Book Chat: God's Profits, by Sarah Posner

by: Natasha Chart

Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 13:00


In God's Profits: Faith, Fraud, and the Republican Crusade for Values Voters, Sarah Posner details the wild and woolly world of the "prosperity gospel" movement, also known as "Word of Faith". Or, as I came to think of it not too far into the book, Harry Potter Christianity.

It'd be funny, if these spiritual snake oil salesthings weren't regular guests in the White House. Or if they didn't count members of Congress and local governments as close friends. Funny. Ha, ha.

Posner will be with us from 1-3pm today to answer as many questions as she can, and she clearly spent a very long time exposed to these people on your behalf, so come join us in the comments for a chat!

Natasha Chart :: Book Chat: God's Profits, by Sarah Posner
Harry Potter and the Pyramid Scheme

I've always known that many fundamentalists are offended by anything that sounds occult. But why Harry Potter in particular and so fiercely? Was it just because of the popularity? I mean, Sponge Bob Squarepants is a little out there for some of them. Yet after reading God's Profits, I'm convinced that at least some Word of Faith ministries see it as direct competition.

Indeed, Rod Parsley and T.D. Jakes, two Word of Faith televangelists that feature prominently in the book, are reported to have joined in enthusiastically condemning the Harry Potter stories for their sinister spiritual danger. But consider: they really do believe that you can speak an incantation (sort of a prayer, but not quite), perform a ritual action (send them money, or "sow a seed" as they say), and mold reality to your wish for health and wealth.

They tell their audiences this in all seriousness. The money rolls in. The politicians roll in afterwards, looking for endorsements. Money and power, theirs for the speaking into being.

It hardly seems far-fetched that they'd believe anyone could read a children's book, one devoid of religious content, and worry that it'd inspire the idea that it's possible to make the 'magic' happen without God and these clerical intermediaries.

At least J.K. Rowling doesn't claim that if you send her money, you might get a faith healing and a Cadillac. She's just offering good, honest fiction.

I was thinking about how their recipe differs from prayer as other denominations practice it. I'd say in every other faith I know of, Christian or not, you allow for the possibility that God or the powers that be might say 'no' because they disagree with your aims. It's a request, a statement of intent to seek a result. The prosperity gospel teaches people to make demands of God and expect them to be met; an Almighty as a grocery manager who'll sell you whatever you like if you give the cash to the clerk.

In Word of Faith, God's will is considered identical with that of the believers', those of the faithful who tithe big enough. Rod Parsley and John Hagee offer the chance to prove your love for God by paying them off, before paying rent, buying groceries or taking care of medical bills. And many of their audience struggle with their health and their bills, just people do everywhere.

Kristy Beach tells how her mother, Bonnie Parker died of breast cancer in 2004, after spending nearly ten years - without her family's knowledge - waiting for Kenneth and Gloria Copeland's messages to heal her. Beach is certain that Parker became entranced with the Copelands through television. She has calculated that her mother sent tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, of dollars in donations to the Copelands over a ten-year period in hope of a phenomenal healing of her cancer. Notes she left behind indicate that she was always worrying that she wasn't giving enough.

... When Parker revealed her cancer to the family - too late for treatment - and Beach was taking care of her, she asked her mother why she had not sought medical care. According to Beach, her mother "simply said she had not sowed enough seed yet, but when she did she would be healed. - God's Profits

"The average church member in America gives only about 2.6 percent of family income to the local church. ... The numbers tell a shameful story - as the average income of Americans has increased, their spending on anyone but themselves has plummeted. I am compelled to ask: How is God going to use us to impact a generation if He can't even get us to be obedient with finances?" - Rod Parsley, Culturally Incorrect: How Clashing Worldviews Affect Your Future, as quoted in God's Profits

Alongside the usual social conservative checklist, the only sin they're big on preaching against is envy of the wealthy.

The Antichrist

"It's Antichrist, these spirits that hate it when you drive a nice car, look at you when you wear nice clothes," said Mark Hanby, an influential Word of Faith preacher. They teach that wealth is a mark of divine favor, and that its lack is a sign of insufficient faith and obedience.

Maybe they use an expurgated Bible. No beatitudes.

