelling argument (4.00 / 1)
I'm just saying if she wants to make this time line argument she can without intentionally or accidentally suggesting she's  waiting for her opponent to be assassinated. its a reply to those who say "what the big deal, she's just speaking about the time line.".

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
That's the thing .. (0.00 / 0)
find a better one .. given that she's made the same statement a few times .. it's about time she find a better comparison

[ Parent ]
As usual you are rediculous, BUT... (4.00 / 4)
You raise a good point that most of the citations in the list are not attributable to Hillary Clinton or her surrogates. To count 5 is certainly a stretch, and asserting so distracts from two important things going on: 1) The specter of elimination is an interesting and worthy topic and stands alone without accusing Hillary of being responsible for it. 2) Hillary's statement Friday and earlier in Time Magazine is horribly crass and due to the politically charged environment and the history of elimination in American politics disgustingly irresponsible on its own, particularly for a politician as skilled and "experienced" as Hillary Clinton. It is not different in irresponsible measure from Bush's own "Bring it on". Both are wildly dangerous.

For this reason you are right that the DailyKos dairy is off kilter. And Paul would have done better to cite the dairy as a material source but repudiated the guilt by context meme.

But he rest of your rant is off topic and mostly ridiculous, including the selective historical references to writings on this blog, and the gross accusations of whole swaths of people "bloggers", "Obama supporters", literally millions of people. Even more unfortunate about your comment is your stubborn unwillingness to hold your candidate of choice responsible for anything, even the most blatant heinous comments, while demanding others do so for theirs. Combine you completely undermine your voice.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


[ Parent ]
Is it just me or is the NYTimes editorial board bullshit (0.00 / 0)
Friday the NYTimes editorial board issued a second strongly worded condemnation of Hillary Clinton's campaign in the last couple weeks. They find her behavior repulsive. This of course is the same group that endorsed her, an endorsement which still stands. Yet they have not so much as suggested that perhaps they should reconsider their endorsement.

Ironically they end their most recent editorial with "What's next? 'Mistakes were made"'?"

Good question.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


Who Knows??? (4.00 / 1)
Ever since they threw William Safire a lifeline, and hired him out of the steaming rubble of Watergate, I have not trusted anything the NY Times does.

My policy is pretty much, "trust, but verify," only without the "trust" part.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
And when they decide to employ .. (4.00 / 1)
Kristol .. on top of "Little" Tommy Friedman .. and MoDo(not to mention Judith Miller and Michael Gordon) .. they are not trustworthy at all

[ Parent ]
Didn't you know that their new motto was (0.00 / 0)
All the news [and opinion] that's fit to print--and then some!

Although perhaps it should be:

Buy the truth, get lies and BS thrown in for free!


"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
this diary is as absurd as it is low (4.00 / 1)
Really, I am disappointed that you would sign your name to this.

Axelrod said that Hillary was "indirectly" responsible for Benazir Bhutto's assassination. Then Obama went on tv the next day and defended Axelrod's remarks. Here are a couple of flashbacks for you:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2007...

http://www.mydd.com/story/2007...

Yet you claim that Hillary's campaign, with eliminationist goals, set out to create a buzz about Pakistan because it would connect the word "assassination" with Obama.

How is Hillary responsible for a Guardian cartoon, an article in Der Spiegel, or an op-ed by Luttwak?

I think you, Olbermann and the howling mob at DKos have blown this gaffe way out of proportion.

If I want to read about how every word out of Hillary's mouth is carefully calibrated and reflects her malicious desires, I can turn on some right-wing radio show. I don't need to come to Open Left for that.

Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.


Friday's coment alone is wildly dangerous (4.00 / 1)
its very irresponsible for Hillary to be saying such things. the rest of the list is unnecessary to see that it is so, and since most of it is not attributable to Hillary as you rightfully observer, it only serves as a distraction from this important point. I share no taste for the mob scene at DailyKos, but you are wrong to condemn Olbermann, Hillary's statement Friday was dangerously below board. We don't need crazy people taking cues from the candidates.  

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
Then how would you describe Huckabee's "joke"? (4.00 / 1)
For Huckabee to make a "joke" about somebody SHOOTING AT OBAMA while speaking to THE NRA is what I think could fairly be described as "dangerous," maybe even "wildly dangerous."  I would not, on the other hand, describe what Hillary said that way (though as I said in a comment below, I don't think she should have said what she did).  Are you really sure you want to commit to a functional equivalence between these two incidents?  

[ Parent ]
They are both equally dangerous (4.00 / 1)
I have no problem committing to that position. It is gravely irresponsible for a candidate to say things like "I should stay in the race, remember so and so was assassinated in June", even if the point is to mark the time "June" and not to say "I'm here to step in should that happen again". Because we all know it can easily be read the second way and be interpreted as politically acceptable; that is a grave concern. Give the historical relationship of RECENT political assassination to the civil rights movement the situation incredibly intense. Going forward with the remark is dismissive of this grave concern and the political climate.  

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
Assassinations and the civil rights movement (4.00 / 1)
As I said down-thread, I do agree with this point to the extent that her remark was insensitive to this raw nerve among many AA voters in particular, and thus the remark deserves some criticism and should not have been made.

Where I disagree is in the level of outrage expressed over this point and the equivalence with direct references to someone assassinating Obama, as I also discussed below.    


[ Parent ]
it can be interpreted as a direct reference (0.00 / 0)
I'm not saying this is what she's saying or encouraging - what I am saying is it is irresponsible to say this thing because it can be interpreted as a vialed direct reference by crazy people and interpreted as acceptable. and to not recognize that is willfully ignorant and that's where Olbermann's condemnation is coming from - basically Hillary should/does know better. its also why her so called apology really misses the mark.  


Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
they are not equally bad (0.00 / 0)
I do not think she deliberately "went forward" with the remark to raise the specter of obama being assassinated. Read the whole relevant portion of the transcript. To me it looks like she is emphasizing that RFK was still campaigning in June, not having wrapped up the nomination, at the time of his death.

Furthermore, I do not agree that her offhand remark planted an idea in the minds of people who had never thought of it before.

I can't count the number of Iowans (both supporters of Obama and supporters of other candidates) who I heard at some time during the past year express concern that Obama might be assassinated.

