Lakoff Sheds Light On Obama's Problematic Move To The Center

by: Paul Rosenberg

Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:00


Yesterday, I wrote a diary, "Bad Politics--Not Just Policy--As A Matter of Principle For Obama", in which I argued that Obama was intentionally running away from majoritarian positions in order to have a narrower majority, but be free from the likes of us.

In a comment, david mizner wrote

that there's a cautiousness bordering on paranoia in the Obama camp. Unsettled by the he's a Muslim emails campaign, Jeremiah Wright, the attacks on his patriotism, they place debunking these attacks above all else.

I hope he's right, and that I'm just being paranoid, too.  But I think it's important to attempt a theoretical understanding of why Obama might be really committed to a path that repeatedly puts him sharply at odds with us.  No one would be happier than me to discover that this analysis is not necessary.  But the past two weeks argue fairly strongly that it is.

To that end, here I want to tighten up the analytical foundation behind an important link in this argument. In that diary, I quoted approvingly from a column by Arianna Huffington, on the practical folly of the direction that Obama was taking--a column that was attacked by one commentator, kanzeon, starting here with an ad hominem attack on her:

Obama hasn't shifted his strategy.  Arianna is smart enough to understand that.

She's an old Republican who hated Clinton and wanted to exert her power.  So she played along with Obama's game.

Despite his hamfisted approach, kanzeon is taking on a soft target, since Arriana is not fully articulating the background of her argument. Rather than get into an argument about she wrote, I want to go back to the underlying source, which I know that Huffington knows well, and that is the work of George Lakoff.

While Lakoff has repeatedly praised Obama for his intuitive understanding of framing, he has written analyses that can enable us to make our own judgments and analyses of how Obama may be failing in particular ways--particularly right now.  That, in turn can help us refine our understanding of how Lakoff's analysis can both be refined and integrated into a broader framework of political analysis.  All this I explain and explore on the flip....

Paul Rosenberg :: Lakoff Sheds Light On Obama's Problematic Move To The Center
As Lakoff explains in Don't Think of An Elephant, Democrats commonly make the mistake of thinking of a campaign in terms of marketing campaigns, with the candidate as product and issue positions product features.  This is a losing approach, and it appears to be the logic that Obama has been following in his recent right turn.

It contrasts sharply with the very different approach he took during the primary, as Lakoff exaplained, precognitively, in this passage.  The details are not the same, since Obama is actually embracing positions that do not necessarily poll well with the American people, but they are popular with Versailles, and his campaign appears to be operating as if they were poll-supported. (Emphasis is mine):

A third mistake is this: There is a metaphor that political campaigns are marketing campaigns where the candidate is the product and the candidate's positions on issues are the features and qualities of the product. This leads to the conclusion that polling should determine which issues a candidate should run on. Here's a list of issues. Which show the highest degree of support for a candidate's position? If it's prescription drugs, 78 percent, you run on a platform featuring prescription drugs. Is it keeping social security? You run ona platform featuring social security. You make a list of the top issues, and those are the issues you run on. You also do market segmentation: District by district, you find out the most important issues, and those are the ones you talk about when you go to that district.

It does not work. Sometimes it can be useful, and, in fact, the Republicans use it in addition to their real practice. But their real practice, and the real reason for their success, is this: They say what they idealistically believe. They say it; they talk to their base using the frames of their base. Liberal and progressive candidates tend to follow their polls and decide that they have to become more "centrist" by moving to the right. The conservatives do not move at all to the left, and yet they win!

Why? What is the electorate like from a cognitive point of view? Probably 35 to 40 percent of people-maybe more these days-have a strict father model governing their politics. Similarly, there are people who have a nurturant view governing their politics, probably another 35 to 40 percent. And then there are all the people in the "middle."

Notice that I said governing their politics. We all have both models, either actively or passively. Progressives see a John Wayne movie or an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie, and they can understand it. They do not say, "I don't know what's going on in this movie." They have a strict father model, at least passively. And if you are a conservative and you understand The Cosby Show, you have a nurturing parent model, at least passively. Everyone has both worldviews because both worldviews are widely present in our culture, but people do not necessarily live by one worldview all of the time.

So the question is, Are you living by one of the family-based models? But that question is not specific enough. There are many aspects of life, and many people live by one family-based model in one part of their lives and another in another part of their lives. I have colleagues who are nurturant parents at home and liberals in their politics, but strict fathers in their classrooms. Reagan knew that blue-collar workers who were nurturant in their union politics were often strict fathers at home. He used political metaphors that were based on the home and family, and got them to extend their strict father way of thinking from the home to politics.

This is very important to do. The goal is to activate your model in the people in the "middle." The people who are in the middle have both models, used regularly in different parts of their lives. What you want to do is to get them to use your model for politics -to activate your worldview and moral system in their political decisions. You do that by talking to people using frames based on your worldview.

While Huffington uses different terms, this is clearly what she's talking about in terms of Obama abandoning his brand.  His brand is articulating a progressive worldview--which Lakoff has repeatedly praised him for--albeit in his own voice, and without explicitly identifying with other progressives.  His shift now is not just to explicitly attacking progressives, but also to latching onto a set of specific issues employing the product placement mindset. It is a profound shift, and Lakoff's passage above  explains why.

So how can someone who does such a good job of intuitively framing things in phase one, during the primary, revert so sharply in phase two, since the primary ended?

That's a big subject, but for the most part it can be summed up quite simply: For the past 40-odd years, the right has been engaged in an all-out Gramscian culture war/war of position--a battle to control our defining cultural institutions, while the left has not.

One result of this is that Obama himself is severely disoriented when it comes to the nature of what's meant by "left" and "right" and the relationship between them. He has, to a remarkable extent and apparently unconsciously, internalized a wide range of rightwing frames, including stereotypical images of a progressive fringe that is beyond the pale (1970s-style anti-military love-ins, anyone?)  This is why, for example, he can defend the right to dissent in a speech about patriotism, while at the same time recycling rightwing myths about how the anti-war DFHs did things "that remain[s] a national shame to this day."

In short, there is a severe disconnect between whatever progressive heart Obama may possess, and a head that's grown up in a world dominated by rightwing ideological fantasies.  


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Can you comment on Ed Kilgore's analysis? (0.00 / 0)
Paul,

I linked to this in a "quick hit," but would be interested in your take about what Ed Kilgore has said about Obama's "move to the center": http://www.thedemocraticstrate...

I disagree with a lot of what he wrote, but I also think it's instructive to see the point of view of someone I understand to represent the more "centrist" wing of the party.

In particular, note that Ed believes that Obama's post-primary moves are entirely consistent with his approach during the primary.  Also, note his comment that only one candidate has successfully run by appealing just to the base in the past 50 years.

Again, I'm not arguing in support of his viewpoint, but would just like to hear your analysis.


One candidate in 50 years? .. (4.00 / 2)
Who is that? ..  Ed is a DLC guy so of course he is going to spin it as looking favorably upon the DLC view of things.  Does Ed take into account that more people now self identify as Democrats?

[ Parent ]
He was referring to Bush (4.00 / 1)
And no, I don't think he takes into account the increased edge Democrats have in registration.

[ Parent ]
Kilgore analysis is flawed for another reason .. (4.00 / 1)
Ray-gun had to work with a Democratic Congress .. going back to Nixon and LBJ .. I have no idea what they did or didn't do campaign wise  .. and whether they appealed to some supposed "middle" .. so no .. Kilgore doesn't have much of a point

[ Parent ]
Reagan didn't appeal to the "middle" (4.00 / 3)
He moved the middle to the right, in effect.  He ran against the Left when he ran for CA Governor in 1966, promising to "clean up the mess in Berkeley," meaning peaceful, if occasionally unkempt and uncouth, student protestors.  He ran for President as a true Western conservative, the inheritor of Barry Goldwater's mantle, again against the Left as well as the Dem Party in general.  And the Senate went to the GOP in 1980, and back to the Dems only in 1986, if memory serves.  

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
Thanks .. (4.00 / 1)
and this further proves that Kilgore really doesn't know what he is talking about .. and is only trying to stamp his belief on everything .. whether it is the truth or not

[ Parent ]
"Moving to the Middle" (0.00 / 0)
Somehow lost a comment in mid-writing, so hope I'm not double-posting here.  