I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. - Matthew 19:24

Hagee is also described as obsessed with the idea that Satan hates the Jews because they're rich, also connecting this other thread of tortured logic to the idea of the Antichrist. He fosters something called Hebraic Christianity, which seems to involve getting his flock to celebrate fake Jewish holidays and load up on Israeli knick knacks ... in preparation for the day when Armageddon, the final battle, will be waged starting in an undivided Jerusalem.

The Antichrist spirit, Hagee's intimated, is the will to advance the peace process in the Middle East. Like Bill Clinton tried to. Hagee viewed his actions as contrary to God.

Much more to Hagee's liking, John McCain and Newt Gingrich's repetition of his insistence in 2006 that World War III was going to be started over the Israel-Lebanon conflict. Posner refers to Israeli Knesset member Benny Elon quotes in the Jerusalem Post, saying that the two politicians got their ideas from a book of Hagee's, and used such incendiary rhetoric "because they think it will lead to Iran getting involved, which they believe will set off World War III."

Clearly, only the Antichrist would be interested in stopping a third World War that Hagee and company believe would obliterate Jerusalem, and its wealthy Jewish inhabitants. It probably won't surprise you to learn that many powerful Word of Faith movement preachers support bombing Iran as soon as possible.

Rebellion

The same Satan who hates the supposed wealth of his Jewish fetish objects, Hagee says, is the source of all criticism of his religious hucksterism. Also criticism of what they consider rightful authority, like their own, like that of men over their wives, like that of believers over the worldly, these preachers do not tolerate. It's like a Russian doll set of interlocking hierarchies.

Posner described how Parsley blamed the Clintons for the lack of a nationwide revival, saying that it didn't happen "because Ahab and Jezebel were sitting in the White House." This criticism was more than an accusation of insufficient Christian faith on both the Clintons' parts. In their worldview, it was an indictment of Hillary Clinton's character as a woman, for being powerful and independent.

Hagee maintains that "the feminist movement today is throwing off authority in rebellion against God's pattern for the family." God's plan, Hagee insists, "is for the wife to submit to the loving husband." Women who are "spirit-filled," he says, won't have a problem submitting. "But if you are controlled by the spirit of rebellion and the spirit of witchcraft and the spirit of carnality, ... get ready for a fight." He commands, "Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands," ... Reiterating the common theme in authoritarian Word of Faith churches - that people who question the inerrancy of the pastor have a "rebellious spirit" - Hagee asserts that people don't read the Bible "because it convicts you of your sin and your carnality and your rebellious lifestyle. ..." - God's Politics

Even when her husband is an unbeliever and makes decisions contrary to their faith, as Hagee's wife, Diana, is quoted saying, "Based on the Word of God, she does not have many options. She must be obedient to her husband's decision."

That's a surefire recipe for abuse, where it exists, to flourish. Which is really the point.

The 'rebellion' women are never supposed to raise against men, parishioners are never to raise against their pastor. And unbelievers are never supposed to raise against God's annointed, which is to say, people like Rod Parsley, or Paul and Jan Crouch of the Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN).

"Kingdom Dominion - Your Right as a Believer" - Title of a video correspondence program offered through Rod Parsley's World Harvest Bible College, where students are taught to "recognize the attributes and manifestations of rebellion and the spirit of submission."

Posner says that around the same time in 2004 when Rod Parsley was criss-crossing Ohio with Kenneth Blackwell to support a gay marriage ban in the state, and fellow prosperity gospel preacher Eddie Long was doing the same in Georgia, the Los Angeles Times revealed that Paul Crouch had made a $425,000 payout to a former chauffeur to hide that he forced the man into having sex with him.

That was the work of Satan. Not, mind you, that Paul Crouch sexually preyed on a down and out employee that he'd hired from an unlicensed drug treatment center owned by TBN. No, it was the work of Satan that it had been discussed. The same for employees of Parsley's church who complained about his financial dealings with them. Or when several of Earl Paulk's female parishioners came forward with stories of sexual manipulation.

Rebellious. Work of Satan. How dare anyone complain about God's annointed, these would-be witches and wizards, conjuring money out of people's pockets.

Any questions?


Sarah Posner has been covering the conservative evangelical beat for a while now, and her previous writing has appeared in such venues as The Nation, The American Prospect, AlterNet, the Washington Spectator and at The Gadflyer. You can read her regular news reviews, The FundamentaList, on the Christian Right at The American Prospect Online.