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[ Parent ]
The point is that it reinforces (4.00 / 2)
not that people will have never thought of it before. It reinforces it from someone with a huge platform with every word she says. Many of you neeed to understand that she doesn't get to make these kinds of mistakes even if she had a shot at being President. As President (and as a candidate) her job is to understand exactly this sort of dynamic. It doesn't really matter that some Iowan said x, y or z. They aren't up on the bullypulpit, and their impact is different.

[ Parent ]
somehow I think that when Obama makes a gaffe (0.00 / 0)
people are not going to pile on and say you don't get to be president when you make these kind of mistakes.

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[ Parent ]
Just to give a sense of how deeply enmeshed (4.00 / 1)
violence, violent imagery, and eliminationism is in our culture, going well beyond political culture, your comment above, I'm sure quite unintentionally, used the following language:

even if she had a shot at being President

The term "had a shot at" comes from, I'm fairly certain, shooting something (be it a target in practice, an animal, or a person) with a gun. So while no doubt you didn't mean it this way, you inadvertantly invoked Clinton's very implication (which I too believe wasn't literally meant or wished for), that to become president, someone would have to be shot.

Of course, you used a common colloquialism that we've all used in contexts where we had no intention of implying or invoking violence, that has long since ceased to contextually mean what it literally means (e.g. "threw him under the bus", "off the reservation", etc.).

Clinton's remark, however, cannot be excused away this easily, as being one of those expressions that everyone uses that doesn't really mean what it literally says. Not in mid-2008 at least. Hopefully never. Some words and expressions simply cannot be excused as not to be taken literally, nor should they. I'm not saying that she said that she wishes that this happens to Obama. Of course she doesn't. But to cite it as an example of something that COULD happen to him, because it's happened to others in the past, is simply beyond the pale.

Yes, our language and culture is suffused with violent words, expressions, metaphors, symbols and imagery, and no one is immune from having used them. We all have. And to that extent, Clinton could have been excused had she invoked them. But this is clearly way beyond that. She "jumped the shark" here, as the au courante phrase has it. There are lines. Everyone knows what they are. And whatever she actually meant, she crossed one of them, displaying, at the very LEAST, her bad judgement and very poor taste (as bad as if not worse than what Schuster said). That's what this ultimately comes down to.

So yeah, I totally agree with you, even if your words inadvertantly illustrate what this diary tries to show. But just as there's a big difference between what a supporter says, and what a candidate or one of their top aides say (your point), there's also a big difference between inadvertantly invoking words and phrases that might literally be violent in origin but which have long since come to have non-violent common usage meaning, and consciously invoking words or expressions that cannot be excused away as such (my point).

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
This Is Just The Point (0.00 / 0)
I can't count the number of Iowans (both supporters of Obama and supporters of other candidates) who I heard at some time during the past year express concern that Obama might be assassinated.

Being a presidential candidate means there are some things that ordinary folks can say that you cannot.  Sometimes these transactional rules are silly.  (Having to use Don Knotts cuss words--or worse, Ned Flanders ones!) In this case they most certainly are not.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
ok, I see what you are saying here (4.00 / 1)
I do think that Hillary should not have made the comment.

But I also think Troutfishing's analysis is strained, and that too many people are delighting in her mistake and citing it to "prove" that she desires harm to come to Obama.  

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[ Parent ]
It's Not About Equivalence (0.00 / 0)
I am not trying to make a moral argument here, I'm trying to illuminate a pattern that none of us should have any part in.

I am not trying to make a moral argument here, because I think it's pretty damn straightforward that all of this is evil.  And I think it's also pretty damn straightforward that a lot of it is unconscious.

So the aim is to make it conscious, so that people of good will can and will take action against it.  I am not accusing Clinton of anything more than not really being conscious about all of this.  Others may do more, but I do not.  I am much more concerned about the future than the past.

And, yes, for the record, Clinton has been very unfairly slimed as a woman, and all of that is despicable as well, even though it doesn't involve direct threats against her life.  Dehumanization is evil, too.  But here I am specifically focused on eliminationism, which is a step beyond garden variety dehumanization.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Huckabee was openly joking (4.00 / 1)
about someone taking a shot at Obama.

In the context of explaining that it is not historically unusual for a campaign to go on until June, Hillary used an analogy that probably no one would have recommended.

I don't think the two are comparable.

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[ Parent ]
You leave out the bit that matters (4.00 / 1)
how she choose to explain it.

[ Parent ]
Stop the mindreading, pls (0.00 / 0)
"Hillary's statement Friday was dangerously below board."
ONLY if you read it in the way Olberman, Rosenberg, and many others do. Well, of course, there are lots of people who will misquote, distort, and spin everything Clinton will say. But her recent oped in the Daily News makes a compelling case that it wasn't meant that way. Btw, where's her motive? What would she gain from this? The whole accusation is simply ridiculous and makes no sense.

[ Parent ]
It's only misleading IF we accept your (0.00 / 0)
view of it. That's kind of the point. I think she was simply making a mistake, but that doesn't excuse her mistake.  

[ Parent ]
Huh? My view? (0.00 / 0)
I was speaking about Clinton's view, as given in her Daily News oped. Since I am not a mindreader, nor owning a crystal ball, I accept her explanation, in lack of other evidence. In dubio pro reo.

"I think she was simply making a mistake, but that doesn't excuse her mistake."
Ooh, she said "Bobby Kennedy was killed!" Stone her, stone her!
No, seriously, I've read lots of comments that go beyond saying "she made a mistake". I guess those people believe the whoitewater tales of the republicans, too.


[ Parent ]
I don't deal with over the top people online anymore. Good luck. (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
What are you trying to accomplish by linking to MyDD? (4.00 / 2)
I, along with many others, found nothing wrong with the statements coming out of the Obama's campaign after Bhutto's assassination. Contrary to what many at MyDD think, opposition to the war in Iraq has become a central part of the Democratic platform. It's obvious to everyone who lives in the reality-based community that going to war in Iraq has made our real enemies stronger and has made the world a more dangerous place. To say otherwise just falls into the Clinton camp and Bush administration's spin that going to war in the first place was a good idea.

That was a silly time for the Clinton campaign; Trying to create outrage when Obama simply stated the obvious.


[ Parent ]
I linked to make the point that (0.00 / 0)
it was Obama's campaign who sought to tie Hillary to Bhutto's assassination. Axelrod brought it up, and Obama backed up his analysis.

By contrast, this diary makes the spurious claim that Hillary sought to bring up this issue because there was some kind of eliminationist benefit to connecting the word assassination with Obama in the public consciousness.