Since I'm coming in for some personal abuse on this thread for things I actually didn't say, thought I'd respond.  

(1) I in no way, shape or form advocated a "move" to the "middle," "center," or "right" by Obama.  Indeed, as one commenter noted, my first argument was that a lot of the talk about Obama's "move" is based on perceptions and context, not some change of strategy.  You can agree or disagree about Obama's positions on FISA or anything else (I happen to disagree with his "revised" FISA position), but it's a big leap to assume this represents some politically dicated "shift."  Moreover, I explicitly said it's a mistake to locate swing voters in some sort of ideological "center," and I included "centrists" as well as folks on the left in my criticism of kibitzers who are telling Obama he has to identify with their strategic point of view.  So much for the idea that I'm presenting some sort of DLC take on the subject; I'm not.

(2) What I did defend, as a good idea in itself, and as something that's totally consistent with Obama's strategy and message from day one, was the proposition that he should reach beyond the party ranks for votes.  And contra what I read here, I not only acknowledged the exceptionally positive partisan landscape, but said Obama might well be able to win without much of a swing voter effort.  But I also said his potential as a transformative progressive president might well depend on a bigger win and a broader coalition.

(3) I criticized Huffington for lecturing Obama that he shouldn't even think about swing voters.  I probably shouldn't have dragged Lakoff's name into this, but I did use the term "Lakoffian" rather than "Lakoff" because his work is often sloppily cited by those who simply don't want to have to deal with swing voters other than as a secondary target of a base mobilization message.  Read Huffington's piece again, and tell me she isn't expressing contempt for those "fickle" swing voters.  

(4) All the arguments about how Reagan won by "moving to the right" and so forth gets back to point one: we're talking about party, not ideology.  Reagan did very definitely target Democrats; hence the famous term, "Reagan Democrats."

Hope this clarifies things a bit.

Ed Kilgore


[ Parent ]
I find your comment confusing (0.00 / 0)
There are several reasons, but I will briefly cover two:

a) FISA. I don't understand what you are saying about context because the context is that this comes from the rightwing party (the GOP) and a product of right wing interest, the telecom industry's lobbying to protect big business interest. Those are the two variables driving this. Security seems secondary.  Democrats only seem to have went along with it because they feel threatened by their rightward flank about security issues, but at the end of the day, this has more to do with the show of security rather than actual security. That's the context. Do you think if you asked these people in private what they thought- would they all say that they are voting for this because they believe in amnesty?

b) With Reagan, it isn't he was party or idealogical. He was both. So, I don't understand your last statement about Reagan at all. I would actually argue he was three things- party, idealogical and demographics (the Southern Strategy).  


[ Parent ]
I find your comment confusing (0.00 / 0)
There are several reasons, but I will briefly cover two:

a) FISA. I don't understand what you are saying about context because the context is that this comes from the rightwing party (the GOP) and a product of right wing interest, the telecom industry's lobbying to protect big business interest. Those are the two variables driving this. Security seems secondary.  Democrats only seem to have went along with it because they feel threatened by their rightward flank about security issues, but at the end of the day, this has more to do with the show of security rather than actual security. That's the context. Do you think if you asked these people in private what they thought- would they all say that they are voting for this because they believe in amnesty?

b) With Reagan, it isn't he was party or idealogical. He was both. So, I don't understand your last statement about Reagan at all. I would actually argue he was three things- party, idealogical and demographics (the Southern Strategy).  


[ Parent ]
Having Heard Arianna For Years (0.00 / 0)
I just think she was being a bit lazy in expressing herself, since I know that (1) her primary contempt is for political manipulators, (2) she's well aware that how voters act is an interactional matter, and (3) she's also conversant with Lakoff's work.

I think it's entirely possible that she thinks some swing voters are irredemable fickle, and not worth the effort (given how much money is spent on trying to persuade them, vs the relative cheapness of finding new voters, there's a compelling point to be made here), while others are fickle only so long as they are treated like consumers rather than citizens.  That is pretty much my view, and it's my sense from hearing and reading her over the years that we agree on this.  But I don't want to base my arguments on presumptions, so I'm not making that argument here.

As someone who first encountered Lakoff's work in 1989, met him personally in 1994, and has reviewed half a dozen of his books since 1996--including one on mathematics, and one on philosophy--I try my damnedest not to cite him sloppily.  This is particularly so in this case, as I'm setting up an argument that goes against some of the generally enthusiastic attitude he's taken toward Obama, because I think that there's a lot more complicated stuff going on here.

Most importantly, for the purpose of the line of argument I've been developing for myself, the passage I've quoted here from Don't Think of An Elephant is precisely what I had in mind when I read Arianna's column.  Now, I'm not saying that everyone else should have read her that way.  But I am saying that since it's the foundation of the way I read her, why not just cut to the chase?

So, trying to interpret Arianna's words about swing voters at this point constitute a red herring for me.  I'm happy to stand on my own two feet and say that (1) this kind of swing voter strategy violates Lakoff's prescription, (2) Lakoff is correct in making this prescription, and (3) Arianna's point about trashing the brand is perfectly valid, regardless of how one reads her comments about swing voters.

I am a big boy, and I am perfectly capable of distinguishing between politics that I like or don't like and strategies that I think are boneheaded or not.  I have always disagreed with Obama's basic political analysis, while at the same time recognizing its practical potential.  What we're seeing now is a compounding of the worst aspects of his political analysis leading to a situation that damages his practical potential.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Who's Talking About "Appealing Just To The Base" (4.00 / 5)
Why do we have to respond to every stupid straw man argument in the book?

Because they have nothing else to say?

Why not save our breath for debating with folks who have actual arguments to make?

But in Kilgore's case he's even worse than your normal straw man guy, since he throws out all sorts of pseudo-sophisticated jazz that's equally irrelevant.

Take this, for instance:

Huffington's horror at swing-voter pandering, and her manifest contempt for swing voters themselves, probably reflects the fashionable but very dubious Lackoffian belief that swing voters are cognitively confused, perhaps even stupid or amoral people who can only be appealed to by an even more strongly expressed partisan "frame."

Lackoff has never said anything remotely like this.  It's folks like Kilgore who hold all voters in contempt who just love to project their contempt onto others.

Being a bi-conceptual doesn't necessarily make you confused, and it certainly doesn't make you stupid or immoral.  Kilgore is just pulling this shit out of his ass.

Shorter Kilgore: "I got nothin'."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Bingo!! (4.00 / 2)
Has Kilgore ever worked as a campaign manager? .. Al From?  Where do they get off on this "the candidate has to move to the center" crap? ... How do those two explain away Feingold's increasingly larger victories in Wisconsin(When Wisconsin has been considered a swing state the past few elections)?

[ Parent ]
"the candidate has to move to the center" crap (4.00 / 3)
Crap indeed! What they really mean is "move to the right." This is completely predictable from these DLC types whose paychecks come in some form or another from wealthy plutocrats. If "the center" was logically gaged by polling of where the majority of the public is on major issues, the Democratic Party would need to move left to get to the center.

The bottom line is not about "right" "left" or "center." It's about Obama (and Dems in general) cowering out of fear of bullshit attacks that are going to come whether he stands up and fights for his principles or not. It's the battered spouse symptom. He's not beating you up because of anything you did. He's beating you up because he's an asshole. Republicans are assholes. Obama needs to stop trying to not make them mad. He needs to kick them in the nuts and walk out.

miasmo.com


[ Parent ]
Excellent work, Paul. (4.00 / 4)
This is dead on:

He has, to a remarkable extent and apparently unconsciously, internalized a wide range of rightwing frames, including stereotypical images of a progressive fringe that is beyond the pale (1970s-style anti-military love-ins, anyone?)  This is why, for example, he can defend the right to dissent in a speech about patriotism, while at the same time recycling rightwing myths about how the anti-war DFHs did things "that remain[s] a national shame to this day."

I think it was you who said it appears he thinks Rambo was a documentary.  


One part I'm unsure about is how much Obama really has moved (0.00 / 0)
Ed Kilgore is not the only one to suggest that Obama has not consciously moved in any particular direction.  Nate Silver made a similar observation the other day here: http://www.fivethirtyeight.com...

Both suggest that a few events outside of Obama's control just happened to occur together, making it seem like he was making a coordinated move.