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Welcome, Sarah! (0.00 / 0)
Thanks for coming, so glad to have you today :)

Thanks, Natasha (0.00 / 0)
It's my pleasure to be here.

[ Parent ]
Impossible things (0.00 / 0)
You talk in the book about the stories these preachers tell about a baby born without a brain that had one miraculously appear after being prayed over, Jan Crouch's undocumented claim that her cancer went away, a story of someone who manifested a third kidney to donate to a family member, all sorts of ridiculous things. How are they able to keep such a hammerlock on people's minds as to keep them believing?

You'd be amazed... (0.00 / 0)
How much people's belief trumps all reason. One of the main elements of the Word of Faith doctrine is "revelation knowledge" -- that you should believed what (you think) God is telling you, either directly or through an "anointed one," someone like Rod Parsley. Or, as Parsley has said, "reason is not required."  

[ Parent ]
Let me just add... (0.00 / 0)
that this is something that is extremely difficult for us to understand, but is extremely common among charismatic evangelicals, who believe in faith healing, miracles, signs and wonders. Just today I was speaking with a charismatic source who very much believes in people taking part in what's known as the New Apostolic Reformation -- a movement where people declare themselves to be prophets, and claim to foresee the future and relate visions and dreams God gives them about the future -- even about political stuff like elections and Supreme Court appointments.

[ Parent ]
There are occasional cases (0.00 / 0)
Sometimes there are medically documented cases of things like spontaneous remission of cancer, and I can see where people could ascribe that to a faith. But we're talking about the materialization of new organs, that's quite a stretch.

[ Parent ]
right (0.00 / 0)
There are documented cases of, I guess you could call it miraculous healing. But when Jan Crouch -- who was clearly revered by the audience at the live event I covered -- says her cancer was healed with no chemo, no radiation, "just Jesus!" it's definitely giving people the wrong message about how to address their medical problems.

[ Parent ]
Deadly (0.00 / 0)
... as noted in the example above.

[ Parent ]
Exactly (0.00 / 0)
but you would be amazed - I can't emphasize enough how many people I met who truly believed in such miracles.

[ Parent ]
Hi Sara! (0.00 / 0)
I'm poking around re the influence of Branham - who apparently cited "The Pyramids" and The Zodiac alongside the Bible, as sources of divine revelation [of course he also promoted the "Serpent Seed" doctrine].

What's your sense of his influence in the whatever-the-heck-one-might-choose-to-call-it stream of Neo-Pentacostalism Hagee's in ?

The emergent 'tradition' seems to me like a classic form of gnostic Christian heresy somewhat comparable (but maybe not as nice) to the syncretic Cathar tradition that was brutally suppressed by the Catholic Church in the 1st Inquisition. It has many of the same doctrines - purification through praxis, ascent, etc.

Best, BruceW


[ Parent ]
Hard work (4.00 / 1)
I was amused by this bit ...

Hagee maintains that "you get it [money] by the sweat of your brow and you keep it by tithing and you increase it by sowing fertile seed into the Kingdom of God ..."

These people are the ultimate Money for Nothing people, getting cash from working class people who are likely to really know what it means to sweat for their pay. They take vacations in the church-provided jets, have luxurious homes tax-free, hire relatives at lavish salaries to do very little, and use very little of their money provably for charity.

How much do they typically make, anyway?


secrets (0.00 / 0)
Under the IRS code, churches don't have to file publicly available tax returns -- and the Word of Faith churches do not, unlike many other churches, make their financial statements public voluntarily. So it's unknown how much these guys really make.

Hagee, though, until 2003 had his outfit organized as a regular non-profit. After the local San Antonio paper reported that he was making $1M/yr (making him the highest paid non-profit executive in San Antonio), he reorganized it as a church. But he's probably not even one of the highest paid ones, and also many of these televangelists get lots of other perks aside from a salary -- planes, real estate, fancy cars, etc. That's why the Senate Finance Committee is investigating 6 of them (Copeland, Meyer, Hinn, Dollar, White, and Long).

Copeland recently bragged that in the 40 year history of his ministry, it has brought in one BILLION dollars.  


[ Parent ]
Do you discuss (0.00 / 0)
snake oil salesmen like Joel Osteen, he of the $100-million-plus renovation of the old Houston Summit/Compaq Center into his own temple to preach a vaguely-Christianized-Tony-Robbins-style faith?