I do not agree that Obama was just "stating the obvious". I thought that was a pretty low moment for the Obama campaign.

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[ Parent ]
Did you read what Axelriod said? .. (4.00 / 1)
and the reasoning he used? .. it's not the same thing .. besides .. if you want to view it cynically .. Axelrod did have a point .. he was making a point about foreign policy .. and what happens when you make bad foreign policy choices

[ Parent ]
I don't think that's the point (0.00 / 0)
I might be reading this wrong, but I thought the point of Paul's post wasn't that Clinton was behind every instance of eliminationism in this campaign, but that this frame of mind was evident throughout American culture. Much like guns are a normal part of American culture but are seen as outlandish in other countries, assassinations and eliminating entire races of people are seen as normal topic of discussion in America, but not elsewhere.

Paul is pointing out the times when Clinton and her campaign have bought into this aspect of American culture instead of rejecting it.

And, really, political discussion would be entirely stifled if every instance of pointing out that your opponent's votes have repercussions was considered "pretty low".


[ Parent ]
I was there during that debate,a nd that (4.00 / 1)
was the spin as to what Obama's campaign said rather than what it actually said. At the time like you I supported Edwards, but had a really big problem with the Clinton supproters spin. And as for the gaffe- which I didn't want to talk about until now- the fact is as a black guy I find it deeply offensive. I don't believe she meant it as she said it, but I do believe she has developed a political tone deafness that's not good for the presidency even if she did still have a shot.

[ Parent ]
By the way (4.00 / 2)
I saw the Bhutto comments as saying that American foreign policies, including those that Clinton support created blowback. As I asked at the time- who ca deny blowback? I found it disturbing then, and I find it disturbing now to argue that because she has the D after her name we aren't going to hold her accountable for the blowback of policies she did indeed supported. I can forgive the mistake she made. As I did Edwards, but not if that means denying what happened.

[ Parent ]
RFK Jr. (0.00 / 0)
Has anyone bothered to notice that he wasn't offended by Hillary's remarks?  Yes, he's one of her supporters.  But he's also, you know, ROBERT KENNEDY JUNIOR.  The likes of Olbermann should take that into account and really just chill out about this.

Now, on the other hand, there's something to be said for being extra sensitive about invoking political assassinations in any way during a presidential contest involving an African-American.  I remember one blog post just after Iowa (don't recall which blog it was on) by an AA blogger discussing how his exhiliration with Obama's sudden win was combined with a terrible fear that he would be assassinated right then and there while talking to the Iowa crowd.  I certainly think that white people like myself need to be sensitive to the potential for this visceral anxiety among AAs, particularly those who lived through the terrible violence of the '60s.  In that sense, Hillary shouldn't have said what she did because even an indirect association of the current campaign with political assassinations of the past is liable to touch a particularly raw nerve.

So, all in all, I'd rather she wouldn't have made the remark, and I do think it's an opportunity for everyone to be reminded of some real sensitivities at play here.  But I'm also put off by the piling on and the rush to outrage that's WAAAAAY out of proportion with what she actually said.      


Was The Outrage Over The Top? (4.00 / 1)
I can understand an argument to that effect.

But then consider what we're talking about.

When you assess risk, the formula is the product of the loss times the probability.  The loss we're talking about here is enormous.  We know it is, because we've suffered it before.  That means there should be a very low tolerance for probability.

So, if Olberman seems over the top to you, but he succeeds in substantially reducing the probability, then his actions weren't over the top at all.  They were entirely appropriate.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
A different probability analysis (4.00 / 2)
I'm simply not convinced that Hillary's comments were/are likely to increase the probability of this particular catastrophic event.  As I said, I do understand that it could make a lot of people nervous and uncomfortable, so I would understand a level of protest commensurate to that harm, but Olbermann's VASTLY exceeded that.  I simply don't think people need to go nuclear on this Hillary comment to get her (or anyone else) to stop making any indirect assassination remarks.

However, Huckabee's DIRECT REFERENCE to killing Obama IN FRONT OF THE NRA is waaaay more likely to increase the risk of such an event actually happening.  Yes, I know that there are far more people paying attention to what Hillary is saying than what Huckabee is saying.  But Huckabee was (a) talking to THE PEOPLE WITH THE GUNS and (b) doing so in the context of his position within the one major political party that's vastly more identified with gun users than the other party.  The risk of legitimization of the assassination of a black Democratic candidate is far greater in that context than it is in the context of Hillary's remarks.  If Olbermann had gone nuclear in THAT instance (maybe he did, I don't remember, although I'm assuming he didn't unless someone can show otherwise), I'd have been a lot more sympathetic.

But the level of outrage I'm seeing in this instance seems directly proportional to the amount of hatred for Hillary on the part of whomever's getting outraged.


[ Parent ]
One could argue (4.00 / 1)
that such things are always worse when it comes from the inside. As for "the ones with the guns" this is silly, crazies are not limited to the pool of registered NRA members.  

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
I guess we see it differently (0.00 / 0)
I just think the risk of a black Democratic candidate being assassinated is far more likely to come from someone paying attention to GOP leaders making explicit "someone might try to kill Obama" references at NRA meetings than from Democratic candidates saying "candidates have been killed before" in a context which was not intended to draw any direct connection with the possibility of that happening today.

We're kind of slicing it thin here, since I'm already in agreement that no one should be making any of these references at all.  So as far as what happens going forward from now, there's not much we're really arguing about, especially since Hillary is no longer relevant to the outcome of the primary campaign.


[ Parent ]
Dual Causality (0.00 / 0)
What you're not considering is that the main thrust can indeed come from rightwing leaders.  But a much milder form of "permission" from the Democrats can be all that's needed to make someone feel that "it's all right, since the Democrats are talking about it, too."

I know it can seem like an unfair standard.  But this is not an academic debate.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
you are really off the rails here (4.00 / 1)
Some crazy would-be assassin is going to think wow, I can take a shot at Obama because Hillary has given me permission?

And I reject your premise that any outraged commentaries by Olbermann or anyone else have succeeded in reducing the potential harm done by Hillary's comments.

All they have done is focus more attention on this issue and made more people angry.


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[ Parent ]
Are you arguing that her choice of words has no impact at all (4.00 / 1)
and that anyone who thinks they do are off the rails?  