My view is somewhere in the middle.  I think that Obama is consciously moving right on some issues; but in a few months, I question whether we'll conclude that he has made a decided shift to the right overall.

Of course, I suppose this largely depends on how much of a progressive one thought Obama was in the first place.


He has moved rightward .. (4.00 / 2)
on FISA .. there is no doubt about that

[ Parent ]
Obama wussed out on FISA (4.00 / 2)
He says more or less the same thing he said before, but he is unwilling to follow through with a filibuster.  So I don't see this as a move to the right so much as just wussing out.

[ Parent ]
Why Can't It Be BOTH, Dude? (4.00 / 2)
C'mon, you know that it's both.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Worse (4.00 / 1)
moved to the right, but keeps trying to spin left.

but I actually disagree - I think he's adopted a whole new frame of reference that completely diverges from one of his central themes, no fear mongering. He now is selling the "Grave Threats" justification for any sort of mindless BS policy.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


[ Parent ]
The Gramscian ref doesnt explain the shift now (4.00 / 3)
I agree that there seems to have been a complete strategic shift in how Obama is framing himself, from ideological reformer with progressive overtones to now being in the center particular issues (and note he's increasingly framing on issues McCain is defining - patriotism, war service, vietnam). Let me run away on a tangent for second - he's not even campaigning on where he wants to take us on certain issues, he's campaigning directly to fit the mold of what he thinks is the dominant viewpoint on issues. So hes trying to convince people he is something, rather than just be something. Anyway... what I dont feel you covered Paul was the big question, which is why this shift now?

Just because he grew up in a Gramscian culture war doesn't explain the shift between primary and general campaign. Why give into these influences now, but not against Hillary?

Touching on your suggestions of mild schizophrenia, the influence is obviously not just the right wing culture, i think its pretty obvious that growing up a fatherless black kid in a white family has done much to infuse him with both an obvious incredible ability to bridge cultural views (particularly to articulate misunderstandings and subtle points of disconnection), as well as confuse the hell out of him sometimes.

But back tot he question - why the dramatic switch for the general campaign.  

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


Good Question (4.00 / 4)
I think at least two different things are going on here.  First of all, he's always had this anti-progressive phobia thing, he's just usually kept it under better control.  So what we're seeing is less something "completely different" than something akin to a figure/ground reversal--though not actually as dramatic as that.

We've seen examples of this shift before in less extreme form--how he changed from being an outspoken war critic before joining the Senate to being a milquetoast once he got there.  This relates to your penultimate paragraph, re his own personal history and ways of relating.  The milder pressure just makes him receed, the more extreme form makes him agggressively disown his progressive shadow.

The second thing that's going on is simply that he's never really run a challenging general election campaign before, so the transfition is genuinely new to him, and part of this is simply fumbling around.  It's pretty darned astonishing, when you think about it.

But, then, the same could be said about John McCain, too, despite all his much-vaunted experience.

Funny how that keeps coming up, now isn't it?

A general election where he had to do more than just show up?  What an indignity!

Funny how that keeps coming up, now isn't it?


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Lets explore his forms of reaction. (4.00 / 1)
(great analogy on the figure/ground comparison - always there just saw the other shape for awhile)

but more to why his conservative side is pulling forward now, I wonder if we can explore and strategize around this, which I've been wondering about too: "The milder pressure just makes him recede, the more extreme form makes him aggressively disown his progressive shadow."

This suggests to me as there is an Obama personality which wants to emerge. And of course we're dealing with 45 years of experience here, so retraining might be out of the question. But Obama isn't completely risk adverse. He also will take bold risks when under extreme pressure. He didn't proactively come up with his speech on race, he was in a corner, yet there he did not run for cover under a conservative umbrella. He really make an unbelievable speech. So what's the difference between that and why he completely falls down on FISA. And note, on his FISA position he was not under any pressure - being against this bill polls very well.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


[ Parent ]
These Are Very Well-Put Questions (0.00 / 0)
And if Edward R. Murrow had not been driven off the air in the 1950s, among other things, we might actually have had a pundit class that was capable of posing such questions themselves.

Which is just my gracious way of saying that I'll have to give this more thought.  I don't see any ready answer right now, but maybe others will say things that help something to emerge.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Very good points (4.00 / 6)
First of all, he's always had this anti-progressive phobia thing, he's just usually kept it under better control.  ...

The second thing that's going on is simply that he's never really run a challenging general election campaign before, so the transfition is genuinely new to him, and part of this is simply fumbling around.

These are really good points and actually give hope that the reaction from the left will have a real impact on Obama's campaign.  While I doubt he'll change on FISA next week, the flack he has gotten from it and the very public nature of Senator Obama - Please Vote NO on Telecom Immunity - Get FISA Right might have a real impact on how he runs the rest of his campaign.

I still think he is "playing it safe" more than moving to the right, per se.  It is our job to make sure that moving to the right is not playing it safe.


[ Parent ]
Excellent Clarification, Mark! (4.00 / 3)
It is our job to make sure that moving to the right is not playing it safe.

I'm right there with you, bro!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
More on Father and gender influence (0.00 / 0)
I'm not up on the deeper influences on Obama growing up, but its worth starting with some of the common known ones.

First no father, so automatically this suggest that he will lean toward "feminine" forms of negotiation and aggression. In the interest of risking being sexists I'm going to expand on this a little. I'd like not to cause a debate on gender roles, I'm merely looking for deeper incite into understanding Obama so that we might find best ways to influence him. So - feminine forms of negotiation seem to tend toward conciliation in favor of adverting violence. I think media and character violence would probably substitute well here. However feminine forms of negotiation also center on securing basic needs - food, shelter, money - and especially on raising youth. So a fiscal responsibility argument may win in a left-right if it has real effects on people's lives. Perhaps we see this in the recent embrace of using religious groups to distribute community services. How else might feminine life management tactics influence him?

Obama frequently references his grandmother - so feminine influence seems especially strong.

I find it totally fascinating as well that Obama had such a strong relationship with Wright - clearly a surrogate father figure. And then was brutally betrayed by him and Obama knifed him. An amazing Oedipal moment played on TV! I took it as a pretty healthy sign that Obama was able to kill the father for his own survival. It strikes me that that might have been an important moment in bringing his gender influences into balance.

But Obama strikes me as still immature in how to use his masculine powers (I'll start defining this as aggression, posturing, violence, food winner). Fragging Clark and MoveOn recently, unnecessarily shows he's not quite clear on how much killing power he has and how to use it carefully. What are other examples of him showing his masculine influence and his sophistication at wielding what he's learned?

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


[ Parent ]
I See the Wright Thing Very Differently (4.00 / 2)
The media distortions aside, Wright is not that unusual in the black church.

It strikes me that Obama had really failed at some level to find an integration of how to honor the critical (in every sense of the word) role of the oppositional black church tradition--the same tradition that Martin Luther King came out of, so it's by no means marginal.  This is something he should have done years ago, and did not do.  That failure on his part was a failure of maturation.

Of course, it's a failure of maturation from the point of young adulthood onward.  The GOP, OTOH, is all about failures of maturation from third grade through high school, with an occassional reversion to the potty training phase.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Specifically Wrights appearance at the NPC (0.00 / 0)
Wright's style and words were not that much of a problem for Obama - and he handled it with grace in the race speech. There he put it in context. But Obama and Wright know that's not something to re-do right when everyone is watching. Yet Wright went to the National Press Club and simply undid everything Obama had done to defend him.

I'm not disagreeing that Obama didn't fully take on honoring the role of the opposition black church tradition - but I imagine most leaders at such churches would not expect him to and that avoiding the risks of trying to do so to win the Presidency would outweigh the generational benefit of opening a national dialog about it.

What I am saying is that in terms of how Obama perceives influencers based on gender he's had a wild ride. And being able to kill the father after being abandon by the father early strikes me as healthy - within the context that Obama did first came to the father's defense, and put himself at risk doing so, and then only after a bitter betrayal did Obama rid himself of him.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


[ Parent ]
But Again (0.00 / 0)
call it my old-fashioned post-modernist ways, but I'm still stuck on what didn't happen before the drama played out in public.