I still can't understand how that guy can sell tens of millions of books. It's the biggest load of empty words and phrases I've ever heard.


Osteen (0.00 / 0)
I discuss Osteen a little bit in the book, but since I was focusing on the figures who had injected themselves into GOP politics, he wasn't the focus of my reporting. But he's very much part of the WoF movement (although he's not as heavy handed as many of the others in demanding his followers give him money -- and why should he? he gets so much free advertising for his books on his TV show and is making money hand over fist that way).

One little known fact that I discuss briefly in the book is that his brother, Justin, is a consultant who designs executive compensation packages for preachers.  


[ Parent ]
Interesting (0.00 / 0)
That last little nugget is awesome. But, hey, I guess preachers need Cadillacs too, right?

Thanks for the responses. I look forward to picking up the book.  


[ Parent ]
That blew my mind (0.00 / 0)
To be able to support yourself as a consultant doing something like that means there's quite a bit of demand for it. Though there are a lot of denominations where that sort of lifestyle for ministers, supported by donations that are supposed to maintain the church and go to good works, is anathema. This really doesn't characterize the mainstream of Christianity.

[ Parent ]
book sales (0.00 / 0)
And as you might imagine, the book sales are an indication of how many people consume his Christ-lite bromides for successful living.

[ Parent ]
Diversity (0.00 / 0)
You point out that people of all ethnicities are at equal opportunity for being fleeced, certainly considering their international broadcasting reach, but especially with the movement's ready embrace of African American preachers from the Charismatic movement. You give several examples of the way they subtly exploit memories of segregation, as well as current poverty, in their largely female audiences.

This is a demographic that trends strongly Democratic and generally supports collective action solutions, but they're making inroads with a dogma that's actively hostile to the idea that anyone but the individual is to blame for their situation, that it's all up to how faithful you are.

How well is this really taking hold in minority communities?


great question (0.00 / 0)
It's worth pointing out that a lot of these televangelists have their religious roots in revivals where blacks and whites worshipped side by side. So someone who's white, but has a huge black following (like Parsley, or Hagee, or Paula White) is part of a long and shared religious tradition. So it's not necessarily deliberate that they're "reaching out to" black worshippers, it's just that they emerge out of the same religious tradition.

And while there is a small slice of the African-American evangelical community that is very, very conservative, many of them are bipartisan. Look at Jakes -- he was close with Bush, and now is praising Obama (although he claims he won't be endorsing). A lot of his followers are not reflexively Republican, although they do hold a lot of conservative beliefs, esp. about LGBTQ issues, abortion. And while they might be conservative on other issues -- such as who is to blame for their economic lot -- I don't know that that makes them vote Republican, or whether they are a constituency that pulls Dems to the center.


[ Parent ]
Interesting (0.00 / 0)
You did make the distinction between the charismatics, who are more your focus, and the more staid, traditional evangelicals like Dobson. Though I remember watching televangelist broadcasts as a child in the 80s, my dad really disapproved of many of their doctrinal points but studied them for ideas on sermon style, and the major ones seemed pretty dang White back then.

Though, on a tangent, it's curious to me that Tammy Faye's old heresy of extending Christian love to gay AIDS patients and Carlton Pearson's relatively recent heresy of saying that he doesn't think there's a Hell, sparked far more anger and retribution in the televangelist community than the outright breaking of what they lay out as a very clear cut personal morality code by people like Crouch and Paulk. It's like the only transgression they really care about is being too kind.


[ Parent ]
Great point (0.00 / 0)
And interesting, back in the 80s, there were far fewer black televangelists (Pearson and Fred Price, mainly), and it was Pearson who was responsible for elevating Jakes -- who in turn helped the careers of other black televangelists, like Eddie Long. Yet Pearson's "heresy" caused Jakes to completely abandon him and never speak to him again (at least they had not spoken when I interviewed Pearson about a year and a half ago). Yet in the face of all the scandals with the Crouches and the Paulks, Jakes was silent, and even affirmatively props up the Crouches. Of course there's a lot of money at stake in propping up the Crouches, who own the TV network where all these guys are broadcast. With regard to Paulk, Jakes just chose to say nothing at all, even after it was divulged (after my book was published) that Paulk had fathered his own "nephew" (i.e., slept with his brother's wife. There IS something in the Bible about that, isn't there?)