[ Parent ]
I do not think her mistake (0.00 / 0)
has increased the chance of harm coming to Obama.

That is my honest opinion.

I understand your reasoning and why you were offended by her remark.

I think it is wrong to suggest, as this diary does, that the Clinton campaign has been orchestrating eliminationist rhetoric about Obama for the past six months.

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[ Parent ]
This discussion is reminding of my problems with Obama supporters (4.00 / 1)
I know that subject line is odd, but not really once I explain what I mean. Often times with them, they take what are public discourse issues and personalize them.

First, let me say, Daily Kos is wrong about the orchestrated part, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't look at Clinton's words in context. If I am understanding Paul- his goal isn't to determine intent, but instead determine impact. Those are two very different things. By analogy one can take a 20 dollar bill inadvertantly or one can steal it, but for the person who needed the money that's now gone- they are still without the money. The lack of money is the context. Here, it doesn't help Clinton to merely state it was inadvertant. Her job is to understand the impact even accidental of the things she says. That's the reality of the job description for the Presidency of the United States.

Second, in the past, when I would get into arguments with Obama supporters they would often fall back on intent when my goal was the contextualization. I feel that's the core difference here. You are trying to understand her intent, but I at least, I suspect Paul, are discussing the context of what her statements could mean to people.

It's not about the physical harm - at least to me- that willa ctually come to Obama. It's about the perception of his strength.  


[ Parent ]
Just One Caveat (0.00 / 0)
Exellent points all the down.  But just one niggle:

It's not about the physical harm - at least to me- that willa ctually come to Obama. It's about the perception of his strength.

For me, it's also about making the world just that much more of a dangerous place, when it really doesn't have to be that way.

So maybe no one takes a shot at him.  But maybe someone who wants to takes a shot at some random black man, instead.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Have You Studied Rightwing Nutcase Culture? (0.00 / 0)
Because David Neiwart has.

We're not talking about single acts of cognition in isolation.  Something that is said once gets repeated thousands and thousands of times, sliced and diced out the wazoo.  It gets reinterpreted by below-the-radar rightwing leaders, and becomes embedded in all manner of different narratives.

As for Olbermann, of course he didn't reduce the harm of what she'd already said--at least not in any substantial way.  What he did was drastically reduce the chances of a repeat performance.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Here's The Thing--We EXPECT More From Clinton (0.00 / 0)
And with good reason.  Several of them, in fact: She's a Democrat.  She's a former First Lady.  She's not arguably insane.

All this means that when she says stuff like this, it has a much greater impact in terms of lowering the bar.  It's not so much that her words would directly influence someone--although that could happen.  But it's more like they enable hundreds of thousands of conversations in which someone can say, "Well, even Hillary Clinton talked about Obama being assassinated."

And the thing is, that's how a whole lot of people will hear it.  Therefore, that's the reality we have to deal with.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
with her experience (0.00 / 0)
this is the important part of the scope of this - she SHOULD and DOES know better. I'm all for giving her the benefit of the doubt. Fine. But when I do I have to stop thinking about who she is, who her husband is, the world she has been living in for twenty years, because when I do I have to say "MY GOD! what is your problem, you know it is insane for you as the second place candidate to talk like this!". That's where the benefit of the doubt ends, and it is significant to realize that in that context of her "experience" that the vast majority of pundits and fellow politicians are being really really generous to Hillary in this in giving her the benefit of the doubt. Nicest of all Barack Obama and the Kennedy Family.  

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
I Certainly Understand This As A Legitimate Point Of View (0.00 / 0)
But embracing it as my own would undercut the point I'm trying to make--that this is not about blame, but about raising consciousness and taking responsibility.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Yeah, thanks for the reminder (0.00 / 0)
which is why I thought your write up here could have distanced itself more from the "Hillary is responsible" tone of the Dkos dairy referenced.

I'm drifting here as I'm reflecting on it all.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


[ Parent ]
no, this is about blame (0.00 / 0)
This is about every bad thing that could happen, every bad cartoon drawn, every bad op-ed piece written, every article in Der Spiegel, being one way or another Hillary's fault.

Just like the ground is being laid to blame Hillary if Obama loses the election.

The blogosphere is sounding more like 1990s talk radio--blame the Clintons for everything.

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[ Parent ]
You Are Just Making Shit Up (0.00 / 0)
I never said any of that.

I said that she thoughtlessly added to a very ugly dynamic.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
sorry, I was referring (0.00 / 0)
to the endless stream of Hillary-bashing diaries at Daily Kos, which certainly do depict her as some kind of evil mastermind who is hell-bent on bringing down our party and even our country.  

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[ Parent ]
And I've Stayed A Million Miles Away From All Of That (0.00 / 0)
This is different.

It's worth your while to sit back and reflect on why I might be saying that.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Are you ironic? (0.00 / 0)
"We EXPECT More From Clinton"
Sry, but somehow I had the impression you expect more from Obama than from Clinton. To be honest, I even felt you sparkle with schadenfreude whenever you can report an alleged misstep of Clinton. Isn't this false concern you show here a bit too much on the hypocritical side?

[ Parent ]
This Just Shows How Little Attention You've Paid (4.00 / 1)
I've said very little about Clinton throughout most of the campaign.  And, in fact, I have said that she is better than Obama on some issues.

I weighed in here because this is indicative of a very dangerous pattern, and it's a pattern that Clinton has stepped right into the middle of.

I have been very critical of Obama as well.

Somehow I'm supposed to think like a four year old, where everyone in the world is a "good man/woman" or a "bad man/woman."

Sorry, I'm not 4 anymore.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
My bad, sry (0.00 / 0)
"I've said very little about Clinton throughout most of the campaign."
Sry, then I must have confused you with other bloggers here at OpenLeft. I should take more notice of who's writing what, but it's a bit difficult at those multi-author blogs.

[ Parent ]
Yeah- Rosenberg (4.00 / 1)
was actually attacked a lot for being "anti Obama" during the heart of the primary. So, this 'he's against Clinton" is your stuff rather than what actually happened.

[ Parent ]
Double standards, anyone? (0.00 / 0)
"So, if Olberman seems over the top to you, but he succeeds in substantially reducing the probability, then his actions weren't over the top at all."
But if Clinton does the same, it's like calling for a killer???