Just can't help it, I guess.  You grow up reading 17th-19th century novels as a kid in the mid-20th century, then discover Joseph Heller, John Barth, Luis Borges, Philip K. Dick as a teenager, you're just going to think this way for the rest of your life, I suppose.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
"why the dramatic switch for the general campaign" (0.00 / 0)
This is the classic move for all candidates, is it not? Move left in the primary, move right in the general? (or vice versa for Republicans.)

miasmo.com

[ Parent ]
Yeah, But... (0.00 / 0)
(1) The idea is (a) not to call attention to it and (b) still to run on the issues you're strongest on.

(2) Not when the other guy's party is barely more popular than the Ebola virus.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I'm not defending it. (0.00 / 0)
I just don't think the motivation is a mystery. It's standard conventional wisdom. I disagree with it, but I'm not scratching my head wondering what they're thinking.

miasmo.com

[ Parent ]
I Know You're Not Defending It (0.00 / 0)
I'm simply explaining why (a) life is a bit more complicated than Politics 101, and (b) life in June/July 2008 is even a bit more complicated than life usually is.

Now, given that this team just won a very unexpected primary victory--about as close to beating an incumbent President as anyone's likely to see--it's truly astonishing to see them revert so mechanistically and clumsily to Politics 101 thinking.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Where to begin? (4.00 / 2)
Kilgore made several valid points.  One is that Obama isn't "moving to the center" so much as emphasizing different issues because now his opponent isn't Hillary Clinton but John McCain.  So the debate isn't about the fine points of health care reform any more, for example.  Moreover, Obama isn't "moving" so much as emphasizing themes that have been there all along, and that many people here criticized.  His faith-based ideas have been there since he was an organizer, and are much of what attracted him to Trinity Church in the first place, as he's said all along.  This is a big part of him, not something he trotted out for "Versailles."  Many people here just don't like it, but it certainly isn't put on because of polling.  Same with his position on the two Supreme Court cases--they are positions that are already in his books.  Moreover, I thought folks on the left had agreed 4 years ago that it is best to drop the issue of gun control.  Now it is dropped for good, and he can appeal to Westerners on issues that matter, like oil drilling, protection of the environment etc.

Second, Obama was born in 1962.  He literally was a child during the '60s, and for the '60s and '70s he lived abroad and in Hawai'i, a largely Asian-dominated culture.  He just isn't part of those culture wars that shaped so many of us here, and I really do think he has a great deal of impatience with the constant refighting of those battles.  Again, this is something integral to him, and not some poll-tested affectation.  And it is a great part of his appeal to younger people, who must be cringing at the prospect of having the Vietnam War dominate yet another election when we face global climate collapse, economic fractures, the rise of China and all the rest of the issues that will dominate their future.

He isn't a '60s progressive, and he is never going to be. He's a presidential candidate trying a 50-state strategy, which means running in a lot of places Dem candidates don't usually run.  But he is generally left of center on most issues, and he is serious about trying to find solutions to the problems that face us.  It's a good thing to try to move him on FISA, which is the one position he's taken that I really don't like.  But much of the rest of this is middle-aged people refighting the battles of our youth.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


This is simply not true (4.00 / 2)
He just isn't part of those culture wars that shaped so many of us here,

Read my comment below: Obama was deeply influenced by the culture wars of the sixties.


[ Parent ]
I stand corrected (0.00 / 0)
Thanks.  But my point was more that I think he is trying to go beyond that rather than vindicate a position he held then.  He has the ability, as seen in that passage, to try to understand what the other side is saying.  Is he reflecting his grandparents here, I wonder?  

I think it is important to understand the appeal of Nixon and Reagan (even as we reject their policies and tactics) if we are to avoid having progressive reforms go aground.  I was at Berkeley from 1964-1966 and went through the Reagan years here, and the Nixon years, and the Reagan years.  I found Rick Perstein's (much more sophisticated) attempt to document and understand the Right's rise in "Nixonland" very instructive.  There is a way to acknowledge the resentments of the people Reagan spoke to without capitalizing on and intensifying their resentments, but including them in the movement for progressive change.  I think that's what Obama's after.

But it is also very important that he have critics on the Left to push the debate in that direction.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
Obama BUYS Into The Nixon/Reagan Rhetoric (4.00 / 2)
This is something quite different from understanding what they're speaking to.  They are speaking to creating fears out of uncertainties.  And Obama is all about accepting those terms of debate, rather than challenging them.

And accepting the terms of debate is the very essence of surrender in the Gramscian culture war.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
In Addition To What David Said (4.00 / 2)
First off, the culture wars didn't begin in the 60s, and they weren't waged with the greatest intensity then, either.

For example, as I'll talk about more this weekend, the whole narrative about protesters spitting on vets didn't really get going till the 1980s--right about the time that Obama was saying to himself, on one level, "Yeah, Ronald Reagan, that's the ticket."

Second, most people have a mistaken notion what they're talking about when they refer to "culture wars"--and Obama is Exhibit "A" in this regard.

The Gramscian reference is deliberate, because Gramsci makes it quite clear in a way that others do not: It is a war over control of cultural insittuions, which in turn serve to define reality within their spheres of influence, and thus to act in concert with one another to shape broader cultural realities through accepted narratives that represent ideology in drag as common sense.

Because Obama makes the commonplace mistake of mis-identifying the culture war with some prominent narrative elements employed by the right, he is totally clueless re how to actually fight in a war that he cannot escape: You do not escape an invasion by surrendering to it.

Third, Kilgore's stuff about emphasizing different things is bogus.  Of course, no one expects the same sorts of arguments in the general election, over differences between various Democratic alternatives, be they health care or getting out of Iraq.  But the very essence of waging a winning general election campaign is running on offense, and that means defining the issue landscape, which one does largely by talking about the issues that draw people to your party in the first place.

Of course, one does not do this exclusively.  But it is what one leads with, and what one returns to again, and again.  This is not even the sort of "brand" logic that Arianna was talking about, it's the context in which the brand logic lives, making its logically transition from primary to general election.

Fourth, I believe that I was one of the most outspoken critics of the notion of Obama as a progressive in the post-60s sense, when I argued that he was much more accurately seen as an early 20th-century progressive, which is quite a different animal.  However, this still doesn't negate the generally center-left tilt of his politics (his ~90% Progressive Punch score, for example), which he is clearly running away from in recent weeks.

More TK this weekend.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Interesting to be placed (4.00 / 9)
in the role of Obama's defender, although in truth I didn't mean to suggest that there weren't deeper and more disturbing forces at work.

Whereas Bill Clinton's centrism was borne of simple animal pragmatism, Obama seems to have a genuine aversion to the left--not merely to its political positions but to its culture and alleged values, as embodied in his mind by the sixties. Whether it's his recent impugning of the patriotism of antiwar protestors or his blasting "Tom Hayden" Democrats, he reserves at least as much scorn for the antiwar left as for the pro-war right.

Obama himself has written fairly openly about his aversion to "sixties-style" liberalism, an aversion that has oedipal overtones. People should read the Audacity of Hope. I'm going to link to a review on a social website because I can't find these quotes elsewhere, but they are characterized more or less correctly.

Unpleasantly enough, in The Audacity of Hope, Obama's ideological attack on New Deal liberalism takes the form of a rejection of his own mother's outlook. He first explains his own "curious [i.e., essentially hostile] relationship to the sixties" and goes on to refer condescendingly to his mother as "an unreconstructed liberal" and to "her incorrigible, sweet-natured romanticism...her heart a time capsule filled with images of the space program, the Peace Corps and Freedom Rides, Mahalia Jackson and Joan Baez."

A page later, Obama is offering this remarkable tribute: "All of which may explain why, as disturbed as I might have been by Ronald Reagan's election in 1980...I understood his appeal.... Reagan spoke to America's longing for order, our need to believe that we are not simply subject to blind, impersonal forces but that we can shape our individual and collective destinies, so long as we rediscover the traditional virtues of hard work, patriotism, personal responsibility, optimism, and faith."

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2...

So yes he's internalized rightwing tropes and pieties, most dangerously the belief that somehow the left doesn't believe in hard work, patriotism, personal responsibility, optimism, and faith."

I'm thinking, for example, of his speech about religion, in which he chided Dems for allegedly being too secular, for fearing to speak about religion because we supposedly believe the First Amendment doesn't allow it.