[ Parent ]
Coveting (0.00 / 0)
I think their Bibles have also been expurgated of passages re coveting. It seems actually like a central tenet of their philosophy: covet thy neighbor's good fortune hard enough, and God will make it yours.

[ Parent ]
Are there any hopeful signs? (0.00 / 0)
Sarah, I was wondering if you could point to any hopeful signs, specifically prominent voices in the religious community who are speaking out against this sort of fleecing. The reason I ask is that it will probably take credible figures from inside the community to start putting an end to, or at least start a reduction of, this constnat fleecing. I mean, a secular, progressive athiest like myself could speak out about it, but I probably wouldn't be very convincing to the people who are getting ripped off.  

Sadly not effective (4.00 / 1)
I completely agree with you that changing how this movement operates economically (if not theologically) would require other Christians to take a strong stand. But every time there is a move in that direction, there is a countermove by the members of the movement itself and their supporters to defend them.

Case in point: When Chuck Grassley launched his investigation of the six last fall, there was immediate outcry from the religious right: it's denominational discrimination (Grassley is a Baptist, and they're Pentecostal); it's scary gov't interference in the church; it's just a slipperly slope until the government is meddling in all affairs of church doctrine!

More centrist/progressive evangelicals welcome the Grassley investigation because they think the prosperity gospel is a blight on their religion. But they're loathe to say so publicly. And the recently launched Evangelical Manifesto was vaguely critical of it -- but the drafters refused to name names or specifically identify problems, either in the document itself or in interviews afterwards.

There's verses in the Bible that say that Christians should not speak ill of other Christians -- you first confront them, and if they don't reform, bring along a few witnesses, and confront them again, and then go public if they don't reform -- but nobody's really doing that. A lot of people are disturbed by it, and some people write books and articles about it, but there's no organized initiative to put an end to it.

The movement's less fire-and-brimstone proponents are even treated as heroes by Democrats. Nancy Pelosi attended the opening of Osteen's new Compaq center stadium church, and Barack Obama thinks that T.D. Jakes is one of the greatest Christian leaders in the country.
 


[ Parent ]
Oy (0.00 / 0)
The movement's less fire-and-brimstone proponents are even treated as heroes by Democrats. Nancy Pelosi attended the opening of Osteen's new Compaq center stadium church, and Barack Obama thinks that T.D. Jakes is one of the greatest Christian leaders in the country.

I guess there are always people who are going to be fleeced, and who want easy answers to difficult questions. However, it is pretty sad that even Democratic "leaders" bow over to such figures.

Thanks for your work in bringing this all to light. It has to start somewhere.  


[ Parent ]
Yes, I Wanted To Hear More About Obama And Jakes (0.00 / 0)
I mean, Jim Wallis is bad enough, but Jakes makes Wallis seem like Erasmus.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Hi Paul! (0.00 / 0)
As I discuss in the book, Obama and Jakes have been speaking regularly by phone for a while now, and Obama praised him (and Rick Warren) as the greatest Christian leaders living out their faith. And Jakes was at the meeting Obama had w/ Christian leaders a couple of weeks ago, and Jakes has been very publicly praising (although not endorsing, mind you!) Obama.

Obama is like the anti-Wright. In fact, many pastors coming out of the more prophetic, social justice church tradition (including Wright) have criticized the prosperity gospel because it focuses the believer on themselves, rather than the community.

Here's a funny thing, made possible only in our hyper-religious-ized campaign season. Jakes abandoned Carlton Pearson after he renounced the concept of hell (even though Pearson is largely responsible for catapulting Jakes to fame, by highlighting him during his conference when Jakes was just an obscure West Virginia preacher), and Pearson has been the subject of derision for being a universalist ... same criticism Dobson et al are lobbing at Obama.



[ Parent ]
Yeah, Pearson's The Real Joker In The Deck (0.00 / 0)
I was just hoping for some specific content re Obama's relations with Jakes.

I remember you saying they talked a lot, but obviously we're not the ones listening in on that.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
That's a problem. (0.00 / 0)
Obama needs to be far more transparent than he's been about what's going on behind closed doors with all his pastor meetings. I've written about that on TAPPED.



[ Parent ]
Christian Zionists/Hebraic Christianity (4.00 / 1)
Visiting Hagee's Hebraic church sounds like it was a real through the looking glass experience for you. To me, it sounds positively embarassing, like Madonna's gimmicky, public experimentation with Kabbalah magnified several times over.