[ Parent ]
No One's Calling Her A Killer (0.00 / 0)
So now you're the one who's over the top!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
And? How does the medicine taste? :D (0.00 / 0)
Onlky joking. No, seriously, what I wrote was "But if Clinton does the same, it's like calling for a killer???". I don't think this can easily be mistaken for accusing someone of "Calling Her A Killer". I mean, even though this isn't my native language, I'm sure there's a clear difference between those statements. And, let's be realistic, that's what all the craze is about, that some Obama supporters see Clintons remark as a hiden call for the assasination of Obama. Isn't this what you're hinting at with your "clout of eliminationism" theory?

[ Parent ]
Nope (0.00 / 0)
its not that Clinton is secretly calling for the assassination of Obama, its that in her role as second place candidate if she makes a comment that can even be marginally INTERPRETED as such causes lots of others to start talking about the possible assassination of Obama and this amps up the possibility of such a reality being manifested.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
Farfetched, imho (0.00 / 0)
"if she makes a comment that can even be marginally INTERPRETED as such causes lots of others to start talking about the possible assassination of Obama and this amps up the possibility of such a reality being manifested."

That's the new rule, that candidates are responible of the most stretched, distorted, logically inconsistant interpretations of their remarks? Well, good luck with that. Btw, where was the outrage when peopel mentioned Booby Kennedy in the discussions about the security lapses during Obama events? Where those concerned people raising the possibility of a killing, too? Don't you see this argument is somewhat ridulous?  


[ Parent ]
its not a stretch (4.00 / 1)
its not hard to interpret Hillary's comment as suggesting she's standing by if Obama gets assassinated. In fact the Hillary camp has said anything can happen and that is why they want to stay in the race. There are enough allusions out there to a collapse of the Obama campaign, in one form or another, that its not a stretch to get to assassination as something that she could benefit from, and that they are standing by to make the most of it.

when it comes to the specter of assassination you bet there is a high burden of responsibility. its not new, and not unreasonable. the stakes are much too high to play loosey goosey with it.

Hillary's remark clearly puts assassination in the context of it as benefit to someone else, namely her. Clearly dangerous. Various discussions of political assassination are more or less dangerous and more or less contribute to a culture which accepts elimination as politically acceptable. You are right that the two items you compare on not the same. But that's not the point. The point is to recognize elimination is powerful and accepted force in the political culture.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


[ Parent ]
Pointless (0.00 / 0)
"The point is to recognize elimination is powerful and accepted force in the political culture."
That point hasn't been proven so far here, and is an overbroad generalisation, imho. Assasination is the seldom exception, not the rule, and the assasins aren't part of the "political culture" in general, but nutcases, belonging to fringe groups. They aren't powerful (if they were, they wouldn't have to use terror in the first place!), and they certainly aren't accepted. Ok, if there really had been a JFK conspiracy, you would have at least one example of elimination driven by a  political culture. But, afaik, it has never been proven (even though I wouldn't be surprised if E. Howard Hunt and "Frank Sturgis" played an active role in it, supported by other right wingers).

But even then, what was behind all those murders, JFK, MLK, RFK, not to speak of all the civil rights activists, was the demonization of political enemies in general that pushed a madman over the edge, not any single remark about past assasinations by a politician. If you want to make people responsible for crazy misinterpretations of their words, then you would have to step in whenever someone publicly demonizes any politician, making him look like public enemy number one. And this shouldn't be narrowed only to politicans remarks, but also to any publication, including, of couse, the blogs. Because you can never know what any would-be-assasin is reading or hearing right now, right? Don't you see that this new level of political correctness is totally over the top? Are you willing to voluntarily curtail the right for free speech in order to prevent dangerous thoughts building up in the twisted minds of nutcases? Far out.


[ Parent ]
No, I Think You're Missing The Bigger Picture Here (4.00 / 1)
The argument isn't that Clinton is covertly calling for Obama's assassination.  It's that she's unconsciously echoing those who are calling for his assassination.

Edmund Burke said, "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."  It's the passivity in the face of evil that's the real problem here.  It's not that she's actually seeking evil--I don't believe that for a second.  It's that she's enabling evil by failing to stand up against it.

What I'm concerned about is not Clinton per se, but Clinton in the total context of our politics today.  And since you can't separate the two....

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Call the unconsciousness crime police! (4.00 / 1)
"It's that she's unconsciously echoing those who are calling for his assassination."
Sry, but imho this is really becoming ridiculous now. I can't follow your logic at all. If there's a logic in this argument at all, I mean.

[ Parent ]
No Comment! (n/t) (0.00 / 0)


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Good men...and women (0.00 / 0)
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
And doing nothing starts with not talking about the dangers. Imho this quote is much more an argument FOR Clinton than against her.  

[ Parent ]
actually, Paul, Obama supporters (0.00 / 0)
at DKos have suggested that she shouldn't be on the ticket because she might try to bump off Obama. And other Obama supporters have recced those comments.

So yes, some people are calling her a killer.

Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.


[ Parent ]
why do you keep citing bloggers (4.00 / 2)
for your frame here? THis isn't what was written here.  

[ Parent ]
Reaction to Iowa (0.00 / 0)
I think the post-Iowa blog post you're talking about is LowerManhattanite's post "Pride and Palpitations" on the Group News Blog.  It's a good explanation of why Obama supporters' kindling was really dry for this latest spark from Hillary.

He now has another post up with his thoughts on this latest gaffe.

And you're right that RFK Junior asked that we give Hillary the benefit of the doubt but it's worth noting that some other members of RFK's family are apparently not so happy with Senator Clinton's comments on RFK.

Voter Genome Project


[ Parent ]
Anonymous Kennedy "insiders" (0.00 / 0)
I'm not too impressed with anonymous sniping to the NY Post.  The Kennedys can stand up for themselves in public if they want to.

You're right about the LowerManhattanite post, that's what I was thinking of vis-a-vis Iowa.  Someone else linked to his current thoughts on the Clinton RFK comment, which I read as well.  It seems to me that some of his argument is predicated on the belief that she was actually saying "I'm staying in the race because someone might kill Obama," which simply doesn't make any sense--if something terrible happened to Obama, someone would have to be the nominee, so why would it matter if she was still running or not?  That's clearly not what she was saying.