And notice how Obama has rolled out his general election campaign: with speeches and ads talking about "hard work, patriotism, personal responsibility, optimism, and faith."

God knows that New Left did some stupid stuff--it's fine to criticize them---but as someone who sees himself as a descendant of the New Left, and the netroots as its progeny, I can't abide Obama's attack on it.

I'll take the New Left over a New Liberal any day of the week.



I'm Not Sure How This Qualifies As Defending Obama (4.00 / 4)
but I agree 100%.  It's a most appropos observation.

And, of course, the New Left was about nothing if not the capacity of individuals to participate in shaping their destiny.  It was called "participatory democracy," and it was right there in the Port Huron statement.

As that old leftist Yogi Berra famously said, "You could look it up."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
What was the Left? (0.00 / 0)
One of the real casualties of the '60s-'70s was the lumping together in the popular mind of the political Left with the Hippy Left.  The political Left certainly did believe in hard work and personal responsibility, and patriotism of the higher kind (trying to make America fulfill its ideals) but got conflated in the popular mind with Hippies and even more unfairly with the kind of hippy-dippy '70s adult weekend adventuring with swinging, drugs, New Age woo-woo stuff of every imaginable kind.  

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
There Are Several Different Things Conflated Here (4.00 / 4)
One is the much older cutlural left/political left dichotomy that goes back well into the 19th Century at least.  Victoria Woodhull is an example of someone who straddled that divide a full century before the time period you point to.

The second, of course, is that even then Woodhull was attacked for the precisely the same reasons.

Third, is that this is precisely how the right wants to shape the arguments involved.

Fourth, is that this is historically inevitable.  It represents an inevitable bursting of the bonds of both hierarchical and communal authority over the individual.  And it's only natural that hierarchy should try to reassert itself by claiming identity with community, even as it does virtually everything in its power to destroy community.  (The hippy movment was nothing if not a rebellion against social atomization and in favor of re-creating community.  Re-casting it as an attack on community was absurd beyond belief.)

Fifth, all the above is overshadowed by the simple fact that what happened in the 60s was historically unprecedented--both the legalized subordination of blacks and women was formally done away with at its core.  There was simply no precedent for this in ~4,000 years of recorded human history.

That's big stuff and everything else was truly puny by comparison.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Excellent comment, David. (4.00 / 4)
I do think it is part of his rejection of his mother and her life choices.  I hate psychoanalysis from afar, but his constant return to a false picture of the 60s suggests there is something more at work here than simple triangulation, Obama style.  The 60s are over for most people, except Barack Obama.  McCain is not talking about the past as much as Obama is.  Why?

He was primarily raised by his grandparents after he was 10 or so.  Who knows how a fatherless child may have felt abandoned and developed a picture based on his own personal feelings that was at odds with the real historical record?

In any event, it's a false construct that he may use for both political and personal purposes.  He not only "he's internalized rightwing tropes and pieties," but he spreads them, giving his endorsement to them.  In doing so, he marginalizes left thought and leftists, just as Nixon and Reagan did.  


[ Parent ]
This Is Good (4.00 / 2)
I was not focusing so much on the individual psychology, so I appreciate being redirected toward it, and I find these comments quite helpful.

It does indeed help to clarify why he is so obsessed with the 60s, all the while projecting this obsession onto others.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Obama is not moving to the center (0.00 / 0)
Obama started at the center, he is moving to the right, the far right.

None of the above (4.00 / 1)
Obama's current stances, in my view, are best understood as the outcome of deliberate poll-driven electoral coalition building.

He looks at the polls about the stances of the members of the various voting blocs and campaign contributors he thinks he needs to get elected and then says what he thinks will drive their members to the voting booth to pull the lever with his name on it.

For example, judging by some of his recent statements, such blocs include

- Pro-Israel Jewish voters in Florida;
- Evangelicals who have been in the GOP camp for the past 8 years but are disgruntled with the party and McCain;
- Super-patriots who support McCain because of his war record and militarist bravado;
- Former supporters of Hillary Clinton whose votes he wants;
- Gays and lesbians;
- Pro-NAFTA free traders

He is all over the map trying to pull out the votes of these voting blocs through pandering statements and by not allowing what he thinks are strident attacks against their favorite political cows.

Right now, Obama does not stand for anything other than saying whatever he has to say to get the members of these critical voting blocs to vote for him. End of story.

He is not trying to facilitate the political re-alignment of the country that is waiting in the wings, or resuscitate the  Democratic Party.

We progressives may be horrified at what we are seeing, which is poll follower-ship rather than leadership or statesmanship. But this is what you get from our stunted electoral system, namely stunted politicians, both of which are an embarrassment to democracy.

So what else is new?

The only thing we can do besides launching stinging verbal attacks against intolerable pandering and ultimately voting for the "least worst" of the two presidential candidates we are stuck with, is to beat the bushes to get real progressive elected to Congress who will eventually be numerous enough to call the shots regardless of who is in the White House.

   


Except, The Polls Show That He Doesn't Need To Do This (4.00 / 1)
Hence, I'm driven to search for something more.

Such contradictory pandering actually makes things harder for him in the long run. As Huffington says, it erodes his brand.  If he was behind, or the race were really close, one could undertand it.  But that's not the case.

So why?

Note, I'm not disputing your premises here.  I'm just saying that something more is needed to explain what we're witnessing.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Caution and Preparation (0.00 / 0)
If I read your response to Nancy B. correctly, you are implying that IF Obama were not winning as handily as it appears at the moment, then you might see some logic to his "tilting right", (or "playing to the middle").

Perhaps his campaign wants to maintain his advantage by being cautious.  That is, campaigning as if they were NOT winning, and employing these tactics in a "pre-emptive" way.
I'm not saying I agree with such a scheme, but in a situation where "this is Obama's election to lose", having just observed the "inevitable" nomination of Hillary Clinton go down the tubes, and seeing McCain claw his way back from near-elimination in the primaries, I can understand how caution might seem like a good idea.

Preparation.  They may assume that, although they are winning TODAY, the situation may change tomorrow and then these moves, right/center/or wherever, will become more necessary.  Its always easier to change your position (or shift your focus) if you have already taken a step, or two, in that direction at a earlier date, i.e. at a time when it was not "necessary".  So, perhaps he's setting himself up to make these moves more prominently should future conditions make them more critical.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
So, Back To The "Scared Of Their Own Shadow" Theory (4.00 / 1)
So many theories, so little time!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I prefer the "Embrace your Shadow" Theory (4.00 / 1)
But, maybe the world is not ready for a fully individuated American President.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
I Don't Think Obama's Anywhere NEAR That! (0.00 / 0)
I'm not sure what map system you're working from, but in mine, ala Kegan, embracing the shadow comes at level 5, that's where dualities are experienced as co-constructive and paradox is seen as a source of potential insight.  So seeing the shadow and self as co-creative, and being able to embrace the shadow without being destroyed by it only becomes a real (as opposed to fantasized) possibility at this stage.

Meanwhile, I've become increasingly convinced that Obama is operating at Kegan's Level 3, which is really disappointing for someone who's his age with his education level.  He really should be Level 4, at least, and transitioning to Level 5, if not fully there already.  But this accounts for his strong tendency to accept the frames of society, rather than challenging them from a position of his own authority.  He is very adept at manipulating those frames, which can lead to the false impression that he is authoring them at times.  But I've become increasingly convinced that this is not the case.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I did not mean to imply that I think Obama (0.00 / 0)
has.

While a fully realized individual might make a good national leader, I doubt they could survive the campaign and get elected.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Focus (0.00 / 0)
Be careful when analyzing which stage someone is in to pay attention to what that person focuses on.  If something is of lessor importance to a person than it is to you, they'll appear to be at a lower stage.

I suspect Obama is stage 4 or 5 on that which matters to him the most; typically process.

I'd also warn about "his strong tendency to accept the frames of society", as society is always local to an individual.  The accepted frames in academia are different than the accepted frames of Washington, for example.  (The great thing about standards: so many to choose from!)

Sometimes if feels like your criticisms are from a dot on the X axis questioning why a dot on the Y axis never moves.


[ Parent ]
Although I DO Have Some Doubts (0.00 / 0)
Those who've studied this more intensely and close-up than I report that people rarely show much variation in their cognitive levels across different fields.  It's more like your vision--if you've got 20/20, you'll have 20/20 even when looking at something you've never paid attention to before.  And looking at something more intently won't improve your vision, either.