You say they're taking up these modified Jewish customs so that they'll be ready when Jesus, whom they describe as a Rabbi, comes back. Why would they think he plans to herald his return by the destruction of the real thing, if what he wants is a faithful population of practicing Jews?


Oy (4.00 / 1)
Hagee is often talking out of both sides of his mouth on this: on the one hand, most of his writings are clear that any non-Christians are going to perish at the end, yet he also claims that everyone will really be Jewish at the end. But of course Jewish followers of Jesus, i.e., Christians. He's just saying they won't be celebrating all those pagan holidays (Christmas and Easter) but rather the Jewish holidays as their Messiah, Jesus, tells them to do.

Remember what else Hagee says about what it will be like when Jesus comes back: "When Jesus returns for his millennial reign, the righteous are going to rule the nations of the earth. When Jesus Christ comes back, he's not going to ask the ACLU if it's alright to pray, he's not going to ask the churches if they can ordain pedophile bishops and priests, he's not going to ask if it's all right to put the Ten Commandments in the statehouses, he's not going to endorse abortion, he's going to run the world by the word of God and the world will never end. It's going to become a Garden of Eden, and Christ is going to rule it."


[ Parent ]
Antidemocratic (4.00 / 1)
You shared the quote from Parsley's World Harvest Church bylaws, which grant him lifelong, absolute control of the ministry, as saying that democracy "is not God's way." This was something that also came up a few times in Sharlet's book, The Family, which I believe you're familiar with, as a belief of that powerful, Christian activist sect.

It even comes out in Hagee's reinterpretation of Jewish holidays. You describe his spin on Passover traditions as having completely discarded the meaning they have in the Jewish faith, of freedom from slavery, and replaced them instead with three "feasts" themed around redemption, moral obedience and yet more tithing.

Absolutely everything is centered around this authoritarian message, and I'd recommend again as someone did in comments when Sharlet was here a few weeks ago, to check out the online version of Bob Altemeyer's landmark description of The Authoritarians, in case this sort of all-encompassing control-freakery isn't something all our readers haven't experienced up close.


[ Parent ]
Authoritarianism (0.00 / 0)
Yes, although Jeff was talking about an elite strand of Christian fundamentalism, and the people I discuss are a more grassroots, populist strand, the idea of Jesus as an authoritarian figure, rather than a seeker of peace and social justice, is one that both share.

Obedience is a theme that comes up frequently in Jeff's book, and mine as well. Your faithfulness is demonstrated through your obedience to this authoritarian God (and pastor) -- by not questioning them ("Touch not mine anointed ones, and do my prophets no harm"), and by giving them your money. After all, if you don't tithe, you're stealing God's money and will live under a financial curse.

So that relates to why people believe in the faith healing and so forth. They're scared not to.


[ Parent ]
Curses (0.00 / 0)
And yet more magical thinking. As though Rod Parsley is some suited up version of the stereotyped village witch doctor with the power to hex.

The way they talk ominously of people being under the church's "covering" or not, like God's an ethereal Al Capone with these localized capos ('nice soul you've got there, shame if anything were to happen to it'), is bizarre. I'm sure you're right that the people in their churches really believe, but it's hard for me to accept that it's not a completely cynical performance on the part of these preachers.


[ Parent ]
"Protection Racket Gospel" (0.00 / 0)
That's what one of my sources, who used to play in the band at a WOF church, calls it. I do think that although it probably is a cynical performance for a lot of the preachers, on another level they've convinced themselves to really believe it. After all, look at these people who come to hear me preach every week and turn on their TVs to watch me. I must be doing something right.

[ Parent ]
Free Market (0.00 / 0)
You describe Star Parker as having had a "simultaneous conversion to Christianity and free-market conservatism" and many other instances of financially conservative, though perhaps punitive is a better word, political ideals intersecting with Word of Faith teachings. They excoriate Welfare and Social Security, support tort reforms that would make it harder for people to access the courts, share advice with each other on how to avoid paying taxes, and speak very ill in general of government promoting the public welfare.

Did this philosophy come from political conservatism predating the movement or had it always been there? What's the relationship between these overlaps?


Free market (0.00 / 0)
As Jeff shows in his book, the embrace by elite evangelicals of free market ideology predated the marriage of convenience between the religious right and the GOP in the 1970s. So I do think the strand of free market dogma post-New Deal did influence the post-WWII revivals to emphasize economic self-reliance -- your faith will determine your economic lot.