But, vis-a-vis an earlier point I made, I understand why people like LM are mad about this.  Whether every point of his argument stands up to the highest logical scrutiny or not, what she said clearly touched an emotional nerve with people like him, and it's fair enough to criticize her for not having realized that.  With myself, a descendant of Holocaust survivors, I can identify with that kind of sensitivity--I think sometimes Jewish people should have at least a bit of leeway to say "just don't go there" whenever someone makes some Nazi or Holocaust analogy that doesn't need to be made (like comparing Israel to the Nazis).  So I can sympathize with the sentiment in this case, that an AA person should have some slack to be angry about any political assassination reference when a black candidate is involved in the discussion, simply on the grounds of "don't go there."


[ Parent ]
Other Clinton Surrogate Talking Point Last Friday (4.00 / 3)
I wanted to point out an additional item that the blogs and media have mostly missed.  Late last week, Clinton Campaign surrogates were very actively lobbying for Clinton to be Obama VP.  Bill has been a strong proponent of this, and had also turned up the heat on this.  Senator Diane Feinstein and Senator Tom Carper were out there making the rounds and Senator Carper on Friday made this comment (http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/05/23/1056424.aspx):

Sen. Tom Carper (D-Del.), a vice chair of the Democratic Leadership Council, said, 'I'll encourage [Obama] to ask, and if he does, for her to say yes.' He added, 'She would be a good president if something ever were to happen to him. She'll deliver a heck of a lot of women in a lot of states.'

The blogs and other news articles have almost completely missed this additional comment on Friday, amidst the whirlwind of the "assassination" comment.  But it seems clear that Carper's "talking point"--undoubtedly aimed at Clinton supporters--was that Clinton would be "on deck, waiting in the wings" and could jump in and be President if "something ever were to happen to him" (and that "something" is often associated with assassination).

I find it very interesting that Carper was pushing this idea, and wonder how many other Clinton surrogates were doing the same.  Was Carper just "off message" or was this actually a campaign "talking point"?  Your article leads me to believe that this was indeed a meme that the Clinton camp has been pushing for months.  Scary, if so...


Obama is a longtime smoker (0.00 / 0)
with a family history of cancer.

My mother (a non-smoker) died of cancer at age 49.

When Bush senior picked Quayle, the question of whether Quayle was capable of being president in case anything happened to Bush was definitely part of the public discussion.

Please don't suggest that anyone who says Obama should pick a VP who is qualified is indirectly calling for him to be assassinated.

Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.


[ Parent ]
The context (0.00 / 0)
Clintonistas angry that her words have been taken out of context and that the outrage is over the top are blocking out the wider context. We are not just referring to who made what gaffe in this particular campaign -- we're talking about deep emotional wounds many still carry after 40+ years. In a sense, it is of a piece with her "hard-working white supporters" which evoked cruel stereotypes that have blighted many lives over many years.

No one is saying that Clinton advocates or wishes for Obama's assassination. It's quite likely she was unaware of how much hurt the RFK comment could provoke. But her recent losing battle with political Tourette's Syndrome, in which thoughts about her possible path to the nomination have bubbled up and in the process evoked some dark realities of American political culture, have served for many people to confirm their suspicions that there are no limits to her ambition. The most eloquent discussion of the RFK comment that I've found is this, from LowerManhattonite at the Group News Blog, who is an astute African American commentator who first broached this subject when Obama won Iowa.

No society that feeds its children on tales of successful violence can expect them not to believe that violence in the end is rewarded. -Margaret Mead


many people are saying Clinton is wishing for (0.00 / 0)
Obama's assassination.

Just go read Delaware Dem's highly recommended diary, in which he talks about her "morbid fantasy":

http://www.dailykos.com/storyo...

Then read through the comments to that diary to see how many Obama supporters do claim that she desires harm to come to Obama, and see how many recs those comments get.

Here is just one other example of a blogger who said Hillary is "voicing a subconscious desire to whack a rival":

http://jdeeth.blogspot.com/200...

There have been many more blog posts and comments to that effect this weekend.

Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.


[ Parent ]
Strange (0.00 / 0)
"No one is saying that Clinton advocates or wishes for Obama's assassination."
And I was so sure I was in a discussion at the GNB blog just recently, where someone did exactly that, arguing that Clinton wishes for Obama's assasination. I guess I have to look this up again. My memory isn't really very good in such small details.

[ Parent ]
You Might Want To Check Your Browser (0.00 / 0)
You're at Open Left now.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Gray was replying to a comment (0.00 / 0)
that inaccurately asserted that no one claims Clinton wishes Obama to be assassinated.

When in fact many, many Obama supporters have been making that very claim all weekend.

Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.


[ Parent ]
HEre in this diary has anyone said that? (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Helloooo? (0.00 / 0)
Scroll up, I was answering to this sentence in "smith"s comment:
"The most eloquent discussion of the RFK comment that I've found is this, from LowerManhattonite at the Group News Blog"
So, you see, my response was totally on topic.

[ Parent ]
An Interesting Parallel (0.00 / 1)
You are twisting people's words here in exactly the same manner that you and others claim no rightwing nut will twist Clinton's words to fuel their murderous fantasies.

Verrrry interesting!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Are you on drugs??? (0.00 / 0)
Hello? Which words do you think I have twisted? First you attack me for being OffTopic, and when I point out that I'm simply answering that other comment up the line, you say that's twisting words? Really, what's the matter with you????

[ Parent ]
Better read the whole thread again, to avoid misunderstandings! (0.00 / 0)
Imho it's crystal clear what I'm talking about. I was referring to the post by "smith", especially these two sentences he wrote:
"No one is saying that Clinton advocates or wishes for Obama's assassination."
"The most eloquent discussion of the RFK comment that I've found is this, from LowerManhattonite at the Group News Blog"

And in my answer, I pointed out that in the discussions at GNB, the blog HE cited as a positive example, there are people writing that Clinton wishes for Obama's assasination. See? He said "no one" is saying that, he didn't say "no one here at OpenLeft". And he brought up GNB. Now, what's supposed to be wrong with my response?

Really, pls tell me where I'm offtopic or even twisting words with my reply. Specifically, pls. Cause imho both you and bruhrabbit totally confused things here.


[ Parent ]
I Didn't Say "No One In The Whole World" (0.00 / 0)
I was clearly referring to our conversation here at Open Left.  The reason should be transparently clear--if someone did make that argument, I would object to it.  (That's the inherent difference between saying "I'm not saying" and "No one is saying".) You were referring to a conversation that I had no part of, and therefore could not object to.

Twisting people's words is apparently so ingrained with you that you don't even notice when you're doing it, even when someone calls you on it.