As for moving in different circles, this certainly can fake you out.  But generally, when someone's gotten as high profile as Obama, one should see clear signs of self-authorship in generating frames, for example. Obama really does seem quite adept at recognizing frames, and avoiding ones that would trap him when engaged by interlocutors.  But I have not seen the signs of self-authorship--in fact, their lack has become increasingly hard to miss.

Could you, perhaps, point out some counter-examples?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Authorship, Kegan stages 3 and 4 (0.00 / 0)
All I know about the Kegan stages comes from the google hive-mind, but I think a case can be made that Obama's entire narative, from his books to his speeches on race and patriotism, are about transitioning from stage 3 to stage 4.

(The following quotes hand-typed from here.)

At the third order, the self is subject to authority.  Traditions are closely adhered to.  The self is its beliefs, values and roles.  Third-order consciousness is lived by its plot, unaware of the stories by which it is scripted.  At the third order, the self is the ego.  There is no perspective on the simulation, so there is no way the simulation can be seen as simulation.

That doesn't sound much like Obama, but that perspective is referenced by Obama all the time.  But the following sounds just like the narrative Obama constantly taps into:

With the fourth order the self is its own author, similar to the way the writer of dramas invents plots and scripts with the materials at hand (albeit culturally and linguistically determined).  The self can be distinct from its story.  The self is reflectively conscious of how it can alter and invent aspects of the simulation.  The self may experience what Kegan called the loss of community or the loss of "gods" as it becomes conscious of its freedom and lack of determination by social conditioning.  Beliefs are taken as objects by an identity as subject no longer owned by social roles and values.

Obama treats the frames you complain about as objects, not subjects.  That alone implies stage 4.  It is almost as if his goal is to bring America along with him from one stage to the next.

I know this isn't really answering your question, but it is where my research for the answer led me.  There is probably a good diary in here somewhere, comparing Obama's speeches and books to these stages.


[ Parent ]
Playing to not lose (4.00 / 1)
In basketball, it is fairly common for one team to get a big lead on another at some point in the game.  You would think that the winning team would then just continue doing whatever they were doing, but typically they don't -- the change mode from trying to win to trying not to lose.

They winning team starts playing conservatively and tries only to protect the lead instead of increase it.

Ironically, the team with the lead often feels the most pressure, because they are now expected to win.  I've seen the  same thing in tennis and other sports.

I think this is what we are seeing right now.  Obama no longer is playing to win, he is playing to not lose.  And that is a bad strategy.


[ Parent ]
It's No Fun To Watch, Either (0.00 / 0)
"Lame" does not begin to describe it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
No time for stunted politicians and stunted politics (0.00 / 0)
Perhaps Nancy is correct in that his folks are simply trying to cobble together positions/statements that they think will appeal to specific blocs and the all-important contributors within those various blocs --not the American people as a whole.   I don't know enough about conventional polling vs. micro-polling, but it might account for her observation that he is indeed all over the map.

Of course, I was never convinced that the Obama brand was ever implicitly progressive in the framing...I'm with kanzeon on that.  It always seemed to me at least more like a slick affirmation-filled marketing campaign (on the most basic level, old: the Clintons--PC vs. new:  Obama--Mac), wholly reflective of the consumerist/self-actualizing Zeitgeist, certainly not intuitively progressive (as much as we would like to believe, the two are not the same).   The problem of course is that those good feelings tend to wear off really fast, especially when we figure out that latest and greatest really is just a re-packaging of the same old same old.   This is not a problem when selling the latest consumer trends, it is quite alarming when considering the current political landscape and mood of the people.  

Too much is at stake in this election and I really believe Americans at the gut level want much more (as you note Paul the polling on the whole seems to support that).  That could be the problem with the "brand." It is just not enough.  Up to this point little thought needed to be paid to the substance and actual ideas...the marketing and superior management of the primary/caucus calendar was sufficient.  It's now a different game.  And Obama thus far is choosing to play it the conventional, squishy way.    Ideas and principles might actually matter this time around.  If Mr. Change and New Politics can't provide them then what are we left with?


[ Parent ]
I Think Obama Is Progressive, Sort of (4.00 / 1)
And his voting record is indicative of that.  But I think what you're pointing to is the lack of really knowing what it would look like to lead in that direction.  That's where he really does seem to be clueless.  And that's where all the "slick affirmation-filled marketing campaign" stuff comes in.

A further complication of all this is Sarah Posner's point about his relationship with T.D. Jakes, a "Word of Faith" televangelist, whose message is inherently much more compatible with Reaganism than anything progressive.

Jakes is all the way down with the "slick affirmation-filled marketing campaign" approach to just about everything.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Progressive, sort of (0.00 / 0)
probably completely necessary to win the kind of elections he's had up to this point...and that's alright as far as it goes...

But I think what you're pointing to is the lack of really knowing what it would look like to lead in that direction.  That's where he really does seem to be clueless.

And this is where I honestly continue to be flummoxed when it comes to Huffington and Lakoff and the all the prominent others who still insist that Obama successfully crafted an implicitly progressive brand during the primary. I really think some might be confusing a vague form of new consumerism/self-helpism (thank to Bruh for aiding my thinking on this...) with progressivism.    I'm not trying to be argumentative, I really am trying to get this.  I've haven't seen it.  

Still the only real question at this point is whether collectively we can force him to actually trust more often that progressive heart so many others are convinced he possesses.


[ Parent ]
It Goes Back To Empathy (4.00 / 1)
Obama wants to do things to help people. That's what's at the core of a progressive philosophy, and that's what Lakoff is honing in on.  While I agree with the distinction you're making, it's a more narrow one than what Lakoff is focused on.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Can you comment... (0.00 / 0)
How is supporting Ho Chi Mihn and Fidel Castro "participatory democracy?"  That seems awfully close to Third World Stalinism to one.  One is saying this as being close to both the New Deal and democratic socialism, and who does not like either Ronald Reagan or anti-communism.  

You Forget That Both We VERY Popular Figures At First (4.00 / 2)
The reason we subverted the re-unification of Vietnam was because we knew that Mihn would win in a landslide.

It's impossible to know for certain, of course, but given his whole life history, it's quite credible that had the US simply accepted that, he would have become a quite benign elected democratic leader.  The OSS officers who worked with him during WWII seemed to think this was the way to go, too, it later came out.  So unless you think they were Stalinists, too.

Similarly, with Castro, it's extremely difficult to gauge what he would have been like, had he not been forced into an extremely defensive position.  He did many promising things in the early years that most folks nowadays have no knowledge of.  The simple act of staying in Harlem when he came to the UN was an example of how he was read by the anti-establishment forces in ways that simply over-rode virtually anything that the M$M might have to say about him--much of which was actually quite rightly rejected as lies.

That same problem of M$M lying helped Stalin out, too, for a very long time.  With so many lies told over and over again about the Soviet Union, people were very reluctant to believe when some of the negative stories turned out to be true.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
This thread is awesome. Thanks Paul (4.00 / 1)
I just want to thank you again, Paul, for amplifying your thoughts and responding to the Kilgore piece at the same time. I have found the process very illuminating.


Obama appears to be moving to the center ... (0.00 / 0)
because that's what he believes. Why does everything have to be a political calculation?

Because It Doesn't Match His Voting Record (0.00 / 0)
Forget that National Journal crap.  But check DW-Nominate and Progressive Punch.

It's obvious that he's not a conservative (i.e. "centrist") Democrat.  So why does he play one on TV?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
But some don't think he's just playing one (0.00 / 0)
In my last comment here, I'll just point out that Kilgore (and perhaps the DLC crowd generally) seem to believe that Obama is simply being sincere now (whether or not his approach has changed since the end of the primaries).

And this reminds me of something Obama said about himself to the effect that people tended to view him differently and project different qualities upon, according to their own predispositions, a trait which I think many successful politicians share (for better or worse).

Whatever actually lurks in Obama's heart and head, I believe it is the assumption that he is now being insincere that particularly galls progressives, perhaps even more than the actual merits of his positions.


[ Parent ]
By his own admission not everything he does is based on what (4.00 / 3)
he believes. Look at how he describes his NAFTA rhectoric during the primary and looking at it now. It simply doesn't matter up with principled decision making.