However, I also think that during the Reagan era, when social safety nets were being dismantled, together with the greed mentality of that period, made WoF more attractive -- it justified greed in the name of God, and made the individual in charge of determining their economic lot. It doesn't matter what the government does in terms of policy, if you have enough faith, you will be be ok. As Parsley has said, poverty is evidence of lack of faith in God. It's the ultimate Republican mantra: not only are you personally responsible for whether you attain wealth, only the godly and the faithful will succeed at it.


[ Parent ]
Do they read their Bibles? (4.00 / 1)
It's been a long time since I watched a televangelist service and I have to wonder if, when you were there, you saw much scripture-flipping. I don't think my childhood church, odd though it may have been in some ways, was too unusual in encouraging us to read the Whole Thing.

Do they hope no one will notice, do they explain the beatitudes, or the 'as you have done to the least of these' passages, away? Do they skip those parts?

Back when most people were illiterate, churches could get away with saying whatever they wanted. And blast that Gutenberg, but they lost that monopoly on knowing what was in the actual text. Even the Puritan ethic which correlates faith and hard work isn't in blatant disregard of these passages.

Anyway, this, I don't get.


[ Parent ]
Proof-texting and selective literalism (4.00 / 1)
Basically what they do is pull out verses that (interpreted in their own way, not using hermeneutics) support their premises: so for example, in the Gospel of John, there's a passage about "prosper," which in the original Greek meant "do well" but they conveniently interpret as "get rich." I've had people tell me with a completely straight face that Jesus was a wealthy man who wanted his followers to be wealthy as well. So, yes, they disregard a lot of what is in the Gospels and in fact depend pretty heavily on the Old Testament, which is loaded with agrarian references that they claim support their seed-faith theology (sow a seed, i.e, pay the pastor, and reap a harvest, i.e, get a financial return).

[ Parent ]
It's funny (4.00 / 1)
I'm a non-practicing, pretty much atheist, but definitely agnostic Catholic these days. That is, I'm a confirmed Catholic, but I don't believe in the mystical nonsense anymore (apologies to anyone that's offended by that statement).

Still, the part of the religion that sticks with me is the message of how Christ lived -- the churches I went to had priests that focused almost exclusively on Christ's acts and his message of inclusion. I guess I'm realizing now that that may have been very different that what other Catholics and definitely what non-Catholic Christians were taught. But I remember the Beatitudes, and the lessons/parables of how Christ treated the least among us -- and those are lessons that I still hold dear to my heart in spite of losing my faith.

Yet, all we ever seem to see from the so-called Christian Religious Right is a politics and faith of hate and division, almost the inverse of what I remember Christianity to be about -- they spout only Old Testament fire and brimstone and eye-for-an-eye and then proceed straight to the acid haze of Revelation. Me, I found all that stuff outright boring (except for some of the Poetry in the Old Testament) and baffling.

These people that call themselves Christians would never vote for Christ were he alive today, and would downright malign and excoriate him for his liberalism. It's the central contradiction I cannot figure out.


[ Parent ]
Tele-Evangelism as Ponzi-Scheme? (0.00 / 0)
So obvious...
wish i'd said that...
Well-said, well-observed, well done!

You know, of course, there will be NO abatement of Faith-Based Initiatives (4.00 / 1)
under BHO, don't you.

Barack Obama thinks that T.D. Jakes is one of the greatest Christian leaders in the country.

there will be no fortifying the wall between church and state. There will be no reduction if the funds meted out to the raving fucktards wailing against Christian principlers in the name of the Profit Jesus.

That gravy-train gonna keep on rolling...hallelulia, great GAWD, I got my money!


Thanks again, Sarah (0.00 / 0)
It's been illuminating and I'm so glad I got a chance to read your book. It's quite a wealth of interviews and references that I'm sure will come in handy down the road.

You're welcome to stay as long as you like, and of course to come back, but is there anything you'd like to add in closing as we come to the end of our scheduled time?


Thanks again for having me (0.00 / 0)
Thanks Natasha, OpenLeft for hosting, and to everyone who participated. I'd love to come back anytime and talk about any of these issues, including religion in the 2008 campaign. Cheers!


[ Parent ]
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