And that's really the whole point underlying my diary--making people conscious of something that they are inadvertantly contributing to by not reckognizing, and, indeed, not wanting to recognize.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
where's the logical connection? (0.00 / 0)
"You were referring to a conversation that I had no part of, and therefore could not object to."
??? I wasn't answering to you, but to "smith"!!! And what's the point about "a conversation that" you "had no part of"? Isn't it allowed to mention discussions outside of OpneLeft here, or discussions you didn't take part in? Then pls complain at "smith", because he brought GNB up. I really don't understand what's your point here - you falsely accused me of being oftopic, and now complain that I "twisted words"? WHAT WORDS? Are we somewhat talking apples and oranges here?

AGAIN, be specific! I don't have any clue what tf you are complaining about! Reread this whole thread again, pls, and then point out where exactly I allegeldly was wrong.


[ Parent ]
Huh? (0.00 / 0)
"I Didn't Say "No One In The Whole World""

And I never said you did. Really, what's your point???


[ Parent ]
Could you pls explain this? (0.00 / 0)
Because I think that's where the whole cofusion started. What did you want to say here? I was well aware that I was at OpenLleft. My browser worked great. What was your point?

I understood you commented on this sentence I wrote "And I was so sure I was in a discussion at the GNB blog just recently", and wanted to point outn that it's no use discussing GNB stuff here. So, I pointed out that "smith", the commenter directly upthread, had mentioned GNB, and my reponse was meant to contradict his view. After this, "bruhrabbit" came up with the same misunderstanding, so I cited the sentence where "smith" had refferred to GNB. I still don't understand what triggered your attack. I can only conclude you didn't see the whole thread before posting, and so you didn't get the connection.

Is it possible that you're using the "reply" feature of the Menu? Becuase then you can only see the directly preceeding comment, and don't get the whole picture.

One way or the other, this back-and-forth has already gone too long now, and I would really appreciate it if you would post a final, specific statement here, instead of vague, unbased accusations like "twisting words".


[ Parent ]
Grr, now i become cofused, too (0.00 / 0)
Of course, it was "desmoinesdem" who directly answered to you, paul, and correctly rephrased my view as "many Obama supporters have been making that very claim all weekend" (note that noone said commenters at OpenLeft did the same).

I then answered to "bruhrabbit" when he asked  "HEre in this diary has anyone said that?". I then pointed out that I was referring to a discussion at GNB, because "smith" had raise dthis issue.  


[ Parent ]
Even so, the LOGIC is flawed, isn't it? (0.00 / 0)
Does Clinton, or any other potential Obama replacement, actually have to stay in the race in order to step in should the worst happen?

Say whatever you will about "eliminationism", that issue (relevant as it may be) doesn't really get to the basic illogic of citing the possibility of an opponent's assassination as a reason to stay in the race.  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


Disgusting (1.60 / 5)
That these pages would cite a diary from a blog famous for t thriving on outrageous accusations to slime their guys opponent. The f*ing blogs have become worse that the BS tabloids you see packed with obvious lies and doctored photos at the grocery store.

The Orange Satan blogger forgets to add that it was way back in May of 2007 that Obama got Secret Service Protection which is long before any of these comments were made...

Comments by the way in which Clinton made only ONE of and that was the reference to Bobby Kennedy.

ONE! THAT IS ALL SHE MADE. And it was a historical time reference that Kennedy was ALSO still running for the nomination in June. But yet people try to take the comment out of context and if they had any sense of history they would know "At the time of his death, Kennedy was significantly behind Vice President Hubert Humphrey in convention delegate support" (citation: wikipedia)

You see - Clinton was referring to the fact that Bobby was still in it in June even though he was running behind Humphrey! But have you read that in a blog anywhere? Did Paul the resident historian mention that> Hell NO!

But yet the Orange Satan blogger and now Paul try to take the whole list presented here and try to make it as if Clinton herself was involved in all of these comments.

Obama supports have long ago jumped the shark. They forget when Obama was still making his insider deals in the Illinois State Senate that Clinton was making numerous Progressive Liberal votes in the US Senate. They forget that she is the only one who along with Bill ever tried to bring true Universal Healthcare to our nation. Additionally Hillary worked hard in the Clinton WH to help get passed SCHIP legislation. But yet no one wants to recognize her contributions to the Progressive movement that we all cherish. NO! Instead these pages including Chris and Matt ignore all she has done and demonize her and throw her off the bus. It's no wonder why the netroots does not command the respect in DC that they feel they deserve. The don't get the respect because they will turn on a dime to love you one day and then hate you the next.

Hell Chris wote this back in February of 2007:

there is no way I could respect either myself or the movement and support *** in the primary. His campaign will have contributed to the longstanding goals of the conservative movement and DLC-nexus alike to defund, marginalize, ostricize, and otherwise diminish the influence and credibility of the people-powered netroots and grassroots. Such a move would reinforce every elitist, ignorant, double-standard, disinformation campaign ever run against the netroots and the blogosphere.

Now one could safely assume given Obama's trashing of the blogosphere On Fox News and elsewhere and the call for his supporters to defund netroots organizations like David Brock's Progressive Media USA that Cris was talking about Obama. Certainly all the words Chris wrote could apply to Obama.

No but it wasn't Obama he was talking about at all. You see at the time in February 2007 Chris was supporting John Edwards. And those words in the quote above were in reference to Edwards, not Obama. But because of an internal Blogger issue that Chris did not agree with he was ready to throw Edwards under the bus for one issue and not a politically important one at that. It was wholly a blogger issue but Chris was ready to love Edwards one day and hate him the next.

That is exactly what has happened to Clinton. It matters not what a person has done over a lifetime for the Progressive movement.

It also matters not that one day a blogger loves their favorite candidate, then is ready to throw him off the bus because he offend bloggers...

But yet a little more that a year latter that same blogger supports another candidate who offend bloggers!

Bloggerville has become Bizarroville. It is OK to toss aside a lifetime of work of a person for political expediency. It is OK to drum up a bunch of quotes and try to weave them as attributed to a candidate who did not say what is quoted. It is OK to toss any politician off the bus putting more weight one one statement or one vote that the weight put on a lifetime of work. It is OK for a blogger to trash one candidate for offending the blogosphere but yet turn around and support another candidate just as guilty a year later.