[ Parent ]
Yes, that was a particularly (0.00 / 0)
damning admission that undercut his entire narrative as the change agent, non-politician.  

[ Parent ]
It's also damning of the "trust him" they know what they are doing (4.00 / 3)
argument. No one who knows what he's doing says something like that. Right now I think they are having difficulties shifting from the primary to the GE because in order to win the primary- let's face it- they made shit up and offered people self help book speeches.

[ Parent ]
More hamfisted analysis (4.00 / 1)
First, Arianna again.  She said in her column that appealling to fickle moderates was a losing strategy, that it was a new strategy for Obama, and that it conflicted with his message of change and inspiration.  None of these statements make much sense.  You can try to lay a patina of Lakoffian analysis over what she said, but it is her job to state clearly what she said, and in fact I doubt that Lakoff ever said anything like appealling to fickle moderates is a losing strategy.  She complained THAT he was appealling to this fickle crowd, not about HOW he was doing so.

Second, as to Obama:

a.  It's extremely hard to decipher what he is doing, because his most controversial statements (among the left) have been reactive.  He has needed to respond to important legislation, two Supreme Court decisions, the dust up over Wes Clark, etc.  Obama knows 1. that the map is in flux 2. McCain's strategy is nascent and 3. that he is not firmly defined in the public's mind.  Any "liberal" statement will be seized upon by the right to define him.  I think that he is in a transitional mode, as far as strategy, and it is smart to play it safe until he marshals his resources for the next phase.  I think the notion that he already has a brand for the general is wrong.  But, even moreso, I think that taking these reactive decision as a model of any kind is premature.

b.  I appreciate the larger, family-based model of commuication that Lakoff is disucssing, but it is hard to apply it in the cases that Obama has been confronted with.  Executing child rapists can appeal to a law and order mindset or a nurturing mindset.  Similarly, increased surveillance to catch evil terrorists can be framed in both models.  However, opposing alleged law and order measures on constitutional or libertarian grounds can always be characterized as favoring the terrorists or the child killers, which is offensive to both models.  I think that issues of defending constitutional rights in the face of concrete actions allegedly taken against admitted threats to society are just hard to frame to moderates.

I think his characterization of the sixties may be a right wing frame, but it is also his typical windowdressing: moving beyond the past, everyone has a point and something to contribute, people shouldn't fight so much, etc.  

c.  I think his proactive actions are more telling of strategy - like Obama's gratuitious swipe at moveon.  It supports my impression that Obama's approach to politics pays no heed whatsoever to principles or loyalty.  (That isn't necessarily a criticism).  I never saw the intuitive framing brilliance from Obama in the primary.  I certainly never saw Obama articulate a "progressive worldview" or any worldview.  He isn't a "worldview" kind of guy.  I see the same Obama today that I saw in the primary - he just has a different opponent.  


Bored Now (0.00 / 0)
You are trying to make this into the last diary.  But it's not.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
The only way this is like the last diary - (4.00 / 1)
is in your inability or unwillingness to engage in debate and analysis.

Which makes it like the last diary, and the one before that, and the one before that.


[ Parent ]
Your Attempt To Drag In Arianna (0.00 / 0)
was intellectually dishonest.

The rest of your comment is either Versailles CW, or simply not worth the effort of responding to.  Mildly interesting at best.

Alfred North Whitehead famously said, "It's more important for an idea to be interesting, than for it to be true."

Some of what you say may well be true.  But I just don't find it all that interesting.

Others may disagree, of course.  And maybe I'm missing something.  Time will tell.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Substance (4.00 / 1)
It wasn't dishonest to "drag in" Arianna.  In fact, you mentioned her, claimed she was Lakoffian, when in fact there is she is miles off from Lakoff, and is factually wrong.  I consider distinguishing truth from fiction essential.

You have an opinion, but there isn't any meat on it.  What, pray tell, is the Lakoffian response to the recent Supreme Court decisions?  Is there a way to take a position against the death penalty for child rape that would have appealed to moderates?  How about FISA?  Is there a maternal family model that will sail above the potential "coddling criminals" objection?

You seem to perceive that Obama conducted an intuitive Lakoffian symphony during the primary, but recently lost his way.  That could be the case, but what is the evidence?  Look at the comments on this board.  No one here is politically ignorant, but there is a diversity of opinion on just what Obama, in essence, is.  Some see him as a liberal saddled by old paradigms.  Some say he is a conservative.  Some think he is an idealist, and perhaps a touch naive.  Some see him as essentially pragmatic. I could go to any comment thread here, or on any political board, and find a dozen different perceptions, not only of Obama's style, but of who he is. With this diversity of opinion on what he is in essence, how can you assert your theory without detailed support?

Your Whitehead quote is accurate about your approach, but it isn't much to be proud of.  Your problem seems to be that you love theories, and love those who agree with you, so you ignore the need to support your case by specifics, and grant wide leeway to those who agree with you, and simply call names at those who don't.  Arianna made very specific claims, which are UNsupportable.  You ultimately agree with her conclusions, for reasons which aren't by any means necessarily wrong.  But you lack the integrity to note that she is simply, obviously wrong and you have no specifics for your view.  If Obama should stand firm on FISA, how exactly should he do so?  Is there language he used in the primary that he isn't using now?  How is his characterization on the 60s today in any way different than his comments in the primary about the Republicans as the party of ideas, or adopting the Republican frame on social security?  There may be a clear difference that I simply missed.  But the fact that, when I consider the specifics, I see no pattern to Obama's positioning doesn't mean I'm CW or Versailles.  It means I demand proof, and I'm not in love with my own bullshit, and won't praise others' bullshit just because they come to the same conclusion.  Nothing is less interesting to me than bullshit.  

Thanks for the acknowledgment that you dislike truth and fact based analysis.  That was honest of you.


[ Parent ]
More Lies (0.00 / 0)
It wasn't dishonest to "drag in" Arianna.  In fact, you mentioned her, claimed she was Lakoffian, when in fact there is she is miles off from Lakoff, and is factually wrong.  I consider distinguishing truth from fiction essential.

I mentioned her, but did not build my argument on her.  In fact, I metnioned her in order to provide context and explain why I was not building my argument on her.  I have listened to her and read her for years, and actually spoken to her before about Lakoff and his influence on her, so I do have some foundation for my reading of her.  But I know there's a world of difference between what counts as persuasive to me individually and what counts as public evidence.  Which is why I both mention her, and do not build my argument on what she wrote.

I know this kind of subtlety is lost on the likes of you, but I am hardly about to have your sort of incompetent misreadings dictate what I write.

You have an opinion, but there isn't any meat on it.  What, pray tell, is the Lakoffian response to the recent Supreme Court decisions?  Is there a way to take a position against the death penalty for child rape that would have appealed to moderates?  How about FISA?  Is there a maternal family model that will sail above the potential "coddling criminals" objection?

This is a perfect example of why I'm so deeply disinterested in engaging with you.  It completely mis-represents the nature of the argument involved.  Rather than respond to the actual argument presented in Lakoff's own words, you revert to asking me questions about the applicability of Lakoff's model, phrased in misrepresentative terms--the nurturant parent model is not maternal.

The answer to such questions is, "yes, of course," and anyone who actually understood Lakoff's work would know that it is so.  Both the imposition of capital punishment for crimes other than murder, and the evisceration of the Fourth Amendment and amnesty for law-breakers are radical departures from existing canons of American law, and as such there are a wide range of arguments against them.  Given that American law is largely--though not entirely--based on liberal principles, a defense of those principles and their application in these cases is not nearly as difficult as your tone implies.

Thus, the purpose of posing such questions--particularly in loaded way they are posed--is highly suspect, to say the least, particularly since this is entirely secondary to the argument that is actually being advanced in my diary.

The reason I choose to ignore you flows directly from this.  You ignore the main thrust of the argument I actually make, pick something irrelevant to pontificate about, and insist that it be the over-riding consideratioin, when in fact it is not even germane, unless you make additional arguments which you have not actually developed.

This is, quite simply, intellectually dishonest.  And lord knows there's enough intellectual dishonesty floating around the internet that sometimes, surely, one is simply entitled to say, "Enough.  I'm not even going to dignify this one with a response."

But since you insisted on having an explanation for my disinterest in dignifying your pompous irrelevancies, now you have it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
More name calling (4.00 / 1)
I asked a very simple, direct, relevant question:

Given your analysis, what is it that Obama can do to continue implement the model he apparently was implementing previously, specifically with respect to the capital punishment and FISA issues?  

And you give a generic answer.  Gosh, the Fourth Amendment is important!  You say "it's not difficult."  But, in fact, most Democratic politicians have failed to effectively message against capital punishment and terrorism measures, frequently getting crushed by the "coddling terrorists" response.  (Or, perhaps the issue is that too many run from it, leaving the brave alone and isolated - that is lately the case, but Democrats have been bashed effectively on law and order, anti-communism, etc. for decades).  It manifestly IS a difficult question, which is why most Democratic politicians fail, and why you won't answer, other than to say there are "many" responses (although you don't have one).

You complain that the question is loaded, but frankly you can rewrite it as you please.  It's unseemly to always play the victim.  It is in no way "suspect." It is part of what Obama has been responding to - it isn't hypothetical or selected out of the context of what you are discussing. It is just a question.  Again, the broader question I am asking is simple: what would Obama say if he were consistently using the model he used before, and how is it he has changed?  Again, how, in the model you present, are his previous nods to right wing frames (eg, praising Reagan) different than those he is using now?

I can't for the life of me imagine why you would have a problem with these questions.  I can't imagine why you wouldn't find it "interesting" to explain or discuss the applications of the frames you discuss in specifics, when you have already made certain claims relating to the application of the frames in generalities.  

But let's lay to the side a charge of yours: that I am "intellectually dishonest."  This is mere name-calling.  You might have noticed that I'm not disagreeing with you.  I am stating that I have absolutely no idea what you are claiming, because your analysis is completely unmoored from any recognizable facts.  That's an honest assessment.  No facts = no argument = presumptive nonsense.  The way to cure that issue, or show this perception is mistaken is simply to add facts.  You have said that I misrepresent what you said.  Do I not preceive what you think you are saying?  Quite possibly.  But that is simply because what you are saying doesn't - again - have any substance.  It's gibberish to me.  That isn't a dishonest assessment in the least, and I very well could be wrong.  The purpose of my questions, frankly, is to understand wtf you are trying to say, in real world terms, because it isn't very plain, and your distaste at being asked for examples is very puzzling.

 


[ Parent ]
Translation: (0.00 / 0)
"Bored now" is what Paul says when he doesn't want to admit he's losing.

[ Parent ]
Obama grew up under Reagan with dominant right wing frames (4.00 / 3)
He absorbed them.  he had to learn about progressivism more intellectually.

We boomers grew up and came of age during the second great progessive era of the 20th century.....Kenndy and Johnson.  That means we absorbed a more traditional, but expanded, kind of FDR progressivsim.  

Richard Nixon passed and signed more progressive legislation from the EPA to OSHA to Medicaid, hell he had price controals even,  than much of Obama's  platform now.

So that is why when Hillary was in the primary,  I would point out that she was a 60's liberal, with a subconscious residual sense of the wider parameters that liberalism encomplassed back then. That was a touchstone for her and lots of us political boomers.   Now she changed out of the political necessity wrought by Reagan, but she knew they were changes to adjust to that era. She didn't unconsciously and uncriitically absorb Reaganism like Obama did. She is capapble of understanding the wide ambitions of progressivism. Her accomodatiopns are political not necessarily inherent to her world view.

The dilemma with Obama is he really thinks the sixties were about DFH's and that the reason the right wing hated Bill Clinton and the 90's and the reason we had so much "awful partisan politics"  is that the Clinton presidiency was the ascendence of the DFHs....and he shares their visceral distate for them...and it's why he's always trashing boomers.

My take is that we boomers actually remember what the goals, ambitions and principles of liberalism and progressivism can be.

we are going to keep having this problem with Obama...it's a function of his zeitgeist.  

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


I Know You've Said Something Like This Before (0.00 / 0)
But I don't think you've ever said it more clearly, concisely, and powerfully.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I don't see how that's anything other then flat-out age discrimination. (4.00 / 1)
The Clinton presidency brought forth NAFTA, WTO, and the end of welfare. How does any of that indicate the ascension of the DFH?

[ Parent ]
Interesting (4.00 / 1)
I think I actually agree with this.  Now, I also grew up in the 80's and probably absorbed much that Obama did.  As such, I find Obama's approach, in general, much more to my taste than what you and Paul suggest, even when I intellectually agree with the details.

What you are saying is Obama approaches liberalism from a conservative frame, one you, Paul and most liberal Boomers find inaccurate at best.

But perhaps this is exactly what is necessary.  The old frames don't work but the new frames are not really formed yet.  Sometimes you have to let a child make his own mistakes.  Perhaps the same can be said for a generation.


[ Parent ]
I grew up in the 80's, too, and I disagree with these frames. Obama, (0.00 / 0)
however, grew up in the 70's, which puts a pretty big dent in Deb Coop's argument.
   

[ Parent ]
I'm skeptical too (0.00 / 0)
I'm the same age as Obama, grew up in Hawaii too. (Outer island, public school in the coffee lands) I think Punahou could be more important to his Zeitgeist than Reagan...

[ Parent ]
Maybe I'm Being Imprecise (0.00 / 0)
But I was thinking of "grew up" in terms of gaining an adult  political sense.

And maybe that's a mistake on my part.  But something in how  debcoop put this clicked in a way that it hadn't before.

So I need to reflect on that some more.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Obama 5 years older than me (4.00 / 1)
For me, "growing up in the 80's" means high school and college.  The 1980 election was the first I ever payed attention to.  (I liked Bush in the Republican primary and John Anderson in the general election.)  I haven't read Obama's books, yet (shame on me, they are on the table) but I get the impression he didn't really think about politics until at least college, which would put 1980 as his first political year as well.

My daughter, on the other hand, is very political at 12.  Heck, she actually gave a speech at her grade school at age 4.  (Pro-Bush, to her constant embarrassment today.  Reason #3: Mom doesn't like him.  She was going through a rebellious stage.)


[ Parent ]
I grew up in DC, (0.00 / 0)
where it was very hard to ignore politics, so my perspective is probably skewed.
But I'm still wary of what sounds to me, in dep coop's argument, an awful lot like the ennobling of identity politics.  

[ Parent ]
The presidency of Jimmy Carter was the beginning of the right wing reaction (4.00 / 1)
Barack Obama was entering adulthood.  I think the 60's ended fully then...the push for progressive policies ended then.  Look at Carter's themes...they weren't political or policy driven....they were personal...about him as a person.

One of the things the right started to do (and I remember arguing this point at the time with my friends who eventually went to work for the Manhattan Institute ...a right wing think tank....) was to shift the narrative on what caused societal problems from an institutional/social frame to a much more personal/individual frame.  Which of course meant that the fixes had to be personal and not social or political.

Reagan's famous question in counterpoint to JFK's charge.  

"Are YOU (not we) better off now than you were 4 years ago?"...
compare that to
"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

Jimmy Carter acceded to right wing ideas on many policy fronts....deregulation was an important one....which has had much more impact than is usually thought...because it undermines the whole idea that government is there to help and protect you, not just to control you.

My take here was less clear to me before the primary ended because while I felt it in my gut....I didn't have the evidence. It would make sense in terms of tactics to undercut Bill's presidency as a way to undercut her.  I didn't know how much was tactics or how much was real. (I had problems with Bill's presidency as well)  

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Well, that's a interesting and , I think, largely valid examination, (0.00 / 0)
but it just doesn't legitimize generational-based voting.

The Clintons did much, after all, to undermine those institutional/social frames. Reagan himself came into adulthood at the time of the New Deal. And generations of course shift politically. Political identification just hasn't shown itself to remain stagnant and fixed in generational terms.


[ Parent ]
I'm basically Obama's age (0.00 / 0)
And while I agree that some of his language suggests he has bought into certain GOP talking points, I don't know that it follows he believes it all.

This simply could be a method of communicating and trying to get past such old liberal/conservative battles.  In other words, maybe he'd say that he's adopting the language most use - even if it's imprecise or historically inaccurate - just as a method of speaking to people on their own terms.


[ Parent ]
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