In other words it is OK for a blogger to front page a list of lies. It is OK for a blogger to flip-flop on a position but it is not OK for a Pol to flip-flop ever or they catch hell and lose all the points they have scored in the past as if those votes that got us things dear to all of us never happened. Bizarre!


This is an appalling and shoddy hitjob on Hillary. (4.00 / 2)
And yes, I use the word hitjob deliberately, because there is no other word for it.

First, that Guardian-cartoon? It's a prime example of the Media and the OFB portraying Hillary with extremely violent imagery and words. Hillary had to endure that for over a decade now, especially after Vince Foster's suicide. "Hillary will do anything to get her way" and you are deliberately furthering that meme with this hitpiece.
On top of that, blaming that british cartoon subsequently on Clinton is absolute hypocrisy. Hillary has been a victim of such imagery all of her life.

Second, it was Axelrod who tried to make hay of Bhutto's assassination, not Clinton. You subsequently tried to diminish his actions by quoting somebody not related to the Obama-campaign essentially saying 'I can't believe Axelrod meant it that way'.
That's a prime example of how Clinton has been treated for over a decade now: When Clinton says or does something that might be construed offensive, assume the worst. When Obama says or does something that can be construed offensive, assume he didn't mean it that way.

Third: an article in the Speigel (sic)? You've got to be kidding me. And reading the article, for the life of me I can not find anything that would be offensive.
The writer decided to use 'the Google', searching for Clinton, Obama, and Assassination. He finds an article that uses assassination in an article. And that proves his thesis?
How?

All the examples the writer lifted out of context and somehow tried to blame Hillary for creating a violent atmosphere is actually far more proof of showing completely the opposite. That Hillary has been a victim of being described as someone "who would do anything" and using extremely violent imagery, thereby invoking the notion that Hillary would even be capable of using violence.

This is disgusting behaviour of the OFB.


What's wrong with the comment engine right now? (0.00 / 0)
Comments of this story don't show up anymore.

This diary is screwed up - presentation wise. (0.00 / 0)
It says there are 118 comments.  Why can't I see any of them?

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

Something must have been done - maintenance-wise (0.00 / 0)
Whoever is the webadmin of OpenLeft: Good job!

[ Parent ]
I really can't (4.00 / 2)
believe some here are defending Hillary to such an extent.  Do I think she is hoping Obama is killed, no.  But why even bring up assasination?  Her whole comparison of this year to 92 and 68 are so off base, it's not funny.  As others have pointed out, 68 was completely different in length and contests.  She keeps referencing California in 92, there is no California left.  For her to state that she is staying in the race, because anything can happen is completely false.  All she has to do is suspend her campaign, if something truely bad happens to Obama, hello nomination.  She knows she could have suspended her campaign and if some really bad info or death happened to Obama, she would be the nominee.  Why didn't she do this instead of what we have seen from her lately?  Someone please give me a legitimate reason for why she could not have suspended her campaign and still been the nominee had something happened to Obama.  

Yeesh (4.00 / 1)
You people need to find some valium or something.  The diary isn't really about Hillary's comments, nor a "hit job" on her (except insofar as it points out another way that she talks and campaigns like a Republican).  It's about the attitude, mostly from the right but endemic all through politics these days, that the way to deal with someone you disagree with is for them to wind up dead.  It takes forms from mere wishful thinking (although anything a presidential candidate says in that vein veers dangerously close to "Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest!") to outright calls for extermination.

The larger point here is that there are two core approaches to conflict: Eliminationism and Engagement.  Either you force the opposition to give in, or you try and find ways everyone can get what they need.  Traditionally, the Democrats have been dominated by the Engagement philosophy, although not to the exclusion of the use, or ability to use, force, while the Republicans lean much more heavily towards Elimination, dead men don't argue.

Don't get caught up in the tempest of the moment.  That being said, Paul could have given less space to Hillary's statements and their significance, and more to the overall pattern.


You're kidding, right? (0.00 / 0)
Tell me, when was the last time that someone in American politics suggested that a domestic political opponent should wind up dead, even as a joke?  

Considering the insane converage of this very indirect statement, how could this be "endemic" in current politics?



[ Parent ]
Have You Ever Heard of Mike Huckabee? (0.00 / 0)
Video here.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Proves the point. (0.00 / 0)
A  politically irrelevant hack like Huckabee making a joke hardly supports the notion that eliminationism (whatever it is supposed to be) is endemic.


[ Parent ]
Politically IRRELEVANT??? (0.00 / 0)
He was the #2 vote-getter in the GOP nomination process, and in the ongoing SUSA polling as McCain's VP he helps wipe make the race extremely tight unless Edwards holds the #2 spot.  He's anything but irrelevant.

This is but one more indication of how loosely you treat facts when they don't suit your favored narratives.  It's one reason I've cut back in responding to you at length.

Although you frequently do put together cogent argumnets, when someone criticizes them you are as likely to reach for some fantastical "fact" as you are to respond with a cogent response. Thus, there's not much of a percentage in engaging with you deeply in the first place.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Try to keep focused (0.00 / 0)
Your thesis is eliminationism.

You provide no proof of your thesis.

Instead you hang your hat on a comment from Huckabee. I dispute the relevance of Huckabee, but even more, dispute the importance of the comment.  You then think you've won the exchange by trumpeting of the relevance of Huckabee.  I could argue the point, but frankly we are so off track on the example it doesn't matter.

If you want to claim that the joke from Huckabee is serious evidence of eliminationist rhetoric in political debate, you are delusional.  Never mind that the term "eliminationist" is a junk term, so that the debate can't even take a shape.

Then you claim that I have my own narratives.  In fact - that's exactly the point.  I DON'T HAVE A NARRATIVE.  I am anti-narrative.

Because, as I mentioned, being pro-narrative means you are a propagandist.  



[ Parent ]
Not Just Obama (4.00 / 1)
How many people seriously talk in terms of elimination when it comes to Muslims (I suggest you peruse Little Green Footballs or RedState, or listen to some right-wing-radio)?  Or, from the left, about corporate elites or polluting/extractive industry execs?  Listened to PETA's rhetoric about slaughtering and eating animals?

It's not a recent phenomenon, it's something basic to the human condition.  Call it the FMD Option to sanitize it ("There's no Foot and Mouth Disease problem, if every animal with it is dead").  The surest way to deal with a problem from other human beings is to kill them, or failing that to exile them.


[ Parent ]
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